And like anythingelse, if you have something and are not aware of having it, that is a reduction of awareness, thus a reduction of the reality of having it, thus it really does not add to your reality of having it, if you are not conscious of having it. Because you are not Conscious of having it, does not mean it does not exist in reality, it just means your reality is not based on your consciousness of things, although it may begin with your consciousness of things.
Universal Salvation can be a deep consciousness on one end of thinking, but yet it can be very shallow on another end of thinking. For example, to one who is temporal and hoping to be eternal, Universal Eternity can be a very enthusiastic thought, but there may be one who is already on the other end of Eternity, already living in Eternity, and to them Universal Salvation has nothing to do with them, they are already in eternity, and they never have or ever will need Salvation from anything. So to them personally, it is not the same Consciousness, not the same enigma. One can recall the logic of " When I was a child, I thought as a Child, but when I became an Adult, I think differently." So if a person was never a child in their creation, does that mean they never thought as a Child? Such as Adam. Or certain Angels. Or the 24 Elders God created, they had no childhood, they were created already VASTLY aged, or something that means " Advanced in Wisdom", and responsibility. God created 24 Beings who are older than anyonelse, they are prior in orgin, senior in rank and are pertaining to earlier times with God. Universal Salvation holds no inward personal meaning to these beings, they only consider it as something for humans. But I am sure they take Joy in that for us.
But their Consciousness toward Salvation is Different than ours, as is Gods himself. God does not look at Universal Salvation the same way that we do, God is not human. Salvation is not a personal need of God, it is a personal need of ours. We humans ourselves even view Universal Salvation differently, amoungst our own thinking.
Universal Salvation is a Conscious Awareness, that is not based on that Awareness. Its based on Gods Awareness, and human awareness is not a determining factor in it. If you look closer at Jesus aittitude and feverish dependance on Gods Will, there is something to be learned there, because it is something there. Whenever you see a very powerful being, craving to be in submission to another very powerful being, you have to figure he knows something. He is conscious of something, keenly aware of something. Something is amist.
Look at John 17:25, one of my very favorite scriptures;" O Righteous Father, although the world has not Known thee, yet I have Known thee." You ever wonder what Jesus knows about God? Jesus is Aware of God, many things about him. Jesus is Conscious of God.
The world is not Conscious of Universal Salvation, thankfully the Salvation is not based on their awareness of it. Dying on the tree, Jesus asked God to forgive humanity for killing him, because they didnot know what they were doing. They were conscious men killing him, but they really were unconscious, or unaware of the significance of what they did, and the personage they did it to. And the fruit of that unconscious behavior, still ranks as a curse down through the generations of men who are still not aware of what eternal Consciousness really is.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel
Nice post, good to see you posting again.
Blessings
The world is not Conscious of Universal Salvation, thankfully the Salvation is not based on their awareness of it. Dying on the tree, Jesus asked God to forgive humanity for killing him, because they didnot know what they were doing. They were conscious men killing him, but they really were unconscious, or unaware of the significance of what they did, and the personage they did it to. And the fruit of that unconscious behavior, still ranks as a curse down through the generations of men who are still not aware of what eternal Consciousness really is.
Peace.
[/quote]
Greetings to you also SeekerSA.
In Dealing with the Consciousness of humanity, there are just differing areas of Consciousness that are there, and not there. In dealing with Universal Salvation, the Consciousness is basically not there. Something about Jesus, turned men off from him, when it really shouldnot have been that way. Notice John 1:11;" He came to his own, and those who were his own didnot receive him." Why would men make a Conscious decision to not receive Christ, I mean somethings not right with that. Why did this man, who was true Light, not prick the Consciousness of those who were just not aware of " Certain Things" about him?
Well one reason I believe, is that Jesus was after the " Unconscious Man", looking to appeal to that first, and actually planning to deal with the " Conscious Man", much later. From the first man Adams children, on throughout much of history, God seems to deal mostly with the " Unawareness" of Man, and I mean heavily focusing on the Unconscious man, giving hardly no Spiritual Consciousness.
In John 5:17; " My Father is working until now, and I am working", well just what are they working on? Well I think one thing is the Unconscious Mind of Man. Yes, they have been, are now, and will be working on the mind of Man.
Does a human have to be Conscious of Gods dealings with them? Well it would be nice if we were, but if we were not, does that negate or limit Gods appeal? Does a human have to wait until God calls them, to be molded by God, well I think not. Human history is not a waste of time, God has been doing things to every human being created, all while they were alive, and even after they have died.
You know why, because Consciousness is not a barrier to God working.
Peace.
In you look closer at Genesis 1, where God and Christ are creating, their focus was not first on man. Their doing this and creating that, and bringing this into existence and forming so many, many wonderful things. Except man. But after they are finished with those things, they eventually get to creating humans. A definte pattern of creating in " Stages" AND" departments". Given that they hold the power to create all things in " Complette Instantancy", they don't. Seeming to prefer that things be allowed to Grow.
Even humans Spiritual development has fallen into this exact same pattern. Seemingly ignored now, they are focusing on other things. But is it really ignored?
If a painter paints a scene of a landscape, then you have a landscape. But if the Painter paints himself, painting the landscape, then you have added dimension which can be seen, but was already in reality anyway. You can now see what the painter is doing or has done, but are in a mindset to give him more credit. This is very simular with what God and Christ are doing. Universal Salvation is the result of a discussion that God and Christ had at one time. During this discussion, the future of the Consicousness of humanity was complentated. In Gen.1:26, the statement;" Let us make man in our Image", surely has to do with " Consciousness", amoung whateverelse it has to do with.
As I look at consciousness, some people seem to be aware of " Good and Evil", others don't. Some are aware of right and wrong, day and night, up and down. So I wonder just what Consciousness really is. And what has it to do with Universal Salvation?
Peace.
The world seems not to really care about God much, not the world as a whole. There is a significant number of people who are curious about God, and as the numbers grow smaller in that group, you find more serious belief. Curiousity is a reflection of Consiciousness. The person is taking thought of something. Beginning to figure and find something to understand. I often wonder why God created man with such a hughe hole in him. Such a giant missing link in our nature. So many mislead desires in our understanding. I really am beginning to believe that not only is our Spiritual understanding limited, but so is just our mere Conciousness.
To stand and reach out to God and desire so much from him, we are just empty beings. It makes Jesus statement, " My Grace is sufficent for you, my power is perfected in weakness", such an egnimatic projection. There is power in Consciousness, and Jesus suggest that his Power, which is directly tied into Consciousness, is made perfect in weakness. Progressing further from that, the actual weakening of our Consciousness, will lead to being introduced to the actual Power of Christ.
Every time we suffer, it is a " Weakening of our Consciousness." The more we suffer, in a sense, the more we could, could, come to see what consciousness has to do with eternity. Seems strange to me, to be pushed away from Power, in order to understand Power. To have power manipulate your Consciousness, so that you can know it will never be the other way around.
Peace.
Wow Mickiel! Awesome posts. I love what all God is revealing and working in you and how you came to share it with us is so sweet. Thanks so much. Saving these posts.
kept :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Kept on January 06, 2008, 02:57:30 AM
Wow Mickiel! Awesome posts. I love what all God is revealing and working in you and how you came to share it with us is so sweet. Thanks so much. Saving these posts.
kept :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Well hello,
Universal Salvation is a Conscious Awareness, yet its not based on how we think. You know God can very easily manipulate the Consciousness of a human being, and I think he does it more than we are aware of. In Isaiah 49:5, God forms people from the womb to be his servant, well what about the rest of the people who do not believe in God, well they were formed not to. Either God is racist at the womb, or he controls each and every birth, even in its prenatal state. The prenatal state, most likely the beginning of Consciousness, is the " Prime Place" for God to plant belief and behavior into a human being, because their first 5 years will be of utmost importance in their Consciousness.
Now if God intends on giving all of humanity Eternal Life, then why should he wait until they live their entire human lives, die and be ressurected, and then start dealing with them about their future? Here we have a being that can deal with a person even before they are born, he can " Form" anything within them while they are yet still in the womb, and that word " Form", can mean so much in conotation, or teaching implications along the lines of life long influence, then he need not wait for a " Birth", or a second Birth, to begin teaching them. And I don't think he is doing that. Hes teaching them each and everyday of their lives, all of us. The level of teaching, as with the level of awareness, changes or is manipluated by Consciousness.
I am even beginning to believe that Spirituality is a Consciousness of its own, not merely another level, but an entirely differing level. Mental retardation is a level of Consciousness, its just different. Being dead is a different level of Consciousness, one could say its just " Nothing", or no thinking at all. But if that dead thing has a future life with God, then we just cannot say they have no Consciousness, we can only call it " Sleep."
If we are not aware of something, it does not mean we will never be aware of it, our Consciousness just sleeps in that area. But if God wills that we learn in our Sleep, then we will. Those who are not aware of Universal Salvation, are only Sleep, and thats the ONLY reason they cannot see it. When God wraps a Consciousness around a message, that mind will wholeheartedly embrace the message, and if not wholeheartedly, then at whatever grow level God deems it to do.
So the thinking of humanity is not important to the relevancy of Universalism, nor their belief. Eternity does not gain relevance and Power from the acceptance of it, thats like saying reality itself gains in realness as we accept it. Universalism in Eternity is not based on the awareness of it. Eternity is established by itself, not our belief in its consistancy. Eternity didnot begin, it began everythingelse that exist. From eternity came Time. From eternity came Human Consciousness. So the fate of human Consciousness, is based on from whence it came. God is Eternity, thus God is also Fate, thus he is our beginning and our Ending.
Thus God is Consciousness.
Peace.
To examine yourself is a good habit to have from time to time. You ever wonder why you believe in Universal Salvation, why you are Conscious of it? You think maybe you were manipulated by God into it? How and why did God do it? Whatever those answers are, I tend to think of it as " Positional", and our era of Birth, or the times we were born into. During these times, God wanted a certain amount of people to be opened to the truth. And those opened, fill two things; 1.Position, God wanted a certain kind of human to be in a position, so its a filling of a Spiritual Space that God wanted covered. 2. You just happen to be born into this era, so really you are born into the Position. Because it was decided before you were born, it is then not a Conscious decision on your part. But along with position and era, or this space of time, God wants the position filled with a certain " Type, or kind of Characther". So this is what he " Worked on " before you were born even. Manipulating your genectic make up, your comming environment, your family, your parents, your friends, your career, all the things that " Influence" you, have been manipulated to " Mold you", to the calling of God. This is one of the areas that the " Father is Working", both before, during, and after even your birth. And all these things has helped in forming your Consciousness.
Look at 1Corinth. 14:22;"So then tounges are for a sign, not to those who believe, but for unbelievers. But Prophecy IS for a Sign, NOT to unbelievers, but to Believers.". Prophecy is a declaration of events to come, but the events were not designed by the prophet, they were designed by God, inspired by God. Even the Prophet was inspired by God. Universal Salvation is a Prophecy, and the greatest one, that I have read. If you place those two things together, Conscious Awareness, and Prophecy, then knowing that God inspires one to even hold belief in him, can you see how God controls all the integral events that bear pertinence in Life. The foretelling of the Salvation of all, is a unique opening of the Consciousness, and that opens the Heart.
Not being aware of Universal Salvation, is a sleep. 1Corinth. 15:20. Look at verse 23;" But each in his own order." Universal Salvation is " Positional and Environmental". The positions are made less numerical by vs. 22, its All, but moreso environmental, or the era you are born in, each in his own " Order", or literally the time you became conscious into. If you throughly examine the history of humanity, and think about what you really believe in, then the calling of God is mostly environmental, and lightly positional, because all the positions will be filled. There really is not much evidence in Gods calling being based on human individual characther, or you can say consciousness, nor on the level of righteousness in the human, its moreso that we " Inherited Salvation", as one would inherit an environment, and just was born into it.
So human Consciousness has a " Staged effect" which was preconceived by God and Christ, in their board meeting.
Peace.
People were called by God , based on the hisrorical environment on earth, as it relates to Gods plan. They were called based on certain geographics in Gods mind that related to specfic areas on earth. Isreal was called as an example of human nature, but even their calling was environmental and geographic. And even those called during the last days and times, will be called based on their geographic positioning on earth, because God wants to show he has drawn from every area on earth. So the opening of human consicousness to universal salvation, or the calling of God, is moreso based on geographics, than it is on personal characther.
Secondly, I think God is more interested in filling these positions with certain " Characthers", and then he will work on those characthers. NOT righteous characthers, well maybe just a few, but mostly the calling of God will choose from a rainbow coalition of sinners. God wants to be sure he calls enough examples from every area of sin possible. To show that his grace will covert anything. And this is the real reason no one can boast in their calling, but most called just don't know this. They were not called because they were righteous, but because they were sinners who lived in certain areas, and held certain characther flaws and were born during a certain time.
Who knows Gods quota, he may want 1,000 drunkards, 5,000 liars, 500 theifs and 700 lust filled people. He may want 2,000 from America, 5,000 from the middle east, perhaps only 2 from China, and 30 from Canada, and 10,000 from France, I don't know, but this thing is going along these lines. People are not called because they are wise, or Spiritually Conscious, or hold some kind of Golden Characther or have " Good Hearts." Once the decision has been made to choose them to fill the position, God releases his Spirit to begin to " Work on them", work on their environment, work on the influences all during their lives, and those environments, will include others around them being adjusted to accomplish Gods will.
So being brought to Spiritual Consciousness, is not a matter of Pride, in fact the individual had absolutely nothing to do with it. This is why Pride is so dangerous to the Consciousness of God. Because its a natural human reaction to having anything elevated from within. Their going to think;" Well God called me because" I", or God choose me because of something " I". No, Spiritual consciousness is moreso positional and geographical, and will ultimately cover every single person on earth.
Peace.
Once a baby is born, it knows nothing, but it knows its alive. Consciousness of God is the same. Once God pricks a mind, the mind knows it has been pricked, it knows nothingelse about God. It may have " Prior Knowledge" " Concerning God", but that knowledge may or may not have been influenced by God.
But now relate to this: once a baby really, really begins to understand that they have life, I mean really understand it, oh my goodness, that baby is going to run wild with their life, I mean just fully enjoying it. Running around and testing their legs and arms, and pushing their vocal chords to the limit. As it becomes more aware of their life, it will function according to that awareness. Spiritual awareness is no different. Once a human mind is aware that God is dealing with them, oh my goodness, the things we then start thinking and doing. Oh how we start testing God then. And this is a " Major Class" in Gods school of annointing. Oh how he has to deal with that in his people.
Becomming Conscious is a challange in Life. Here we have this mind, what are we to do with it? Then we see this BOLD statement in scripture;" Let this Mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus", oh well, thats what to do with it. Sounds simple, right? I don't think so, one just can't finger snap the mind of Christ into themselves. What that scripture means is to share Consciousness AS Christ does. Jesus constantly pointed to and desired God. Complette total devotion, that IS his consciousness. That verse would be better rendered let this mind be in you that IS IN Jesus. Not was, is! Jesus IS submissive to God, not was. Jesus IS right now thinking about his Father, and thats VERY easy to speculate on, because we can know how Jesus IS through Scripture. Because things were times past, we tend to think " Was", but God IS! Whatever things Jesus displayed in his thinking IS, now IS, not was.
And that is an integral part of Consciousness, if you hold consciousness, you are IS, not was. Your thinking IS now online.
Peace.
In life as we know it and have seen it, human nature has just run wild with its life. I have been conscious for 52 years, and that is all that I have ever seen, and each year it gets worse. Sometimes I wonder about that. How has humanity continued to survive, although it constantly gets worse? Were there ever years of humanity improving? The technology improved, the science improved, but did humanitys Spirituality improve? I personally don't think humanity was ever given Concious constant Spiritual improvement by God. Look at 2 Thess. 1:5;" This is a " Plain Indication" of Gods righteous Judgement so that you may be considered worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering." Suffering is a " Plain Indication" that God has already passed a judgement for entrance into his Kingdom.
The world is suffering because God has passed his judgement upon us to suffer, and this weather one is called of God or not. The suffering will pass humanity into being worthy, because they will have suffered greatly. Its only just of God to repay suffering with joy.
Consider this, concerning Gods Judgements; If all of humanity was placed into suffering from its conception, what then should be Gods reaction to the suffering, and remember, the greatest form of suffering, is to be apart from God. For men to be placed apart from God is an unintentional neglect of Salvation. Its not then correct to judge them based on their awareness. Because Salvation is a Conscious awareness, and its not based on that awareness.
Peace.
Let me say a little bit about Consciousness and Sin. Once we are aware of Sin, then we are mentaliy involved with it. I believe it has always been with us, and within. Its not what goes into the man that defiles him, its what " Comes out of him", and that defiling thing comming out is sin. We can think about sinful things without sinning. Evil can cross over into our thoughts, without commiting the evil ourselves. The sin is there, or our conscious awareness of sin is in place in our minds. If we take the thought and turn it into purposeful action, then we sin. If we take the thought, and mentally give the thought action, even if its just mental action, then we sin within our own minds.
In James 1:14;" But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by their own lust". Here its still a mental thing, purely conscious thinking, or the being " Carried Away", this is all purely mental at this stage. Enticed by their OWN Lust, or interested in something, and its purely by your own intrest, no outside influence to place blame on.
Then in vs. 15, the thought, or the consciousness that is aware, begins to want to take action, and that action comming out of you is what really defiles you. " Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin", the thought has went up, it has taken root, and now looks to grow outside of you, no longer inner.
For example, one could be at work and see something on a shelf. Weeks pass by and its still there. The mind wants and desires whats on that shelf. So the consciousness begins to rationalize taking it. In fact, theres plently of them there on the shelf. No one wants it. Its out of place. Its not being used, it won't be missed. You could put it to use. You are tempted and carried away by your own desire to have it, then once you have convinced yourself to take it, you just take it. And I will use myself as an example, just in case others have never done this. Everytime I have done this, it always goes like that. I give " Myself" all the reasons to take whatever it is I took. Its been some good reasons I have come up with too.
I took the air refreshner because we had cases of it. I took the mop handle because we had 20 new ones. I took some new rags, hey, because its just a couple of rags, that means nothing! Its just a rag. When sin involves itself with consciousness, the things we rationalize can get very deep. Notice Job 15:35;" They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity, and their mind " Prepares" deception." I like the way this is stated, their mind prepares deception. Ooh, thats a book right there to those who love to write, " The Mind preparing deception." Right there is the Consciousness of Sin.
And this consciousness can grow. Look at Pslams 7: 12 and 14; " If a man does not repent, he will sharpen his sword, bend his bow," prepare himself for more sin is what this means. Vs. 14, " He conceives mischief", or takes more conscious thought toward active sin.
Notice Isaiah 59:4, " They conceive Mischief and " Bring Forth" Iniquity. When lust has conceived it brings forth the sin being done itself. Once I conceived enough evidence within my own mind, I simply took the Air Refreshner home with me.
Rom. 5:12 even touches on this. Death spread to all men through sin. HOW? Through the Consciousness of all men, the poision spread .
Peace.
I am often amazed at how humans group themselves off, and claim God for themselves. One thing that mentality does is limit God. Let me give a mathmatical problem:
God creates 600billion humans
God ignores 599.99 billion of them
God calls 000.99 of them
---------------------------------------------------
Then waits until the Kingdom to work out other things in the rest of them.
I see some flaws in this equation. I think there are spaces of truth in it, but I have learned, or am learning to expect more from God, because we get it. God is now working in humanity, he is not ignoreing them. He is ignoring religion, he is ignoring the lack of faith on earth, he is ignoring the results of sin on earth, he is ignoring pride in people he has called, he is ignoring unbelief. So yes, God does ignore things, but he is doing a Great work on both sides of the Coin of Good and Evil.
Salvation is an awareness, that is not based on human Awareness. In Isaiah 40:5, " Then the Glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it." There comes a time that humanitys eyes will be opened, but humans have more than just physical eyes. God can appeal directly to the human mind, fill it with information, and close that same mind off from it. Just let it set there sealed until he opens it. God designed the Brain, and much of it is not used " By Us", that does not mean he is not using it.
People are already saved, and thats WHY God is already working with them. The annointed just think God is dealing with just them. Because thats how the Annointed like to think. No, no, God is accomplishing things NOW! In all of humanity.
We are not going to take the human experience into Gods Kingdom. When we are changed, the human experience ends, all old things will pass away, ALL things will be new. There exist no experience that we will take with us into the Kingdom of God. What we experience now are Birth Pangs. Imagine a child being in the womb for 9 months. When the child is born, what experience while in the womb, will the child need or relate to in Life? Nothing. Its over, the pre-natal is over and done with.
God is now dealing with the Consciousness of humanity, and when humans are ressurected, God simply opens in them what he is now placing within them, they are not being excluded from his Consciousness.
And this ties into what being a " Witness" really means. Salvation was accomplished before man was made, was radified while Jesus walked this earth, and in the Kingdom it will be only " Glorified". There will be no soul saving in Gods Kingdom. There will be no Salvation work going on, God is NOW working on the human Consciousness.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
I wanted to Show how Salvation is a past plan, a present working, and a future Glorification. And in these three realitys, is born the Consciousness of Man.
Salvation got done in Gods mind, then Christ set about " Doing" what God set as a done deal. Now its in the " Human working Phase", or humans are being worked on now. In the Kingdom of God, Salvation is ONLY going to be Glorified, it will be over, complettely over.
In Rev.21:4, " The First Things Have Passed AWAY!" Salvation is one of the first things. Sin is one of the first things. The CALLING of God is one of the first things. Pain and suffering are one of the First things. Baptism, Conversion, human Spiritual Growth, Human Spiritual Learning, ALL these things are " First Things", and they will pass away. None of these things will exist in the Kingdom of God.
God is right now dealing with the " First Things". So I think being " In Christ", needs to be rethought out. 2Corinth. 5:17;" Therefore if any man is " In Christ", he is a " New Creature", the Old things have PASSED AWAY, and new things have come." There must exist a duality in the meaning behind this scripture, because far too many people " In Christ", are still hampered by " Old Things". There is no complette passing away. So I think there is room for more understanding here. More grace, more patience, more longsuffering, before we can say Old things have passed away.
So I think Consciousness has a lot to do with this. Thinking. Mindframe, or belief. Did you know that a certain way of thinking can actually " Pass Away" from you? Oh yes, it certainly can.
Peace.
In Revelations 22:3; " There shall no longer be any Curse." Right there is the end of sinful consciousness. God will put an absolute end to all curses, which also means the " Residue" of all curses, the " Effects" from all curses, and the accumulated mental handicaps derived from all types of curses. Do you realize the Giant Blessing that will be issued here? Do you know what this means?
If you jump into a puddle of Mud, nice sticky gooie mud and get it all on you. Then you go into the shower and rinse it off. You can literally see it running off of you, and going into the drain. Well God is going to do FAR greater than this. Hes going to actually cleasne our entire being, espically our minds, our consciousness. Oh man, talk about a righteous bath, God is going to wipe away far much more than our tears.
Every mental block that we have will be destroyed and dissolved. Oh man, I can't wait for that, my mind is a hotbed of the residue of curses. I get tired of my own mind sometimes, the thoughts that go through it.
But Salvation is so much more than we know, because we have this little " Mini Know it all aittitude", we tend to place knowledge of things within parameters, when they are really endless, or just " More to it."
Let me show you somethingelse about Consciousness that we do not know. In John 17:19, Jesus states something that is of intrest. " And for their sakes I Sanctify Myself." Do you know what Jesus meant by this? What has this to do with the future of human Consciousness?
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel
There will be no soul saving in Gods Kingdom. There will be no Salvation work going on, God is NOW working on the human Consciousness.
Hi Mickiel,
I was wondering about what you said about, "no salvation work in the kingdom".
What about these verses? Would you mind telling me when you think this will happen?
(Isaiah 25:7) And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
(Isaiah 11:11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left.
(Isaiah 13:9) Speaks of the day of the Lord and how he will destroy the sinners and punish the world for their evil in verse 11. Then in verse 12 he says "I will make a man more precious than fine gold.
(Isaiah 45:23) what about every knee bowing and tongue confessing?
(Joel 2:32) says, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. This talks about the day of the Lord.
The Old Testament is full of scriptures about people and nations coming before the Lord worshiping and repenting when Christ comes back. It also says God will teach the world.
CHB
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Quote from: CHB on January 08, 2008, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: Mickiel
There will be no soul saving in Gods Kingdom. There will be no Salvation work going on, God is NOW working on the human Consciousness.
Hi Mickiel,
I was wondering about what you said about, "no salvation work in the kingdom".
What about these verses? Would you mind telling me when you think this will happen?
(Isaiah 25:7) And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
(Isaiah 11:11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left.
(Isaiah 13:9) Speaks of the day of the Lord and how he will destroy the sinners and punish the world for their evil in verse 11. Then in verse 12 he says "I will make a man more precious than fine gold.
(Isaiah 45:23) what about every knee bowing and tongue confessing?
(Joel 2:32) says, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. This talks about the day of the Lord.
The Old Testament is full of scriptures about people and nations coming before the Lord worshiping and repenting when Christ comes back. It also says God will teach the world.
CHB
Greetings,
Well in each of the examples you listed, it speaks of God doing those things " In the Day of the Lord". The Day of the Lord starts as a precessor to Gods Kingdom, or it " Ushers it in." Look closer at Isaiah 11:11, " Then " It will happen on that Day". This is percision prophecy, these events will happen that Day. Or any of the verses you listed, the " Day of the Lord", is a Day, not a period of Time. It all will happen within that Day, at least that is how I understand it.
But I have a question of you. What is it that you want to extend into the Kingdom of God? What is it, and Why, that you see will continue in Gods Kingdom, that exist now? I am curious to understand you also. Are you believing that people will need to be saved " During Gods Rein in his Kingdom?" Can you explain why you believe this, if you do?
Peace.
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Quote from: Mickiel on January 08, 2008, 12:43:16 AM
Greetings,
Well in each of the examples you listed, it speaks of God doing those things " In the Day of the Lord". The Day of the Lord starts as a precessor to Gods Kingdom, or it " Ushers it in." Look closer at Isaiah 11:11, " Then " It will happen on that Day". This is percision prophecy, these events will happen that Day. Or any of the verses you listed, the " Day of the Lord", is a Day, not a period of Time. It all will happen within that Day, at least that is how I understand it.
But I have a question of you. What is it that you want to extend into the Kingdom of God? What is it, and Why, that you see will continue in Gods Kingdom, that exist now? I am curious to understand you also. Are you believing that people will need to be saved " During Gods Rein in his Kingdom?" Can you explain why you believe this, if you do?
Peace.
