What about the 6 Million Jews- Killed by Hitler and the Nazis during the Holocaust of
World War II, None accepted Christ, how will they be Saved, I want them to be Saved
The Bible says "All Israel shall be Saved" but that by Itself, does NOT proove
every single Jewish person, Past,Present,Future, shall be Saved Ulitmately,
Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you Reconcile that :Peace2:
God must punish them, Anti-Semites like David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites, when they pass away, God must Punish them
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:58:17 PM
God must punish them, Anti-Semites like David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites, when they pass away, God must Punish them
Questions:
1. why must God punish them?
2. what type of punishment are you talking about?
3. what about you or I - must God punish us too?
Perhaps God does punish them (and us), but just not in the way you or I would imagine.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:57:13 PM
What about the 6 Million Jews- Killed by Hitler and the Nazis during the Holocaust of
World War II, None accepted Christ, how will they be Saved, I want them to be Saved
The Bible says "All Israel shall be Saved" but that by Itself, does NOT proove
every single Jewish person, Past,Present,Future, shall be Saved Ulitmately,
Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you Reconcile that :Peace2:
Many people think the lake of fire is the end for unbelievers. The last great event for all mankind happens after time or the eons end. That event is The Consummation.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:57:13 PM
Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you Reconcile that :Peace2:
What is the verse that says this?
Thanks...
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:58:17 PM
God must punish them, Anti-Semites like David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites, when they pass away, God must Punish them
Of course God must punish them in the lake of fire. How else could God's love reach them?
Quote from: legoman on December 03, 2012, 08:13:53 PM
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:57:13 PM
Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you Reconcile that :Peace2:
What is the verse that says this?
Thanks...
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(Rom 9:27-28)
This is the verse he is referring to.
But you have to keep reading :o)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
(Rom 11:26-36)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 03, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: legoman on December 03, 2012, 08:13:53 PM
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:57:13 PM
Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you Reconcile that :Peace2:
What is the verse that says this?
Thanks...
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(Rom 9:27-28)
This is the verse he is referring to.
But you have to keep reading :o)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
(Rom 11:26-36)
Ok thanks.
Yes, Romans 9 is not the completion... you are right you have to read on to Romans 11 where ultimately we see God binds all over to disobedience so He can have mercy on all, and all are then for God's glory.
First of all, you need to realise and accept this unavoidable fact: all those Jews (and other people the Nazi's didn't like), the Germans who oppressed them, the German civilians who died in the Dresden firebombings, all the millions Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot [and on and on] killed - all are mortal, and most of them died in their sins. They were fated to die anyway, one way or another...
Second, those who died unjustly in their sins, those who died unjustly in righteousness, those who died peacefully in their sleep - are all in the same boat. They all face judgment, reward and/or punishment, and take their place eventually in the Kingdom. Their manner of death is a minor matter.
Third, here at Tentmaker [and elsewhere] we rejoice because we KNOW that the blood of Jesus can and does cover all [ALL!] the sins of these many millions/billions. You, me, everyone.
In the end, all former enemies (in the here-and-now) will be reconciled to each other just as they will be reconciled to God. The first-century Greeks and Jews are an excellent example of this.
double post, my bad :doh:
Those who believe in eternal torment believe that the Jews killed by Hitler go to the same never ending hell that Hitler goes to. The way the teaching goes is because they didn't believe in Jesus in their lifetimes they will suffer ceaseless torture for ever. None of this is anywhere stated in the Bible; but, that doesn't seem to have much effect on their continuing to require "hellish" belief with a vengeance from those they'll accept as "Christian."
Quote from: reFORMer on December 04, 2012, 08:02:58 AM
Those who believe in eternal torment believe that the Jews killed by Hitler go to the same never ending hell that Hitler goes to. The way the teaching goes is because they didn't believe in Jesus in their lifetimes they will suffer ceaseless torture for ever. None of this is anywhere stated in the Bible; but, that doesn't seem to have much effect on their continuing to require "hellish" belief with a vengeance from those they'll accept as "Christian."
