What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[Molly]

My eyes have been opened and I have seen spirit things, entities of spiritual substance that look like giant "daddy-long-legs" spiders or tentacled large octopus-like things intermeshed with a physical cancer on a human victim.  This thing was making a pumping motion.  That is my personal experience more than once.

I know of brothers that have rebuked cancer spirits and seen them drop off for whom they're praying. 

:cloud9: I have seen the same things reFormer. What you saw was making a pumping motion trying to pierce the "heart", ie. the sting of death.

Add to that, the Lord taught me that the carnal mind is like a spider. A spider web is like a fowler's net, in that it catches up our soul in soulish ties, and when enough have been used to slow down our ascent/growth in the Spirit, it then comes in and paralyzes it's victim so it can suck the very life out of it. O death, where is thy sting? Thus, to be carnally minded, IS death.

Sin, missing the mark of the mind of Christ as revealed by the Word and the Spirit, is what creates these soulish ties, until the victim loses the will to struggle against it finally. Sin satisfies for a season. Blessings....

Yikes. :mshock:  That sounds like the dendrites coming out of a neuron--which would be ...thought, emotion, action...


http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP116/1168172/


http://www2.cedarcrest.edu/academic/bio/hale/bioT_EID/lectures/tetanus-neuron.gif

[Cardinal]

Until we have manifest victory over death we have a ways to go no matter how advanced or significant we might be.  It is a lie to say we have complete victory over the devil while still in corrupting flesh.  As long as something other than God reigns over us we don't yet have the liberty for which we are destined.  We may be walking in the light on the present place along the path where we now are, enjoying God's approval and the anointing of the Holy Spirit; but, until the last enemy is defeated we are not home.

"Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood  is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." (1 Co 15:50, CLV)  Then it talks about not everyone necessarily dying, but all must be changed.  Now "corruption" is the decay of a corpse, so it is not in death.  The corpse cannot put this on, though, "...the dead will be roused incorruptible." (vs. 52, CLV)  This total victory must include the physical body.  "...this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality." (vs.53, CLV)  We who are alive are mortal, we are "corruptible" but not to the extent of "corruption" of a corpse.  It is the living who, though mortal, must put on immortality.  What God does is by faith, so we have more to hear!

:cloud9: Amen, Amen, Amen..... :thumbsup: we are the generation that is to enter into the promised land, ie. the full redemption of our bodies. The ark went ahead 2000 cubits (2 days in type) and we must keep our eyes on the ark because we have not passed this way before. Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony...  :laughing7:

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Dear Tony, ...bless your  :HeartThrob:  ...I really don't think you WANT your question answered...  :laughing7:  And that is fine with me...  :dontknow:

ADVERSITY is at work in individuals... and when the HEDGE was removed, it meant that ADVERSITY which surrounded JOB, was free to have a hey-day on him...

And btw, ...Dear Tony, I DID answer your question, but you did not bother to read my answer!  

IMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

I would think that within your experience (which I am sure is quite adaquate), that you should be aware of this...

I ...SAID... that (1) satan is not a "he or him" (2) that adversity within us, can bring forth undesireable manifestations in our experience... like diseases such as cancer, aids, and natural disasters such as famine, tornadoes, earthquakes, car accidents, etc...

These are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

Some more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD... which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!  :laugh:

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

No Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... (Rom 1:18)... and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANE, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten...  :dontknow:

ADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

For the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan"... :rolleye:

He does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

Peace dude...   :angel4:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  :gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:  :angelharp:

[Cardinal]

Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

:cloud9: I hear you  :winkgrin: Blessings....

[claypot]

Willie, great insight IMO.

With Tony, I have made the same comments about him. He has his own style and it is his way of dealing with truth. I have said too that he is the cause of much good discussion on this thread. Through his relentless style the same things keep getting brought up but in different ways. He is adversarial to my way of thinking as I am to his yet this is a perfect example of how God uses satans works for good.

Willie, I am swimming with delight through your thoughts. Keep them coming!

cp

[Sarah]

Willie,

I have enjoyed some of your thoughts. My only concern is that you are starting to sound like one of Job's friends; these things happened because of something Job did, a secret sin, etc. It seems the point of Job is answering the age old question, why does evil/adverse things happen? In the beginning of the book the answer seems to be to test wheather man will love God through adversity, and at the end the answer is only that God is soverign and who are we to question.

[sheila]

  actually systemic boils can kill you..Hezekiah had a boil that

  threatened his life.The ONLY REASON SATAN DID NOT KILL

  JOB,Is BECAUSE OF GOD'S COMMAND

  unclean and evil spirits are the opposite of holy spirit

 the spirit of LIFE,Love  comes from God and gives us life.

  the evil spirits are parsitical and bring death

    He will do away with them..they are merely a 'tool' that

   He  uses for our good and evil expierence on earth.

  Now..he works in our fleshly organism..seeds thought and

desires in our  mind and heart as the adversary....gives false

 prophesy, false dreams..is a liar and mankiller from the

  beginning.   There is a mystery of lawlessness that is to

 be revealed and the mystery of godliness that is to be revealed

   And it all boils down to these spirits...


  Spirit causes the mind of man to conceive..then motivate to

 action and bring about manifestations[the unseen is apparent

 through outward physical demonstration]


  it is war..between these spirits..a battle in our minds and

  hearts for control of our flesh.


         man-i-fe[a]st to show plainly,to make to appear distinctly



  Matt 13;40 wheat and tares parable was given to show the

       two contrasts, also. sheep and goat another wittness

       foolish and wise virgins... a tree and it's fruit[Matt7;15]

       wise and foolish builders

                                    Sheila
   

[Tony N]

willieH: Hi Tony...  :laughing7:

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Dear Tony, ...bless your  :HeartThrob:  ...I really don't think you WANT your question answered...  :laughing7:  And that is fine with me...  :dontknow:

If I didn't want it answered I would not have asked for you to answer me.

ADVERSITY is at work in individuals... and when the HEDGE was removed, it meant that ADVERSITY which surrounded JOB, was free to have a hey-day on him...