Hi Mickiel,
My understanding of the kingdom of God is, the thousand year reign of Christ. After this KINGDOM period is when Christ will turn over everything to the Father (1Cor. 15:24) "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the KINGDOM TO GOD EVEN THE FATHER when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power". This KINGDOM PHASE {thousand years} is a time when Christ will teach the nations. This is the time when He puts down all power, authority, and rule.
After everything is subdued to Christ there will not be any more salvation because all will be in God (1Cor. 15:28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
At this time not all are in God, so, won't it be a continuing thing until Christ has put down all power, rule and authority? I know this has been done spiritually but death still has to be destroyed, Satan still has to be dealt with.
If you see this differently, please explain.
CHB
Quote from: CHB
Hi Mickiel,
My understanding of the kingdom of God is, the thousand year reign of Christ. After this KINGDOM period is when Christ will turn over everything to the Father (1Cor. 15:24) "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the KINGDOM TO GOD EVEN THE FATHER when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power". This KINGDOM PHASE {thousand years} is a time when Christ will teach the nations. This is the time when He puts down all power, authority, and rule.
After everything is subdued to Christ there will not be any more salvation because all will be in God (1Cor. 15:28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
At this time not all are in God, so, won't it be a continuing thing until Christ has put down all power, rule and authority? I know this has been done spiritually but death still has to be destroyed, Satan still has to be dealt with.
If you see this differently, please explain.
CHB
Well yes, I do see it differently. This 1,000 year period, I don't see that as others do. One day with God is as a thousand years with a human, I see that as symbolism, not exact measurement. All this is explained in Rev.20: 4-7. Let me ask you something. What sense would it make, for Jesus, a Spirit being, and his saints, now Spirit beings, to rule over men of flesh for 1000 years? Keep satan locked up for 1000 years, then free him, then begin all this mess all over again? What sense does that really make?
What John saw seemed like a 1000 years to him, because he is not eternal. One day with God, seems like 1000 years, and I think that is the key. I think these events last just one day, and thats it. One of Gods days, not the 1000 year human concept of Gods day. It seemed like a thousand years to John.
So I think the interpitation is how one views the 1000 years. I tend to look at it like God does, hardly no time at all. But a little space of time. Enough time for God to do the other things that he wants done during this period, with no interference from satan, which is why satan is imprisioned. I think those who fanticise on ruling, well they desire that time to be a long 1000 year period, so their rule can last that long. So they can be in power longer.
But I think the key is within the Phrase, " In that Day". All these things will happen within that day.
Peace.
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Concerning these 1000 years of ruling with Christ beliefs, if you look closer at the flow of Revelations, you will see some patterns that don't add up to me.
For example, In Rev. 17:12, Authority is given for One Hour. In 18:8, Plagues will come in One Day. In 18:10, Judgement comes in One Hour. In 18:17, Babylon is destroyed in One Hour. In 18:19, the One Hour destruction is repeated. In Chapter 19 is the return of Christ. Everything that occurs between chapters 17-19, happens in only One hour or just One Day.
So explain to me why the shift from the urgency of One Hour or One Day, to now 1000 years in Chapter 20? And why that 1000 years couldnot be symbolic of One day, and keep with the flow of events already occured?
Just curious?
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on January 08, 2008, 01:37:48 AM
Well yes, I do see it differently. This 1,000 year period, I don't see that as others do. One day with God is as a thousand years with a human, I see that as symbolism, not exact measurement. All this is explained in Rev.20: 4-7. Let me ask you something. What sense would it make, for Jesus, a Spirit being, and his saints, now Spirit beings, to rule over men of flesh for 1000 years? Keep satan locked up for 1000 years, then free him, then begin all this mess all over again? What sense does that really make?
My understanding of the 1000 year reign is that there will be humans still on earth. In. (Hab. 2:14) speaks about the earth being filled with the knowledge of the Lord. (Mica 4) talks about many nations going up to the mountain of the Lord to worship him and they will beat their swords into pruninghooks and learn war no more.
(Isaiah 66:22-23) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME.
(Isaiah 11:6-11) the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. In verse 11 it speaks of the Lord shall set his hand again THE SECOND TIME TO RECOVER THE REMNANT OF HIS PEOPLE.
(Isaiah 2) Says that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established and exalted above the hills and all nations shall flow into it. And many people shall go up to the house of the Lord and He will teach them of his ways. I can't find it right now but it also says, a man shall live to be a hundred years old.
I don't think all of this can happen in a day.
Quote from: Mickiel
What John saw seemed like a 1000 years to him, because he is not eternal. One day with God, seems like 1000 years, and I think that is the key. I think these events last just one day, and thats it. One of Gods days, not the 1000 year human concept of Gods day. It seemed like a thousand years to John.
So I think the interpitation is how one views the 1000 years. I tend to look at it like God does, hardly no time at all. But a little space of time. Enough time for God to do the other things that he wants done during this period, with no interference from satan, which is why satan is imprisioned. I think those who fanticise on ruling, well they desire that time to be a long 1000 year period, so their rule can last that long. So they can be in power longer.
But I think the key is within the Phrase, " In that Day". All these things will happen within that day. Peace.
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I don't know about this, it doesn't say that it seemed like a 1000 years to John. In Psalms 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past. It seems to me that to God a thousand years are short, {as a day}.. but to John it is still a thousand years.
CHB
Quote from: Mickiel on January 08, 2008, 06:17:18 AM
Concerning these 1000 years of ruling with Christ beliefs, if you look closer at the flow of Revelations, you will see some patterns that don't add up to me.
For example, In Rev. 17:12, Authority is given for One Hour. In 18:8, Plagues will come in One Day. In 18:10, Judgement comes in One Hour. In 18:17, Babylon is destroyed in One Hour. In 18:19, the One Hour destruction is repeated. In Chapter 19 is the return of Christ. Everything that occurs between chapters 17-19, happens in only One hour or just One Day.
So explain to me why the shift from the urgency of One Hour or One Day, to now 1000 years in Chapter 20? And why that 1000 years couldnot be symbolic of One day, and keep with the flow of events already occured?
Just curious?
Peace.
All of these things could happen in one day. All through the OT it speaks about the Lord's day and about all the things that is suppose to happen within it, cannot happen in one day. God teaching the world, one living to be a hundred, all things becoming peaceful with each other and so forth.
CHB
Quote from: CHB
All of these things could happen in one day. All through the OT it speaks about the Lord's day and about all the things that is suppose to happen within it, cannot happen in one day. God teaching the world, one living to be a hundred, all things becoming peaceful with each other and so forth.
CHB
Well I think you tend to believe that there will be flesh and blood in Gods Kingdom, and that his Kingdom will be on a human time table, as far as what a day is.
And I understand that. I tend to believe differently.
Nevertheless, Peace.
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Quote from: Mickiel on January 08, 2008, 07:28:25 PM
Quote from: CHB
All of these things could happen in one day. All through the OT it speaks about the Lord's day and about all the things that is suppose to happen within it, cannot happen in one day. God teaching the world, one living to be a hundred, all things becoming peaceful with each other and so forth.
CHB
Well I think you tend to believe that there will be flesh and blood in Gods Kingdom, and that his Kingdom will be on a human time table, as far as what a day is.
And I understand that. I tend to believe differently.
Nevertheless, Peace.
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No, I don't believe flesh and blood will be in the kingdom. I do think that flesh and blood will be on earth at the same time that the kingdom will be here. I think the kingdom will only have spiritual beings in it. I don't think the kingdom will involve the whole earth during the millennium.
Now, I have wondered if all of these things haven't already happened. Am not sure of this though. I am not sure if the 1000 years is a literal 1000 years. It could be shorter but I think it was more than a day.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 08, 2008, 11:53:12 PM
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No, I don't believe flesh and blood will be in the kingdom. I do think that flesh and blood will be on earth at the same time that the kingdom will be here. I think the kingdom will only have spiritual beings in it. I don't think the kingdom will involve the whole earth during the millennium.
Now, I have wondered if all of these things haven't already happened. Am not sure of this though. I am not sure if the 1000 years is a literal 1000 years. It could be shorter but I think it was more than a day.
CHB
Well now this is certainly interesting. You don't think flesh and blood will be in the Kingdom, but you do think flesh and blood will be on earth at the same time the Kingdom is here. Am I correct in assuming that you kind of mean like flesh and blood will be on the east side, then perhaps the Spirit beings will be on the west side? On the same planet, but seperate living spaces, is this correct?
Peace.
This article will explain what I am doing a poor job of. Please let me know what you think and how you see things happening?
Just Who Are You
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess042.htm
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2008, 01:52:58 AM
This article will explain what I am doing a poor job of. Please let me know what you think and how you see things happening?
Just Who Are You
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess042.htm
CHB
Well I read the article, and I think it places too much emphisis on humans role in Gods Kingdom, and in his Family. It magnifys too many things about humans. But thats just one of the things I saw, I saw many other things I didnot agree with. But that is not my concern, I am more concerned with this; If you are believing something, and you cannot properly explain it, then you need to fix that by your own study, not by what someonelse has wrote. You need to get your own understanding and beliefs more grounded between you and God, not between you and some article you read.
That being said, why should God mix Light with Darkness in his Kingdom? Why should he allow human flesh to continue for 1000 years, after the return of Christ? Must Christ now, in the Kingdom, defeat flesh even yet again? Why are you believing this?
Peace.
Quote from: MICKIELThat being said, why should God mix Light with Darkness in his Kingdom?
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all
these things.
Concordant OT Ecc 1:13 "It is an experience of evil Elohin [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."
My guess is He does it for your benefit.
Mickiel,
I do not take one man's word for anything. I try to read all I can from different sources about a subject and ask God to show me what is right. I do think Ernest Martin is right on a lot of subjects. I think Gary Armulet... I know I didn't spell that last name right...is right on a lot of things, and so are a lot of other people. I was just trying to get your opinion on this subject, since you brought up the view that there would be no soul saving in God's kingdom. That is why I post on these forums, to learn and to give what I have learned. A little here and a little there.
Pierac,
What is your opinion on this?
How do you picture the 1000 year reign? Is it a thousand years? Will there be people that will be saved during this 1000 years?
Will there be humans on earth when Christ sets up his kingdom?
Here is another article that explains what I am talking about.
CHB
Adulterers, Thieves, Liars, Whoremongers,
Blasphemers and Murderers,
WILL NOT BE in the Kingdom of God
Listen to the Byte Show Interview on this article:
ABC's of the Gospel Part 3 - Listen • Download • MP3
More Byte Show Interviews...
Though all mankind are destined to be finally saved and become members of the Family of God, the vast number of people who have ever lived will not achieve this glorious state until what Paul calls the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times (Ephesians 1:10). Recall that Paul said that salvation was to be given to mankind at particular seasons of time. (See page 30 of this book for details.) Those periods are described by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Those periods are important in knowing the times of salvation. Paul gives us the excellent teaching on this.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man [one] in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [Greek has singular]; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [his Second Advent]. Then cometh the end [Greek: the telos], when he [Christ] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father."
1 Corinthians 15:22–23
Paul mentions three time periods in which there will be resurrections to spiritual life. The first was at the time of Christ's own resurrection, the second is when all the righteous who have lived during this age (up to the Second Advent) will be resurrected to experience the thousand year reign of Christ in his Kingdom on earth called the Millennium (or the Jews called it "the Age to Come"). Then, after the Millennium (or the Age to Come) is over, Christ will hand all the government and power over to the Father. The Kingdom phase of Christ's rule will have ended (verses 25–28). Then will come what Paul called in Greek the telos (the end). This third (and last) period for resurrection is the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times which occurs after the Kingdom phase is over. This is when the third and final resurrection to spiritual life occurs. This is when the vast majority of people who have lived on earth will obtain their predestined salvation, which has been guaranteed to them in Christ.
But note this. Only those whom God considers worthy during this age will have the blessing (and reward) of being resurrected at the Second Advent of Christ. They will inherit the Kingdom phase of salvation which occurs a little over a thousand years before the vast majority of mankind receive their salvations. If we want to inherit our salvation and to experience the Age to Come (or the Millennium) then Paul warns all people they ought to be refraining from evil.
"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
Ephesians 5:5
All of the warnings given by Christ and the apostles about punishment, perishing, not making it, undergoing judgments, and not inheriting the promises, have to do with this matter of not inheriting the Age to Come or the Millennium. It simply means that unless people express civility and good in their demeanor in this time of existence (or if they know nothing about the Kingdom phase with Christ ruling on earth for a thousand years in glory), then such persons will not be resurrected at the Second Advent of Christ to experience the Kingdom phase of salvation. They will have to wait until the telos (which is the time of the very end at the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times) before gaining their resurrections and their salvations, which all mankind are promised by God the Father and Christ. God expects his people to show good conduct here and now or they may not gain the reward of experiencing the Kingdom, which begins with Christ's Second Advent and lasts for the Millennium.
Look at an example of this particular warning recorded in Paul's writings. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:10–15 that all who know the truth at this time should be building our spiritual houses with good works and by practicing proper doctrines of Christ. If we do not (deliberately so), then even the good works that we do may be in danger of being burnt up in judgment. Paul said,
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself will be saved; yet so as by fire."
1 Corinthians 3:15
Paul meant that the wicked persons would not be brought up at Christ's Second Advent to inherit the Kingdom phase of salvation (which the Jews called "the Age to Come"). This means the wicked persons would suffer loss, but they would still be saved. Their salvation will only come to them after the Kingdom phase is over and they would miss out on living and ruling with Christ and the other resurrected saints (as a reward) during that period of a thousand years.
Paul gave another illustration of this principle of judgment on the evildoers. He chastised a Christian man who was living with his father's wife in an incestuous union. Paul said (unless the man would repent of his ways),
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh [in this life], that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
1 Corinthians 5:5
So, if people know the truths of God and still in a deliberate manner continue as always in their adulteries, whoremongerings, thievery, murdering, blaspheming, etc. during this life, these people can be judged by God now for their wicked ways (1 Timothy 5:24), and they certainly will not be resurrected at Christ's Second Advent to experience with the rest of the saints of God the Kingdom phase of salvation (the Age to Come) called the Millennium. They will have to wait until a time period called the telos, which occurs after the Kingdom phase is over to receive the full knowledge of the truth of God and the salvation, which all people are promised in Christ from before the foundation of the world. This lack of reward is a punishment for their sins. They will not experience the Kingdom phase of salvation, which is to rule with Christ during the Millennium (the Age to Come).
In no case, however, will people burn in a hell fire forever as a punishment for sins. After all, mankind has been created mortal. We do not have an immortality associated with us yet. The doctrine of the so-called Immortality of the Soul (or Spirit of man) is an alien teaching to those found in the Bible. The only one possessing immortality, who has ever lived on earth, is Christ Jesus. Paul said, "Who only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). All other people who have died from the time of Adam and Eve and down to our own day are NOT living in heaven, purgatory, limbo or some kind of hell devised by the pagans of the ancient world. They are all dead in their graves and awaiting their resurrections from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:35–56). Of all those since Adam who have died, only one person has attained a spiritual life to immortality. That person is our Elder Brother, Christ Jesus. "Who only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16).
It can easily be proved that the punishment for sins is not everlasting life in a hell fire burning forever. The English words "forever, everlasting or eternity" are principally from the Hebrew word olam or from the Greek words aeon or aeonian. These words of themselves never mean "forever." The words signify an undefined time period that has a beginning and an end to it. The shortest time period for olam (which some foolishly translate "forever") in the Old Testament lasted only three days when Jonah was in the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:6). Really, the words olam, aeon and aeonian refer to indefinite time periods either long or short. Good translators of the Bible usually denote them as "age" or the adjective could be "age-lasting." The words themselves do not mean "forever." They certainly do not signify that the punishments mentioned in the Bible for sins last forever.
There is a prime example to show that the punishment for sins is not "forever." Indeed, it is the standard example that we should all pay attention to. That example is the one given by Christ Jesus himself when he performed his mission for mankind on earth. Note this. When Christ died on the tree of crucifixion for all mankind, he took upon himself all the sins of the world (even the most heinous) and suffered the punishment for those sins — for all the sins of the world. But Christ did not go to a hell fire and burn forever to pay the punishment for those sins. Had the wages of sin been to endure a hell fire forever as so many preachers, evangelists and priests state, then for Christ to have paid that penalty for the world's sins, he would have to be in that hell fire right now and burning for the rest of eternity.
The truth is, Christ was out of his grave three days later and went to heaven and is now in a glorious relationship with the Father (reigning there in our place until our resurrections from the dead). The Bible shows in no uncertain terms that the wages of sin happens to be death, not eternal life in hell fire or anywhere else (Romans 6:23). And that is what Christ did for us, and for all the human race. He died for them and paid for all their sins perfectly and completely. For more information on this vital subject concerning the punishments for sins, see my book 101 Bible Secrets that Christians Do Not Know.
It is time that people today abandon the absurd teachings of many of the preachers, evangelists and priests who claim to be teaching the Gospel of Christ to the world. The vast majority of them are as far off from teaching the truth of the Gospel as they can get. What they need to do, is to change their ways. They need to begin to teach the real truths of the Bible. Those truths start out with the fact that the Gospel of Christ is a teaching which shows all mankind how they GOT saved in Christ before the foundation of the world, not what they have to do to GET saved. It was Christ Jesus who did the works that GOT mankind saved.
Mankind also ought to be told that if they wish to experience their resurrections from the dead at the Second Advent of Christ in order to inherit the Kingdom phase of salvation, then they ought to be living like the members of the Family of God that they are and not in a barbaric and uncivilized manner that is unbecoming to the children of God. This is what Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the other apostles taught.
And though it is clear that all mankind will not inherit the Kingdom of God at the Second Advent of Christ, all mankind will without fail be saved in Christ. This truth is as certain as the rising of tomorrow's sun. This promise is backed up by the express commands of God the Father and Christ Jesus made to mankind before the foundation of the world. There is not the slightest doubt that all mankind will be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. The apostle Paul made it clear when salvation was granted to us.
"Who [God] hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
2 Timothy 1:9
Remember, the true message of the Gospel is not what man has to do to be saved, but it is the teaching of what Christ Jesus did for all mankind that GOT them saved! Preachers, evangelists and priests need to start teaching the truth and telling the world how all mankind GOT saved in Christ Jesus. Ernest L Martin
If I may.
Tradition teaches from Adam to Noah was 2000 years, from Noah to Jesus was 2000 years, from Jesus to now is 2000 years = 6000 years aka the creation complete 6th day et al then we have the 2nd advent plus another 1000 years = 7000 years = the number of 7 the perfect number and Jesus number is 8 new beginnings et al.
Too much has been played into numerology by our ETM brethren. I may be wrong but I perceive that many who have embraced CU/UR are still holding to traditional teachings and trying to make them fit to CU/UR.
I go along with what Mickiel says if satan is bound literally for 1000 years aka millenial reign and then is released it makes no sense. This is anyway followed by the mother of all wars aka the apocalypse which in itself is ludicrous as in a literal 1000 years of peace w/o evil influence, who would be making weapons?
Either you take the book of Revelation literal throughout or symbolic/allegorical throughout. This is where I get my back up with folk that take a prophesy:
Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.
And then quantum leap between past present and future at will to suit their doctrines.
Just like the Jews who look toward a Messiah that has already transpired, satan has most of Christendom looking outward toward some future event of Kingdom to come that is already established.
Personally, I would suggest putting Revelation in the pending tray until the Holy Spirit wants to reveal it to you. Remember, John wrote it to the seven churches so in essence the prophesy was for them first. I am not saying it has no relevance for us but I believe the revelation of revelation is very much a personal thing, hence it is so hotly debated. The hell-fire and cloud surfing folk have extracted enough cherries to confuse the folk and keep them in bondage and ineffective as a body.
If you see the coming of the Lord as perpetually present and spiritual, then read Revelation in the same way.
Blessings
Well again, what I go on is what I read, because I don't know the level of Spiritual inspiration behind what I read, I can't tell anyone what that is, because I don't know, but I am not going to take anyonelses word for it, Gods word for it is sufficent.
Look at the flow of Revelations from chapter 17- chapter 20, its bang bang quick quick. That is the pace. In 17:12, the 10 Kings, who have not yet received a Kingdom, are given Authority with the Beast for " One Hour". Together with the beast, they are destined to fight Jesus in vs.14. By these indications, this battle will last only one hour, which is basically going to be a slaughter. Note that the called and chosen ones " Will be with Christ DURING this battle".
Again in 18:8, the urgency of Gods intent is shown by giving all the Plagues to Babylon in " One Day". In one Day Babylon is said to have " Burned up with Fire", it says God Judges her in One Day. So the " Pace" here is quick, One hour or One Day, even if the time is not exactly that, the " Symbolism" offered is still the impression of fast paced judgement. Notice 18:10, " For in One Hour Your Judgement has Come." Again the theme of fast paced Judgement is repeated. In the Bible repitition is emphisis, and the oppisite is true also, because we know how the Bible can just mention something just one time, and does not place emphisis on it. But here in Revelations, this quick pace is repeated. Again in 18:17, it is repeated. In One Hour their wealth and Shipping abilitys are destroyed. Their Navy is wiped out. In 18:19, it is Again repeated.
Its the pace here that concerns me, these are very fast moving events. Now Chapter 19; 1-10are praise verses basically, but then in vs.11 the heavens open and Jesus appears, and that I think is a vital key in understanding all of these events. Revelations is " Jumping Back and Forth, not telling the story in a straight Line, Or Chronilogical Order. Jesus has already defeated Babylon in Chapter17, now we are switching back to his second comming in 19:11, and in vs 20 he's dealing with the Beast again. Then in Chapter 20,the 1000 years is introduced. Satan is imprisioned and in vs.6, the Saints reign with Christ for 1000 years. In vs.7, obviously the 1000 years are over and Satan is loosed.
No mention of what this 1000 years is going to be like in detail, no other references to it that go in detail, this period is not emphisized in the bible. Its not given a lot of importance. Even if taken literal, the Bible still brushes through this period very quickly. And I question that, at least the literal view of it. Then the deception starts all over again, now theres a " Second War", a Second Ressurection, and a Great White Throne Judgement.
So I think there is a lot of Juggling going on, events fast moving, and we just misunderstand things at this dazzaling pace. I am weary of this pace, but then all of a sudden there is a 1000 years of a " Lull in the Action". That don't fit right. For Christ to fight humanity once, destroy their armys, supposedly have his second comming, then set up a Flesh mixed Kingdom on earth, that only last for 1000 years, then we have to fight again. Somethings not working with that.
Peace.
Quote from: Seeker
Personally, I would suggest putting Revelation in the pending tray until the Holy Spirit wants to reveal it to you. Remember, John wrote it to the seven churches so in essence the prophesy was for them first. I am not saying it has no relevance for us but I believe the revelation of revelation is very much a personal thing, hence it is so hotly debated. The hell-fire and cloud surfing folk have extracted enough cherries to confuse the folk and keep them in bondage and ineffective as a body.
Seeker,
Revelation has been in my pending tray for years. I think it is a book that we all should understand but I sure have had my problems doing this. I admit I have learned a lot about Revelation in the past five years. A lot I have learned and changed my mind on came from these forums, that is why I like to read what others think about a subject. You see, the reason I posted these articles is, this was what I thought was a fact but recently I have been questioning some of this.
Mickiel,
Quote from: Mickiel
So I think there is a lot of Juggling going on, events fast moving, and we just misunderstand things at this dazzaling pace. I am weary of this pace, but then all of a sudden there is a 1000 years of a " Lull in the Action". That don't fit right. For Christ to fight humanity once, destroy their armys, supposedly have his second comming, then set up a Flesh mixed Kingdom on earth, that only last for 1000 years, then we have to fight again. Somethings not working with that.
This was what I was looking for, your opinion. This area is where I have questions also.
Something else I wonder about though. If God is going to teach all as it says in (John 6:45) When will this take place if not when Christ returns? There are those who die every day who have not heard about God. Mickiel, you said "there will be no saving of souls in the kingdom of God". When will these souls be saved that have not heard of God?
Thanks for you patience.
CHB
Quote from: CHBRevelation has been in my pending tray for years. I think it is a book that we all should understand but I sure have had my problems doing this. I admit I have learned a lot about Revelation in the past five years. A lot I have learned and changed my mind on came from these forums, that is why I like to read what others think about a subject. You see, the reason I posted these articles is, this was what I thought was a fact but recently I have been questioning some of this.
Hi CHB
I possibly only see one flaw in your approach and forgive me if I misconstrue what you were trying to say. I do not think any scripture can be boxed into a answer 1 = question 1. I believe as we grow and mature we should be flexible to allow for new revelation. However, new revelation should be progressive. Dismissing the fundie traditional approach and seing a new level 1 that makes sense for now I would say is safe, thereafter, revelations should be progressively deeper and should not necessarily contradict. I hope I am making sense.
As for the 1000 years, this has been linked witha 3rd return, the second being the cloud surfing, and then us saintly folk ministering to the fleshly folk aka the survivors of the great tribulation.
What is glaringly wrong with this presupposition is that while satan is bound for 1000 years why would it take so long for us to convert these survivors? Secondly upon conversion they too would be immortalised don't you think. W/o satan how then would they be able to refuse?
I do not have an answer yet for the 1000 years but I would say it is symbolic rather than literal. I am starting to see things differently on many levels, if the Lord directs me back to Revelation I will share what I find.
I think there is enough about Jesus to demystify first
Here is one article I found on the millennium on Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/HopeoftheJews/chap19.htm
Quote from: CHB
Quote from: Mickiel
So I think there is a lot of Juggling going on, events fast moving, and we just misunderstand things at this dazzaling pace. I am weary of this pace, but then all of a sudden there is a 1000 years of a " Lull in the Action". That don't fit right. For Christ to fight humanity once, destroy their armys, supposedly have his second comming, then set up a Flesh mixed Kingdom on earth, that only last for 1000 years, then we have to fight again. Somethings not working with that.
This was what I was looking for, your opinion. This area is where I have questions also.
Something else I wonder about though. If God is going to teach all as it says in (John 6:45) When will this take place if not when Christ returns? There are those who die every day who have not heard about God. Mickiel, you said "there will be no saving of souls in the kingdom of God". When will these souls be saved that have not heard of God?
Thanks for you patience.
