Tentmaker Forum

One of the " Thrills of Fellowship", is the opportunity to see whats on others mind. What someone other than yourself is thinking. You can observe whats comming out of people. A suggestion was brought into the open, that the phrase " The Word of God", does not really mean the Bible, since Gods word existed before the bible was written. An interesting premise, which I think is looking at one side of a pancake, and then making an issue out of the other side of the pancake being totally different than its oppisite side. Both are sides of the same thing.

In Matthews 4:4, again Jesus;"It is written, Man shallnot live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God." Now if the bible is not the Word of God, then I would like to know just how humanity is supposed to know how to live? What was Jesus speaking about here?

Jesus was talking about how " MEN are to Live", humans, he wasNOT speaking about things God has to say when humans are not privy to listening. Or not priviledged to at least reading about what God has to say. He was talking about Living according to the " Word of God", and I see no other Word ofGod than the Bible.

And I wanted to go into this topic a little further.

Peace.

Quote
In Matthews 4:4, again Jesus;"It is written, Man shallnot live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God." Now if the bible is not the Word of God, then I would like to know just how humanity is supposed to know how to live? What was Jesus speaking about here?

What I believe is the bible is Gods word made flesh so that there is some comprehension in this state of being to what God even "is".   I refer to the 1 chapter of John.

Humanity doesn't have to actually know how to live as how anyone lives was predestined by God in the first place. 

Verses such as Proverbs 16:9 does not distinguish a context to "only believers" because of Proverbs 16:4

Pr 16:4 . The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If God made all things for himself, then the sustenance of our existance is explained in John.


Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men

Jn 1:9 It was the true light--which is enlightening every man--coming into the world.


Religion can try to tell us that our coming to believe is a choice apart from Christ.

I argue that this light is the manner, that we can understand, in which every man will be drawn to believe through Christ.

IMO, Jesus manifesting The Word in the flesh does not then negate the logos (written) and rhema (revealed/spoken) words of God from also being the Word.  There is nothing I know of in scripture that says God's words (thought and/or spoken) are not His Word.  Jesus brought it into flesh, walked and dwelt among us.  I believe people stumble over that point of Jesus manifesting/becoming the Word and lose sight of the rest of it...sort of what you said Mickiel wrt the pancake.  IMO, you cannot separate Jesus, the logos, the rhema...they are the substance of God, they are part and parcel, they are "The Word".  All God's thoughts, His statements, His Son are, IMO, the Truths of God, in essence, the Word of God.

IMO, the danger of separating these things from each other in our minds then leaves us open to beginning to attempt to come up with our own ideas, doctrines, and often the resultant error, as we no longer revere scripture as the inspired Word to live by that I believe it is...accurately translated, properly divided (interpreted), Spirit revealed.

Psalms 119:89...To the age, O Jehovah, Thy word (logos) is set up in the heavens (YLT).  Unfortunately some will do so, but IMO, that one verse alone is inarguable wrt God's Word.

God's blessing, James. 

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 16, 2008, 07:38:32 PM

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In Matthews 4:4, again Jesus;"It is written, Man shallnot live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God." Now if the bible is not the Word of God, then I would like to know just how humanity is supposed to know how to live? What was Jesus speaking about here?

What I believe is the bible is Gods word made flesh so that there is some comprehension in this state of being to what God even "is".   I refer to the 1 chapter of John.

Humanity doesn't have to actually know how to live as how anyone lives was predestined by God in the first place. 

Verses such as Proverbs 16:9 does not distinguish a context to "only believers" because of Proverbs 16:4

Pr 16:4 . The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If God made all things for himself, then the sustenance of our existance is explained in John.


Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men

Jn 1:9 It was the true light--which is enlightening every man--coming into the world.


Religion can try to tell us that our coming to believe is a choice apart from Christ.

I argue that this light is the manner, that we can understand, in which every man will be drawn to believe through Christ.

Well you seem to be thinking as I do, along the lines of how humans come to know God, its a God thing, not a human choice thing. I think its impossible for a human to " Open the doors of Heaven themselves", and then milk heaven of its blessings, as one would milk a Cow. I think man has a Will, and a choice naturally evolves from that,  but because God cannot be readily seen " Tinkering with our premeditated Will", then we tend to credit ourselves with more than we should, and then conversely blaming ourselves more than we should for certain " Unknown things" that happen to us.

We live because of God, we think because of God, we move and have our senses because of God, but because we are human, its easy to think these things are " Because of ourselves." Yet " The Self" IS Gods gift to man, our individuality IS important, we are individual beings , thus in need of self realization, but to what degree God imposes on the self, is just as often unseen, so we can take credit or leave it, either way one still would find it hard to determine where God becomes involved directly or indirectly. But I tend to think even when God is not involved directly, somewhere along the lines, you can bet he still is at the base root of all things. Its really no way around him.

Given this, one can view the bible as a very instrumental influence on humanity, directly or indirectly, all things are a result of Gods Word. Spoken or written, Gods word IS life, and nothing can be seperate from it. Not really.

Peace.

Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2008, 08:04:29 PM
IMO, Jesus manifesting The Word in the flesh does not then negate the logos (written) and rhema (revealed/spoken) words of God from also being the Word.  There is nothing I know of in scripture that says God's words (thought and/or spoken) are not His Word.  Jesus brought it into flesh, walked and dwelt among us.  I believe people stumble over that point of Jesus manifesting/becoming the Word and lose sight of the rest of it...sort of what you said Mickiel wrt the pancake.  IMO, you cannot separate Jesus, the logos, the rhema...they are the substance of God, they are part and parcel, they are "The Word".  All God's thoughts, His statements, His Son are, IMO, the Truths of God, in essence, the Word of God.

IMO, the danger of separating these things from each other in our minds then leaves us open to beginning to attempt to come up with our own ideas, doctrines, and often the resultant error, as we no longer revere scripture as the inspired Word to live by that I believe it is...accurately translated, properly divided (interpreted), Spirit revealed.

Psalms 119:89...To the age, O Jehovah, Thy word (logos) is set up in the heavens (YLT).  Unfortunately some will do so, but IMO, that one verse alone is inarguable wrt God's Word.

God's blessing, James. 

Again, I agree. Mans effort to seperate church and state is " A man thing", but is that a God thing? When humans seperate things, well thats one thing, but when God seperates things, well thats another. Yet even when God seperates things, like he did with Light and Darkness, can we see the seperation like he does? Or see WHy the seperation? I can't stand outside and pinpoint when light seperates from darkness. They just seem to blend in and out at the moments that they do. So it is with Gods written and spoken word, why should I try to figure out the when and why of the seperation of Jesus words, Gods Words, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit influencing?

Trying to map the human gene cells was a hard job, but trying to seperate the Words of God and construct a map of that, I tend to think is impossible, and futile.

Peace.

Hi James,


I do not intend to negate the bible or suggest that it is not of God.  My comment about it realizes the reality that we do not have the originals, nor are we completely in understanding of the culture and the full understanding of an ancient language that we are far removed from.

I understand the excuses such as ones PT brings to the table that allows him to manipulate the contradictions in his theology as if they do not exist.  

But I think that it is accurate to say that the bible is the best physical representation God has allowed us to have in order to understand what God wants us to know in this state of existance.  But as it is also in the world, then it is not whole and perfect no more than we are.

The word of God is the spoken word of the mind of Christ.  It was there in the beginning with God and it was God.

God speaks everything into existence.  That is how he creates.

The spoken word is extremely powerful, most especially the word of God.

The first attribute God gives Adam is the Holy Spirit (breath of God), the second is language,-- syllables, words,  formed by the breath.

The Word is given to the prophets of the Old Testament by hearing, and the Word becomes flesh with Jesus in the New Testament.  

Now that the Word has become flesh, it is available to all who would receive it.


4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

6The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger [ANGEL] of the LORD of hosts.

8But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Malachi 2





Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


[The word become flesh, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.]

Hi Molly.  I agree with everything you've said, but also again, have to interject Ps. 119:89..."thy Word (logos) is forever settled...".

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 16, 2008, 08:27:08 PM
Hi James,
I do not intend to negate the bible or suggest that it is not of God.  My comment about it realizes the reality that we do not have the originals,  But as it is also in the world, then it is not whole and perfect no more than we are.

Hi Paul.  Same thoughts here wrt  your statements.  I believe I know your heart, and that you do have respect for the scriptures.  However, I also believe we need to be very careful in this area, that we can easily get on a slippery slope that some will use for license to begin to negate scripture and come up with their own apostacies.  I agree, we obviously don't have the originals.  However, there is a tremendous amount of reverence within scripture, that scripture gives to itself, including for instance, Ps. 119:89.  IMO, this verse cannot be explained away, so our reasoning has to somehow reconcile to this.  To do so,  I go this route; I believe the original words spoken by God, were totally, purely perfect.  Man's hands wrote it down, with all our frailties and imperfections.  But God's hand was still on it, because He gave us what He wants us to know.  However, I also believe in progressive revelation, as and when God wills.  So, to me that means He uses what He gave us, and then shows us more about it, including translational issues, as well as revelation about what's there.  But within those pages is still God's voice, in written form, although He may continue to clarify it for us...but it's my stance, that that will never be against actual scripture (excluding any corruptions, mistranslations).  The oldest manuscripts agree up to 99%, which to me, means if we were able, we could eventually have a translation that is very close to what was actually originally transcribed.  So, I believe we have God's logos, that He's protected it and will continue allowing us to see more and more of it as suits His purpose.  So again, IMO, the logos (written), the rhema (spoken/revealed---although there is evidence those words are actually used interchangeably rather than the hairs we try to split with it sometimes), and Jesus manifesting in flesh---as Molly said, God's thoughts---which I like to refer to as the Truths of God---is The Word of God. 

God's blessing, James.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Whenever we speak the truth about anything, we are worshipping the Father.  When our native language becomes the truth, we are becoming the word of God.

Concerning the Word of God, there is a componant involved that needs to be understood, such as " Righteousness, or even the calling of God." God has given his Word already, and continues to give it, but that does not mean it will be reconized and perceived as such. The calling of God, or even Righteousness, does not mean Gods Word will be readily reconized as being his Word. Jesus again in Matthews 13:17;"For truly I say unto you ( and keep in mind this is a private explination to his disciples) that many Prophets and Righteous men desired to see what you see, and didnot see it. And to hear what you hear and didnot hear it." Being called of God, or being a Prophet, or being righteous, or one who obeys Gods Word as you know it, does not mean even you will reconize Gods Word, as being Gods Word.

Even a called out person, even a teacher of Gods Word, even an obedient follower of God, holds no garentee that they will always reconize Gods Word, as being Gods Word. And this conversation was prompted by followers of God who suggest that the bible is not the Word of God in some areas. Its not that they are blind, its just that the dispensation of Truth is directed by God to flow as God desires it to flow. The diciples were placed in a position of " Having to know and Believe certain things", certain things that even prophets before them held no need , in Gods eyes, to be aware of. Conversely, we who now live have been placed in a " Position to know certain things that those before us held no need to know." Those after us will continue in this pattern. But as " The need to know increases", so will the adverse effects of that reality continue.

The adverse effects includes the oppisition to the truth and its effort to pervert the truth, its deception must also evolve in order to try to compensate for what God is doing. It must continue to try to capture righteous minds and deceive, it must still go after prophets, it must still seek to distort teachers, some of which don't even yet know they are prophets and teachers.

The Word of God is the foundation of Truth, and that foundation will continually be attacked and efforts made to water it down.

Peace.

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

--2 Cor 3



Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.



"epistle"

G1992
ἐπιστολή
epistolē
ep-is-tol-ay'
From G1989; a written message: - "epistle", letter.



