UR Salvation

[lee100]

Hey Guys,

Here is a little something to chew on tonight.

Universalists state that if a person does not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour in this lifetime, there is another opportunity to do so "after death." Let's examine this assertion.

The writer to the Hebrews says (10:26),

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

To whomever this applies, the clear indication is that there is no second chance for some under certain conditions. There comes a point in which Christ's sacrifice no longer applies. So there is a line drawn - an end point - past which there is no salvation. Unlike the universalist who asserts that salvation is an open-ended process undeterred by death, the author of the Hebrews does talk about a time in which Christ's sacrifice is no longer relevant. And if Christ's sacrifice no longer "covers" this time-frame and condition, then salvation can no longer be obtained in that "zone".

That is unless the universalist decouples salvation from Christ's sacrifice. Which the universalist does either overtly or covertly.

Let's see how the universalist dissociates Christ's sacrifice from the process of salvation.

Universalists talk about God saving everyone. They're pinning their hopes on God doing this, not necessarily Jesus. Whenever a universalist asks a Christian, "Don't you believe that God has the power and will to save everybody," the focus is on God and not on Christ. Paul said to the jailor, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The focus for Paul was Christ, not God. Christ was the means through which God effected salvation. There is no other way. Paul experienced problems with the Israelites of his day precisely because he focussed on Jesus Christ, not on a universal God acceptible to the Hebrews, the Romans and the Greeks! One cannot rely abstractly on God's will and power as an argument for salvation. Christ is the fulcrum of salvation. And as the writer to the Hebrews says, Christ's sacrifice is not an open-ended, unlimited process. It has an end.

Just what is the process of salvation and is it repeatable indefinitely? The Bible says that "there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood." Blood was painted on the door posts of the Hebrews in Egypt before the exodus. They were spared; the Egyptians were not. Jesus is the door through which we pass; his blood cleanses us on our way to heaven. The Book of Revelation (7:14) shows those who have arrived there "washed in the blood of the lamb". Note that the Book of Revelation never shows anybody in heaven NOT ALREADY washed in the Lamb's blood.

Question: for those who have not been washed in the blood of the lamb prior to death, how do they get to heaven unwashed? There is nothing in the Old Testament model of salvation that shows anyone not passing through the Red Sea (a type of Christ's blood) arriving in the land of milk and honey. There is nothing in Paul's writings that hints at a salvation process different from belief in Christ's sacrifice. So how do the "unwashed" come into heaven in order to get a chance at salvation? Once one dies and is in heaven, there is no process of regeneration. Those who have died in Christ and are in heaven have passed through the blood in order to get there. One doesn't get there and then pass through the blood. Otherwise there would be sin in heaven attached to the one coming in "unwashed". The Red Sea passage of the Hebrews in Exodus PRECEDED the arrival into the land of milk and honey.

The universalist implies that this process of passing through the blood is an experience repeatable in heaven. Not one New Testament writer EVER says that the cleansing process of Christ's blood is an experience repeatable after death. "Today is the day of salvation," says Paul, not tomorrow. Otherwise the apostles' testimonies would be irrelevant in this life. Why not just wait for everybody to get up there and then apply the blood. The disciples did not go around preaching a salvation apart from a belief in Jesus here and now. Belief in Christ was never seen as a deferable experience past death for any New Testament writer.

Paul says that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God. There is no blood available in heaven to cleanse the unclean. Those IN heaven have already passed through the blood of the lamb. The universal apologist is banking on an abstract quality and power of God to "save" men in some future when God has already invested His will and power in the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Apart from Christ there is no salvation. Nowhere is it written or shown in the New Testament that Christ's blood and sacrifice is made available to anyone in heaven.

As Peter says, he who has died is finished with sin. There is no cleansing for those who have died. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it says that there is an uncrossable gulf between the condemned and the saved. Uncrossable means exactly that. No way across. The gulf is never bridged in the parable whatever interpretation one places on it. There is no way across because those who have made it across are already there washed by the blood of the lamb. There is no other abstract, divine process to get them there if they haven't gotten there through the blood. The universalist is banking on some future, undefined experience of salvation that he cannot detail in specific terms (i.e., Christ and his sacrifice).

So what process apart from the blood of Christ does the universalist bank on for the salvation of all men? He is counting on some abstract quality of God, philosophically defined, to do the job. But this is not God's way. Very specifically Jesus is! And there is nothing in the entire Bible that shows Christ's blood atoning in heaven for those who somehow "might have gotten there" not through The Door marked by Christ's blood. If all are saved, then Paul did not have to preach Christ and endure the opposition of the Hebrew deists or theists of his time. He could have just gotten away with saying that "God, in whom we all believe philosophically, will save all of us" and the Israelites would not have been offended by Paul in the least. But they did find the cross an offense because it is the only way and it is not an undefined, abstract, ecumenical experience. Something universalists never focus on in their debates - the uniqueness of the cross, the sacrifice, Christ himself. Their words are always framed in abstract, philosophic terms - which is not the language of the Bible.

Relying solely on God's will to save anyone - that is not a principle in the New Testament. The salvation process is inherent in Christ and resides in Jesus' blood alone. God has turned it all over to Jesus. There is no other way. The universalist is a philosopher trying to dance around the salvation model and process presented to us in the Bible. Sadly the universalist obliterates all of the details of salvation in Christ by banking on "something in the future, something in God" and thus renders the gospel that is already here irrelevant. Is this Christian? Is that what Paul, Peter, John, James, Luke, Matthew, and Mark all worked and died for? Which is why Jesus himself never uttered those words "all men will be saved." He never could have motivated them with that line!

Published on the web with permission.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The total misapplication of all scripture in terms of salvation is the unscriptural notion that it was EVER about opportunities and anything but a process that all have to go through in the first place.

[Tony N]

The total misapplication of all scripture in terms of salvation is the unscriptural notion that it was EVER about opportunities and anything but a process that all have to go through in the first place.

Amen Paul.
It is a sad thing when people have to prop up false straw men arguments which they then knock down as if we who believe God that He will save all believe in the straw men arguments they put forth.
Poor lee100 can't even get our own arguments correct in order to come against our real arguments.

[peacemaker]

Here is a little something to chew on tonight.

What watching you copy and paste the false assumptions of another man?

An abstract concept created to monitor your own ongoing decay.

"To prevent further truth decay, brush up on His Word."

peacemaker

[preistsplace]

Lee I have a question for you....
Do you only see salvation as deliverance from eternal hell?

[Tim B]

You know Lee100,

God willeth the salvation of ALL men. If he doesn't do save them all, I can tell you this: he's quite the slacker. Fortunately for us, he isn't.  :bigGrin:

1 Timothy 2:4:

4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

Isaiah 46:10:

10Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from of old that which hath not been done, Saying, `My counsel doth stand, And all My delight I do.'

1 Cor. 13:8:

8The love doth never fail

And man can do nothing to stop Him.

Daniel 4:35:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing. And He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand or say to Him, What are You doing?

God WILL save all men. It is literally inevitable.

[willieH]

Hey Guys,

Here is a little something to chew on tonight.

Universalists state that if a person does not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour in this lifetime, there is another opportunity to do so "after death." Let's examine this assertion.

The writer to the Hebrews says (10:26),

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

More of your black and false "gospel" of FEAR!  :thumbdown:  -- 1 John 4:18 -- there is NO FEAR in LOVE... and the opposite is true as well: there is  NO LOVE in FEAR -- your preaching is self-condemning for it does NOT PROMOTE -- GOOD NEWS which is what the GOSPEL means and ...IS!

Instead, in your pious self-righteousness, you bellow condemnations upon YOURSELF! As you falsely consider yourself SINLESS... whatsoever is NOT of FAITH is SIN... and whatever is lacking in your FAITH is willfully disregarding TRUTH...

