What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[willieH]

willieH: Hey brother T! :hithere:

So what's your point, willie?

hmmm... whats my point?  :Chinscratch:

My "point" is that no Supernatural being, possessing (NEGATIVELY), many of the attributes we believe that our GOD actually possesses, ...is LOGICALLY necessary in this realm... GOD was well able to establish ADVERSITY without such a "being", and in my present observation, did just that...

Of course God could have but He did create Satan. If Satan is just a figment of our imagination then so is Jesus and Michael the archangel. I mean God was well able to establish salvation without such a "being" as Jesus, and in my present observation did not do just that. He could have created an angelic concept without Michael but didn't.

Tony... You subtlely put words in my mouth in order to facilitate your belief... I have never in this ENTIRE CONVERSATION said or implied, that "satan" is a figment of our imagination!  Hey bro, I have some MAJOR Adversity facing me which is a FORMIDABLE ADVERSARY!  "satan" is a very REAL thing... just not a sentient "being" performing a negative agenda...

Just because I find "satan" as a different entity than do you, does not mean (1) that "satan" is imaginary  (2) that "satan" and ITS essence is to be compared to BEINGS which ARE sentient... (3) "coulda's, woulda's & shoulda's" ARE imaginary, so your above deductions and comparisons are thereby, moot.

Saying that God is well able to DO something that YOU concieve is only restating in a clumsy way that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD...  He DID NOT do as you believe, (created a "tempter/accuser") but you are welcome to believe He did...  I have already pointed out that it is the LAW which ACCUSES us... not "satan"... and that SCRIPTURE notes that EVERY MAN (including CHRIST - who was a MAN) is TEMPTED in and by the same method... which is the NATURE of the FLESH, requesting ITS desires to be fulfilled (James 1:14)

Among the many questions you have avoided, here is another for you to do so: Where is it stated that "satan" was a created "being", Tony?

It (my "point") is also, ...whatsoever we as individuals, "believe" ...has the potential to be incorrect... and we must remain humble as we search, in order that when (and if) REVELATION presents itself, we are found in a state, worthy to recieve it... The Pharisees displayed the state which is UNWORTHY, which busied itself with trying to pick apart the testimony of the TRUTH, using RELIGIOUS TRADITION to do so...  and their continuing blindness was the result.  :sigh:

Yes and the Bereans searched the Scriptures to see if these things were so  and they were more noble than the others.

The Bereans, noble as they were (which nobility is noted because they bothered to research and verify that which was "taught" them) were NOT noted as either RELIGIOUS, nor as Pharisees, Scribes or High Priests... were they Tony?

Furthermore my "point" is that, ...REVELATION from GOD, is the ONLY way any of our observations shall be CORRECTED (if indeed they are incorrect), ...this shall not be accomplished by noting ourselves as correct and the other person incorrect, ...by comparing our "belief" to theirs and if they oppose, ...finding them as incorrect...  :dontknow:

I don't ever recall that believing opposite of what the Bible says was a revelation from God. I don't compare my belief to another belief, but compare it to the Bible. What saith the Scriptures? That's the point.

I have gone on many ET forums (still post on one), and this is the very same statement made by them when confronted with UR... They willfully ignore, without explaining the passages which support UR when they are presented to them...

On this subject you see one thing in the WORD of God Tony, that is in opposition to what ...I SEE... and just because YOU or I see this subject a given way, does not mean that that view is necessarily so... 

"What saith the Scripture" has been presented by BOTH of us in this convo...  Two views are ALWAYS supported in the Bible... You should know this bro...  GOD has set up HIS WORD, so that the CARNAL view of any particular subject, is able to be established.  Only SPIRITUAL REVELATION can open up the TRUTH contained in the WORD, not the "letter" of it...  :dontknow:

In this conversation, it has been obvious that there are some that seem to side with your viewpoint, ...but there are also, others which somewhat agree with how I see it... That in itself tells me that there is great likelihood that one of our views of this subject is on the pathway of TRUTH and the other is decieved...  Like with UR... this difference will only be finalized and stamped as TRUTH upon the JUDGMENT and RESURRECTION of GOD...

Until then, we present our belief, and GOD shall enlighten those He has chosen to KNOW the TRUTH on the matter, as He deems to be so...  :dontknow:

I have no more problem with you believing that "satan" is a being, any more than those who wish to continue to believe in Santa!  :cloud9:

THAT is me-point,  ...me-bratha...  :icon_rr:  :happygrin:

I have to admit, I got a good belly laugh out of that above. Thanks bratha!

