Time and time again, I see it...Universalists trying their utmost to convince some phoney, hateful so called Christian holding to their silly man-made doctrines and wishing HELL on anyone who disagrees with them or their dog.
NOW...
It is VERY clear that the early church believed in Universal Salvation.
It is VERY clear that hell doesn't exist.
It is VERY clear that Jesus is the saviour of ALL men.
Tell them once and leave them to it I say...Why spend your time in endless debates with someone who probably has nothing better to do than argue with you?
The point I am REALLY trying to make is this...
...Instead of wasting your time in an argument you will never win (because they really don't want to know the truth, (lets face it)), why not instead spend your time in shareing the precious life-giving gospel with those with good hearts and with ears blessed enough to receive it?
All the time we spend argueing with people who have NO interest in hearing the truth, is all the time we could have been speaking to receptive ears that WANT to hear the truth and bringing them to Christ.
...Warn a foolish man once, shake the dust of your feet and all that.
There are thousands of ears out their waiting to hear this glorious message. Let's share it with them and not waste too much time on Mr and Mrs Hellfire.
:bgdance:
I tend to debate with those preaching eternal torment only in public places - because, in such a situation, those watching the debate can observe all of the opposition presented to that doctrine, and may (God willing) come to recognize its falsity. When in private conversation, I tend instead to leave those who believe in eternal torment alone, because I recognize how utterly futile such a conversation would be.
Quote from: Gab on October 11, 2009, 03:23:50 AM
I tend to debate with those preaching eternal torment only in public places - because, in such a situation, those watching the debate can observe all of the opposition presented to that doctrine, and may (God willing) come to recognize its falsity. When in private conversation, I tend instead to leave those who believe in eternal torment alone, because I recognize how utterly futile such a conversation would be.
Ahh, nice one Gab, I fully aggree - yes debating for the benefit of others watching is a good idea...Especially if you have enough clout (scripture knowledge etc) behind you to get your point over well in such a way as to bring others over to your points of view.
Quote from: Gab on October 11, 2009, 03:23:50 AM
I tend to debate with those preaching eternal torment only in public places - because, in such a situation, those watching the debate can observe all of the opposition presented to that doctrine, and may (God willing) come to recognize its falsity. When in private conversation, I tend instead to leave those who believe in eternal torment alone, because I recognize how utterly futile such a conversation would be.
If a debate can (slowly) convince some people in the audience why can't it convince an ET in private?
Sure, some are deaf. And when they hear something the do their best to totally igonore it.
But there are also ETs that do listen. The welcome section on this board is the proof of that. Quite often I read intro's of people who finally got their ears unplugged when they found one of Gary's writings...
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2009, 10:35:29 PM
If a debate can (slowly) convince some people in the audience why can't it convince an ET in private?
Sure, some are deaf. And when they hear something the do their best to totally igonore it.
But there are also ETs that do listen. The welcome section on this board is the proof of that. Quite often I read intro's of people who finally got their ears unplugged when they found one of Gary's writings...
I suppose it would depend on the person, but I've gotten into arguments with fervent advocates of eternal torment before, and I can't say their ears seemed to be particularly unplugged by the end of it. The biggest problem is that those who talk about ET tend not to
want to believe that all will be saved. If you don't want that, then nothing anyone can say will help.
I will personally testify that I did read articles, including Tentmaker. But I wasn't talking to anyone about anything, or observing any conversations/debates...God just led me to it one day while searching out of my own despair. The witness was available when God chose to use it. :thumbsup: I still think we should live our daily lives as a witness to God's love, and especially when specifically led, directly share the gospel.
Quick story; was approached on Walmart parking lot by a couple of young Mormon boys on mission. They shared about the book of Mormon, their belief in "prophets on the earth to lead us in what we're supposed to be doing"...God prompted me to share with them about Him being the Savior of the world, that there is no mediator between God and man except His Son, Jesus Christ. I felt I dropped by the ball though by not continuing with "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved", and "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus is Master and that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved". But God can still use what was shared.
Anyway, Paul said "Savior of all men, especially of those believing...charge these things and teach". :thumbsup: I can personally discuss, and maybe GENTLY debate, but I tend to get into a wrong spirit and attitude if I push that too far. At some point, I say share it and leave it up to God.
As far as who to share the Gospel with, have water for the thirsty, food for the hungry, medicine for the infirmed, I think Proverbs says to have alcohol for the dying, have milk for the babies, and spiritual meat to share mainly with the cultists, New Agers, etc., that would be brought to Christ by heavier truth. I get deeply concerned by folks in UR circles that the Universal Restoration is the only thing that they know and understand of the Gospel and they make the identical same mistakes as the Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe crowds with only emphasizing one or two portions of Scripture and basing their whole ministry on that. Not everyone is called to teach everything in the Bible, for sure, and nobody in UR should be quick with the judgmentalism about any segment of the Body of Christ that's called to build a different part of the House of God from what they're called to build.
But I'm as comfortable around Catholics as I'd be around Baptists, Pentecostals, Word of Faith folks, Methodists, etc., because I'm not toting only one portion of the Gospel to the exclusion and villification of the rest. I can emphasize the Bread and Cup around those that emphasize the Bread and Cup. I can emphasize the New Birth among those that emphasize the New Birth. I can emphasize the miraculous and demonstrate it among those that emphasize and demonstrate the miraculous. And I can as comfortably repreach John Wesley sermons as I would Smith Wigglesworth's and enjoy the company of Methodists while reminding them a bit about their heritage and distinctives that make them the wonderful segment of the Body that they are. Jeremiah 31:27-28 says that the Old Covenant was about overthrowing and uprooting, while the New Covenant is about exclusively building and planting.