CHB
Greetings CHB,
Firstly, In John 6:45, being taught of God, as I have mentioned, is already occuring, why Does God have to be held to restrictions in his power to teach? He is not restricted by time, by human committment to learning, not by life or death, not by the condition of the being he is teaching, not by scripture, God can teach, and Does teach, by his own power. Because his power is unlimited, then his ability to teach is unlimited, weather we see that or not. The souls you are wondering as to " When " they will be saved, they are ALREADY saved! They are Already Judged. Your mind searchs for a timeframe, a moment that you can see and pin down as God acting to save them. When Jesus did his thing on earth, THAT is when they were Saved. God is not going to ressurect dead humanity to make ready to save them, he has already accomplished that. Humans will be ressurected to be changed from mortal to immortality. They will be changed, that change will involve them being absolutely purged from sin and Forgiven, if you believe and accept universal Salvation.
But if you do not accept the forgiveness of all, then the ressurection of the dead takes on a different meaning. In that case, humans can be raised from the dead, to then be judged by God, or to be put on " Trial". Given some sort of life in the flesh, given a space of time to learn and grow, and then, at some much later date, God will convert them, and then they will be changed to Spirit beings. This still could be a way to accept the salvation of all, but only after they go through this learning period, taught by Spiritual beings, and then annointed later. I am uneasy with that belief.
For example, Rev.20:12;" And I saw the dead, the great and small, standing before the throne, and bookS were opened; and ANOTHER Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were Judged from the Things written in the BookS, according to their deeds." Now, IF you accept Universal Salvation, then you are believing that the Judgement that these " Books" are giving to humanity, is eternal Life Freely Given to all created humans. We believe the Judgement that the Books reveal, is the Freely inherited Salvation of all. The dead humans who are in " Death cyber Space", who you might have thought were not yet Judged, are actually Judged already. They already have inherited eternal Life, so their ressurection is only a formality of Giving it to them, NOT Teaching it to them. The teaching is not that important at this stage, the GIVING of eternal Life superseeds any learning that you are curious to pin down.
The " Dead were Judged from the things written in the Books". The things written in the Book reveal the Forgiveness of All. They are Judged " According to their deeds", not their individual deeds, but the " Deeds in the Books", which could reference the very deeds of Christ himself. Our Judgement is based on Jesus, the Sineater, as is our Salvation.
There will be no soul saving in Gods Kingdom, because all the souls are saved already. That is if you accept universal Salvation. Even if we must allow this " Teaching Time" in the Kingdom, teaching, or training, or Learning, is NOT considered Saving someone. Those things can be done to " Saved People."
Peace.
Quote from: Seeker
I possibly only see one flaw in your approach and forgive me if I misconstrue what you were trying to say. I do not think any scripture can be boxed into a answer 1 = question 1. I believe as we grow and mature we should be flexible to allow for new revelation. However, new revelation should be progressive. Dismissing the fundie traditional approach and seing a new level 1 that makes sense for now I would say is safe, thereafter, revelations should be progressively deeper and should not necessarily contradict. I hope I am making sense.
Seeker,
I do believe in progressive revelation. I have believed in the salvation of all for a long time but there are things that I am still learning on these subjects, especially things in Revelation.
Thanks for the article.
CHB
Quote from: Mickiel
Firstly, In John 6:45, being taught of God, as I have mentioned, is already occuring, why Does God have to be held to restrictions in his power to teach? He is not restricted by time, by human committment to learning, not by life or death, not by the condition of the being he is teaching, not by scripture, God can teach, and Does teach, by his own power. Because his power is unlimited, then his ability to teach is unlimited, weather we see that or not. The souls you are wondering as to " When " they will be saved, they are ALREADY saved! They are Already Judged.
Mickiel, I agree that God can teach us and is teaching some of us now but some don't even know there is a God. I also know that everyone is already saved but most do not know it and most haven't repented, not that they have to repent to be saved. It just seems to say they will repent. I do think that everyone will eventually at some point in time acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I am not sure when this will be, but the whole world is not and has never been filled with the knowledge of God as it says it will be in... (Hab. 2:14) "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".
This can get confusing I guess. Sorry for any inconvenience.
God bless.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2008, 08:20:43 PM
Quote from: Mickiel
Mickiel, I agree that God can teach us and is teaching some of us now but some don't even know there is a God. I also know that everyone is already saved but most do not know it and most haven't repented, not that they have to repent to be saved. It just seems to say they will repent. I do think that everyone will eventually at some point in time acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I am not sure when this will be, but the whole world is not and has never been filled with the knowledge of God as it says it will be in... (Hab. 2:14) "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".
This can get confusing I guess. Sorry for any inconvenience.
God bless.
CHB
Greetings, there is no inconvenience with me, if you can suffer myself, I can suffer yours. If I had to nail down a scriptural time that God begins to ignite, inform, refresh, renew, instill, and increase on resurrected unknowing humanity, it would be Rev. 22:1-5. Here God deals with the " Healing of the Peoples", which covers much ground. Teaching and education, spiritual infusion of all kinds, opening of minds, filling in of empty spaces, just about any kind of experience one could imagine, can take place during this " Healing Time." In vs. 5, God shall " Illumine Them", oh this can cover a whole lot of spiritual ground.
But it is here, it is here that all unimformed, will be informed. All ignorant, will be educated. All things needed, will be provided, but only after the healing. And most of the Healing will be a giant infusion of Galations 5:22, the Fruits of the Spirit will be flushed into humanity, like the rays of the Sun flush the entire earth.
So I would say that this is the time of worldwide" Bringing into awareness", where God heals the consciousness of Humanity and begins their New Birth at a point that they can comprehend what is going on.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel,
You might just be on to something here. Thanks for this information, I never thought of this verse in this way before.
The next question is, when is this taking place? Already done, now, or in the future?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2008, 11:09:04 PM
Hi Mickiel,
You might just be on to something here. Thanks for this information, I never thought of this verse in this way before.
The next question is, when is this taking place? Already done, now, or in the future?
CHB
This event is future. Its the last recorded chapter in the bible, the last recorded events we are given insight into for our future. Man has moved into eternity here, we begin our destiny with God. And are said to ever be with him forevermore. In Rev.20, the throne of God himself is now on earth, the earth then is now the center of the Spiritual World. We begin our time with God with a mass healing, the physical seasons that exist in the physical relm are removed. The sun itself is removed from reality, Gods own glory will be the Light in the Kingdom. This means " Time" is removed and eliminated. Time is interelated to the material world, as is pain, misery and curses. All these are eliminated perminately in Rev.20:3-5, which is another reason we do not accept the eternal hell punishing doctrine.
In this final recorded event, God ends the physical relm, and embodies himself as omega, or the end.
Peace.
Quote from: MickielSo I would say that this is the time of worldwide" Bringing into awareness", where God heals the consciousness of Humanity and begins their New Birth at a point that they can comprehend what is going on.
I think I am seeing now where your POV of the born again comes from, makes sense. I still believe however, we can have this experience now, a beginning of sorts and hereafter fulfilled completely.
Blessings
Quote from: SeekerSA on January 10, 2008, 07:55:50 AM
Quote from: MickielSo I would say that this is the time of worldwide" Bringing into awareness", where God heals the consciousness of Humanity and begins their New Birth at a point that they can comprehend what is going on.
I think I am seeing now where your POV of the born again comes from, makes sense. I still believe however, we can have this experience now, a beginning of sorts and hereafter fulfilled completely.
Blessings
Well I quess its known by some here how I view the Born Again subject, so I won't go into that, I certainly differ on that with many, not only here, but just about everywhere I go. Consciousness is tricky, in my view, just because we are aware of something, does not mean we " Own It", right then and there. Conversely, just because we are not aware of it, does not always mean we are excluded from it. And this is how I view Universal Salvation. Many are not aware of it, but none are excluded from it. Because Universal Salvation is a " Prophecy", and many are not always keyed into Prophecy.
The " Truth" is the Spirit of Prophecy, NOT awareness. The " Spirit of Prophecy", is not based on who is aware of the Prophecy. Now there is a definte blessing in being aware of Prophecy, look at Rev. 22:7;" And behold, I am comming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the Prophecy of this Book." There is a blessing in awareness, or Consciousness. But Prophecy is not based on Consciousness, its based on Truth. Not all Consciousness are aware of Truth. The Truth is Constant and really never ending. God will put and end to many, many things, but he willnot place an end on Truth.
Many believers are aware of the Biblical interpitations on being " Born Again", and their consciousness is seared on it, unrelenting and unchanging. They have identified the subject, which is " Name it", they have taken it by the force of their belief, which is " Claim It". And this is how I view the " Searing of the Consciousness", the belief is so deeply rooted, it is impossible for it to be reversed. The belief in eternal hell punishment, is a searing of the Consciousness, it is implanted so deeply, not even clear scripture against it can penertrate its root system. Thats because the person " Desires it to be true", which no hell believer will readily admit.
The Born Again experience is something people strongly desire to be now theirs, now accomplished, now complette. And I understand that. I understand strong Spiritual Desire, and I consider it to be stronger than any human emotion that I know of, up there next to addiction. Once a Spiritual Mind believes that it has been " Enlightened", it is a very hard thing to back it down from that, because there are areas that it shouldnot back down from, but our wisdom to know the difference is often weak.
Peace.
If you examine what Consciousness is, then one can see a little more of its importance. To be conscious is to be aware. Aware of your existence, mentally alert and knowing what you are doing. Now look at the definition of Counscience: The guiding recognition of right and wrong as regards ones actions and motives. Look at that, now we are adding moral qualities with only a slight variation in the term. I think thats interesting, and very relevant.
In Matthews 22:37, Jesus asserts " You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart , and with all your Soul and with all your Mind." This is the Consciousness, this is the ultimate awareness, this is the very future of human thinking. So really God is the focus of all who are Conscious.
You need to think about that sometimes, all life, before we were alive, all conscious beings are totally fixated on God. And let me share some of the reasons WHY they are fixated on God. God is not forcing them to focus on him, like some ego maniac, but they are doing it for firstly these two reasons; God created them and they are grateful for life, two, its what they " See in God" that fascinates them!
They are looking into total Goodness and Mercy, unlimited Love and Peace, overwhelming Kindness and Patience, outstanding Gentleness and Longsuffering. And they are seeing these things at their highest, and they are impressed, they are overwhelmed by it, they are humbled by it, they are AFFECTED by it! And it causes them to fall down, or humble themselves, and Worship this great awesome being. And this is the control that God has on his subjects. THIS is why God is a Conscious overpowering influence. He IS the Power, but he DISPLAYS the FRUITS of the Spirit in HIS Consciousness. Because of Gods Consciousness, Goodness and Mercy RULES reality! And this is going to affect us. This is the true power behind Consciousness.
Peace.
Hi CHB
QuotePierac,
What is your opinion on this?
How do you picture the 1000 year reign? Is it a thousand years? Will there be people that will be saved during this 1000 years?
Will there be humans on earth when Christ sets up his kingdom?
Here is another article that explains what I am talking about.
I don't have a clue. :dontknow: I have read so many really good articles on this, that I just don't know. I think He is returning to set up some kind of an earthly Kingdom, I just don't know how it will play out?
Jesus spent 40 days discussing the Gospel of the Kingdom after his resurrection. Yet they still asked...
Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
What did Jesus say?
Act 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
In the Lord's prayer, Jesus teaches us to pray "Thy Kingdom come. " It should be noted, you do not pray for something to come if it is already here. :dontknow:
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on January 11, 2008, 03:06:36 AM
Jesus spent 40 days discussing the Gospel of the Kingdom after his resurrection. Yet they still asked...
Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
What did Jesus say?
Act 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
In the Lord's prayer, Jesus teaches us to pray "Thy Kingdom come. " It should be noted, you do not pray for something to come if it is already here. :dontknow:
Paul
Well I think these are good points. I know how it is to be consciously convivced about things, verses the humility to admit you really are not sure about things. Why indeed would Jesus teach others to pray for Gods Kingdom to come, if he was the living Kingdom living within them. Of all the truths I have assembled to help me to understand that the Kingdom is not now within, I never consider that verse. And that is a sign of the truth, when the evidence continues to build, like something growing.
And let me say this, a Prophecy grows or builds, as does a promise. There are differing ways to handle a promise, espically a promise comming from someone like God. I understand the urgency to take Gods promises for later, as if they are for now. In Luke 24:49, " And behold, I am sending forth the promise of my Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." Now you know good and well that some of the disciples didnot want to wait in that city, they were hyped up enough to go at it with their own power. But God promised them to be filled with the Power.
Imagine that, to be able to say to yourself; " I have the Power", and I have it now. I am Born Again, and Born Again right now. I have the Kingdom within, and I have it right now. But do you have the Power? Has it been given? In physcology, one is trained in physcosis. Often a way to convince yourself, is repitition, you just keep telling yourself that you are something. Oh the Father promised that we will be Born Again, that we will have the Kingdom, but has it been given, or are we to be waiting on it? Again I won't go far into this, because I respect how many here have laid out their claims.
But there are certain ways to interpit Scripture. In Luke 23:43, Jesus tells the thief next to him on the Cross, " Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with me in Paradise." When that theif is ressurected, it still will be that day to him, even if it is 2000 years later. But the theif will still have to wait for the promise, until he is ressurected, even though the promise was made with literally no room avialible for waiting for it to be fulfilled. Whenever he is ressurected, no days will have passed in Paradise, he still will be with Jesus that day. 8,000 human years may pass, but no day in Paradise will elaspe until the theif is there with Christ, and no day will pass after he is there. And this is not trick terminology, these are biblical facts. And this same meaning applies to the 1000 year period called the millinueim.
Peace.
I so love the early posts concerning the title of this thread! I've put them in a folder to re-read because of the stimulating revelation given. Ah Mikiel, Mikiel! You cause me to sing! I hear music! Let's dance!
But I must speak of the present reality of what Daniel reveals of the dream of the head of gold (who himself after humbling perceived, "Gods Kingdom rules over all"), "The Stone cut out without hands," that is becoming, "a great mountain that fills all the earth." The mountains are kingdoms. This was brought forth a couple of millennia ago with the Revelation of Jesus Christ smashing the Roman Kingdom and replacing it with Christendom, a carnal first move that will be surpassed, perhaps in our years, with a more spiritual version.
One of the more glorious things I've experienced is that the Holy Spirit the Father sends in the name of Jesus is both The Realm and The Ruler of The Kingdom of God. That is why it is so called. The Kingdom of God is just God! Jesus suffered and died so that we could be brought into a direct experience of God, nothing between us and Him, unmediated by any other being. That is why the professional religious elite with titles of honor from other men claiming they are themselves the "headship" ministry is another kingdom blasphemously supplanting the Only LORD who bought them. The true Head of the body is present and directly quickening each member of His body. That is why they're called "His body."
"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..." (Romans 14:17, ASV) Some think only when the dimension of the physical (the same in which is food and drink for our body) is inescapably subjugated planet-wide to the manifest presence of God, then His kingdom has come. (Regardless of doctrinaire denials by the inexperienced) not only is that realm sometimes entered into already by saints, the fact that, "the kingdom of God is inside you..." (Lk 17.21) is a clue to how it is accomplished. In 2 Pet 1.3-11 "...the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..." is more fully explained, particulars built one upon another that this entrance NOW may, "...be richly supplied unto you." This kingdom is described as our becoming, "...participants of the divine nature." (v.4) The ladder rungs of this entrance, climbed with "all diligence," are ennumerated in this passage as "faith ...virtue ...knowledge ...self-control ...endurance ...devoutness ...brotherly-fondness ...love." (vs. 5-7)
If we are to be taught by anyone about the kingdom, surely first would be Jesus. "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.'" (John 18:36 ASV) Now consider the following three phrases where Jesus acknowledged that entering the kingdom, understood by his disciples as "salvation" was a right equivalence: "'Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God'. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looking upon them saith, 'With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God'." (Mark 10:24-27, ASV) If it is true for you, whoever you may be, that you are not in the kingdom of God, be confident God's will is for you to be quickened to live by His Spirit. The experience of regeneration, or being "born again" is the testimony of so many people. You may have this work of God in you too. He, "Rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the forgiveness of sins..." (Col 1:13-14, CLV)
---James Rohde
Quote from: reFORMer
If we are to be taught by anyone about the kingdom, surely first would be Jesus. "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.'" (John 18:36 ASV) Now consider the following three phrases where Jesus acknowledged that entering the kingdom, understood by his disciples as "salvation" was a right equivalence: "'Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God'. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looking upon them saith, 'With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God'." (Mark 10:24-27, ASV) If it is true for you, whoever you may be, that you are not in the kingdom of God, be confident God's will is for you to be quickened to live by His Spirit. The experience of regeneration, or being "born again" is the testimony of so many people. You may have this work of God in you too. He, "Rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the forgiveness of sins..." (Col 1:13-14, CLV)
---James Rohde
You know I really didnot want to go into the Kingdom being within thing, because I already know how it is planted very deeply here at Tentmaker, and I have no intention of trying to pull it out. But just to go over what was already mentioned, and to bear witness that we all do not believe alike, Jesus states that his Kingdom is not of this world, which means his Kingdom will not be in this world, or established in this world. The Kingdom of God is Love , Joy, Peace, and all the fruits of the Spirit, but it is not human Love, human Joy, earthly Peace or earthly duplicated shadows or imitations of the Spirit. It is the Heavenly example of these. But again I am making a conscious effort not to go into this, I am in no mood to take candy from an adult.
People are free to believe as they wish, I don't vist Tentmaker that much, I don't stay long, and I try not to bother people while I am here, I don't want my vists to always be serious debates that do nothing but anger people, I get enough hate mail as it is. Its no great thing that we will see things differing, Peter and Paul did, and if the Prophets lived at the same time, they would have been the same. It really does not matter, we can do nothing against whats really true anyway. It does not matter what we believe, the truth is constant. Look at 2 Corinth. 13:8;" For we can do nothing against the Truth, only for the truth." Whatever any of us are believing, that is really not true, so what, your belief can do nothing against the truth. You can take it to the grave with you, die in the deception, and it still will not go against you, or against Gods Kingdom. You will just be an example of how one can be misled, and still be saved, because knowledge does not bring conscious conversion.
Peace.
This is from another thread. It at least mentions not the elimination of the physical, but having a permanent embodiment which is the result of the resurrection. It also points out some thing about "The ThousandS" of years Reign which is probably a learning period for the young immortals before the opening out into the grand concluding age (for this present cosmos.) There is beyond, but that is what it is, "Beyond."
THE FAR FUTURE
As it is a function of spirit, God's Spirit seeks the deep things of God. So we seek, a yearning out of the depths, to also glimpse those things in the more distant future. We inquire whether Adamic humanity, homo sapiens, would advance and improve. What is it's future?
I understand that the promise to bless to Abraham's offspring, even also to those obedient in love to God, is for a thousand generations. "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations..." (Deut 7:9) Calculating a generation as 40 years, we have at least 36,000 years left. Much change indeed can be expected in that one revolution of the mammal's aptly named "Milky Way." We haven't even emerged from the womb yet.
The Firstborn immortal head of the Royal Priesthood body, Jesus, is preparing a Marriage Feast, of mans animalistic lamb's flesh and God, the two made one. God will have permanent expression not only as spirit, but physically in the Sonship realm where the material universe is. When that many-membered body of Glory, the Shekinah Consort of the God-head is manifested, trained and reigning upon the great white Mercy Throne, that New Man, homo novae, will have finally begun. The Adamic form for others will continue reproducing flesh individuals living at least a restored thousand years, ("...for the child shall die an hundred years old..." Is 65:20) though expected to normally partake of the Tabernacle feast so defeating death long before reaching a natural end. ("...but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Is 65:20) Under the discipline of the incorruptible members of the first resurrection mankind will not only enter full redemption, but will disperse into the reaches of "the land" promised them to inherit, all that is within the realm called space/time. It is that "all things are yours," "...let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." (1 Cor 3:21-23)
But ah, the thousand generations is a "calculation" of years! What 40 is to 120 (the present economy,) could the coming generations be by comparison 333 years? This would mean more than 2 1/2 million years are remaining for flesh man, though under different dispensations. The Biblical "Millennium" is plural in the original, so times are not clear for what seems the training period for the young immortals.
What not only of light, but also of the darkness? In Jude's letter it is mentioned of the fall of glorious beings, their forbidden intermingling with the seed of Eve and subsequent chains of darkness. Such great and high cultures, prior to the appearance of man, with their engineering marvels grasping to imitate the abilities of the Divine nature, can have fallen and be held in the darkness of a forgetting mind, even denying it's glorious past in dim myths sung at ceremonial occasions. Even as man is fallen and makes no move to the vast unmined horde of stars like diamonds, glittering in God's cold dark vault. But mankind's future is brightest of all that ever may be, no superior sequel is possible. The ultimate has occurred. God's own manifestation as one of us leads forth into undying dawn, continuing onward and upward ever, even beyond all matter being collapsed into a keepsake, another "primal atom." "And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." (Heb 1:12) Yes, space can be folded and dark matter and energy now hide his out raying from consuming us. "He made darkness His secret place." (Ps 18:11) "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end..." (Is 9:7)
Psalm 102:25-28:
"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment;
as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
The children of thy servants shall continue,
and their seed shall be established before thee.
---James Rohde
Mickiel:
Are you saying that people cannot be born again (I prefer 'regenerated') in this life and that the Kingdom of God is not within man, because you see so much imperfection still in man?
Just wanting to clarify..
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 13, 2008, 12:32:12 AM
Mickiel:
Are you saying that people cannot be born again (I prefer 'regenerated') in this life and that the Kingdom of God is not within man, because you see so much imperfection still in man?
Just wanting to clarify..
Brian
Well Yes, that is what I believe.
I believe the New Birth, is just that, a totally New Birth. And I believe the Kingdom of God is a " Place", not some kind of " Spirit" that is within man.
I have been around the block on this topic here, so I don't bring it up myself, but I will respond to querys made of me. These two are " Sensitive Subjects", and they run deeply, so I try to respect my disagreement with others on it.
To be Born again, in my view, literally means what it says, to be actually Born Again. Not just some qusai Spiritual Birth in your mind, but to be taken out of the flesh, and totally transformed into a whole different being than you were before. You will have a whole new body, a whole new mind, a whole new being, nothing will be the same. That is how I understand being Born Again.
I understand the Kingdom of God, to mean Gods Throne and the place that surrounds it. And when the bible speaks of the comming Kingdom of God, it speaks of a Kingdom that is not already here, inside of people, it is speaking of a geographic place that is directly associated with Gods literal Pressence.
I believe the " Process " that leads to being Born Again, can begin while one is still human, but the actual New Birth, is simply that, your former self is dead, complettely dead. And your New Self, is something even you have not seen or experienced.
Peace.
Mickiel:
Okay, just checking.
I kind of agree with your idea of a "total overhaul" of the person. I personally see that as happening as a baptism of fire, which even Jesus went through (I believe).
It's a subject which, were I to speak on, I suppose I should use the conditional grammatical form since I haven't passed through such a thing as of this moment.
Personally (not to try to convince you, only to express myself a little), I believe in a presence of the Lord within man. Not when we want, but when He wants. The problem as I see it today, is that we don't have the "abiding" presence. The Spirit descends, and it lifts. It's not abiding nor is it without measure as Jesus had it.
I believe I have been regenerated because there was a specific experience I had in 1990 which changed me. It doesn't mean I am perfect. No! We are in Pentecost, a period of mixture. But someday we will see Tabernacles, with that abiding presence without measure as Jesus had, but in a company of people. Still, that experience back in 1990 marked me. And even though I'm still in the flesh, I'm not the same. I would be lying if I said that I was the same person that I was before that experience. My heart if different today. I feel it.
I apologize if I offended you in any way. I just wanted to share what I've experienced, if it could be of any benefit to you or to anyone else reading.. Otherwise just ignore it!
Blessings!
Bri
[quote author=whyiloveitaly link=
I apologize if I offended you in any way. I just wanted to share what I've experienced, if it could be of any benefit to you or to anyone else reading.. Otherwise just ignore it!
Blessings!
Bri
[/quote]
Well I understand, and please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to infiltrate everyones personal experiences. I can understand that many have had momemts that they feel were " Spiritual", and they count that moment as the time they were converted, or " Born Again", or something happened to them that they count the experience as one generated by God. Because of what we read in scripture, we know God can come in a dramatic way, and instantly do something to a person. That is possible, but I would disagree with any teaching that would claim that to be " Normal". It is not normal for God to call someone dramatically. It is not normal for God to supernaturally communicate with a human.
It is normal for God to slowly, over the years, deal with the human bit by bit, page by page, here a little there a little. That is the normal way that God breaks a human in. Look closely at 1 Corinth. 13:4, this is the Evidence of how God communicates with an individual. This is how God always, normally reveals himself to a human. God is Love, thus what Love is, defines how God is. Thus what Love does, is the way we can know how God does things. " Love is patient, Love is Kind and is not Jealous, does not brag and is not arrogant. Now if you go through this list, it is really a discription of Gods own personality in vs. 1-8. But notice that Love is Patient, that there reveals that the calling of God is not normally instant, as if we can nail it down to a specific moment, I disagree with that traditional notion. Not that it is impossible to do, but it is not normal, or common for God to do it, so we shouldnot expect that from him. I call it the " Big Bang Theory", you ask someone how they know they have been called, they think they have to explain some big bang moment in their lives. The Goodness of God leads to repentance, not the drama of God. Many of us are just " Spiritual Drama Queens." They start explaining their calling and it goes like this:" Well one day God threw me off the Ambassordor Bridge, and every since then I knew I was different."
No, Love bears all things in your Life, thus God will bear all things in your Life, and use all things in your Life. Are we now Gods Drama Kings and Queens, are we indoctrinated by specfic dramatical great moments in our lives? Love endures all things, thus God will endure all things, and Love never Fails. Do you realize what it means to be called by a God, that whatever he is doing to you, whatever method he is using, will NEVER Fail? Where is the need for drama, when you hold a Power like that? No, we underestimate God, and WE have a need to dramatise things.
Look at verse 8; the name it claim it now people are trying to extend the time of Flesh, saying we will train people for 1000 years, some even think we will always be taught things in the Kingdom, as if Knowledge will last forever; " Love never Fails", that is the consistancy of Consciousness right there. " There will be gifts of prophecy, they will be DONE AWAY, IF there are Tounges they will CEASE, IF there is Knowledge, it will be DONE AWAY WITH!" God uses these things NOW, but when we motor into the Kingdom, these things will be done away with! There won"t be any teaching done in Gods Kingdom. There will be no soul Saving or some kind of Trainning being done. The WHOLE THING will be NEW, but I don't think we understand that. This is why I know we are not Born Again yet. The Kingdom of God is going to be a Fantastic Voyage, one that none of us have already experienced. Oh how misleading it is to think you are now experiencing the Kingdom of God, or the Fullness of his Spirit.