Hey Tony... I loveya bro... that we disagree on a given subject, doesn't in the slightest remove our brotherhood in CHRIST...  :friendstu: :grouppray:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...  :trampoline:

:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

Just to throw my hat in this . . .first . . .Willie . . .you've been a blessing . .thoroughly enjoy your posts bro . . .again!!!

The thing with Peter . . .I see it is not about a ministry of a man, but a communication of God.  The rock that Christ is building on is not Peter the man, but it's the fact that this was the first time Peter got a revelation from God . . .why do I say that?  For one, because Jesus had to explain where that one came from . . . and two . . . it changed Peter's identity . . .the reason why I don't think it was so much a call to Peter going into ministry is because I believe that came when the call went out to the other eleven.

So . . what was the Rock?  It is the act of the Father REVEALING his son to man.  Upon that rock . . .upon the rock of spiritual revelation . . .not by flesh and blood . . .upon the rock of revelation through intimacy with the Father, Christ will build his kingdom . . .and it changed Peter's nature internally . . .even though it didn't readily manifest that change outwardly right away . .obviously . . .but when the spirit poured out on all flesh . . .when Peter had that upper room experience . . .the transformation of this nature then manifested.

What Jesus was doing here was . . prophesying . . calling things out as though they are . . . Somewhere someone wrote faith is not believing that God can . . it's believing that God will.

Who ever wrote that . . .thank you . .that was my nugget for the week.  There is much that lies beneath the surface of that . . .and my spirit has been hovering over the face of the depths of that ever since.  Birthing of even more life is on it's way!! :happy3:

I agree with what you say above bro... One thing about a FOUNDATIONAL ROCK which is the first laid, and which shall become a GLORIOUS BUILDING... is that other "rocks" are placed upon it... Those "rocks" contain and ARE, ...GOLD, SILVER, and PRECIOUS "STONES"...  :thumbsup:

There is a multi-faceted message from CHRIST in this statement.  That is that CHRIST is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE -- "ROCK"... and Peter is a PRECIOUS STONE, that is placed upon that ROCK, upon which MANY other "precious stones" shall be placed... is the building of the TEMPLE of GOD, in which He resides FOREVER...

  :bowing: In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...    :declare:

:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Love it, Willie..... :thumbsup:

[Tony N]

Dear Willie,
Let's have a new lookie at this verse: 

Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."
And Yahweh is saying to Satan, Yahweh is rebuking you, Satan. And Yahweh Who is choosing Jerusalem is rebuking you. Is not this wooden poker being rescued from the fire? (Zec.3:1,2). Concordant Version

  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  (2)  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (Zec 3:1-2) KJV

There are three beings above: Joshua, an angel or messenger and Yahweh.

Joshua is standing before the angel.
Satan is standing at his right hand.

God rebukes Satan for resisting or being adversitive to Joshua.

It doesn't say that God rebukes the adversity but that God rebukes Satan as the one stanind there resisting Joshua.

This shows Satan is the being that was being adverse to Joshua.

God did not rebuke Adversity for being adverse to Joshua.

If you are going to allegorize Satan's name you must also allegorize Yahweh's and the angel and Joshua's name too.

[claypot]

Willie wrote.......

Where is it stated that "satan" was a created "being"

I find this very interesting. It must be written in the Bible or Tony says he wouldn't believe it.

I have to do some research here. Thanks again Willie!

cp

[peacemaker]

If Satan is just a figment of our imagination then so is Jesus and Michael the archangel.

The Hebrew meaning for the name Michael is "who is like God."

"Who is like God?"

In the Greek, and compared to the Old Testament language – the word angel means; messenger. And, the word arch; chief, or principle, as in the greatest or highest.

Thus, Archangel basically means; The Chief, or greatest Messenger.

"The Highest, or greatest Messenger who is like the Father; the Angel of the LORD."

peacemaker

[Tony N]

Of course God created Satan:

Job 26:13 By His spirit the heavens were made seemly; His hand travailed with the fugitive serpent.

  In +Job 26:13, we read,

          His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

If this were the utterance of one of Job's friends, we might well
beware, lest it be merely human philosophy, for the Lord said, "ye
have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as My servant Job
hath" (Job 42:7).

