I'm struggling with this... :dontknow:
We go through life and we have ups and downs and we learn things and experience... 'LIFE'... :iagree:
Well...Not all of us. :dontknow:
Some die very young... :dontknow: Some don't even get the chance to 'live'. :sigh:
...What happens to them? Do they go straight to God...Do they get another chance at life? :dontknow:
It just seems (to me) that life is all about learning and to not have the opportunity to experience that learning (for some people)... doesn't seem right or fair. :dontknow:
Maybe they are the lucky ones... :banana: I don't know... :dontknow: Do they 'grow' and develop 'in heaven'??? :HeartThrob:
I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.
I just think of my own life...The things i've learned these last 20 yrs... Imagine if our lives had ended 20 yrs ago... We were different people then... I'm just struggling to see where all of this 'fits'. Don't we need 'life' to find out who we are?... To experience evil so we are humbled by it and so on as the bible says... How can one recognize heaven if one didn't live a little hell? :Pray:
Love to hear thoughts on this...
I mean I'm sure God thought this one through lol! I'm sure nobody misses out on anything... I just would like to understand 'how it works' a little more...
Hello Marc,
Here is as good a view and as beautiful a view of what happens to children who die young as anyone will get as far as the Love of God and the Bread of Life is concerned – no stones here nor great mystery. But please remember that human words and human concepts must be used to describe - to humans - that which is beyond the human earthly field of thought and vision. My life-long investigations tell me personally that there is more reason to believe a fuller account such as this than a human interpretation - and that is my human opinion of course. Such an account will not be too consumable by minds which are more drawn to the ultimate future destination of God's own children as being not that very far removed from their life on earth, but each to his own...
https://new-birth.net/media/cms_page_media/220/The%20Outlands%20of%20Heaven,%20The%20Life%20Beyond%20the%20Veil.pdf
I would recommend with these books though, that a person starts reading from the very beginning – the first volume, as the earlier preparation for what happens to babies and children who pass on is set in previous volumes ...
http://www.spiritwritings.com/BeyondVeil1.pdf
To understand, we must have faith and trust in God and in the Divine Love demonstrated through Jesus † the Christ of God. Peace.
Quote from: lastpost on July 29, 2018, 10:12:49 AM
Hello Marc,
Here is as good a view and as beautiful a view of what happens to children who die young as anyone will get as far as the Love of God and the Bread of Life is concerned – no stones here nor great mystery. But please remember that human words and human concepts must be used to describe - to humans - that which is beyond the human earthly field of thought and vision. My life-long investigations tell me personally that there is more reason to believe a fuller account such as this than a human interpretation - and that is my human opinion of course. Such an account will not be too consumable by minds which are more drawn to the ultimate future destination of God's own children as being not that very far removed from their life on earth, but each to his own...
https://new-birth.net/media/cms_page_media/220/The%20Outlands%20of%20Heaven,%20The%20Life%20Beyond%20the%20Veil.pdf
I would recommend with these books though, that a person starts reading from the very beginning – the first volume, as the earlier preparation for what happens to babies and children who pass on is set in previous volumes ...
http://www.spiritwritings.com/BeyondVeil1.pdf
To understand, we must have faith and trust in God and in the Divine Love demonstrated through Jesus † the Christ of God. Peace.
Hi thank you.
This isn't really my thing though.
I have a hard enough time accepting things God reveals to me on a personal level at the moment; nevermind what one man is claiming through what they percieve as mediumship.
I hope you understand.
:HeartThrob:
Amen! Just think of all the people, throughout time, who never heard about Jesus. How are they supposed to believe in Him before they die?
I have a theory, that because Jesus' first advent so perfectly fulfilled the ancient Hebrew/Old Testament holy days (of Lev. 23; Numbers 29) then His long second advent will fulfill the autumn ones. And looking at the spacing of those days, to me strongly suggests a timeline, and Day Of Atonement being 'Day' of Judgment.