And btw, ...Dear Tony, I DID answer your question, but you did not bother to read my answer! 

If you answered it, why did I think you didn't?

IMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

You are the one being defensive, not me. And now you accuse me of wrong doing. Willie, I'm disappointed in you.

I would think that within your experience (which I am sure is quite adaquate), that you should be aware of this...

I ...SAID... that (1) satan is not a "he or him" (2) that adversity within us, can bring forth undesireable manifestations in our experience... like diseases such as cancer, aids, and natural disasters such as famine, tornadoes, earthquakes, car accidents, etc...

Satan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.
So, not meaning to be cryptic or baiting as you falsely accuse me of, but how does Satan in our flesh call for tornados especially when we don't merit it? Jesus didn't merit the suffering he endured, neither did Joseph in the O.T. and neither did Job.

These are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

I bet Job and friends thought he was dying.

Some more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD... which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!  :laugh:

But Satan is male gender and not an neuter gender. God sent Satan to go after Job. God didn't talk to Job's flesh and tell the satan in Job's flesh to attack all Job had.

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

No Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... (Rom 1:18)... and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANG, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten...  :dontknow:

The answer doesn't elude me. I just want you to be forthright in answering me. I want you to face your own theology. Furthermore I wouldn't get beat up in an alley because of God's wrath. God is not reckoning our offenses to us and is at peace with us. As Sarah wrote: Job's friends who wrongly spoke of God (God said so) said these things must have happened to Job for the sins in his life. They didn't. And neither would I get beat up for some previous sins in my life.

ADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

So, according to you, rather than Satan going before God, somehow Job's flesh and the Sabeans' flesh went before God and God told the satan in their flesh to go after Job but don't kill Job?

For the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan"... :rolleye:

For the last time (hopefully) Willie, I never said God is manipulated. God is the One who brought up Job before Satan. God told Satan that Job was righteous. Job did nothing to deserve his evil.

He does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

Peace dude...   :angel4:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  :gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:  :angelharp:

So, I think you answered my question that Satan was in Job's flesh and Job sinned or did something to get God mad at him. So the satan in Job's flesh and the Sabeans flesh went after Job and somehow the flesh brought forth the fire from heaven and the wind and the thievery? Please, Willie, I don't think so. It doesn't work that way.

Tony

[gregoryfl]

Tony, or anyone:

Just before all this happened to Job, the Bible says this:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Now, knowing that nothing is put in scripture arbitrarily, I would ask, why is this even mentioned? Could this have anything at all to do with what happened to Job? I believe it does, but if not, then for what other reason is it even mentioned?

Thanks,

Ron

[Tony N]

Tony, or anyone:

Just before all this happened to Job, the Bible says this:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Now, knowing that nothing is put in scripture arbitrarily, I would ask, why is this even mentioned? Could this have anything at all to do with what happened to Job? I believe it does, but if not, then for what other reason is it even mentioned?

Thanks,

Ron

It shows Job as a righteous man. And since Job did offer up sacrifices for his children they were covered by those sacrifices.
So the evil that came upon the children was not for anything they did just as the evil the came upon Job was not for anything he did.

Job's friends said the evil came to him because he must have done some sin but God said they spoke wrongly.

Job, by the way, is a fitting type of Christ.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sarah... :hithere:

Willie,

I have enjoyed some of your thoughts. My only concern is that you are starting to sound like one of Job's friends; these things happened because of something Job did, a secret sin, etc.

Job had "did" nothing outwardly which is so stated by YHVH in the opening chapter of Job, noting that Job had "avoided" evil... but nothing is said that he had not beheld it (evil) in the heart... Job was a MAN, and therefore his HEART in its NATURAL stated, is Desparately Wicked... (Jer 17:9) :dontknow:

It seems the point of Job is answering the age old question, why does evil/adverse things happen? In the beginning of the book the answer seems to be to test wheather man will love God through adversity, and at the end the answer is only that God is soverign and who are we to question.

I observe God as COMPLETELY SOVEREIGN... all that occurs in His Creation, and to His Children has been outlined long before it happens... BY HIM...  Then, when we enter TIME, we walk the pathway which He had already declared we would... 

Example of this is found in Romans 9:11... Jacob and Esau followed a pathway which was already in place even before they were born... GOD is IMPARTIAL, therefore... what was spoken of them (outlined before they were BORN, and had neither "DONE" any good Or evil), the same is applicable to all others whom GOD has chosen shall walk in TIME...

This whole thing is NOT about US... it is completely, about HIM...  He is revealing to HIS BODY, Who and What He ...IS... that forever we shall be able to VIEW His GLORY as it truly is, having had this experience...

Let me make a quick explain... If you are RICH and NEVER see anything other than PROSPERITY... how may you esteem your scenario?  You shall think it to be NORMAL or "the way it IS"... Not thankful, nor appreciative... rather, complacent... expectant... observant of that prosperity, not as a great thing... rather as a "taken for granted" thing... 

However... if you were to be thrust into POVERTY... you shall SOON gain a perspective that shall NEVER leave you, which GLORIFIES that prosperity, and instills a thankfulness for its existence...  Ever see the Mel Brooks movie "Life Stinks"?  Rent it sometime... it completely displays what I have said here... (and its a really funny movie, to boot!  :laughing7:)

The "age old question" you ask above -- "why do evil/adverse things happen?" is easily answered IMO...

This IS the process of KNOWING (the VEIL removed from) both Good AND Evil... for Good cannot be KNOWN without EVIL and vice-versa... and THAT is WHY evil/adverse things happen...