Unbelievable- but true. Deceived at such a fundamental level about the nature of God, it makes you wonder if they know Him at all.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:58:17 PM
God must punish them, Anti-Semites like David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites, when they pass away, God must Punish them
I am having similar questions about the end result of cruelty. The Nazi's were not just engaging in genocide, there were a lot of people who actually liked what they were doing to their victims. A lot of the Nazi high command used their station to indulge in sadistic brutality. Some delighted in making other people live in horror. How could a just god not send those evil, demonic bullies to a just endless torture filled with the same horrors they inflicted on others. How could I possibly believe in a god who would be so indifferent to evil as to allow that much pain and yet not punish those responsible?
I am kinda glomming onto this: the need to see them punished, is mine. I have a need for vengeance against those who would inflict pain and suffering on others. My mind cries out for justice, and if I could I would inflict as much pain and suffering on them as I could. My soul yells to the heavens: "God, punish the guilty for eternity!!!"
And my souls hears from Heaven: "Son, please, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Then I am forced to look at my life, and am forced to ask myself a question: "Is there anyone out there who has cause to ask God, that I spend the rest of eternity being punished with pain and torment for what I have done to them"?
Is there anyone out there of whom God asks: "Please forgive him, for he knows not what he does"?
Some ET'ers believe since Paul said "All Israel will be saved" that Jews are exempt from trusting in Christ and thus the prison victims do not meet the same fate as the prison victimizers. Do rationalize in their minds the seeming irony they have literally created an alternative to "NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.
The only way to get around the paradox is to admit that there is a chance after death to come to Christ.
My ET wife says, "But that wouldn't be fair!" I replied, "was it "fair" that God saves anyone. Nothing is fair, thank God for his tender mercies to us all."
Great post VB, :thumbsup:it came the second before I posted my response.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 04, 2012, 03:33:14 PM
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 03, 2012, 07:58:17 PM
God must punish them, Anti-Semites like David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites, when they pass away, God must Punish them
I am having similar questions about the end result of cruelty. The Nazi's were not just engaging in genocide, there were a lot of people who actually liked what they were doing to their victims. A lot of the Nazi high command used their station to indulge in sadistic brutality. Some delighted in making other people live in horror. How could a just god not send those evil, demonic bullies to a just endless torture filled with the same horrors they inflicted on others. How could I possibly believe in a god who would be so indifferent to evil as to allow that much pain and yet not punish those responsible?
I am kinda glomming onto this: the need to see them punished, is mine. I have a need for vengeance against those who would inflict pain and suffering on others. My mind cries out for justice, and if I could I would inflict as much pain and suffering on them as I could. My soul yells to the heavens: "God, punish the guilty for eternity!!!"
And my souls hears from Heaven: "Son, please, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Then I am forced to look at my life, and am forced to ask myself a question: "Is there anyone out there who has cause to ask God, that I spend the rest of eternity being punished with pain and torment for what I have done to them"?
Is there anyone out there of whom God asks: "Please forgive him, for he knows not what he does"?
Luke 23:34 Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
FORGIVE THEM, O MY FATHER (Alexander, 1875)
"Forgive them, O my Father,
They know not what they do."
The Savior spoke in anguish,
As sharp iron nails went through,
No word of anger spoke He
To them that shed His blood,
But prayer and tenderest pity
Large as the LOVE OF GOD.
For me was that compassion,
For me that tender care;
I need His wide forgiveness
As much as any there.
It was my pride and hardness
That hung Him on the tree;
Those cruel nails, O Savior,
Were driven in by me.
And often I have slighted
Thy gentle voice that said:
Forgive me too, Lord Jesus,
I knew not what I did.
O depth of sweet compassion!
O love divine and true!
Save Thou the many that slight Thee,
And know not what they do.
Vinebranch... thanks for adding a new and very meaningful word to my vocabulary. I have a rather large (not enormous, nor extensive, but large) reading vocabulary; but in all my reading, I never saw the word "glomming"... so of course I went to my trusty dictionary and learned the meaning of glom: beginning to understand; beginning to realize ... and decided it's perfect for
describing just how much joy I have being a forgiven sinner and yet really just beginning to understand, to realize the full impact of how that forgiveness was bought...
...hopefully..we all go on from glomming..to glimmering to gleaming[appear to be revealed suddenly]]
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 04, 2012, 03:38:57 PM
My ET wife says, "But that wouldn't be fair!" I replied, "was it "fair" that God saves anyone. Nothing is fair, thank God for his tender mercies to us all."
