was everyone here already a christian beofre they became a universal
:cloud9: I was. I personally don't consider it "converting" to anything, for me it's just another piece of the puzzle God added to the truth I already had. Blessings to you...
All my life........and taught that hell was a great idea for people who didn't agree
with you, to go. :LH:
D.
Yes, ever since I was born. :laughing7: At least as far as believing the right things according to most christians. But slow to grow and took many years to know I was accepted into the family. And still grew slowly. After pondering what it was that made the difference between those going to heaven and those going to that other (mythical) place, the thought came to me that maybe He was going to save everyone but thinking that was not possible. But finally in spring of 2010 I blundered onto a web sight about everyone being saved and I was converted in a second and couldn't change my mind if I wanted to. Since then I've continued to learn and I KNOW that the Father has only good intentions for us all.
do all universalists start off as christian
Yes, and by quite a few years. Getting past carnality helps.
you're telling me no one starts off beleiving in universal salvation
has there ever been an instance of an atheist receiving some "divine revelation" and going directly to universal salvation
I don't know. It's an interesting question. I personally believe there are many people who have been given the faith to have a personal, saving relationship with Christ (have come to Him in repentance etc.) and will never "see" UR until the next age.
I also believe there are people who believe in UR (as a technical doctrine, "no hell", etc.) who will never know Christ personally as Savior until the next age. But believing in and trusting Jesus as Savior is the first step to all other - even correct - doctrine.
why do you people who have "divine revelations" of jesus become things like fundamentalists and not universal salvation
Quote from: ask21771 on May 17, 2016, 02:56:17 AM
why do you people who have "divine revelations" of jesus become things like fundamentalists and not universal salvation
Good question, to me it seems like spirituality and growing closer to God is a process and those who have an abrupt conversion experience and then become fundamentalists do so in my opinion because fundamentalism is the infant stage of spiritual growth. Some stay there for a while but others don't and progress.
It reminds me of how the disciples, those who Jesus handpicked and who followed
Him the closest, were often wrong in their thinking:
Such as...
Jesus rebuking them and saying "you know not what spirit you are of" when they wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy people.
Jesus rebuking Peter when he cut the ear off of the soldier in the garden before he was arrested.
If they often got it wrong and they were living with Jesus and trying to follow his every teaching, how can we expect people today to get it all right?
Also, though I believe scriptures plainly tell of God's ultimate plan for all of creation, it's not like Jesus and the OT prophets and the apostles all went around saying "We will all be reunited with God in the end!" To me the reason this wasn't spoken about all the time is that even if that's the case, Jesus was teaching us how we should live here on earth in order to live as God wants us to (which is the best possible way to live) We should look forward to union with God but really our focus should be how to live now according to His will.
anyone else have an answer
Quote from: ask21771 on May 17, 2016, 02:56:17 AM
why do you people who have "divine revelations" of jesus become things like fundamentalists and not universal salvation
Actually, I have had two instances of God speaking directly to me, and confirmed as true by later events. I was a Christian at the time, but had yet to encounter UR. What's with the term "you people"?
i put you by accident
I'll toss out some possibilities/thoughts. By far the predominant belief and teaching about the afterlife for those who "don't go to heaven" in the Christian church - including most Bible translations - is hell/eternal torment. It's not only what the church hears and has heard for hundreds of years, it's what those outside the church hear and taught too. It's pervasive. So a thought would be that when someone is called to Christ and responds to Him as Savior, what's ingrained in them already is "hell"/ET. Then they read the Bible and see it there. Perhaps in most cases it takes the work of the Holy Spirit and revelation just to get past that indoctrination and see something else "hidden" in the scriptures (although many would say it's not so hidden - just that our tradition veils it from our eyes).
I believe it's like that with many things, i.e., we mature, grow in grace and knowledge as Paul said. Seeing things, understanding things as we go. And many people, including ET believers, do grow in many ways. I've known many who were certainly more loving, gentle, soft/tender-hearted, loved the Lord so much. Still however, IMO the hell thing can be more of a stumbling block/hurdle to get over than most other doctrine because it's the automatic default position, and most people don't ever get past it.