G1989
ἐπιστέλλω
epistellō
ep-ee-stel'-lo
From G1909 and G4724; to enjoin (by writing), that is, (generally) to communicate by letter (for any purpose): - write (a letter, unto).


We are the epistle of Christ--God's word written on our hearts and mind, enjoined to the saints by the Word of God.
:mshock:

:bgdance:

I've heard a similar statement by quite a few scholars over the years.  Just the other day heard Josh McDowell make the statement like this:  You can take every single ancient manuscript of the New Testament and destroy it, and within 150 to 200 years of the writing of the New Testament, it's possible to reconstruct all but 11 verses of the New Testament by using the writings of the early Church Fathers where in their sermons, journals, epistles, etc., they quoted the New Testament thousands of times.  There is zero reason to ever question the veracity of the New Testament because of that historical fact.

One of PT's favorite verses is the one where Paul's saying that though they're regarded as deceivers, they're speaking the truth.  He puts an odd spin on that verse as though he were relishing the Platonic doctrine of Reserve that some of the early Church Fathers got into about lying to the Church being acceptable if it protected the flock from sin, from wandering away from the teachings of Christ, etc.  St. Paul was not saying that he was on a mission from God to be a liar in some contexts so that the glory of God would in some demented/twisted way be furthered by that.  If he couldn't get into deeper aspects of the Covenants because of the maturity level of the believers, then he'd simply clam up or go back over and over the same things about the crucifixion without necessarily getting into the deeper implications and ramifications of that where life for absolutely all would abound.  Or he'd just move on to the next town to evangelize and start a Church while the previous fellowship that he taught would be left in the hands of the Holy Spirit and of someone he ordained to lead so that they could work out the implications of their own salvation with fear and trembling.

I'm still comforted by the fact that it was one of the Churches with the most problems in the New Testament -- Corinth -- that got the complete revelation of 1Corinthians 15.  That tells me something about the nature of our Lord.  Even when we're at our worst or our most feeble, He'll still see to it that the truth is left in our hands as a seed for the day that we're really ready for it.  We can be the most irresponsible teenagers and the keys to the new Jaguar or Bentley are there waiting for us for when we show even the slightest incling of genuinely being ready to stop killing ourselves and those around us so we can go to all of the places that He has for us in life.

The Word of God is constant and true, comming from his mouth, but our perception OF IT is not constant, which affects the truth of it to us. As in the analogy of the Pancake, one side of it may seem different than the other side of it, one may cook it different than another, others may instill different ingredients, but it is, at its root, still a pancake. The Word of God will always be the Word of God, no matter what we do with it. No matter how we perceive it, no matter how one understands it, no matter how differently it affects each individual, it still is what it is, it is we who are different.

What God brings new to our understanding, is still from the same Word he has spoken long ago, and still what he speaks now, because he does not change. Again Jesus in Matt. 13:52, we bring forth out from the treasure of Gods Word, things OLD and things NEW! We are a new creation, but yes, Gods Word is  old in one sense, but new to us in another.

But you know I have often wondered , in considering the mind of God, just what new things he comes up with in his mind. Now that is a thought. Something new in Gods figuring of things.

Well humanity is just that, something new in Gods mind. Jesus made into flesh, something new in Gods mind, a bible for humanity, again, something new in Gods mind. A bible, a treasure with things old and new.

Peace.

Agree, Mickiel and Martin.

Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2008, 10:12:14 PM
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Whenever we speak the truth about anything, we are worshipping the Father.  When our native language becomes the truth, we are becoming the word of God.

Hi Molly.  I understand this a little differently, in that yes, we are to worship in spirit and truth, and we can only really understand scripture, the Word (logos, rhema, Jesus, God's thoughts/truths) unless and until it's Holy Spirit revealed.  However, as far as us becoming the word of God, I don't make that connection.  I see it more as us sharing the Word of God.  What other thoughts do you have on that that might clarify it? 

Also, what's your specific POV wrt Psalm 119:89?  My understanding is that God's Word is Jesus, but it's also every truth of God, including His logos.  Jesus manifested all of God.  Thanks, James.

Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2008, 10:43:50 PM
We are the epistle of Christ--God's word written on our hearts and mind, enjoined to the saints by the Word of God.
:mshock:

:bgdance:

:goodpost: The KJV says in the book of Acts, concerning a big revival that had broken out and people getting saved that "the Word of God multiplied."  We were born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God that liveth and abideth to the age.  The Word of God became flesh and walked among us, and when someone is born again, the Word of God becomes flesh and walks among us :Sparkletooth:

Oh, I know of more than one preacher that's had a dirty book written about/against them because of this, but we are predestined to be comformed to the image of Jesus Christ.  The Holy Spirit writes His laws upon our hearts and dwells in us and walks in us, He's our God, and we're His people.  Lord Jesus, in Your High Priestly ministry, keep writing on the scroll of my life pleeeeeeeeeez :cloud9:

Yes, I agree with everyone.


With Martin-- because this is talking about a group of people--

Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.


Acts 12:24
But the word of God grew and multiplied.


With Jab, regarding every word in the Bible--


Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



89For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.--Psa 119


And, moreso settled because he is the alpha and the omega--

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


With Mickiel regarding something old and something new--

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.


We get the old from God and, also, the new--

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. --Rev 21



The Lord Jesus is the Word of God, the Word become flesh, with God and was God, the beginning and the end,  and the firstborn of many brothers.

He does it all!

Brother Martin and Sister Molly.  Thanks for exploring within scripture, blessings to you.  I do have a bit of a doctrinal hair to split with this, see what you think.  I see Acts 6:7 saying at least 2 different (though connected) things.  Yes, it was talking about a group of people, but not that group as being The Word.  The Greek Interlinear bears that out, as it refers to the logos spreading, so then more disciples (learners) were made.  It says "kai ho logos ho theos auxanO kai plEthunO ho arithmos ho mathEtEs", translated as "and the saying/word of-the God grows-up and was multiplied the number of the learners/disciples".  So, again, doctrinally, I don't see us as being the Word of God, but rather spreading/sharing the Word of God.  God living in us, us being His sons and daughters, but I don't see us as being divine.  Aren't we partakers of the divine because He allows it and has grafted us in, but still we're not the Divine?  What say ye?  Do you have more to 'da story?  Mickiel and others, what do you see here?  God's blessings, James.

Thoughts are formed by words within the mind--




16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

--1 Cor 2



5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

--Phil 2



4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

--Eph 2

Of course there's the 82nd Psalm that Jesus interpreted for us in John chapter 10.  And we're under a better covenant established upon better promises according to the book of Hebrews.  When Jesus breathed upon the disciples, the image and likeness of God was restored in the earth after the mar of sin.  And as you know, the blazing inferno that Moses couldn't look at and live came right in and sat upon each of them on the day of Pentecost and they were filled with the Holy Spirit and the blazing inferno that John the Baptist talked about Jesus baptizing people with.  Many of us here have had that same experience.  Some of us have even had the Acts 4:31 baptism.  Jesus said in John chapter 17, "Father, the glory which You've given Me, I've given them that they may be One even as We are One."  And of course, 2Peter chapter 1 says:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Oh, this one will get me burned at the stake, but, what else is new?  We have His righteousness, don't we?

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God. (1Corinthians 4:5)


HE TOOK THIS THING FAR ENOUGH TO WHERE HE'S NEVER GOING TO LOSE A SINGLE ONE OF US EVER AGAIN.  JESUS WAS AND IS THE RANSOM.  WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU WORTH TO GOD??


Compare 1Corinthians 4:5 (quoted above) with this passage:


17 The LORD your God is with you,
       he is mighty to save.
       He will take great delight in you,
       he will quiet you with his love,
       he will rejoice over you with singing.
(Zephaniah 3:17 NIV)

17 The LORD your God is in your midst,
         A victorious warrior
         He will exult over you with joy,
         He will be quiet in His love,
         He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy.
(Zephaniah 3:17 NASB)

Martin, I'm all out of stakes today...and I'm sure you don't want a steak...God loves us, that's for sure. 

James, leading the chorus; sing along

Thou Art Worthy.
Thou Art Worthy.
Thou Art Worthy, Oh Lord
To Receive Glory, Glory and Honor.
Glory and Honor and Power.
For Thou Hast Created, Hast All Things Created.
For Thou Hast Created All Things.
And for Thy Pleasure, They Are Created.
Thou Art Worthy, Oh Lord.

God's blessing, James.

5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [Yehôvâh Tsedeq]



--Jer 23

James,

I certainly understand that slippery slope, I just think it can be on both sides.

There are those continually trying to water down the validity of the bible in order to build the case that there is nothing more significant to the bible that reading any other book.

On the other hand,  The word of God in most conversations is talking about the bible.  the conversation may progress to clarify things more specifically, but the first assumption is that the bible is the word of God.  Ok, so then, with that assumption we can show that most if not all translations of the bible have been revised.  Those revisions are necessary to correct errors.

The logical and reasonable conclusion is that if man translated the bible and there are errors, then what errors are in the manuscripts we have since they are reasoned to have been written by men.


Since the claim of inerrancy is a key factor in the bibles authority, there is the slippery slope I was talking about.  If doubt can be cast upon that claim, then the fight for spiritual survival is to preserve the assertion.


So, is it possible, that a book that may not be perfect, as we might assert what perfection should be still have authority in our lives?

I believe it can.

The solution to me is I want to live my life by the bible because of the story I believe it contains.  And that story is that ALL will be reconciled unto a supreme spiritual being that is inherantly LOVE. 

That story applies to EVERYONE like no other philosphy that exists.

And that is that this life is worth something and it matters nothing of the ability of any person to give it that purpose.   

The argument of inerrancy can be tossed aside as meaningless.

Again, the earliest manuscripts agree up to 99%, so IMO, that's very significant.  I don't use the term inerrancy, I use the terms trustworthiness, sufficient, and inspired, which is what scripture says about itself.  And again, IMO, the Word of God is God's Truths, in whatever form He chooses to present them...logos, rhema, His Son in flesh...It seems to me that if we don't accept what scripture says about itself, that God's logos is set to the ages, then anything can be questioned or disputed, including the "story" to which you allude.  By God's grace I maintain it's more than a story...it's part of the Word of God, and it is settled in the heavens.  James.

One of the reasons why I lean towards inerrancy is because of my upbringing.  I grew up where that was dogma #1.  My second reason for leaning towards that is that I'm UR.  It was a foregone conclusion with me that I would not accept the doctrine if there were two or three verses that I couldn't account for in the entire Bible because "by the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established."  Were the perfection of the Bible in jeapardy, my reasoning is that it would have been the absolute best goods that would have been compromised and I'd of been another person like C.S. Lewis and others who would have said "well, you can't ever genuinely really know until judgment day!" 

I would expect the same variations between Kings, Chronicles, and Samuel's two books as I would expect of the 4 Gospels that if we're talking about different eye-witnesses to the events, then different people would emphasize different things.  And if the stories were taken down too perfectly, then we'd of been more prone to figure that someone made it all up!

When people say that the Bible has errors, I've yet to find a single one of their "errors" to be something other than either translational issues, things in the Psalms, prophets, and Solomon's writings that they just honestly didn't understand what was being talked about, or the type of differences you'd expect between different witnesses to the same events that didn't compare notes before they told their stories.  There's a question about whether a verse in 1John 5 is in the earliest manuscripts, along with the situation with the woman taken in the act of adultery, a portion of the Great Commission in Mark 16, and one or two other passages as to whether they're genuinely a part of the earliest manuscripts.  There's the occasional question between different copies of manuscripts about the spelling of a name, and whether Revelation 13's prophecy should be read as 616 or 666.  The variations are not doctrinally relevant questions from the standpoint that there's not a single doctrine that I can think of that any group in Christianity holds to that's in the least bit of jeapardy.  BTW: the correct number for Revelation 13 is very likely 666 because of how 666 is used elsewhere in the Bible, but I won't get into that here 'cause I don't have a Concordance handy for looking up the passages in question and 'cause it's after 2am where I'm at.