     Besides, we must be careful to check the translation of the
vital expressions. The Revisers change "formed" to "pierced," yet
the same word in 39:1 is left "the hinds do {calve}." There is
more consistency between "form" and "calve" than "pierce" and
"calve," yet the Revisers have made a change in the right
direction. The Hebrew word {ghool} refers to the {travail} which
accompanies birth (Isa.13:8; 23:4; 26:17; 54:1; 66:78). When
Eliphaz used this word, the translators themselves rendered it,
"the wicked man {travaileth with pain}" (Job 15:20) and the
Revisers concur. This, it will be seen, is allied to both
{forming} and {piercing}. How incongruous "pierce" is will be seen
if we should render Deut.32:18, "thou hast forgotten God {that
pierced thee}." They had forgotten the God Who had suffered in the
travail of their birth.

     Coming back, now, to the serpent, Job declares that

          By His spirit He garnished the heavens;
          His hand has travailed with the fugitive serpent.

     Note the contrast between the garnishing of the heavens by
His {spirit} and the painful production of the serpent by His
{hand}. The spirit is used of intimate and

p207                     God it was Who Travailed with the Serpent

vital association, the hand holds its work at a distance and
suggests power and skill, rather than communion.

     The immediate application of these lines is, of course, to
the material heavens. But no one who has studied the stars and
their relation to holy writ, will fail to see a far deeper
meaning. The stars are often used as figures of celestial powers,
and in the ancient constellations, both Draconis and Serpens have
always represented the Satan of Scripture. The Dragon's tail drew
a third part of the stars of heaven (Rev.12:4). This does not
prove that we have here the divine description of Satan's origin,
but it is ever so much nearer a demonstration than the passages
which are usually produced.

     But there is one more link which will put the matter beyond
question. Not only is the term {serpent} (Hebrew, {nahghahsh} the
same as the name of Eve's tempter in Eden's garden (Gen.3:1,2,4,
13,14), but Isaiah describes it in precisely the same terms, the
{fugitive serpent} (Isa.27:1):

     In that day Jehovah with His sore and great and strong sword,
     Shall punish leviathan the fugitive serpent,
     Even leviathan that crooked serpent;
     And He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

     The context clearly shows that this will be when the Lord
comes to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity
(Isa.26:21). Its connection with the twelfth chapter of the
Unveiling is too close to deny. If Satan is that "ancient serpent"
(Rev.20:2), how can we help identify him with Isaiah and Job and
Genesis? All will acknowledge Genesis and Isaiah. As precisely the
same name and descriptive term is used in Job as in Isaiah, the
evidence is as conclusive as it can well be. The "fugitive
serpent" of Job is the same as the "fugitive serpent" of Isaiah.
The "fugitive" serpent of Job (A. V. "crooked") and Isaiah seems
to refer to the constellation Serpens, for it flees from the grasp
of

p208                                   Sin and Pain began Together

Ophiuchus. The "crooked" serpent of Isaiah may be Draco (or
Draconis), which winds its way among the northern stars.

     The Unveiling and Isaiah give us his end, Genesis and Job
give us his beginning. He is not introduced to us in the garden as
an angel of light, though such he simulates today. He was seen as
a {serpent}. Job gives us his origin. The One Who has garnished
the heavens--{His} hand was pained with the travail of bringing
forth the serpent. (Unsearchab le Riches vol.15).

[peacemaker]

The stars are often used as figures of celestial powers, and in the ancient constellations, both Draconis and Serpens have always represented the Satan of Scripture. The Dragon's tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven (Rev.12:4).

The fall of an angel is a fundamental fallacy in human theology, if this is your intention?

If we take this as a parable, wrapped in a fable and disguise it as an allegory, we would be closer to the truth.

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so whose spirit spoke?


peacemaker

[willieH]

willieH: Tony, tonE, toni... compadre!  :friendstu:

Dear Willie,
Let's have a new lookie at this verse: 

Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."
And Yahweh is saying to Satan, Yahweh is rebuking you, Satan. And Yahweh Who is choosing Jerusalem is rebuking you. Is not this wooden poker being rescued from the fire? (Zec.3:1,2). Concordant Version

  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  (2)  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (Zec 3:1-2) KJV

There are three beings above: Joshua, an angel or messenger and Yahweh.

Joshua is standing before the angel.
Satan is standing at his right hand.

God rebukes Satan for resisting or being adversitive to Joshua.

Sorry Tony, but there is nothing in this set of verses which notes there are 3 "beings" in this instance...

YHVH is a being, I completely concur...
Joshua is also a being, and again I will completely concur with this... however,

"satan" is present whenever a SON of GOD is present before YHVH as is noted in Job 1:6-7

It doesn't say that God rebukes the adversity but that God rebukes Satan as the one stanind there resisting Joshua.