I agree Sarah, that WE are NOT allowed to QUESTION, nor should we... God makes this plain in His WORD that the CLAY has no "right" to "talk back" to the POTTER as to how and why it is shapen as the POTTER so decides... (Rom 9:20)


In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shiela...  :cloud9:

  actually systemic boils :dontknow:can kill you

:shakepoint:  A cold can KILL you... but normally... with boils (which was my point), it is NOT the case as is seen with MOST CANCER and AIDS... which were my examples by comparision...  :dontknow:

Remember that GOD noted that whatever "satan" (adversity) (Job 2:7) brought against JOB, it was NOT to be LIFE THREATENING... (Job 2:6) :dontknow:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

[Sarah]

Job had "did" nothing outwardly which is so stated by YHVH in the opening chapter of Job, noting that Job had "avoided" evil... but nothing is said that he had not beheld it (evil) in the heart... Job was a MAN, and therefore his HEART in its NATURAL stated, is Desparately Wicked... (Jer 17:9)

Of course Job wasn't perfect as he is a man, but it appears that the author of Job makes the point that he was 'blameless, 'upright', 'feared God', and 'shunned evil'. Therefore, let me rephrase what Job is trying to answer;  Why do GOOD men go through adversity? It isn't because of the evil they have done or thought, but as you say here...

This IS the process of KNOWING (the VEIL removed from) both Good AND Evil... for Good cannot be KNOWN without EVIL and vice-versa... and THAT is WHY evil/adverse things happen...

Job supports this in that at the end of his trials as he says,"My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." It isn't so much because of sins, as Job's friends accuse him of, that he goes through these trials, but so that Job can know God.

[CHB]

Job had "did" nothing outwardly which is so stated by YHVH in the opening chapter of Job, noting that Job had "avoided" evil... but nothing is said that he had not beheld it (evil) in the heart... Job was a MAN, and therefore his HEART in its NATURAL stated, is Desparately Wicked... (Jer 17:9)

Of course Job wasn't perfect as he is a man, but it appears that the author of Job makes the point that he was 'blameless, 'upright', 'feared God', and 'shunned evil'. Therefore, let me rephrase what Job is trying to answer;  Why do GOOD men go through adversity? It isn't because of the evil they have done or thought, but as you say here...

This IS the process of KNOWING (the VEIL removed from) both Good AND Evil... for Good cannot be KNOWN without EVIL and vice-versa... and THAT is WHY evil/adverse things happen...

Job supports this in that at the end of his trials as he says,"My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." It isn't so much because of sins, as Job's friends accuse him of, that he goes through these trials, but so that Job can know God.

If judged by Job's works, he was righteous. The problem was, Job was righteous and knew it. That is, Job thought because of the works he did God punished him unjustly. He thought he really didn't deserve the trials he was having.

Notice: Job argued with God, felt sorry for himself, cursed the day he was born, bragged about the things he had done for others. Was a little prideful. He said (Job 29:The young men saw me, and hid themselves:and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth.

Here was Job's problem: (Job 29:8-17)
Because I delievered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.
Icaused the widows heart to sing for joy.
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me.
I was eyes to the blind, ans feet was I to the lame.
I was a father to the poor: and the cause I knew not I searched out.
I brake the jaws of the wicked.

(Verse 25) of that chapter I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforted the mourners.

Do you see God in any of the above verses? It kind of reminds me of what God did to Nebuchadnezzar.He didn't give God all the credit for the things he did. This is why Job finally said "now mine eye seeth thee".

It wasn't the works that Job did that was wrong, it was his attitude about those works that was the problem. Job reminded me a little of the pharisees, they kept the law that was required of them but they were also prideful, boastful, and self righteous. 

It is the same with us today, we want to take credit for things that belong to God. We don't give him all the honor, glory and praise, we are a bunch of self righteous, prideful, boastful, people.

You might say the book of Job is human nature.

CHB

[Tony N]

Good food for thought CHB and well thought out and presented.  :thumbsup:

[claypot]

CHB, you wrote.....

You might say the book of Job is human nature.

That is much said in a few words!

I see the whole Bible as the blueprint of each person and creation as a whole. The Bible is the DNA map if you will.

cp

[sheila]

 Job justified God when he repented of his attitude..that was

  borne of ignorance..".things I knew not" Elihu's anger

  burned because Job justified himself,rather than God.


   Then God,justified Job before Eliphaz and his two 'freinds'

  after he had repented in 'dust and ashes'

   ...these freinds...in order to 'justify" God..felt they had

 to 'condemn" Job..   see it all the time..people's images of

God..condemning mankind to everlasting torment.See it all the

time ...men condemning God for their 'unwarrented' suffering


  Willie; I said 'the only reason satan didn't kill Job was

  God's command" I know he could not take his life...

  I made the comment about the seriousness of malignant/

 systemic boils,d/t a sentence that seemed to diminish

 Job's suffering. Job escaped by the 'skin of his teeth'[Job

 19;20]  


  Ezekiel 14;20  though Noah,Daniel  and Job,were in it,

 as I live,saith the Lord God,they shall deliver neither son

 nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by

 their righteousness.


  James 5;11  Behold,we count them happy which endure.Ye

  have heard of the pateince of Job,and have seen the end of

  the Lord;  ; that the Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy .


   He is an example for us of enduring suffering when we are

 ignorant of the reason for it, or feel it is unwarranted.Job did

 not 'curse God and die' he held on to his spiritual life..in

  hope of an audience with God.He cried out for understanding.


     We,too, must suffer for righteousness sake..if we

  follow Christ...if it be the will of God, that we do so.

                                Sheila

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony...  :Peace:

Let me begin by saying that I hold you as my brother, and I mean no offenses to you.  But at the same time, I am not into playing games in discussion... use of sarcastic comments sour my taste to discuss... If I have misread your true intentions, I apologize.   :sigh:

IMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

You are the one being defensive, not me. And now you accuse me of wrong doing. Willie, I'm disappointed in you.

I'm sorry you are disappointed in my Tony... and I am hardly being defensive... I just dont wish to play games with questions that are not plain & simple... If you have been offended by that, I am sorry... And it is entirely possible that it is my descrepancy not yours, and that others might have observed your questions as "to the point and clear", I did not...  :dontknow:

Satan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.

I am admittedly not an linguist, nor a scholar in Greek or Hebrew, however in my studies I have come upon commentaries made by scholars of both which include these observations:

Gender is not attached to this word "satan".   Matter of fact...  In Greek, it is my understanding that CONTEXT determines (but does not REQUIRE) the use of pronouns which are presented in English, they do NOT appear in the Greek as pronouns...