Bill Gothard pointed out that fairness is the unexpected enemy of justice.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 05, 2012, 03:10:04 AM
Bill Gothard pointed out that fairness is the unexpected enemy of justice.
I should think fairness is the ally of justice and the enemy of mercy.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 05, 2012, 03:53:20 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 05, 2012, 03:10:04 AM
Bill Gothard pointed out that fairness is the unexpected enemy of justice.
I should think fairness is the ally of justice and the enemy of mercy.
That's why it's unexpected, for too often what is just is not fair, and what it fair is not just.
Just fair or fairly just or sorta right maybe?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 05, 2012, 03:56:00 AM
That's why it's unexpected, for too often what is just is not fair, and what it fair is not just.
How can what is fair not be just? One of the first definitions in The World English dictionary of fair is "free from discrimination, dishonesty, etc; just; impartial ". When I looked up related words on Dictionary.com I found: " Related Words for : fair: clean, fairly, carnival, funfair, just". Sorry about the punctuation I needed to keep the original sentence intact to make the point.
I never knew the definition of "glom" before. The few times I've heard it, or used it, I thought it was something that "glop" did when it was thrown onto something. It didn't exactly adhere. It would drip and slide down. Like when you can't get your brother off your back. Push him away and he keeps coming back. He's "glomming onto you." I wonder what word would replace my misguided idea...
Fair is justice. That's why we need God's mercy and lovingkindness, and grace.
What is NOT fair, is that we have no idea what is fair from our limited perspective.
If you had seen Adolf Schicklegruber as a young, jewish, Billboard paperer, laughing and patriotic and coming out of a very troubled childhood, would you think it fair for someone to kill him?
How about if you knew he would become Adolph Hitler?(which he did)
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 05, 2012, 04:23:33 PM
If you had seen Adolf Schicklegruber as a young, jewish, Billboard paperer, laughing and patriotic and coming out of a very troubled childhood, would you think it fair for someone to kill him?
How about if you knew he would become Adolph Hitler?(which he did)
Hey ded, how's it going? That's actually a misconception. Adolph Hitler was never Adolph Schicklegruber. His father changed his last name in 1877; Adolph wasn't born until 1889. Hitler was the only he name he ever used. It doesn't change the theme of your post (which is valid), I thought you might want to know this.
Blessings
Quote from: reFORMer on December 05, 2012, 08:22:22 AM
I never knew the definition of "glom" before. The few times I've heard it, or used it, I thought it was something that "glop" did when it was thrown onto something. It didn't exactly adhere. It would drip and slide down. Like when you can't get your brother off your back. Push him away and he keeps coming back. He's "glomming onto you." I wonder what word would replace my misguided idea...
Glooping. :declare:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 05, 2012, 04:23:33 PM
Fair is justice.
Not so - stay tuned, I'm going to make a major post on this subject later, maybe a new thread.
OK, here it is, from the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts (now renamed, but don't recall the new name):
Justice and Mercy versus Fairness
Justice is based on the universal, unchangeable principles of God's Word.
Fairness is based on the variable customs of a society and the changing will of the majority.
Justice establishes guilt when God's standards are violated. Fairness tries to remove guilt by lowering God's standards.
Justice causes us to confess our failures and plead for mercy. Fairness causes us to justify our failures so that we do not think that we need mercy.
Justice and mercy are based on personal responsibility to a holy God, and they will produce revival in a nation.
Fairness is based on personal rights, and it will produce rebellion within a nation.
Justice is based on protecting eternal values.
Fairness is based on protecting temporal values.
Justice emphasizes personal responsibility.
Fairness emphasizes personal rights.
Justice is the expression of God's wisdom for our nation, and its application will lead to prosperity.
Fairness is the expression of human reasoning for a nation, and its application will lead to financial ruin.
Justice is impartial. It is objective and non-emotional.
Fairness is partial. It is subjective and based on arbitrary emotional consideration.
Justice results in the swift prosecution of criminals.
Fairness results in the slow presecution of criminals.
Justice limits the punishment of a criminal.
Fairness results in the inconsistent punishment of a criminal.
Justice establishes God's view of what is essential for a nation to be successful.