Chew on THIS,  "Lee100":

FIRST -- NO ONE completely has the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH... Do YOU think you know ALL TRUTH Lee100?  For if you DISBELIEVE in any part of the "TRUTH" which has been given you (such as "UR") Then YOU are WILLFULLY SINNING Lee100!  Beware!  :sigh:

SECOND -- there is no such thing as an "UNWILLFUL" sin... If you SIN, your WILL was involved in the SIN taking place... no excuses.   According to your tunnel vision -- If therefore YOU have SINNED, since you came to KNOW that JESUS CHRIST is your Savior... then I guess its a "it sux to be you" thing...  :dontknow:   

And EVERY Christian that has SINNED since believing, is TOAST according to you... Get a life!  JESUS TOOK AWAY the SIN of the WORLD -- John 1:29 -- try believing the WORD for a change!

THIRD -- Heb 10:26 states there is NO MORE SACRIFICE for SINS... No man can PAY for even ONE sin... and the ONLY "sacrifice" is the one which TOOK SIN AWAY... This verse does NOT MENTION Salvation now does it Lee100?  Nor does it mention that the sacrifice which TOOK AWAY SIN is no longer available concerning SALVATION, as SALVATION is NOT MENTIONED, ...Only within your PUFFED UP suppositions do you preach that SALVATION is removed from a Christian, when the Scriptures PLAINLY note:

CHRIST:

Heb 13:5 -- I will NEVER LEAVE you, NOR FORSAKE YOU... and,

Paul said: 

Rom 8:38-39 -- for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things PRESENT, nor things TO COME, nor height, nor depth, nor ANY OTHER CREATURE, shall BE ABLE to SEPARATE US from the LOVE of GOD which is IN CHRIST JESUS, our Lord.  

Well? So much for your "CHEW" --  :laughing7:

The next verse -- Heb 10:27 -- does mention JUDGMENT... and the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW -- John 12:31 -- so JUDGMENT will be a part of THIS LIFE...

Gal 6:8 -- for he that SOWETH to his FLESH, shall OF THE FLESH, ...reap corruption, but he that SOWETH to the SPIRIT, shall of the SPIRIT reap life everlasting [aionios - time oriented term]

IOW -- you SIN in your FLESH, your FLESH shall suffer for it... You sow to the SPIRIT in obedience and submission to CHRIST, and your SPIRIT shall prosper your existence here.

Here's a verse JUST for YOU Lee100:

1 Cor 2:14 -- but the NATURAL MAN recieveth NOT the things of the SPIRIT of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he KNOW them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned -- This verse in part was written JUST for YOU Lee100 -- You shall NOT recieve the TRUTH for the TRUTH is foolishness unto  you...  :sigh:

To whomever this applies, the clear indication is that there is no second chance for some under certain conditions.

FIRST -- As I have pointed out, it does not "apply" to anyone!  Peter KNEW CHRIST, yet in the PUBLIC he denied the TRUTH (CHRIST is the TRUTH)... Is Peter therefore NOT SAVED?

SECOND -- Also, there is NO such thing as "CHANCE" concerning Salvation either... Please note where a "FIRST CHANCE" to be SAVED is noted! :mnah:

There comes a point in which Christ's sacrifice no longer applies.

What a LIE...  :thumbdown: I just quoted where CHRIST stated He would NEVER leave us... also, Paul noted that there is NOTHING that can SEPARATE us from His LOVE...

So there is a line drawn - an end point - past which there is no salvation.

More "B.S." -- Book, chapter and verse -- where it says there is NO SALVATION upon crossing this "drawn line"... or "end point" -- THOSE are YOUR "false" words... not the Scriptures speaking...  :thumbdown:

Unlike the universalist who asserts that salvation is an open-ended process undeterred by death, the author of the Hebrews does talk about a time in which Christ's sacrifice is no longer relevant. And if Christ's sacrifice no longer "covers" this time-frame and condition, then salvation can no longer be obtained in that "zone".

Like I said above... the verse does NOT mention SALVATION... only YOUR FALSE ASSUMPTION and SUPPOSITION notes this fallacy.

That is unless the universalist decouples salvation from Christ's sacrifice. Which the universalist does either overtly or covertly.

There is no SEPARATING done except by your ATTEMPT to SEPARATE... which TRUE believers shall SHUN in a moment, for your LIES and false teachings, easily expose themselves...

The verse does not separate or "decouple" CHRIST's sacrifice for SIN... and thereby remove the SALVATION it provides... It only serves the SIN to be EXPOSED in JUDGMENT as -- Rev 3:18 -- notes, in the SHAME of NAKEDNESS...  You better watch the condition of your own "clothing" there, Lee100!

Let's see how the universalist dissociates Christ's sacrifice from the process of salvation.

Universalists talk about God saving everyone. They're pinning their hopes on God doing this, not necessarily Jesus. Whenever a universalist asks a Christian, "Don't you believe that God has the power and will to save everybody," the focus is on God and not on Christ.

YOU endorse this? :omg:  No wonder you WILLFULLY wallow in rivers of Babylon!  You so much as assert we should focus on CHRIST and NOT GOD!  CHRIST shall submit Himself to GOD (as He has ALWAYS done) -- 1 Cor 15:22

CHRIST's focus was ALWAYS  upon GOD, ...every letter PAUL wrote opened with GOD FIRST, then CHRIST... CHRIST is the expressed IMAGE of GOD -- Heb 1:3 --  not GOD Himself...

It is YHVH which SAVES... as the name JESUS [IESOUS]  depicts by definition, and actually MEANS = YHVH SAVES. (Strongs #G2424 -- IESOUS -- look it up or don't, it won't change the meaning one way or the other)

Paul said to the jailor, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The focus for Paul was Christ, not God.

You are decieving yourself PURPOSELY... willfully sinning... shame on you.  CHRIST noted over and again... that HE did NOTHING of HIMSELF... and deferred continually to the Father.

Paul did this as WELL... The reason Paul noted to believe on the name JESUS CHRIST IS a focus upon GOD!  If you knew anything about the SCRIPTURES, that is...  because IESOUS (JESUS) MEANS -- YHVH Saves!  You worship the FLESH of a MAN (son of man)... instead of GOD who dwelt IN the Son of Man...

PAUL noted that (as followers) we no longer KNOW Him (or any other man) after the FLESH -- 2 Cor 5:16 -- for we observe in the SPIRIT, both of GOD and of our brethren -- our fellow man...  Your carnality reaches new heights...  :sigh:  Or should I say ...lows  :thumbdown:

Enough of this COPIED PARROTED -- garbage... believe what you will, and take your flag of unrighteousness to your grave... seeya when we all come up...

You only show your ineptness, as you have no words of your own as the below DISCLAIMER notes:

Christ was the means through which God effected salvation. There is no other way. Paul experienced problems with the Israelites of his day precisely because he focussed on Jesus Christ, not on a universal God acceptible to the Hebrews, the Romans and the Greeks! One cannot rely abstractly on God's will and power as an argument for salvation. Christ is the fulcrum of salvation. And as the writer to the Hebrews says, Christ's sacrifice is not an open-ended, unlimited process. It has an end.

Just what is the process of salvation and is it repeatable indefinitely? The Bible says that "there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood." Blood was painted on the door posts of the Hebrews in Egypt before the exodus. They were spared; the Egyptians were not. Jesus is the door through which we pass; his blood cleanses us on our way to heaven. The Book of Revelation (7:14) shows those who have arrived there "washed in the blood of the lamb". Note that the Book of Revelation never shows anybody in heaven NOT ALREADY washed in the Lamb's blood.

Question: for those who have not been washed in the blood of the lamb prior to death, how do they get to heaven unwashed? There is nothing in the Old Testament model of salvation that shows anyone not passing through the Red Sea (a type of Christ's blood) arriving in the land of milk and honey. There is nothing in Paul's writings that hints at a salvation process different from belief in Christ's sacrifice. So how do the "unwashed" come into heaven in order to get a chance at salvation? Once one dies and is in heaven, there is no process of regeneration. Those who have died in Christ and are in heaven have passed through the blood in order to get there. One doesn't get there and then pass through the blood. Otherwise there would be sin in heaven attached to the one coming in "unwashed". The Red Sea passage of the Hebrews in Exodus PRECEDED the arrival into the land of milk and honey.

The universalist implies that this process of passing through the blood is an experience repeatable in heaven. Not one New Testament writer EVER says that the cleansing process of Christ's blood is an experience repeatable after death. "Today is the day of salvation," says Paul, not tomorrow. Otherwise the apostles' testimonies would be irrelevant in this life. Why not just wait for everybody to get up there and then apply the blood. The disciples did not go around preaching a salvation apart from a belief in Jesus here and now. Belief in Christ was never seen as a deferable experience past death for any New Testament writer.

Paul says that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God. There is no blood available in heaven to cleanse the unclean. Those IN heaven have already passed through the blood of the lamb. The universal apologist is banking on an abstract quality and power of God to "save" men in some future when God has already invested His will and power in the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Apart from Christ there is no salvation. Nowhere is it written or shown in the New Testament that Christ's blood and sacrifice is made available to anyone in heaven.

As Peter says, he who has died is finished with sin. There is no cleansing for those who have died. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it says that there is an uncrossable gulf between the condemned and the saved. Uncrossable means exactly that. No way across. The gulf is never bridged in the parable whatever interpretation one places on it. There is no way across because those who have made it across are already there washed by the blood of the lamb. There is no other abstract, divine process to get them there if they haven't gotten there through the blood. The universalist is banking on some future, undefined experience of salvation that he cannot detail in specific terms (i.e., Christ and his sacrifice).

So what process apart from the blood of Christ does the universalist bank on for the salvation of all men? He is counting on some abstract quality of God, philosophically defined, to do the job. But this is not God's way. Very specifically Jesus is! And there is nothing in the entire Bible that shows Christ's blood atoning in heaven for those who somehow "might have gotten there" not through The Door marked by Christ's blood. If all are saved, then Paul did not have to preach Christ and endure the opposition of the Hebrew deists or theists of his time. He could have just gotten away with saying that "God, in whom we all believe philosophically, will save all of us" and the Israelites would not have been offended by Paul in the least. But they did find the cross an offense because it is the only way and it is not an undefined, abstract, ecumenical experience. Something universalists never focus on in their debates - the uniqueness of the cross, the sacrifice, Christ himself. Their words are always framed in abstract, philosophic terms - which is not the language of the Bible.

Relying solely on God's will to save anyone - that is not a principle in the New Testament. The salvation process is inherent in Christ and resides in Jesus' blood alone. God has turned it all over to Jesus. There is no other way. The universalist is a philosopher trying to dance around the salvation model and process presented to us in the Bible. Sadly the universalist obliterates all of the details of salvation in Christ by banking on "something in the future, something in God" and thus renders the gospel that is already here irrelevant. Is this Christian? Is that what Paul, Peter, John, James, Luke, Matthew, and Mark all worked and died for? Which is why Jesus himself never uttered those words "all men will be saved." He never could have motivated them with that line!

Published on the web with permission.

:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

come back when YOU have something to say...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

To whomever this applies, the clear indication is that there is no second chance for some under certain conditions.

FIRST -- As I have pointed out, it does not "apply" to anyone!  Peter KNEW CHRIST, yet in the PUBLIC he denied the TRUTH (CHRIST is the TRUTH)... Is Peter therefore NOT SAVED?

And what about: Abraham, Moses, Job, Noach, Daniel, Isaiah, ...?
All people God smiled upon. But they never read the NT. Neither they met Jesus. Whoops.
They must be burning in hell right now because the where born a few years to early...