Tony, as long as you remain in the LETTER of Scripture, you will encounter difficulty in finding and discovering, the SPIRIT of Scripture...

You are stuck in the LITERAL observance of (1) standing (2) right hand (3) proposing that Scripture is naming "beings" which in this case it DOES NOT...

That "satan" [adversity/adversary] is present and that presence is noted in it as "standing" before GOD, does not equate that ADVERSITY to a "sentient" being, nor that it is actually "standing" before GOD... GOD is simply rebuking the ADVERSITY present, because JOSHUA is present...

Just as would, a policeman tell the robber to "drop the gun"...  :dontknow:

Or instruct the "naked one" to "put on some clothes"  :laughing7:

Our  [USA] flag "STANDS" for freedom Tony... but in actuality, it has no legs, ...neither does it tire from it's "standing" and sit once & awhile, ...neither does it hear it's opposers  shout "DOWN in FRONT", because their views are obscured and opposed by it's "stand"!  :laugh:

This shows Satan is the being that was being adverse to Joshua.

Nothing is said of a BEING that is ADVERSE to Joshua in this passage Tony... YOU erect this thought by your belief... the text says NOTHING of "satan" as a "being".

God did not rebuke Adversity for being adverse to Joshua.

ADVERSITY is PRESENT in Joshua because he is a MAN... and ALL MEN are SINFUL, and therefore ADVERSE to HOLINESS... get a clue dear brother...  :dontknow:

Don't you know by now that you and I shall not find a common ground?  I spent almost 30 years believing as you do... I am quite aware of your observance of this, and know the drill!  You are welcome to believe it... It is NOT my agenda to change your belief...

Send "satan" cards on halloween if you wish... I'll have not part of GLORIFYING a non-existent EVIL "being" with OMNIPRESENCE... you are quite welcome to continue to in my place...  I have no desire to return to the mud of such fallacy...

As in the case of Eternal Torment (which I once believed, albeit grudgingly)... I shall NEVER go back to believing that LIE... You are welcome to believe as you do, and... as a matter of fact, I have no problem whatsoever with you doing so, ...for you would NOT believe as you do, unless YHVH had decided long prior to your lifetime here on earth (which He has), that you would...  :dontknow:

If you are going to allegorize Satan's name you must also allegorize Yahweh's and the angel and Joshua's name too.

You entertain the idea that "satan" is a "NAME", ...dear brother, ...I do not!  :laughing7:

Do you also believe that this text notes the literal "right hand" Tony?  Did it have all 5 digits?  Was it calloused or smooth?  Was it dirty or clean?  Come on brud!  :rolleye:

Ga-head, matey!  :URWelcome: (as Taffy might say)... believe in your TRADITIONAL "satan" if you must... that presents no problem to me... I am over that part of my life... 

GOD is LOVE... He does NOT create EVIL beings... He creates scenarios, which allow HIS CHILDREN to gain the Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, and within His creation of these scenario's they encounter in TIME... He (God) has made them to NATURALLY gravitate to DISOBEDIENCE... that they might gain this KNOWLEDGE...  :dontknow:

No EVIL  :Evilgrin: (halloween  :talkangry:) "being" is necessary...  :laughing7:

  :bowing: In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...    :declare:

:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

[Tony N]

Willie wrote:

"satan" is present whenever a SON of GOD is present before YHVH as is noted in Job 1:6-7

You state that as if Satan is always present with a son of God. This is not so.

Job 1:6-7  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.

Notice, Satan didn't say: What do You  mean Where have I been? I've been here all the time with the sons of God.

No, Willie, Satan was not there then he came.

Since Yahweh is a being, Joshua is a being, the angel is a being therefore Satan is a being. Satan is standing there just as Joshua is standing there as is the angel standing there. You can't pick and choose what flavor you want, Willie.

Tony, as long as you remain in the LETTER of Scripture, you will encounter difficulty in finding and discovering, the SPIRIT of Scripture...

You are stuck in the LITERAL observance of (1) standing (2) right hand (3) proposing that Scripture is naming "beings" which in this case it DOES NOT...

Funny, Jesus always quoted the literness of the Scriptures when Satan would come out of nowhere and try Jesus. If they are good enough for Jesus they are good enough for me.

Jesus said "My words," yes, Willie, "My words are spirit and are truth." The soulish man is not able to understand the words of the Bible for they are spirit and truth and he is soulish. I understand them, Willie.