Fairness establishes man's view of what is essential for a nation to be successful.
Justice allows an employer to be generous to those who are in special need.
Fairness legislates against an employer's being generous to those in special need.
Justice holds the individual guilty for his offense.
Humanistic laws based on fairness hold society guilty for an individual's offense.
***********************************************************************
Note that God's Word often speaks of Justice and Mercy, but never Fairness. Also, consider how the USA has declined since the advent of "Fairness Laws."
Nice post L.S.
Unfortunately it never defines either Fair, or Justice anywhere. Could you ask the Institute for a definition? All the dictionaries I have consulted have used 'just' as part of the definitions, or at least as the example of Fair/Fairness. It could just be a linguistic thing. A lot of related words merge at some point, and split at others. I would love to see their definitions.
Don't you find that they might also be setting up some false dichotomies? Some of those examples are pretty black and white.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 05, 2012, 08:22:22 AM
I never knew the definition of "glom" before. The few times I've heard it, or used it, I thought it was something that "glop" did when it was thrown onto something. It didn't exactly adhere. It would drip and slide down. Like when you can't get your brother off your back. Push him away and he keeps coming back. He's "glomming onto you." I wonder what word would replace my misguided idea...
I think lomarah might be onto something here. Maybe we could use glop as a verb. Remember in Ghost Busters when Murray said "He slimed me", as in, he made slime adhere to me. Maybe we could say he glopped me, or he gunked me, or he crudded me. What do you think? We could add the contemporary usage of 'up' to it. He glopped me up, he crudded me up. Let's phone Websters!!!!!!
Quote from: VineBranch on December 06, 2012, 04:44:14 AM
Nice post L.S.
Unfortunately it never defines either Fair, or Justice anywhere. Could you ask the Institute for a definition? All the dictionaries I have consulted have used 'just' as part of the definitions, or at least as the example of Fair/Fairness. It could just be a linguistic thing. A lot of related words merge at some point, and split at others. I would love to see their definitions.
Don't you find that they might also be setting up some false dichotomies? Some of those examples are pretty black and white.
Fair questions, VB, so I went back to the IBYC literature, and found this:
"Justice is...the application of the principles of God's Word which are totally consistent with His holy character.
Mercy is...the provision which God has made, in that His Son has paid the full price for man's violation of His holy laws.
Fairness is...lowering God's standards to the level that can be achieved with our human will and ability.
Equity is...the application of justice to situations not covered by the law."
It also says, "The word 'fairness' is a good word with a right usage; but our society has distorted the true meaning of fairness and is effectively communicating false ideas through a trusted word."
There is much more, but I hope this bit helps.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 10, 2012, 04:14:10 AM
Fair questions, VB, so I went back to the IBYC literature, and found this:
"Justice is...the application of the principles of God's Word which are totally consistent with His holy character.
Mercy is...the provision which God has made, in that His Son has paid the full price for man's violation of His holy laws.
Fairness is...lowering God's standards to the level that can be achieved with our human will and ability.
Equity is...the application of justice to situations not covered by the law."
It also says, "The word 'fairness' is a good word with a right usage; but our society has distorted the true meaning of fairness and is effectively communicating false ideas through a trusted word."
There is much more, but I hope this bit helps.
Excellent, this is great. Thanks L.S. this helps a lot.
I also like that they mention the distortion of words; it is a constant struggle. I've spent years trying to convince the folk at work that adaptation and Darwian evolution are not the same thing and that merging them leads to headaches. The materialists have convinced a generation that all forms of adaptation prove the existence of interspecial evolution. It is a bit disheartening.
I would love your take on this: when Peter says that God no respecter of person (Acts 10: 34, 35), is he saying God is fair, or just?
I saw you apologizing for jumping in on someone else's interaction. I'll return the favor. :wink3: And of course LS can still answer.
Fly In The Ointment Alert! :laugh:
I'm not sure which word would be used to describe God "not a respecter of persons". I see people using that to mean that God doesn't treat one person different than another, everyone has "the same chances", etc. But IMO, looking at the context of the chapter, I'm one that believes it's describing how God saves both Jews and Gentiles through belief on Jesus ("don't call anything common or unclean"), the wall torn down. Approaching Him is no longer based on the Law, but grace through the blood.