Vs.9, " For we Know IN PART, and Prophesy in Part". Look, thats it right there, from perhaps the greatest teacher God has formed on earth. We just LEARN in part, we are Just Partly Conscious of God. We are not yet fully equiped, but we LOVE to think that we are. Why, because we COVET GOD! We imagine ourselves to be what we would Love to be. And its just our imagination, it is not God. Oh but imagination is a very Powerful thing.
And I am not offended in any manner, I am the one who needs to be concerned with causing offence. These things I am sharing, can greatly offend others, espically those who have claimed things for 20 years, then here comes along this person who suggest that those 20 years, need to be re-evaluated and set on course. Oh people don't like that. I am the one who needs to be concerned with that, because I don't want to hurt people, or burst their " Spiritual Bubbles."
Peace.
Mickiel:
Well, I must say that there are a couple of scriptures that have come to mind. Indeed, God calls whom He will in His own time. And I believe that will include everyone of us. Example: Jer. 31:34--- "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
All I can say is that I had a feeling that God existed. I began to study the Bible (without much "religious guidance") and I saw that the disciples received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And I saw that they were changed; before it, Peter was ashamed of being a disciple. But after, he considered it a priviledge to suffer persecution for His name's sake!
So I began to pray saying, God, if you're real, I need to FEEL you! It's not enough to just believe.
And one day, it happened! (I wasn't in any church building when it did, either!) Man, what a flood of love!
And from that day, I wanted to talk about Jesus. Before, it wasn't that way.
Again, I hope I don't offend you! It's my experience. And I'm no one special!
Some would say that it was "mind over matter." All I can say is, if it is, we need more of it in this world!
And you know what?
That feeling of love made me understand that our God is a God that saves and cares. He's not like man (just like you said at the start of this thread).
And many of the religious crowd (unfortunately) haven't experienced His love yet. That's why they don't see UR.
Or maybe they just don't WANT to see UR.
Anyway, if I could say one last thing it would be, "don't box God in.--He can do more than we could ever imagine or wish!"
Many blessings!
Bri
Mickiel:
I certainly don't want to come off as "holier than thou" or as a spiritual teacher! I don't know what I would have to teach if I was! Whatever I have is not mine!
I only want to say what I have experienced myself.
I'm not interested in people doing things my way. I don't have a "my own way" and I don't know why I have had the experiences in life that I have had ("good" or "bad").
I am however interested in what others like you have experienced, since that is what we can say of a truth. Paul also testified of his "road to damascus" experience. Did he say that everyone had to do things his way or else they were not in the right? I don't think so.. I don't think Paul was a holier-than-thou-type of guy.
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 13, 2008, 07:57:44 PM
Mickiel:
Well, I must say that there are a couple of scriptures that have come to mind. Indeed, God calls whom He will in His own time. And I believe that will include everyone of us. Example: Jer. 31:34--- "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."Quote
Well yes, and that is a good scripture that refers to what I am saying here of late. There will be no teaching going on in Gods Kingdom, what needs to be known, will be known. Most of those who believe the Saints will be teaching and ruling, have " Romanticised that into their Self", its a Glory that they covet. They want to do it, they want to teach , they desire to Rule. Its no different than humans who want to be in Power now. So they search the Scripture from the " Lust for their own Desires", and believe from that point of view. And understand from that point of inner desires.
Quote;
All I can say is that I had a feeling that God existed. I began to study the Bible (without much "religious guidance") and I saw that the disciples received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And I saw that they were changed; before it, Peter was ashamed of being a disciple. But after, he considered it a priviledge to suffer persecution for His name's sake!
So I began to pray saying, God, if you're real, I need to FEEL you! It's not enough to just believe. Many blessings!
Bri
Well your needs are your needs. If you need to " Feel" God, then that is the frame you have asked to be in. I see no harm in holding a need to be emotionally involved with God. But I do see a caution when Emotions are the energy behind understanding. I tend to view things differently, my feelings are not high on my list of realitys that I need with God. Perhaps oppisite than you, I ask God for realness, plain pocket pressence in my Life, in my mind, not according to how I feel, because I do not trust that, but according to my reasoning and Consciousness, my inner being that comprehends. Interestingly God will guide, often according to our personal problems. I don't have a lot of feelings about a lot of things, so I hold no intrest in " Feeling God", my problems consist of whats in my mind. My consciousness troubles me, deceives me, confuses me. My brain is what bothers me, my thinking, so God perhaps deals with me according to that.
But I do pray that your feelings are being tempered by God.
Peace.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 13, 2008, 08:11:31 PM
Mickiel:
I certainly don't want to come off as "holier than thou" or as a spiritual teacher! I don't know what I would have to teach if I was! Whatever I have is not mine!
I only want to say what I have experienced myself.
I'm not interested in people doing things my way. I don't have a "my own way" and I don't know why I have had the experiences in life that I have had ("good" or "bad").
I am however interested in what others like you have experienced, since that is what we can say of a truth. Paul also testified of his "road to damascus" experience. Did he say that everyone had to do things his way or else they were not in the right? I don't think so.. I don't think Paul was a holier-than-thou-type of guy.
Bri
Well again, speaking for myself, my dealings with God are not based on experiences, but it is impossible NOT to have experiences. Experience just means events in our history. We all have that, but in my life, I hold to what God has done and is doing to my consciousness. I am sure others here can give you exciting experiences to thrill the imagination. And I think that can be exciting, because its real. But as for me, I am headed into areas that hold a more sure foundation than experiences. Because thats what I need. I need a conversion in my mind, something to deal with this bad head of mine.
Peace.
It kind of tickles me sometimes the knowledge some feel they have a " Spiritual Cap" on. They feel their consciousness is sealed on the subject, and they have it right. Then they speak about what others have wrong.
Let me show you something Paul thought about being Born Again. In Phil. 3:10, Paul is speaking about being Born Again. " That I may know him, and the Power of his Ressurection, the fellowship of his Sufferings, being CONFORMED to his Death." These are the essence of being Born Again. Now some of you may not see this, but the Apostle is refering to the New Birth, AFTER the ressurection. Vs. 11, In Order that I may attian to the ressurection from the Dead, in other words, that I may be Born Again. He is specifically speaking about death, then comming back from the dead, or a New Birth. Not Symbolically, but Literally.
Vs.12;" Not that I have Already Obtained it, or have Already become Perfect." Hes saying here, not that I have Already been Born Again, or not that I have Already entered into the Spirit relm, where perfection is the Norm.
Pauyl knew that being Born Again was a future event in his calling, to come after he is ressurected. Notice vs. 13; " I do not regard myself as having already laid hold of it." And this is what many have done, and done it most comfortablly, having already laid hold of being Born Again, and having the Kingdom in them now. No need for the Ressurection, no need for A Spirit body, no need for those things, they have reached pass those things, and claim the prize right now in the flesh. Perfection has already come, they have already disguarded the Partial, and are somehow fully clothed with the Spirit in the Flesh, as those Spirit beings are fully clothed in the Spirit relm.
Drinking from whatever, they view themselves already full. In 1 Corinth. 10: 1-6, our forefathers all were baptised, all ate the same Spiritual Food, and drank the same Spiritual Drink, they were inspired by the same Spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with MOST of them. WHY? Because they " Craved things", they coveted things from God, things that were " godly". They wanted a form and shape of God to worship, a " Label they could see and make a claim to."
The labels now are just a different form and shape of God. Now the labels, or the idols, are being Born again NOW, having the Kingdom within now, these are the " Modernday idols". These are what Gods people covet now, these are what the people refuse to wait on, these are the " Idols", but the people do not see it that way, as they didnot years ago.
Peace.
If you look at Isaiah 45:7; "I am the Lord, there is no other. The One forming Light and creating Darkness, Causing well being and Creating Calamity; I am the Lord who does ALL these things." This is the Control stick to Consciousness, this is Great Awesome Power. This turns the Heat on and off, this takes out the Old and Brings in the New.
People wonder why God just has not instantly given humanity everything they need to become Spirit beings instantly, well thats exactly what God will do. Read verse 8;" Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds pour down Righteousness, let the earth open up and Salvation Bear Fruit, and Righteousness Spring up with it, I, the Lord, Have Created this." God will Rain down Salvation and Righteousness, and Baptise the entire world at the same time, as he rain down his Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. And Righteousness will be Born into humanity. This is the Potter displaying Large scale reconciliation. Where God will mold the entire Consciousness of a Planet. Yet men are not aware that God will do this.
Men seek to shape their own Consciousness, and even the men of God, seek to be stimulated by their feelings and amazed by their emotions, and be comforted by Gods Splendor, rather than go the route of Christ, and suffer through the complettion of Gods will.
We stand on the brink of eternal change, and find it hard to suffer temporarily. So our consciousness begs for release from the pain, we have not learned the lesson of Job. We are given Spiritual Consciousness not only to believe, but to suffer for his sake, Phil.1:29. Once Jesuys was transfigured and Born again from flesh to Spirit, he never suffered again. Why would God bring us into the New Birth, only to let us continue to suffer for years? The New Birth is the End of those things. All things become new, there will be no more suffering when we have the Kingdom Life. Our new Consciousness will not know suffering.
We will have a New Mind, and a New Power inside of us. Not a Power that needs to be learned, a Power that needs to be Lived!
Let me ask you something. If you had a baby, a child, and you wanted that child to learn something, and you were told that the child will have 500 years to learn that one thing, would you be so concerned about the child learning it? Well considering the amount of time alloted to you, I don't think it should be a concern. Now let me ask you this; God has all of Eternity in front of us, do you think he is concerned about our learning things? He has the Power to instantly make aware, do you think he is concerned with our Consciousness? Do you know how Long we will be with God? Do you understand just how long forever really is? Learning things in the Kingdom is no big deal at all. Any kind of wisdom or knowledge, or understanding you pick out, you can individually take 12 trillion years to understand it, and still not be behind, you won't loose any time, because there will be no time to loose.
You don't have to worry about individually meeting everyone, you can take 500 billion years to do that. There won't be any pressure to succeed, you will already be a Son of the Most High. You won't have to worry about growing Spiritually, because you will be just like Christ, full of Gods Holy Spirit. As will every former human being. What needs do you think you would possibily have? Do you understand what being in Gods Favor for Eternity will encompass? Are you able to comprehend the carpet that has been laid before you?
God has complette control of Eternity, and its almost frigthening to consider what he has planned for our Consciousness.
Peace.
I've met zealous religious persons who seemed to teach that the first Rule of Bible interpretation is that everything is written to another people at another time in another place. The second Rule is like unto the first. If anything remains that seems to apply to you, you've mis-interpreted it.
As long as you put everything into the future that is where it will stay (except for the over-riding grace of God.) I've discovered that through the presence of God (Exodus 3313-16) such things as partaking of, "the powers of the age to come" (Hebrews 65) or even moments wearing God as we wear our bodies, things of that class, are to be experienced now. How could Melchisadek come into a state of being "without beginning of days or end of years" if he didn't believe it, but rather relegated it to some never arriving future? "[God] speaks of those things that are not as though they already were."
Universal Salvation is a Conscious awareness, that is not based on Conscious awareness, and often our sins is the same. The Sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgement; for others, their sins follow after. 1Tim.5:24. We do this because often we are not Conscious of the things that are against even ourselves, 1Corinth.4:4, so rather than judge each other, we look to the consciousness of God to judge us. If left to ourselves, we would judge each other too quickly, vs.5, because of our nature we even judge before the time to judge.
We take before the time to take. We claim before the time to claim. And in vs.8, we consider ourselves already filled with Gods Holy Spirit to its fullness, we take further and consider ourselves to have already obtained, and we become Kings before our time, we take residence in the Kingdom before it arrives. Even since the days of John the Baptist up until now, the Kingdom of Heaven suffers from men taking it by the Violence of their greed, Matt. 11:12. The followers of God seize it for themselves , by the greed of the doctrines of their mouths and hearts.
Jesus, in Luke 16:16, reveals that the Law and the Prophets were preached until John, but even since John came on the scene, then the Gospel of the Kingdom was preached, then interestingly Jesus said " And everyone is Forcing their way into it." How do men force their way into the Kingdom of God? Well they can't wait for it, so they create doctrines that teach that you don't have to wait, you can have it now. It may be highly esteemed amoung those who accept this force, it is looked on as " A Spiritual Thing" to have the Kingdom within, but that which is highly esteemed amoung men, is detestable in the sight of God, vs.15. And this is Jesus opinion concerning those who take the Kingdom by force.
In fact Jesus statement in vs.17, is related to those who seek to force the Kingdom within now, " But it is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away, than for one stroke of the letter of the Law to Fail." Which is to say, " Before you can force the Kingdom of God to be within, there would be no Kingdom at all."
How is it then possible for the Kingdom of God to suffer " Violence", and then for Violent people to " Take it by Force?" Well the Gospel of the Kingdom, is the Good News that it is comming to earth. The Kingdom suffers Violence, by being misrepresented as already being here, within the people. Violence can certainly mean a misrepresentation of Content, meaning or intent. So you take the Kingdom by force, by misrepresenting when it is actually here and how it is here. So people who make the claim that it is here, make that claim by the violence of their belief, or the misinterpitation of their hearts, because violence also means intense energy.
To desire the Kingdom before its time, is simply longing for it to come. But to make claims that it is already come and within you, is " Coveting", which is different than desire or yearning. To Covet, is to desire wrongfully. It is inordinate desire, you want to grasp or posses something which you do not yet own the rights to. All things have been handed over to Jesus by the Father, Jesus owns the right to the Kingdom now. And Jesus said people are taking the Kingdom by violence. Those who are doing this, are NOT unbelievers, they are believers, so understand that. Believers are doing this.
And Jesus proclaimed that he would give his disciples the " Keys to the Kingdom", not the ownership deeds to it. Matt.16:19. He would give them the ability to understand what it is, open their minds to it.
But thats not enough for some believers. They desire more, and I want to go into that.
Peace.
Mickiel:
It's hard to dialogue with you when you write pages of text. Can you narrow it down to a couple of lines (for me)?
Thanks!
bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 14, 2008, 02:40:48 PM
Mickiel:
It's hard to dialogue with you when you write pages of text. Can you narrow it down to a couple of lines (for me)?
Thanks!
bri
As you wish, I can do that. 1Corinth.12:31" But earnestly desire the Greater Gifts". This desire to have something greater, is the beginning of the Spirit of Coveting. We are opened to have Love now, Edification now, but is tounges for now? Is Prophecy for now? We are opened to have Gifts of teaching now, gifts of knowledge and gifts of wisdom, but are we opened to have the Gift of being Born Again now, being in the Kingdom now?
Or are we coveting after the gifts that are out of our range and now within Gods willingness to impart at this time? Thats the question we need to be asking ourselves. When the Spirit of Greed and taking the things of God by Violence has been magnified within us, we willnot ask these questions. A theif does not ask may they steal.
Now it does not matter to me how much people have to say when they dialog with me, I hold them to no limitations or reductions. And I hold you to none, but I will submit to your every request made of me, so that you and I can have a clear understanding.
Perace.
Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ, and the voilent did take him by force.
Luke 17:21 (New American Standard Bible)
21nor will (A)they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
Luke 17:21 (New International Reader's Version)
21 People will not say, 'Here it is.' Or, 'There it is.' God's kingdom is among you."
You will find that theologians everywhere are conceding to the Luke 17:21 interpretations given by the NASB and its scholars.
Onward...
The prophecy of Christ being taken by the voilent and wicked was foretold by David long ago..
Psalm 22
7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
I ask you all, did the violent NOT take Christ by force?????????
Luke 22:53
"While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."
Peace.
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 14, 2008, 10:11:40 PM
Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ, and the voilent did take him by force.
Well again I disagree with this interpitation, the only Violence shown at Jesus arrest, was done by a disciple, who violently cut off a guards ear, not by those arresting Jesus. Judas, a disciple, betrayed Jesus with a Kiss, so the only violence shown at Jesus arrest, was by his own people, as far as who displayed violence, and who caused him to be taken in the first place.
And it is still his people that Jesus was refering to in Luke 16:16, when he plainly stated that everyone is forcing their way into the Kingdom. No twist of words can change what Jesus himself meant here. Jesus meant that men were then, and would now, misinterpit when the Kingdom was to come. Because only the Father knows when the Kingdom of Heaven will come to earth, but those who force their claim on the Kingdom now, superseed Christ and the Father both, and usurp the Kingdom from Heaven and place it within themselves. They force the Kingdom inside of themselves.
Placing themselves above God, they know when the Kingdom will return, because they make themselves the Kingdom.
In fact, to claim that the Kingdom is now within you, is to " Greive the Holy Spirit", by which we are sealed for the day the Kingdom comes. And I will show that, but I have promised not to be long.
Peace.
I had wanted to show how making claims that the Kingdom of God is now within you, or really making any false claims, is a form of " Grieving the Holy Spirit." Look at John 3:33;" He who has received his witness has set his seal to this; That God is True." When we believe things ourselves, and share those things with others, that are not true, that is bearing false witness. It is also " Greiving the Holy Spirit", or causing someonelse to be confused, which introduces " Sorrow" into their lives, because they have been given deception, and fed it as if it is Truth. And that will cause to stumble. Thats 3 different problems that indoctrinating people with false doctrines will cause, and those are just the tip of the ice bergs, it will cause much more damage. And it has.
Let me show you something that even Jesus death cannot change. In Romans 3:20;" No Flesh will be justified in Gods Sight." In 1Corinth. 15:50; " Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God." There is no comprimise to these things. I don't care how converted one may be, how spiritual they are, in their human body, there can be no justification in Gods Sight. This is another thing Jesus took on his shoulders, we are Justified by him, through him, not of ourselves, or not in or by our bodys, forgiven or not.
Our body is perishable, sown in dishonor. The ressurection of the dead, which is also the New Birth, will bring about a totally New Body that is Imperishable, 1 Corinth. 15:35-50. If you believe that you are now Born Again, the Kingdom now within, you are saying that the body you now have is justified, Glorified and imperishable, thus acceptable in Gods Kingdom right now. That you are already a Heavenly Creature, but just one who happens to sin and must still yet die again. And those are false fetish feelings.
Peace.
Commonly, many Christians have a crisis experience, or dramatic juncture in time in which they know they've been changed, that before then God was a belief and after they intimately know Him. He has revealed Himself to them. He has put something of Himself within and that the Holy Spirit has "regenerated" them. It is a vivification of their spirit only that they understand to have occured. God is now directly expressing as Spirit substance to us rather than flesh embodiment, as was Jesus in the days of His humiliation. They work together with this other comforter God has now given them to adjust their souls to be in accordance with the will and Spirit of God, that the salvation of their spirit would be wrought in their souls. This progressive conformity to God in the realm of thought, emotion and will some call sanctification. They do not claim to have yet obtained the salvation of the body, though gifts of healings are promisory experiences with God that point to the certainty of resurrection and transfiguration, which wil be what Scripture calls, "The redemption (meaning: 'liberation' or 'releasing') of the purchased possession."
I have discovered that the sending of the Holy Spirit to us in Jesus's name is from where Jesus is in the right of the Father. The Spirit we are receiving is from the realm of ascension. Scripture says, "Those who are baptised (dip-ized) into Christ are baptised into His death." This is not into water, but into Him. As enemies we were made to be at peace with, "conciliated to God through the death of His Son, much rather ['how much more!], being conciliated, we shall be saved in His life. Yet not only so, but we are glorying also in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom we now obtained the conciliation." (Rom 510-11) We can't glory in something we are not in. "We are glorying also in God." The life of Jesus was and is by the quickening of the Holy Spirit which He gives to those that love and obey Him. So we are in the "much more" of being "saved in His life." I know that my mortal body is quickened to life by the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead because He dwells in me. I know that I experience things pertaining to that like His body of glory, as Paul describes that in such he was not knowing "whether in the body or out of the body"...experiences of being "caught up into the third heaven..." (2 Cor 121-4)
Jesus has sanctified existence in this lowered flesh realm while in union with God by Himself having undergone it. He has given us many "precious and greatest promises, that through these you may become participants of the Divine nature." (2 Pet 14) "God is no respector of persons." Others have entered into things pertaining to the salvation of the body: Enoch, Melchisadek, Elijah, Jesus and those that were raised at that time with Him. Jesus has set before us an open door that no man can shut. Jesus is Himself the beginning and the end. Any of us may enter, not only if others have, but because this is God's precept and intent to minister that entrance to us abundantly because of What and Who Jesus is.
The symbology of His entering into us is in the Feasts of Israel: Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. The symbology of our entering into Him is in the Tabernacle and Temple: outer court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies. Christ in us is the hope of glory. Us in Christ is the glory revealed.
I'm trying to express that this, "salvation ready to be revealed in the last era" (1 Pet 15) is an era in each one of our lives, not only in the world. "The time" of the end is something in God. To believe our testimony of entering into those things that pertain to "The End" (which He is) is to see the glory of God. What's more, I am saying we are also of the transition generation from Pentecostal anointing into the Tabernacles anointing for full placing of the physical body into inheritance as born of God in resurrection. We are now coming to as far as we can go in the Holy Place in approach to the rent veil in order to step over into the realm of full Sonship in manifestation. This is being made known in the abundance of miracles that are increasingly upon us at this time.
Mickiel:
Can you give me your input on a few scriptures that have been on my mind since we began here? I would like to know more about your perspective:
Acts 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance...16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
1 Cor. 3:16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Cor 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2 Cor. 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2 Cor. 6:16:And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Thanks! (Remember, no more than a few paragraphs!
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 15, 2008, 10:22:49 AM
Mickiel:
Can you give me your input on a few scriptures that have been on my mind since we began here? I would like to know more about your perspective:
Thanks! (Remember, no more than a few paragraphs!
Bri
Those Scriptures speak about Man and the Holy Spirit Experience.
Peace.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 15, 2008, 08:54:13 AM
The symbology of His entering into us is in the Feasts of Israel: Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. The symbology of our entering into Him is in the Tabernacle and Temple: outer court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies. Christ in us is the hope of glory. Us in Christ is the glory revealed.
I'm trying to express that this, "salvation ready to be revealed in the last era" (1 Pet 15) is an era in each one of our lives, not only in the world. "The time" of the end is something in God. To believe our testimony of entering into those things that pertain to "The End" (which He is) is to see the glory of God. What's more, I am saying we are also of the transition generation from Pentecostal anointing into the Tabernacles anointing for full placing of the physical body into inheritance as born of God in resurrection. We are now coming to as far as we can go in the Holy Place in approach to the rent veil in order to step over into the realm of full Sonship in manifestation. This is being made known in the abundance of miracles that are increasingly upon us at this time.
Well I certainly would disagree with this. We are not the transitional generation, and we are not being flooded with miricles. I believe the next generation, or one after that will be the transition generation. Out generation will pass, because we are too steeped into things that do not matter, things such as our grip on the Holy Days, which we can't seem to let go of. We are not in the relm of full sonship, and never will be that in this flesh.
Peace.
Let me stretch this out a little more, because reFormer is not concerned with how long a dialog is. Jesus gets into the " Last Generation" on earth before his return in Matt.24. In 1-7, he even list all the troubles to occur on earth, and these are worldwide troubles, the focus is worldwide, not a specfic nation. In vs.8 he called all these troubles, the " Beginning of Birth Pangs", which is another reference to the future tense of being Born Again. In vs.9-13, he increases the list. But then in vs.14, he states that the gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world, and then the end shall come. I think thats plain enough, a sure tell all sign of what generation is the transitional generation. The gospel of the Kingdom is no where near being preached in all the world, BUT, God could change that in one day. The ABILITY, the Technology exist, that could sent the gospel of the Kingdom into all the world. Oh yes, but that door has not been opened.
The men you know who preach the gospel truth, ask them how much they get invited to preach. How often do you see men like Gary A., preaching on international media outlets? And if thats going to high for you, lets just use you, how often are YOU invited to speak and spread the truth on just your local media, muchless international? This is the gauge that you can use to determine Jesus prophecy, but you can't use it if you are pacifying your own generation, hoping that its your generation, so that you can be included in the honor of the latterday saints.
Look at what Jesus SAID, this is what we have problems with. Our own individual desires, are greater than the scriptures. What we COVET, is a stronger delusion than the plain truth. Thats why we can't see the truth about being Born again is future tense, the Kingdom is future tense, we covet those things so strongly, we have TAKEN them by the violence of our own desires.
In 24:15-28, Jesus goes through a terrible time on earth that will come after the gospel is even preached globally. In 29-31, his second comming even occurs, and I am not totally convinced that Jesus brings the Saints immediately down to earth with him from the air, because they are caught up into the Air with him. Now there could be a space of time to still yet elapse on earth while they are in the Air with Christ, I don't know. This 1000 year period, however long it is, makes more sense to me to occur here, rather than when Jesus touches down on earth, while they are still uniteing in the Air. Anyhow, I just don't know.
But the point being, AFTER all this has occured, then Jesus states in vs. 34, " This generation shall not pass until all these are fulfilled." This is the transitional generation, and EVERYONE who has an inkling of truth within them will KNOW when these things are occuring. And if they are not caught up in the grip of self spiritual pacification, then they conversely will know when they are NOT occuring.
Peace.
Nothing against you, Mickiel! I don't like any entry that is pages long (maybe we all do it sometimes..). I guess I'm just lazy, and I skip over things that are long. Maybe I'm at the computer too much these days..
I've been thinking lately:
1: Passover---God (separate from) Man
then
2: Pentecost---God (mixed with) Man
then
3: Tabernacles---God (completely filling and ruling in) Man.
Who knows??
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 15, 2008, 06:14:03 PM
Nothing against you, Mickiel! I don't like any entry that is pages long (maybe we all do it sometimes..). I guess I'm just lazy, and I skip over things that are long. Maybe I'm at the computer too much these days..
I've been thinking lately:
1: Passover---God (separate from) Man
then
2: Pentecost---God (mixed with) Man
then
3: Tabernacles---God (completely filling and ruling in) Man.
Who knows??
Bri
Well you have been thinking along Old Covenant Holy day Lines, and trying to gain some context to bring them into New Covenant present day realitys. Which in itself, I think is a reflection of your confessed lazyness. You need to go deeper. Well you don't want to do that, so you scan the surface, and you can't get out of the Old Covenant, so you mix the two together. And you are giving relevance to things that God has taken the relevance away from, and you are taking relevance from the things God has not yet given. And I think that is because you are lazy in your study. Your mind is showing the results of your refusal to use energy in your approach to Gods word.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel!
Well, you're probably right. I think I've gotten lazy (or tired, and I'm not sure which).
At any rate, I try to keep it simple. Simple in the sense that I ask God to lead me every day; to make me grow in Him as He desires, and to be used by Him if and how He desires. Then I just sit back and watch the results.
That doesn't mean that I don't want to go deeper. It just means that I let Him take me deeper if He wants to. The best part, though, is just talking with Him. I hope to become more like Him.
Some of what you say is complicated to me, but I try to read as much of it as I can. I find your opinions rather interesting at times, too!..
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 15, 2008, 09:33:45 PM
Hi Mickiel!
Well, you're probably right. I think I've gotten lazy (or tired, and I'm not sure which).
At any rate, I try to keep it simple. Simple in the sense that I ask God to lead me every day; to make me grow in Him as He desires, and to be used by Him if and how He desires. Then I just sit back and watch the results.
That doesn't mean that I don't want to go deeper. It just means that I let Him take me deeper if He wants to. The best part, though, is just talking with Him. I hope to become more like Him.
Some of what you say is complicated to me, but I try to read as much of it as I can. I find your opinions rather interesting at times, too!..
Bri
Well I understand, but just listening to you is uncomplicated to me, and simple to comprehend why there will be complications for you.. You try and keep things simple, well thats one problem your going to have with God right off, God is not simple, the bible is not simple, our future with God is not simple, the truth is not simple. So one who " Trys" to make those things simple, which I think means you put forth some effort and energy to make them simple, is just doomed to fail in such an effort.
Then you say you ask God to use you, if he so desires, then you just sit back and watch the results. Good greif, the things I could say about that, but I don't want to hurt your feelings. You seem to think that God is interested in using lazy people. If theres one example in the bible I have never seen God use, its lazy people. There are absolutely no examples of God even being interested in Lazy people in scripture.
I am tempted to say many things here, but I understand your attention span, and your lazy eye. So I'll just say this; If you truly hope to become more like God, then you need to meet mr. Change. Mr. Change is someone not many like to meet. Because if you truly desire to become more like God, then you must be willing to Change. You can't be a couch patatoe and think your going to be like God. God is active, moving, energetic and consistantly like this. That lazy tendency you have is just going to have to die. God does not call people to be comfortable and just become " Knowledge Soakers", sopping up knowledge here and there, while they grow fat on it and expect him to do everything.
Well anyhow, good luck to you. I somehow sense your going to need it.
Peace.
You know, I was thinking myself here lately. Talk about a sign of the times, the truth can be put out for people to absorb, but instead they won't listen to it, won't have the energy to read it, won't hardly pay attention to it. And you know, when the gospel of the Kingdom is preached throughout all of the world, do you know nothings going to change the people of the world. They are going to ignore it then, as they do now. Even people in Gods church, ignore the truth, simply cannot see it, or care to see it.
Look at Matt. 38-39; " For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the Ark. And they didnot understand until the flood came and took them away, so shall the comming of the Son of Man be." People in the world, AND some in Gods church, willnot understand just what is going on. People will be " Going on with their Lives", more interested in whats for dinner or whats on TV, than in Gods Truth. And you can see the head of this sticking out now.
Listen, these things will happen like this, because the Consciousness of humanity is being " Kept off Balance", and Spiritual humanity is not exempt from this. Spiritual humanity is off into these areas of " Choking on knats", or being thrown off by issues that shouldnot be issues. Paying attention to the spinning of those forces that are against God
, but know how to appear as God.
The BEST way to keep a Spiritual person off balance, is to " Keep the floor Spiritual", and keep it slippery.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel:
All I know is, if I study too much, I start to feel dizzy. And no matter what anyone says about flat computer screens, my eyes aren't what they used to be either.
It's not that I "try" to keep things simple; it's just that long complicated things are started to weigh on me. I do better piece by piece.
(Gosh, and I'm only 37!)
Look, if the Kingdom of God is all about working hard and studying deep things, I don't think I'll make it. I just want to BE and BE with Him. Anything more, it might get rough for me..
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 16, 2008, 12:34:29 PM
Hi Mickiel:
All I know is, if I study too much, I start to feel dizzy. And no matter what anyone says about flat computer screens, my eyes aren't what they used to be either.
It's not that I "try" to keep things simple; it's just that long complicated things are started to weigh on me. I do better piece by piece.
(Gosh, and I'm only 37!)
Look, if the Kingdom of God is all about working hard and studying deep things, I don't think I'll make it. I just want to BE and BE with Him. Anything more, it might get rough for me..
Brian
Oh you'll make it, that much is garenteed. To some, the Kingdom of God is rest, they see no need to " Do" anything. See no need to worry about anything, and take no thought about sinning, because they know their sin is forgiven. And they make no efforts, no effort to overcome anything, no effort to grow, no effort to try themselves, because they are relaxerd in Christ, and feel that Jesus does all those things for them. Jesus will fill them, complette them, guide them, and feed them, in this mindset, hey, why should the pertson even think of doing things, Jesus has them covered. They don't study, they don't pray much, why should they, they are being served by heaven already, they are Kings already, why should a King make any effort in any area?
When the mindset is that all is laid before you, then it creates" I just want to BE and Be with him."
All the person needs then is a harp, and they will continue doing nothing in the Kingdom for all eternity.
Anyhow, I have enjoyed speaking with you and wish you well, I have nothing to offer you. The things I deal with , require than much more be given from the mind that observes it.
Peace.
Mickiel:
Why do you say that you have nothing to offer me? I am learning much from you (moreso when your posts are short..)
I don't say that I don't try to learn. I do want to learn, what I am able to learn.
Some post things on this forum that you need a Ph.D. in philosopy to grasp. (And hours of free time to read!)
But that's not for me. And if it's not for me, it's probably not for many (common) people, because I think I'm pretty average.
And if it's not for many, how important is it?
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 16, 2008, 05:08:01 PM
Mickiel:
Why do you say that you have nothing to offer me? I am learning much from you (moreso when your posts are short..)
I don't say that I don't try to learn. I do want to learn, what I am able to learn.
Some post things on this forum that you need a Ph.D. in philosopy to grasp. (And hours of free time to read!)
But that's not for me. And if it's not for me, it's probably not for many (common) people, because I think I'm pretty average.
And if it's not for many, how important is it?
Bri
Well I think I am pretty average myself. I don't even have Gods Spirit yet, I hold no degrees, most of my work life has been spent either climbing trees or doing housekeeping, I am not part of any group. I think I am common also. But I am interested in God, and will take the time to consider him. Its nothing I can do with a mind that willnot take the time to consider. Most of the people will not take the time, so for the most, your right, its not important, so I am not involved with that group. So I kindly excused myself from you. In your mind, I am in that group which " Deals with Philosophy", and I understand that. I like to go deep into Gods word, I like to spend the time digging and searching. I like the things that you do not like doing, so we are not for each other. And there is no harm done in that, we all willnot walk together.
Some are content with just waking up in the mourning, and leave it at that. Just thankful for that. I am not like that. I want to know why I am alive, how long will I live. What is the sky, what lies beyond the sky. What is Life, why is Life, and every single thing I can learn about these and more. It is said that the Life of an Elephant is just one continous Feast, they live to eat. Well my time in the flesh is simular, I live to learn about the things of God. It is one continous Feast. Can I then relate to people who are not like this? Well yes, I can, most of the people I deal with are not like this. I may not be very good at relating to them, espically when they require certain limitations from you, in order for you to deal with them, but I try.
Anyhow, I am too long with you. I am not for you, you are not for me, thats just how it is. There is no importance that can be passed between us, you have your ways, I have mine, and I have kindly reconized that, well perhaps not so kindly, and I apoligise for that, but we must understand when we are not for someone. We can't push ourselves on others. I think that is one thing that tends to ruin relationships, when we think it just has to work. You have to know when to walk away, there will be someone for you, and someone for the other. I run into more who are not for me, than I do those who are. But the work goes on, life goes on. We just keep doing what we do, and for those who do nothing, they will continue also. So our importance does not lay inside of others evaluation, our Adaquacy comes from God.
Peace to you.
What you say about relationships between people is kinda' what I say about our relationship with God. We don't need to try to force it. If He made us, why do we need to struggle to know about Him or strive in order to be accepted by Him?
No, we will not all walk together. Still, it's nice to hear other experiences. Some don't share at all, and that makes me sad.
Some people want to change how others think. That's an ugly, egotistical area that I hope to not wander into anymore; it's caused me enough problems in the past..
Today, I just like to compare experiences. And every now and then, I think we (all) grow from those exchanges as a result.
And I think that most of us here are here because we have something of God in our hearts to share.
Blessings!
Bri
P.S. I don't see you as part of the philosophy group. You just write a lot. Some write a lot, and are confusing, too!
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 16, 2008, 06:32:24 PM
Blessings!
Bri
P.S. I don't see you as part of the philosophy group. You just write a lot. Some write a lot, and are confusing, too!
A good journey to you.
Peace.
Mickiel:
Please understand, I'm not telling you that you shouldn't write a lot. -It's just that I'm lazy and I skip over the long posts, even if they're interesting!
Still, I try to learn where I can!
If you prefer, I'll stop posting to you.
Blessings!
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 16, 2008, 09:30:39 PM
Mickiel:
Please understand, I'm not telling you that you shouldn't write a lot. -It's just that I'm lazy and I skip over the long posts, even if they're interesting!
Still, I try to learn where I can!
If you prefer, I'll stop posting to you.
Blessings!
Bri
I understand everything you have stated. I have not asked that you stop posting to me, I have only admitted that I am long winded, you are short in reading, thus we have no match with each other. This is what I have stated, its reality as it is. I am not going to stop writting, I just willnot respond to you in long terms, as you have requested. You have your limitations, you need things to be in a way that is pleasing to you, I understand that. You need to have things ordered in a way that fits into your comfort zone, I understand that.
I am only saying that I am not like you. I can read all day and all night, and can write just as much. It is not the length of things that turn me off, its the context. So I am nothing like you, you are turned off by length. So I only have gone by what you have expressed about yourself, by this I know I have nothing to offer you. By that I really meant nothing further, because when you are getting tired, I am not even hardly getting started. So we walk differing paths of intrest. I am not short winded, but I am inclinded to respect what people require of me. So out of respect for you, I say a little bit, and say no more.
If this is not what you want, then explain to me what you now require?
Peace.
Hi again!
I'm glad you still want to write.
I don't require anything from anyone (I hope). I do like to converse with people about things that are close to the heart. I have seen people build walls of scriptures around themselves. (Not you.) And when they have to speak personally, they can't. So I think, where is the love?
Some may have a message of love, and so I get interested. But at times there is so much writing (again, not you) that I get tired. Example: www.goodnewsinc.net I'd like to read some of the articles there, they talk about God's grace and they even bring out some scriptures that most people never even mention. But look at the length of those pages! Uffah! And I don't always have time, either.
Personally, I just like conversing. It can happen when you get a moment, it can be meaningful, even spiritual, and if there's a revelation or word or something to share, all the better!
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 16, 2008, 10:44:12 PM
Hi again!
I'm glad you still want to write.
I don't require anything from anyone (I hope). I do like to converse with people about things that are close to the heart. I have seen people build walls of scriptures around themselves. (Not you.) And when they have to speak personally, they can't. So I think, where is the love?
Some may have a message of love, and so I get interested. But at times there is so much writing (again, not you) that I get tired. Example: www.goodnewsinc.net I'd like to read some of the articles there, they talk about God's grace and they even bring out some scriptures that most people never even mention. But look at the length of those pages! Uffah! And I don't always have time, either.
Personally, I just like conversing. It can happen when you get a moment, it can be meaningful, even spiritual, and if there's a revelation or word or something to share, all the better!
Bri
Well I have read the writings of John of Goodnews Inc., my goodness, I am nowhere near as long as he is. He writes volumes, I write paragraphs in installments. But I am always for real with it, I hold no intrest in style or volume, only substance. In fact I make concious efforts to be short. But I understand where you are comming from, I really do. And I really am different than you, the volumes don't bother me, If I am interested , I'll read it, if not, I won't. One sentence can turn me off from something, just as if I am interested, then 10 books on the subject is not enough. But I too grow tired of reading useless material, but not of good material. I don't read a lot, but when I do, I enjoy it. I just finished a good book by Andrew Shaprio, " We are Number One". Its a book about everything America is number one in, Good and Bad areas. A very interesting satistical read, and the book is perhaps over 10 years old. Its a stunning read, and I reconmend it, well not to you, but to those who like reading.
I also just finished " Biblical Archaeology", a pictorial guide to biblical archaeology by Robert T. Boyd, and it was written in 1969, so I kind of like the old stuff. But its an excellent read and shows how Archaeology literally proves that the Bible is historically valid. I reconmend it also, a stimulating read that solidifys your belief in the bible as the word of God. It shows many actual pictures of biblical evidence from the past. And I am in the middle of another exciting read by Julian Jaynes on the Consciousness of Man, oh how this man has opened much in me.
But I don't wish to bore you with such things. I am also about to read 11 Conan the Barbarian Comics I bought today. I think the Conan Mags are amoung the best done by Marvel. I enjoy with no end reading them. Then I give them away or trade them for more. But God first pricked my intrest in reading, with the Conan Comic Books when I was 12 years old. I am now 52, and still read them until this day. I can take a stack of them, begin reading at 7:00 pm, and go until 2:am in the mourning, and thourouhly enjoy myself, doing nothingelse but enjoying the writing, the characther, the drawings, my imagination and the Ice Cream.
Anyhow, peace.
I think the ice cream sparks my interest the most. :) Ice cream here in Italy beats American ice cream hands down, IMHO. (That doesn't mean I'd reject an offer for a dish of cookie dough right now..)
I too like to read things if they touch something in me. I find myself skimming most long things just to see if it has "meat" in it- if it does, I read it with more attention. If it's really helpful (maybe like Julian Jaynes for you). then I might even re-read it a couple of times. It depends on the length.
Can you tell me about the Julian Jaynes book?
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly linkdepends on the length.
Can you tell me about the Julian Jaynes book?
Bri
/quote]
Now this is a challange to keep this short and simple. Julian Jaynes was a princeton university professor , who has recently died. His best work, in my view, was " The Orgin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind." Jaynes central Idea is that our modern type of consciousness is a recent development and began no more than 3,000 years ago. Before that human mentality was charactherized by auditory and visual images within the mind, and hardly no vocal skills comming out of the mouth. Their minds were split in two ( The Bicameral Mind). A result of a dissociation between the left and right hemispheres of the Brain. In laymans terms, they were alive but had no consciousness. Their decisions , plans and initatives were developed at the unconsciuous level, much like animals.
What fascinated me about his concepts, is that I think it explains the existance of humans before Adam, because Archaeology proves that humans existed long before Adam did. But I don't think God gave them consciousness, I think Adam and Eve were the first humans to have Conscious thought, or individual active consciousness which could communicate both inward and outward, holding accumulitive intelligence.
Peace.
Wow! I think this is the first time someone talked of man existing 'before Adam,' at least in a physical realm! (Usually we talk about our existance with God before being placed on the Earth, which is something different.)
I have read a bit on human communication, and how we communicate with each other both analogically (body expression and emotion) and digitally (language). It's a subject that has always remained fascinating to me. Try saying "I love you" to someone without using words! (Sign language doesn't count..)
Maybe God expressed His love towards us in analogical form by dying for us! (I suppose the Bible would be the a digital form.)
I know that the left side of the brain is logical, and the right side is creative. Maybe before Adam, humans didn't have a developed left-brain??
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 17, 2008, 05:42:37 PM
Wow! I think this is the first time someone talked of man existing 'before Adam,' at least in a physical realm! (Usually we talk about our existance with God before being placed on the Earth, which is something different.)
I
Well man defintely did exist before Adam. Through history I think we can trace the timeframe from Adams creation to have been around 6,000 years ago. And the bible is an important historical archeological tool to help us do that. But Archaeology defintely proves beyond a shadow of doubt in my mind, that there were untold of numbers of humans who lived far before Adam did. That confused me for a long time, but after reading Julian Jaynes, that piece of the puzzle plugged a hole in my mind.
Again, I know many will not see this, but that is no concern of mine. The Neanderthall and Cromanon man, didnot hold consciousness as we do. They were not on our level of existence, they just were not. Now, why God did this, I have no ideal whatsoever, absolutely none. Its just a mystery to me, but I understand a little more of it now, than I did then, I pray that Pace continue in the comming years.
Adam and Eve were the first humans created " In Gods Image AND Likeness", but they were not the first humans created. " In the Beginning God created Man" just covers more ground than we are aware of.
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteWell man defintely did exist before Adam.
:laughing7: Well Mickiel, there are some (me included) who do not think man defintely existed before Adam, and we refer to the science that says otherwise as:
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of
science falsely so called:
If Paul, whom had revelation beyong any man I know, of the true reality we live in, didn't even say science was wrong, but rather that this craft we call science is falsely called science (pertaining to the definition of science), then I shall say the same as well.
Man defintely did not exist before Adam.
And the falsely called science of today has made itself into one of the biggest anti-God force in this world (even to a point of that being its whole point, that is disproving God), saying the universe came from an infinetely dense particle that had a big bang and created the universe, but neglecting to even comprehend the obsurdity that they haven't explained where that infinetely dense particle came from. In today's scientific community its ok to say nearly anything, just as long as you don't mention God....if you do, gasps of horror and spiritual insanity would fill whichever room you were talking about this with your fellow "scientists". Science (falsly called) and God are not friends. Nor can one serve two masters.
Quote from: Mickiel on January 16, 2008, 05:50:09 PM
Well I think I am pretty average myself. I don't even have Gods Spirit yet, I hold no degrees, most of my work life has been spent either climbing trees or doing housekeeping, I am not part of any group. I think I am common also. But I am interested in God, and will take the time to consider him. Its nothing I can do with a mind that willnot take the time to consider. Most of the people will not take the time, so for the most, your right, its not important, so I am not involved with that group. So I kindly excused myself from you. In your mind, I am in that group which " Deals with Philosophy", and I understand that. I like to go deep into Gods word, I like to spend the time digging and searching. I like the things that you do not like doing, so we are not for each other. And there is no harm done in that, we all willnot walk together.
Some are content with just waking up in the mourning, and leave it at that. Just thankful for that. I am not like that. I want to know why I am alive, how long will I live. What is the sky, what lies beyond the sky. What is Life, why is Life, and every single thing I can learn about these and more. It is said that the Life of an Elephant is just one continous Feast, they live to eat. Well my time in the flesh is simular, I live to learn about the things of God. It is one continous Feast. Can I then relate to people who are not like this? Well yes, I can, most of the people I deal with are not like this. I may not be very good at relating to them, espically when they require certain limitations from you, in order for you to deal with them, but I try.
Anyhow, I am too long with you. I am not for you, you are not for me, thats just how it is. There is no importance that can be passed between us, you have your ways, I have mine, and I have kindly reconized that, well perhaps not so kindly, and I apoligise for that, but we must understand when we are not for someone. We can't push ourselves on others. I think that is one thing that tends to ruin relationships, when we think it just has to work. You have to know when to walk away, there will be someone for you, and someone for the other. I run into more who are not for me, than I do those who are. But the work goes on, life goes on. We just keep doing what we do, and for those who do nothing, they will continue also. So our importance does not lay inside of others evaluation, our Adaquacy comes from God.
Peace to you.
I'm trying to finish some other writing for here but had to get this bit out now.
I feel in great sympathy with what you are saying here and would explain more if I get time. It's so late now! But I must lament your saying: "I don't even have Gods Spirit yet..."
For you, to think of God as Realm and Ruler is not right, in other words, The Kingdom of God is entirely future. Also you seemingly think that there is at present no regenerating work of the Holy Spirit within us (what is often called "The New Birth" by many.) This seems so contrary to Scripture and is such a plundering of our more important gifts and graces from God. Now you seem to think one can't have the Holy Spirit? On the day of Pentecost Peter said it was promised to even, "..all those afar, whosoever the Lord our God should be calling." (Act 2:39)
Without the Holy Spirit there would be no "Ecclesia" and Jesus would just be a historical footnote, only a philosopher of some value. Having the Holy Spirit is the primary difference between the true Church and Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Whores.
Quote from: reFORMer
/quote]
I'm trying to finish some other writing for here but had to get this bit out now.
I feel in great sympathy with what you are saying here and would explain more if I get time. It's so late now! But I must lament your saying: "I don't even have Gods Spirit yet..."
For you, to think of God as Realm and Ruler is not right, in other words, The Kingdom of God is entirely future. Also you seemingly think that there is at present no regenerating work of the Holy Spirit within us (what is often called "The New Birth" by many.) This seems so contrary to Scripture and is such a plundering of our more important gifts and graces from God. Now you seem to think one can't have the Holy Spirit? On the day of Pentecost Peter said it was promised to even, "..all those afar, whosoever the Lord our God should be calling." (Act 2:39)
Without the Holy Spirit there would be no "Ecclesia" and Jesus would just be a historical footnote, only a philosopher of some value. Having the Holy Spirit is the primary difference between the true Church and Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Whores.
Well I must admit, I do personally doubt that the Holy Spirit has made its move yet, but thats just what I am being shown. Thats just me, so you can excuse it and write it off as whatever you wish, it should be no harm done, if the Spirit is there, its there. I just am not totally convinced that it is.
Oh its going to make its move, and when it does, the people will know it. Because its too much power not to notice it.
But let me say this. If I had to explain why there is no church of God now organized, why there is no solid unity amoung those who accept this way, why there is not a 100 percent clear vision on interpiting the Scriptures, I would say because the Holy Spirit has not rained down as of yet, and that would explain it all to me.
Hey, but thats just me.
But then what would that make all the prior claims from those who have spoken that they already have the Spirit? Well I think you know the answer to that.
Peace.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 18, 2008, 07:34:10 AM
quote Mickiel
QuoteWell man defintely did exist before Adam.
:laughing7: Well Mickiel, there are some (me included) who do not think man defintely existed before Adam, and we refer to the science that says otherwise as:
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
If Paul, whom had revelation beyong any man I know, of the true reality we live in, didn't even say science was wrong, but rather that this craft we call science is falsely called science (pertaining to the definition of science), then I shall say the same as well.
Man defintely did not exist before Adam.
Well I respectfully disagree with you on this, and I agree with the Archeologist, and the scientist. The proof and the evidence is there, the finds are there, and the dates of the finds are documented. They have actually found frozen men who were over 10,000 years old. I am not frozen in my mind by the traditional view of the Bible, and I am not pushing my views on you or anyonelse. I simply shared what I believe. It matters not to me who accepts it.
The truth is, that God created humans long before he created Adam, but those humans did not have Consciousness. They were closer to animals with instinct, thats all they had. Which really fits the discription of a cave man, in my mind. Adam was the first man created with Consciousness, therefore he really was the first true " Human in Gods Image and Likeness", but he was not the first human being.
This is what I believe.
Peace.
In 1959, Phil Orr, curator of anthropology at Santa Barbra museum, discovered the partial skeletal remains of an ancient woman in North America. Those remains were shown to be 10,000 years old. Using recent technology in radiocarbon dating, they reanalyzed those remains and found them to be over 13,000 years old, making them the oldest human remains found in North America.
You know, things like this need to challange the stubborn belief systems of many, and ignite within a desire to know the real truth, not to cover your mind in some kind of shell, as if what you already know , is the end of that knowledge.
This woman lived during the end of the Pleistocene era. Do you know what that means? She was alive when the large herds of Bison and Woolly Mammoths roamed the earth. And Archceologist have unearth the actual bones and teeth of these Woolly Mammoths, so our ignorance does not cancel out these realitys. They exist, because God created them. And he created them long before he created Adam.
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteThe truth is, that God created humans long before he created Adam, but those humans did not have Consciousness. They were closer to animals with instinct, thats all they had. Which really fits the discription of a cave man, in my mind. Adam was the first man created with Consciousness, therefore he really was the first true " Human in Gods Image and Likeness", but he was not the first human being.
This is what I believe.
If this is what you believe then so be it, but I beg you not to cover your mind in some kind of science shell - - but the truth is that God did not create humans long before he created Adam
The science falsely called is flawed and therfore produces and announces flawed data to the public - the science falsely called is of this world and therefore lies to confuse and deceive people and keep them in bondage. New graduates are brainwashed and given faulty methods of determining the age of things, so its not that all are intentionally deceiving, but nonetheless their methods are flawed - its like the blind leading the blind.
How do you know that your not being fed lies? Have you understood that this woman lived during the end of the Pleistocene era? Or have you just been told so by others? Have you understood how, when or what the "Pleistocene" era is, or have you been told it exists by others? Have you considered that they could be lying to you?They are always talking about missing links (which aren't missing, they just aren't there) and yet miss out on the fact that it is their scientific assumptions which are wrong. Their dating methods are flawed. They can't even explain the spirit, nor the spiritual things that have dominated the earth since history and yet think they may say with assurance that there is no God. They admit that there are no records of civilization before Sumeria (southern Iraq), and yet they say humans have existed for 10's of thousands of years. And where do they get the idea for these humans from 10's of thoasands of years old? From flawed dating techniques. They can't even explain why there are such heavy metals on earth, and yet come up with an explanation anyways, that cannot be proven and therefore is not very scientific. I read an arcticle by a Petroleum Engineer whom went to a prominent university in the 1970's, whom said that his professor taught him in 25 years all oil reserves in the world would be depleted (that would mean there should be no oil left as we speak here in 2008) - - hey no problem, if it doesn't come to pass, they just change their story. They say that we have evolved from blue-green algae, and yet we see that blue-green algae is the most abundant organism on earth and even given millions of years would have had no reason to change into us to survive. I could list examples for days as to why it is science falsely called. Lets remember that these are entire fields and thousands and millions whom must justify everyday - the reason they should get a paycheck. But I'm not throwing out the Word of God for their lies, no thanks.
This is what I believe.
quote Mickiel
QuoteBut then what would that make all the prior claims from those who have spoken that they already have the Spirit? Well I think you know the answer to that.
Yes, I can see what your awnser is to that - you are calling us liars, insane, wicked, or decieved. Has to be one of the four right?
You are wrong.
You claim to not have the spirit, and yet judge others whom know they have the spirit, and in this you feel approved, and feel you have much knowledge to share with us so that we may be enlightened? Alot of your statements are firm and authoritative saying "This is the truth" or "The truth is" - but don't claim to have these truths from the spirit, but rather from science falsely called which changes its mind on "truth", rather its theories every day.
Your trust is in science (falsely called). Not Gods Word. You feel you must bring these two together, when God has purposefully set aside the wisdom of this world (science falsely called) to be foolishness and has no intention of bringing it together in harmony with his Word, but rather, at the appropriate time shall reveal to all that the wisdom of this world is foolishness. It pleases God for now that his Word and the things of the Holy Spirit are thought of as foolish for now, as this is what he intended.
If your revelation is that no person alive today has the Holy Spirit, then I beg you to seek
until you find, as many alive today have received the Holy Spirit.