I honestly don't know why God allowed the mistranslations, faulty teachings, etc. But there's a good purpose. Likely for the overall learning experience of mankind. But that's sort of its whole other subject. :2c:
This site teaches Christian Biblical Universalism from the scriptures of the Bible cannon commonly held as the legitimate source of light by all Christians.
We are not just universalists who believe any way leads to God.
We believe all men will be brought to a revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord and bow their knee to Him, giving glory to God the Father.(Phil 2:9-11)
The word "universalist" only applies to us because we believe the whole universe will be "gathered into one in Christ"(Eph 1:9-11)
We do not believe this, for the most part, because "God told us so" in some vision.
We believe it because the scritpures teach it in many places.
Of the foundation doctrines spoken of in the 6th chapter of Hebrews, the salvation of all is explained in the last two, "the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment(Hebrews 6:1-3), and since many organized church groups teach eternal torment believers are often not exposed to the truth until later in their walks as they seek God and study His words.
In the same way people often change churches as their study informe their views, so also if a person continues to study the scriptures through the course of years as a serious disciple, they will learn new things and grow.
But we are first Christians, disciples of our Lord, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit has led us through the scriptures into the understanding that eventually all will be saved.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Coiossians 1
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Ephesians 1
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. Romans 11
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." John:12
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Revelation 21:5
Quote from: ask21771 on May 16, 2016, 08:37:02 PM
do all universalists start off as christian
Quote from: ask21771 on May 16, 2016, 11:30:20 PM
you're telling me no one starts off beleiving in universal salvation
Quote from: ask21771 on May 17, 2016, 04:21:40 AM
anyone else have an answer
I'd be interested in hearing what you think and how you came to believe whatever you believe. I wrote above a little about my experience and I guess it was divine revelation but I came to think about these things because of scripture and afterwards saw many things in scripture confirming UR.
So how about you?
Quote from: ask21771 on May 16, 2016, 06:42:02 PM
was everyone here already a christian beofre they became a universal
Ronny to Ask:
I don't know about everyone here; but personally, I was a Christian for 39 years, before I came to see the truth of universal salvation. And in fact, I didn't even know there was such a teaching/belief. I didn't, until about 6 to 7 years ago, when another poster talked about such, in another group. And when I first heard of such, I wished it was true; but I thought it too good to be true! (ha) Before that, I just knew some people thought everyone was going to heaven and that because all religions led there. Now I knew that wasn't right; but I knew nothing about the teaching/belief, that God had chosen to save everyone, by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. But when I first heard of universal restoration, I simply did what God had previously shown me to do, when it came to another matter. That is, I read the reasons for why some people believed this way and in doing that, I was also reading the scriptures they gave, to back up why they believed as they did. And in this way, I came to see they were right. :-) And that my Calvinistic upbringing, was wrong.
Sometime, after I came to see UR was right, God reminded me of what God had done for me, when I was born of God, at 16 years old. In that, God let me know I was lost, not in a right relationship with God. God led me to a man, who simply read a scripture passage to me. As he did, I knew God was there and God who was holy. God showed me my sin and led me to repentance. I repented/agreed with God and when I did, the love of God began to pour out on me, as God showed me Jesus Christ on the cross. God let me see and understand, that Jesus Christ was there for me, in my place, taking my sins upon himself. And that's how God showed and proved to me, how greatly God/Jesus Christ loved me. :-) And in with this, God gave me the desire for all people to be saved, for all to have the same relationship with God, as I then had. But then for me, it was back to the Calvinistic teaching church, that I'd grown up in and where I'd been taught, that only some people would be saved and the rest going to hell. But later in life, God reminded me about how when I was born of God, I wanted/desired for every one to then have the same type of relationship with God/Jesus Christ, as I then had. :-) So I came to see, God had put one desire in me; but then some people had taught me, such was not of God. But later on in life, God freed me from such and taught me better! And I surely thank God for that! :-)
