this taken from my blog. I think i made some decent points, lol:
I've been asked various questions as of late but most of them boiling down to,
What if you're wrong and eternal torment is true?
There are various aspects in the answer to this, and I would be lying if I said this wasn't an uncomfortable question. But I think the first thing to say about that, is that I cannot base my beliefs on "what if's". By that same logic, just about anything could be true or untrue. For example one could say,
* What if God does not exist?
* What if Christianity isn't true, and Islam is?
* What if life is really a complex computer program, and humanity is unknowingly enslaved by octopus-like robots?
* What if there's tiny green aliens that live inside my body, where they have nightly disco parties?(that could explain my difficulties in sleeping, lol)
Questioning things, as I've said before, can be very healthy. And I wouldn't be where I am today had I not done that. But spending time living in constant fear of what I don't know and not making a conclusion simply because I cant PROVE anything, seems to be a ridiculous way to live life. It makes much more sense to me to base my beliefs off of the evidence I have been given...rather than that which I have not.
The next thing is, is that the perspective I hold now (that God loves all and will save all), has had a positive impact on my own life in numerous ways. One being that I feel closer to God and feel free to love him, without some ever passing fear that hes angry at me and is going to incinerate my loved ones. More over than that, I think if ones perspective is that,
God eventually gives up on most people and will torture them forever, if they don't accept the right beliefs
...then your attitude towards people will likely be as short-lived and conditional. No matter how much and how long you want to "save the masses from brimstone" it always wears on you to a point that you just sort of shrug your shoulders and fall back into a state of apathy, that can only be (momentarily) cured by a preacher's terror tactics. Hence most of Christian culture today seems surprisingly unconcerned by the overall destiny of mankind, that is supposedly marching their merry way into the devils human cauldron.
I know this firsthand, because such perspective is what brought about the breakdown in my own faith. But if your perspective is like mine, that,
God never gives up on people and loves them unconditionally no matter their beliefs
then your attitude towards fellow humanity will be of the same, ever-loving, persevering vein.
Now if eternal torment is true like orthodox Christianity says, which perspective is likely to "win" more souls to God? Which perspective on God would an unbeliever most likely want to serve and love? The one that is planning to damn you forever if you dont jump through all the religious hoops, or the one who loves you no matter what and wants to transform your life for the better? I would say the later, and that would probably explain the reason why I can talk to people about God and spirituality that before, would not be willing to hear me out. All too often, I hear other Christians say,
Well everyone on earth has heard about Christianity!!!! They have no excuse!
Yeah, they've most all heard the "turn and burn" self-righteous, judgmental, homo-phobic Christianity, that has committed tons of atrocities supposedly in the name of Christ. Very few people have really heard of Christ and the perspective that God loves everyone where they're at unconditionally. And that's the perspective that will draw more people to Him if anything.
Lastly, I really like what Bishop Carlton Pearson said in his book The Gospel of Inclusion, on this very matter,
I'd rather be wrong for overestimating the love of God, than underestimating it. I'd rather err on the goodness, greatness, and graciousness of God than the opposite.
As simple as this statement is, I couldn't agree more. It makes more sense in my mind to believe that God is much more compassionate and understanding than the kindest "Mother Theresa", than to believe he is more sadistic and merciless than the cruelest "Hitler". Ive thought about it several times, and I don't believe I could even go back to worshiping God from the perspective I once held. I have thought about it and examined it far too closely, for it to not make my stomach churn and make me feel depressed...hence what started this spiritual journey to begin with.
The god(yeah I'm not even going to capitalize it) of orthodox Christianity is one that wouldn't even be worth serving, if that were indeed his nature. As dangerous as it might be to say...I honestly would have no interest in worshiping a god so obsessed with his own cosmic ego, that he'd gamble the eternal destinies of mankind and torture billions of unfortunates for all eternity. I would have no interest in worshiping a god that allowed the world to be entrenched in sin and destruction, only to redeem a few undeserving souls...all in the name of so-called "justice". Such a god I could only fear and be terrified of. Such a god I could not love with all of my heart, soul and mind as the Bible commands. And I think if every Christian were deeply honest with themselves, they would come to a similar conclusion.