Quote from:
Yes, I can see what your awnser is to that - you are calling us liars, insane, wicked, or decieved. Has to be one of the four right?
You are wrong.
.
/quote]
I have called no one here anything of the sort. And I may well be wrong, but its still what I believe. Its what I see, its what makes the most sense to me. I need not call any of you anything, because it matters not to me what you are, that only matters to yourselves.
You say you are annointed and called and chosen of God, I only say I seriously doubt that, but it may be. But I doubt it. It may come in the future, but speaking for myself, I just don't see it now.
As far as having knowledge to share, what could an outsider share with the self professed people of God?
I am unworthy to wipe your Holy Feet.
Peace.
quote arcticmonster2003
QuoteYes, I can see what your awnser is to that - you are calling us liars, insane, wicked, or decieved. Has to be one of the four right?
quote Mickiel
QuoteI have called no one here anything of the sort. And I may well be wrong, but its still what I believe. Its what I see, its what makes the most sense to me. I need not call any of you anything, because it matters not to me what you are, that only matters to yourselves.
No, you have not written those words directly, but instead leave room for only those 4 options, if your beliefs are correct, as you believe them to be, by telling us this:
quote Mickiel
QuoteBut then what would that make all the prior claims from those who have spoken that they already have the Spirit? Well I think you know the answer to that.
Now I did not say that all apply to each person, but only perhaps one of those to each individual person whom claims to have the Holy Spirit - for example one may think he does, but does not, IE he is deceived, or one may know they do not but are embarressed to admit it IE a liar, or one may know he does not but seeks to spread his own agenda and by claiming his words are of the Spirit, IE wicked, or else one does not but is just insane - - there are many variations of these but I do believe those 4 words liar, insane, wicked, and deceived are about the only options available "if" you were correct and those whom claim they have the Holy Spirit do not.
quote Mickiel
QuoteYou say you are annointed and called and chosen of God, I only say I seriously doubt that, but it may be. But I doubt it. It may come in the future, but speaking for myself, I just don't see it now.
As far as having knowledge to share, what could an outsider share with the self professed people of God?
I am unworthy to wipe your Holy Feet.
I see some of that spirit that you are partaking of (the spirit of this world), is starting to make itself known, for all to see. This amount of sarcasm and spite, almost to the point of despising those whom are filled with the Holy Spirit in my opinion are what I would expect from the spirit of this world.
The spirit of the world seeks to destroy the faith of believers (and oh how it
despises the faith of believers), and the spirit that coming from you Mickiel is seeking to destroy the very faith of Childred filled with the Holy Spirit, to make them doubt that they are even filled with the Holy Spirit - - and is seeking to deal them a harsh blow to their faith. I'm not saying this is your intention Mickiel, but it is the intention of the spirit that you are under currently.
[quote author=arcticmonster2003
I see some of that spirit that you are partaking of (the spirit of this world), is starting to make itself known, for all to see. This amount of sarcasm and spite, almost to the point of despising those whom are filled with the Holy Spirit in my opinion are what I would expect from the spirit of this world.
[/quote]
Make itself known, if you are trying to uncover my sins or weaknesses, you have but to ask, I hide nothing from any of you. For what? Why should I try to appear amoung you, what I am not, what would that benefit me? I am a sinner, and I have not progressed beyond that point. I already know I am of this world, and have made no claims otherwise.
You are the one who have made the Holy Spiritual claims, and you are the one who enjoys my weaknesses.
Peace.
I do not enjoy your "weakness" as you put it. This would be twisted. I simply saw you posting supposed "truths", based on science falsly called and lest no rebuttal be make, many Children might have taken no rebuttal as agreement by everyone here.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003
The spirit of the world seeks to destroy the faith of believers (and oh how itb]despises [/b] the faith of believers), and the spirit that coming from you Mickiel is seeking to destroy the very faith of Childred filled with the Holy Spirit, to make them doubt that they are even filled with the Holy Spirit - - and is seeking to deal them a harsh blow to their faith. I'm not saying this is your intention Mickiel, but it is the intention of the spirit that you are under currently.
I do not seek to destroy, I simply post what I believe, like anyoneslse does. I believe what I post, they are not attacks, they are not efforts to deal harsh blows, they are what I see as the truth.
If that truth hurts you or anyonelse, then it is not me who supplies their weak faith, let God deal with their faith if it is destroyed. What kind of faith was it if one like me can destroy it anyway? No, your just shaken by something, I wonder what it is?
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteI do not seek to destroy, I simply post what I believe, like anyoneslse does. I believe what I post, they are not attacks, they are not efforts to deal harsh blows, they are what I see as the truth.
If that truth hurts you or anyonelse, then it is not me who supplies their weak faith, let God deal with their faith if it is destroyed. What kind of faith was it if one like me can destroy it anyway? No, your just shaken by something, I wonder what it is?
For those whom know that all things are spiritual Mickiel, that spirit of the world is really making itself known today here at this forum.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 19, 2008, 03:18:59 AM
quote Mickiel
QuoteI do not seek to destroy, I simply post what I believe, like anyoneslse does. I believe what I post, they are not attacks, they are not efforts to deal harsh blows, they are what I see as the truth.
If that truth hurts you or anyonelse, then it is not me who supplies their weak faith, let God deal with their faith if it is destroyed. What kind of faith was it if one like me can destroy it anyway? No, your just shaken by something, I wonder what it is?
For those whom know that all things are spiritual Mickiel, that spirit of the world is really making itself known today here at this forum.
Well let me help you fight that Spirit.
I am not associated with Tentmaker in any way whatsoever. I am not a part of this place, and no one here. My views are my own.
I hope this helps the " Children" you claim concern for.
Peace.
Well, I love both of you! How's that?
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 19, 2008, 09:49:48 AM
Well, I love both of you! How's that?
Brian
Well I love you back.
Listen, let me explain something to you. I bring meat to the table to share, and those who don't want to eat it, such is their right. I don't bring it to cause others to choke, I bring it because its what I am eating. What I share at Tentmaker, I don't hardly share anywherelse, because I believe those here are able to at least chew on it. If I didnot think so, then I wouldnot just toss anything out, as if it was garbagge.
I was hungry for the Truth some years ago, and I was led here, and found Meat. Long before you got here, I was here, and I needed that Meat, because I was gasping and throwing up the milk, because the milk was spoiled. At the time , I didn't know it was spoiled, I just knew something was wrong with what I was digesting in this worlds system of knowledge.
So I began to consume and to learn. That process has not stopped. When I come here to share, I bring Meat to share, NOT with intentions to hurt others, or change their beliefs, I am only sharing. If a person brings something to the table that you don't like, or don't agree with, then don't partake of it. But don't accuse them of trying to " Choke Children", because they bring Meat.
The choking I have experienced was good for me, because it teachs me several things. To examine more closely what I eat, and to know the condition I am in, to be choking in the first place.
I don't make excuses for myself, I am real an forthcomming about who I am. I tell people all the time, I am not converted, not Christian, and do not have Gods Spirit. If I was trying to lead people away from God or the Truth, why , in the name of common sense, would I tell them those things about myself? If I was on a crusade to " Fill this place with a worldly Spirit", good greif, I could think of better wats to accomplish that, than by putting myself down.
I really believe everything I write, I am not playing with anyone here. I believe God has not rained down his Spirit on people, but also believe he may have " Sprinkled it some." I believe God created humans before Adam, but last year I didnot totally believe that. And the year before I didnot believe it at all. And I don't know what next year will bring. I believe that the human remains that have been found, are not elaborate fabrications or imitations, they are humans. So I knew something was not " Adding up" right with this time table of creation, as opposed to our interpitation of it. I was led to see other possibilitys, and I accept the one of God creating humans who had no consciousness. They were human, but not created in Gods Image and Likeness.
When God said " Let us Create Man in OUR Likeness", that leaves room for humans to have already been created, but just not in Gods Image. And it EXPLIANS the existence of what archaeology keeps finding. And it opens more truth to me, it does not repulse me or frighten me.
And I apoligise if it has done that to you.
Peace.
Let me say somethingelse concerning this. There are all kinds of topics on this board everyday. I read most all of them, and comment on those which intrest me. Some post I agree with, many I don't. I don't go around this board trying to find things I disagree with, chasing people and branding them things, just because of my disagreement. Its a discussion board, its a table to feast on , holding all types of food. If I think the food is junk, I simply don't eat it. Whoever placed it on the table, does not matter to me, the food is just not for me.
You think if I had Gods Holy Spirit, and some joker told me that I didnot, that I would care? If I had Gods Spirit, I couldcareless what anybody thought about it. But you have to believe in what it is your believing.
Listen, I don't know God, but I know some things about him. One thing I know for sure, is that he don't look too kindly on people who intentionally mislead his people, or ANY peoples. Some people are just going to have to come off of this aittitude of " We all should see things the same way." I don't know where that has come from, but it sure is not true. Did you know that God will intentionally teach different things to different people, no matter even if they have the same Spirit. Peter and Paul had the same Spirit teaching them, but they disagreed on things. When John was taken in the Spirit to be taught Revelations, he was not shown what the other disciples and Apostles were shown. It was a whole new deal. Paul was shown things that no onelse was shown, and the people had trouble believing him. I personally wouldnot have listened to Paul at that time. Here you have a joker who was killing the believers one week, and then being called of God the next. Its no way I would have trusted Paul, not me. It would have took me some time to get into Paul, and I am sure thats WHY some brothers had problems believing him.
Anyhow, I am not saying these things to get people to listen to me, but only to understand that disagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.
Peace.
Mickiel, I understand you do not believe any person has yet obtained the Holy Spirit, because you have not witnessed great works from those same or that you are just not seeing what you expect to see from Spirit filled individuals. Did you ever think about this one - all the epistles were written to people whom were acknowledged to have received the Holy Spirit, as a pledge, and yet they struggled, sinned, were always fighting, sueing each other and such, they did not have the same power and authority that was seen in deed in the apostles, whom were walking more closely to the will of God, and yet it is the apostles whom told us those babes did indeed have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge - for the hope of what is yet to come. Just because one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit does not mean they are completely walking in Spirit, doing only the will of God, and it does not mean that God yet intends great works (of his) to yet be accomplished through those whom are not yet tried, refined and perfected - It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that believers are converted, it is that which speaks truth to the unbelievers, imparting spiritual truth, so they know that it is the truth - The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge, and this initial pledge is what you seem to be confusing with the perfected man. IMO.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 20, 2008, 12:03:29 AM
Mickiel, I understand you do not believe any person has yet obtained the Holy Spirit, because you have not witnessed great works from those same or that you are just not seeing what you expect to see from Spirit filled individuals. Did you ever think about this one - all the epistles were written to people whom were acknowledged to have received the Holy Spirit, as a pledge, and yet they struggled, sinned, were always fighting, sueing each other and such, they did not have the same power and authority that was seen in deed in the apostles, whom were walking more closely to the will of God, and yet it is the apostles whom told us those babes did indeed have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge - for the hope of what is yet to come. Just because one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit does not mean they are completely walking in Spirit, doing only the will of God, and it does not mean that God yet intends great works (of his) to yet be accomplished through those whom are not yet tried, refined and perfected - It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that believers are converted, it is that which speaks truth to the unbelievers, imparting spiritual truth, so they know that it is the truth - The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge, and this initial pledge is what you seem to be confusing with the perfected man. IMO.
Well yes, I have considered that. And seriously considered it. Of course we know that I cannot just judge every person on earth and believe what I do from that Judgement. That would be callous of me, yes. I am judging the Holy Spirit itself, what I know and understand its power to be, and I don't think I am overating it, if anything, I am underestimating it. Based on the Scripture, I don't see a Holy Spirit movement, and I firmly believe that such a movement would be like a great Light on earth, it CANNOT be Hidden. It cannot be declassified, or given a type of Hiding place, its going to stand out. So much so, that God will have to later hide them.
Now, I do believe that God is " With Many", that the Spirit is with them, working with them, guiding and leading them, influencing them, but I am not convinced that it is " In" them. Now granted, thats just me, my view, how I am impressed by this. Could I be wrong, oh goodness, yes. I don't doubt that for one second. I just don't believe " Totally" that the dispensation of the Holy Spirit, as far as being totally placed into individuals, has begun as of yet. Because when it does, I expect to see some amazing things comming out of people, and some real Spiritual change. Some power, some gifts, and these things at their fullest. I believe this.
And listen, you know good and well, just because I believe this, does not make me some kind of nut , spreading worldly things that deteriate others. I believe in the Holy Spirit, and I think we underate what it will do to a person. That is how I know I don't have it. Look at how I have spoken to you. I could have had more Love, I didnot, more Patience, I didnot, more trying to understand you, I didnot. If I had Gods Spirit, oh good greif, those things would have been simple for me to do. They are not easy for me, because I lack those fruits. And I think thats why we struggle so much, strive so much.
Peace.
Quotedisagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.
Oh, that Christendom could understand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 20, 2008, 01:37:07 AM
Quotedisagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.
Oh, that Christendom could understand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian
Well yes, but I suggest that understanding shouldnot be " A competition", where Gods knowledge is concerned. A thing like, who knows what and why they know it or not. You may wonder why Christendom does not seem to be aware of something that you are, conversely they may feel the same about you. And it turns into a battleground, and when believers war, who really wins? The stage may be set, and the future reveals that both sides were wrong about the particular, in such a case, satan can be declared the winner, and he licks his chops as we shake our heads in discuss and shame. Failing to study to show ourselves as moving into areas of confidence where we move beyond shame, we rely on the Holy Spirit to compensate for their lack, as if we hold none ourselves. Then we act as if the Spirit should support us, because of who we think we are.
Let me say this about Christiandom, or any believers that one may think is misguided by inncorrect knowledge. There is a principal, indeed a standard, which I think is often more effective than knowledge. In 1Pet. 3:1;" In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives." Vs.2; " As they observe YOUR chaste and respectful behavior."
The principle here is one of " Convincing by Conduct", not by the bible or our mouths. I believe when the Holy Spirit enters, the Fruits of it will exit, or come out of the person, through mostly their behavior. Its what comes out of a person that deceives them, AND others. Conversely, when the Fruits of the Spirit are comming out of a person, explain to yourself, or ask yourself, how could that possibly deceive? The chase conduct, or the results of the Spirit within, will overshadow all deception, and rule any moment, any situation.
I believe we fail to do this in our conduct, because its not chase. Notice Phil.4:23;" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be " With Your Spirit." This is where I think the true followers of Christ are, his Spirit is " With their Spirit", and that leaves so much room for our Spirit to do what we do, and do it wrong so many times. But listen, when our Spirit, IS his Spirit, oh my goodness, even Christiandom will be effected by our behavior, muchless our words.
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteAnyhow, I am not saying these things to get people to listen to me, but only to understand that disagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.
I am glad that you also do not see these things in black and white, but that there are some grey areas, when you say that disagreement is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil you are of course correct, and the key words there are "not always", as sometimes these disagreements do indeed produce evil or are evil in nature and spirit.
quote Mickiel
Quotelet God deal with their faith if it is destroyed
God will deal with his believers, and we already know that there are many trials and temptations, sufferings and falls. But I would not want to be the source of one's fall, and if brought to my attention that I was hurting the
faith in God, or their
faith in the core fundamentals of the Gospel (without the indwelling Holy Spirit their is no Gospel) of believers then I would perk up and take notice of my actions and words, and examine thouroughly where I was standing before God.
Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come;
but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!Jesus Christ is the Son of the Eternal Father - he is King of King, and Lord of Lords - he gives every believer the pledge of the Holy Spirit for the hope of things to come, to guide them unto perfection.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
You would be correct that as of yet not many have been redeemed - but all believers have an inheritance and all are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the
earnest of our inheritance.
Main Entry: earnest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabōn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew ʽērābhōn pledge
Date: 13th century
1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
2 : a token of what is to come : pledge
It seems you are still having trouble differentiating the pledge believers are given and the Holy Spirit in its full power which we would not even, in the flesh, be able to stand before, it is the very fire of God.
Mickiel, do you not know that those whom cast off their first faith shall receive much damnation, and a hot fire - though God shall make them stand again - yet still after some judgement. I guess the question is, do you want to be the man through whom the spirit of the world may cause offence and cause some people to fall, and thus cause them a painful ordeal. Remember, without the indwelling Holy Spirit, there is not Gospel as of yet, and as reFORMer said, this is reducing Jesus Christ to just a philosopher whom has students.
Mickiel,
Apart from what seems to me to be vague theories and inferences surrounding your clear cut hard positions, like: The Reign of God is future, none (?) has the Holy Spirit, none is "born again" (until the whole person, body soul and spirit, is born into immortality, by which I assume you (?) mean born in body salvation, resurrection or physical (?) immortality) ---which discussions should probably be put on some other thread (along with books we'd probably like to share)---
The thread here had entered a very important and popularly neglected area concerning salvation being based on what God knows even if we are unaware. That properly understood should bring acknowledgment of the presence of the Holy Spirit working even if we're not tracking it with our thoughts, all the more so with "spirit" so little understood and God so different. It doesn't follow that our condition has to remain in the same ignorance, as also indicates, "...who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor 216) Here again is something that on one hand seems to have little evidence supporting it; that, "Now we have the mind of Christ." On the other hand, we might better understand what that is like as well as to apply ourselves to remedy our involvement with everything else then using that as evidence "we 'can't' have the mind of Christ." If some think it is impossible that they can receive or be filled with or immersed into the Holy Spirit then it seems most advice on "how to" would be wasted. It's tempting to monologue that but I think it's someone else's turn.
1 Corinthians 81-3: "And concerning the things sacrificed to idols, we have known that we all have knowledge: knowledge puffeth up, but love buildeth up; and if any one doth think to know anything, he hath not yet known anything according as it behoveth him to know; and if any one doth love God, this one hath been known by Him."
[quote author=arcticmonster2003 link=topic=1761.
Jesus Christ is the Son of the Eternal Father - he is King of King, and Lord of Lords - he gives every believer the pledge of the Holy Spirit for the hope of things to come, to guide them unto perfection.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
You would be correct that as of yet not many have been redeemed - but all believers have an inheritance and all are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance.
[/quote]
Well again, I understand your view, but I view differently. The " Holy Spirit of Promise", suggest to me that the Holy Spirit is Promised, and its the one who has made that promise, that sealed it. Yet in my view, signed and sealed promise, does not connotate just when it is delivered. The promise is a pledge, you are believing that it is already delivered. So I quess your eyes have been enlightened into that, mine have not. For this confession, you suggest that I may cause offence, have cast off my faith, and may receive much damnation, and a hot fire.
Good greif.
The inheritance has been taken. As for me, I will wait on mine. And for suggesting that we should be more patient, I am treated as if I have stated that we will receive no inheritence.
Will wonders never cease.
Peace.
[quote author=reFORMer link=topic=1761.
1 Corinthians 81-3: "And concerning the things sacrificed to idols, we have known that we all have knowledge: knowledge puffeth up, but love buildeth up; and if any one doth think to know anything, he hath not yet known anything according as it behoveth him to know; and if any one doth love God, this one hath been known by Him."
[/quote]
I don't know God, and have consistantly stated as such. So you go ahead and run your race, I'll be behind you, back here with a cautious pace. My understanding may be meaningless to you, but I already know that mt adaquacy comes from God.
Peace.
Mickiel,
I really wanted to ask you this a while back. Have you spent some (if not a significant) part of your life involved with Roman Catholic instruction?
Quote from: reFORMer on January 20, 2008, 08:42:31 PM
Mickiel,
I really wanted to ask you this a while back. Have you spent some (if not a significant) part of your life involved with Roman Catholic instruction?
No I have never even been to any kind of Catholic church. I have been alone for the last 10 years, and even when I did used to go to churchs, I never involved myself with their instructions, because I never agreed with them. I only want what influences me, to be between me and God.
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteFor this confession, you suggest that I may cause offence, have cast off my faith, and may receive much damnation, and a hot fire.
You have misunderstood a bit, I did not intend to suggest that you have cast off your faith, rather the question was, do you want to be the man through whom the spirit of this world harms other peoples faith. I did however intend that the spirit of this world is using you to be a tool to cause offence in regards to our pledge, which you have reduced to nothing more that a pledge of words for spiritual things to come in the future. As far as the pledge goes, we receive a pledge, a small part of the Holy Spirit that now dwells in believers (though many have been filled with the Holy Spirit at times) - the inheritance goes well beyong this, and our pledge is not one of words - but of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2 Timothy 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the
Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:44 ¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them,
Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the
Holy Ghost which is given unto us.Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Romans 15:13 ¶Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that
no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.2 Corinthians 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
1 Thessalonians 1:6 ¶And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the
Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Ghost,
Yes, the Holy Ghost is a witness to us, not a witness that is coming in the future, it indwells every believer. It is true that all have not yet been completely filled with the Holy Spirit, but nonetheless it does reside within every believer. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in us.
[quote author=arcticmonster2003 li
Yes, the Holy Ghost is a witness to us, not a witness that is coming in the future, it indwells every believer. It is true that all have not yet been completely filled with the Holy Spirit, but nonetheless it does reside within every believer. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in us.
[/quote]
Well all the verses you listed, I believe were being addressed to a church that had already been given the Holy Spirit. And I don't believe God has called out his latterday church as of yet, so I do not view those scriptures as presently applying, like you do. I do not doubt that the Spirits of this world uses me from time to time, I have not grown to a point that I am immune to them. Neither do I doubt that God also uses me from time to time, so I suffer with this delima. I would like to be able to not be used by the wordly spirits, but I am not given such a fortunate existence. I am sure I have helped, just as many as I have hurt, if I am to believe those who have told me as such, many of whom are here at Tentmaker now. Rather than give you a list of those I have helped, suffice it to say I agree that I am used by the spirits of this world. And I really do not like that, pray for it often, but God has not released me from it as of now.
Yet he has made known to me the the mystery of his will, according to his kind intention, he has blessed my mind with the knowledge of the truth. Me, a sinner, who is used by worldly spirits, and who does not have Gods Holy Spirit. Yet he has opened me to so many things.
So I stand accused by you, and I offer no more struggle, I have had enough of this conversation, and will focus on other things, like praying to be released from the worldly Spirits.
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteWell all the verses you listed, I believe were being addressed to a church that had already been given the Holy Spirit.
Exactly, Mickiel, and that church (by definition the Body of Christ) is still in the world, made up, as in those times by those whom believe that God, the Eternal Father sent his son, Jesus Christ to earth, this is not known by the spirit of the world, but is known by believers throught the Holy Spirit indwelling them. At which point or what landmark event do you think caused this church to cease to exist? I mention this because if there is no event which caused this church to cease to exist, then it still does exist. And if you were correct, that is, if this church actually doesn't exist right now, then how is it that there are still those whom believe in he whom was sent, these believers of course being the Body of Christ also know as the church.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
I do find it hard to understand that you think all the scripture I listed applied only to the Body of Christ that was on the earth at that time, especially this verse (1 Corinthians 12:3). It would appear to me that this verse would apply to everyone at every time both believers and unbelievers alike.
I understand that you have had enough of this conversation, I just wanted to make that point.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 21, 2008, 05:54:19 AM
quote Mickiel
QuoteWell all the verses you listed, I believe were being addressed to a church that had already been given the Holy Spirit.
Exactly, Mickiel, and that church (by definition the Body of Christ) is still in the world, made up, as in those times by those whom believe that God, the Eternal Father sent his son, Jesus Christ to earth, this is not known by the spirit of the world, but is known by believers throught the Holy Spirit indwelling them. At which point or what landmark event do you think caused this church to cease to exist? I mention this because if there is no event which caused this church to cease to exist, then it still does exist. And if you were correct, that is, if this church actually doesn't exist right now, then how is it that there are still those whom believe in he whom was sent, these believers of course being the Body of Christ also know as the church.
I understand that you have had enough of this conversation, I just wanted to make that point.
Well I understand the point, I really do. I disagree with those who teach that Gods church has continued through every human age since Christ. For what reason should God have continued it? I mean why? No, if God dealt with people since Christ, it was individual, I disagree that he has kept a church through every age since Christ. Listen, just because God deals with a humans mind, or more than one human, does not mean he has formed a church. Oh the humans themselves may try to form a church, and may accomplish that, but that does not mean God formed it. The truth is passed down by God, not by people. The church is passed down by God, not by people, and a church is not formulated by knowledge, it is formed by the Holy Spirit.
I speak these things with confidence, taking no reguard to how it is received. I know it is taught that the church of God has been in every age, I disagree with that. People teach that God has had churchs throughout the ages, and they were hidden, or small, or as if they were insignificant. I think that is rash assumption. The church of God CANNOT be hidden, it will hold too much Light. It would have impressed history, as it will in the future. Those who try to fit Gods church into times that it didnot exist, are trying to form Light, where there was none. If 500 years passed on earth without God dealing with anyone Spiritually, what does that change in his will?
Nothing.
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteFor what reason should God have continued it? I mean why?
This type of reasoning is not understood by me, it falls somewhere along the lines of "why did he should he have even started in the first place"
I can see, by how you are writing about "the Church" that you and I have very different ideas for what the Church is. I see "the Church" as the word to describe the whole Body of Christ, the Body of Christ is made up of believers, that means every single believer, even if they have never met nor talked, nor congregated.
quote Mickiel
QuoteI disagree that he has kept a church through every age since Christ.
As
there have been believers through every age, how can we say that there has not been believers through every age and present. (remember, the Church is just a word to describe the Body of Christ, also known as believers)
quote Mickiel
QuoteOh the humans themselves may try to form a church, and may accomplish that, but that does not mean God formed it.
True enough, if you use the definition of a church as a building in which a leader decides he wants some followers to submit to him. As this is not my definition of the Church, this does not apply to the Church of which I speak.
quote Mickiel
QuoteThe church of God CANNOT be hidden, it will hold too much Light.
Hidden? Who has not heard of the believers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
quote Mickiel
QuoteIf 500 years passed on earth without God dealing with anyone Spiritually, what does that change in his will?
Nothing, but the witnesses that this has not been the case are numerous both past and present that the Holy Spirit is indeed in us. There are many witnesses (billions) to this and also many witnesses of people whom have been "completely" filled with the Holy Spirit, witnesses, many many of them, both past and present. Why is it that you do not believe them?
quote Mickiel
QuoteThose who try to fit Gods church into times that it didnot exist, are trying to form Light, where there was none.
I shall say again, the Church is the word for the Body of Christ, which is made up of every believer. If there were no believers then you would have a valid argument, but as there are billions, it leaves me scratching my head.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Well There is a way to define the true church of God, and it is the way that I evaluate its pressence. This may not please those who usurp the Kingdom, because their individual visions of themselves are self magnified. Jesus in John 10:37-38;" If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me, but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may understand."