Lord Jesus even said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the harvest, so leave it alone lest you tear up the wheat as well. He said "My angels will take care of that!" But not many in UR circles, from what I've seen, really take Him at His Word regarding that, that if they'll emphasize the wheat then it'll choke out the tares by itself and what's left undone will be dealt with by angels. Just try to always have something edifying for all Christians up to the level that they're able to agree with you and vice versa. Focus on what you've got in common with them rather than slipping, unintentionally, into Pharisaical behaviour with emphasizing how they differ from your truth. All Christians agree that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that we would have life thru the Son. It's when you wander much beyond that that they get a bit self condemned sometimes.
I'm not saying to bury the truth, but just know where you can plant what. There are places where you can unload both of your revolvers, Winchesters, or whatever, with the speed and precision of Billy the Kid or Annie Oakley. There are places, particularly with dealing with the world rather than with the Body of Christ where you Apostolically throw down the gauntlet, smack that river with your coat crying out "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?!!" and it'll part for you and you'll do twice as much as anyone else has ever done in the particular areas where you're called to raise the standard of Christ's unquestionable victory and the tsunami of God's love that's not content until it's buried every life in Himself and in every need being met and all things that pertain to life and godliness being fulfilled in one's life. Deal gently with His flock and He'll give you one of your own. But Romans asks who are you to criticize another Man's servant? To his own Master he stands or falls and God's able to make him stand. As long as they're walking in all of the light that they have, and none of us are the judges of that at this stage, then the Scriptures advise all of us about Church ministries "HANDS OFF!!"
3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
--Rom 14
Quote from: martincisneros on October 13, 2009, 06:12:35 PM
As far as who to share the Gospel with, have water for the thirsty, food for the hungry, medicine for the infirmed, I think Proverbs says to have alcohol for the dying, have milk for the babies, and spiritual meat to share mainly with the cultists, New Agers, etc., that would be brought to Christ by heavier truth. I get deeply concerned by folks in UR circles that the Universal Restoration is the only thing that they know and understand of the Gospel and they make the identical same mistakes as the Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe crowds with only emphasizing one or two portions of Scripture and basing their whole ministry on that. Not everyone is called to teach everything in the Bible, for sure, and nobody in UR should be quick with the judgmentalism about any segment of the Body of Christ that's called to build a different part of the House of God from what they're called to build.
But I'm as comfortable around Catholics as I'd be around Baptists, Pentecostals, Word of Faith folks, Methodists, etc., because I'm not toting only one portion of the Gospel to the exclusion and villification of the rest. I can emphasize the Bread and Cup around those that emphasize the Bread and Cup. I can emphasize the New Birth among those that emphasize the New Birth. I can emphasize the miraculous and demonstrate it among those that emphasize and demonstrate the miraculous. And I can as comfortably repreach John Wesley sermons as I would Smith Wigglesworth's and enjoy the company of Methodists while reminding them a bit about their heritage and distinctives that make them the wonderful segment of the Body that they are. Jeremiah 31:27-28 says that the Old Covenant was about overthrowing and uprooting, while the New Covenant is about exclusively building and planting.
Lord Jesus even said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the harvest, so leave it alone lest you tear up the wheat as well. He said "My angels will take care of that!" But not many in UR circles, from what I've seen, really take Him at His Word regarding that, that if they'll emphasize the wheat then it'll choke out the tares by itself and what's left undone will be dealt with by angels. Just try to always have something edifying for all Christians up to the level that they're able to agree with you and vice versa. Focus on what you've got in common with them rather than slipping, unintentionally, into Pharisaical behaviour with emphasizing how they differ from your truth. All Christians agree that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that we would have life thru the Son. It's when you wander much beyond that that they get a bit self condemned sometimes.
I'm not saying to bury the truth, but just know where you can plant what. There are places where you can unload both of your revolvers, Winchesters, or whatever, with the speed and precision of Billy the Kid or Annie Oakley. There are places, particularly with dealing with the world rather than with the Body of Christ where you Apostolically throw down the gauntlet, smack that river with your coat crying out "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?!!" and it'll part for you and you'll do twice as much as anyone else has ever done in the particular areas where you're called to raise the standard of Christ's unquestionable victory and the tsunami of God's love that's not content until it's buried every life in Himself and in every need being met and all things that pertain to life and godliness being fulfilled in one's life. Deal gently with His flock and He'll give you one of your own. But Romans asks who are you to criticize another Man's servant? To his own Master he stands or falls and God's able to make him stand. As long as they're walking in all of the light that they have, and none of us are the judges of that at this stage, then the Scriptures advise all of us about Church ministries "HANDS OFF!!"
Hi! Martincisneros
I very much agree with your commentary.
However, I think that the extremely limited format of this Web Portal serves to exaggerate whatever perceived inadequacies there may be among us.
Years ago when I was assisting a Ministry to have an Internet presence, I realized the awkwardness of having Discussion Forums alone and so upgraded it to a full-blown Site so that components such as Social Networking, Member Blogs and Live Chat and other interactive items could facilitate and compliment the whole.
This same issue arose when I was creating a WebSite for the Federal Government last year. At first, the only interactive component they wanted was Discussion Forums. In short time the Forum deteriorated into something of a combined discussion & pleased-to-meet-you festival which was proving detrimental to the purposes of the Site.
