universal salvation is not salvation

[Andrew]

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/doctrine-universal-salvation-is-not-salvation.pdf


This is a back and forth series of letters between a universalist and two preachers of the cross(pretty close to what i'm leaning towards)

Roger Tutt is the universalist


http://www.thepathoftruth.com/testimonies/victor.htm

Victor's testimony is one of the best i've ever heard.

[Shev]

I have come across these guys more than once, and they always seem to be full of venom. Here is part of their reply in another article, in reaction to Gary presenting UR to them:

"...You Universalists preach grace and then contradict yourselves time and time again by preaching works and self-righteousness. Yet you can do no other because you have never experienced God's salvation by grace. You have experienced doctrine and knowledge, as right as some of it might be, but your thinking and teaching will always end up in error and under judgment because you do not believe. You have been eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with doctrine written outwardly, but the Law of God written in the heart, which can only come from the Tree of Life, you have never known. How then can you speak wisdom and with understanding? You can't. Do we condemn you? No. You are already condemned, and because we tell you so, you treat us as those ignorant of God's ways, and as enemies, even though we speak for your sake. You are full of contradiction, Gary. Your eye is not single. You have an agenda not of God, that being to exalt yourself and not Jesus Christ. Woe to you."

So, here is the list of accusations and invectives towards Gary, and all universalists:

1 - We preach grace and contradict ourselves time and time again.
2 - We have never experienced salvation by grace.
3 - Our thinking and teaching will always end up in error and under judgment because we do not believe.
4 - We have been eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with doctrine written outwardly.
5 - We have never known the Tree of Life.
6 - We cannot speak wisdom and understanding.
7 - We are already condemned.
8 - Our eye is not single.
9 - We have an agenda not of God.
10 - We exalt ourselves and not Christ.
11 - Woe unto us!

This is just one passage I pulled from one article. They do the above article after article. I am not someone that cares to take offense at such things - a shrug and an eye roll are more worthy reactions at this point - but I do believe they are worth steering clear of. If you read enough of their articles, you find that they are the only people on earth that are serving God and Christ correctly.

Their fruit speaks for itself.

[darryl]

as soon as I read 'you are not saved' (directed to Roger) I lost interest in them...it seems a very arrogant thing to say.

[Ross]

"...You Universalists preach grace and then contradict yourselves time and time again by preaching works and self-righteousness.

Au contraire - on the contrary; I.M.O can only appreciate the grace when coming to understand exactly what that grace means and covers. After all, Paul states being saved by grace, not by works. Even points out how Israel try to be saved by works under the law, yet that doesn't work for them so why would it work for us?
I.M.O true universalism is the recognition of the magnitude of what Christ did for us and what His sacrifice covers for ALL mankind.

[marie glen]

That is very eye opening.. those remarks.. I find it is how people 'discuss' when they lack good scriptural arguments.. it gets personal.. we don't know anything about the bible.. if one doesn't bend the knee to their ideas and opinions you're a sinner and have a closed mind.. There's the two i's insults and innuendo.. at which time I say it would be better to stick with scripture.. which suggestion is not all that effective :faint:

:doh: I figure I can tell a group or doctrine by its fruit and behavior..

[jabcat]

"path of truth" has a long, long list - seemingly almost everyone but themselves - that they say are false teachers, not saved, etc.   a couple of them came here in the past and ended up getting banned.  not really someone most true believers, those tasting of Jesus' salvation, can have a meaningful, pleasant, ongoing conversation with.  they find something "wrong" that doesn't fit their particular view, and end up condemning people...i personally wouldn't bother, although sometimes i check out some of their stuff out of interest/curiosity.  even though they come across as harsh and condemning, they themselves believe in some sort of ultimate reconciliation.  :o

Rodger Tutt if a friend of TM ministries and posts his "snippets" here on a regular basis.   :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

andrew, what do you mean by "preachers of the cross"?   IMO, that's what any true believer/preacher must preach.  because it's the cross and resurrection that it all hinges around..the Lamb slain, risen.  "path of [their] truth" condemns literally scores of people who preach the cross.   :(

[Shev]

I think what is notable here is the absence of any of the fruit of the Spirit in their manner. They don't show kindness, humility, temperance, or any love in their responses. The love and patience in Rodger's answers to their provocation, on the other hand, speaks so well of his character, though I have not met him.

Then there is the assumption that someone is not saved as soon as they dare to disagree with them. So they evidently have a gifting that enables them to know the state of someone's heart and spirit after reading a handful of words. This also implies that you cannot be saved until you are perfect, which would seem a little backwards to me.

[jabcat]

Yep Shev.

I'm going to lock this thread, and here's why.  I don't want them showing up again, trying to argue, belittle, condemn.  It would have a very short life, and I'm not sure it would be worth it.  Andrew, if you or anyone else has an absolute pertinent, compelling reason to make another post in this thread, please PM myself or eaglesway and we can add it to the thread.  Otherwise, I just don't want the door open to unnecessary contentiousness and strife. 

Also Andrew, if you can think of a way to continue this discussion without it being a "us vs. them (p.o.t.)" contest - discussing things in a more general concepts sort of way - please also let us know  :thumbsup:.  Blessings.

Romans 12:18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with all men ...

[eaglesway]

This guy would have us believe he is the only true preacher of the gospel I think. Among those he identifies as false apostles are Billy Graham, Smith Wigglesworth( a preacher from the early 1900s who has written some truly wonderful books), Andrew Murray(a minister from the mid 1800s who is one of the greatest Christian writers of all time) , Watchman Nee, David Wilkerson, Charles Spurgeon..... I had run into the site once before and was very unimpressed with the spirit of it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I looked at this guy's list too, and he's way off on several, as you said. This guy has cultish control issues and should be avoided, IMO. I did like his testimony, it was similar in the way the Lord worked with me initially, too. But he has picked up some things along the way and doesn't even realize they are not of His Spirit. Blessings...

[eaglesway]

I liked his testimony and related to some similarities in how the Lord called me too, and along the way I passed through some times when I was close to where he is at. I am very grateful the Lord saw fit to deliver me from that attitude.    I trust and  pray that the Lord will do the same for him at some point.