When people say that the Bible is inerrant, 95% of the people that are saying that based upon what they've looked into are making that assessment regarding what you can dig out of the Bible doctrinally, historically, philosophically (as each context and situation is taken into consideration for it's parameters), scientifically (again, rightly translated), and regarding it's consistency with regards to it's description of the Creation event, the crucifixion and resurrection, and eschatological matters.  It's usually not a claim to every single detail of every single ancient manuscript being essentially identical, but that all important matters are reconstructable by the translators who have the oldest and most reliable manuscripts with which to compare variant readings with their current understanding of what the Bible teaches for the finer points on a number, a name, or a symbol.  Because we're all at different levels of light on the purposes of God, obviously the harmony of different portions of the Bible are going to be most important to us as opposed to what might be deemed essential by the Church down the street from the ancient manuscripts.  All of us in Christianity have all of these wide ranging and sometimes opposite doctrines from one another, and yet each of us are able to still agree upon the 66 books of the Judeo-Christian Bible.  That is a degree of harmony and veracity in the ancient manuscripts that I genuinely don't think that 90% of Universalists ever really think through and appreciate for just a minute.

The miracle isn't just in how few and far between minor variations are, but in the fact that throughout the last 20 centuries we've not had huge religious wars over the inclusion of the book of Enoch or the general Epistle of Barnabas, or Clement of Rome's 1st epistle, or the odes of Solomon, etc.  Some have wanted to toss 2nd and 3rd John, Revelation, James, and one or two other epistles out, but although there have been brutal murders over every other area of faith and practice, I don't think that just tons and tons of blood shed occured over those particular questions about what's included in our New Testament.  I could be totally wrong about that, but to my knowledge there's been a surprising degree of agreement on which books of the Bible, even if there have been very violent squabbles over what each of those books actually taught and whether or not the common masses had a right to a copy in their own language. 

I don't buy these stories that ancient priests adulterated it as badly as some books have claimed 'cause remember:  the Bible wasn't in the hands of the people and the Church at one point never intended for the masses to ever get their hands on it.  It was considered TOP SECRET; CLASSIFIED, etc.  And because the Church was sooo early divided between the Eastern and Western Orthodox, how would you have gotten those two earliest denominations to have agreed upon how to adulterate it?  There's a lot of questions like that that I've never seen conspiracy theorists and historical revisionists successfully deal with.

 Hello all,   
My contention is not to undermine the bible, but to point out that the bible itself (by the wisdom contained therein) steers us away from deifying itself. A key verse is John 5:39 "search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. But it is these which testify about me". So then if the scriptures are literally the "Word of God" why couldn't eternal life be found in them? Because they simply testified of the Living Word which was to come. The bible is a path TO the Word.   

Another key verse is John 16:13 "However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come".

Another is 1st John 2:27: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him". So the bible serves to point us to receive the anointing and to the know Him who is the Word, not to itself be the Word. To deify the bible as the literal Word of God is un-biblical and is idolatry -  exactly what the bible warns against!

John 6:67: Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life". They knew they could no longer fall back upon the shadow of Him whom the scriptures said was to come. He was now here.

John 16:2: "They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service". Why would they be put out and even killed? Because they claimed someone greater than Moses was here, someone greater than what was perceived to be the "Word of God" by the mainstream religion of the day.

I must say that the same exists today. There are scores of churches and seminaries who reverence the bible as the absolute authority in all things, and from it they form the world view of an angry wrathful God who is ready and more than willing to obliterate mankind from His presence forever. So, even they know the bible forwards and backwards they don't know the Word . They camp out on the door which leads them to the Word and proclaim that the door IS the Word and so remain in spiritual darkness.

The best example I know are Calvinists. By the bible they systematically prove that most humans are hated by God as His non-elect (as He hated Esau) and that God only loves those whom He pre-elected to love. And the great purpose is to show His power and greatness and to show that He can do whatever He wants. What's missing from all this? It's all in the bible for sure - but they stopped there. They did not go through the door to know the "Word of God".

I hope this helps some to understand that I am not anti-bible, in fact, I believe what I am saying is promoted in scripture.

During the reformation the myth of papal infallibility was exposed. But the protestants elected a new infallible idol to worship, a new kind of 'pope' if you will. Most don't want to speak to God and hear from Him personally. Like the children of Israel - they want a leader to do that for them and read a book to learn about God but keep God Himself at a distance. How do I know He is distant to many? Because they say things like "How could we know anything about God if not for this book?" That tells me volumes right there.

Professional preachers say "The bible is the Word of God!" over and over and over many thousands of times a day, as if saying it over an over makes it true. That's why it is so hard to speak to the contrary. 

I have spent countless hours studying scripture. A friend supported me for a full year when I first came to Christ so that I could fast and study day and night. I love love LOVE my bibles - all of them, because they all lead me to the "Word of God". 

blessings,
- Byron

PS "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now". - Jesus

The Bible is the word of God because it is written by people who say things like this:



1The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. --Jeremiah 1



1The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. --Hosea 1



1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: --Rev 1



1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, ...--Exo 32



18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.--Exo 32



Including eyewitnesses who documented the words of Jesus when the Word became flesh and walked among us.

 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

--John 1



1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

--Genesis 1


The phrase "And God said" is used 9 times in the first chapter of Genesis.



[And God] "said"
H559
אמר
'âmar
aw-mar'
A primitive root; to say (used with great latitude): - answer, appoint, avouch, bid, boast self, call, certify, challenge, charge, + (at the, give) command (ment), commune, consider, declare, demand, X desire, determine, X expressly, X indeed, X intend, name, X plainly, promise, publish, report, require, say, speak (against, of), X still, X suppose, talk, tell, term, X that is, X think, use [speech], utter, X verily, X yet.


3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.--Hebrews 11

Molly, very well said. 

IMO, there is a lack of understanding, including the continued attempt to which I've alluded, to separate God's Truths, His Word, into segments from itself.  Some do this out of convenience/deceit, some because they've been negatively influenced by the former.  I've yet to have 1 person who holds that similar view address, or even acknowledge Psalm 119:89 wrt the logos.  It's as if it doesn't exist.  Instead, diversions are brought into the conversation such as the crusaders killing people while "clinging to the Bible", as if it's the belief in the authority of scripture that's to blame.  I don't believe those are accurate analogies to individuals that are called believers, that God has caused to see the inspiration of, and hold reverence for, God's Word.  I've also never had anyone be able to show where Jesus manifesting the logos in the flesh then negates the logos from continuing to be God's Word.  How is Psalm 119:89 explained away, or is it to be simply ignored? 

All of us have had negative past experiences, including knowing folks that will attempt to misuse anything.  However, one of our challenges is to not let that hurt drive us away from things that are true, things that perhaps someone unfortunately abused or exploited, but yet something that still remains vital to ours and others spiritual well-being.

Yeah, it's the traditions of men that make the commandments of God of none effect.  Preachers say a lot of things everyday, but we must still test it by Scripture as the Bereans did.  If I remember right, they were considered of more noble character than the Thessalonians for doing so.  The Pharisees weren't clinging to the Book.  They were clinging to their traditions about the book.  Calvinists have essentially done the same thing with merging Augustine with the preaching of Calvin in the name of "sound doctrine."  Although they'll cite proof texts, that's not to say that they're being faithful to the Spirit of the Word.  And since I seem to need to clarify.  Although they'll cite proof texts, that's not to say that they're being faithful to the Spirit of the Written Word.  Peter called it a more sure Word of prophecy than their own eye-witness testimony of His Majesty when they were with Him on the Holy Mount.  Peter said you'd do good to take heed to it as a light that shines in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the Morning Star arises in your hearts.  As Andrew Jukes noted about the Word in the first chapter of Restitution of all things, the Book is essentially the same as the Flesh Body of Jesus Christ.  You can prove it's human, thoroughly human as any mere person working in a morgue could have proven.  But it's no less thoroughly divine.  And I don't think that Andrew Jukes can be accused of not knowing the Lord of the Book because of his reverence for the Book.  If having the Book as first priority and final authority in my life makes me an idolater, then everybody just back out of the way while my big butt gets on my knees with the Book 'cause We've got our own thing going on over here :cloud9:

I don't think that the problem's so much the Book as people not being able to perceive the depth to which God can touch you with the Book.  They understand the level to which they've been touched by the Book, but haven't dared to grasp that there are deeper levels even in the Book.  He said He wasn't leaving us as orphans.  We've got both the Spirit and the Book.  And the Spirit, the Word, and the Blood agree as One :cloud9:

Quote from: jabcat on June 17, 2008, 11:35:37 AM
Molly, very well said. 

IMO, there is a lack of understanding, including the continued attempt to which I've alluded, to separate God's Truths, His Word, into segments from itself.  Some do this out of convenience/deceit, some because they've been negatively influenced by the former.  I've yet to have 1 person who holds that similar view address, or even acknowledge Psalm 119:89 wrt the logos.  It's as if it doesn't exist.  Instead, diversions are brought into the conversation such as the crusaders killing people while "clinging to the Bible", as if it's the belief in the authority of scripture that's to blame.  I don't believe those are accurate analogies to individuals that are called believers, that God has caused to see the inspiration of, and hold reverence for, God's Word.  I've also never had anyone be able to show where Jesus manifesting the logos in the flesh then negates the logos from continuing to be God's Word.  How is Psalm 119:89 explained away, or is it to be simply ignored? 

All of us have had negative past experiences, including knowing folks that will attempt to misuse anything.  However, one of our challenges is to not let that hurt drive us away from things that are true, things that perhaps someone unfortunately abused or exploited, but yet something that still remains vital to ours and others spiritual well-being.

I know that we have ages and ages to learn about him, but I cling to every word in the Bible.   The Word is the gateway.


John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Quote from: jabcat on June 17, 2008, 09:49:55 AM
Again, the earliest manuscripts agree up to 99%, so IMO, that's very significant.  I don't use the term inerrancy, I use the terms trustworthiness, sufficient, and inspired, which is what scripture says about itself. 

And I agree with that,  I was only making a point of where those slopes lie.

Quote
And again, IMO, the Word of God is God's Truths, in whatever form He chooses to present them...logos, rhema, His Son in flesh...It seems to me that if we don't accept what scripture says about itself, that God's logos is set to the ages, then anything can be questioned or disputed, including the "story" to which you allude. 

From reading scripture, that belief will be given to us when God has it planned.  As far something being questioned or disputed I will have to say that it already is and we already do.  We as believers in UR dispute ET and vice versa which are points of view derived from the same "Word of God".   

Quote
By God's grace I maintain it's more than a story...it's part of the Word of God, and it is settled in the heavens.  James.

I agree with that also, but I simply do not concern myself that I can prove that undeniably to a critic.  For instance,  PT spends a lot of time in the area of discrediting areas of the bible in order to promote a point of view.  I do not need to prove its credibility to PT, PT shows the ridiculousness of someone who believes something under those circumstances.