In here I see a Discussion Board which is trying to be everything it was never intended to be nor even capable of being. For some it occasionally pretends to be a social network; for others it tries to be live-chat ... and so on. The problem is that it invariably ends up being something of a messy affair over-all.
My opinyun, fer what itz werth.
I think that many ETers don't want to believe in the salvation of all because to them it means that you backslide. They normally say, "then what's the use of living a holy life if we'll all be saved??"
It's PRECISELY the question that Job, in all his pride, puts to God. (And God basically tells him that his "holiness" or "sin" means nothing to Him..
It's also the question Paul refutes in the beginning of Romans 6, just after explaining in ch 5 that ALL have been given life.
So they don't want to believe that all will be saved because to them it means opening pandora's box and letting all hell break loose.
In reality, it's the opposite! When you feel in your heart the wonderful message, it draws you CLOSER to God, not farther away!! (The GOODNESS of God LEADS to repentance!)
Love to all,
Brian
-And since it's they who scare people away with their hollywood movies of hell, I believe we NEED to confront them in front of all, to show that God is a God of LOVE. It's what the world needs so badly!
Jesus told his disciples to preach and if they wouldnt listen to leave shaking the dust from their feet.
Theres only so much people can do to teach others, if someone wont listen, you can't force them, and why should you?
Is it your right to ram your beliefs down someones throat?
Molly, i just have to shrug at the post you gave, because it's totally out of place here and rather pointless.
Gilbert. You said -
"For some it occasionally pretends to be a social network; for others it tries to be live-chat ... and so on. The problem is that it invariably ends up being something of a messy affair over-all."
LOL! You just contradict yourself by coming into this post and posting something that doesn't belong in it at all and therefore 'messing up the forum'.
Maybe you should make a seperate forum for complaining about such things rather than go off topic and make a mess on this post?
On a positive note, Gab, Whitewings, Jabcat stuck to the topic and gave answers that actually made some sense which any reasonable person can see.
Getting into never ending debates with someone who clearly doesnt want to understand your opinions is pointless! The time wasted on that person could have been time well spent on helping and teaching others.
Your called to SPREAD the word, not argue with the same people day in and out about who is right and who is wrong.
Also it isnt good for your spiritual health, it will confuse you and anger you when you see how stubborn they can be. And why shouldnt they stick to their beliefs? Maybe theyre just not ready to hear the news yet, move on! Come back to them some other time, but dont ruin your life in a losing battle.
On the other hand, preaching to ready ears is great! They actually listen and are receptive of the good news! There are a lot of them out there.
I find it laughable being told "do not critisize another mans servant", when thats what a few posters in here has done! WITHOUT even reading my post (or understanding it).
Have an opinion! Put it across! - but dear oh dear people, let's stop this holier than thou stuff. - Fair enough; quote scripture to me, but make sure its actually got something to do with the topic at hand and that you actually understand the part of scripture your quoting yourself.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 13, 2009, 08:27:13 PM
Getting into never ending debates with someone who clearly doesnt want to understand your opinions is pointless! The time wasted on that person could have been time well spent on helping and teaching others.
Your called to SPREAD the word, not argue with the same people day in and out about who is right and who is wrong.
Also it isnt good for your spiritual health, it will confuse you and anger you when you see how stubborn they can be. And why shouldnt they stick to their beliefs? Maybe theyre just not ready to hear the news yet, move on! Come back to them some other time, but dont ruin your life in a losing battle.
On the other hand, preaching to ready ears is great! They actually listen and are receptive of the good news! There are a lot of them out there.
I think that you are 100% right!!
Sometimes, I think people debate ET'ers on message boards because they feel there are those lurkers out there who may be benefitting. Not that the ET person is going to change their mind, but that by countering their false beliefs, someone out in the world who may be following the conversation will be reached.
Personally, I try hard not to debate with ET'ers but rather just to put my views out there and leave. Debate is futile and I think sometimes does more damage than good. I think sometimes it just sets a person in their own beliefs that much deeper and they hold onto their beliefs that much tighter when they are having to "defend". Not many see all the holes in their so-called defense.
It's hard not to get caught up sometimes, though. When you see such blasphemous lies... it does make you want to just stand up and say STOP! This is WRONG! It's like if someone told you your best friend was going around robbing elderly people and killing puppies. And they keep telling people over and over that your best friend is doing this. And when you protest, they say you are delusional. Except it's worse because they're talking about God and they're saying He's going to send human beings to a torture chamber. Something inside of you just...needs to fight that.
Anyway.. I think you're right in what you've said JHKH, I agree with you.
You have to know when to get up and shake the dust off.
Offer a different view, SHARE... but perhaps debating endlessly is not the answer.
SHARE! and move on.
Let those with ears hear.
If something you've said perks up someone's heart, then God will take over and lead them.
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2009, 06:35:21 PM
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Molly,
There are servants of God and servants of a false god.
For me personally it's very hard to figure out what is 'enough'.
"We" had this discussion before. People have shown me several verses that prove not to push the gospel down someone throat. Martins wheat and tares example is one of them.
So I won't ignore all those verses. But it can't be denied Father (OT) and Son (NT) devoted lots of time spreading the gospel.
As said ramming a Bible down ones throat is 'to much'.
But going to a Calvinist congress and just shout "All will be saved!" isn't going to work either.