Quote from: ask21771 on May 17, 2016, 02:56:17 AM
why do you people who have "divine revelations" of jesus become things like fundamentalists and not universal salvation
Ronny to Ask:
I first became a fundamentalist or what I call an ultra-fundamentalist, because I grew up in a church, that taught that way. And I was also taught the lie and sin in that church, that whatever I heard from our pulpit and from our main church elders, was one and the same, as my hearing the same and that straight from God. And in fact, I wrongly believed for four years, that I was a Christian. Believed that way, 4 years before I was actually born of God. Why? Because I was made to feel extreme guilt, by some church people. Then I went up at church in tears, believing everything the preacher told me about God,Jesus Christ, the bible, etc,etc. He believed I had been saved and was a Christian, so of course, I believed the same. Then a week later, I was baptized and became a local church member. I had no doubt; but that I was a Christian and believed that, until God told me better, four years later. But during those 4 years, I completely believed I was saved, was a Christian, when in fact, I was merely a wet Baptist. :-)
Now when I was born of God, at 16 years old, God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness. Ironically, the selfrighteousness, I'd been taught in church. And in the year after that, I was back at my home church and again, fell back into that some. Fell back into thinking I was better tnan some people, because of the church, I was a member of. But then, God graciously knocked me upside the head again and caused me to see better! :-) But even after that, I still believed most of the teachings of my local church, had to be right. That's why I believed in hell and that most people were going there. But, that was also something I could think on much and stay sane! :-(
So the best I see it, a person can be born of God and yet go on to believe any number of things, that are not true. But then over time, God/ Jesus Christ, teaches us better. :-)
hi! I found God in the Rocky Mountains.. I had been studying world religions and meditation and astrology.. One day I was sitting on the side of a mountain (we were camping in the foothills) and it seemed like I could see a thought drift across the very blue sky and it hit me in the head. What it said was "you've been learning about all the different forces at work in the universe, what about the force that created the universe? And what if that force has consciousness?"
Immediately I thought "God!".. Like a light bulb turning on. And it seemed like I could feel the presence of one I had always known...
For a while when I was in the mountains (or nature) there He was.. but back to town.. there He wasn't.. One day I picked up a bible tract at the local post office, titled, "God's Great Plan Of Salvation". It was all about Jesus.. I said the 'salvation prayer' but was thinking, can this be true? For me? After the fourth time I said the prayer and then "is this true?" a stream of light shone through a half inch of curtain - the sun was going down over the mountains.. and it shone across the room and filled the off television with a radiant 8 rayed star. Now this "star" (in a blue sky) was my meditation symbol. A friend and I had been taking meditation classes.
[Yes i gave all that up after becoming a believer.. except I was an astrologer for a while, nonprofessional, and if I could have been a christian astrologer I would have, but I gave it up because God's Word is more important to me. I'm a nonconformist but I didn't want to push my luck? I wasn't into the 'fortune telling' type of astrology anyway..]
Later I realized this was the same star the wise men are said to have followed.. according to our illustrations.. and some say the wise men were astrologers..
After seeing the star on the television screen I no longer doubted.. Started reading the New Testament and getting to know Jesus. And the Father whom I met in the mountains was a bit in the background for many years.. until coming to tentmaker forums and having universal salvation confirmed.. Then the Father seemed to blossom in my heart once again..
I've had a wonderful 36 years as a believer.. I've been mostly a spiritual hermit.. I couldn't take to church.. You know, when you get in with a group there's unseen or unrecognized pressure to conform.. (And then there's the seen, applied pressure!)
It's a puzzle to me how untrue weavings.. tapestries of untruth, can hold such sway over people. Of course I understand in a way, what with having been born a sinner into untruth, like all of us humans were. But 'hell' and inherent immortality.. and 'scientific' (so called) atheism.. all obvious fabrications.. Or rather, faulty reasonings.. But hold such strong sway.. Like an enchantment.. or mob/peer mentality!
Welcome to tentmaker forum! This is a great thread! :gsmile: God bless!!