Who did Gods work after Jesus left? What kind of job did they do? Were they called to save this world, or to just pass down truth information to those who are like you? Or to bear witness of things beyond their control. You know your world is one that I avoid, God be praised, this is why I walk alone. I do not want to be influenced by these estimates of God. I prefer to be outside of these things.
Paul in Gal. 6:15;" For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision anything, but a new creation." This is the new exulation of the new life. It does not matter how much the desire of people who claim God to be in them is proclaimed, they do not have a new life, they still have the same life. They may hold a differing outlook, but they are not a new creation. They are still human. Still flesh, and nothing can change that, except the new birth.
Peace.
I was working on an answer to deal in greater detail with your futuristic explanation of Matthew 24; but, by your suggesting the discussion was over, I felt an urgency to hack out what I could, hurrying a brief quote from another concerning this. "Racial Dispensationalism" has used the media to popularize this view from around the beginning of the 20th Century; yet, most seem unaware of where they got it, accepting it as fact. Careful study of other passages in the Bible that use similar words and phrases found in Mt 24, as well as 1st Century history, make a different reading of the meaning of Jesus's prophecy. While it is the knowledge of God that is central, rather than the knowledge of Scripture, much advance may be had from the proper understanding of the written Logos. It is not by shutting people into a prejudicial view, but by open examination of whatever is necessary that truth thrives. "Truth survives the closest scrutiny." With knowledge, things eventually become apparent to one's own self without anybody looking over our shoulders. "As the mouth tastes food, so the ear tries words."
The following is from the website of The International Preterist Association (no author was named): "When will Christ return? This question is relevant, and can be answered by scripture. Jesus seems to have answered it very clearly in these passages (Matt. 10:23; Matt. 16:27,28; Matt. 24:34). Ever wonder why the First Century Christians expected Jesus to come in their lifetime, and where they got this expectation from? Take a look at the extreme sense of immanency in these passages: James 5:8,9; 1 Pet. 4:7; Matt. 10:23; Matt. 16:27,28; Matt. 24:34. These verses have always troubled Bible students, and have been used by liberal theologians to attack the inspiration of Scripture. They reason that these passages were not fulfilled when they were supposed to be (the first century generation), so Jesus and the NT writers failed in their predictions and were therefore not inspired. But these verses point to Christ's coming in some sense in connection with the Fall of Jerusalem at 70 AD. So, Jesus' predictions were fulfilled. He did not fail, nor do we need to engage in theological gymnastics to try to explain-away the seeming delay or postponement of His return. It happened right on schedule. Many knew the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was important in God's scheme of redemption, but never understood its full significance. It has to do with the consummation of the plan of redemption. The final events of the redemptive drama came to pass in the first century within the apostles' generation (before A.D. 70). Christ's kingdom is here now. Paradise has been restored in Christ (spiritually-speaking). Christ has conquered all His enemies and has given us the Kingdom."
quote Mickiel
QuoteJesus in John 10:37-38;" If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me, but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may understand."
Jesus was the author and perfector of our faith, not one growing in it, in him there was no darkness.
1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
quote Mickiel
QuoteWho did Gods work after Jesus left?
Well, to start with, the aposles, and all throughout the centuries whom have carried the Gospel to our ears. (how did you hear about Jesus Christ, from heaven or from man)
quote Mickiel
QuoteWere they called to save this world, or to just pass down truth information to those who are like you?
Whatever their calling was, what I received was repentance for my sins, faith in he whom the Eternal Father sent, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
quote Mickiel
QuoteYou know your world is one that I avoid, God be praised, this is why I walk alone. I do not want to be influenced by these estimates of God. I prefer to be outside of these things.
It is not you walking alone that got us in this conversation in the first place or what I considered to be "a problem", but rather your argument that was written for all to read, members and non-members alike, that believers do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling. Just sayin...
quote Mickiel
QuotePaul in Gal. 6:15;" For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision anything, but a new creation." This is the new exulation of the new life.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
There was still alot of people back then whom had trouble accepting that uncircimcised Gentiles had any part with God, also that the covenant for eternal life had nothing to do with works of the law. This was the point of the verses.
quote Mickiel
QuoteIt does not matter how much the desire of people who claim God to be in them is proclaimed, they do not have a new life, they still have the same life.
Simply untrue, my life has changed dramatically since I received the Holy Spirit. My desire for God consumes my entire life. If you have not received a witness as of yet concerning this, then know that I have just witnessed to you right now.
quote Mickiel
QuoteThey may hold a differing outlook, but they are not a new creation.
Again, untrue. There is a new life and God is the whole focus, everything else is distraction.
quote Mickiel
QuoteThey are still human. Still flesh, and nothing can change that, except the new birth.
Those whom are born again, and are taught by the Holy Spirit begin to not care about the things of this world or the things of this flesh, each on different levels in accordance to the measure of faith that is bestowed upon them.
Are you speaking about the flesh being born again? Or are you saying our fleshly bodies are not, nor the fleshly bodies of any whom ever were in the flesh (apostles included) temple of the Holy Ghost? This would be scripturally inaccurate, and if your using a reference beside scripture, may I know what it is? Are you saying that no man while in the flesh has received the Holy Ghost? Do you not consider that receiving the Holy Ghost
while in the flesh was what was referred to as being born again?
Now this just doesn't make any sense, as you believe the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they were in the flesh, but are now saying we cannot receive the Holy Spirit while in the flesh??
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his
Here is some of the accurate description of the Holy Spirit indwelling believers:
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your
mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
I hope now that you understand that being born again was speaking of receiving the Holy Spirit while in a body of flesh, while in a mortal body. Do you see in Romans 8:10-14 that those being spoken to were in the flesh? There a many places that show that being Baptized in the Holy Spirit (AKA being born again) had nothing to do with being buried in the graveyard or cremated.
The realm of Paradise is the higher, closer side, that more directly seen through God's eyes, of this same creation of our outer lowered flesh man, though it is much more than that too. The vast and supernal expression, "...out of Him and through Him and into Him is the All..." (Romans 1136) is translated by The New English Bible as, "He is the Source and the Guide and the Goal of everything..." Whatever is has it's Source side. The immanent presentation of the cosmos is to not decide our disposition in reality. "Judge not by appearances; but, judge righteous judgment." (Isaiah) Through the realignment or manipulation of the Holy Spirit I have been granted to glimpse the glory that is right now just around the corner, if we could but enter into the Presence of Our Father.
To assume that this could not be the transitional generation one would need knowledge of where in God certain select one's are at out of all of God's more than 5 billions alive, and possibly as well, the advances of those that are on the other side of the veil. When He has a sufficient number known to Him that have entered into enough victory, the crossing over will commence, even if it is only one to start. Even if it doesn't prove to be The Time in the world, for you or any one of us, it can be "The Time" in God. The door no man can shut is open for whosoever will.
At the time Jesus raised from the dead, the last chapter of Matthew tells us many of the holy ones raised with him and that they showed themselves to many in the holy city. I lean to the assumption that those are the 144,000. They've already entered in bearing the ark like the priests who were 2,000 cubits ahead of the congregation at the time of the crossing over into inheriting Canaan. They stood in the river while the rest caught up and passed on.
As Jesus revealed Himself, not to the world or even all Israel before He was taken up into glory, so in like manner is His appearing in our entrance into the next age. It is to those earnestly seeking and desiring Him to whom "He will appear a second time without sin unto salvation." It will not be an event recognized at first by the world, even what is popularly referred to as the church. It will in a generation dawn upon the entire world; but, it is to and through His own that already dearly love Him that He will become increasingly manifest. "When He appears, we shall appear with Him in glory."
It is the salvation of the body of the holy people that is what all of creation is in birth pangs for. When our physical being is placed into the liberation of full sonship, all of creation will begin to reap the benefit. The manifestation (not the disappearance) of the sons of God will affect the rest of the physical cosmos. Few are now spiritual enough to move in other realms so as to speak authoritatively on what is transpiring in the heavenlies. Few wait on the Lord in prayers and fasting in agreement with one another.
I think someone can be saved yet not have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Like Mickiel says, if there's the Spirit of God around, people will know it. Because it comes in power, not in word only.
If we get our eyes onto our Father and off of each other, we should see more clearly.
Then, when God decides to, He will move by His Spirit. (Better sooner than later, we hope!)
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 21, 2008, 12:46:11 PM
I think someone can be saved yet not have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Like Mickiel says, if there's the Spirit of God around, people will know it. Because it comes in power, not in word only.
If we get our eyes onto our Father and off of each other, we should see more clearly.
Then, when God decides to, He will move by His Spirit. (Better sooner than later, we hope!)
Bri
Well yes, I believe this also, well I believe we all will be saved anyway, because its what God wants to do, why should he desire anything less? But consciousness is a very volitile creation of God, he is doing something in humans, that he didnot do in Angels. He has given us conscious awareness, while we are in a body of flesh. Thats a unique life form, but then he went further and pricked the human counsciousness in a Spiritual area, which I know he knew would induce coveting. Once you introduce the spector of having eternal life, then the human mind cannot correctly handle that. Being born again has been introduced, Gods Kingdom has been introduced, having Gods Spirit has been introduced. The natural direction of the human mind will be to grab all of those things, and can fabricate them, covet them, irreguardless of what God does. I don't think we understand how far we will go to get the things we want so bad.
Men want and desire to see God put people in hell. Why? Well it reinforces their own self worth. They feel they have made it, they are the gold, and they feel the garbage must be removed. Those who covet Gods Spirit, Gods Kingdom, Gods annointing, well they want it. Want and desire it so bad, they willnot, cannot, view themselves as waiting on God and respecting his time table. So they take it by the force of their own belief.
You know, and I think God has already thought this out. He knew that certain humans, once he pricked them, would respond in this manner. So hes already prepared to deal with this. He's getting something out of this, and I think it goes like this: Dangle eternal life in front of greedy unknowing humans. Prick some of their minds with the truth. Observe how they covet that eternal life. Dangle the calling to them. Prep their atmosphere with the oncomming, looming blessings that is God. Then make the first last, and the last first. Put those who covet so much that they jumped out of line, in the back, and place those who the first thought was not being considered, into the relm that they coveted.
And this is what I think God will do, because it fits the pattern of God, who has always done what seems impossible to do. The temptation of life is one thing, but the temptation of eternal life, oh how that will seduce. I think one of the most dangerous humans ever, are those who believe God has annointed them, and he has not. That person will live in a self empowering world, and will knock anybody down who gets in their way.
Peace.
quote whyiloveitaly
QuoteI think someone can be saved yet not have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Like Mickiel says, if there's the Spirit of God around, people will know it. Because it comes in power, not in word only.
If we get our eyes onto our Father and off of each other, we should see more clearly.
Then, when God decides to, He will move by His Spirit. (Better sooner than later, we hope!)
I can see this discussion is beginning to go in circles now, perhaps it is too much information to be received all at one sitting. I did address earlier in the thread the difference between the power of which you are speaking that it is seen in those whom walk more perfectly in accordance with God's wills, and the believers whom have not yet been established, whom are also acknowledged to have the Holy Spirit. Below is what I wrote on it earlier in this thread.
quote Myself, arcticmonster2003
QuoteMickiel, I understand you do not believe any person has yet obtained the Holy Spirit, because you have not witnessed great works from those same or that you are just not seeing what you expect to see from Spirit filled individuals. Did you ever think about this one - all the epistles were written to people whom were acknowledged to have received the Holy Spirit, as a pledge, and yet they struggled, sinned, were always fighting, sueing each other and such, they did not have the same power and authority that was seen in deed in the apostles, whom were walking more closely to the will of God, and yet it is the apostles whom told us those babes did indeed have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge - for the hope of what is yet to come. Just because one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit does not mean they are completely walking in Spirit, doing only the will of God, and it does not mean that God yet intends great works (of his) to yet be accomplished through those whom are not yet tried, refined and perfected - It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that believers are converted, it is that which speaks truth to the unbelievers, imparting spiritual truth, so they know that it is the truth - The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge, and this initial pledge is what you seem to be confusing with the perfected man. IMO.
or.. perhaps you did read the earlier post on this whyiloveitaly and I just didn't explain it adequately or convincingly. But I assure you it is a teaching in accordance with scripture.
If one says they have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and receive it with faith, then another may say as Pauls says.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them,
Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Now, there is John's baptism of repentance and Jesus Christ's baptism of the Holy Spirit which comes when one believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, unto which have we been baptized?
For me I have both received John's baptism of repentance, and received Jesus Christ's baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why would one want to tell me that I have not been baptized in Jesus Christ?
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
quote Mickiel
QuoteYou know, and I think God has already thought this out. He knew that certain humans, once he pricked them, would respond in this manner. So hes already prepared to deal with this. He's getting something out of this, and I think it goes like this: Dangle eternal life in front of greedy unknowing humans. Prick some of their minds with the truth. Observe how they covet that eternal life. Dangle the calling to them. Prep their atmosphere with the oncomming, looming blessings that is God. Then make the first last, and the last first. Put those who covet so much that they jumped out of line, in the back, and place those who the first thought was not being considered, into the relm that they coveted.
Your reasoning is truly beyond me Mickiel, this above quote falls somewhere along the lines of "Don't seek God diligently lest you be guilty of coveting" - - come come, let us judge with righteous judgement here.
quote Mickiel
QuoteMen want and desire to see God put people in hell. Why? Well it reinforces their own self worth. They feel they have made it, they are the gold, and they feel the garbage must be removed.
I believe all shall be saved eventually Mickiel, it doesn't give me a jolly warm fuzzy feeling that any man should suffer in any way whatsoever, in this life or the next.
quote Mickiel
QuoteAnd this is what I think God will do, because it fits the pattern of God, who has always done what seems impossible to do. The temptation of life is one thing, but the temptation of eternal life, oh how that will seduce.
I have to be honest, this view of things in my personal opinion is a bit twisted. Eternal Life is not a temptation, but the promise, and for those whom believe, even this very moment is a moment of their Eternal Life (of course this must be quickened to our understanding)
quote Mickiel
QuoteI think one of the most dangerous humans ever, are those who believe God has annointed them, and he has not.
Is it not easy enough for us to make a distinction between the wolves who want to kill, steal, and destroy and the sheep by their fruits? The real wolves, whom are indeed the most dangerous humans ever, are not annointed, and know darn well they are not annointed, yet they lie. Yet you have not made this simple distinction between the sheep and the wolves in the above quote and just all whom may say they are annointed right now are the most dangerous humans ever, because you know (though we do not know how), that they are not annointed. :dontknow:
Is it not easy enough to spot the true wolves? And if we lack discernment, then we can pray for it, so that we may rightly see the fruits of the wolves and the fruit of the sheep and not just lump them into one big pile.
[quote author=arcticmonster2003
Is it not easy enough to spot the true wolves? And if we lack discernment, then we can pray for it, so that we may rightly see the fruits of the wolves and the fruit of the sheep and not just lump them into one big pile.
[/quote]
Well I agree with this. But I think God wants them lumped into the same pile, I doubt that he wants to seperate the wheat from the tare as of now. I think you and others are really making a stand for God, so I do not argue as if I think you are not. I think centuries of human history has fallen into this catagory, Nahum 3:18;" Your Shephards are sleeping, O king of Assyria; your nobles are lying down. Your people are scattered on the mountians. and there is no one to regather them. Vs.19; " there is no relief for your breakdown, your wound is incurable. All who hear about you will clap their hands over you, for on whom has not your evil passed continually?
After the church of God died down when it did, that was the will of God, I don't think for one minute that he wanted the truth to be popular, or continue throughout the ages. That does not make sense to me, but I understand that there are those who think God continuosly has dispensated the truth. Is the kingdom of God divided against itself if God is a no show? No, any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and the church of God cannot be considered to have been prominent throughout history. A revival of the church will happen, but its comming willnot be brought forth by people who think themselves called of God, it will be ushered in by the Holy Spirit, which is coveted by the believers, more than the sinners who do not believe.
Jesus in Luke 13:20;" To what shall I compare the Kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened." Jesus hid the Kingdom, and preached of its revealing and comming. All scriptures that I see, reveal the Kingdom comming at a certain time, to EVERYONE! So those who claim it has come to them now,usurp it to be in them, because of coveting. As if I have to accept that just because they have knowledge.
Peace.
quote Mickiel
QuoteBut I think God wants them lumped into the same pile,
And may I ask what God having let the sheep be in the midst of wolves has to do with a rebuttal to my remark about our need to discern and make a distinction between the sheep and the wolves? You agree that a distinction needs to be made but then add other words that seem to be some attempt to make my point moot. It seems this is just skirting the issue and is being used to make some point that is not related to the discussion of making a distinction and using discernment - this is a redirection of the conversation, words that appear to have a point, but do not. It was Jesus Christ and the apostles whom warned us to make a distinction between the sheep and the wolves, lest we be deceived. I'm glad you agree.
Luke 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
quote Mickiel
QuoteAfter the church of God died down when it did
Round and round we go....where there are believers, they make up what is called the church of God, there are more now than ever (about 2 billion), how is it you say it died down, when it seems it is larger than ever. Just because there are few whom are walking closely according to the will of God, or if the will of God is that few noticable works be done, meaning even those filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit may not called to do many noticable works does not mean anything died down, and if this is the will of God, then they are walking in perfect accord with the Spirit, how this correlates to no Holy Spirit present is again beyond me.
quote Mickiel
QuoteJesus in Luke 13:20;" To what shall I compare the Kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened." Jesus hid the Kingdom, and preached of its revealing and comming.
Just because its hidden to most does not mean it is not in effect, notice you are preaching that the Kingdom is like leaven hid in three pecks of meal, and then taken out, to be put back in at the appropriate time, and thats not what Luke 13:20-21 said. In fact these verses you picked are ones that completely disproves your point, from a scriptural stand, that their is not a Body of Christ present on the earth today or in the last 2000 years (give or take a couple hundred years, as I'm not sure which year you think the church died and ceased to exist until another time). There are currently about 2 billion believers, so I would say that the meal is more leavened than it was 2000 years ago.
Sorry for just pouncing in with an off-hand comment, but I just saw this thread, and the title is soooooo true. The whole Universal Salvation concept was something subtly hidden from me for years, as I stood a not quite practicing Catholic. As my mental questioning of much RC doctrine grew, I grew apart from the church, and God as well. Slowly, and I am not really sure when or how, my questioning brought me to believe in Universal Salvation, though I had never really heard of it before. As strength in this idea grew, I eventually sought out others thinking, and realized I was not alone in this thought process.
Plenty of others have criticized this idea, having been well indoctrinated in their respective denominations. Many told me that I was just using Universal Salvation to allow myself "licentious freedoms" and excuse them since all would be saved. What they didn't get was the fact that I was much more "licentious" (sinful) before I found Universal Salvation. The peace I found in Christ through Universal Salvation has greatly suppressed (not eliminated, I am still a man) my old ways. Universal Salvation has not led me to licentious behavior, but actually has strengthened my resolve to avoid it. I see this same result in others as well. Go figure.
Nice post, Reverend G!
For the rest, my head's starting to spin. Can you guys simplify (and shorten) a bit?
Perhaps we come to Universal Salvation through love. "There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."
God moves when He wants to. Are we following Him (the cloud)? He gives the Spirit to whom He wants, in the measure He wants. All else is flesh. (And there's a lot of flesh, and we can all be guilty of it!)
More than what we believe to be true or not (conscious awareness?), who are we looking to?
My grandpa once said to someone, "Jesus loves you!"
They replied, "yes, but do you love me?"
Bri
The Conscious awareness of Universal Salvation is gripping, it stuns you, at least it did me. It has gripped my mind, my life, my whole being, and has a hard grip, it won't let go. This is why I believe that I may well be called to God in the future, because something is there, and its setting up some kind of senerio for my life.
You know, the funny thing is that when I get involved in certain conversations with people, and they tell me I am being used by worldly Spirits, I often wonder if thats my calling. To be some kind of bad clay in Gods hands. I tell him I would rather be dead. I recall one group I used to communicate with, and they told me they think I am being used by God to " Try the Church." Do you know what thats like, to look into the mirror, and not know your calling. Your purpose. You drag on into the next day and hope for change.
I look into Gods word, and just see things differently. Sometimes the Peace of agreement comes, but often I wonder if God will continue with my conscious understanding, and will he produce righteous living in my life. Day drags into another day, and I recall reading Jesus in Luke 13:32-33;" Go and tell that Fox, ( Kind of funny, Jesus calling King Herod a Fox), Behold I cast out demons and perform cures today and tommorrow, and the third day I reach my goal. Nevertheless I must journey on today and tommorow and the next day. for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem." One of the only places Jesus refers to himself as a Prophet.
The days drag on and we do what we do. But Jesus had goals and he always went for them. And he had power to reach those goals. Oh how I wish I were like him.
Peace.
There is a little known history of the Church across the ages, largely because of who kept the history.
Between Constantine and Pope Leo, arbitrarily 350 to 500 AD, the bureaucratic institution of Christendom usurped the organic bride of Christ, claiming itself The Church. This had been led up to by what historians call "The Church of the Bishops," to distinguish it from what Jesus and the apostles produced. Being led of the Holy Spirit with every member participating in our gatherings became dominated by citywide leaders who claimed the authority to teach new believers, or even teach authoritatively, as well as to counsel, to baptize, to monitor our partaking of the bread and wine, to marry, and the like. This was simply other mediators usurping the function of the saints. Trying to produce a single head of this organization split it into east and west branches, each having their own human authority owing allegiance to either Patriarch or Pope in the mid 200's.
The reason for mentioning this brief view of the emergence of Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Institutions preceded by the Church of the Bishops is that they were the ones who made and kept the records. They also suppressed the movement of the Holy Spirit in the organic Church, replacing it with their version of events. I remember the image of a baby pierced through by a sword held up by a soldier on a gold coin struck by the Vatican in honor of the Pope's armies destroying, who was it, the Montanists were to early and the Lollards too late, maybe the Albinginians or Waldensians? Their crime? They were prophesying. The sick were miraculously healed. They were led by lights on their path. Early on, for reasons we can only imagine, Institutional Christianity began their ongoing systematic destruction of the handwritten copies of Scripture in the languages of the people. (They still get their triumph of sorts by the lineage of the text underlying our modern translations not being that revered through the centuries in the vernacular versions. We still have the King James though. It could be improved; but, those who revise it are too often motivated by money, and, at any rate, impose their additional doctrinal bias's under Westcott's spell. The oldest fragment of the N. T yet discovered, the Magdalen Papyrus, 60 AD, proves the KJV is correct and NASB, NIV, CEV, NRSV are wrong.) I'll admit that the story could be told with another bias, showing Christendom in a more favorable light. However, that's another story.
The point I was tying to make is that the working of the Holy Spirit in His people across the centuries is a reality. It is the histories that aren't so reliable. The usual presentation of those murdered by the Nazis is 6 Million Jews, when there was in reality at least 7 million Christians also killed. I believe such facts are suppressed because of present efforts against Christians. I know in my lifetime what the western press represented as millions dead by famine in Bangladesh in the 70's was actually murder of the Christians by Moslems. This should help remove our assumption that we've somehow outgrown the penchant for rewriting history.
This whole writing is a partial response to the idea that the Church disappeared. I don't think that idea is very historically informed. It also is out of touch with what God is doing today in many lives worldwide. What few accounts trickle down are often dismissed as fantasy, though because of His presence in our lives we know better. Right now, large institutions presenting themselves as the Church virtually deny any manifestation of the Holy Spirit in spite of millions of people coming to faith in Jesus for whom miracles are their daily bread. The marvelous working of God in the 20th Century in the USA has almost completely been spurned by the Institutional Church here. Tongues near the turn of the Century, healings and healing ministries of the 40's and 50's: this was all largely maligned and rejected until the experiences of so many caused a temporary stir in mainline churches during the 70's Charismatic movement. Out of that came many independent Charismatic fellowships and mega-churches, usually not much differing from what they came out of except for allowing tongues and healing, sometimes prophecy, but still clergy dominated. At that time many experienced what should be the normal meeting as His body, a "round table" where all participate, often in the home. There's a resurgence of this now for many reasons. Certainly the restoration of apostles and prophets has had some "outside the camp" start in the close of the 20th Century, though still heavily influenced by a pulpit centric model. It hasn't to my knowledge changed institutional Christianity however. The Reformation came and went and the Roman Catholic Church is still going strong. So don't expect to change the institutions. The majority of Christians worldwide meet in their homes. They don't have "pastor/priest" leaders. That is becoming the norm for the majority in the USA too. It's not the sort of thing that makes the news. Hopefully this restructuring won't only be slandered as cultic and dangerous. People resist change.
I hope this helps indicate what's been going on is Babylon and the Bride at the same time. Many confuse this as one entity, but it's not all just the Church.
---James Rohde
Yes, reFORMer, it certainly does help, as I don't know alot of history on these matters, and most research would be the babylon view of things, it is good to get some information from a source other than babylon.
reFORMer:
the whole thing kinda' begs the question:
"Was the apostate church thwarting God's plan for the ages, or was it a part of that plan?"
doesn't it?
Brian
quote Mickiel
QuoteYou know, the funny thing is that when I get involved in certain conversations with people, and they tell me I am being used by worldly Spirits, I often wonder if thats my calling. To be some kind of bad clay in Gods hands. I tell him I would rather be dead. I recall one group I used to communicate with, and they told me they think I am being used by God to " Try the Church." Do you know what thats like, to look into the mirror, and not know your calling. Your purpose. You drag on into the next day and hope for change.
Well, you would of course be right to tell someone whom says it is your purpose on earth to "Try the Church", or may I be more specific "Try godly men", as some distinctions were made earlier by reFORMer between the bride and babylon - anyway you would be right to tell those whom say it is your purpose to be our trial to get lost, this is not to say that you might not have found yourself trying godly men at times, but for anyone to imply this is your purpose in life is just not right.
We know that trying those whom have faith in God falls into the hands of the ungodly, and no person should try and tell someone whom is seeking God that this is their lot for life.
Not sure if you have read much of the Apocrypha, but it lays out what the ungodly do pretty plainly for us, especially pertaining to the persecution of godly people:
Please note that all the following verses are must be read in context to the opening verse Wisdom 2:1 - that is that the following are the thoughts of ungodly men, and thus a good reference for us of things not to do and a good reference to test our thoughts against, making sure are thoughts are not similiar. And of course, we must always consider discernment and make a distinction between those whom are wolves and sheep, because the wolves are not godly and should not be counted as such, despite their lies, actually, the wolves regard the sheep in much the same way written below.
Wis 2:1
For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave.