I've read in this thread we should wait for a good opportuty to spread the word. But in the sower parable the sower just kept spreading his seed in all kinds of soil. The sower didn't first analyse every sq inch of soil before dropping a few seeds.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2009, 08:38:36 PM
As said ramming a Bible down ones throat is 'to much'.
But going to a Calvinist congress and just shout "All will be saved!" isn't going to work either.
I've read in this thread we should wait for a good opportuty to spread the word. But in the sower parable the sower just kept spreading his seed in all kinds of soil. The sower didn't first analyse every sq inch of soil before dropping a few seeds.
True.
Quote from: sparrow on October 13, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 13, 2009, 08:27:13 PM
Getting into never ending debates with someone who clearly doesnt want to understand your opinions is pointless! The time wasted on that person could have been time well spent on helping and teaching others.
Your called to SPREAD the word, not argue with the same people day in and out about who is right and who is wrong.
Also it isnt good for your spiritual health, it will confuse you and anger you when you see how stubborn they can be. And why shouldnt they stick to their beliefs? Maybe theyre just not ready to hear the news yet, move on! Come back to them some other time, but dont ruin your life in a losing battle.
On the other hand, preaching to ready ears is great! They actually listen and are receptive of the good news! There are a lot of them out there.
I think that you are 100% right!!
Sometimes, I think people debate ET'ers on message boards because they feel there are those lurkers out there who may be benefitting. Not that the ET person is going to change their mind, but that by countering their false beliefs, someone out in the world who may be following the conversation will be reached.
Personally, I try hard not to debate with ET'ers but rather just to put my views out there and leave. Debate is futile and I think sometimes does more damage than good. I think sometimes it just sets a person in their own beliefs that much deeper and they hold onto their beliefs that much tighter when they are having to "defend". Not many see all the holes in their so-called defense.
It's hard not to get caught up sometimes, though. When you see such blasphemous lies... it does make you want to just stand up and say STOP! This is WRONG! It's like if someone told you your best friend was going around robbing elderly people and killing puppies. And they keep telling people over and over that your best friend is doing this. And when you protest, they say you are delusional. Except it's worse because they're talking about God and they're saying He's going to send human beings to a torture chamber. Something inside of you just...needs to fight that.
Anyway.. I think you're right in what you've said JHKH, I agree with you.
You have to know when to get up and shake the dust off.
Offer a different view, SHARE... but perhaps debating endlessly is not the answer.
SHARE! and move on.
Let those with ears hear.
If something you've said perks up someone's heart, then God will take over and lead them.
Sparrow I always love your posts and agree with all you say.
I would like to add -
Let our light so shine before men that they may see your good works. ... that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven (Mt. 5:16).
Debating endlessly, (which lets face it usually ends up in an argument and ends up being more about 'who wins' (pride) than anything else looks silly to people who are just looking for the truth. They dont really want to see two Christians at each others throats.
Someone walking in could say -
"Thats what Christians are like? Im out of here!"
Getting a point across is one thing, but it doesnt take pages and pages of repetitive drivell, it takes one post, stating your point and leaving it at that and letting others make up their own minds.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2009, 08:38:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2009, 06:35:21 PM
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Molly,
There are servants of God and servants of a false god.
For me personally it's very hard to figure out what is 'enough'.
"We" had this discussion before. People have shown me several verses that prove not to push the gospel down someone throat. Martins wheat and tares example is one of them.
So I won't ignore all those verses. But it can't be denied Father (OT) and Son (NT) devoted lots of time spreading the gospel.
As said ramming a Bible down ones throat is 'to much'.
But going to a Calvinist congress and just shout "All will be saved!" isn't going to work either.
I've read in this thread we should wait for a good opportuty to spread the word. But in the sower parable the sower just kept spreading his seed in all kinds of soil. The sower didn't first analyse every sq inch of soil before dropping a few seeds.
Good post i liked that.
Im sure for all the time people argue with one ET'er they could have spread the word to at least 10 receptive willing ears.
I just dont like seeing my brothers and sisters wasting their time, and feeling disheartened and even getting 'doubt's' about their own faith from senseless debates that go on and on, with no end in sight, because the ET'er doesn't even want to change their views, more often than not they just love an argument, which the other party gets roped into and both end up looking as silly as the other one to anyone watching.
Quote from: JHKHIm sure for all the time people argue with one ET'er they could have spread the word to at least 10 receptive willing ears.
I just dont like seeing my brothers and sisters wasting their time, and feeling disheartened and even getting 'doubt's' about their own faith from senseless debates that go on and on, with no end in sight, because the ET'er doesn't even want to change their views, more often than not they just love an argument, which the other party gets roped into and both end up looking as silly as the other one to anyone watching.