Looking at the days - Trumpets/His return & the preceding apocalypse of man's world/empires; then 10 day's later is Day Of Atonement - and we know the millennium of Jesus will last 1000 years (represented, imho, by those 10 days, and if so, then the five days between Day Of Atonement and Tabernacles, represents 500 years between the resurrection of all those not yet saved, and 'Tavernacles' when God the Father says He will now "tabernacle with mankind upon Earth made new (in the universe made new) - Revelation 21.
To me that strongly suggests 'day' of Judgment will last somewhere around 500 years.
It's my belief we do not have inherent immortality.. But are resurrected. Sleeping, if you will until He awakens believers at His return and all the rest of humanity after the millennium, Rev20.
Bodiless 'souls'/Greek psyche floating around, to me seems very untidy and disorganized. I believe 1 Thess 4 refers to "asleep in Jesus".. I think of graves as beds with headstones.. :gsmile:
Jesus told the Pharisees unless they repented they would "die in their sins" which the Et gospel has run with and teach it means all hope is lost. But really, it does not say that! I think it simply means they will rise "still in their sins" at the 2nd resurrection. The one "after the thousand years". (I've even come to think of it as the DOA for the doa ('dead' on arrival/still in their sins, not yet born again).
:2c: :gsmile:
Hi Marie.
Great thoughts there and I agree with all of them.
It just seems strange that God will let someone live for a day and another person live for 100 years... I'm just wondering how that works itself out ...not that I doubt it won't. I just personally cannot see how that can be fair... We learn so much in our human lives and for that not to happen... Hmmm... I'm just trying to make some sense of that.
I love your posts, thank you. :HeartThrob:
We are all different. God knows our hearts. Perhaps some can learn what they need to know faster than others. Perhaps what some need to learn are learnt in simpler situations. What we need to learn are how to surrender to God, and how to love. I think those are the crux of our transformation. I know my daughter, who died at 11 days old, smiled at 2 or 3 days old, and held my finger when she ate. Perhaps she learned love extremely young. I don't have any real grip on this one at all. But, I don't feel I need to know that. I don't think there is any way I can know that.
So, I give it to God, and know when I get to Heaven, I will understand.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 29, 2018, 08:14:47 PM
We are all different. God knows our hearts. Perhaps some can learn what they need to know faster than others. Perhaps what some need to learn are learnt in simpler situations. What we need to learn are how to surrender to God, and how to love. I think those are the crux of our transformation. I know my daughter, who died at 11 days old, smiled at 2 or 3 days old, and held my finger when she ate. Perhaps she learned love extremely young. I don't have any real grip on this one at all. But, I don't feel I need to know that. I don't think there is any way I can know that.
So, I give it to God, and know when I get to Heaven, I will understand.
D.
I'm coming from a background in many ways of that life (ying/yang)/duality/futility are teachers during our 'earth time', given to us so we can appreciate eternity in higher realms. To not have that experience seems unfair to me in many ways...To me; experiencing life and all it has to offer is part of the whole point of being born.
Then again...You know what... The learning here never stops...Say someone lives until they are 80...90....even 100...there is still lots to learn isn't there? (From this earthly existence).
...In fact even if we lived till we were a 1000 there would still be lots to learn i've little doubt... So when is a 'good time' (in light of eternity) to 'move on'? ... Only God knows...
And as you perhaps rightly point out...Maybe some learn faster than others, or earn what they needed to learn sooner.
I just thought of something...I read a motivational book recently by a man in his 60's. (I forget the name of it (I downloaded it)).
I only read the first few pages and deleted it...(I've never read so much useless information in my life lol)...
This man in his 60s' (I think he mentioned he just turned 60 in the book actually) was talking about how to be happy and he said stuff like:
"Yeah just be happy...Do things that makes you happy...If you like walking go for walks...The only way you CAN'T be happy is if you have bad health...Then you'll never find real happiness because you won't be able to do very much..."
...And this man's 'motivational' book went on like this! In some parts it was even worse than this...But I can't remember it all (thank goodness).
I thought:
"WOW!!!! 60 years old and he 'thinks' he knows enough to write his own book ABOUT MOTIVATION!!! And INSPIRING others! And he doesn't have a clue....What the hell has he been doing for 60 years lol!"