We have no real way of proving one way or the other, but I believe the Bible provides us with much evidence of Gods unfailing love...much of which I have been trying to share here. And I believe that is why God put me on this journey and has let my heart leap to the most astounding plateau of my faith I have yet experienced. I don't believe God would drop this in front of me only to raise false hopes and to coax me into some false sense of love for Him. Because He is not really cruel, and is far more loving and just than most give Him credit for. And when you put all of the Bible into transcendent, divine perception, I believe it is ever so clear and wonderful. That is the God I serve, that is the God I trust.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 15, 2009, 12:58:26 AM
What if you're wrong and eternal torment is true?
Then I'm doomed because I don't even live up to a fraction of the Biblical standards.
Quote* What if God does not exist?
:dontknow:
Quote* What if Christianity isn't true, and Islam is?
Quote* What if life is really a complex computer program, and humanity is unknowingly enslaved by octopus-like robots?
To much Matrix for you.
Quote* What if there's tiny green aliens that live inside my body, where they have nightly disco parties?(that could explain my difficulties in sleeping, lol)[/i]
I guess it are green leaves not aliens :laughing7:
Quotesimply because I cant PROVE anything, seems to be a ridiculous way to live life.
But that doesn't mean you can go for the bet with the best odds.
Then ET would be better bet because when you loose the ET bet you get UR for free. Not the other way around.
QuoteGod eventually gives up on most people and will torture them forever, if they don't accept the right beliefs
God doesn't give up. He's outsmarted by satan. That is what ETs teach.
QuoteHence most of Christian culture today seems surprisingly unconcerned by the overall destiny of mankind, that is supposedly marching their merry way into the devils human cauldron.
"Once saved is always saved." actually means "I'm saved that's enough saved."
QuoteNow if eternal torment is true like orthodox Christianity says, which perspective is likely to "win" more souls to God? Which perspective on God would an unbeliever most likely want to serve and love? The one that is planning to damn you forever if you dont jump through all the religious hoops, or the one who loves you no matter what and wants to transform your life for the better? I would say the later,
I would say neither or the first.
Try to convert an atheist with those arguments.
ET? I won't bow to a maniac. (if He existed)
UR? Great I'll just carry on and will see when I die. (if it's true)
QuoteWell everyone on earth has heard about Christianity!!!! They have no excuse!
You can't deny even the most hardcore atheist knows about the Bible.
QuoteYeah, they've most all heard the "turn and burn" self-righteous, judgmental, homo-phobic Christianity, that has committed tons of atrocities supposedly in the name of Christ. Very few people have really heard of Christ and the perspective that God loves everyone where they're at unconditionally. And that's the perspective that will draw more people to Him if anything.
"
Be fair and also add: And many know about the flood and Sodom.
Seems I'm in a extra sarcastic mood today :laughing7:
Now, you can never have too much of the Matrix! :icon_jokercolor:
Well said agent Martin Smith :laughing7:
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 15, 2009, 12:58:26 AM
* What if God does not exist?
* What if Christianity isn't true, and Islam is?
* What if life is really a complex computer program, and humanity is unknowingly enslaved by octopus-like robots?
* What if there's tiny green aliens that live inside my body, where they have nightly disco parties?(that could explain my difficulties in sleeping, lol)
This is truly one of the funniest things I have read in a while. It really put a smile on my face. :laughing7:
its not about "going with the best of odds" its about going with what I believe to be true based on the evidence given...I cant mentally commit myself to anything else
You cant force people to love God...a true conversion requires that you have a heart to follow him, not a fear that if you dont he'll eternally torture you...thats my point
I know God doesnt give up...my reason for bringing that up was simily to state the ET perception. Please read things more closely
I am being fair...most people reject Christianity because of the bad reputation many christians have made for it...not because they reject the life and teachings of Christ himself. People really need to seperate Christianity from Christ because I think its a spit in his face on many accounts
Ninja, you are right. The "what if you are wrong" question is really a question about your faith. They don't yet have faith in the truth about the end result, to them it is debatable and therefore that question is designed to test your faith by fear. But when God gives you faith in the truth that isn't shakable, the question becomes absurd. It's like asking Paul "what if you are wrong about Jesus?" How do you answer a question that assumes a possibility that the truth isn't true?