For instance the pronoun inferences in John 1:3 [him], John 1:4 [him], John 1:10-11  [he,him]  -- which refer to CHRIST named later in the context... are NOT in the text as pronouns, and are inserted notations of masculine gender because they refer to an entity which was masculine in human form noted later on in the CONTEXT.  However... the Greek Language does not define the word LOGOS as possesing a particular gender... which is the WORD of GOD, to which the pronouns "He and Him" are used in reference TO...

Furthermore, the word "satan" as used in the NT, is DIRECT reference to the HEBREW Word "satan" (not a "Greek word, originating in the Greek language) which has no gender... it is an adjective, not a noun.

So, not meaning to be cryptic or baiting as you falsely accuse me of, but how does Satan in our flesh call for tornados especially when we don't merit it? Jesus didn't merit the suffering he endured, neither did Joseph in the O.T. and neither did Job.

I did not mean to accuse you of anything Tony, spare me the drama...  I said it was baiting of sorts... which I didnt intend on being an accusation, I was more stating that I didnt want to go back & forth sarcastically.

MEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL [WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped]...

CHRIST was TEMPTED... by the LUST which proceeded from the FLESH that He was born into... not by some fallitious "Hell master"...  :laughing7:  Which advised Him negatively in the same way ALL men are advised, from WITHIN...

When did "satan" ever tempt you Tony?  We all fall to the FLESH, not to some fictional phony with a pitchfork...  :grin:

TORNADOES are a matter of NATURE, which is become ADVERSE to men because of their NATURAL Disobedience to the Creator...

ADAM was given jurisdiction [dominion] over the EARTH, ...when He FELL into disobedience which was wrought by His FLESH... he gave over that jursidiction to ADVERSITY... so NOW man does NOT have dominion over all the Earth... Go confront a GRIZZLY BEAR or a RATTLESNAKE bro... and you shall find out first hand!

Your and my flesh do not cause NATURAL disasters, they are become instruments of the WRATH of GOD which comes AGAINST the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ...OF... men, who HOLD the TRUTH in unrighteousness, via that PRIDEFUL disobedience displayed by them all...

As far Job or Joseph, you (nor I) can not make this call, for you do not know their hearts... As far as JESUS is concerned, it was part of HIS MISSION to redeem, that ADVERSITY was put on His plate...  It is not a question of anyone being DESERVING or not... it is a question of the ORDINATION of the process and PURPOSE of GOD... and ALL THINGS occur according to how HE has PURPOSED them as HE WORKS ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... NO man is to question that PURPOSE, regardless of the OPINION that it is not DESERVED, as PAUL notes in Romans 9.

These are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

I bet Job and friends thought he was dying.

Your own "speculation" eh?  :laughing7:

What revelance has this statement Tony?  The Scripture does not indicate his body was COVERED (all though it could have been) -- SPECIFICALLY, it says that he had SORE BOILS from the sole of his foot unto his crown. 

It is an assumption that JOB was covered with boils... It just says (1) that he had them, and (2) they were sore, and (3) that they appeared on his body from head to toe...  :dontknow:  That most figure this means he was covered or that there was some great number of them, is NOT indicated.

Some more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD... which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!  :laugh:

But Satan is male gender and not an neuter gender. God sent Satan to go after Job. God didn't talk to Job's flesh and tell the satan in Job's flesh to attack all Job had.

This again is assumption Tony... There is no LINGUAL indication that "satan" is or ever was MALE... why would this be?  Where are ANGELS ever noted as having GENDER?  As I said, Hebrew and Greek do not employ pronouns...

If indeed "satan" as believed traditionally was a FALLEN "ANGEL" (there is no such thing)... and ANGELS in the WORD are noted as WITHOUT GENDER, for there is neither MALE nor FEMALE in the Heavenly realm as CHRIST indicated in: Matt 22:30... "but ARE, ...AS the ANGELS in Heaven"... neither MARRYING or GIVING in MARRIAGE... in the HEAVENLY realm, there is no GENDER necessary...

Then, even if you were correct, and "satan" IS a being, it still remains an IT, for there is no indication of gender in the SPIRITUAL realm...

Paul also noted in the SPIRITUAL there IS no SEPARATING parameters: Gal 3:28... there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE nor FEMALE, for ye are ALL - ONE, in CHRIST JESUS.

When GOD made ADAM [man] He made them both simultaneously... the WOMAN was IN the MAN... The only reason there is Male/female in this realm is for procreation... but in the end Woman and Man are 2 sides of the same sword brother T...

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

No Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... (Rom 1:18)... and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANG, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten...  :dontknow:

The answer doesn't elude me. I just want you to be forthright in answering me.  I want you to face your own theology.

And I -- you, ...Tony!  Is PETER ..."satan" Tony?  CHRIST ADDRESSED Peter as such!  And just before He named PETER as "satan", CHRIST noted that He would BUILD his CHURCH upon Peter's/satan's ministry!  Is that what you think Tony? Be forthright now, brother... and, face your own THEOLOGY!

You wish me to face my theology, something it appears, that you are unwilling to do yourself...  :sigh:

Furthermore I wouldn't get beat up in an alley because of God's wrath. God is not reckoning our offenses to us and is at peace with us. As Sarah wrote: Job's friends who wrongly spoke of God (God said so) said these things must have happened to Job for the sins in his life. They didn't. And neither would I get beat up for some previous sins in my life.

You cannot KNOW this Tony... face your own THEOLOGY!  YOU are unable to determine what was due JOB, ...you cant even determine what is DUE YOURSELF...

That our SINS are forgiven does not mean we shall not reap what we have sown WHILE in this life...  He doesn't reckon our trespasses against us, which reconciles us to Himself, yet SUFFERING persists for all...  It is because SUFFERING is part of that RECONCILIATION...

You cannot KNOW what GOD does in your circumstances Tony... Self evaluation in this, is self deception.  GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed... and You and I follow CHRIST in suffering in this world, for it is the process of PERFECTION...