Quote from: jabcat on June 17, 2008, 03:32:44 AM
Brother Martin and Sister Molly.  Thanks for exploring within scripture, blessings to you.  I do have a bit of a doctrinal hair to split with this, see what you think.  I see Acts 6:7 saying at least 2 different (though connected) things.  Yes, it was talking about a group of people, but not that group as being The Word.  The Greek Interlinear bears that out, as it refers to the logos spreading, so then more disciples (learners) were made.  It says "kai ho logos ho theos auxanO kai plEthunO ho arithmos ho mathEtEs", translated as "and the saying/word of-the God grows-up and was multiplied the number of the learners/disciples".  So, again, doctrinally, I don't see us as being the Word of God, but rather spreading/sharing the Word of God.  God living in us, us being His sons and daughters, but I don't see us as being divine.  Aren't we partakers of the divine because He allows it and has grafted us in, but still we're not the Divine?  What say ye?  Do you have more to 'da story?  Mickiel and others, what do you see here?  God's blessings, James.

Well I don't see humans as being the Word of God, or extentions of it. But I admit to not being a man who can see all things. I don't see the Kingdom as being here now, but many do. I don't see being born again now, but many do. I don't see a Trinity, but many do. I don't see the bible as not being the word of God, but many do. Rather than try to disprove these things, and call others wrong, I just say that I cannot see these things. I am trying to get away from condemning what others see, and just understand that what they see, is just not for me.

What you see, is what you see, its for you to see and understand. I have actually tried to " Make myself" see the Kingdom of God as being within us now. Just force it down into my belief, but it regurgitates each time. Its like God won't let me believe it. And I'm thinking and telling him" Well everyonelse believes it, why can't I." And each time the answer is the same, its just not for me to believe it. So I understand that God can bring you to a point, that you will believe what he wants you to believe, not what you want to believe. And often your beliefs will isolate you. Everyone believes they are born again, but I stick out like a heritic, because I don't believe it. Eventually you get to the point, that you feel like keeping things to yourself, which effects your witness.

But the Word of God, I think " Resides in us", and it will force itself out. So in that aspect, I would agree that the Word of God can " Be In" a person, which is perhaps why some take it further and call themselves the Word of God. They do so with Gods Kingdom, and say its in them too.

I think this is why I prefer to walk alone Spiritually, because so much is going on, I just don't like letting just anything into my belief. I am Spiritually supersticous, and just don't trust a lot of things.

Peace.

I know people who have never opened a Bible on their own, who used to go to church but no longer do, who have no understanding of theology, or that Jesus even existed before he was born in Bethlehem,  but who have a very real sense of personal relationship with Christ that is evident in the choices they make, the things they say,  and the way they lead their lives.

I think we would have to admit that the moral imperative of God which requires us to look out for another's  interest over our own, whether in laws or attitudes, is not the natural state of man.  Yet, we do see it all the time, and every time I see it, I take note, this would not be possible without God.  Just being able to walk down the street in safety is impressive.  In that sense, at least, I see his kingdom everywhere, vying in competition with the system of the world.

Quote from: Molly on June 17, 2008, 07:51:57 PM
I know people who have never opened a Bible on their own, who used to go to church but no longer do, who have no understanding of theology, or that Jesus even existed before he was born in Bethlehem,  but who have a very real sense of personal relationship with Christ that is evident in the choices they make, the things they say,  and the way they lead their lives.

I think we would have to admit that the moral imperative of God which requires us to look out for another's  interest over our own, whether in laws or attitudes, is not the natural state of man.  Yet, we do see it all the time, and every time I see it, I take note, this would not be possible without God.  Just being able to walk down the street in safety is impressive.  In that sense, at least, I see his kingdom everywhere, vying in competition with the system of the world.

Well I can see that sense myself, I view it as Gods influence also. With me, I don't see it as a " Kingdom influence", but I understand those who do. I see it as part of the Good knowledge that God made avialible to humanity. I see the Kingdom of God as a place , not yet in our reality, or moreso us not yet in that place. When the Kingdom of God is brought down to earth, then I see us being in that place. But I understand those who view it " Spiritually", and see the Spirit of the place being within them now.

I have been wrong to argue that point with people who hold to it, and have adjusted to understanding that I simply do not see it as they do. We are just going to see things differently, but we do need to prove things to ourselves first, and the Kingdom being within is just something I cannot prove to myself, but hold no need to prove to others anything about what they accept themselves. I am really trying to move away from doing that, because each of us has the Spirit to help us to understand things, and it obviously works with each of us quite differently in some areas, and the same in others.

Peace.

well, yes it is a place which will be on earth when enough people change from the inside out.  A kingdom is made up of people.

The meek will inherit the earth, not the warmongers.

It will be here when enough people stop sitting around watching porn and playing computer games while their leaders carry out policies of death, destruction, and enslavement.  It will be here when man realizes he is immortal and his life is worth something more than making enough money every week to pay the mortgage or buy the new SUV,  and his life is worth doing something good, something that will have lasting benefit for his fellow man.  It will be here when the gutless wonders that populate our western countries start standing up and saying, "No," to evil, and "Not on my watch."

Until then, satan runs the show, and the minds of men are dominated by the word of satan.


Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

One day mankind will know the truth, and that truth will set us free. Jesus is the beginning of this process for humanity, and I don't even know Christ for myself yet. I believe and I hope in Christ victory, yet even I don't know God personally in my life. I often listen to the song " Distant Lover", and I place God there in my mind. So close, yet so far. I have no photo album, no tape recording, only the bible and my weak faith. I often long for just a wispher from him, a one on one conversation, anything just to break the fellowship with just a book.

I like how some have said the Word becomes alive within you. Well God has done his thing with me, I am convinced in him, there is no turning back for me. And I like the message of Universal Salvation, the hope it gives for all. So I view this world through those eyes, humanity willnot be left to itself always, our distant Lover will return. I know that one day I will be given his Holy Spirit, and oh how I long for that day!

He will no longer help me in bits and peices, but my mind and heart will be totally gripped by him. Sin will let loose of me, and I will be free indeed.

Yet I thank him daily for seeing to me, in the mist of my troubles, somehow I know he is there.

Peace.

Psalm 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

"meek"

H6035
עניו    ענו
‛ânâv  ‛ânâyv
aw-nawv', aw-nawv'
The second form is by intermixture with H6041; from H6031; depressed (figuratively), in mind (gentle) or circumstances (needy, especially saintly): - humble, lowly, meek, poor`. Compare H6041.


H6031
ענה
‛ânâh
aw-naw'
A primitive root (possibly rather identical with H6030 through the idea of looking down or browbeating); to depress literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively (in various applications). (sing is by mistake for H6030.): - abase self, afflict (-ion, self), answer [by mistake for H6030], chasten self, deal hardly with, defile, exercise, force, gentleness, humble (self), hurt, ravish, sing [by mistake for H6030], speak [by mistake for H6030], submit self, weaken, X in any wise.


H6030
ענה
‛ânâh
aw-naw'
A primitive root; properly to eye or (generally) to heed, that is, pay attention; by implication to respond; by extension to begin to speak; specifically to sing, shout, testify, announce: - give account, afflict [by mistake for H6031], (cause to, give) answer, bring low [by mistake for H6031], cry, hear, Leannoth, lift up, say, X scholar, (give a) shout, sing (together by course), speak, testify, utter, (bear) witness. See also H1042, H1043.




Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


"meek"
G4239
πραΰ́ς
praus
prah-ooce'
Apparently a primary word; mild, that is, (by implication) humble: - meek. See also G4235.



Matthew 11:29

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly of heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Anna!  I really enjoyed your post.  I, too, am coming full circle to the simple love I had for him as a small child.

Even so, he's opening up so many new worlds to me still.  More on the word of God--

We see God speaking the world into existence, calling by thought and voice (a commandment) something into existence that was not there before.  What could we call this, if not the creative process?

He created man in his image, so man, too, has this creative process by definition--able to call something into existence that was not there before.

Man was given dominion over this planet and everything on it.  But man was not given dominion over man.
In order for man to have dominion over man, a small percentage of men have to reduce the large percentage  of men to the thing that man does have legal dominion over--the beast of the fields.  The slavery of satan is to destroy the creative and procreative process of man, reducing him to an animal.  Satan would have us in a constantly reactive state, always reacting to his latest move on the world scene, rather than being proactive as we were created to be.  He does this by manipulating our minds, brainwashing us, making us think we are so much less than we are, causing us to worship death, using lies and murder.

God hid his son Adam in the skin of beasts before he sent him out of the garden.  And, so he remained hidden, for ages and generations--until Christ should come and redeem him.

This creative process is how man becomes the word of God, using it for life, (not death,) for glory to God, (not glory to a few nasty, greedy, and cruel men,) yoked together with Jesus--the mind of Christ.

I'm waiting for this to explode on the earth, all over the earth, a mass awakening to the light of our Redeemer.

...yet in my flesh shall I see God.--Job 19:26

Quote from: martincisneros on June 17, 2008, 11:50:34 AMIf having the Book as first priority and final authority in my life makes me an idolater, then everybody just back out of the way while my big butt gets on my knees with the Book 'cause We've got our own thing going on over here :cloud9:

Martin, you are too cool dude! :grin:

Quote from: martincisneros on June 17, 2008, 11:50:34 AM
I don't think that the problem's so much the Book as people not being able to perceive the depth to which God can touch you with the Book.  They understand the level to which they've been touched by the Book, but haven't dared to grasp that there are deeper levels even in the Book. 

Agreed.

Mickiel, Jab, Molly - I've read a lot of your writings on all manner of subjects and you folks are awesome and I would never venture out to try and discount your views of the bible, and even more so because I share most of your views. For whatever reason though I'm in a place where I see how many have replaced knowing God with believing in a perfect 'magic' book. I don't think that is the case with folks here who have tasted of the power of the world to come and know God in a deep way. I apologize if my strong 'idolatry' statements seemed to be directed at any of you - if they don't apply then they weren't. :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: jabcat on June 17, 2008, 11:35:37 AM
IMO, there is a lack of understanding, including the continued attempt to which I've alluded, to separate God's Truths, His Word, into segments from itself.  Some do this out of convenience/deceit, some because they've been negatively influenced by the former.

I'm sure some discount the bible for the reasons you mentioned. As for me, I've really never been negatively influenced by it though I know many who have been - but I agree with most of you that it's just because of a lack of spiritual insight. I have stated my deep love for the bible and am thankful for everything God has taught me (and is still teaching me) through it. It's just that so many I deal with everyday are stuck in deep deep ruts just parroting over and over what their pastors teach them and all their pet scriptures to reinforce a particular world view which I see as false and twisted. It's not the bible's fault per se, but it's how it is presented.

I will say I am a bit surprised that none of you will acknowledge that I have any valid points at all. :mshock:

All I am really saying is that the message of God has always existed and did not drop down from heaven in the form of a magic book. He comes to us personally and even though the book tells the story about God's dealings with others it should not replace His direct dealings with us as individuals. I don't think you all disagree with this, and maybe I'm arguing more over an all encompassing term, ie: "Word of God" than an actual issue?

Molly, I worked in word of faith circles for 30 years and all the "God said's" in Genesis are simply astounding and powerful, setting the course for all we see around us. Your posts on this subject give me chills down my spine :bigGrin:

blessings,
- byron

Yes, it is interesting, and I hope you will at least consider it.

Because the Word of God is Jesus, and it is the literal word of the Bible, and it is the mind of Christ--it is the spoken word of God which brings things into being out of nothing.

So--how do we attain righteousness, how does our righteousness increase?--by all of the above.

We are becoming holograms of Christ--the mind of Christ which is in you is also in me.


5 He therefore that  ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth it he by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye, therefore, that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

--Galatians 3


These are the children of Abraham--the children of the promise, the children of light--the word of God--because God spoke them into existence with an everlasting covenant, and Abraham believed what he heard.