I couldn't agree more, a couple of months ago I identified as agnostic and purposely joined a forum to get a rise out of and ride the hardcore fundy ETers, although I was quite successful, I had a bunch of them possibly seething and vibrating behind their computer screens because I left them gobsmacked, most of them didn't want to come near me with a ten foot pole, about 2 weeks after joining I woke up one morning and realized that my behaviour was downright destructive and I felt genuinely remorseful about it, so I made public apologies and private apologies to people I had lashed out at, what was even more surprising at the time was that although I technically identify as an agnostic theist, I was even more uncomfortable posting in the atheist and agnostic section as I didn't like the nature and direction mostof the threads went in, which was basically one big slander cesspool which mocked and ridiculed christianity and God and Jesus (sometimes using vulgar terms, that are totally lacking in reverence, that I won't repeat here), if push had to come to shove, I'd take sides with an ETer against an atheist or agnostic although I agree with the A&A's views about the concept of ET, whereas I agree with the ETers in that I believe in God and salvation in Christ alone but I don't share and cannot share their vile concept of ET, and that's the reason I don't identify as christian as they have made it patently clear (not to me but to others) that if one doesn't accept or embrace the concept one is automatically classified as a liberal or heretic, so I label myself accordingly
The trouble is though that in the christian forums, threads get derailed and meander off topic, and insults get thrown around from all parties both ET and UR, instead of focusing on what they have in common, they emphasize and harp on things they don't have in common and after about the 5th post or so, it's like venturing into a madhouse, I can't begin to imagine how it must look to a non-believer who's looking for answers and sees professing christians at one anothers throats and calling one another names, the point I'm trying to make is that if the christians start accepting one anothers viewpoints, or at the very least be able to conduct themselves with civility on a message board despite their differences (who knows perhaps they could even genuinely begin to love one another) perhaps then people may start to see results when there is some semblance of christian unity
I must say that there is more unity and love here, than any other fairly busy christian forum I've been on, some have been so bad (even when all agree about ET), they are usually focusing on and judging and pointing their fingers at the morals of atheist and agnostics and everyone else they hate (consider as reprobates)
It's a vicious circle that seems to have no end in sight to it, because people have lost focus of why they are there initially in the first place
"I must say that there is more unity and love here, than any other fairly busy christian forum I've been on, some have been so bad (even when all agree about ET), they are usually focusing on and judging and pointing their fingers at the morals of atheist and agnostics and everyone else they hate (consider as reprobates)" -Shadow
I agree. Maybe the Lord is showing us something..
Love to all,
Brian
Quote from: Shadow on October 13, 2009, 11:33:33 PM
Quote from: JHKHIm sure for all the time people argue with one ET'er they could have spread the word to at least 10 receptive willing ears.
I just dont like seeing my brothers and sisters wasting their time, and feeling disheartened and even getting 'doubt's' about their own faith from senseless debates that go on and on, with no end in sight, because the ET'er doesn't even want to change their views, more often than not they just love an argument, which the other party gets roped into and both end up looking as silly as the other one to anyone watching.
I couldn't agree more, a couple of months ago I identified as agnostic and purposely joined a forum to get a rise out of and ride the hardcore fundy ETers, although I was quite successful, I had a bunch of them possibly seething and vibrating behind their computer screens because I left them gobsmacked, most of them didn't want to come near me with a ten foot pole, about 2 weeks after joining I woke up one morning and realized that my behaviour was downright destructive and I felt genuinely remorseful about it, so I made public apologies and private apologies to people I had lashed out at, what was even more surprising at the time was that although I technically identify as an agnostic theist, I was even more uncomfortable posting in the atheist and agnostic section as I didn't like the nature and direction mostof the threads went in, which was basically one big slander cesspool which mocked and ridiculed christianity and God and Jesus (sometimes using vulgar terms, that are totally lacking in reverence, that I won't repeat here), if push had to come to shove, I'd take sides with an ETer against an atheist or agnostic although I agree with the A&A's views about the concept of ET, whereas I agree with the ETers in that I believe in God and salvation in Christ alone but I don't share and cannot share their vile concept of ET, and that's the reason I don't identify as christian as they have made it patently clear (not to me but to others) that if one doesn't accept or embrace the concept one is automatically classified as a liberal or heretic, so I label myself accordingly
The trouble is though that in the christian forums, threads get derailed and meander off topic, and insults get thrown around from all parties both ET and UR, instead of focusing on what they have in common, they emphasize and harp on things they don't have in common and after about the 5th post or so, it's like venturing into a madhouse, I can't begin to imagine how it must look to a non-believer who's looking for answers and sees professing christians at one anothers throats and calling one another names, the point I'm trying to make is that if the christians start accepting one anothers viewpoints, or at the very least be able to conduct themselves with civility on a message board despite their differences (who knows perhaps they could even genuinely begin to love one another) perhaps then people may start to see results when there is some semblance of christian unity
I must say that there is more unity and love here, than any other fairly busy christian forum I've been on, some have been so bad (even when all agree about ET), they are usually focusing on and judging and pointing their fingers at the morals of atheist and agnostics and everyone else they hate (consider as reprobates)
It's a vicious circle that seems to have no end in sight to it, because people have lost focus of why they are there initially in the first place
Shadow great post, and i fully agree.
Ive been on both sides of the fence...Well actually MANY sides of the fence....Ive debated for Christianity, ET, Universal salvation, agnosticism, the lot. I know that it commands much more respect if someone simply states their point and leaves it at that.
I was talking to a guy earlier who was adamant that God did not create evil. I showed him a few passages of scripture.
* I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
* Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
* Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
And then I asked him to read the book of Job to see how God USES evil for a good purpose, but still this person was adamant that God didnt create evil.
You cant debate with someone like that. IF they dont even listen to what the scriptures are clearly saying and wont believe them, what is the point? They arent looking for any truth!
So i told the person that until he can accept the truth of those passages i wont debate any further, and no doubt he is raging right now, but i simply wont waste time on someone who isnt HONESTLY searching for the truth, because plenty are and id much rather talk to them.
QuoteAnd then I asked him to read the book of Job to see how God USES evil for a good purpose, but still this person was adamant that God didnt create evil.
You cant debate with someone like that. IF they dont even listen to what the scriptures are clearly saying and wont believe them, what is the point? They arent looking for any truth!
