Perhaps there has been a post on this, I did not go back and check it out.
Do men/woman have to be water baptised in the natural for salvation?
Is the waffer and a sip of grape juice or wine a must for communion goers or they are going to hell?
Must man continue these rituals? Are these just rituals for man and his mind set?
I believe them to be of no account at all. God is Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying.
It's all works which God will judge. (1Cor. 3:13-15)
Notice: that if Christ dwells in us we have no more works of our own. In other words we will realize that we don't have to do these works, but "it is God which worketh in you BOTH to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
I think this is what the second death is about, dying to self, or realizing we don't have to work for our salvation.
All of these works are of no use except to be burned away.
CHB
Well these 2 rituals were ordained by our Lord himself but both are symbols which are shadows of the real things both are there to remind ourselves of what they really mean.
Is it a matter of salvation?
No
Are we asked by the King to proceed with these rituals?
Yes
But can christians get through the salvation stuff which is the passage through the red sea and start walking to the promised land?
Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
good topic I had this question too.
I think that baptism can be achieved without water, but why did john baptize with water. :dontknow:
The book of acts shows men who are christians, but never heard of baptism or the holy ghost. I think this passage proves that one needs the holy ghost to be a christian who has power. :2c:
Act 19:3 and he said unto them, `To what, then, were ye baptized?' and they said, `To John's baptism.'
John was called to baptise with water.
Luke 3:16, John 1:26, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2010, 11:35:41 PM
Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
But you do realize that it is not a matter of "matter" but of energy? I mean when Jesus or Paul is talking about not living by the flesh, they mean not living by the power of the flesh.
The correct image is that of a sailboat versus a rowboat not between a steel boat and a wood boat.
It is not because being baptised is a physical experience that it becomes of the flesh, it's meaning is spiritual, the life force behind it is spiritual.
Because refusing the flesh for the spiritual in a physical versus non-physical way is called platonism.
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
Quote from: Quaesitor on August 13, 2010, 03:34:55 AM
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
Good find, and notice that they are alone, there is none there to show off to as is often claimed. I believe there is power in water for it is life, when the spirit combines with earthly water, the substance that man is made of it creates a fusion of power. Jesus walked upon water and also turned water into wine
and wine is represented as the holy ghost. I will pour out new wine.
The blind man needed Jesus to spit on him, water and also clay, to heal him completely. :2c:
Baptism is the process of dying to self, burying the old man to make way for the new. So Jesus turns the old man [water] into wine [born again by the spirit].
Jesus walks upon water conquering and ascending above earthly things[water] to make way for heavenly things[holy spirit]
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2010, 08:31:19 AM
Perhaps there has been a post on this, I did not go back and check it out.
Do men/woman have to be water baptised in the natural for salvation?
Is the waffer and a sip of grape juice or wine a must for communion goers or they are going to hell?
Must man continue these rituals? Are these just rituals for man and his mind set?
I believe them to be of no account at all. God is Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying.
If Jesus told us to do them ... can they really be of no account at all?
I don't know that they are necessary for salvation, but since Jesus gave us instruction on these matters, I think they are important to follow as much as we are able as joyful servants.
If Jesus asked us to do something my vote is let's do it.
:bgdance:
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.
While I think it's not needed for salvation it obviously ment a lot to Jesus.
He started His ministry with it and received the HS during baptism.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 07:54:25 PM
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.
He did baptize though, just that it was not his primary purpose, unlike john the baptist, who's mission was to prepare people for christ by water baptism.
KJVJoh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Maybe His who ministry was a huge baptism? Isn't receiving knowledge of devine things a sort of baptism???????
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water
John was to baptize with water, that was his ministry. If water baptism was so important, why didnt Jesus baptize anyone?
Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus more disciples doth make and baptize than John,
Joh 4:2 (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
Paul started baptizing and baptized some, but he quit, it was revealed to him that there is ONE BAPTISIM.
2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
4:2 is very clear :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 09:01:05 PM
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water
John was to baptize with water, that was his ministry. If water baptism was so important, why didnt Jesus baptize anyone?
Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus more disciples doth make and baptize than John,
Joh 4:2 (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
Paul started baptizing and baptized some, but he quit, it was revealed to him that there is ONE BAPTISIM.
2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
but what else Jesus did not do but his disciples did?
Why does johns disciples fast but yours do not?
They will fast after the bridegroom is gone. (something like that)
Also Peter baptized the eunuch, which someone quoted the verse in this thread. Peter was close to the lord and even given to be the rock of the church, whatever that means, I think it means leader or starter of the church, so you think he would tell him about baptism?
Also the command baptize them in the name of the son and the holy ghost, many commands like this.
2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 09:53:04 PM
2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I belive this, that one does not need baptism to be saved or even to receive the holy ghost, for the spirit is everywhere and one can receive the spirit in ones house. e.g the day of pentecost.
But I still believe that water baptisms helps to crixify old desires and for one to feel renewed. People who take par t immersed in water often feel clean and a big smile is upon their face as they rise.
Ofcourse baptism represents rebirth. You enter a water grave. Die. And get resurrected.
Not after 3 days like our Master but more like 3 seconds :winkgrin:
I think the important thing of baptism is not the baptism itself but a stage in a process.
An atheist that has read 2 chapter and thinks "Good stuff" does want to get baptized immediately.
I think it's learning process. And when you feel ready you take baptism. And it's the getting ready that's what really counts. Countless hows of study.
