I am confused about what to believe when it comes to christ. Is he apart of the trinity? I have grown up believing that christ was one and the same with God.
I personally believe in the trinity.
God sent His Son, a reflection of the Father, all that God is.......to save us.....to teach us how to live and how to die.....not only to die in the physical sense, but to die to self, so that we will be open to the Spirit residing in us. The Holy Spirit is their Spirit here with us, if we allow His presence, to guide us, and give us wisdom and discernment, each step of our way.
That is how I see it. God gave us all what we needed to know Him; to be like Him; to give our lives to Him, so we could become a reflection of Him, here on earth, and in the world to come.
We are the light of the world!
Very beautiful to me.....
D.
Hi looking for answers you said ,
Quote from: LookingForAnswers on February 12, 2016, 10:49:07 AM
I am confused about what to believe when it comes to christ. Is he apart of the trinity? I have grown up believing that christ was one and the same with God.
For me , you would have to go to Genesis 1 and SEE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST /WORD OF GOD in the creation from the beginning ,,
He is there from the start and will be to the finnish .
All things for Him though Him Romans 11
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Col 1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1)
The WORD made flesh , Paul goes on to say and expound in explaining in 1 Cor 15 ''all things ''
If the Lord Jesus Christ is the in the flesh of all Gods creation [Gen1 ] , the seed is of birds and grain and mankind ''all things '' by a WORD OF GOD
Now this makes GOD REALLY MUCH LARGER than our little minds can comprehend , until the Lord expands it to KNOW the riches of HIS WISDOM that only comes through the TREE OF LIFE /JESUS CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ..
we can not have one without the other , you have His Word and the wrong spirit you are just ''bound '' It takes His Word and His Spirit TO HIS GLORY ..
Eph 1 Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
...17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you
a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
1
8I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened,
so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might... For me , I will share also my personal faith , just as Dandelion has ,
When the Word of God and the Spirit of God are ONE , than LIFE is given
when we have the WORD without Gods Spirit , it is dead , Jesus Christ is the WORD and died on the CROSS at our hands , How we handled the word of Life , sinners , while we were yet sinners Christ died for us .... The Word is dead and void and without form , Till Christ be formed in you , you become the temple of the Living God as one little pebble of a much bigger and more complex BUILDING OF GODS GLORY AND DESIGN , JESUS CHRIST TOLD US , I go to my Father[ONE AGAIN ] and another will come THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH , that will teach you and comfort you ,, chastening of the Lord to receive
Him and the FATHER AND ALL THOSE already gathered as ONE ,,
The WORD is dead as a seed , in our earthly bodies till the Spirit of Life comes to raise up that seed / Word of God in us planted by faith in God by God Himself , this tree of Life , being connected to something so much bigger and more than one can even fathom ,, this LIFTING UP the Lord Jesus Christ within us , draws all men unto Him and He does this over and over again into the FATHER whom is seeking them hearts and searching them out , So to me this is the ALL IN ALL that have already been gathered as the bread of heaven , food for thought and new wine the blood shed as the BODY OF CHRIST is being built upward and outward and coming down and into us all as God allows this Spiritual growth in truth and grace
for me , it is all ONE ,,,, there is no separation , The only separation that was , is we were once , void and darkened and without form and subject to the vanity of this world being dead in our sins /error , until the awakening OUT of death to Life in CHRIST was grated of the Father though the Son into the Holy Spirit [ALL IN ALL] ONE
ONE SPIRIT ONE FAITH ONE GOD Ephesians 4:4-6 (NASB)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in
one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6
one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. ONE FAITH , ONE HOPE, ONE LOVE , ONE GOD our true connection is to the LIVING GOD whom gave us Life in the first place ...
Hope this is clear , for me it is a hard thing to explain and even harder to understand , the simple fact is, ONE GOD whom made all things for His glory will be glorified in all things He has done in the end ... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: LookingForAnswers on February 12, 2016, 10:49:07 AM
I am confused about what to believe when it comes to christ. Is he apart of the trinity? I have grown up believing that christ was one and the same with God.
I'm not saying don't believe in the Trinity. Study it and let God lead you in that. But what I'd add is, Jesus is God the Son - same substance of God the Father, same "DNA" (for lack of a better term). John Smith's son, Bob, is not John Smith. But he is a Smith. Same blood, same family. Different position and different person, but same stock. The son, not the father, but still a Smith.
As far as the oneness of them - they are of the same substance, and they completely work and exist together in unity, oneness. What One says, the other says, and vice versa. (my simplistic way of understanding it).
Here is the way I understand it.
God is a family name, that belongs to Jesus and also to the whole family in heaven and earth, or will belong to everyone (Eph. 3:15). "Of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (John 10:34) Jesus ask, "Is it not written in your law I said ye are gods."
Jesus and the Father are two separate beings but Jesus came from the Father, we also came from our parents, (John 8:42) "I proceeded forth and came from God." Jesus existed before anything else was created. Christ said in (Rev. 1:8) "I am the beginning and the end." Verse 17 says "I am the first and the last." (Col. 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, "the firstborn of every creature". Last part of verse, (Rev. 3:14) "the beginning of the creation of God".
Jesus came from the Father and was our creator. God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, he is above Christ in rank, Christ is above us in rank (1Cor.11:3) "the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
My understanding is, Jesus was the firstborn of the Father he existed before anything else existed, except the Father, then Jesus with the help of the Father created everything else. Jesus was called God because the was Gods Son just like we inherit our fathers name so did Christ inherit his Fathers name. There is only ONE FATHER and ONE SON but many gods and many lords as Paul said, (1Cor. 8:5).
CHB
Hi jabcat,
I should have read your post first, you explained the whole thing in a few sentences. :gimmefive: I agree. :thumbsup:
CHB
:cloud9: And :iagree: with both of you.... :laughing7:
:)
and good post CHB, well done
Quote from: CHB on February 12, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
Here is the way I understand it.
God is a family name, that belongs to Jesus and also to the whole family in heaven and earth, or will belong to everyone (Eph. 3:15). "Of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (John 10:34) Jesus ask, "Is it not written in your law I said ye are gods."
Jesus and the Father are two separate beings but Jesus came from the Father, we also came from our parents, (John 8:42) "I proceeded forth and came from God." Jesus existed before anything else was created. Christ said in (Rev. 1:8) "I am the beginning and the end." Verse 17 says "I am the first and the last." (Col. 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, "the firstborn of every creature". Last part of verse, (Rev. 3:14) "the beginning of the creation of God".
Jesus came from the Father and was our creator. God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, he is above Christ in rank, Christ is above us in rank (1Cor.11:3) "the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
My understanding is, Jesus was the firstborn of the Father he existed before anything else existed, except the Father, then Jesus with the help of the Father created everything else. Jesus was called God because the was Gods Son just like we inherit our fathers name so did Christ inherit his Fathers name. There is only ONE FATHER and ONE SON but many gods and many lords as Paul said, (1Cor. 8:5).
CHB
I love that you shared what you did ,
Everything was called into existence from the WORD [Jesus Christ is his name ] title /sign proof ,given from the Father .. Father is also a title [sign proof]
Expressed as . a Consuming Fire , Spirit and Love .. Known by these nouns /names that describe Character , Jesus Christ was these manifested to be made known to those in the earth and under as being subject always to the LIVING GOD , I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE .
But cannot ignore the if you believe in ONE GOD you do well , the source of all power is from the LIVING GOD THE MOST HIGH
James 2 ...18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19
You believe that God is one. You do well;
the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?...
I believe that we are saying ,''we believe '' in name only and that is not enough without ''proof'' fruit of faith [Holy Word &Holy Spirit ] working in us . these signs proofs that follow
for me this is the difference between Babylon [many gods ] and the TRUE .. ONE TRUE GOD .
Quote from: CHB on February 12, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
Here is the way I understand it.
God is a family name, that belongs to Jesus and also to the whole family in heaven and earth, or will belong to everyone (Eph. 3:15). "Of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (John 10:34) Jesus ask, "Is it not written in your law I said ye are gods."
Jesus and the Father are two separate beings but Jesus came from the Father, we also came from our parents, (John 8:42) "I proceeded forth and came from God." Jesus existed before anything else was created. Christ said in (Rev. 1:8) "I am the beginning and the end." Verse 17 says "I am the first and the last." (Col. 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, "the firstborn of every creature". Last part of verse, (Rev. 3:14) "the beginning of the creation of God".
Jesus came from the Father and was our creator. God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, he is above Christ in rank, Christ is above us in rank (1Cor.11:3) "the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
My understanding is, Jesus was the firstborn of the Father he existed before anything else existed, except the Father, then Jesus with the help of the Father created everything else. Jesus was called God because the was Gods Son just like we inherit our fathers name so did Christ inherit his Fathers name. There is only ONE FATHER and ONE SON but many gods and many lords as Paul said, (1Cor. 8:5).
CHB
Very well said CHB. Nice encapsulation.
1Co_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Quote from: CHB on February 12, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
God is a family name, that belongs to Jesus and also to the whole family in heaven and earth, or will belong to everyone (Eph. 3:15). "Of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (John 10:34) Jesus ask, "Is it not written in your law I said ye are gods."
As Herbert W. Armstrong once said, when you become a Christian and get the indwelling of the Spirit, you become a member of the God family - adoption as a son or a daughter. As to Jesus being God, check my sig. A full explanation is that if we plug in the very ancient phonetic meanings of the four letters of the tetragrammaton, we then read "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand." It was Jesus speaking from the Burning Bush, and doing all the other things in the Old Testament.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 13, 2016, 05:26:26 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 12, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
God is a family name, that belongs to Jesus and also to the whole family in heaven and earth, or will belong to everyone (Eph. 3:15). "Of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (John 10:34) Jesus ask, "Is it not written in your law I said ye are gods."
As Herbert W. Armstrong once said, when you become a Christian and get the indwelling of the Spirit, you become a member of the God family - adoption as a son or a daughter. As to Jesus being God, check my sig. A full explanation is that if we plug in the very ancient phonetic meanings of the four letters of the tetragrammaton, we then read "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand." It was Jesus speaking from the Burning Bush, and doing all the other things in the Old Testament.
Lazarus said: It was Jesus speaking from the Burning Bush, and doing all the other things in the Old Testament.
:iagree:
Was you a member of the WWCG? I was a member for 3 1/2 years. What brought you out? You can pm me if you like
CHB
It seems from what I have learned(heard about) that belonging to WWCG must have been quite an experience. :dontknow: :dsunny:
Yeh,
As they say, been there, done that.
I was in WWCG for 20+ years. What an experience. So much to tell about this Church and its leadership.
L. Ray Smith was in that church too. Was a minister there until he saw it for what it was.
I went from being a Catholic to WWCG (at least it did not teach burning in hell for the wicked, just annihilation).
I am glad all that is behind.
:sigh: :sigh:
Quote from: CHB on February 13, 2016, 06:46:28 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 13, 2016, 05:26:26 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 12, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
God is a family name, that belongs to Jesus and also to the whole family in heaven and earth, or will belong to everyone (Eph. 3:15). "Of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (John 10:34) Jesus ask, "Is it not written in your law I said ye are gods."
As Herbert W. Armstrong once said, when you become a Christian and get the indwelling of the Spirit, you become a member of the God family - adoption as a son or a daughter. As to Jesus being God, check my sig. A full explanation is that if we plug in the very ancient phonetic meanings of the four letters of the tetragrammaton, we then read "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand." It was Jesus speaking from the Burning Bush, and doing all the other things in the Old Testament.
Lazarus said: It was Jesus speaking from the Burning Bush, and doing all the other things in the Old Testament.
:iagree:
Was you a member of the WWCG? I was a member for 3 1/2 years. What brought you out? You can pm me if you like
CHB
I was never a member, have just read a few of his books. I was a "card-carrying" Seventh-Day Adventist for a time, and read a LOT of Ellen G. White, but I got out of that, way out. Now, from what I hear, the SDA church is mainstreaming. Rats.
Yes micah it was quite an experience, at least for me it was.
CHB
But was Jesus the Father? Are they only one? Only two? Or are they both one and two?
Who did Jesus pray to? "The Father is greater than I" Jesus said.
Also said they were one. Prayed believers would be one as they are.
"Firstborn of all creation" straight out from the Father, so of the same essence, substance, character..
:cloud9: For me, it became vastly easier to understand once He showed me the principle of the seed. Christ is the Seed son, and that is Spirit. The Father is Spirit, and as such can only have a son that is Spirit, though encased in flesh, as all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, and the son's "kind" is the Father. Aww look, He has His Father's eyes...... :winkgrin: My :2c: Blessings..
I think Because JESUS is the word the Father is Spirit and the Spirit is greater than the Word , saying the word /Son dies
I don't think a Spirit can ever die and the Spirit makes the word alive the seed /word
When the WORD AND SPIRIT ARE ONE ALIVE
Luke 8 ...10And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables,
so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
11"Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved....
When the carnal mind reads the word is it what ? Just words and hard to understand and makes no sense , Example ''take up your cross ''
How does the carnal mind reason with that , literally ? what other meaning could the carnal mind assume it to mean , but literally speaking , so you have thousands of folks dragging around these big ol crosses on their backs ? seems silly but the carnal mind takes away from the Word of God its Spiritual meaning and purpose , we are to suffer for the Kingdom sake at the hands of sinners , that is enduring the cross and that shame forgiving those whom offend
My word is life quickened by the Spirit of life . Jesus prayed in the Spirit of God , the FATHER being the Word of Truth in the Spirit of truth as ,ONE
to me ,that union is unbreakable
Many Disciples Turn Away
...62"What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63"It is the Spirit who gives life;
the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him....
Just trying to help , maybe , or not ..
Quote from: Cardinal on February 14, 2016, 05:43:24 AM
:cloud9: For me, it became vastly easier to understand once He showed me the principle of the seed. Christ is the Seed son, and that is Spirit. The Father is Spirit, and as such can only have a son that is Spirit, though encased in flesh, as all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, and the son's "kind" is the Father. Aww look, He has His Father's eyes...... :winkgrin: My :2c: Blessings..
Wrote it the same times :thumbsup: I agree Jesus Christ is the tree of life , Word of GOD everything . of the Same Spirit of the Father etc ..
I do believe this was why we are to NOT quench the Spirit
the Testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy the fulfilling of ''all things ''
...18in everything give thanks;
for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. 19Do not quench the Spirit; 20do
not despise prophetic utterances....
Ephesians 4:30
A
nd do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thessalonians 5:20
Do not treat prophecies with contempt I do believe this is why Jesus always said tell no man , the carnal mind would take away from the WORD OF GOD or add to it , this is the devils work ..
You shall not surly die , that word
not was added to the word of God and the devil got his way with them ...
Jesus is the fulness of deity in bodily form.(Col 2:9)
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.(Col 1)
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(Mt 28)
But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.(1 Cor 15)
The Father(aquifer) is the source and the Son is the manifestation(fountain).
He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, the image of the invisible God. Heb 1
The glory of God illuminates it and the Lamb is its Lamp.(Rev 21)
The terminologies of systematic theology is really just different ways of defining something seen through a glass darkly. Its an elusive truth.
For me Jesus cannot be co-equal with the Father.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2016, 06:12:32 AM
Jesus is the fulness of deity in bodily form.(Col 2:9)
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.(Col 1)
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(Mt 28)
But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.(1 Cor 15)
The Father(aquifer) is the source and the Son is the manifestation(fountain).
He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, the image of the invisible God. Heb 1
The glory of God illuminates it and the Lamb is its Lamp.(Rev 21)
The terminologies of systematic theology is really just different ways of defining something seen through a glass darkly. Its an elusive truth.
For me Jesus cannot be co-equal with the Father.
So you also are saying they are One and the same John ? True worshippers worship Him in
Spirit & truth the Father seeks such to Worship Him
Quote from: LookingForAnswers on February 12, 2016, 10:49:07 AM
I am confused about what to believe when it comes to christ. Is he apart of the trinity? I have grown up believing that christ was one and the same with God.
I do not think that anyone is wrong in attempting to convey their understanding of this apparent enigma, neither is it helpful that this form of communication is limited in its expression, as indeed are we human beings limited in our understanding of infinite totality.
As I understand it, a human being's vision is blurred a thousand times over when it comes to Almighty God, and also He reveals Himself throughout all time to come to His child as His child can comprehend Him - the child is never the Parent although one with the Parent by blessed degree and blessed degree.
Mankind being in a finite world, is prone to damn and compartmentalise the river of infinite Truth so that it loses its flow and becomes finite to begin its slow decay. I bear this in mind because I see that there is a paradox created when transposing Spiritual reality into earthly words and concepts.
To declare that a human body is no less than the Supreme Almighty God in all of His perfect Purity, is to attribute to the Great God who is Spirit - and who is constant and unchanging - that which is transient, passing, and in a state of decay. And in so declaring, it becomes untrue as it stands, in my opinion.
However, seemingly paradoxically, to declare that the perfect spiritual Divine Being, the fullness of the Godhead, who dwelt in the body of Jesus of Galilee, is a mere man, also becomes untrue as it stands, in my opinion.
I investigate further and I see that the Christ of God spoke through the lips of the man Jesus of Nazareth.
The Christ of God was one with the Father long before the beginning of phenomenal material Creation.
The Father, whose Purity forever remains so, brought this Creation into being through His Christ, who is always one with the Godhead - the Christ who is His Agent, His Anointed One, for and in and through Creation.
As Christ is God's Anointed One for this Creation, in the body of the man Jesus dwelt the fullness of the Godhead, through Christ, in the utmost degree available to humanity in material phenomenal Creation.
Thus on behalf of the Godhead, Christ is the ever-replenishing well-spring which overflows with abundant life for the lost and dead children of this world that they might be filled with His joy.
"And these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in them"
"That the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD"
The ageless Christ of God is revealed through Jesus the Son of God, who represents humanity's uppermost understanding of the Supreme Almighty as the Son of Man.
Jesus the Christ has represented this little world as the Christ of God since before the beginning, alone knowing all that is intended by God for humanity.
"God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, did declare Him"
Not only did Jesus show the Father to humanity, but he also showed the highest ideal of perfection of man in Himself to humanity. Jesus is the bridge between God and man, in Him, the Divine Teacher in the flesh, was embodied the perfection and oneness of God and man, that they may all be one.
"The Lord is our God, the Lord is one"
So, bearing in mind that permanent spiritual reality is greater than ever-changing material phenomena, I personally say in one breath that Divinity as the Christ of God became incarnate and revealed the Supreme Being to humanity, and in another breath I say that while Jesus and the Father are one, the Father is greater than the man.
Some, it seems to me, do not distinguish between the Spiritual Christ of God and the body that carried Him, and they place Christ outside of themselves, and in so doing make themselves partial, and separate themselves from Him instead of being one with Him, for it is not a case of unity of separate pieces as in a jigsaw but it is rather an at-one-ment of Spirit as a rivulet becomes one with the great ocean.
When flesh is dead it shall not live in the Spirit, but here on earth Christ has taken the flesh and made it part of His body, along with the Spirit – as one. The Christ Child within must become youth and then mature. The Essence of life is Spirit and through Christ the flesh has become one – part of His body.
The Christ of God dwells within, He is not simply an external being. He must be lifted up to destroy the separation caused by the bondage to the world of the false mind of the sinful lesser self.
With that false belief gone, God and His children may all be as one. It is the mind of this world that presents separation from God, but the Creator has never left His children, who, through His Christ, is with us always.
This is the avenue I would walk.
Hebrews 5:5 For unto the angels He has not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that You are mindful of him? or the son of man, that You visit him? 7 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honour, and did set him over the works of Your hands
Quote from: lastpost on February 14, 2016, 06:08:41 PM
Quote from: LookingForAnswers on February 12, 2016, 10:49:07 AM
I am confused about what to believe when it comes to christ. Is he apart of the trinity? I have grown up believing that christ was one and the same with God.
I do not think that anyone is wrong in attempting to convey their understanding of this apparent enigma, neither is it helpful that this form of communication is limited in its expression, as indeed are we human beings limited in our understanding of infinite totality.
As I understand it, a human being's vision is blurred a thousand times over when it comes to Almighty God, and also He reveals Himself throughout all time to come to His child as His child can comprehend Him - the child is never the Parent although one with the Parent by blessed degree and blessed degree.
Mankind being in a finite world, is prone to damn and compartmentalise the river of infinite Truth so that it loses its flow and becomes finite to begin its slow decay. I bear this in mind because I see that there is a paradox created when transposing Spiritual reality into earthly words and concepts.
To declare that a human body is no less than the Supreme Almighty God in all of His perfect Purity, is to attribute to the Great God who is Spirit - and who is constant and unchanging - that which is transient, passing, and in a state of decay. And in so declaring, it becomes untrue as it stands, in my opinion.
However, seemingly paradoxically, to declare that the perfect spiritual Divine Being, the fullness of the Godhead, who dwelt in the body of Jesus of Galilee, is a mere man, also becomes untrue as it stands, in my opinion.
I investigate further and I see that the Christ of God spoke through the lips of the man Jesus of Nazareth.
The Christ of God was one with the Father long before the beginning of phenomenal material Creation.
The Father, whose Purity forever remains so, brought this Creation into being through His Christ, who is always one with the Godhead - the Christ who is His Agent, His Anointed One, for and in and through Creation.
As Christ is God's Anointed One for this Creation, in the body of the man Jesus dwelt the fullness of the Godhead, through Christ, in the utmost degree available to humanity in material phenomenal Creation.
Thus on behalf of the Godhead, Christ is the ever-replenishing well-spring which overflows with abundant life for the lost and dead children of this world that they might be filled with His joy.
"And these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in them"
"That the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD"
The ageless Christ of God is revealed through Jesus the Son of God, who represents humanity's uppermost understanding of the Supreme Almighty as the Son of Man.
Jesus the Christ has represented this little world as the Christ of God since before the beginning, alone knowing all that is intended by God for humanity.
"God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, did declare Him"
Not only did Jesus show the Father to humanity, but he also showed the highest ideal of perfection of man in Himself to humanity. Jesus is the bridge between God and man, in Him, the Divine Teacher in the flesh, was embodied the perfection and oneness of God and man, that they may all be one.
"The Lord is our God, the Lord is one"
So, bearing in mind that permanent spiritual reality is greater than ever-changing material phenomena, I personally say in one breath that Divinity as the Christ of God became incarnate and revealed the Supreme Being to humanity, and in another breath I say that while Jesus and the Father are one, the Father is greater than the man.
Some, it seems to me, do not distinguish between the Spiritual Christ of God and the body that carried Him, and they place Christ outside of themselves, and in so doing make themselves partial, and separate themselves from Him instead of being one with Him, for it is not a case of unity of separate pieces as in a jigsaw but it is rather an at-one-ment of Spirit as a rivulet becomes one with the great ocean.
When flesh is dead it shall not live in the Spirit, but here on earth Christ has taken the flesh and made it part of His body, along with the Spirit – as one. The Christ Child within must become youth and then mature. The Essence of life is Spirit and through Christ the flesh has become one – part of His body.
The Christ of God dwells within, He is not simply an external being. He must be lifted up to destroy the separation caused by the bondage to the world of the false mind of the sinful lesser self.
With that false belief gone, God and His children may all be as one. It is the mind of this world that presents separation from God, but the Creator has never left His children, who, through His Christ, is with us always.
This is the avenue I would walk.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Amen, the Seed Son.... :banana: :iagree:
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2016, 07:20:41 PM
Hebrews 5:5 For unto the angels He has not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that You are mindful of him? or the son of man, that You visit him? 7 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honour, and did set him over the works of Your hands
Confused :dontknow: isn't that Heb. 2:5-7???
Quote from: CHB on February 12, 2016, 06:47:00 PM
Hi jabcat,
I should have read your post first, you explained the whole thing in a few sentences. :gimmefive: I agree. :thumbsup:
CHB
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on February 14, 2016, 06:23:27 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2016, 06:12:32 AM
Jesus is the fulness of deity in bodily form.(Col 2:9)
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.(Col 1)
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(Mt 28)
But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.(1 Cor 15)
The Father(aquifer) is the source and the Son is the manifestation(fountain).
He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, the image of the invisible God. Heb 1
The glory of God illuminates it and the Lamb is its Lamp.(Rev 21)
The terminologies of systematic theology is really just different ways of defining something seen through a glass darkly. Its an elusive truth.
For me Jesus cannot be co-equal with the Father.
So you also are saying they are One and the same John ? True worshippers worship Him in Spirit & truth the Father seeks such to Worship Him
Not sure what "one and the same" means. One yes, the same no- that's what I would say. But I dont claim to fully understand the relationship of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost. None of the standard theological definitions(Trinity, Modalist, Bi-nitarian, Biblical Untitarian) satisfies me.
I think all the effort devoted to defining the mystery of the Deity is mostly wasted once we reach the point where we are insistent about defining the fine details of things seen through a glass darkly.
Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.
But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.
I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.
My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.
The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.
For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL
http://1drv.ms/1yGLIXg (http://1drv.ms/1yGLIXg)
This is sort of how I see it in a diagram. Just sharing, not trying to teach a new Godhead theory as fact :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2016, 08:49:31 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 14, 2016, 06:23:27 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2016, 06:12:32 AM
Jesus is the fulness of deity in bodily form.(Col 2:9)
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.(Col 1)
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(Mt 28)
But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.(1 Cor 15)
The Father(aquifer) is the source and the Son is the manifestation(fountain).
He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, the image of the invisible God. Heb 1
The glory of God illuminates it and the Lamb is its Lamp.(Rev 21)
The terminologies of systematic theology is really just different ways of defining something seen through a glass darkly. Its an elusive truth.
For me Jesus cannot be co-equal with the Father.
So you also are saying they are One and the same John ? True worshippers worship Him in Spirit & truth the Father seeks such to Worship Him
Not sure what "one and the same" means. One yes, the same no- that's what I would say. But I dont claim to fully understand the relationship of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost. None of the standard theological definitions(Trinity, Modalist, Bi-nitarian, Biblical Untitarian) satisfies me.
I think all the effort devoted to defining the mystery of the Deity is mostly wasted once we reach the point where we are insistent about defining the fine details of things seen through a glass darkly.
Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.
But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.
I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.
My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.
The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.
For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL
Good explanation. This makes sense to me and I agree that it's something we don't fully understand on this side of the veil.
:cloud9: Yeah, me too....a son is a son. I don't think there is a problem with Him being the Son and not the Father. Being "one" doesn't mean they have to be the same person. Blessings....
In the introduction of Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians,Thess., Thim.Titus, Phil., James, Peter, John, and Rev. All of these books refer to God and Jesus Christ. If there wasn't two different individuals why were they referred to as two? (1Cor.1:3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
CHB
I simplify it this way: God the Pure Father cannot exist in imperfection as He cannot look upon iniquity, and so proceeding forth from Him came the Son who is responsible for the uplifting and salvation of the imperfect creation. I see this as Spirit and Soul in simple terms, although in spiritual reality the study of Spirit and Soul is no doubt an unending wonder.
The Holy Spirit is manifold in attributes to my mind, and cannot be limited to human words, not even those found in the Holy Book excepting that one does not know from whence it comes or to where it goes – it is Spirit, living Spirit, and living Spirit cannot be confined by man's limitations.
God is All in All and 'personality', as humans often regard personality, is not what I would attribute to the Absolute Being who is above any conception of man's mind – perfect Divine intelligence and perfect Divine love.
The Personal Jesus in a decaying physical body had to remove Himself so that the Universal Christ Spirit might come and be in the hearts of His followers for ever. Thank you Master!
:cloud9: Amen, yes He did....
Yes, it is true.....I grew up in a time and a place where believing in the Trinity was the 'norm' and the only acceptable explanation for who God was, in my world, of a conservative Roman Catholic.
However, it still makes sense.
Yes, when Christ was brought to earth, He may well have given up, so to speak, some of His attributes to be one with us. However, I do not believe that that is who is actually is.
If we look in the Bible, relationships are always pictures as 'equal' between those who love and are loved.
1 Corinthians 12New International Version (NIV)
Concerning Spiritual Gifts
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Unity and Diversity in the Body
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
Love Is Indispensable
And yet I will show you the most excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
So, what I see from these passages are that we all have different gifts, but the same Spirit, and in Love, we are all united and equal.
I am going to apply this to the 3 persons of God. They have different assignments, if you will, but, in the spirit of love and unity, they are all equal.
In a love relationship, this is very important. Neither one should be considered less or more, but rather, a mutual holding up of one another is crucial to the balance of love. Each is made important, by the other. Without this, an imbalanced relationship can ensue and then love itself is in danger, in this type of setting. The value of the other is given by the beloved.
And then we have these passages:
John 1:
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, "This is the one I spoke about when I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'") 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
To me, this establishes Jesus as God's beloved son.
Then, while on earth, Jesus tells us again about His relationship with the Father, and with the Spirit:
Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
Now, even though Jesus states here that the Father is greater than Him, I still have the distinct sense that there is a balance and an equality of mutual love between the 3 persons of our one God, and that we are the recipients of their great and powerful union and love for each other, as we are given the inheritance to join them, in love, by our faith and God's grace. It is the love, spoken about in 1 Corinthians 13, that gives each person of the trinity their role and their equality, because each values and supports the other. Just as we learn in the verses associated with the gifts of the Spirit, in 1 Corinthians 12.
Now, I hope you can all make some sense out of my ramblings. I am trying to show, I suppose, that love makes for the equality, and because of this great love between the 3 persons of one God, we are the benefactors of their relationship to each other, and are able to be saved and walk with the Lord, as their relationship with one another, pours out on us. Their relationship is a model for us of love, of balance, of unity in the common good and goal of our salvation. Because of their unity and love, we can know God and we can be saved. Each valued by the other 2 of their unique and necessary roles, and of the great love between them. And, it is in that love, which trumps all else, that the equality dwells. Just as is described in 1 Corinthians 12.
Well, your comments are most welcome, as always.
D.
And, one more thing I might add, is that, we, ourselves, do not become Children of God, by our great skills or our gifts, but by God's great love for each of us, as we are, transformed by His grace and love, through faith in Him. And, we, as Universalist Christians, who believe all will one day come to God, must know that it is not by merit or accomplishments; not by works,[/u] but by faith and love that we will all be 'all in all', with our God, one day.
That same love that permeates the 3 persons of God, which gives glory and honor, due to their relationship, first and foremost.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
D.
I should add.....my 2 cents. :2c:
There is no three persons of God.
There is only one God - The Father in Heaven who is both Holy and Spirit.
Jesus was the Word of God made flesh but the Word of God was made far before the body of Jesus was made. In fact Jesus had to learn that He was the Word of God made flesh. He had to come to the understanding that He was the Christ.
The confusion for most comes from the understanding of what a "spirit" is. A spirit is the "being" part. For example,
Take yourself - write down everything that makes you - you. I'm not talking about your physical attributes. I'm talking about your mental self. Are you a caring person, sensitive person, are you hateful, are you joyful, etc..?
You see if you write down all these things about you then you will have written down what comprises your BEING or "Your Spirit". Now God the Father is different. His is known by His Love of ALL. That Spirit is His.
So there is no separate person called the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a direct reference to God the Father's Spirit which imparts to His Children just as a man impart his flesh and likeness to his children. We can know God and the Godhead by the things that are made.
as "IMO" please
I think of the Holy Spirit as God's Presence.. That's how I've come to think of it.. :smile:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2016, 08:49:31 PM
Not sure what "one and the same" means. One yes, the same no- that's what I would say. But I dont claim to fully understand the relationship of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost. None of the standard theological definitions(Trinity, Modalist, Bi-nitarian, Biblical Untitarian) satisfies me.
I think all the effort devoted to defining the mystery of the Deity is mostly wasted once we reach the point where we are insistent about defining the fine details of things seen through a glass darkly.
Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.
But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.
I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.
My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.
The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.
For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL
:goodpost: that's pretty much how it strikes me too.. tho I never thought that about the Spirit and water! I like that.. makes sense to me. And in total agreement with your last sentence (about all things..) :icon_flower:
I personally think it is less important what we call God, the Father; Jesus, His only begotten Son; and the Holy Spirit, and more important how we see their relationship and the implications for our viewpoint
and how we see the connection between their love; their mission and their unity.
As I said, I come from a trinitarian background. Born and raised a Roman Catholic, went to Catholic School for 12 years, and remained a RC for 47 years, faithfully going to Church and volunteering at Church, every week of my life, without skipping a beat. My son attended a Lutheran College and after only a few weeks there, decided to become Lutheran. In a few months, so did I and soon after began studying to be a Deacon and then a rostered Lutheran teacher, in the church. I have had much training in theology in both the RC church and the Lutheran Church, and have taught in both churches, and studied theology and continue to do so, in other denominations, as well. Many trained ministers in various traditions are close friends and comrades in ministry with me.
So, in the traditions I am most familiar with, I am very much the standard regarding the trinity. In fact, I am probably much more liberal in my thinking, than most.
But, I do enjoy hearing all of your views and it is important to always keep an open mind, heart, and soul to the Holy Spirit......whatever you would like to call Him. :Book:
I do so enjoy the Tent. :cheerleader:
D.
yes, i believe Jesus was/ is God...God the Son.
1 John 3;9 " No one born of God makes a practice of sinning because God's seed lives in him. He cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
1 John 3;23 " And this is His commandment;
that we believe in the name[ delegated authority] of His Son Jesus Christ,
and love one another just as He gave us the commandment."
1 John 5;5 " WHO IS IT THAT CONQUERS THE WORLD BUT THE ONE WHO BELIEVES THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD."
1 John 5;19 " We KNOW that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin but the one who was born of God protects him and the evil one will not harm him."
1 John 4;4 " Little children, you have been born of God and have overcome them because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
1 John 4;19 " We love because He first loved us."
Quote from: marie glen on February 15, 2016, 01:39:35 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2016, 08:49:31 PM
Basicly, I see the Father as having existed alone and self-sufficient within "unapproachable light", YHWH, the Creator. The first creation was the Logos, the seed, the beginning, the Lamb- a revelation of the nature of YHWH to the creation to come after, and through, the Logos.
But at the same time I have no problem with the idea of the Son having existed eternally with the Father, within the Father.
I don't believe we can see far enough through the misty glass of scripture to build a tower there.
My problem with the orthodox Trinity is it makes Jesus co-equal to the Father. I just cant see or accept that. Jesus is a Son. YHWH is the Father. This is why I lean towards Jesus as birthed in God as the beginning(alpha) of all things- the very words, Father and Son are communications from YHWH about their nature.
The Holy Spirit, to me, is like water, when flowing through the Father, YHWH it is the "Spirit of God", when flowing through Jesus it is the "Spirit of Christ"- yet it is always the same water, flowing from the same original source, beginning from YHWH and then through the Logos.
The "water of life" that makes us all one, a body under the headship of Jesus, a tabernacle for YHWH.
For me these kinds of ideas are all the scriptures present or require and to go much further in defining it just rubs me the wrong way LOL
Amen! When with someone in spirit, the power of the relationship and the associated memories are the power that influences the mind.
For example, when smelling something I can be back, in an instant, in a situation that occurred 20 years ago. That is power.
The power of great superiority of our Loving Father exceeds that. His word, the water of life, and the power of life through the seed which is planted in us exceeds our power of the body; when we are fully charged in the resurrection we will be like Him in every detail. Would seem to be why we are referred to by Paul as joint heirs with Christ. That is a statement and a half..
Indeed it is Ross.
"In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be kind of first fruits among His creatures." Jam 1:18
Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2016, 02:37:24 AM
"In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be kind of first fruits among His creatures." Jam 1:18
Pretty inspiring really.
The most logical reasoning for mankind's existence.
There is an old legend, about St.Augustine, trying to understand the Trinity. I have copied it from the Internet, and will paste it here. I am sure we all will see the relevance.The Mystery of the Trinity:
There is a story that St. Augustine was walking on the beach contemplating the mystery of the Trinity. Then he saw a boy in front of him who had dug a hole in the sand and was going out to the sea again and again and bringing some water to pour into the hole. St. Augustine asked him, "What are you doing?" "I'm going to pour the entire ocean into this hole." "That is impossible, the whole ocean will not fit in the hole you have made" said St. Augustine. The boy replied, "And you cannot fit the Trinity in your tiny little brain." The story concludes by saying that the boy vanished because St. Augustine had been talking to an angel.
And so it goes.
D.
Don't really know if this is about a trinity or was Jesus God, but if the trinity is as said to be 3 "persons" in 1....please show me where in the Bible is the Holy Spirit said to be a "person." If not, there is no trinity outside of what orthodox religion teaches and from from what I have read, that teaching is theory and hypothesis. :Peace2:
Just a little analysis; refer to a president and a vice president;
When the president is away the vice-president has full power; does not make him the president, just at the same level of authority and objectives. Fully trained and hand picked by the president.
Among the Jews the first born son has the blessings and authority of the Father. Which was why they called Jesus a blasphemer because He, Christ, was calling God His Father. No one was supposed to be claiming to be god.
Seems western life-style has influenced many about their opinion of who or what is God.
This subject was covered thorughly from every angle in a couple of threads. Maybe James has it or I can look it up tomoro evening if I have time, but we dont want to do that debate again. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to teach their opinion. :o) The OP can be resolved better by reading the ealrier threads where it was covered in deoth by people speaking from several different positions.
Quote from: Dandelion on February 15, 2016, 02:07:06 AM
I personally think it is less important what we call God, the Father; Jesus, His only begotten Son; and the Holy Spirit, and more important how we see their relationship and the implications for our viewpoint
and how we see the connection between their love; their mission and their unity.
As I said, I come from a trinitarian background. Born and raised a Roman Catholic, went to Catholic School for 12 years, and remained a RC for 47 years, faithfully going to Church and volunteering at Church, every week of my life, without skipping a beat. My son attended a Lutheran College and after only a few weeks there, decided to become Lutheran. In a few months, so did I and soon after began studying to be a Deacon and then a rostered Lutheran teacher, in the church. I have had much training in theology in both the RC church and the Lutheran Church, and have taught in both churches, and studied theology and continue to do so, in other denominations, as well. Many trained ministers in various traditions are close friends and comrades in ministry with me.
So, in the traditions I am most familiar with, I am very much the standard regarding the trinity. In fact, I am probably much more liberal in my thinking, than most.
But, I do enjoy hearing all of your views and it is important to always keep an open mind, heart, and soul to the Holy Spirit......whatever you would like to call Him. :Book:
I do so enjoy the Tent. :cheerleader:
D.
Just wanted to add, more for me than for you all, is that, all the above makes me no closer to God.
Knowledge is good, but God judges us by our hearts, not our heads. And, knowledge, without faith, hope and especially love, will get us nowhere.
I know we are saved by faith, not by works.
Sometimes, we need to listen to what we are saying. Just reading a book called
The Prodigal God, and I realized that this blurb had to be adjusted. I see some pride seeping in the above statement, and I had to address that. Do I hear an Amen?
Thanks, folks, for letting me put that out there. :gimpossible: :gumbrage:
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on February 15, 2016, 07:44:34 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on February 15, 2016, 02:07:06 AM
I personally think it is less important what we call God, the Father; Jesus, His only begotten Son; and the Holy Spirit, and more important how we see their relationship and the implications for our viewpoint
and how we see the connection between their love; their mission and their unity.
As I said, I come from a trinitarian background. Born and raised a Roman Catholic, went to Catholic School for 12 years, and remained a RC for 47 years, faithfully going to Church and volunteering at Church, every week of my life, without skipping a beat. My son attended a Lutheran College and after only a few weeks there, decided to become Lutheran. In a few months, so did I and soon after began studying to be a Deacon and then a rostered Lutheran teacher, in the church. I have had much training in theology in both the RC church and the Lutheran Church, and have taught in both churches, and studied theology and continue to do so, in other denominations, as well. Many trained ministers in various traditions are close friends and comrades in ministry with me.
So, in the traditions I am most familiar with, I am very much the standard regarding the trinity. In fact, I am probably much more liberal in my thinking, than most.
But, I do enjoy hearing all of your views and it is important to always keep an open mind, heart, and soul to the Holy Spirit......whatever you would like to call Him. :Book:
I do so enjoy the Tent. :cheerleader:
D.
Just wanted to add, more for me than for you all, is that, all the above makes me no closer to God.
Knowledge is good, but God judges us by our hearts, not our heads. And, knowledge, without faith, hope and especially love, will get us nowhere.
I know we are saved by faith, not by works.
Sometimes, we need to listen to what we are saying. Just reading a book called The Prodigal God, and I realized that this blurb had to be adjusted. I see some pride seeping in the above statement, and I had to address that. Do I hear an Amen?
Thanks, folks, for letting me put that out there. :gimpossible: :gumbrage:
D.
Dear Dandelion,
While I personally do not adhere to any of the methods of Biblical tradition that you have named (the creeds and three Persons in One in the traditional sense), I see that they have been Divinely beneficial to you. It is refreshing (to me anyway) to hear honesty and non-egotistical acceptance of self-criticism.
I was brought up a Roman Catholic at primary school but Father Moore never told us anything theological, he just spoke of Jesus. I was never swamped with religion as I went to church on Sundays and my mother and father sat at home smoking and drinking, but Communion was nice to do though. My elder brother went to a Catholic school, De La Salle, and it certainly did not do him any harm. I have been in Evangelical and Pentecostal services but I have to admit I found them empty and the spirit that I sensed was earthy and material and I personally did not find it uplifting, if I may put it like that.
Regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I have learnt that I should make myself aware hourly of the enemies of the Light all around, and signing the Cross is one quick method I often use which is something that the Spirit, which I trust through years of experience, suggested, because combined with the heart motive it is truly powerful against unseen foes who hate to see the Light making progress but hate to feel the love of the Cross. (If things are getting tough then it is a good sign.) I will say no more about that.
Personally, I consider it to be the case that it is not what you believe so much as what what you believe has done to you, in the sense of bringing you closer to the God who rules us all and who lives in us too as Christ (as you quoted: "We will come and make out home with them"). I truly believe that the Christ Spirit is the dominant factor over theologies (rather than theologies stifling the Christ Spirit), and there will come a time in the Spirit when all differences in theological belief will melt away in the unity of Service. What was so desperately important about this word and that word which even caused a spiritual friendship to fracture will be seen to have been so petty when compared to the Life of opportunity now set before the follower of Christ Himself.
I have been trying to understand why people believe what they do and in so doing I have realised that fear plays such a huge part in all of this. Fear of being wrong after so much effort and thought has been put in to devising a theological structure; fear of having to reorganise a very intricate way of thought; fear indeed of the unknown; and fear of evil itself.
I cannot help but see one world being made up of both the Spiritual and Material worlds. I do not personally take visions literally and create a theology out of them. I also think it is a dangerous pedestal to climb upon for anyone to be thinking of the right to judgement of others at their own judgement – are they even capable of judging themselves, because that is the way of it in my understanding – our higher Selves, the Spirit within which God has given will judge us, everything, commissions, missed opportunities, second and third best choices, hatred of others who have harmed us, that dark human desire for revenge which was harboured for years. And in the Spirit nothing is hidden from anyone, all is seen as a picture book on and in ones being, no more pretence, no more superiority, no more difference...
My own beliefs would not only transgress the boundaries set for this forum should I voice them (guests should make every effort to be polite), but I also realise that what I believe would be frightening to some, and the only way that the Spirit works in my book is through Love alone.
Most of what I say theologically is not from me but it is me saying what I have heard from what I personally believe to be the Spirit, and it has not come from the inspired mind of a man or woman whether in the Bible or not, but that is something that I have to live with as I see it is too different for many. I am not here to change anyone's mind, I am here now and again to learn why others seem to think what they think and also because my greatest joy is the chance to think of the Christ, for in thinking of Him as the Tender Teacher or as the Spiritual Saviour brings around me and in me the only thing I ever want – more of Him.