Genesis 22:18

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

[quote author=firstborn888 link

I will say I am a bit surprised that none of you will acknowledge that I have any valid points at all. :mshock:

All I am really saying is that the message of God has always existed and did not drop down from heaven in the form of a magic book. He comes to us personally and even though the book tells the story about God's dealings with others it should not replace His direct dealings with us as individuals. I don't think you all disagree with this, and maybe I'm arguing more over an all encompassing term, ie: "Word of God" than an actual issue?

blessings,
- byron
[/quote]

Well I think many of your points are valid, and let me say they are perhaps more future tense, than past tense. We don't know a lot about God outside of the bible, but a time will come that the bible itself may become obsolette, but not today. The things you are speaking of are moreso the future, and not Gods words in the past. I don't understand a lot about God outside of the bible, but as the time approachs that people will no longer need teachers, I think conversely, the time will come where even the bible itself will not be needed. It will perhaps be just another book in heaven that we read like history books. I just think your looking further than most, which is understandable, but your premise is more based on Gods Words before the bible was written, and thats just too much of an unknown.

I do tend to view the bible as " Magical", as well as God and Jesus themselves. Extraordinary and unique. Mystical and defineing. But I can see some of your points, just not all of them. In 1Thess. 1:5;" Our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit, and with full conviction." This is a definte " Pattern of God", espically when he reveals things to individuals. Its not just word only that he teachs, its in Power, in the Holy Spirit, and with full conviction. Its not just the bible only, and his Power and Spirit can cover a whole lot of ground.

So when you walk ground that seemingly no onelse is covering, just keep walking.

Peace.

Byron,

I think that I know what you're talking about.  A good example are a lot of the people who carry their Bible everywhere they go, but they don't ever read it indepth.  They'll read a couple of Psalms, the text that their Pastor preached last Sunday or Wednesday night, or maybe a chapter of Proverbs.  But few of the people who carry the Bible with them everywhere have even gotten as far as reading through the whole New Testament.  But if you and me come out of nowhere asserting the final recovery of all, they sure know where Revelation 20:14 is, and one or two other alleged proof texts for ET.  Their minds are made up, so don't confuse them with the facts of Romans 5, 2Corinthians 5, 1Corinthians 15, Revelation 5:13, etc. 

I'm not sure if you've tried to share UR with some of the same WoF crowd, but it's amazing how all of a sudden it's impossible to see any of the things that we'd understand of a UR nature where the Abrahamic Blessing is concerned.  In my experience, they'll look at you like you made it up about all of the families of the earth being blessed!!  Unless, you're talking about confessing and believing your way into enough money to get on enough television stations so that everybody can "have a chance" to hear the Word before Jesus comes back and it's "too late." 

I don't discount the financial part of the Galatians chapters 3 and 4 blessing 'cause after standing on it for 17 years, I finally started having a few of those financial testimonies of my own this past September.  The type of financial testimonies that people who aren't normally associated with the more prosperous aspects of the preaching of the Word will often be forced by their own circumstances to say "they've gotta be lying about that!  there ain't no way!!"  First the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.  I haven't had steady abundance ever since then, but I've had several things that have happened since then, just to let me know that I didn't waste the first 20 years of my Christian life, all of that confessing and all of that giving. 

But the point of anything that God does -- and we must never lose this part -- is the filling of the entire earth and of every heart in the entire earth with His glory.  Yes, wealth is a part of that: all of the families of the earth are to be blessed; "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst, etc., etc. for the Lamb shall lead them, be their light; they shall walk by the light of that city, etc., etc., etc., etc."  But if we miss out on the love that'll shake everything to it's core and then later will never ever be shaken by anything -- if we miss out on this, then we've missed everything!  Through the Blood of Christ we're all ONE family.  That's the point of the Word.  That's the point of the Blood.  That's the point of the Spirit.  JESUS CHRIST CHANGED EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!

Quote Byron: "All I am really saying is that the message of God has always existed".

I agree, IMO, that's an absolute, very valid point. I'll give you love  :high5: :thumbsup:.


Quote Byron: "and did not drop down from heaven in the form of a magic book".  

I personally wouldn't describe it in these terms, but IMO, there may be some separation in POV here, in that I believe the written Word(s) of God are part of/also the Word (the total of God's truths and the expression thereof).

Quote Byron: "He comes to us personally and even though the book tells the story about God's dealings with others it should not replace His direct dealings with us as individuals."

That's my point, is that IMO, it will never replace His direct dealings with us...they are part and parcel, they work together, one testifies and/or witnesses of the other.  

Quote Byron: "I don't think you all disagree with this, and maybe I'm arguing more over an all encompassing term, ie: "Word of God" than an actual issue?"

I don't think most in this discussion do disagree with this either.  However, IMO, the terminology is very critical, because of the implications involved and where that belief system can lead.  I will only speak for myself, but I suspect many others have seen as well, that often when someone verbalizes the statement "[accurately translated, Spirit revealed] scripture is not the Word of God", then that can open the door to beginning the slide down that slippery slope to which I earlier alluded.  I believe that can be a very critical area in which we can "give way to Satan", which scripture warns against.  It gives Satan a foothold, an entrance to question "did God really say"?   In essence, that if scripture can't be trusted, and I have the need to make the statement(s) that it's generally not inspired, not God's Word, etc., then I could begin to question and influence others to dispute all sorts of actually scripture-based doctrinal issues (not just denominational dogmas with which we've all dealt) including some that IMO are very integral to the message of the Christ's Good News.  When that happens, then where does it stop and who am I negatively affecting?  I can then go to this scenario... [I'M NOT SAYING YOU DO THIS, BYRON, I'M MAKING A POINT USING ME AS THE EXAMPLE...I PERSONALLY WAS TURNING IN THE DIRECTION OF DOUBTING GOD'S WORD, HAVING BEEN INFLUENCED BY SOMEONE ELSE, UNTIL GOD S/W PAINFULLY VISITED ME IN CORRECTION  :spank:]...So this scenario...the cross was unnecessary, Jesus' blood isn't important, Jesus wasn't really born of a virgin, we don't really need the salvation of Jesus as God has accepted us all along, all other religions are OK in God's eyes, Jesus isn't divine, Paul was a liar so we can't believe anything he said (unless there's a certain passage I like and fits well to make whatever point I want to make)...again, where's the end to that (answer: destruction) and how do we as the universal Body of Christ really edify each other with truth, contend for sound doctrine, etc., if we have gone the way of making up our own doctrines because scripture can't be trusted, although my POV may be that it is a very good book and I like a lot of its stories.  

The Word of God is powerful.  And in the Greek, in Hebrews alone, over and over it talks of the Word of God as being the logos AND the rhema...for instance, this famous verse;  4:12 For the word (LOGOS) of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  And here; 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word (LOGOS) of God to you"...

So, even if I believe scripture is "neat", IMO, that's not enough.  If I even believe scripture is "really good stories about God, and we ought to pay a lot of attention to it"...IMO, that's still not enough.  The Word of God is absolute power, and it IS Jesus, but to say it's only Jesus, IMO is incorrect and missing much.  IMO, all of God's truths, including His thoughts, written words, manifestation of His power, are God's Word;  and again, Jesus manifested all that in the flesh.  More Hebrews;  6:5 and have tasted the good word (hRHMA) of God and the powers of the age to come,  11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word (hRHMA) of God...See, as I understand it, this scripture and the scripture wrt "and the Word was/toward God", is not specifically talking about Jesus "only" at that point, but more so, for lack of a better way to say it, along the lines of God's thoughts/will/intent, etc...specifically, the hRHMA...again, [part of] the Word of God.

Quote Byron: "It's just that so many I deal with everyday are stuck in deep deep ruts just parroting over and over what their pastors teach them and all their pet scriptures to reinforce a particular world view which I see as false and twisted. It's not the bible's fault per se, but it's how it is presented."

Sad, but true, and I do understand how those situations make us want to pull our hair out...

God's blessing, James.

1 Thess 5:5

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:  we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


The first thing that God does after creating light is separate it from the darkness.  Thus, light is not just illuminated darkness, it is something qualitatively different.  If that were not so, the light would cause all darkness to cease.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.--Genesis 1


Then God gives the light a name: "Day."   And, here in 1 Thess we are called 'the children of the day.'


Why is this so special?  Because darkness has no part in us.  It is a different 'animal' altogether.  God has divided the darkness from us.  The Jewish day begins in the evening, with darkness being followed by the light of dawn, the rising of the morning star.


31And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.  And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.--Genesis 1



"morning"


H1242
בּקר
bôqer
bo'-ker
From H1239; properly dawn (as the break of day); generally morning: -  (+) day, early, morning, morrow.

In John 1:1," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word here is Jesus, and I believe the expression " The Word was God", means at one time Jesus was " Inside of God", and then God " Birthed him", so he was at one time God. I used to call this " Protozoan", for lack of a better term, meaning what was once inside, is now outside. God actually gave birth to Jesus, and brought him from inside of himself. Of course I don't know how he did this, but its what I see as occuring, whenever it occured.

Jesus in John 5:26;" Just as the Father has life in himself, even so " HE GAVE" to the son to have life in himself, which obviously means that Jesus didNOT always have life in himself, or God wouldnot have had to " Give it to him." Again Jesus in John 6:57, " As the living Father has sent me, AND I LIVE BECAUSE OF THE FATHER!" I think its being made painfully obvious by Jesus, that he came from God, and was NOT always alive with " Independant self generating Life", or protozoan, yet he was always a part of God. So in one sense, having no beginning of days, yet in another , certainly having a beginning of days. Which can be rather confusing.

Again Jesus in John 8:42;" For I proceeded forth and came from God." Again the obvious sense of " Birth, or a beginning." Or perhaps its not so obvious to some. So Jesus, the Word, was once God, or an integral part of God, which God is now sharing with reality.

The Word can also mean the greek Logos, which is a thought or a concept. It is the expression or utterance of that thought. I think this means that God Designated Jesus to " Speak for him", or become the Spokes person, or " Speaker between the two." Therefore Logos is peculiarly suitable because in Jesus are embodied all the treasures of the devine Wisdom, the Collective thought of God." But only what God wants to share at the time. So everything Jesus says, IS the Word of God. Notice 1 Corinth. 1:24; Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. And the bible is certainly about Christ.

But the orgin of the Word of God, is still God himself. Eph. 3:9; "And to bring  to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things." Now part of this " Hidden in God", is Jesus himself. Think in terms of Jesus being the Word, the Word was at one time God, or hidden in God, but now the mystery is beginning to be unfolded, or shared, with humanity. And these things are being brought to the light. Notice also Col.2:2-3;"That their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in Love ( a most bueatiful expression, knit together in Love) and attaining to all wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, RESULTING in a true Knowledge of Gods Mystery, that is Christ himself. In whom are HIDDEN all the treasures of wisdom and Knowledge."

So I think it goes like this, to put it simple; God is eternal, he decided to have a Son. God does not have sex with another being, so he somehow just " Birthed Christ", who became the firstborn of all creation. Christ was always " Inside of God", which makes him eternal also. So Jesus is in one sense, BOTH Eternal, has always existed, but yet now exist with his very OWN eternal Life with individual power and personality, and God GAVE him this, so he has a " Beginning of sorts." This is the Beginning I believe John 1:1 is speaking of;" In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and at one time, Was God."

And I want to go a little further along this path.  Peace.

In the beginning was the Word..

This doesn't say 1 minute after the beginning, or 20 minutes after the beginning--it says, In the beginning...


"Word"

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


What does this tell us about the nature of God?



John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[quote author=Mickiel link=

This is the Beginning I believe John 1:1 is speaking of;" In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and at one time, Was God."

And I want to go a little further along this path.  Peace.
[/quote]


The beginning of John 1:1, is the beginning of Jesus , because God the Father has no beginning. Notice vs.2; " He was IN the beginning with God." This is not a prologue of the Father, but of the Son. He was IN God and began to Live outside of him. Then God placed him back inside of a human womans womb, he was IN Mary, and was Born Again, the first born of many that will go through this exact same process. Born once, then born again.