It's a crown on your study work.
At least that's it for me....
Hold your nose
:laughing7:
Someone named "SteppingStone" wrote at another sites:
Something I'm still looking into but it appears that the Baptism shifted from Water to Holy Ghost Fire in the book of Acts when the words of Christ were recalled..
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
At this point below they were still realizing that the Holy Ghost was being given prior to water baptism yet Peter was still commanding water baptism as well.
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
From this point fwd it appears that Peter may or may not have realized that Baptism shifted from Water to Holy Ghost Fire because he was recalling the words of Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
And here above Paul appears to be declaring that the power of God is in the cross, meaning death, burial, and resurrection is simply receiving the Holy Ghost. Otherwise why would he be trivializing water baptism and saying he doesn't teach it anymore?
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
The message is from natural things to Spiritual things. John prepared the way of the Lord with the baptism of water repentance but the one greater did come and He did verily Baptize with Holy Ghost Fire..
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
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Hebrews 6:1-2 lists the "principles of the doctrine of Christ." KJV
other versions call them:
"the elementary teachings about Christ" NIV
"the elementary teaching about the Christ" NASB
"the preschool fingerpainting exercises on Christ" The Message
"the basic teachings about Christ" NLT
"the elementary principles of Christ" NKJV
"the elementary stage in the teachings and doctrine of Christ" Amplified
These 6 basic or fundamental doctrines are listed as:
repentance from dead works
faith toward God
baptisms (plural)
laying on of hands
resurrection of the dead
eternal judgment
I've considered Hebrews 6 and it could possibly be that water baptism was only intended until the Holy Ghost came on Pentecost.
I also noted in my original post that it appears that it took them a while to recall this because they were still doing both water and Spirit baptisms.
It's almost as if the water baptism of John was still under the time period of, "The Law & The Prophets."
Then grace came on Pentecost..
AJS writes:
I do not believe that it is necessary for a believer in Christ to be water baptized at all.
..
There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism – yes... the early disciples did at the beginning baptize their converts in water,
...but I believe that God does NOT NOW count man's physical water baptism as essential at all.
Everything Jesus did was for mankind, thus by his own baptism everyone.... has been baptized into Christ...because he was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:29)
The whole human race died and was buried (baptized) by the Messiah's baptism.
Any water baptism done now by a believer, it is simply getting him wet.
Thus, we should be teaching - the complete end of physical water baptism.
-
Interesting, but I do not agree with the Hebrews 6 arguments, all others things listed there are not to be abandonned but are just supposed to be simple teachings which should have been known by now, baptisms(plural) are of those.
I still think there's nowhere in the Scriptures where we see we have to stop baptising in water.
These verses are all unclear ones not advocating the end of water baptism, reminds me of those saying that prophecies and tongues are extinct based on 1Cor 13.
Interesting read nevertheless, thanks AJ. :happygrin:
As the Bread and Cup are a reliving of everything He did in the redemption of our bodies and souls and THE WAY in which He's made known to us, according to Luke 24, water baptism has a similar purpose regarding our reclaimed, Christ-centered self esteem, because in water baptism what you're SUPPOSED TO BE reliving is Matthew 27:27-31 when a whole garrison ABSOLUTELY IMMERSED HIM in their spit. Shouldn't be a "we have to," but "we get to," when we understand, when the opportunity is right, and it's a potential for great intimacy with Him when it's prompted by both understanding the aforementioned and the leading of His Spirit on the timing.
Quote from: Green-Arrow on January 07, 2012, 11:09:44 PM
As the Bread and Cup are a reliving of everything He did in the redemption of our bodies and souls and THE WAY in which He's made known to us, according to Luke 24, water baptism has a similar purpose regarding our reclaimed, Christ-centered self esteem, because in water baptism what you're SUPPOSED TO BE reliving is Matthew 27:27-31 when a whole garrison ABSOLUTELY IMMERSED HIM in their spit. Shouldn't be a "we have to," but "we get to," when we understand, when the opportunity is right, and it's a potential for great intimacy with Him when it's prompted by both understanding the aforementioned and the leading of His Spirit on the timing.
Anyone facing real timidity about going fully forward with some aspect of the will of God for their lives that's right then in their face every single day should genuinely consider, besides receiving communion as often as possible, spending hours and hours in Matthew 27:27-31, really focusing on all that He substituted for us in what should have happened to us -- the just for the unjust in the words of the Apostle Peter -- and as a matter of faith pursue being water baptized with that new level of consciousness of Matthew 27:27-31: looking unto Him, as we're told in Hebrews, that as easily applies to this subject of water baptism. There's no reason to believe that water baptism has to be any more a one time event than being filled with His Spirit or receiving communion. There are examples of further dimensions of His Spirit that they entered into in Acts, from glory to glory, and it says regarding communion to do it often in Remembrance of Him. I personally believe that when done IN ACTUAL FAITH on Matthew 27:27-31 that whatever is our equivalent of spiritual opposition to our inheriting of what's before us HAS TO FALL BEFORE US in our baptism, the way the soldiers collapsed when they went to arrest Lord Jesus. Every single thing He did and does is for us, in our behalf, and to burst the dam in our lives that's held back all of His blessings so that they cannot be held back any longer. Water baptism done in faith UNQUESTIONABLY would be a New Testament way of forcing our own walls of Jericho to collapse!