It's like if someone from the 12th century asks someone from the 21st century: What if you are wrong that the earth is a sphere? How do you answer that? I'm NOT wrong that the earth is a sphere. :happygrin:
Quote from: Seth on June 15, 2009, 10:36:20 PM
It's like if someone from the 12th century asks someone from the 21st century: What if you are wrong that the earth is a sphere? How do you answer that? I'm NOT wrong that the earth is a sphere. :happygrin:
:thumbsup: Awesome!
Because of the way I came to it, though still true for any objective seeker, if Jesus is not the Savior of All then I've been deceived by the Bible.
And...I fell in love with God with genuine emotions, deep phileo, after I recognized that He wasn't The Supreme Perpetual Torturer and had spent time with the extent of His goodness, that He is genuinely good and I wasn't trying to futilely convince myself against the evidence.
I also was able to love people, where before, it was blocked. How can you keep loving those who God's knows are damned? It's too contradictory. Then too, how can you endure love for those you are unable not to love knowing they are damned if you don't realize God will perfect them if it takes a million years.
Now this love of God and mankind that was freed by the truth of the effectual redemption of all, each man in his own order, is no small and merely subjective thing. I believe it will make all the difference in the world, for God IS love. Without it we are kept penned, out of the finishing work that recreates us as Overcomers.
well put, reformer
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 15, 2009, 10:23:34 PM
its not about "going with the best of odds" its about going with what I believe to be true based on the evidence given...
Do you understand 100% of the evidence given?
If not doesn't it automaticly mean that any choice is based of best odds?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 09:44:41 PM
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 15, 2009, 10:23:34 PM
its not about "going with the best of odds" its about going with what I believe to be true based on the evidence given...
Do you understand 100% of the evidence given?
If not doesn't it automaticly mean that any choice is based of best odds?
No I do not...nor does anyone. My ultimate point being I can only make decisions off of what I see to be true...I cant make my decisions and beliefs off what I see to be false. Every human pretty much does this.
Bottom line im not going to force myself to "believe" and tell people that God will someday stop loving them and throw them in hell eternally...even though the possibility is he might not. No...im going to speak what I believe to be true and shown to me the best I can understand it...how would God expect me to do anything else?
If you are wrong, no one will be able to accuse you of loving God and His children out of a fear that you'll tortured for all eternity in real fire. Not true for others. Can you imagine having to defend your purported love for God as not being primarily motivated out of a fear of being sent to hell? What kind of love is that?
God alone knows the heart, and He is seeking those to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. If worship of God is based on a fear of going to hell, and hell/ET is false, then it is not a worship in Truth. Even if hell is real, your motivation for loving God is still not based on fear and therefore the existence of hell is irrelevant to whether you are worshiping Him in Spirit and Truth.
No pascal's wager needed.
Not to mention: if Hell is real, as in ET, is not life a joke? A joke that could only be thought of by the cruelest and most evil being? I think so.
If I am wrong then God will condemn me for believing too highly of his power to love.
So be it.
Oh but don't forget Tony B, God is both eternal and just, so sin apparently demands an eternal torture judgment for justice to be satisfied because "God cannot stand in the presence of sin." It's as if they think God created hell to protect his own purity. It's like they assume somehow sin is more threat to God's purity than God's purity is a threat to sin.
Do ETers consider the fact that when God says that he will not stand in the presence of sin, that SIN itself is to be destroyed BY God's purity?
I guess it goes back to the whole Lucifer theory about a good angel turned bad who defiled Heaven etc. It's a big twine ball of wrongness where all the false doctrines get tangled together. :thumbdown:
Quote from: Seth on June 18, 2009, 09:35:42 PM
"God cannot stand in the presence of sin."