I wasn't noting a prophecy about you,Please! :rolleye: 

I was trying to illustrate and you know this... You, as you often do are being obstinate... You REAP what you SEW bro... and that you cannot even remember what clothes you wore or what you had to eat 2 weeks ago, is evidence enough that you cannot retrace your life and find that there is nothing due you...

I have cancer in my body Tony... I don't remember DOING anything that generated this disease, yet it is there.  Are you able to give me a reason WHY it is there, threatening my life?  Do I deserve it Tony?  If so, ...WHY?  My sins are not RECKONED unto me any longer!  WHY is the CANCER there?

Face your theology bro... and tell my WHY, CANCER is threatening my life.  :dontknow:  Is it because you think, "satan" is poking me with "his" CANCER fork? Please! :rolleye:

For whatever reason, which I, myself am not able to determine, ...it is THERE and would NOT BE THERE, unless GOD has made the call that it be so... and the He is not required to give to me the reason... Neither is your theology REASONABLE concerning it...

ADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

So, according to you, rather than Satan going before God, somehow Job's flesh and the Sabeans' flesh went before God and God told the satan in their flesh to go after Job but don't kill Job?

ALL of our lives are OPEN before Him, even BEFORE we are born! Your precious "red guy" did not have to go before GOD to petition wrath against JOB... GOD knows all before it occurs... and it is WRITTEN that those men [sabeans] went against JOB... because it was IN THEIR NATURE to do so... And moreso, because GOD's WORD ...says they did...  :mshock:

GOD doesn't need to tell our flesh anything... the CARNAL MAN does by NATURE, that which YHVH has already DECREED to be... and that is to DISOBEY... no "halloween character" necessary...  :laughhand:

You actually really make me laugh bro...  :laughing7:  Gotta loveya!  :friendstu:

For the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan"... :rolleye:

For the last time (hopefully) Willie, I never said God is manipulated. God is the One who brought up Job before Satan. God told Satan that Job was righteous. Job did nothing to deserve his evil.

I agree, JOB ...DID... nothing to deserve evil... but was his heart any different than any other man? NO!  His HEART was Desparately Wicked...  As CHRIST taught that even TO THINK of LUST after a woman is the CONSUMATION of it...  You'd think you would know this, but obviously you don't...

JOB's HEART was not discussed, only his physical actions which "eschewed" [avoided] and did not manifest the deeds of evil...

He does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

So, I think you answered my question that Satan was in Job's flesh and Job sinned or did something to get God mad at him. So the satan in Job's flesh and the Sabeans flesh went after Job and somehow the flesh brought forth the fire from heaven and the wind and the thievery? Please, Willie, I don't think so. It doesn't work that way.

Tony

Tee-hee  :laughhand:  You are stuck in CARNAL observations bro... and far be it from me to wish that should change... Go with whatcha think...  Whatever works forya...

You have amply displayed that I am found talking to the wind...  :sigh:

You are welcome to embrace your fantasy... as for me... I have already done my time within this deceptive belief...  :wacko2:

You are welcome to have my share of it...  :laughing7:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

[peacemaker]

Job chapter two ...

... there was a time when the young men of the ruler came to present themselves before the judge, and the accuser also came with them to present himself before the judge.

Was this because the sons of Job had cursed the young men; the sons of the ruler?

The accuser must have been invited to the banquet? Wonder if it might have been at the invitation of the three sisters?

And the judge said to the accuser "from where do you come?" And the accuser answered the judge, "from wandering back and forth, in and on the earth" and "from walking all over it."

And the judge said to the accuser, "Have you considered (him) the manservant, Job - there is none like him in all the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that fears the ruler, and put aside his wicked ways?"

"He is still holding strong in his integrity (undiminished), although you incite me against him (because of your accusations), to disperse him without a cause."

And the accuser, answered the judge, and said, "Life for life, yes, all that a man has will he give for his life."

To risk one's life, for their children!

And the judge said to the accuser, "Behold, he is in your hands but keep watch over his life."

So, the accuser went out from the presence of the judge, and beat Job badly, from the sole of his foot to the top of his head ... Wounds suffered from trauma provide staph bacteria with an entry point into the human body, and a potential cause of skin boils.

"A shady scheme is to be punished for a mere accusation."

If Job would have cursed the ruler, and not humbled himself in, perhaps, sacrificing himself for his children (a fitting type of Christ), would the punishment have been more severe?

For surely, it was not for correction unto righteousness, nor for the omission or commission of an act.

Sounds very familiar  :JCThink:

peacemaker

[Sarah]

Job repents because he 'spoke of things I didn't understand' and 'things too wonderful for me to know.'

It isn't about finding what Job did to merit suffering. It is about recognizing the bigness of God, and the smallness of our reasoning when it comes to suffering. Even when I say that 'I suffered so I can know God', it is gratituitous. Why can't we accept that we don't have all of the answers? I believe we all become like Job's friends when we try to pin it on Job. Truly the only thing I see as far as reasoning goes for the suffering of Job is to test his loyalty to God. Which in my own reasoning seems mean....but doesn't that make me guilty of Job's sin? 'I spoke of things I didn't understand and things too wonderful for me to know.'

[Tony N]

Tony to willieH Part I

willieH: Hi Tony
Let me begin by saying that I hold you as my brother, and I mean no offenses to you.  But at the same time, I am not into playing games in discussion... use of sarcastic comments sour my taste to discuss... If I have misread your true intentions, I apologize.

IMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

You are the one being defensive, not me. And now you accuse me of wrong doing. Willie, I'm disappointed in you.

I'm sorry you are disappointed in my Tony... and I am hardly being defensive... I just dont wish to play games with questions that are not plain & simple... If you have been offended by that, I am sorry... And it is entirely possible that it is my descrepancy not yours, and that others might have observed your questions as "to the point and clear", I did not.  

Dear Willie, my question was very plain and very simple: If Satan is in our flesh, then how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get before God for God to have a discussion with their flesh? And how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get sent on a mission from God to destroy Job. How did the flesh bring forth the fire from heaven, the mighty wind to blow over the house the children were in, the robbing of all Job had?

