Was Jesus God?

[micah7:9]

Hebrews 5:5 For unto the angels He has not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that You are mindful of him? or the son of man, that You visit him? 7 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honour, and did set him over the works of Your hands

Confused :dontknow: isn't that Heb. 2:5-7???

[micah7:9]

Hi jabcat,

I should have read your post first, you explained the whole thing in a few sentences.  :gimmefive: I agree.  :thumbsup:

CHB

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Jesus is the fulness of deity in bodily form.(Col 2:9)

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.(Col 1)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(Mt 28)

But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.(1 Cor 15)

The Father(aquifer) is the source and the Son is the manifestation(fountain).

He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, the image of the invisible God. Heb 1

The glory of God illuminates it and the Lamb is its Lamp.(Rev 21)

The terminologies of systematic theology is really just different ways of defining something seen through a glass darkly. Its an elusive truth.

For me Jesus cannot be co-equal with the Father.

  So you also are saying they are One and the same John ?     True worshippers worship  Him in Spirit & truth   the Father seeks such to Worship Him

Not sure what "one and the same" means. One yes, the same no- that's what I would say. But I dont claim to fully understand the relationship of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost. None of the standard theological definitions(Trinity, Modalist, Bi-nitarian, Biblical Untitarian) satisfies me.

I think all the effort devoted to defining the mystery of the Deity is mostly wasted once we reach the point where we are insistent about defining the fine details of things seen through a glass darkly.

Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.

But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.

I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.

My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.

The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.

For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL

[eaglesway]

http://1drv.ms/1yGLIXg

This is sort of how I see it in a diagram. Just sharing, not trying to teach a new Godhead theory as fact :o)

[GodIsLove]

Jesus is the fulness of deity in bodily form.(Col 2:9)

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.(Col 1)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(Mt 28)

But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.(1 Cor 15)

The Father(aquifer) is the source and the Son is the manifestation(fountain).

He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, the image of the invisible God. Heb 1

The glory of God illuminates it and the Lamb is its Lamp.(Rev 21)

The terminologies of systematic theology is really just different ways of defining something seen through a glass darkly. Its an elusive truth.

For me Jesus cannot be co-equal with the Father.

  So you also are saying they are One and the same John ?     True worshippers worship  Him in Spirit & truth   the Father seeks such to Worship Him

Not sure what "one and the same" means. One yes, the same no- that's what I would say. But I dont claim to fully understand the relationship of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost. None of the standard theological definitions(Trinity, Modalist, Bi-nitarian, Biblical Untitarian) satisfies me.

I think all the effort devoted to defining the mystery of the Deity is mostly wasted once we reach the point where we are insistent about defining the fine details of things seen through a glass darkly.

Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.

But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.

I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.

My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.

The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.

For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL

Good explanation. This makes sense to me and I agree that it's something we don't fully understand on this side of the veil.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yeah, me too....a son is a son. I don't think there is a problem with Him being the Son and not the Father. Being "one" doesn't mean they have to be the same person. Blessings....

[CHB]

In the introduction of Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians,Thess.,  Thim.Titus, Phil., James, Peter, John, and Rev.  All of these books refer to God and Jesus Christ. If there wasn't two different individuals why were they referred to as two? (1Cor.1:3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

CHB

[lastpost]

I simplify it this way: God the Pure Father cannot exist in imperfection as He cannot look upon iniquity, and so proceeding forth from Him came the Son who is responsible for the uplifting and salvation of the imperfect creation. I see this as Spirit and Soul in simple terms, although in spiritual reality the study of Spirit and Soul is no doubt an unending wonder.

The Holy Spirit is manifold in attributes to my mind, and cannot be limited to human words, not even those found in the Holy Book excepting that one does not know from whence it comes or to where it goes – it is Spirit, living Spirit, and living Spirit cannot be confined by man's limitations.

God is All in All and 'personality', as humans often regard personality, is not what I would attribute to the Absolute Being who is above any conception of man's mind – perfect Divine intelligence and perfect Divine love.

The Personal Jesus in a decaying physical body had to remove Himself so that the Universal Christ Spirit might come and be in the hearts of His followers for ever.  Thank you Master!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, yes He did....

[Dandelion]

Yes, it is true.....I grew up in a time and a place where believing in the Trinity was the 'norm' and the only acceptable explanation for who God was, in my world, of a conservative Roman Catholic.

However, it still makes sense.

Yes, when Christ was brought to earth, He may well have given up, so to speak, some of His attributes to be one with us. However, I do not believe that that is who is actually is.