So i told the person that until he can accept the truth of those passages i wont debate any further, and no doubt he is raging right now, but i simply wont waste time on someone who isnt HONESTLY searching for the truth, because plenty are and id much rather talk to them.
Yet again I agree, I have just had a look on another forum and there is one fundy that keeps calling URers a bunch of liars and deceivers, yet this same fundy made a thread about "many created, few saved" and quoted from an apocryphal book of 2Esdras, needless to say all other fundy's agreed with the first fundy's thread, but when URers post any UR verses from the canonical bible pointing to UR, then all mentioned fundy's will blow a gasket and foam at the mouth and scream out of context, out of context
The scary thing is they can't be reasoned with and have already passed judment :mshock: :thumbdown:
The thing is the more fundamentalist they are the less loving they appear to be, I saw this from an outsiders POV a few months ago, the message of God loves all doesn't gel with what they truly believe (If ET exists then Gods is not all loving, there no 2 ways about it as it's a logical impossibility for ET to be true whilst God is all loving towards everyone)
The Phelps message gels with what they believe - God hates you all
The UR message gels with what they believe - Gods loves all unconditionally and will eventually restore everyone
I just hope that many people searching for answers end up here, as I was fortunate enough to about a year ago, I was at my wits end, even then those indoctrinated with the ET doctrine may find it hard, but at least here there are people who truly care and are encouraging and not ready to tear one anothers throats out under the false guise of "true christianity", that excludes all others who don't share their own brand of christianity
The common theme amongst the fundy's is that they are all OK and everyone else isn't, I personally don't think everyone knows everything with 100% surety
1Jn 4:20 If anyone should be saying that "I am loving God,and should be hating his brother, he is a liar; for he who is not loving his brother whom he has seen can not be loving God Whom he has not seen."
1Jn 4:21 And this precept have we from Him, that he who is loving God may be loving his brother also."
Somehow these 2 verses remind me of the parable of the good samaritan
Quote from: Shadow on October 14, 2009, 04:02:45 PM
QuoteAnd then I asked him to read the book of Job to see how God USES evil for a good purpose, but still this person was adamant that God didnt create evil.
You cant debate with someone like that. IF they dont even listen to what the scriptures are clearly saying and wont believe them, what is the point? They arent looking for any truth!
So i told the person that until he can accept the truth of those passages i wont debate any further, and no doubt he is raging right now, but i simply wont waste time on someone who isnt HONESTLY searching for the truth, because plenty are and id much rather talk to them.
Yet again I agree, I have just had a look on another forum and there is one fundy that keeps calling URers a bunch of liars and deceivers, yet this same fundy made a thread about "many created, few saved" and quoted from an apocryphal book of 2Esdras, needless to say all other fundy's agreed with the first fundy's thread, but when URers post any UR verses from the canonical bible pointing to UR, then all mentioned fundy's will blow a gasket and foam at the mouth and scream out of context, out of context
The scary thing is they can't be reasoned with and have already passed judment :mshock: :thumbdown:
The thing is the more fundamentalist they are the less loving they appear to be, I saw this from an outsiders POV a few months ago, the message of God loves all doesn't gel with what they truly believe (If ET exists then Gods is not all loving, there no 2 ways about it as it's a logical impossibility for ET to be true whilst God is all loving towards everyone)
The Phelps message gels with what they believe - God hates you all
The UR message gels with what they believe - Gods loves all unconditionally and will eventually restore everyone
I just hope that many people searching for answers end up here, as I was fortunate enough to about a year ago, I was at my wits end, even then those indoctrinated with the ET doctrine may find it hard, but at least here there are people who truly care and are encouraging and not ready to tear one anothers throats out under the false guise of "true christianity", that excludes all others who don't share their own brand of christianity
The common theme amongst the fundy's is that they are all OK and everyone else isn't, I personally don't think everyone knows everything with 100% surety
1Jn 4:20 If anyone should be saying that "I am loving God,and should be hating his brother, he is a liar; for he who is not loving his brother whom he has seen can not be loving God Whom he has not seen."
1Jn 4:21 And this precept have we from Him, that he who is loving God may be loving his brother also."
Somehow these 2 verses remind me of the parable of the good samaritan
Hi Shadow, again i fully agree.
I am reminded of this parable -
Matthew 20
Laborers in the Vineyard
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius[a] a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4and to them he said, 'You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.' 5So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6And(A) about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, 'Why do you stand here idle all day?' 7They said to him, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' 8And(B) when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his(C) foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.' 9And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and(D) the scorching heat.' 13But he replied to one of them,(E) 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14Take(F) what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15(G) Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or(H) do you begrudge my generosity?'
16So(I) the last will be first, and the first last."It seems that many 'Christians' WANT or EXPECT to have some 'special' reward for following God longer than other have. What they forget is that they were saved by grace and could do NOTHING by themselves to be saved...They didn't EARN it. They are envious of God because he is good to the ungodly and he can 'have mercy on whomever he wishes'.
Romans 9:15 >>
NIV© For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
You mentioned the story of the good Samaritan, funnily enough i was debating the other day with someone who said that story was added into the gospel later on...They actually DONT even want to believe such a nice story! It's incredible!
The person i was debating with earlier has in the last hour told me that the part in the Bible "God creates evil", was ADDED 400 years ago to the Bible and that it doesnt say so in the KJV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I pointed out that it IS in the KJV, in fact that was the very source i was quoting from, and STILL he probably wont listen! Debating with such people is a waste of time, ive asked him to get his facts right first, to stop lieing and making things up and then we can debate sensibly if he wishes....But i really think it would be easier for a ZEPPELIN to go through the eye of a pin lol!!!
On a positive note im noticing on the internet on the odd ocassion i do debate, that there are much more universalists out there now, and we all help each other.
The difference i have found between ETers and Universalists is that universalists usually know their bible well...Most ETers dont have a clue but are stubborn in their own minds and from what some fire breathing preacher has spewed out on them.
I guess if they are interested in the truth, they could find it, but most still insist that hell exists (cos the modern badly translated bible says so), they dont have a clue what God's 'fire' actually is. They dont have a clue that hell was basically another name for 'death', they wont listen when you tell them 'forever doesnt mean forever, it was translated wrong' and nor are they interested in even hearing about such things when someone tells them the truth....
....I can only assume they are HAPPY believing MOST people end up in hell forever being tormented by demons and HAPPY believing that the devil is actually MUCH MORE powerful than God.
Urgh![/b][/b][/glow][/color][/font]
I had similar thoughts like you, that it's vain to discuss with people and that we should rather provide our point of view for them that are searching on their own.
On the other hand, maybe we should show presence in public forums and show that ET is not the only opinion among Christians, if given the chance we should defend our belief.
For a while I liked these discussions if I can defend my believe, after I realized that the arguments pro hell are always the same, the least of them scriptural I somehow lack the motivation to argument deep and scripturally as they won't listen anyway.
I shared universalism in a suicide forum where I spent several years, nobody was interested instead one user only told me about his hate towards the church; I also shared universalism in real life with my (unbelieving) landlord who lost his wife, he was quiten open, I gave him a book from the Concordant publishers. But haven't talked with him since then.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on October 13, 2009, 07:59:53 PM
I think that many ETers don't want to believe in the salvation of all because to them it means that you backslide.
Surely some just don't
want to believe.
But I think others don't
dare to believe.
Quote from: sparrow on October 13, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
Offer a different view, SHARE... but perhaps debating endlessly is not the answer.
The problem is that you can't know that before yous start.
Maybe that extra hour, that extra verse finally will plant the seed. Or not..
QuoteSHARE! and move on.
Sparrow, nothing negative towards you, or anyone; I've read similar responces in several threads.
If 'you' have 10 people a day you are going to share UR with then I can agree. Don't waste to much time on 1 person and because of that 9 others are missing the true gospel.
But..... be honest. How many ETs you speak daily in an attempt to convert/plant a seed?
Is it really 10 a day? 1? Personally I would be very suprised if it was 1 a week. Or even 1 a month.
So when spending some extra time on that one ET others aren't missing your wisdom....
:2c:
I have a big problem with wanting to debate people and share what ive found. Not in the sense of "IM RIGHT AND YOURE WRONG" but just that I want to make available a message that has been so utterly lost in the sound of all our Christian dogma. Ive recently attended a bible study as well(based in a ET church) and its really hard to hold my tounge sometimes.
but I think sometimes the best thing to do is just put the right questions out there, and if someone "bites" go with it. Im becoming increasingly aware of how easy it is to back peoples theology into a corner, so to speak. You can do it with one question most the time and when you have, you know it because then theyll construct a strawman argument that has really nothing to do with your question. Its not a strategy ive really implemented yet but its one I plan on.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 14, 2009, 09:03:34 PM
Quote from: sparrow on October 13, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
Offer a different view, SHARE... but perhaps debating endlessly is not the answer.
The problem is that you can't know that before yous start.
Maybe that extra hour, that extra verse finally will plant the seed. Or not..
QuoteSHARE! and move on.
Sparrow, nothing negative towards you, or anyone; I've read similar responces in several threads.
If 'you' have 10 people a day you are going to share UR with then I can agree. Don't waste to much time on 1 person and because of that 9 others are missing the true gospel.
But..... be honest. How many ETs you speak daily in an attempt to convert/plant a seed?
Is it really 10 a day? 1? Personally I would be very suprised if it was 1 a week. Or even 1 a month.
So when spending some extra time on that one ET others aren't missing your wisdom....
:2c:
I'm mostly thinking of ET'ers who are NOT open to the message. Who are just totally in that "hardened heart" part of their path (for whatever reason). To me, there's a difference between folks who believe in ET but don't WANT to..and those who believe in it and WANT to. One heart is totally hardened, the other isn't. I would absolutely keep spending time with someone who was responding and having more of an open mind. Without a doubt.
When I said.. "Share...offer a different view.. and leave" to be honest, I suppose I was thinking of scenarios like city-data's christianity forum for example. Where you have some major foaming at the mouth, hardcore ET believers who do not listen to ONE single word you say. When I share with them, I usually don't debate with them because it's just not something that is good for my soul. Others can. I can't. Sometimes it ends with people acting very unloving. I just can't get sucked into it. Sometimes I do. But normally, for the benefit of other lurkers who may be following the conversation and looking for a different viewpoint, I'll try to offer that branch as they go swimming by in the river. Just kind of a "hey... over here... there's a different way to think of this..." kind of thing.
does that make sense?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 14, 2009, 09:03:34 PM
Quote from: sparrow on October 13, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
Offer a different view, SHARE... but perhaps debating endlessly is not the answer.
The problem is that you can't know that before yous start.
Maybe that extra hour, that extra verse finally will plant the seed. Or not..
QuoteSHARE! and move on.
Sparrow, nothing negative towards you, or anyone; I've read similar responces in several threads.