Apperantly He found sub-contractors who can stand sin.
Revelation 14:10 .... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Quote from: Seth on June 18, 2009, 09:35:42 PM
Oh but don't forget Tony B, God is both eternal and just, so sin apparently demands an eternal torture judgment for justice to be satisfied because "God cannot stand in the presence of sin." It's as if they think God created hell to protect his own purity. It's like they assume somehow sin is more threat to God's purity than God's purity is a threat to sin.
Do ETers consider the fact that when God says that he will not stand in the presence of sin, that SIN itself is to be destroyed BY God's purity?
I guess it goes back to the whole Lucifer theory about a good angel turned bad who defiled Heaven etc. It's a big twine ball of wrongness where all the false doctrines get tangled together. :thumbdown:
You aren't talking to me are you? (Tony B looks like Tim B lol)
LOL, yes, I meant Tim B, sorry. BTW, I was being ever so slightly sarcastic, in agreement with what you said.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 18, 2009, 09:43:20 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 18, 2009, 09:35:42 PM
"God cannot stand in the presence of sin."
Apperantly He found sub-contractors who can stand sin.
Revelation 14:10 .... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
CLASSIC
Quote from: Seth on June 18, 2009, 09:35:42 PM
Oh but don't forget Tony B, God is both eternal and just, so sin apparently demands an eternal torture judgment for justice to be satisfied because "God cannot stand in the presence of sin." It's as if they think God created hell to protect his own purity. It's like they assume somehow sin is more threat to God's purity than God's purity is a threat to sin.
Do ETers consider the fact that when God says that he will not stand in the presence of sin, that SIN itself is to be destroyed BY God's purity?
I guess it goes back to the whole Lucifer theory about a good angel turned bad who defiled Heaven etc. It's a big twine ball of wrongness where all the false doctrines get tangled together. :thumbdown:
ETers (at least Arminian) don't consider how their view makes God very weak. God's creation completely fails (Adam sinned, but God didn't really want him to). So God sends Jesus to cover man's sins. But it doesn't really work, as most reject Jesus. So what's the only thing left that God could do? Burn everyone who doesn't believe. God was backed into a corner. We made him do it. And its not just burn everyone to get rid of them (a.k.a. annihilation). No, its an eternal burning, to make a point of it. But God really is loving.
How many contradictions can you fit into one theology?
Then we have the Calvinists, who get some things right, but then go VERY wrong due to the belief in ET. Essentially: God is in complete control. So God predestines us all to sin, and then sends His son to save a few. The rest He planned to eternally burn. But God really is loving and just and fair. This proves it.
Now the interesting part about Calvinists - you will run into many who believe that God is in complete control, all things happen according to His will, man has no free will. They even say God predestines man to sin. Then they come to this startling conclusion: man's sin is his own fault. God had nothing to do with that. Huh? Can you say doublethink?
Forget the theology, lets at least try to be logical.
But they explain the "illogical" away as its "God's mystery" - we can't understand how God thinks... etc. Therefore it must be good to burn people eternally for something they had no chance of not doing (ie. sinning).
That's why I love UR - it is both 100% logical and 100% scriptural.
Peace.
Quote from: Seth on June 18, 2009, 09:48:53 PM
LOL, yes, I meant Tim B, sorry. BTW, I was being ever so slightly sarcastic, in agreement with what you said.
lol No worries man!
On note of what you said, it made me think of this: is not sin, in comparison to God, as the creator of the beings that sin (and perhaps sin itself), infinitely smaller than God and His being of perfect, infinite, Love? Sin cannot honestly be suggested to hold any sort of hold on God whatsoever. God allowed it/brought it into being, and He can rid the world of it as He sees fit. Just as the world's inhabitants count as nothing against God (Daniel 4:35), so does the sins of this world count as nothing against God nor His ultimate will (the salvation of ALL men).
I think everyone should send me money so that people can be kept from going to hell.
Paul, that's exactly what the Roman Catholics would do during the middle ages.