This is the essence of Gods preincarnate work, God eternal Word incarnate in his Son, born of himself.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Colossians 1:15

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


"firstborn"


G4416
πρωτοτόκος
prōtotokos
pro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).



G4413
πρῶτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.



G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.


This is telling us that he is the beginning seed, and the foremost seed--prototokos.



Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Quote from: Anna on June 18, 2008, 03:45:51 PM
Hi Molly:

I have too much respect for your POV to dismiss it without giving it some consideration.

But, right now, I'm so focused on the creation of man...

In the history of the world (cosmos) as recorded in the Scriptures, the first, the final, and most importantly, the intermediate matter is that of the creation of heaven, earth, man.

Genesis 1:26-27

Ephesians 2:15-16

Rev. 4:11; 10:6; 21:1


Peace!
Anna

BTW re: Genesis 22:18, see also Genesis 3:17 and Genesis 16:2... it's all in whose voice one obeys!!!

Thanks, Anna!

What does it mean to obey, if not to follow?

And do we have any choice but to follow him if we hear his voice?

Sheep do that, you know. They recognize the voice of their shepherd and will go to him when called, and follow him wherever he goes.


"obey" [Gen 22:18]

H8085
שׁמע
shâma‛
shaw-mah'
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): -  X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.



John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:



"follow"
G190
ἀκολουθέω
akoloutheō
ak-ol-oo-theh'-o
From G1 (as a particle of union) and κέλευθος keleuthos (a road); properly to be in the same way with, that is, to accompany (specifically as a disciple): - follow, reach.


But when someone who is not the true shepherd wants to herd the sheep, what does he do?  He sets the predatory dogs on them to nip at their heels and stare them down, and send them in whatever direction he wants for his own benefit.


15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. --Genesis 3

I believe that the Word of God is simply LOVE!

Yet it seems that love can mean many things to many people...and perhaps that is as it should be for now....I see that as our purpose here on earth -- to find out (to know) what Love means.....

How can we worship Him, if we do not even know Him??

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not even know Him. (John chapter 1)

Jesus not only tells us what love is, he shows us.



John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Good post Molly!

Makes me think of how we are all so loved and so very many of us don't even know it, and we forget sometimes.  He gave His life for ALL of us. That is what Love is...so true...:HeartThrob:

The Word of God then, as far as humans are concerned, is Jesus Christ, the Living embodiedment of Gods Word given to us by and through Christ. The bible is the written word of God, inspired by God, and used of God for his purpose. What Gods Prophets have shared is also the Word of God, and every Word that came from Jesus mouth is the Word of God. Also what some Angels have said is the Word of God, and what the Holy Spirit has said is the Word of God. So the Word of God is from the same source, the Father, but delivered by diverse messengers and methods. But ALL of these are also Evidence that the Father has not made attempts to directly speak to humanity himself, in any personal established method that we are aware of. Why is this?

And I want to touch on that some.

Peace.

One reason why I am very reluctant to factor present day humans into being a part of the Word of God, is because of the unrealibility of that. But if God inspires a human to speak, then conversely that would be the Word of God also. I admit to personally not trusting in that, but I do pray that the time comes that God will do that in our time. You can see what neverending scrutiny has been leveled against the bible, that same scrutiny will be leveled against a human who claims to speak for God, and should be. Many have already made such claims, and God is perfectly aware of this, he knew it would happen.

So in my view, when God raises up a human to speak for him, it will quickly capture the attention of the World. This person, or persons, will have something that MUST set their voices apart from the imposters and fraudulent usurpers of Gods Word. I think it will be Gods very own Power, invested in them, to accomplish his will. I only wish to live to see this for myself. When God grips a man or woman, and allows the world to see his imprint, that will be a sight to behold, and the true followers of God will be surcharged by this in their Faith and belief.

But once God does this, it will naturally inititate the " End of the Times", and usher in some most frightening worldly events to come, so God willnot start this too early in his plans. For God to choose a human to speak for him, would be a sure sign that he is prepared to open certain " Seals", and some very deadly things must then occur. To make a claim that you speak for God, is in essence a claim to these afore mentioned things.

So I think we are in the times of God planting and establishing his truth in people, and from that will swell us into the last days on this earth. To desire the Word of God to saturate this Earth now, is a very serious desire that will result in serious consequences.

And I want to touch on some of those.

Peace.

One of the particular aspects of the Word of God, as I also see the Kingdom of God, is that they are not of this World. Again Jesus in John 18: 36;" My Kingdom is not of this World. If my Kingdom were of this World, then my servants " Would be fighting", that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but " As it Is", my Kingdom is not of " This Realm." As it is now, I do not see the Kingdom of God as being now established on this earth. Now when believers in the Word of God, teach and confirm that the Kingdom is now here within them, I see that as a contridiction of the Word of God. And I bring this up, not to argue the point, but to stress the point that now, the Word of God is being debated and dissagreed with even amoung its followers and believers. So believers are fighting each other " Over the Word", and are in no shape to fight for the Kingdom itself. They are " Stumbling Over Christ", and the Word of God he taught. Which I think is a sure sign that the comming of God is not as near.

Believers need time to "mature  in the Word", and conversely, the Word to mature in them.

We all need to be " Sanctified". Again Jesus in John 17:17;" Sanctify them in the Truth, Thy Word is Truth." Our minds need to be set apart for Holy Use, and Gods Word needs to be purified within our minds and the effects of sin on our discernment needs to be erased. And this is a PERSONAL need for us all, there are no exceptions to this. None of us has " Evolved beyond the other", in this vital area. The fighting we should be personally involved with now, is getting in tune with God and his Word.

When God looks to vist your mind through his Spirit, hes ready to teach and instill, not to fight you. When he starts moving your thoughts around, hes not comming to play chess with your opinions, hes there to make the moves, not discuss them. And when your Spirit is in tune with him, you will think as you are told. And he won't allow no personal interference from you. Your mind willnot buldge from the points he instills. Jesus in John 17:8;" For the Words which thou has given me I have gave to them and they received them, and truly understood." This is the " Flow of Gods Word", notice the flow; God gives to Christ, Christ gives to us, and that is the transmission that moves the Word of God. And the bible will shift many gears in your mind, according to how God keys you into this flow.

This is WHY we need the bible, because we stumble too much over Gods Word. Again Jesus in John 16:1, " These things I have Spoken to you, that you may be kept from stumbling." The Bible is a guideline to our Spiritual reasonings and direction. A light to our path.

And I want to hit on that a bit.

Peace.

Let me say something about God. There are certain things that intrest God about each one of us, and this is very important to him. Again notice Jesus in John 16:7;" But I tell you the Truth, it is to " Your Advantage" that I go away. Listen to that, I mean think about it. Jesus concern was that we enter into a " God Ordained Phase!" He knew and understood that the Father was sending the Holy Spirit to Convict the World concerning sin, and while this is occuring, the Father wants his chosen to be TAUGHT and HELPED by the Holy Spirit OF TRUTH! Listen, the world is ALREADY judged, it been convicted, the judgement that falls onto the people of God is to be HELPED by his Spirit!

And this help can cover, or NOT cover, much varying ground, but the meat of the help, is to CONVICT us to the TRUTH! Convince us of it, educate us on it, orientate us to it. Oh yes, the cares of this world, the pride we take in our lives, everyday needs and living, all this help, but we are students of the natural, AND un natural Word of God. And this is to our advantage, I mean we may not see the advantage now, but that will manifest itself in due time. The Spirit of God is working on this world too. While this world is being impressed with a heavy sense of quilt, we are moving toward freedom and truth.

Peace.

I just noticed today that the way back into the garden is through fire.



24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.--Genesis 3


Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:




Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.



James 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.



Luke 17:21
.... for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[quote author=Mickiel
So I think we are in the times of God planting and establishing his truth in people, and from that will swell us into the last days on this earth. To desire the Word of God to saturate this Earth now, is a very serious desire that will result in serious consequences.

And I want to touch on some of those.

Peace.
[/quote]


The Word of God  has a very interesting prophectical  slant to it. If its anything in the bible that I wouldnot want to come true, its certain prophecys that tell of great suffering in humanity in the end. When God will unleash upon humanity untold horrors. I really wish this wouldnot have to be. I know a viewpoint could be taken , that what will be will just have to be. If I could change any of Gods will, it would be the terrors that must come during these times. Revelations 8, 9 and 10 are some frigthening  events to come. In Rev. 9:15 special angels were created just for the purpose of killing humans. Some of them were riding horses that had heads like lions and they breathed fire out of their mouths. During these times humans will try to kill themselves, but won't be able to. Crearures will be created to torture humans, but not kill them. We talk about the Love of God and Universalism, but Gods wrath will be on display in frightening terrors to behold. I certainly don't want to be alive to see this. Beings created for the specific purpose of killing humans. They will be totally unmerciful.

Its is from this most frightening aspect of God that many choose to view Gods word in a complettely different light of judgement. From this aspect of Gods word, came the hell doctrines. They figure if God can do things this horrible, he will continue to be like this forever.

A most distrubing view of God.

The Word of God is like a two edged sword , it penertrates on more than just one view of looking at it. It can open up a thought on one side of your mind, while at the same time it can be doing things to the other side of your perception. For example; consider Jude 1:21;" Keep yourselves in the Love of God, waiting anxiously for the Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to Eternal life." Yet the bible also says to be anxious for nothing. Well the anxiousness of mercy that leads to eternal life, is certainly not for nothing. God is able to " Keep us from stumbling", vs. 24, but yet will use stumbling in teaching us to walk. So in short order, we need to make Gods Word our career, a life long endeavor of learning, because theres too often, two ways of discerning the things of God. Its the " Other way of seeing it", that often evades us.

For example; What do you see in the concept of " Waiting for Jesus Mercy?" Why are we in the position of needing mercy in the first place? Well because God placed us all in that position, and like his word, there is a " Two edged reason" for that. Hes cutting more than one way of bleeding.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel

For example; What do you see in the concept of " Waiting for Jesus Mercy?" Why are we in the position of needing mercy in the first place? Well because God placed us all in that position, and like his word, there is a " Two edged reason" for that. Hes cutting more than one way of bleeding.

Peace.
[/quote]


In speaking Gods Word, it corrects not only the listener, but the speaker themselves. Its hard to speak words like that, which bothers the confidence of many. They then actually hold a " Fear in speaking Gods Word." The anxiousness turns to apprehension, as it cuts inside and out. Phil. 1:14;" Have  more courage to speak the Word of God without fear."

Imagine the training involved here. Here something is inside of you that holds the power to move you, and correct you, move others and correct others also. How are you going to deal with something like that? Its being hard pressed from two directions, a most unusual feeling. Notice Paul in Phil. 1:23, here is a " Split personality of dual dynamics." Hard pressed to just lay down and die to be over with this life, or stay and witness this Word of God. This is the dynamic of the two edged sword.

Peace.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 16, 2008, 08:27:08 PM
Hi James,


I do not intend to negate the bible or suggest that it is not of God.  My comment about it realizes the reality that we do not have the originals, nor are we completely in understanding of the culture and the full understanding of an ancient language that we are far removed from.

I understand the excuses such as ones PT brings to the table that allows him to manipulate the contradictions in his theology as if they do not exist.  

But I think that it is accurate to say that the bible is the best physical representation God has allowed us to have in order to understand what God wants us to know in this state of existance.  But as it is also in the world, then it is not whole and perfect no more than we are.