So yeah...I could believe someone could learn more about life in a day than some people could in a 1000 years now that I really think about it...
Talking about this reminds me of what my grandfather said also before he died to my mother (I have shared this story elsewhere on tentmaker). Basically, on my grandads' deathbed he turned to my mother and said:
"I can see Jesus, he's laughing and playing with the little children in the garden".
Then he turned to my mum looking serious and said:
"You do believe me don't you!?"
I don't know how it all works...That's why I joined this website! My grandad seeing Jesus is what brought me here. I was having a good time just worshipping God as 'love' before he dropped that bombshell on me lol. Now i'm staring at concordants and literal new testments and ... Listening to a really great audio sermon by Gary Amirault earlier titled 'God is love'. ... Amazing!
Lot's of love to you Dandelion.
:HeartThrob:
There are some things we yearn to know and learn....but, many of them might be things we will not learn while we are here.
Many are not meant for us to know here, I believe. It is for our own good, I trust.
We journey together, all of us, hopefully, to seek as much truth as we can collect and grasp, down here.
I think, when we get to heaven, our learning will be an ocean, compared to the thimbleful we learn here.
My :2c:
D.
Paul mentions "While I was even in my mother's womb."
David mentions that in the Psalms.
John the Baptist was aware he was next to Christ when his mother met Jesus mother.
Before the world began I knew you.
I.M.O the varying ages that things happen to people is so that no one can make any claim because of their age or actions, or personal wisdom of any kind - so that ALL the glory and position for All is due to the completeness of the work of Christ- ergo NOT by works so that No one can boast.
Romans 9;11 " For even before they were born, or had done anything good or bad,
so that God's purpose might stand according to election, not because of works, but according to His call."
I.M.O babies will have less bad stuff to delete. AN actual blessing in disguise.
Quote from: Ross on July 30, 2018, 03:38:15 AM
Paul mentions "While I was even in my mother's womb."
David mentions that in the Psalms.
John the Baptist was aware he was next to Christ when his mother met Jesus mother.
Before the world began I knew you.
I.M.O the varying ages that things happen to people is so that no one can make any claim because of their age or actions, or personal wisdom of any kind - so that ALL the glory and position for All is due to the completeness of the work of Christ- ergo NOT by works so that No one can boast.
Romans 9;11 " For even before they were born, or had done anything good or bad,
so that God's purpose might stand according to election, not because of works, but according to His call."
I.M.O babies will have less bad stuff to delete. AN actual blessing in disguise.
Ross thank you for that input...Very interesting that was for me.
I agree fully.
I tend to entertain a lot of ideas while realizing I, and all of us really, have no way of knowing these things for certain here on earth. It is veiled for some reason.
One of the ideas I believe may be true is pre-existence.
According to Josephus, the Essenes (a Jewish sect) believed in the preexistence of souls, though I couldn't find the exact quote. Origen and a couple other early Church Fathers believed in preexistence.
From a UR website http://www.growthingod.org.uk/pre-existence.htm
"The teachings of universal reconciliation and pre-existence are linked. If you believe in eternal damnation, you cannot possibly believe in pre-existence as a spirit with God. If you believe in pre-existence, it is a strong argument for believing in universal reconciliation."
Acts 3:21 says: For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
The restoration of all things, or God becoming all-in-all is the basis of UR, but restoration implies something that previously existed will again exist.
The all-in-all passage in 1 Corinthians 15:
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."c Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Some scripture that hints at pre-existence:
Jeremiah 1:4-5 (ESV)
4 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
(Which can just refer to God's foreknowledge, I know. But it could also indicate preexistence.)
John 9:1-2
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
(How would he sin before birth to be born blind unless he pre-existed?)
Titus 1:2
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began
There's not a lot of scriptural support I know, but I don't think the bible is an exhaustive guide to all things, I think a lot is purposefully hidden. And interpretation is based on our pre conceived notions, hence so many read eternal hell in the Bible and we read universal reconciliation.
In my mind it would be similar to the story of the angels who once lived united with God but rebelled; we all were with God and eventually wanted to wander/or were subject to futility on Earth by God to learn lessons.