How much simpler can I make it? The problem is this: The question above confronts your theology that Satan is in our flesh as being bad theology.

Satan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.

I am admittedly not an linguist, nor a scholar in Greek or Hebrew, however in my studies I have come upon commentaries made by scholars of both which include these observations:

Gender is not attached to this word "satan".   Matter of fact...  In Greek, it is my understanding that CONTEXT determines (but does not REQUIRE) the use of pronouns which are presented in English, they do NOT appear in the Greek as pronouns.

That is incorrect, Willie. They do appear in Greek all the time. Here is a list of the pronouns in Greek:
(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/pronoun1.gif)

And the pronouns in Greek have gender to go with the noun they refer to:

(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/autxx.gif)

Willie stated:

For instance the pronoun inferences in John 1:3 [him], John 1:4 [him], John 1:10-11  [he,him]  -- which refer to CHRIST named later in the context... are NOT in the text as pronouns, and are inserted notations of masculine gender because they refer to an entity which was masculine in human form noted later on in the CONTEXT.  However... the Greek Language does not define the word LOGOS as possesing a particular gender... which is the WORD of GOD, to which the pronouns "He and Him" are used in reference TO...

Look in any Greek text and you will see that gender is in fact attached to the word Satan. He is always masculine gender.
Actually the Greek does in fact define the word LOGOS as possessing a particular gender. LOGOS is masculine as well.

Furthermore, the word "satan" as used in the NT, is DIRECT reference to the HEBREW Word "satan" (not a "Greek word, originating in the Greek language) which has no gender... it is an adjective, not a noun.

Tony's reply: Interesting. I don't know where you are getting your information but in my "Analytical Key to the Old Testament" for Job 1:6 Satan is noun, masculine, singular as he also in in 1:7,8,9,12; 2:1,2,3,4 etc. etc. and is not an adjective.

So, not meaning to be cryptic or baiting as you falsely accuse me of, but how does Satan in our flesh call for tornados especially when we don't merit it? Jesus didn't merit the suffering he endured, neither did Joseph in the O.T. and neither did Job.

I did not mean to accuse you of anything Tony, spare me the drama...  I said it was baiting of sorts... which I didnt intend on being an accusation, I was more stating that I didnt want to go back & forth sarcastically.

Accusing me of being cryptic and baiting surely is an accusation. Are you going to redefine your terms as you go along like Bill Clinton did with "it"?

MEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped].

Are you sure it was the flesh of Christ that prompted Him to turn the loaves into bread? By the way, that is not much of a feat to turn loaves into bread since the loaves already are bread. My bible tells me it was Satan, not His flesh who tempted Jesus to turn the stone
Mat 4:3 "And, approaching, the trier said to Him, "If you are God's Son, say that these stones may be becoming cakes of bread."

The trier was not there and then the trier approached Him. Now then if the trier was already in Christ's flesh then how was it not with Him and then was with Him? If your scenario is true then words have no meaning.

CHRIST was TEMPTED... by the LUST which proceeded from the FLESH that He was born into... not by some fallitious "Hell master".  Which advised Him negatively in the same way ALL men are advised, from WITHIN...

Christ was tried. Mat 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the spirit to be tried by the Adversary." It does not say that Jesus was led into the wilderness by the spirit to be tried by the FLESH. I like God's version better. It makes more sense.

Willie wrote: When did "satan" ever tempt you Tony?  We all fall to the FLESH, not to some fictional phony with a pitchfork.

Tony's reply: I don't believe in a fictional phony with a pitchfork either. That is a straw man you prop up as if I believe that. He doesn't have horns, is not red, does not have a pitchfork, and does not have cloven hooves but probably looks like a really nice handsome manlike creation of God.

Willie wrote: TORNADOES are a matter of NATURE, which is become ADVERSE to men because of their NATURAL Disobedience to the Creator...

So, then, the fire from heaven did not come from God but from Job's flesh? It came because of Job being adverse to his Creator? Funny, just the opposite is the case in Job. He is a type of Christ. He was perfect and righteous and not deserving of what came upon him just like Christ. I'm sure you believe then that Christ did something to deserve being crucified. Some secret sin maybe? Something in His flesh caused Him to be crucified? Some sort of adversary in His flesh?

ADAM was given jurisdiction [dominion] over the EARTH, ...when He FELL into disobedience which was wrought by His FLESH... he gave over that jursidiction to ADVERSITY... so NOW man does NOT have dominion over all the Earth... Go confront a GRIZZLY BEAR or a RATTLESNAKE bro... and you shall find out first hand!

Nothing a good .44 can't handle.

Your and my flesh do not cause NATURAL disasters, they are become instruments of the WRATH of GOD which comes AGAINST the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ...OF... men, who HOLD the TRUTH in unrighteousness, via that PRIDEFUL disobedience displayed by them all...

That is not the case in the book of Job. Let us hear from God's own mouth:
Job 1:1 There was a man in the country of Uz. Job was his name. And this man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.

Job 1:8 So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.

Job 2:3 So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart against my servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil. And he still is holding fast to his integrity,

As far Job or Joseph, you (nor I) can not make this call, for you do not know their hearts... As far as JESUS is concerned, it was part of HIS MISSION to redeem, that ADVERSITY was put on His plate...  It is not a question of anyone being DESERVING or not... it is a question of the ORDINATION of the process and PURPOSE of GOD... and ALL THINGS occur according to how HE has PURPOSED them as HE WORKS ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... NO man is to question that PURPOSE, regardless of the OPINION that it is not DESERVED, as PAUL notes in Romans 9.

So now you are reversing your stance? You believed Satan is in the flesh but that the things which happened to Job and Joseph were just the natural outcome of man's adversity to God? So now you are stating that all the horror Job endured came as a result of humanity being adverse to God? Willie, you seem to be all over the map on this one.

These are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

I bet Job and friends thought he was dying.

Your own "speculation" eh?

No more speculation than your speculating Satan is in our flesh.