Exactly!!  Try explaining this to hard core Bible thumpers who demean you when you show any doubt of their cherry picked scripture spouting!  It only gets worse when you point out to them that none of the words they are spouting were ever written in English.  Or that the Bible they are spouting is a translation of a translation.  It may be the best we have, but it is not the original.  I was really taken to task for suggesting that redactions have occurred, and words not in the intended texts have been added!! Even though there is credible proof that this is true! Apparently, it was right as it was, and is still right once changed!

Since my name's included in this post, I'll interject.  Not sure who's being called Bible thumpers or what's being labeled as cherry picking. 
As for myself, my personal stance has been repeatedly stated that scripture, accurately translated, properly divided, and Spirit revealed, can be trusted and IMO, should be revered as truth.  Also IMO, any passages that can honestly be shown to be corruptions should be seen in that light.  However, some want to cast doubt on much of scripture that can not be shown as having been corrupted, then their use of scripture often only boils down to which parts they subjectively choose to believe. IMO, neither extreme is honest, and I think scripture needs to handled very carefully.  My  :2c:.

The Bible is a gold mine of inspiration, according to how one is " Arroused." Isaiah 45:13;" I have " Arroused him in Righteousness." The missing ingredient in this essential Word authored by God, is God himself " Stimulating human thought." In the hands of a human stimulated by God, the Bible is something to behold. And we will see this in times to come, as God disects the human mind and stimulates these minds with his Word, they will see much that we cannot.

Again Jesus in Mark 5:19;" Go home to your  people and report to them, what " Great Things" the Lord has done for you. As time develops further into Gods plans for our future, God will open great avenues of his Word to some, their minds will flap through the pages of the Bible, and oh what relevancy will be manifested.

I wouldnot disguard the Bible, not just yet. Its a " Living Book", and God does not need to change the words written in it, only magnify the mind that considers it.

Peace.

When the bible is viewed through the eyes of man, man will see what men see, and value it as a man. When the bible is viewed through the mind of Christ, man will see what Christ sees.

There is a difference.

Peace.

Jabcat......Actually I was not referring to anybody on this particular forum with my Bible thumper comment.

"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"   [*The word of God has beautiful feet.]

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.[*The message is heard through the word of Christ--the mind of Christ] 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

   "Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
      their words to the ends of the world." 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
   "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
      I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20And Isaiah boldly says,
   "I was found by those who did not seek me;
      I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21But concerning Israel he says,
   "All day long I have held out my hands
      to a disobedient and obstinate people."

--Romans 10

10:15  And1161 how4459 shall they preach,2784 except3362 they be sent?649 as it2531 is written,1125


How5613 beautiful5611 [are] the3588 feet4228 [of them that preach] the gospel2097 of peace,1515 and bring glad tidings2097 of good things!18



hōs hōraios    ho pous euaggelizō  eirēnē euaggelizō  agathos




How beautiful the feet [the bringer of] Gospel    peace      [the bringer of] Gospel glad tidings   good things

Thanks G, maybe I was feeling a little guilty :happygrin:.  My background is definitely that, so the Holy Spirit has to temper me, or I'd make a fool of myself even more often than I do :tease:.  As far as the particular denomination you mentioned to me,  :eek:...I know them quite well.

If you take close notice of the things people are saying about Gods word, its almost as if some, because of lack of understanding, seem to take a stance that the word of God has failed. Rom.9:6. Its like I can think to myself, " Well I don't understand this, so something must be wrong with Gods Word." I mean, can you get to that? Because I don't understand it, something has to " Be wrong with IT."

Look at Matthews 15:6, notice particularly the phrase " And thus YOU invalidated the Word of God." WE invalidate the word of God, NOT it itself! I kind of like how it was mentioned that" My backround is definitely that, so the Holy Spirit has to temper me , or I'd make a fool of myself." This is so true, so many of us make a fool of ourselves because of our lack of understanding, and  we spread the foolishness.

Gods Word is NOT invalidated, but it is invalidated by US! Because we just don't know what we are doing. Oh but the " Pride" involved with that, will just uphold all the strongholds that produce a lack of validity in humanity for Gods Word. And like stubborn mules, we will knock at Gods Word, simply because we are blind in spots.

And I want to go into that.  Peace.

 :goodpost:.  "And thus YOU invalidated the Word of God."  What an awesome, telling scripture..."I don't get it", or "I don't like that, it doesn't minister to me", "I don't see how...".  "So it must not be inspired".  Please.

"For it is written, I shall be destroying the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of the intelligent shall I be repudiating....Does not God make stupid the wisdom of this world?"  I Cor. 1:20.

Quote from: jabcat on June 28, 2008, 01:15:11 AM
:goodpost:.  "And thus YOU invalidated the Word of God."  What an awesome, telling scripture..."I don't get it", or "I don't like that, it doesn't minister to me", "I don't see how...".  "So it must not be inspired".  Please.

"For it is written, I shall be destroying the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of the intelligent shall I be repudiating....Does not God make stupid the wisdom of this world?"  I Cor. 1:20.

Well yes, this is the kind of approach many are starting to take on Gods word. They have become so " Spiritual" that the Word of God can now be invalidated by " Their Wisdom." You know, they know so much, that now they can invalidate parts of the bible itself, because parts of their brains has evolved into the beyond.

If you think about the aittitude of " Taking the value away from something", for whatever reason, then one needs to consider the warning in Revelations about not adding or taking away from the Bible. But people think they are " Little gods", and their understanding has evolved beyond this warning, they don't even consider it. They think the changes they have made are correct.

And I want to get into this aittitude of taking away from the bible.

Peace.

To invalidate Gods Word means that YOU make it no good. It is YOU that brings in the thoughts of confusion. It is NOT the way the bible was written, its how YOU are interpiting it. And when we take responsibility for invalidating Gods Word, then the hope could be that God sees you being responsible for your invalidation, and may give you some truth.

But I bet you one thing, what he reveals to your mind, WILL ALREADY be within the pages of the bible. So when your mind superseeds the bible, your close to being out of your mind. This is also the spirit of the anti-christ, a spirit that will add to and take away from the bible, is NOT a spirit of Christ, but it " Appears to be." Its a " Spirit", but at its core its against Christ. Its a " Spiritual deception", which looks to mutate Gods Word and morph it into somethingelse in your mind, and thus lead you into the " Habit of invalidation of Gods Word."

Peace.

The Word of God is invalidated again by YOU! Not by the errors in the bible, but by the errors in US! We think ourselves as the interpertors of Gods Word, we  first deceive ourselves through this pride, and then conversely invalidate Gods Word by looking to think God has opened us to superseed his own Word. Gal. 6:3;"For if anyone thinks he is something when he is really nothing, he deceives  himself." We tend to think our interpitation of Gods word is something, when really it is nothing. But the something is so inticeing to us, we expect it to entice others. " Come listen to me, and hear what I have to say", because we tend to think we are called by God to speak this word.

Vs. 4;" But let each one examine his own work, and THEN he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard  to another." If you think yourself a carrier of Gods Word, then why try to convince another of it, first carry your own load, be sure of yourself, be sure of that. Are you examining what you think you know? Can you deal with being alone in this revealed word?

From this misconception many arguements are born. Birthed in adversary these fruitless discussions become the fodder for many self convinced believers to express their discuss for the discuss of the worldly views of God. Then God is mocked by our emotional content, as we share what we think we understand but really have not examined. We think God has priviledged us to the degree that we think our views match his views, thus we are inner convinced of the word of God according to us.

But there is a way to repent of this, and I want to touch on how.  Peace.

I personally view this delima of understanding Gods word, trying to be careful with that, and the desire God placed within us to share, or to witness, but being apprehensive about what we say, verses being prone to have a wild tounge that will say anything, is one of the greatest Spiritual test that God has designed. Oh and he uniquely designed this. I so often read what others are saying about God and his word in their sharing, their witness, and I can tell by that, what God is doing with them, AND needs to DO with them. I can see God dealing with them, and letting them run off on their own.

Self interpitation of scripture can be just as clear as God inspired and God given inspiration. When Gods Spirit inspires a person to witness on his word, don't you know that will be loud and clear to the others who share in this Spirit, conversely the errors we try to push on others will be just as loud and clear.

Sharing Gods Word is a way to know that God is dealing with YOU! So often I have moments in my life where I seriously doubt that God is with me, but then I go back and read something I have written, and I learn from it so much. I know for sure that it was not I, but the Spirit working in me, and its so inspiring and uplifting, and I need every inch of that uplift, because the cares of this world weigh me down. But it becomes an inspiration when Gods Word, inspires your Word, and both his witness and your witness inspires yourself and others. Now the adverse effect of this can be troubling. Conversely, when you see Gods word in error, and your word is in error, then you  embrace that, then you are both spreading error and embracing error, and learning to like the error, and then pride is being built from error.

I want to take a sidetrack here and talk about pride being taken from error.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel

I want to take a sidetrack here and talk about pride being taken from error.

Peace.
/quote]


In 2Tim.2:2;" And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses , these entrust to faithful men, who WILL BE ABLE to teach others." Being able to teach most certainly requires that God be involved with the teachers mind. Now God knows he must validate his word to the teachers mind, but what about the teachers Pride in themselves, it MUST be dealt with by God. There is no way around this, it just has to be done. The word of God is VERY powerful, as is God himself, BUT, God rules BY his gentleness and Kindness, his Goodness is his true power. Listen, his GOODNESS is his true Power!

The more God gets into a human mind, a human he is working on to mold into a teacher, he will no doubt install this Spirit of Goodness. NOT strict harsh methods, THAT is evidence of human pride! ALL strict stern methods of teaching are evidence of human pride in Gods Power. I have to fight this everyday in my life. The more I want to get harsh with someone, the more my pride looks to assert itself, and this happens constantly.

I don't see how God does it, just totally rule in Goodness without flexing all that muscle he has. Its so easy to just push people around with your knowledge, and so hard to lead their minds with Goodness.

You ever just prayed to God in repentance, knowing that you just pushed someone around using HIS Word to do it? I mean the shame you felt, the Spirit just gets all on you and whips you for doing it. Well this is God dealing directly with you, moving you away from the pride in his Power, to the Goodness OF his Power.

And I want to touch on that a bit.

Peace.

You can be a teacher of God and have a problem with Pride, but the effectual teacher of God is placed into an area of overcomming Pride. Pride gets in the way of teaching Gods Word. Like a pest, it always holds the potential to distort an opportunity to teach. Pride is next door to arrogance, simular neighbors, they are used to each other. When pride and arrogance comes out in your teaching its already in your heart. And I speak from personal experience, people can very easily  tick these things off in you, and next thing you know, you are expounding the Word of God out of pride and arrogance, two " Killers of the Spirit". Now instead of this being a teaching situation, now YOU have become a very dangerous person, because of your Power and aittitude. Notice 2Tim.1:7;"For God has not given us a Spirit of timidity, but of Power and Love and Discipline." You need to pay attention to this very closely, because Gods Word is a powerful sword, and if you get arrogant in your delivery of it, you can seriously cut people up. The next thing you know your enjoying the abuse, and it is a form of abuse. What do you think God feels about you doing that? God takes no pride in your pride of this abuse.


Listen, as your Power increases, you need to CONSTANTLY ask God to also increase your Love and Discipline. Thats how you counter your pride in this Word. The feeling of Power is seductive, and the ability to crush someone with just a word or two takes no Love or discipline. Paul in verse 13;" Retain the standard of sound words." It is not sound to crush with the truth, only to build up, in the faith that builds.

So with advanced knowledge comes the responsibility to have advanced Love and Self Control. And I want to go into how Gods Word is invalidated by teachers of God who have advanced in knowledge, but not in Love.

Peace.