That money helped build the Vatican.
Those indulgences were, in part, what led to the protestant reformation.
They still sell indulgences. Relics are hot. The whole thing is still going strong.
A not uncommon thing in mexico is you pay and pray and then receive a medal which, when the opportunity arrises, is given to the person with whom you want to "sin." It's a kind of invitation to already forgiven sin.
that was a good post reFORM er up there :boyheart:
I want to simplify something maybe .lol........... :laughing7:
we believe many things they fall into a catagory either Truth or a Lie , that simple , to me the simplicity of Christ being not decieved in our minds and swaying others in that deception
and we believe many things getting them all sorted out within our minds / spirit takes the HOLY SPIRIT to teach us what is right , just and true , holy even .
that is being pliable and willing to learn , sometimes it is through the experience and suffering loss , and knowing how very faithful the Lord is to us that we are quickened in the Spirit there is a new found strength there /Spirit we never have known before even in our weakness flesh/carnalness
that we can speak about pretty confidently to others , without feeling doubtful and wrong
in our thoughts towards God
UR having one of the boldest witneses i have ever come across in all the various religions
and distinctions of speaking for /about God in all my days here on the earth ...... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 19, 2009, 05:17:37 PM
UR having one of the boldest witneses i have ever come across in all the various religions
and distinctions of speaking for /about God in all my days here on the earth ...... :HeartThrob:
You know, UR is a pretty bold worldview/witness to people. It claims God REALLY IS all powerful AND loving! (Unlike Calvinism: God equals all powerful but cruel. Armeneism: God equals all loving, but NOT all powerful.)
Quote from: Tim B on June 20, 2009, 06:58:16 AM
Quote from: rosered on June 19, 2009, 05:17:37 PM
UR having one of the boldest witneses i have ever come across in all the various religions
and distinctions of speaking for /about God in all my days here on the earth ...... :HeartThrob:
You know, UR is a pretty bold worldview/witness to people. It claims God REALLY IS all powerful AND loving! (Unlike Calvinism: God equals all powerful but cruel. Armeneism: God equals all loving, but NOT all powerful.)
Hi Tim ,
I never thought of it that way before ..... :icon_flower:
Wow reformer I thought that they stopped that a long time ago... But then many Devout Catholics worship the Virgin of Guadalupe, and /or The Saint/Angel of death.....La Santa Muerte....
Quote from: preistsplace on June 23, 2009, 03:46:53 AM
Wow reformer I thought that they stopped that a long time ago... But then many Devout Catholics worship the Virgin of Guadalupe, and /or The Saint/Angel of death.....La Santa Muerte....
According to a book/article Catholicism is different all a over the world. It mixed Biblical teachings with local pagan stuff to get adapted/spread more quickly.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 23, 2009, 08:52:55 AM
Quote from: preistsplace on June 23, 2009, 03:46:53 AM
Wow reformer I thought that they stopped that a long time ago... But then many Devout Catholics worship the Virgin of Guadalupe, and /or The Saint/Angel of death.....La Santa Muerte....
According to a book/article Catholicism is different all a over the world. It mixed Biblical teachings with local pagan stuff to get adapted/spread more quickly.
WW and preistplace, that is the idol worrship warned of in the Word of God eh? Act 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to
idolatry.
Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too
superstitious. Strong's G1174 - deisidaimōn 1) in a good sense
a) reverencing god or the gods, pious, religious
2) in a bad sense
a) superstitious
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and
beheld your devotions, I found an
altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore
ye ignorantly worship,
him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,
dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Acts 17 this is a good chapter on that stuff to help us discern :thumbsup:
Quote from: legoman on June 16, 2009, 05:45:34 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 15, 2009, 10:36:20 PM
It's like if someone from the 12th century asks someone from the 21st century: What if you are wrong that the earth is a sphere? How do you answer that? I'm NOT wrong that the earth is a sphere. :happygrin:
:thumbsup: Awesome!