What revelance has this statement Tony?  The Scripture does not indicate his body was COVERED (all though it could have been) -- SPECIFICALLY, it says that he had SORE BOILS from the sole of his foot unto his crown.  

It is an assumption that JOB was covered with boils... It just says (1) that he had them, and (2) they were sore, and (3) that they appeared on his body from head to toe. That most figure this means he was covered or that there was some great number of them, is NOT indicated.

If I were covered from my foot to the top of my head with evil boils, you can best bet the boils were covering me from head to toe. The revelance to my question is nill. The real questions that should be asked: Was Satan in Job's flesh causing the boils? as you surmise? Did Job's flesh go before God and did God talk to Job's flesh and tell Job's flesh to smite himself with boils?

Some more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD. which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!

But Satan is male gender and not an neuter gender. God sent Satan to go after Job. God didn't talk to Job's flesh and tell the satan in Job's flesh to attack all Job had.

This again is assumption Tony... There is no LINGUAL indication that "satan" is or ever was MALE... why would this be?  Where are ANGELS ever noted as having GENDER?  As I said, Hebrew and Greek do not employ pronouns...

Of course they employ pronouns. "Messenger" or "angel" in the New Testament Greek is always masculine. I never said "male" but "masculine" gender. Angels or messengers in the O.T. were often said to be men.

Gen 19:1  And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

Gen 19:5  And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

Gen 19:8  Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Gen 19:10  But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. Gen 19:11  And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

If indeed "satan" as believed traditionally was a FALLEN "ANGEL" (there is no such thing)... and ANGELS in the WORD are noted as WITHOUT GENDER, for there is neither MALE nor FEMALE in the Heavenly realm as CHRIST indicated in: Matt 22:30. "but ARE, ...AS the ANGELS in Heaven"... neither MARRYING or GIVING in MARRIAGE... in the HEAVENLY realm, there is no GENDER necessary...

Then, even if you were correct, and "satan" IS a being, it still remains an IT, for there is no indication of gender in the SPIRITUAL realm...

Satan is masculine gender in Hebrew and Greek and is not an "it" or neuter gender.
The Bible does not say the angels are neither male nor female as you wrongly suppose but says:

Mar 12:25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
The angels just do not marry. It does not say they are neither male nor female.

Paul also noted in the SPIRITUAL there IS no SEPARATING parameters: Gal 3:28. there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE nor FEMALE, for ye are ALL - ONE, in CHRIST JESUS.

That is the "in Christ" relationship. In the Lord relationship Paul stated in Colossians 3:18-4:1 that there are slaves and free, wives and husbands (male and female obviously) and wrote about Jews and Greeks whereas "in Christ" there is no Jew nor Greek, male, female, slave etc.

When GOD made ADAM [man] He made them both simultaneously... the WOMAN was IN the MAN... The only reason there is Male/female in this realm is for procreation... but in the end Woman and Man are 2 sides of the same sword brother T...

And what does God making Adam a hermaphrodite have to do with your mistaken belief that Satan is dwelling in our flesh?

(continued)

[Tony N]

Tony to willieH Part II

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

No Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. (Rom 1:18). and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANG, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten.

The answer doesn't elude me. I just want you to be forthright in answering me.  I want you to face your own theology.

And I -- you, ...Tony!  Is PETER ..."satan" Tony?  CHRIST ADDRESSED Peter as such!  And just before He named PETER as "satan", CHRIST noted that He would BUILD his CHURCH upon Peter's/satan's ministry!  Is that what you think Tony? Be forthright now, brother... and, face your own THEOLOGY!

Tony's reply:
Satan in the N.T. can either be an adversary or THE Adversary. Peter, at the time he was telling Christ not to go to the cross was adversarial to His goal. Christ was not implying that Peter was Satan in the flesh.
Christ did not say He would build His church on Peter's ministry but upon the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

You wish me to face my theology, something it appears, that you are unwilling to do yourself.

So you say. Face your own music Willie.

Furthermore I wouldn't get beat up in an alley because of God's wrath. God is not reckoning our offenses to us and is at peace with us. As Sarah wrote: Job's friends who wrongly spoke of God (God said so) said these things must have happened to Job for the sins in his life. They didn't. And neither would I get beat up for some previous sins in my life.

You cannot KNOW this Tony... face your own THEOLOGY!  YOU are unable to determine what was due JOB, ...you cant even determine what is DUE YOURSELF...

Of course I know it Willie. If I didn't know it I wouldn't have said it. And of course I am able to determine was was due Job. He did nothing to merit what he got. God told us Job was flawless and upright. the Bible tells me that God is not reckoning my offenses to me and is at peace with me. So why should He send a gang to beat me up for some sin in my flesh? He wouldn't. I know He wouldn't. I am facing my theology, you aren't.

That our SINS are forgiven does not mean we shall not reap what we have sown WHILE in this life...  He doesn't reckon our trespasses against us, which reconciles us to Himself, yet SUFFERING persists for all...  It is because SUFFERING is part of that RECONCILIATION...

Now you are moving the goal posts once again. Jesus sowed nothing and got murdered. Job did nothing to warrant his great losses. Joseph did nothing.

You cannot KNOW what GOD does in your circumstances Tony... Self evaluation in this, is self deception.  GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed... and You and I follow CHRIST in suffering in this world, for it is the process of PERFECTION...

God is at peace with the world. God is happy. God is not at this point in time reckoning our offenses to us. We don't have some diabolic "thing" in our flesh causing God to "get us."

I wasn't noting a prophecy about you,Please! :rolleye: 

I was trying to illustrate and you know this... You, as you often do are being obstinate... You REAP what you SEW bro... and that you cannot even remember what clothes you wore or what you had to eat 2 weeks ago, is evidence enough that you cannot retrace your life and find that there is nothing due you...

I have cancer in my body Tony... I don't remember DOING anything that generated this disease, yet it is there.  Are you able to give me a reason WHY it is there, threatening my life?  Do I deserve it Tony?  If so, ...WHY?  My sins are not RECKONED unto me any longer!  WHY is the CANCER there?