Luk 10:18 Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

Adversity is not falling but a being called Satan was seen falling out of heaven. Does a concept fall? Did Jesus see a concept falling out of heaven? No, Willie.

Every blessing to you bro! :thumbsup:

[claypot]

Willie wrote:

"satan" is present whenever a SON of GOD is present before YHVH as is noted in Job 1:6-7

You state that as if Satan is always present with a son of God. This is not so.

Job 1:6-7  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.

Notice, Satan didn't say: What do You  mean Where have I been? I've been here all the time with the sons of God.

No, Willie, Satan was not there then he came.

Since Yahweh is a being, Joshua is a being, the angel is a being therefore Satan is a being. Satan is standing there just as Joshua is standing there as is the angel standing there. You can't pick and choose what flavor you want, Willie.

Tony, as long as you remain in the LETTER of Scripture, you will encounter difficulty in finding and discovering, the SPIRIT of Scripture...

You are stuck in the LITERAL observance of (1) standing (2) right hand (3) proposing that Scripture is naming "beings" which in this case it DOES NOT...

Funny, Jesus always quoted the literness of the Scriptures when Satan would come out of nowhere and try Jesus. If they are good enough for Jesus they are good enough for me.

Jesus said "My words," yes, Willie, "My words are spirit and are truth." The soulish man is not able to understand the words of the Bible for they are spirit and truth and he is soulish. I understand them, Willie.

Luk 10:18 Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

Adversity is not falling but a being called Satan was seen falling out of heaven. Does a concept fall? Did Jesus see a concept falling out of heaven? No, Willie.

Every blessing to you bro! :thumbsup:

Hey Brother Tony,

Good try but with all due respect and of course from my puny perspective, this reply of yours Tony, sounds strangly like a barking of a dog, if you get my drift. Just teasing a bit. I do respect your strength and agility especially in respect to Sripture.

You are my Brother and I totally appreciate how God is using you to bring out such golden nuggets of Scripture.

I seek to present God and a reason for life before all my friends and 'neighbors' and they all live in a mostly physical literal existence yet they know they deal with the invisible things of life like adversity and anger and love and jealousy and more.

I am totally confused about a statement of yours Brother. You wrote.....

Funny, Jesus always quoted the literness of the Scriptures when Satan would come out of nowhere and try Jesus. If they are good enough for Jesus they are good enough for me.

Then you wrote that Jesus' words are spirit. To me that means they are spiritual. Yet you say you only believe what is written in the Bible but you seem to be saying Jesus' words are physical in meaning, not spiritual. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. This sounds to me like a natural mind trying to make sense of spiritual things but again this is just my view.

Tony, I see God has you in a place that is perfect for what I and probably many other people need. He has hardened both your heart and my heart to what we believe and He is hardening it even more through this discourse. I know I feel good about this and I assume you do too and what really makes me happy is that there are those who read these discussions and, by Gods grace, will grow. My prayer is that they will see the ridiculousness of one of these positions and the truth of the other and grow in God.

My other prayer is that wherever either of us are wrong God will shatter the hardness and allow growth to continue in Him.

cp

[claypot]

Job 1:6-7  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.

This fits so perfectly for me when I view 'the earth' as each person. We are made up of the earth which symbolizes that we are 'the earth'. Now this fits because I too see Satan as within the very essence of people going 'to and fro'.

Jesus Himself said that our enemies are those of our own household and as His words are spiritual in meaning I do not think He means that my enemy is my daughter or pet.

Jesus also said......For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:  20  these are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man.mt15.19

Out of a mans OWN household. Wow.

So to sum up about Satan going to and fro in the earth. This speaks volumes to me and backs up Jesus' own words about Satan, the adversarial spirit, being within.

I just am seeing too that it is a hint from God to us about how we are made and why all have sinned and come short of the glory of Him. Satan is a very subtle essence that, from the creation of people, has lurked within, going to and fro.

cp

[Sarah]

CP,

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job. And I agree. The thing about the word satan is that it is as Willie says, a word denoting position. I once heard someone say it is an office, like president. Many people at different times assume the office. Satan is the name of the office of being adverse. In Job, it was the elements, the tribes, and the boils. In other places of scripture it is assumed by a person, Peter and God. In other places it is personified thoughts, Zechariah, Judas and Jesus.

Tony,
Do you believe satan is omnipresent?

[Nathan]

great question Sarah . . . Looking forward to the outcome of that one.

I have been really enjoying the input of Willie and Claypot on this thread . . you guys are washing me with your insights and perspectives.  I pray that I can bless you as much as you have blessed me!!

[Tony N]

CP,

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job. And I agree. The thing about the word satan is that it is as Willie says, a word denoting position. I once heard someone say it is an office, like president. Many people at different times assume the office. Satan is the name of the office of being adverse. In Job, it was the elements, the tribes, and the boils. In other places of scripture it is assumed by a person, Peter and God. In other places it is personified thoughts, Zechariah, Judas and Jesus.

Tony,
Do you believe satan is omnipresent?

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.  :laughing7:

adversary in the New Testament is "diabalo" in Greek and does not always speak of Satan.
Satan in the New Testament is "catana" where 'c' is a soft 'c.'

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not I choose you, the twelve, and one of you is an adversary?

Notice Jesus did not say that one of them is THE Adversary. People in the Scriptures can be adversarial yet not be THE Adversary.

There are ecclesias which are not THE church such as:

Act 19:38 Indeed, then, if Demetrius and the artificers with him have a charge against anyone, court sessions are being held, and there are proconsuls; let them be indicting one another."
Act 19:39 Now if you are seeking for anything concerning other things, in the legal ecclesia will it be explained."

This legal ecclesia was a group of legal people, ones legally constituted, and properly authorized to hear and determine on the subject.

And there is THE ecclesia of God and Christ.  Just because a group of lawyers are an ecclesia does not mean that those group of lawyers are Christians. Ecclesia just means "out called."

Likewise one who is called an adversary is not necessarily THE Adversary.

Likewise there are many lords in the Scriptures. Just because one is called "lord" does not mean they are THE LORD.

Likewise there are many people who are called "god" in the Bible. This does not mean they are THE GOD.

You dig?

[claypot]

Sarah, you wrote...

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

And Tony, what about Sarahs other question, Brother? Do you believe Satan is omnipresent?

cp

[Nathan]

Sarah, you wrote...

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

And Tony, what about Sarahs other question, Brother? Do you believe Satan is omnipresent?

cp

Well . . .didn't you see it?  He answered it just as clear as day . . . "is Satan omnipresent?"  Answer . . .Satan is not in you. . . .there.

Next question?

[Sarah]

I think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

:thumbsup: 

Illustrative language is tricky. A word can become a noun, a proper noun, an adjective, an adverb, and a verb. What if the word 'jealous' were to become obsolete and years from now readers read this in ancient holy texts?

His name is Jealous. Jealous hugs me with his green venom and spews jealousy into my ears. He walks to and fro in the earth. He stands before me and tempts me. I must resist him. He is to be cast down and out.

[Tony N]

Sarah, you wrote...

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

And Tony, what about Sarahs other question, Brother? Do you believe Satan is omnipresent?

cp

Well . . .didn't you see it?  He answered it just as clear as day . . . "is Satan omnipresent?"  Answer . . .Satan is not in you. . . .there.

Next question?

Nathan, by your attitude I am sincerly beginning to wonder which seed you are of. You are very adversarial and mocking much like your father.

How could I believe Satan is omnipresent when the Bible never says he is omnipresent?

[Nathan]

Because you never answer the questions Tony.  How do we know that Satan "isn't" omnipresent?  Does the Bible say he's not?

[Molly]

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

[Doc]

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

Then there's still more than one 'diabolos' (wrt the common view), according to this definition.

I simply see it as Jesus saying "one of you is taking the role of a diabolos".

[claypot]

I'm not trying to get you in any way Tony but I am curious as to your response to an earlier question you must have overlooked. It is this........

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I asked......

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

cp

[Molly]

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

Then there's still more than one 'diabolos' (wrt the common view), according to this definition.

I simply see it as Jesus saying "one of you is taking the role of a diabolos".

Then why doesn't he say that?

If diabolos is a spirit, it can confront and enter into people and also leave people.


11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

--Mat 4


"devil"

diabolos

[Doc]

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

Then there's still more than one 'diabolos' (wrt the common view), according to this definition.

I simply see it as Jesus saying "one of you is taking the role of a diabolos".

Then why doesn't he say that?

If diabolos is a spirit, it can confront and enter into people and also leave people.


11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

--Mat 4


"devil"

diabolos

I think it is a spirit, Molly. Much like what the scripture refers to as the "spirit of antichrist", which has the potential to manifest in any human being. I just don't necessarily see it as a "personal" high ranking fallen angel. More like principalities, powers, and spiritual forces of wickedness in high places.

I am interested in the "catana" thing Tony mentioned though. I'm going to have to look that up.