If you are wrong about the earth being a sphere, there is no consequence except for maybe falling off the edge. And even if you fall off and die you will still end up in heaven. Yaaaaaay!
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 04:36:16 AM
Quote from: legoman on June 16, 2009, 05:45:34 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 15, 2009, 10:36:20 PM
It's like if someone from the 12th century asks someone from the 21st century: What if you are wrong that the earth is a sphere? How do you answer that? I'm NOT wrong that the earth is a sphere. :happygrin:
:thumbsup: Awesome!
If you are wrong about the earth being a sphere, there is no consequence except for maybe falling off the edge. And even if you fall off and die you will still end up in heaven. Yaaaaaay!
Now you're getting it Mark. You are seeing the outcome of what Jesus did. Yahoooooo!
cp
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 23, 2009, 08:52:55 AM
Quote from: preistsplace on June 23, 2009, 03:46:53 AM
Wow reformer I thought that they stopped that a long time ago... But then many Devout Catholics worship the Virgin of Guadalupe, and /or The Saint/Angel of death.....La Santa Muerte....
According to a book/article Catholicism is different all a over the world. It mixed Biblical teachings with local pagan stuff to get adapted/spread more quickly.
Hmm... no wonder the Catholics borrowed Hell from the pagans. Grr...! (Or, at least, heavily adopted it into their theology from whatever Christians had borrowed it prior.)
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 15, 2009, 12:58:26 AM
The god(yeah I'm not even going to capitalize it) of orthodox Christianity is one that wouldn't even be worth serving, if that were indeed his nature. As dangerous as it might be to say...I honestly would have no interest in worshiping a god so obsessed with his own cosmic ego, that he'd gamble the eternal destinies of mankind and torture billions of unfortunates for all eternity. I would have no interest in worshiping a god that allowed the world to be entrenched in sin and destruction, only to redeem a few undeserving souls...all in the name of so-called "justice". Such a god I could only fear and be terrified of. Such a god I could not love with all of my heart, soul and mind as the Bible commands. And I think if every Christian were deeply honest with themselves, they would come to a similar conclusion.
We have no real way of proving one way or the other, but I believe the Bible provides us with much evidence of Gods unfailing love...much of which I have been trying to share here. And I believe that is why God put me on this journey and has let my heart leap to the most astounding plateau of my faith I have yet experienced. I don't believe God would drop this in front of me only to raise false hopes and to coax me into some false sense of love for Him. Because He is not really cruel, and is far more loving and just than most give Him credit for. And when you put all of the Bible into transcendent, divine perception, I believe it is ever so clear and wonderful. That is the God I serve, that is the God I trust.
Well said Ninja,
I came from a hard line funda
MENTAList Baptist background and for the majority of my life. I was one of those Hellfire and brimstone, "turn-or-burn" Bible thumping holier-than-thou Pharisee's that would get irate at someone for disagreeing with me on theology(in the love of Christ of course). I came to the place in my faith when an avowed atheist I was working with asked me, "how could I ever expect him to love and accept a god who is sadistic, evil, and has a great affinity to fry humans for eternity... Hitler is a Boy Scout in comparison." Needless to say, I had never heard it phrased quite that way before and for the first time in my "religious career", I had no answers... nada... zilch... nothing. What I came away with was a new burning question within the very depths of my now wounded soul... how could I love and accept God???
What followed for me were many years of pain-inspired study and searching until I stumbled upon an interesting tidbit of historical fact: The early Church actually was UR believing and professed that the evangel (gospel) was that Jesus won the war against sin for not only those who believe but ALSO for those that do not in this life. God will someday be ALL in all and sovereignty means that God will triumph over ALL THINGS, even mankind's stupidity. WOW !!!
I have come to love and accept my Heavenly Father because He really is love, to ALL especially those who believe. I can love Him now because I know without any doubts that He loves me and EVERYONE else He has ever created. He will not leave anyone behind, He will triumph even over death and Hades (hell) and be all in all.
Now THAT is Great News of good tidings and joy for ALL of mankind !!!
That is the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ !!! :thumbsup:
In Christ.