If we look in the Bible, relationships are always pictures as 'equal' between those who love and are loved.


1 Corinthians 12New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Spiritual Gifts
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Unity and Diversity in the Body
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Love Is Indispensable
And yet I will show you the most excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


So, what I see from these passages are that we all have different gifts, but the same Spirit, and in Love, we are all united and equal.


I am going to apply this to the 3 persons of God. They have different assignments, if you will, but, in the spirit of love and unity, they are all equal.

In a love relationship, this is very important.  Neither one should be considered less or more, but rather, a mutual holding up of one another is crucial to the balance of love. Each is made important, by the other. Without this, an imbalanced relationship can ensue and then love itself is in danger, in this type of setting. The value of the other is given by the beloved.

And then we have these passages:

John 1:
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, "This is the one I spoke about when I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'") 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

To me, this establishes Jesus as God's beloved son.

Then, while on earth, Jesus tells us again about His relationship with the Father, and with the Spirit:
Jesus the Way to the Father

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15"If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Now, even though Jesus states here that the Father is greater than Him, I still have the distinct sense that there is a balance and an equality of mutual love between the 3 persons of our one God, and that we are the recipients of their great and powerful union and love for each other, as we are given the inheritance to join them, in love, by our faith and God's grace. It is the love, spoken about in 1 Corinthians 13, that gives each person of the trinity their role and their equality, because each values and supports the other. Just as we learn in the verses associated with the gifts of the Spirit, in 1 Corinthians 12.

Now, I hope you can all make some sense out of my ramblings. I am trying to show, I suppose, that love makes for the equality, and because of this great love between the 3 persons of one God, we are the benefactors of their relationship to each other, and are able to be saved and walk with the Lord, as their relationship with one another, pours out on us.  Their relationship is a model for us of love, of balance, of unity in the common good and goal of our salvation. Because of their unity and love, we can know God and we can be saved. Each valued by the other 2 of their unique and necessary roles, and of the great love between them. And, it is in that love, which trumps all else, that the equality dwells. Just as is described in 1 Corinthians 12.

Well, your comments are most welcome, as always.

D.

[Dandelion]

And, one more thing I might add, is that, we, ourselves, do not become Children of God, by our great skills or our gifts, but by God's great love for each of us, as we are, transformed by His grace and love, through faith in Him. And, we, as Universalist Christians, who believe all will one day come to God, must know that it is not by merit or accomplishments; not by works,[/u] but by faith and love that we will all be 'all in all', with our God, one day.

That same love that permeates the 3 persons of God, which gives glory and honor, due to their relationship, first and foremost.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

D.

I should add.....my 2 cents.      :2c:

[trettep]

There is no three persons of God.

There is only one God - The Father in Heaven who is both Holy and Spirit.

Jesus was the Word of God made flesh but the Word of God was made far before the body of Jesus was made.  In fact Jesus had to learn that He was the Word of God made flesh.  He had to come to the understanding that He was the Christ.

The confusion for most comes from the understanding of what a "spirit" is.  A spirit is the "being" part.  For example,

Take yourself - write down everything that makes you - you.  I'm not talking about your physical attributes.  I'm talking about your mental self.  Are you a caring person, sensitive person, are you hateful, are you joyful, etc..?

You see if you write down all these things about you then you will have written down what comprises your BEING or "Your Spirit".  Now God the Father is different.  His is known by His Love of ALL.  That Spirit is His.

So there is no separate person called the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is a direct reference to God the Father's Spirit which imparts to His Children just as a man impart his flesh and likeness to his children.  We can know God and the Godhead by the things that are made.

[jabcat]

as "IMO" please

[marie glen]

I think of the Holy Spirit as God's Presence.. That's how I've come to think of it.. :smile:

[marie glen]

Not sure what "one and the same" means. One yes, the same no- that's what I would say. But I dont claim to fully understand the relationship of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost. None of the standard theological definitions(Trinity, Modalist, Bi-nitarian, Biblical Untitarian) satisfies me.

I think all the effort devoted to defining the mystery of the Deity is mostly wasted once we reach the point where we are insistent about defining the fine details of things seen through a glass darkly.

Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.

But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.

I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.

My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.

The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.

For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL

:goodpost: that's pretty much how it strikes me too.. tho I never thought that about the Spirit and water! I like that.. makes sense to me. And in total agreement with your last sentence (about all things..) :icon_flower:

[Dandelion]

I personally think it is less important what we call God, the Father; Jesus, His only begotten Son; and the Holy Spirit, and more important how we see their relationship and the implications for our viewpoint
and how we see the connection between their love; their mission and their unity.