Face your theology bro... and tell my WHY, CANCER is threatening my life.  :dontknow:  Is it because you think, "satan" is poking me with "his" CANCER fork? Please!

For whatever reason, which I, myself am not able to determine, ...it is THERE and would NOT BE THERE, unless GOD has made the call that it be so... and the He is not required to give to me the reason... Neither is your theology REASONABLE concerning it...

Cancer fork? Another straw man argument meant to make me look stupid. The cancer surely is not there because Satan is in your flesh. It is not there because you did something to make God give you cancer. It is there because death was passed through into you due to what Adam did, not due to Satan in your flesh. Death has been operating in you your whole life and will do so till you finally die.

ADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

What does "unprotected" have to do with Satan being in our or Job's flesh? Did the Sabean's flesh go before God and God tell the Satan in their flesh: "Have you seen Job etc.?" No. God sent Satan on a mission and Satan got the Sabeans to go after Job. He didn't use a cancer fork to make them do it eather nor a fork in the road nor a forked tongue.

So, according to you, rather than Satan going before God, somehow Job's flesh and the Sabeans' flesh went before God and God told the satan in their flesh to go after Job but don't kill Job?

ALL of our lives are OPEN before Him, even BEFORE we are born! Your precious "red guy" did not have to go before GOD to petition wrath against JOB... GOD knows all before it occurs... and it is WRITTEN that those men [sabeans] went against JOB... because it was IN THEIR NATURE to do so... And moreso, because GOD's WORD ...says they did.

Tony's reply: Sorry but you keep misrepresenting my position. I never claimed Satan is a "red guy." You love making straw men arguments, don't you?
Sorry but those Sabeans never went against Job until God told Satan to go after Job. The Bible does not say they went after Job because it was in their nature to do so. You just made that up.
I suppose you believe it was just the nature of the fire of Elohim to strike righteous Job's belongings:

Job 1:16 This one was still speaking when another came and said, The fire of Elohim, it fell from the heavens, it consumed the flock and the lads, and it devoured them, yet I escaped, but I myself alone, to tell it to you." Of course, according to you, God didn't have anything to do with His fire just as (according to you) the Sabeans just had this thing in their flesh against Job. God didn't send Satan on a mission. Satan was already there, in their flesh all the time. God was just making that part up. The fire just slipped out of His control, kind of like a bad fart.

GOD doesn't need to tell our flesh anything... the CARNAL MAN does by NATURE, that which YHVH has already DECREED to be... and that is to DISOBEY... no "halloween character" necessary...  :laughhand:

You actually really make me laugh bro.  Gotta loveya!

The carnal man does not make God's fire fall upon him nor make a wind attack Job's house to kill his children.  Job did nothing disobedient to call forth all that came upon him. You make me cry.

For the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan".

For the last time (hopefully) Willie, I never said God is manipulated. God is the One who brought up Job before Satan. God told Satan that Job was righteous. Job did nothing to deserve his evil.

I agree, JOB ...DID... nothing to deserve evil... but was his heart any different than any other man? NO!  His HEART was Desparately Wicked...  As CHRIST taught that even TO THINK of LUST after a woman is the CONSUMATION of it...  You'd think you would know this, but obviously you don't...

The point of Job is that he was "a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil." These things did not come upon him due to lust in his heart. You'd think you know this, but obviously you don't.

JOB's HEART was not discussed, only his physical actions which "eschewed" [avoided] and did not manifest the deeds of evil...

Then why bring his heart up since it is not germain to the topic of Job?

He does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

Tony's reply:
Another straw man. I don't believe Satan is a "red guy with a forked tail." "Natural adversity" is not in view in Job's life to call forth what he got. It seems the only real mythical thing is you believing in some mythological thing called Satan in your flesh.

So, I think you answered my question that Satan was in Job's flesh and Job sinned or did something to get God mad at him. So the satan in Job's flesh and the Sabeans flesh went after Job and somehow the flesh brought forth the fire from heaven and the wind and the thievery? Please, Willie, I don't think so. It doesn't work that way.

Tony

Tee-hee  :laughhand:  You are stuck in CARNAL observations bro... and far be it from me to wish that should change... Go with whatcha think...  Whatever works forya...

You have amply displayed that I am found talking to the wind...  :sigh:

You are welcome to embrace your fantasy... as for me... I have already done my time within this deceptive belief...  :wacko2:

You are welcome to have my share of it...  :laughing7:

Now you accuse me of being carnal, and live in a fantasy world and my belief is deceptive. If I were a moderator of this board you'd have had your post deleted long ago and been warned about your attacks.

Willie, it is not spiritual for you to disbelieve what God has told us. It is not spiritual for you to tell me that Job did something to merit what he got. Your views on Satan being in your flesh are not spiritual but esoteric.

[CHB]

I think Job repented because he came to see how small he was compared to God.  God said "where were you when I did this or that"? If you can do this or that then "I will confess that you can save yourself". Job was exalted and God abased him. Job thought because of all the good things he had done that God was well pleased with him. Aren't we the same way? We try to please God and man by our works. This has been since the beginning of time. Adam and Eve tried to cover their nakedness by their own works. They covered themselves in fig leaves, now you know what a big puff of wind would do for that? Cain and Able offered sacrifices, cain offered the works of his own hands which honored Cain, Able's sacrifice honored God. Able's sacrifice was a shadow of Christ. The same with Nebchudnezzer, the pharisees. It is mostly about works and our attitude and intentions of them.

There is a little bit of Job in all of us. We all have at one time or another lost one of the things Job lost. A family member, possessions of some sort, our health, pride. It is all just a learning experience. Job had never experienced what it was like to loose everything. I think what hurt Job the most was loosing his pride. This is what he complained about the most. Job was no longer looked up to in the streets, nor by friends or family. God humbled Job by these experiences, the same way he humbles us sometimes.

I think the bottom line is all of these examples show that we need God.  Isn't that what the whole Bible is about from beginning to end, our need for God?

CHB

[Sarah]

The fire just slipped out of His control, kind of like a bad fart.

:laughing7:

[Molly]

Tony--

Thank you for that study on satan a few posts up.