OTOH, I personally believe it's obvious that God treats people and nations differently, and probably always will; some few rewards, some more; some many stripes, some few; faithful over little given more, unfaithful over what they have it's taken away; "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion"' Israel set aside for a season, Him dealing mostly now with the Gentiles (a veil remains to this very day 2 Cor. 3:24) "until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved"...
Still, I do believe Jesus truly did shed His blood for all, and in the end, all will share in the inheritance - Jew, Gentile, heathen. :2c:
Blessings.
Ditto Jabcat...
I also think that "no respecter of persons" can mean that money or rank or achievements or beauty or anything that we humans respect has no effect on God.
It's like 2 brothers playing in the sandbox. Dad comes home from work and one of them shouts Daddy! Look at me! I built a better castle than my brother! Of course, this has no effect on how Dad feels toward his sons.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 10, 2012, 05:18:10 AM
I would love your take on this: when Peter says that God no respecter of person (Acts 10: 34, 35), is he saying God is fair, or just?
Peter is saying that God is not like us, judging by personal appearance, wealth, connections, social status. These mean little to nothing to God, and we are all in the same situation with God in regard to salvation, grace, faith, and all the rest of it. You might by interested in a book titled
I Will Be With You Always, which records appearances of Jesus to various people in modern times. He appeared to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc, but the people consistently reported that He did not upbraid anyone, but they did feel a great outpouring of Love.
I think God is both just (and in the end) fair.
The evil Anti-Semites, if they do not get Punished(Face the Wrath of God) in this Life,
they must be Punished in the Afterlife, they must NOT get off Scott-Free, they must be Punished,
Jews did NOT choose to be Jewish, they don't like it either,
Even Hitler and the Nazis when they were Killing the 6 million Jews, they Realized the Jews DID NOT like, even hated being Jewish, even before Hitler came to Power in 1933, Did Hitler get off Scott Free when he died :declare:
IF...you do NOT FORGIVE those who tresspass against you.... YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE
YOUR SINS.......you...are in a very precarious position....... the eye is the lamp of the body..if your eyes
are good your whole body will be full of light.But IF your eyes are bad your whole body will be
Full of Darkness. If then, the light that is in you..is darkness..how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS
Quote from: sheila on December 12, 2012, 07:50:35 PM
IF...you do NOT FORGIVE those who tresspass against you.... YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE
YOUR SINS.......you...are in a very precarious position....... the eye is the lamp of the body..if your eyes
are good your whole body will be full of light.But IF your eyes are bad your whole body will be
Full of Darkness. If then, the light that is in you..is darkness..how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 12, 2012, 07:32:13 PM
The evil Anti-Semites, if they do not get Punished(Face the Wrath of God) in this Life,
they must be Punished in the Afterlife, they must NOT get off Scott-Free, they must be Punished,
Jews did NOT choose to be Jewish, they don't like it either,
Even Hitler and the Nazis when they were Killing the 6 million Jews, they Realized the Jews DID NOT like, even hated being Jewish, even before Hitler came to Power in 1933, Did Hitler get off Scott Free when he died :declare:
Why do you hold onto this offense? If you expect to be in God's good graces, you must let go and forgive. Anyway, most of those on both of sides of the Nazi vs Jew equation have passed away. Consider what is going on today, what the once-persecuted Jews are doing to the Palestinians. Ask yourself if that indicates persecution is just a "Jew" thing or if it is a more universal "human" thing. A lot of ethnic groups have suffered just as much as the Jews (the Armenians come to mind), and many have been persecuted to the extent that they were entirely exterminated (as the Rugians) and almost forgotten by history.
Follow the example of the Irish, who were persecuted cruelly by the English for 800 long years, yet, having gained their freedom at last, most of them have put aside their hatred. You should too.
Remember, God claims vengeance as His, so it's not yours. It's not good for you...
TAF - 2 clear up a couple of things. NOBODY gets off scot free. We are accountable.
I grew up in a jewish neighborhood and have known many, many jews. YOU are the only one I ever heard of that "hated" being Jewish. Do you think Jesus hated being Jewish or was ashamed of it? Are they the "chosen of God" because he hates them. Get a life and quit reading anti semitic stuff. :2c: