Stringing Claims Together

[Graph1159]

Hi everyone,
Typically, biblical UR makes the following claims:

1. Faith in Christ is needed to experience salvation in this life and in the coming age(s).
2. Those who die as unbelievers will experience judgment or punishment, but
3. God's ultimate goal is redemptive, and everyone will ultimately experience freedom from sin and death.

Why is it, that there is no passage of Scripture that puts all 3 claims together? I remember a long time ago when I was studying the Rapture and Tribulation, the dispensationalist doctrine had the same problem: There were a bunch of claims which individually had Scriptural support, but no passage of the Bible put all the claims together. Because of that, I don't know whether the fundamentalists' conception of the Tribulation or the Rapture are correct, and I know that many others here (and ET Christians as well) have similar uncertainty or refute those doctrines altogether.

As for UR, I think that the Scriptures for claim #3 are strong and straightforward enough to prove the salvation of all even though the whole theology isn't in one place.  But how would you explain to people that we can be certain of UR even though the Bible doesn't string all of our claims together the way that we do when we present the doctrine?

Thank you for your help,
Samuel

[WhiteWings]

I think it's simply because it's assumed the reader remembers what  has he/she read before. If one verse says Jesus is the Son of God, it doesn't have to be repeated in every verse referencing to Jesus.
When God states in verse 1 He's gonna do X then you can accept it as a fact that in verse 1000 and 7000 He still is gonna do X.


Also keep in mind that the NT often makes a shorthand reference to an OT event. When such a reference is made it's assumed the reader thinks about the OT part and a whole story unfolds in their heads. My point is while the NT verses seem to be incomplete of maybe even disconnected (not strung together) the OT counterparts are the complete story.


Finally; the Father seems to like hide and seek games. We have to work hard to gain knowledge. The Son did likewise. He used parables, most didn't fully understand. So he spoke the truth, but at the same time He hid it.

:2c:

[Graph1159]

Hi WhiteWings,
Thank you for your response. I especially like the part about how God plays hide and seek games (with the example of Jesus' parables) so that the truth can only be found by those who most earnestly seek it.

[eaglesway]

Hi everyone,
Typically, biblical UR makes the following claims:

1. Faith in Christ is needed to experience salvation in this life and in the coming age(s).
2. Those who die as unbelievers will experience judgment or punishment, but
3. God's ultimate goal is redemptive, and everyone will ultimately experience freedom from sin and death.

Why is it, that there is no passage of Scripture that puts all 3 claims together? I remember a long time ago when I was studying the Rapture and Tribulation, the dispensationalist doctrine had the same problem: There were a bunch of claims which individually had Scriptural support, but no passage of the Bible put all the claims together. Because of that, I don't know whether the fundamentalists' conception of the Tribulation or the Rapture are correct, and I know that many others here (and ET Christians as well) have similar uncertainty or refute those doctrines altogether.

As for UR, I think that the Scriptures for claim #3 are strong and straightforward enough to prove the salvation of all even though the whole theology isn't in one place.  But how would you explain to people that we can be certain of UR even though the Bible doesn't string all of our claims together the way that we do when we present the doctrine?

Thank you for your help,
Samuel

Actually, I think  1 Cor 15:20-28 does that.

[eaglesway]

I might mention also that systematic theology is not necessarily of God in my opinion. The verses that people who believe in eternal torment string together are cut out of the whole cloth of scripture, which was "breathed" by the Holy Spirit, not as a systematic theology, but as the living and abiding word of truth- the sword of the Spirit.

Combined with Ephesians 1:9-11, Colossians 1:16-21 and Romans 8:23-28, I cannot see how anyone who reads then without the blinders of systematic theology on, can come to any other conclusion. I have always been a "word" guy, and those verses overthrew all the systematic theology I had absorbed to that that point.

[shawn]

Hi everyone,
Typically, biblical UR makes the following claims:

1. Faith in Christ is needed to experience salvation in this life and in the coming age(s).
2. Those who die as unbelievers will experience judgment or punishment, but
3. God's ultimate goal is redemptive, and everyone will ultimately experience freedom from sin and death.

Why is it, that there is no passage of Scripture that puts all 3 claims together? I remember a long time ago when I was studying the Rapture and Tribulation, the dispensationalist doctrine had the same problem: There were a bunch of claims which individually had Scriptural support, but no passage of the Bible put all the claims together. Because of that, I don't know whether the fundamentalists' conception of the Tribulation or the Rapture are correct, and I know that many others here (and ET Christians as well) have similar uncertainty or refute those doctrines altogether.

As for UR, I think that the Scriptures for claim #3 are strong and straightforward enough to prove the salvation of all even though the whole theology isn't in one place.  But how would you explain to people that we can be certain of UR even though the Bible doesn't string all of our claims together the way that we do when we present the doctrine?

Thank you for your help,
Samuel

Actually, I think  1 Cor 15:20-28 does that.

I love how that passage reads in the Message translation...

There is a nice symmetry in this: Death initially came by a man, and resurrection from death came by a man. Everybody dies in Adam; everybody comes alive in Christ. But we have to wait our turn: Christ is first, then those with him at his Coming, the grand consummation when, after crushing the opposition, he hands over his kingdom to God the Father. He won't let up until the last enemy is down—and the very last enemy is death! As the psalmist said, "He laid them low, one and all; he walked all over them." When Scripture says that "he walked all over them," it's obvious that he couldn't at the same time be walked on. When everything and everyone is finally under God's rule, the Son will step down, taking his place with everyone else, showing that God's rule is absolutely comprehensive—a perfect ending!

[eaglesway]

AMEN!!!

[marie glen]

Actually, I think  1 Cor 15:20-28 does that.

I might mention also that systematic theology is not necessarily of God in my opinion. The verses that people who believe in eternal torment string together are cut out of the whole cloth of scripture, which was "breathed" by the Holy Spirit, not as a systematic theology, but as the living and abiding word of truth- the sword of the Spirit.

Combined with Ephesians 1:9-11, Colossians 1:16-21 and Romans 8:23-28, I cannot see how anyone who reads then without the blinders of systematic theology on, can come to any other conclusion. I have always been a "word" guy, and those verses overthrew all the systematic theology I had absorbed to that that point.

Amen!  :iagree:

Every verse which some think refer to a "hell" can be easily answered - "gehenna" was the city dump where the bodies of criminals were cast, and the fire was kept stoked.. "better to throw your hand or eye there than your whole body end up there' when you commit a crime against one of these little ones!!

"He went to the lower part of the earth" er, the grave  :smile: "hades" place of the dead is still the grave/sheol "where there is no thought nor doing" where Jacob (or was it JOb?) asked God to hide him, and where he said "all meet in sheol"...

"He preached, via the Spirit, to those who were going to perish while the ark was being prepared"..

'The angels, which left their first place are reserved in chains awaiting judgement" - once they became imperfect, the opposite of God/Life/Perfection, they cannot reverse their course and make their self again perfect.. what with being, well, imperfect, so they are in chains of darkness, locked into judgment!

"The last enemy to be vanquished will be death." "Hell"/hades (a mistranslation because 'hades' is greek belief) "the grave" and death are cast into the Lake Of Fire, the second death" - there will be no more graves, no more death for all will have been "made alive".. no dead..

amen! Colossians 1:20 - "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus" sorry paraphrased through memory..

[sheila]

  :thumbsup:  the progency of Adam..who kept not the command[don't eat from tokogae] of which

  through one man sin entered.

   Look!  the   Temple Ark opened in Heaven.......!  just as in the days of Noah....if I be lifted up

  I shall draw all men.......I will make you fishers of men!!