If 'you' have 10 people a day you are going to share UR with then I can agree. Don't waste to much time on 1 person and because of that 9 others are missing the true gospel.
But..... be honest. How many ETs you speak daily in an attempt to convert/plant a seed?
Is it really 10 a day? 1? Personally I would be very suprised if it was 1 a week. Or even 1 a month.
So when spending some extra time on that one ET others aren't missing your wisdom....
:2c:
Well, the way I see it, the problem is that every single person you talk to without budging an inch is at least somewhat a disappointment, and the longer you talk to the person the more time you'll have felt that you've wasted. Do too much of that, and you may just give up talking to people altogether, which is an even worse outcome. Humans aren't robots who can just do the same thing forever with no feedback whatsoever. I think the people who are truly "hardened heart ET adherents" are effectively the modern Pharisees, and the only time during which Jesus addressed the Pharisees was to rebuke them and then carry on - he didn't spend hours sitting down and debating theology with them, because he knew very well that such an endeavor was monumentally futile.
I think the parable of the sower is very appropriate here (Matthew 13:3-8). The farmer that Jesus describes does not
plant the seed; he only scatters it. Whether it has any effect is not due to any effort on the part of the farmer; rather, it is due to the receptiveness of the soil on which the seed lands. I think that there are largely two states a person can be in: he or she can either be ready to receive the true Gospel, or he or she can be not. And if that person is not, the nothing we can do can change that, just as even a million seeds cast on the path will not cause any of them to bring forth a crop. In the same respect, I think that we ought to merely be bearers of news - that is what the Gospel is, after all: news - rather than debaters who attempt to squeeze good soil out of the path. We can provide the seeds, but only the Holy Spirit can transform a stone path into fertile soil.
Quote from: Gab on October 15, 2009, 05:20:26 AM
In the same respect, I think that we ought to merely be bearers of news - that is what the Gospel is, after all: news - rather than debaters who attempt to squeeze good soil out of the path. We can provide the seeds, but only the Holy Spirit can transform a stone path into fertile soil.
Thats probably the best way to look at it, honestly. its not up to us to change people. And really I find the people that are most receptive to what I have to say now are non-christians or christians that have(like I have) become disillusioned with the mainstream. I think thats where God wants our attention the most.
People will have their "bad theology" so, if their not ready to dig deeper, leave them to it. God knows what to do.
Quote from: Gab on October 15, 2009, 05:20:26 AM
Well, the way I see it, the problem is that every single person you talk to without budging an inch is at least somewhat a disappointment, and the longer you talk to the person the more time you'll have felt that you've wasted. Do too much of that, and you may just give up talking to people altogether, which is an even worse outcome. Humans aren't robots who can just do the same thing forever with no feedback whatsoever. I think the people who are truly "hardened heart ET adherents" are effectively the modern Pharisees, and the only time during which Jesus addressed the Pharisees was to rebuke them and then carry on - he didn't spend hours sitting down and debating theology with them, because he knew very well that such an endeavor was monumentally futile.
I think the parable of the sower is very appropriate here (Matthew 13:3-8). The farmer that Jesus describes does not plant the seed; he only scatters it. Whether it has any effect is not due to any effort on the part of the farmer; rather, it is due to the receptiveness of the soil on which the seed lands. I think that there are largely two states a person can be in: he or she can either be ready to receive the true Gospel, or he or she can be not. And if that person is not, the nothing we can do can change that, just even a million seeds cast on the path will not cause any of them to bring forth a crop. In the same respect, I think that we ought to merely be bearers of news - that is what the Gospel is, after all: news - rather than debaters who attempt to squeeze good soil out of the path. We can provide the seeds, but only the Holy Spirit can transform a stone path into fertile soil.
That spoke to me Gab. Thanks. I'm going to read it again.
cp
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on October 15, 2009, 04:22:56 AM
I have a big problem with wanting to debate people and share what ive found. Not in the sense of "IM RIGHT AND YOURE WRONG" but just that I want to make available a message that has been so utterly lost in the sound of all our Christian dogma. Ive recently attended a bible study as well(based in a ET church) and its really hard to hold my tounge sometimes.
but I think sometimes the best thing to do is just put the right questions out there, and if someone "bites" go with it. Im becoming increasingly aware of how easy it is to back peoples theology into a corner, so to speak. You can do it with one question most the time and when you have, you know it because then theyll construct a strawman argument that has really nothing to do with your question. Its not a strategy ive really implemented yet but its one I plan on.
Hey Ninja, that sounds really wise - developing a strategy for different people. I remember Paul saying he is ALL things to ALL people. Adjusting how we approach others with the gospel and how we speak about it is good, because the wrong approach could have many running a mile...It sounds like quite a high calling to me. I still think one of the best ways to spread the gospel is to make tracts perhaps mentioning the fact that there is no 'hell', that one day God will be all in all etc, that you can leave around wherever you go...Even in your church. That way you dont have to say a word and you get the point across clearly without causing any friction, after all, you arent forceing anyone to read anything, your just leaving the tract.
I always think of the power of the tract. Imagine someone on a bus or a train, at their wits end, wondering what life is all about, confused etc, and then they find the tract which speaks of a loving God and something that gives meaning to life etc, i think they are the best way to spread the news i really do, and along with that 'being a lamp' in a dark world, because sooner or later people will ask -
"Why are you always positive", or "Why did you not get angry just then when he/she said that", etc. And then we can give a reason for our faith.
But like you im always planning new strategys also.