Romans 8: I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
So we pre-existed with God, and either chose to come to Earth or were subjected to this existence or a little of both, we are here on earth to learn and eventually will be reconciled to God to be all-in-all.
I also don't think reincarnation is totally unbiblical but I know most on here are against that belief. I am not at all saying I believe it to be true or universally true, or even that I want it to be true. But I think it's possible, if it's God's will. Not the Eastern religion concept of reincarnation until we "earn" our own salvation but in the sense of other opportunities to learn and experience if it is needed or God's will. Such passages about John the Baptist being Elijah point to the possibility of reincarnation, possibly in limited circumstances. John argues he isn't but Jesus says he is Elijah, elsewhere it's said it is in the "spirit and power" of Elijah but that's not really saying much because we are living souls that are made of spirit and matter. If we take the passages at face value without the doctrines of the church interfering with our interpretation I believe there's something going on other than just "he's similar to Elijah."
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecc 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
So we don't have a soul, we are a soul, that is made of spirit (the breath of life) from God and matter. Our body, the matter, or dust, returns to the ground (decomposes) and our spirit returns to God.
Like I said, I let my mind wonder things outside of orthodoxy, but I never say they are truth. If we are to believe in UR which is quite a heresy I feel ok being heretical in other thoughts as well BUT I don't stray from is the belief in God, creator of all, who is love, and Jesus, firstborn of all and firstfruits, the Word of God, given to us by God to reconcile all to Himself, and I try to remember to follow the highest commandment Jesus gave, which sums up all other commandments: to love God and to love our neighbors. And love is to be an active verb.
I do believe the Bible is the best tool we have to learning about God's interaction with humans, other than the Holy Spirit of course which is our direct access to God but is hard to decipher sometimes. I don't hold to inerrancy of scripture, as translation bias and error and human error are realities on Earth. I believe man's hand wrote the words inspired by God but not without their own personality, culture, and beliefs impacting the final product. I believe in many spiritual truths revealed in the Bible, and I read it daily so don't think I'm criticizing the Bible. I come from a catholic background, and they hold the popes to be inerrant as well, and I don't believe anything on this earth is or was without error except for Jesus. I think God uses imperfect vessels all the time for His purpose and that isn't a stumbling block for me at all.
Christians in my experience are a diverse group and if our "salvation" was based on believing all the right things on our own accord no one would make it.
I have Christian friends who differ on when to baptize (infant or adult or the invented "age of accountability" which is somewhere in between), the nature of the trinity, what the cross means, if the earth is young or old, if evolution is biblical, if drinking is allowed, if we should remove ourselves from the world, obviously believing in hell or not, if reincarnation is possible, if the devil is real or metaphorical, the list goes on.
So, we read the Bible, we pray, and we discuss.
While we are all unique on our journeys this line of thinking works for me, it may not work for others but I thought I would share.
My faith is dependent on not believing in orthodoxy or a set doctrine because to me it's limiting and following traditions of men, I try to live out my faith on a personal level, seeking and asking God to guide me. And trying to be humble in knowing that I don't know.
Thanks for sharing that. I really enjoyed reading it. There sure are a lot of mysteries about life and what comes after this life and before.
"What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him-- 1 Cor 2:9
QuoteActs 3:21 says: For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
The restoration of all things, or God becoming all-in-all is the basis of UR, but restoration implies something that previously existed will again exist.
First of all, I love everything you wrote it was a very interesting read.
To me (personally) the 'restoration' of 'all things' is 'creation' being 'restored' back to the way it was originally (In the garden). Or to put it another way 'things being put back to how they once were'. I didn't exist then...But Adam did...who was a type of the one to come. Although I wasn't there 'Adam' was 'tainted' and Adam sort of 'played my role'. I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well, but that is how I see the passages on 'restoration'. It's like 'one man was restored' and THAT counts for ALL mankind being restored.
Quote
John 9:1-2
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
(How would he sin before birth to be born blind unless he pre-existed?)
I don't see anywhere we the bible says that the blind man did sin.
Jesus said "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him".