In a sense, discussion boards on the internet have morphed into debate forums and outlets for people to vent and rant and rave on things. Whatever the topic, many seem to enjoy the opening to give their view of things. And we need to be very mindful of this, because on one end, I firmly believe in giving your witness. I believe in that. But on the other end, consider Titus 3:9;"But shun foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and worthless." It is foolish to even try to convince someone against their understanding, such a bearer of truth is being a bully.

Some teachers who see themselves as teachers of God, relish the oppisition they receive. Its as if the controversey is their " Validation" of them being right and sent by God. They actually feel that disagreement with them is their confirmation that God is working with them. When you have got this far into yourself, your just gone! Another person stuck on the powers of darkness, thinking they are shedding some light.

The Word of God is self medicinal, it will heal you, and your thoughts on things. The desire it creates within you is to speak words that heal, or could heal, according to Gods purpose.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel link=.

The Word of God is self medicinal, it will heal you, and your thoughts on things. The desire it creates within you is to speak words that heal, or could heal, according to Gods purpose.

Peace.
[/quote]

The Word of God is stimulating, and it stimulates people differently. For example look at Titus 1:9;" Holding fast the faithful Word which is in accordance with " The Teaching", that he may be able BOTH to exhort in Sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict." Now one could spend a life time doing either of these, and most choose to spend their life refuting others. Disagreement on the Word of God is just unavoidable , you just naturally get drawn into refutation, and often have to just shift gears in your mind just to get back into exhortation of the Word.

In handleing Gods Word, you don't want to become " Self Willed in the Word",  and quick tempered, because that can lead to empty talking. You will find your witness becomming like a baloon loosing air, as the Spirit deflates from you. Your zeal shoots off on a mission and your mouth is running on its own. No, we want to be self controlled in handling Gods Word, self control is a fruit of the Spirit, and all the fruits of the Spirit need to be used in handling Gods Word.

And doing that, in both our study and delivery of Gods Word, using and engaging Gods Spirit, is what really brings results.  And I want to look at that a bit, because its the Spirit engaging that brings the soundness of the Word of God.

Peace.

You ever just wanted to swim and not get wet? Its just impossible insn't it. One just demands the other. Well so it is with the Word of God and the Holy Spirit of God, they just have to be together. We can see the zeal and belief in a person for Gods Word and know that they are sincere. And you can see that, explicitly see it. But the Word without the Spirit can be explicitly seen, as opposed to the Word with the Spirit, and there is a difference. The Spirit will reconize the difference, and if the Spirit be with a person, it will show their minds the difference. It is a dramatic difference on one end, but a deceiving blending difference on the other end. Your in the water, your already wet, so the two can be indiscernable, but, you can actually see the water on you and still discern the two. So it is with the Word and the Spirit, some can miss it, some can see it. And it can be confused. 1 Tim.4:1;" The Spirit Explicitly Says", or it speaks with clearness.

For us to reconize the truth, the Spirit must make it sound or clear to us. Simplify or render it intelligible to us, then we can see the difference in discernment. Gods Word is not transparent without the Spirit of God, but it can be that way if one is the master of themselves. The human belief can jump into the Word, or the water, and get wet on its own, and believe the water to be the Words of life. If God is not the master of the expression, then it willnot be obvious to the person that they are not wet. Or not elucidated by the Holy Spirit, its not going to be as clear as day. Its not going to be sound.

Did you know you can be sound in the bible, but not sound in the Spirit?

Oh, good greif how this is misunderstood. And I want to expand on that.  Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel
Did you know you can be sound in the bible, but not sound in the Spirit?

Oh, good greif how this is misunderstood. And I want to expand on that.  Peace.
/quote]


If I may get back to this and finish a little more. Because I am beginning to see a growing group of people who are more sound in the bible, but not sound in the Spirit. And this just does not add up to the dispensation of the real truth. In Matt. 24:24, again Jesus;" For false Christs and Prophets will ARISE and will show great wonders and Signs, " As to mislead., if possible, even the very Elect." Now this means that VERY influencial people will grow out from society and establish themselves as being great leaders, and they will be biblically sound in many areas, areas that could even deceive the true annointed of God!

I think thats interesting and profound! And I would like to rehash some on that.

Peace.

More and more people are becomming biblically sound, but they are not sound represenitives of Gods plans. They are well versed in the word, but are devoid of Gods Spirit visiting.

In the early days, God made the giving of his Holy Spirit and Fire VERY CLEAR! Don't forget this. In Acts 15:7-8;" Peter said that in the Early Days, GOD made a choice amoung you." Get that part of his statement, God made a choice. This is something of Gods doing, it is NOT a human choice, a human revelation, a human claim or a human feeling.

Vs.8;" And God, who knows the heart,  BORE WITNESS TO THEM, Giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. People now claiming to have the Holy Spirit, are witnessing that to themselves, and to each other. Because they need to do that, it has to be complettely fabricated in its entirety.

You will know that the Spirit is " In you", but the PERSONAL WITNESS of God, NOT YOUR MOUTH! Not Your Life, not YOUR claims and personal beliefs. The  proof will be provided by God, and conversely, that SAME approach can be used in how to Know that you DO NOT have Gods Spirit, HE will reveal that to you also!

And I believe this is what God is now establishing, not a group of Spirit claimers, but a group of honest, humble, humans who know they do not have it. And from that foundation of truth, will grow what the Truth is.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free. Free from what, free from sin? No, free from the emporers robe, free from the private and public display of spirituality and elitism. Free from the pressure of trying to be things you are not. Free from fear of being aborted by God, free from the inability of being able to see your not called.

Free to know that you crave God and don't have him or know him.

From this freedom, the real Truth is established, because its built on a solid rock.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

If God was trying to prove that he has now set up a church on earth, then he would establish a people accordingly. He would clearly show that we are in deathcon 4, or a stage of his incomming seals being broken. And his people would be perfectly prepared for that, PERFECTLY! And I am saddened by the reaction of kingdom takers by this. AS they manipulate Gods word to fit themselves.

They have it all figured out.

A debt paied is not how well you use it, or explain it,  its paied, there is nothing you need to do.

And I want to go into this illusion that many have made on God. Not the many outside, but those inside, who are really fighting for what is theirs. The word of God is a fortress of solitude, it stands with or without you.

It is Gods solitude, Gods personage, Gods will, Gods ways and means, not intended to have a need for your support. We are a result of Gods word.

Its all God. And let me pry open Gods mind a little more to you.

Peace.

You ever wonder if God is rushing his Word? Or rushing the end times? Do you think God is affected by all those who want this thing ended now?

Or better put, can humans change Gods Word? Can we manipulate God, rush him, or change his mind?

Of course many believe the answers to these are yes, because they are trying to do it themselves.

I want to look at how we try to change Gods Word, how we try to manipulate God, and see if God is changeing himself.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel link

I want to look at how we try to change Gods Word, how we try to manipulate God, and see if God is changeing himself.

Peace.
/quote]

One of the most revealing places to look at how humans are manipulating Gods word, is of course message boards and christian websites. The Word of God is being massacred on message boards, and many are getting their daily bread from these routes of Gods Word.

The Word of God is transfigured by the Holy Spirit, people who think they have the Holy Spirit, are really transfiguring Gods word on their own. The real change is comming from THEIR minds, THEIR belief, not the Holy Spirit! Oh but you can't tell them that, they can't hear that.

And thats how many manipulate Gods Word, by not hearing the Holy Spirit.

Now, let me show you some hardcore truth! The Holy Spirit " Dominates" in its teachings, its conversation, its conversions, its thought process from it to the human, IT Dominates! It will complettely compel the mind, totally teach, universally engulf your thoughts, leaving no room for error!

And I want to go into that. This most important thumbprint of the Spirit.

Peace.

You ever seen how water and oil do not mix? Well this is why so much knowledge on earth, is not the real truth. Its really not Gods Spirit transcending the human mind, its really a self inflated human will. When the real Spirit of God enters the human mind, that human mind will think and do as it is told. I don't know how this misconception, this ugly rumor about a human rebelling against Gods Spirit got out. One cannot rebel against Gods Spirit, not really. But we think God is giving out choices, and asking people will they do this and think that.

You  ever seen a turkey fried? If you place a turkey in a pot of oil to fry it, it will sink to the bottom of the pot as soon as you place it in. When its done, it will pop to the surface on its own. This is what the human mind does when the Holy Spirit is communicating, what God wants in your mind, will very simply pop into it, and God will be done with it. It will be " Cooked into your Spirit." Leaving just what ingredients God wants preserved.

But let me show you somethingelse about the Spirit of God, that Great Spirit. It WILLNOT always place the peices of the puzzle " in order." In Fact, I have NEVER seen it do it orderly. People teach that God does things " In Order." Nothing could be further from the Truth.

And I want to uncover that misconception.

Peace.

The word of God is first a counseling FROM God, and THEN it becomes knowledge. Men are counseled by other men, they receive their knowledge, and call that understanding the word of God. That is not the knowledge of God, it is the knowledge of humans. Job 38:2, again God himself speaking; " Who is this that Darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" This is what people are really speaking, words without knowledge, they feel that because the knowledge is new to them, that it is Gods counsel. They think that if other men reject their knowledge, then it must be Gods knowledge, nothing could be further from the truth.

The knowledge and counsel of men IS further from the truth.

Vs. 36;" Who has PUT wisdom in the INTERMOST BEING, or given understanding to the Mind?" In Christ we live and have our Being. The truth of God, the very counsel of God, is PUT INTO YOUR BEING by God himself! Its not average learning process, its really a matter of YOU accepting that this knowledge has been PUT into you, not that you have learned, you simply have it within you now. Its a Dialog within, another consciousness.

And you don't control it.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

In Psalms 16:7;" The Lord has counseled me, indeed my mind instructs me in the night." God gets into your head, your Spirit, and counsels you. To the degree that your mind relays all that he intends to be dispensated.

Gods counsel, is his purpose. That is what he places into your mind. Isaiah 5:19, let the counsel of the Holy One, or the purpose of God, come to your mind that you may know it.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

You personally don't control how the Holy Spirit does things to you, or anyonelse. You are only fortunate IF it does do things to you. The Holy Spirit is Gods, its not yours. Its controlled by God, not you. Its powered by God, not your goodness or your obedience, or your knowledge and whatever quasi spiritual notions you hold about yourself. So no human can make claims that their life is well ordered by God, because you NEVER really know what and when the Holy Spirit will do things. You only know after the fact, and many of us still are misinterpiting even those facts.

We claim the Spirit showed us this, and the Spirit did that. The Spirit made me say this and caused me to write that. On and on we go, claim upon claims, as if we are controlling this powerful movement from God. Line upon line, precept upon precept, it becomes never ending, and we become self convinced that it is how God does things.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Its all a bunch of compacted confusion, designed to heavily pacify the much coveted spiritual picture of self.

I could get every last one of you inside of the same room tommorrow, and none of you even would know what God will do the next day, and still have problems understanding what he has already done. Nobody knows what the Spirit has done and will do, nobody. Yet everyone is making claims, everyday.

The counsel of God comes at diverse times, only at Gods desire, not at human claim. It may come today, and not show up for another week. It may be fed into your mind while you are asleep. It can come at the very moment you are doing a study, or may come in bits at small intervals. It may skip months or years, you never really know. At least those who truly experience it, really know this. I am not discussing those who pacify themselves in public and private, who claimed they have it within them continually. They don't know what they are saying. When a human, in the end times, holds the Spirit of God continually, your talking about a very, --- very-- powerful person. Because the Spirit of God in the end times, its NOT going to be playing church. Or playing with its power. Its going to be braced for the entrance of God into the dimension of humanity, and the melding of the physical with the Spiritual, and the eruption that will ensue.

Let me change course a bit and go into that.

Peace.