As I said, I come from a trinitarian background. Born and raised a Roman Catholic, went to Catholic School for 12 years, and remained a RC for 47 years, faithfully going to Church and volunteering at Church, every week of my life, without skipping a beat. My son attended a Lutheran College and after only a few weeks there, decided to become Lutheran. In a few months, so did I and soon after began studying to be a Deacon and then a rostered Lutheran teacher, in the church. I have had much training in theology in both the RC church and the Lutheran Church, and have taught in both churches, and studied theology and continue to do so, in other denominations, as well. Many trained ministers in various traditions are close friends and comrades in ministry with me.

So, in the traditions I am most familiar with, I am very much the standard regarding the trinity. In fact, I am probably much more liberal in my thinking, than most.

But, I do enjoy hearing all of your views and it is important to always keep an open mind, heart, and soul to the Holy Spirit......whatever you would like to call Him.      :Book:

I do so enjoy the Tent.     :cheerleader:

D.

[darryl]

yes, i believe Jesus was/ is God...God the Son.

[Ross]

1 John 3;9 " No one born of God makes a practice of sinning because God's seed lives in him. He cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

1 John 3;23 " And this is His commandment;
                    that we believe in the name[ delegated authority] of His Son Jesus Christ,
                    and love one another just as He gave us the commandment."

1 John 5;5 " WHO IS IT THAT CONQUERS THE WORLD BUT THE ONE WHO BELIEVES THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD."

1 John 5;19 " We KNOW that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin but the one who was born of God protects him and the evil one will not harm him."

1 John 4;4 " Little children, you have been born of God and have overcome them because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.

1 John 4;19 " We love because He first loved us."

Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.

But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.

I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.

My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.

The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.

For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL

Amen! When with someone in spirit, the power of the relationship and the associated memories are the power that influences the mind.
For example, when smelling something I can be back, in an instant, in a situation that occurred 20 years ago. That is power.
The power of great superiority of our Loving Father exceeds that. His word, the water of life, and the power of life through the seed which is planted in us exceeds our power of the body; when we are fully charged in the resurrection we will be like Him in every detail. Would seem to be why we are referred to by Paul as joint heirs with Christ. That is a statement and a half..

[eaglesway]

Indeed it is Ross.

"In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be  kind of first fruits among His creatures." Jam 1:18

[jabcat]

yes, i believe Jesus was/ is God...God the Son.

amen

[Ross]

"In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be  kind of first fruits among His creatures." Jam 1:18

Pretty inspiring really.
The most logical reasoning for mankind's existence.

[Dandelion]

There is an old legend, about St.Augustine, trying to understand the Trinity. I have copied it from the Internet, and will paste it here. I am sure we all will see the relevance.The Mystery of the Trinity:

There is a story that St. Augustine was walking on the beach contemplating the mystery of the Trinity. Then he saw a boy in front of him who had dug a hole in the sand and was going out to the sea again and again and bringing some water to pour into the hole. St. Augustine asked him, "What are you doing?" "I'm going to pour the entire ocean into this hole." "That is impossible, the whole ocean will not fit in the hole you have made" said St. Augustine. The boy replied, "And you cannot fit the Trinity in your tiny little brain." The story concludes by saying that the boy vanished because St. Augustine had been talking to an angel.

And so it goes.

D.

[micah7:9]

Don't really know if this is about a trinity or was Jesus God, but if the trinity is as said to be 3 "persons" in 1....please show me where in the Bible is the Holy Spirit said to be a "person." If not, there is no trinity outside of what orthodox religion teaches and from from what I have read, that teaching is theory and hypothesis.  :Peace2:

[Ross]

Just a little analysis; refer to a president and a vice president;
When the president is away the vice-president has full power; does not make him the president, just at the same level of authority and objectives. Fully trained and hand picked by the president.
Among the Jews the first born son has the blessings and authority of the Father. Which was why they called Jesus a blasphemer because He, Christ, was calling God His Father. No one was supposed to be claiming to be god.
Seems western life-style has influenced many about their opinion of who or what is God.

[eaglesway]

This subject was covered thorughly from every angle in a couple of threads. Maybe James has it or I can look it up tomoro evening if I have time, but we dont want to do that debate again. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to teach their opinion. :o) The OP can be resolved better by reading the ealrier threads where it was covered in deoth by people speaking from several different positions.