QuoteIn my mind it would be similar to the story of the angels who once lived united with God but rebelled; we all were with God and eventually wanted to wander/or were subject to futility on Earth by God to learn lessons.
You say this...But then you say this...
QuoteRomans 8: I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
So you are saying that WE chose to rebel and WE chose to wander (and you say that God subjected creation to futility etc), but the bible says for sure that it wasn't creations choice but rather it was God's choice.
Quote
I have Christian friends who differ on when to baptize (infant or adult or the invented "age of accountability" which is somewhere in between), the nature of the trinity, what the cross means, if the earth is young or old, if evolution is biblical, if drinking is allowed, if we should remove ourselves from the world, obviously believing in hell or not, if reincarnation is possible, if the devil is real or metaphorical, the list goes on.
I agree. I've just finished watching Martin Zenders' new youtube video about the age of accountability, what a crazy doctrine...I think its good to just focus on what is written.
...See how a belief in hell led to an 'age of accountability' and other false doctrines... That's why I try to keep my own thoughts to a minimum on things.
Quote
So, we read the Bible, we pray, and we discuss.
Yes! I like that word 'discuss'. So many people are in a debate to prove themselves right but it's great to just 'discuss' the truth as best we know it and what is written.
QuoteMy faith is dependent on not believing in orthodoxy or a set doctrine because to me it's limiting and following traditions of men, I try to live out my faith on a personal level, seeking and asking God to guide me. And trying to be humble in knowing that I don't know.
Me too, thanks for your input.
This is a huge subject and a lot of my thoughts on these things could be classed as 'unbliblical'. Such as my belief in NDE's (due to my grandad's experience) and knowing inwardly when my other grandad had passed away etc, but I don't see these things really mentioned in scripture so it sort of 'leave it open' if you like. But...I try to view things now (more so than ever) in light of scripture...As time and time again it has been showing itself to be true to me.
Marc,
I like your reply but I don't have time to respond except to say in regard to the blind man sinning, Jesus didn't rebuke them and say "it's not possible for anyone to sin before birth you fools!" Haha. Instead he just says he nor his parents sinned. So I guess it's not clear either way but it gave me pause because it's such an odd question, it implies the people asking believe in preexistence but it is never clarified.
Also, the scripture says we are subjected to futility by God but it doesn't say God caused us to stray. Maybe we strayed first and then were subjected to Earthly existence to learn or for our path to be reconciled.
Or maybe we didn't stray but we were subjected to futility to learn and then eventually be reconciled.
Who knows, just speculating!
QuoteI like your reply but I don't have time to respond except to say in regard to the blind man sinning, Jesus didn't rebuke them and say "it's not possible for anyone to sin before birth you fools!" Haha. Instead he just says he nor his parents sinned. So I guess it's not clear either way but it gave me pause because it's such an odd question, it implies the people asking believe in preexistence but it is never clarified.
I've honestly never read that passage before the way you have presented it.
It's interesting and i understand where you are coming from with it now.
I just see it like this...
I'm walking down the street with my child and she points a local blind man out to me and says:
"Dad, how come that man was born blind? Did he do something bad to deserve it?"
...This is how i've always read that passage.
Maybe I have been reading it wrong?
I see where you are coming from now and I might have to look into this at some point in the GK etc and get to the bottom of this juicy morsel you have found lol!
QuoteAlso, the scripture says we are subjected to futility by God but it doesn't say God caused us to stray. Maybe we strayed first and then were subjected to Earthly existence to learn or for our path to be reconciled.
Or maybe we didn't stray but we were subjected to futility to learn and then eventually be reconciled.
Who knows, just speculating!
The thing about 'GOD' is that ... God is everything...and so I see 'us' as God...everything. So we are God experiencing ourselves if you like (as 'individuals') and...Well...we all work together and it's all very complicated and my brain is starting to hurt! Or...Maybe we are separate? It's all a great mystery...
Very interesting points! I'm the same as you...Just speculating!
I'll come back to this another day i've got a migraine so i'm not able to look at the screen for more than a few seconds lol.
Time to lye down I think! (Not willingly!) (hehe). Ouch!