P.S. - I never believed in 'hell'.. wondered about annihilation-ism for a bit because of the wheat and tares.. but that seemed illogical as to where such thinking eventually leads.. (good seed and bad seed). Then my son asked me two questions! Seventeen years ago, which I answered but not to my satisfaction so I prayed for better answers / understanding and wow the answers knocked my socks off, convinced me of universal reconciliation, and my socks are still knocked off. His questions? "Why did God put the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" :smile: ("A cynic is a frustrated idealist.") When I truly and consciously realized God can only be perfect, all things fit together, to my mind, like a perfect ...masterpiece!
Always at least a Christian in name, sometimes in name only. It was to a large extent the UR problem that drove me towards agnosticism at times.
Raised Catholic, I could not reconcile Christ' supreme sacrifice with the teachings of the church. It seemed to me the church was cheapening the act through exclusion.
Finding out that others shared similar views was a wonder.
Quote from: Dandelion on May 16, 2016, 07:30:40 PM
All my life........and taught that hell was a great idea for people who didn't agree
with you, to go. :LH:
D.
On a more serious note, yes, I have always been a believer and always had faith in God. My Christian views have changed over the years, yet the core of what I believe, remains the same. I don't know why someone would be concerned with a Christian view of Hell, if they didn't believe in Christianity. I would think the issue would be irrelevant, if one didn't first believe in the Christian view of Jesus as our Savior, and all that proceeds from that belief. As eaglesway said, we do not believe in Universalism, in the sense that all will be saved, whatever their beliefs, and without being held accountable to the Scriptures of the Bible. This site is for Christian Universalists.
The Bible states that there is a high 'penalty' for anyone 'changing' any of the scripture. That is one of the main reasons why Christian Universalists are often 'condemned' among their own Christians. We are often viewed as heretics, as Hell is a basic premise for the great majority of Christians, of all mainstream denominations and non-denominations. We are thought of as 'corrupting' the teachings of the Bible.
However, as you will discover here, many of the scripture that supports our belief, has been overlooked or misinterpreted. Also, over the centuries, words have been taken from Greek and Roman mythology, and used interchangeably with Old Testament words, which do not have the same meaning. And, what I have come to see as most importantly, the concept of Hell is not in keeping with the God that many of us have come to know, through the Bible and the teachings of the Holy Spirit to us.
Have a wonderful journey!
D.
P.S. - cups - why does the psalmist's cup runneth over? (Ps 23:5) ...Because the Lord is His shepherd..
his "cup runs over".. it seems to me is another way of saying his heart overflows..
But what is in the Book of Revelation harlot's heart? (cup) fornication, adultery, perversions, even murders.. which is the same which is the side effects of 'her' "pornos", fornications, adulteries, perversions, murders, abortions, the dissolution of family and society ("ruining the earth") [we say 'her' and 'she' but the majority of man's empire was built by men - or that is to say at least 50% :smile: ]
later! God bless..
i've heard stories about people like atheists and people from other religions getting divine revelations about jesus and turning christian which faction of christianity do they usually go to
Quote from: ask21771 on May 16, 2016, 06:42:02 PM
was everyone here already a christian beofre they became a universal
yes, I was a born again Christian before becoming UR...but a bit of a fearful believer...I believe far more in God's love now..i mean I really BELIEVE He IS Love now..and that all will ultimately be OK in the end..for everyone. :dsunny:
:banana: No doubt!
i've heard stories about people like atheists and people from other religions getting divine revelations about jesus and turning christian which faction of christianity do they usually go to
Hopefully, they go wherever God leads.....or to whatever group appears more interesting, for whatever reason, to them. I don't think there is any set pattern.
D.
Quote from: ask21771 on May 23, 2016, 07:38:47 PM
i've heard stories about people like atheists and people from other religions getting divine revelations about jesus and turning christian which faction of christianity do they usually go to
Many claim visions.
Are they talking about the same Christ, or their version?
Christ states many will do much "In His name, yet he never knew them.
The antichrist will do so many miracles the Jews will think he is the real Christ.
Seems we are told to check them out before agreeing with them.
1 John 4;1-3 " Dear friends do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to find whether they are from God, because MANY false
prophets have gone out into the world.
This is how you can recognise the Spirit of God;
- every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is
from God;
-every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit
of the antichrist, which you heard was coming, and is now already in the
world."