Wis 2:2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart:
Wis 2:3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air,
Wis 2:4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof.
Wis 2:5 For our time is a very shadow that passeth away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man cometh again.
Wis 2:6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth.
Wis 2:7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us:
Wis 2:8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered:
Wis 2:9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this.
Wis 2:10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged.
Wis 2:11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth.
Wis 2:12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education.
Wis 2:13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord.
Wis 2:14 He was made to reprove our thoughts.
Wis 2:15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion.
Wis 2:16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father.
Wis 2:17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him.
Wis 2:18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.
Wis 2:19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience.
Wis 2:20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected.
Mickiel:
Personally, I like the input you give on this forum. You're direct and you speak what's in your heart, and I think that's a blessing from the Lord. Many people who claim to be Christians don't know what's in their heart. (I hope I am not that way myself..!)
You are not afraid to look for the truth wherever it may be found. Again, many Christians don't know how to look for truth, even if it hit them on the head. (Again, I hope I am not that way myself, and I have to keep a constant lookout!!!!)
It would seem that man's nature likes to categorize people. But God looks on the heart, because He knows that it's more complicated than that..
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 25, 2008, 10:21:46 AM
Mickiel:
Personally, I like the input you give on this forum. You're direct and you speak what's in your heart, and I think that's a blessing from the Lord. Many people who claim to be Christians don't know what's in their heart. (I hope I am not that way myself..!)
You are not afraid to look for the truth wherever it may be found. Again, many Christians don't know how to look for truth, even if it hit them on the head. (Again, I hope I am not that way myself, and I have to keep a constant lookout!!!!)
It would seem that man's nature likes to categorize people. But God looks on the heart, because He knows that it's more complicated than that..
Bri
Well thank you for saying this. You know, I don't contend with others as long as I used to in conversation, I seem to tire of it quicker than I used to, but I will do it for a time. I think if I sense the person is interested, I will continue longer. But yes, some subjects are hot topics, that people hold deep feelings over.
My sense of the history of the church, comes from the bible. Not articles, not opinion, not assumption, as do my views on any biblical or Spiritual topic. The Church of God began in the Middle East and I think Jesus will return to Earth in that same Area. I think that he will raise up his prominent Leaders of the future from that area, and I think the end time events will focus on that area. It is difficult to tell an American this, because they view themselves as Gods focal point, I disagree with that. I believe when God calls out his church, it will be from people all over the globe, yes, but it will still center in that area, which is important to God, maybe not to others, but to God.
So I think the true history of the Church, is still in that area, still planted there, still focused there, it didnot " Move to America", only to shift back over there later, that makes no sense to me. No, Americans covet the truth, so certain leaders have taught that the church moved here, when anglo saxons moved here, as if those people were the focus of the truth. The Arab world is the heart of Gods dealings on earth, but some think that has changed. I don't think it has changed or will change, because I am not caught up in trying to manipulate God. I think God hid his church, as he did his truth, covered it up, and let it stay like that for years.
When God opens up people in that area of the world, those people will be from a linage of impressive history, and they will really be persecuted when they teach the truth. But I think they will be quite impressive.
If anything, I believe as the truth traveled to America, it got more perverted and distorted. I think America has worked over the truth more deadly than any nation, and thus is a major part of Gods plan of distortion and keeping the truth from comming out, or the church, one could say. Of course Americans view this conversely, they think themselves as the heart of Gods truth and church. And I think that pride will be broken.
Let me say this about God also, he gives the person a " Sense of that brokeness comming" too. I think American views of the truth, the Church, and all things concerning this, is destined to be broken. So those who infiltrate Gods calling, will never enjoy a whole heart, somethingelse will burn within them also, and the first will be last, the ones who put themselves first in the line, will just have to be last. Those Americans God will call out, will know this, and will hold a humility that does not look to create " American Influence" to the end times. But I do believe those Americans called, will be quite something themselves, because when God pulls someone out of distortion, they are unique individuals and will hold a very strong inner quality, which comming from slavery can produce.
I am thinking of beginning to look more into personal study of Gods endtime " Two Witnesses", because I don't know anything about them. They seem to be two very powerful humans used by God, and they are killed in the Middle East, and are ressurected. And then the end comes. But this is a mystery to me, I don't even know if its true, but I am trying to understand it. It intrest me.
Anyhow, thank you for your comment.
Peace.
Mickiel:
Maybe they should start putting up billboards on the highways that read: "Jesus wasn't American." Living here in Italy, I see how much Italians are aware of what's going on in other countries. They have an interest in "the other."
Americans, by far, don't know or care about the rest of the world. Just look at any major newspaper--very few pages are dedicated to international news. I think there is a demographic element to it. America is far from most of the rest of the world. It's like keeping your head in the sand.
I can share with you some comments my grandpa mentioned several times in his last few years on this globe, regarding the two witnesses:
he said that they are the Word and the Spirit, which will be manifested within a company of people. (This is very similar with what you mentioned in your last post, I believe.) This company of people will be martyred for their witness (martyring is the highest calling we can hope for) and their bodies will not be buried because the world will want to see if they arise or not (which, or course, they will).
I'm not sure, but it may be that this company of people will come out of the Jewish nation.
Love to all,
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly
I'm not sure, but it may be that this company of people will come out of the Jewish nation.
Love to all,
Brian
/quote]
Well I think thats possible, but I believe they will be middle eastern. Interesting what your Father believed. And yes that billboard wouldnot last a week in America, Jesus was not American and he was not White, two things many are not comfortable with. And he was not a Universalist by religion, he was by his gift of Salvation and Eternity. Just because a person is a Universalist, does not mean that know the Truth. But many White American men have sought to trace the truth, but they try to keep it American, which is useless effort in my view.
I consider the effort to claim the Kingdom of God is now within, along these same lines. Trust me, if the Kingdom of God was anything like the people who now claim it, it would be contaminated already.
Few people realize how dead they are, until they come out of the graveyard of their beliefs.
I think the Truth has not been opened on the earth in its fullness, nor any other gift of God. If the Kingdom of God was on Earth, or within people, that fullness would also be.
Peace.
Mickiel:
I think what you're expecting (a fullness of the Spirit) is Tabernacles. That is the company of witnesses that the world will put to death.
I can believe in the Kingdom of God within because of my own experiences. And there is a lot of imperfection, or mixture, of Spirit and flesh. That mixture is what you see, and I see it, too. The wind blows a bit, but then stops again. We are in Pentecost right now (mixture).
I, too, want to see Tabernacles (unleavened, like the Passover). I want to see the greater works that Jesus said that we would do.
The more I read on this forum, the more I am convinced that suffering is the life of the believer. I don't know what kinds of suffering there are, but I suppose that any suffering that puts the flesh in place is adequate.
It's a far cry from the big name ministries with their "name it and claim it" or "wealth and prosperity" doctrines. I have a hunch that the most spiritual of us are those who are suffering the most. -Maybe from the suffering comes gifts of the Spirit, like healing?
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 26, 2008, 10:51:06 PM
Mickiel:
I think what you're expecting (a fullness of the Spirit) is Tabernacles. Brian
Well I think I do see the Holy Spirit different than most. I do believe a person can grow in grace, grow in Knowledge, grow in wisdom, grow in their gifts, but I do not view the Holy Spirit as something that " Grows within you", as if God will give a small portion of it, then it grows. No, I see it as something he plants within you, already full. What people are calling a " Down Payment" of the Spirit, I believe is the pressence of the Spirit, influencing their awareness. But they take that to mean they have it in them already.
In Col.1:19;"For it was the Fathers good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him." This was the human condition of Jesus, and its why he didNOT sin. Its why Job didnot sin, its why if a human had it now, they either wouldnot sin, or very rarely sin. But I think that would be up to God, if God wanted to, he could condition human flesh, with Gods Spirit, not to sin, but he only rarely did this. Just as I think he rarely allows human flesh, with his Spirit, to live and sin.
In properly understanding Jesus power, its simular to trying to understand the Holy Spirit. Christ is exalted as the head of the church, he holds the potential to fill each called member of it with literally " Everything", in its fullness, all at once, Eph.1:23. But instead of the Spirit itself, I believe he is dispensating gifts that come from HIS Spirit, NOT ours. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, are just that, gifts FROM the Holy Spirit itself, not from the Spirit being in you.
I believe the condition of the people now, is a result of NOT having these gifts, not having them and just making mistakes while living a Spirit filled life. I would say examine Christ, but thats a bit much, but if you study the life of Job, every person who God gives his Spirit to in the last days, hold the potential to be just as sinless as Job. Just as Spiritually great as the man was, and they WILL be like this, in my view. Which is WHY they will be like a city that cannot be hidden, they will stand out, not " Blend in with the neighborhood", or totally become unoticed. And being able to reach this standard, is the actual " Hope" that is developed by the calling of God, you hope for the calling. You hope to one day be like this.
The oppisite of that, is to live as if you already have it all. And I think that stance inverts the knowledge of the bible. Instead of your understanding growing outward, it grows inward. An inward look at the bible, introverts the bible in many ways, as would living your life introverted would limit many things you could have enjoyed if you were outgoing.
Peace.
Let me give a short overview of how I believe God will give his Spirit, when he does. In the 2nd chapter of Acts, it explains many things. In observation I see this: God gave his Spirit in a " New Manner", never done before. He gave it to a whole group of people at the same time. Not one at a time, but them all. I don't think God will change from this, I think if anything, he will do greater than this, such is Gods pattern.
The people Immediately had power, unheard up power, they each could understand different languages. This is not human ability, nor self manufactored evidence of the Spirit. I could no more understand another language instantly, than I could ressurect myself from death.
But God states something in vs.17;" I will pour forth my Spirit upon ALL mankind, in the last days." As there were residents from Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Libya, Egypt, Cyrene , Rome, both Jews and Arabs, all present during this mass giving of the Holy Spirit, I believe Gods giving of his Spirit during these times will be at least the same as this, or greater, NOT individualistic, as some have believed.
When God does this in the last days, he will do it to BOTH male and female, vs. 18. Prophets will be made immediately, vs.17. Evidence of great power will be made KNOWN TO ALL, vs.19-21. EVERYONE who believes what these people preach and teach, will be saved, vs.21.
This is the senerio that results from God giving his Spirit to a group of people.
There is NO senerio that I see that even comes close to this occuring now.
Peace.
I am often blessed by what is shared by people with whom I'm not in complete agreement. Actually, if that wasn't the case, who could ever be blessed by another, seeing how different everybody is from everybody else? I can get too mentally picky and betray my welcoming heart. Don't forget, Mickiel, I complimented your beginning posts. I found them to be very creatively stimulating. I saw someone thinking about the things of God for a change, not just parroting the party line. I hope you get something from what I labor to write. I experience more and more the glory of God at hand. To say that is only a kind of shorthand of what is happening. One related thing is I wish I had the time and this was the place to tell you of the angel feather that was physically in my room.
-------------------------
Quote from: Mickiel on January 27, 2008, 03:11:14 AM
The people Immediately had power, unheard up power, they each could understand different languages. This is not human ability, nor self manufactored evidence of the Spirit. I could no more understand another language instantly, than I could ressurect myself from death.
While, "With God, all thing are possible," the Biblical record of The Day of Pentecost does not indicate the miracle was in the hearers but the tellers. "They spoke with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Ac 2
4) As you indicated, listing a number of the nations of those present, those used various languages and understood the 120, who were only Galileans (Ac 2
7) to be speaking in their native tongues. And it says, "...they were all amazed and marvelled..." (Ac 2
7) Part of your quote follows:
Quote from: Mickiel on January 27, 2008, 03:11:14 AM
But God states something in vs.17;" I will pour forth my Spirit upon ALL mankind, in the last days." As there were residents from Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Libya, Egypt, Cyrene , Rome, both Jews and Arabs, all present
----------------------
What you expect the "true" outpouring of the Holy Spirit to do you say will be:
Quote from: Mickiel on January 27, 2008, 03:11:14 AM
Prophets will be made immediately, vs.17.
That's a stretch! Many would like instantaneous "man of God" status rather than a lifetime of development by daily denial of self and taking up the cross to follow Jesus. Already anointed to be king, when Saul came among the School of the prophets he demonstrated an immediate prophetic gift; but, he didn't stay that way. Normally it is a development as we mature in the Image and Likeness of God. When the Holy Spirit resides within, all that Jesus is and does is in us, but as an available potential. It is a matter of maturing that makes it possible for the character and behaviour of Jesus to become our own, individually and corporately. Part of what's so horrible about the liturgical or Reformation meeting structure is it is neither expected that, "Every disciple when he's finished will be like his master," (Lk 6
40) nor is there opportunity to exercise toward fulfilling that goal when we are together. The next time you're in one of Institutional Christianity's Sunday morning "Services," just try obeying the command to exhort or, "...entreat YOURSELVES..." (Heb 3
13) at about 11:30 AM and you'll find out soon enough what else the ushers are there for! The church is not on the program!
----------------------
Quote from: Mickiel on January 27, 2008, 03:11:14 AM
EVERYONE who believes what these people preach and teach, will be saved, vs.21.
This can be disasterous. Those who believe and obey the Truth will be saved. To expect elite representatives, specially constituted of God to give us the real thing, the true interpretation, who'll stand as mediators with Divinely ordained demonstration and heaven sent words for our obedience is a recipe for deception. "There shall no strange God be in you." (Ps 81
9) God will arise within us, the JEALOUS husband in Zion his chosen place of rest forever. (cp., Ps 132
13-14) I don't care how knowledgable or gifted the man on stage is. He's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!
Quote from: Mickiel on January 27, 2008, 03:11:14 AM
There is NO scenerio that I see that even comes close to this occuring now.
Neither what you were describing nor what I'm indicating seems to be the order of the day. Some things are not seen because we're looking in the wrong places. But some things are hidden until the time. Jesus was no less what He was while in their midst before His manifestation to Israel. It wasn't until when "the fullness of time had come" for Him at about the age of 30 that he began to go about preaching the immediacy of the reign of God and demonstrating it by healing the sick.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 27, 2008, 06:13:44 AM
I am often blessed by what is shared by people with whom I'm not in complete agreement. Actually, if that wasn't the case, who could ever be blessed by another, seeing how different everybody is from everybody else? I can get too mentally picky and betray my welcoming heart. Don't forget, Mickiel, I complimented your beginning posts. I found them to be very creatively stimulating.
Well I thank you for that, and I do not fish for agreement, or for arguement. Me personally, I don't think that good fruit can come from a bad tree. My mailbox receives a vist every now and then from a few who tell me I have helped them understand a little better. I received one just this week from a woman here at Tentmaker, who seemed inspired by a few things. The woman was 76 years old, and I get inspiration from things like that. I know I am a sinner, in desperate need of Gods Spirit influence, so why should I spend my time trying to confuse people, muchless a 76 year old woman? But the woman understood taking a strong stand in what you believe, inspite of the popular oppisition.
Jesus in Matt.24:36-51, for the comming of the son of man will be like the days of Noah. People will be going about their daily lives. Some will think Christ is not comming, others will believe he has already come and that he is now within them. There will exist all kinds of behavior and beliefs. In vs. 45 Jesus laments;"Who then is the Faithful and " Sensible" slave whom his master put in charge of his home to give them their food at a " Proper" time?"
I live to make sense of these things of God, there is no other dominant reason I can see that we are alive. Spiritual things just have to make sense, not just spiritual sounds comming from our mouths, or flowing through our minds. So I will spend my days making sense, and discerning things in their proper time, and those in my house are being fed that. These are things each of us just have to do.
In chapter 25 Jesus just outright compares the Kingdom of Heaven to something that will come all at once and examined the reaction of the virgins who took their lamps to meet the bridegroom. In vs. 3 the foolish took their lamps , but had no oil in them. They had no power source to help them see. They thought they had the oil, or the Holy Spirit, but they didnot. They believed the oil was already come, already within. But Jesus said in vs.13, " You do not know the day or the hour", the day and hour of what? The Kingdom comming to earth. People claiming the Kingdom is now within literally destroy this principle.
But thats the food they feed their house.
Peace.
Mickiel and reFORMer:
Personally, I believe that BOTH of you are right! In fact, it seems that you do not contradict each other at all!
It's like saying, "okay, God can influence us/touch us personally with His Spirit; however, at times, there are BIG moves of God's Spirit that no one can deny nor resist."
(I personally believe that there will be a BIG move of God in the future. That's why I put out the question on another thread, "what would you think if you turned on the TV one night and heard news of people going around and healing and raising the dead?" --It would seem that Christendom today by and large doesn't hold to any such hope! They just want to be raptured away! (Although a few in UR seem to be open to it..))
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 27, 2008, 05:19:29 PM
Mickiel and reFORMer:
Personally, I believe that BOTH of you are right! In fact, it seems that you do not contradict each other at all!
Well yes, I think truth is being spread. In paying close attention to Jesus in Luke 22:18;" For I say unto you, I willnot drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the Kingdom Comes." Well some just feel that Jesus is drinking it now, because they claim the Kingdom is already come within them. I simply doubt that is true. Nothing personal against them, but its just what I read.
Peace.
[quote author=Mickiel
Well yes, I think truth is being spread. In paying close attention to Jesus in Luke 22:18;" For I say unto you, I willnot drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the Kingdom Comes." Well some just feel that Jesus is drinking it now, because they claim the Kingdom is already come within them. I simply doubt that is true. Nothing personal against them, but its just what I read.
Peace.
[/quote]
The bibles reference to the Kingdom of God, are literal to me. In Luke 22:29, again Jesus;" And just as my father has granted me a Kingdom, I grant you." Now some may think that here Jesus is refering to a " Spiritual" issue, but he is not. He is refering to a Geographic location which includes a government structure. And he will give this to his people. He was granted a specific thing that is going to be a literal Kingdom. It will have a palace, a building, gates around the buliding, and rivers flowing through it. Those things cannot be within people, the people will be in it.
I often think to myself that the repentant thief had more insight than the believers of the truth. In Luke 23:42, he ask Christ;" Remember me when you come " In" your Kingdom." Its like he sensed the Kingdom of God was like a ship that will travel back to the earth. Jesus response to him is perhaps better rendered, I say to you this day, that you will be with me in my Kingdom. The thief knew that the Kingdom was comming " With Christ", and will land on the earth.
I do believe that the residents of the Kingdom, are a part of it, such is clear in 1Corinth.15:24 where Christ is said to " Deliver up the Kingdom to the Father." I think people are defintely a part of that deliverance. But they are " Delivered to a Place", and that place IS the kingdom. Daniel 2:44 makes that clear. And that " Place" shall never be destroyed.
If you look at Daniel 7:14, this again is made clear. Jesus was GIVEN a Kingdom, a Dominion. He ALREADY had the Holy Spirit before this was given, so the Kingdom of God is not the Holy Spirit within. A dominion is government over a territory. And I would like to announce the simple definition of a Kingdom, it means a " Territory", a realm or a country. In trying to relate to others who believe the Kingdom of God is a Spiritual thing, I view it as them believing the territory that God and Christ are literally building now, is spiritually being built within them. And I think thats what the bible means by taking the Kingdom by violence, you bring down into yourself, what is stored up in heaven for you. And thats stealing by any definition, and its violent to take something from heaven.
Peace.
Mickiel:
Your perspective on the Kingdom on earth is interesting.
I have a hunch that it will be religious Christendom which will put the two witnesses to death.
The flesh has always been against the Spirit. Power is what the religious want, and they want it for themselves. And anytime someone comes along with a spiritual power that they don't have, they get anxious because the world will follow after that power. They (the religious) realize that they could lose their 'kingdom' and control (and wealth), and kill those with the Spirit.
I would need to hear more about your perspective in order to be truly convinced. Quite honestly, I can imagine "a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness," but I have never given much thought to an earthly kingdom. The reason is because Jesus says to put up treasures where they cannot be corrupted, and where the theif cannot break in and steal.
To me, the religious would, yes, like to steal the Kingdom. Yet they cannot steal it because because they don't even know where it is. And most of Christendom today is not letting people enter the Kingdom because they don't want them to. They prefer to keep the people in ignorance (no power) and under their control.
The beauty of the Kingdom within us is that no one can take that from you. It's a Kingdom that doesn't need light because God Himself is that light.
I say this not because someone told me to say it. Many times I've been asked to join a church, but I don't want to join any group. Fellowship (like we are doing now), okay. But Christendom is mostly for the dead, not the living.
Today I feel Jesus dwelling in me. And to me, that IS the Kingdom. It's not just for me, it's for everyone.
But Christendom that wants to hoard it for themselves.
And if you have this witness in you too, then I rejoice with you. I do not consider you "my property," as Christendom would like to do.
I don't know where I'm going with this..again.... :sigh:
Love to all,
Bri
Italy, can you give me scripture to tell me the Kingdom will not be on earth?
Jenna:
More than not ON earth, my personal feeling is that it will be IN earth (that is, IN you and I). I'm just not convinced that it is something physical that people will see (i.e. come here! or, go there!). Very similar to what Mickiel has said previously, you will see it because of the people that manifest it. All over the place. In hearts everywhere. When and where is up to Him. But we will miss it if we don't judge righteous judgment. That is, if you see a company of people and everyone sick who falls under their shadows gets healed, you better say it's of God! (Religious Christendom will condemn it, however, because it's not "theirs" and not "approved" by them.)
Like what happened when Jesus came to earth, just on a larger scale.
Brian
Italy, the kingdom of God isn't here in our hearts. That would be the Holy Spirit. I do have scripture on this, and will be back as soon as I find it! :happygrin:
A word or two on the Kingdom of God being "within you" .............
I just noticed yesterday this scripture.
Quote
Joh 4
For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
Quote
Joh 7:18 -
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Would seeking his own glory be connected to shewing himself to the world?Even after His Resurrection, He showed Himself to WITNESSES Chosen, not to all. ???
That whole chapter goes into these subjects if you want to check it out.
Emphasis is made on "he that DWELLETH in the SECRET PLACE." Surely, Jesus knew where that PLACE was and DWELLED there til He could say that it was HIS FATHER that "honored" HIM, not man.
HIS FATHER's acceptance of His laying down His LIFE was shown when
He was "raised UP in that SECRET PLACE."
Was He still showing Himself to the world?
He ate and drank with "witnesses" "CHOSEN."
The Bible specifically says " NOT to all,
but to "witnesses chosen".........
There was ONE chosen to take JUDAS's PLACE,
and He was to be a witness..........
there's lots of stuff there to study out. I sure don't have
it all figured out yet myself...but I always wondered why the
Bible didn't say anything further about Matthais.
Emphasis is also made on being "delivered from this PRESENT WORLD."
It is a deep subject being "translated into the Kingdom".....
methinks that is where Elijah was translated to, and Enoch.
And others of course.
Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit...saith the Lord.
After all, it is the work of the Spirit that has to do these things.
I had never noticed that that I highlighted in RED before.
I am open to God showing me about the "outward" but so far, I see it "INWARD."
I think Jesus was "satisfied" with His FATHER knowing HIM inwardly.
When they said "himself seeketh to be known openly."
Was that His desire? Or theirs?
He desired to fellowship
with his disciples "intimately."
That is why He said, "My SHEEP "know" my voice,
and they follow, a stranger they will NOT follow."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meant to say I think there is truth in what Jenna is saying about the HOLY Spirit, and I think
there is truth also in what Itlay is saying. I do see a KINGDOM that God talks about in the
scriptures that there is nothing in but God and what is LIKE God. Daniel speaks of it.
It is all interesting, isn't it?
I believe there is important continuity in the Scriptures where Jesus tells the disciples that they would not taste of death until they had seen the Kingdom of God, and then few days later, He took them up on the mount and was transfigured before them.
Some believe that THIS that the disciples saw is the Kingdom that we seek.
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly
Today I feel Jesus dwelling in me. And to me, that IS the Kingdom. It's not just for me, it's for everyone.
Love to all,
Bri
/quote]
Well you have what you have, me personally, I don't " Feel" Jesus in me. I personally don't know him or God. I sure would like to, sure need to, but whatever has gripped you, has not touched me.
I am a man without these experiences that some of you claim. And from what I have read, those experiences are mostly filled with emotional feelings. I try not to comment on anyonesles experience but my own. I have none, I have not emotionally experienced God. My life is one of being without him, I only hold a hope in him, and some days that hope grows faint.
While others are claiming the Kingdom to be within them, I only know that sin is in me, so my reality is one of indwelling sin.
And thats the only reality I can bear witness to.
Peace.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 13, 2008, 07:57:44 PM
Mickiel:
Well, I must say that there are a couple of scriptures that have come to mind. Indeed, God calls whom He will in His own time. And I believe that will include everyone of us. Example: Jer. 31:34--- "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
All I can say is that I had a feeling that God existed. I began to study the Bible (without much "religious guidance") and I saw that the disciples received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And I saw that they were changed; before it, Peter was ashamed of being a disciple. But after, he considered it a priviledge to suffer persecution for His name's sake!
So I began to pray saying, God, if you're real, I need to FEEL you! It's not enough to just believe.
And one day, it happened! (I wasn't in any church building when it did, either!) Man, what a flood of love!
And from that day, I wanted to talk about Jesus. Before, it wasn't that way.
Again, I hope I don't offend you! It's my experience. And I'm no one special!
Some would say that it was "mind over matter." All I can say is, if it is, we need more of it in this world!
And you know what?
That feeling of love made me understand that our God is a God that saves and cares. He's not like man (just like you said at the start of this thread).
And many of the religious crowd (unfortunately) haven't experienced His love yet. That's why they don't see UR.
Or maybe they just don't WANT to see UR.
Anyway, if I could say one last thing it would be, "don't box God in.--He can do more than we could ever imagine or wish!"
Many blessings!
Bri
Just starting to read through these posts, maybe half-way through, so I hope I'm not mis-speaking. However, although much good has been said so far, I support you in these statements. I believe God will totally change us all, in the future(doesn't scripture speak of putting off the mortal and gaining immortality?), but I believe He is also choosing whom He will right now to save, regenerate according to His own will and purposes....and that we know it when it happens...we become that "new man (person), and all things are becoming to be made new". WILI, give thanks and hold fast to your day(s) of salvation...God's blessing.
Mickiel:
"God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean."
I think you are special to this forum (and probably to others in your life), because you are very honest and not afraid to discuss and dialogue and reflect. Not many people have this gift, and I've seen some people who were this way and then change when they "get religious." Once they were accepting and open; then they "get saved" and start judging and closing up. :mshock:
Don't underestimate your desire to know more about our Father. It is He who gives you that desire! (I see people all day long who wouldn't believe in God if He fell on top of them..)
What I felt that day in 1990 was a unique experience that I never felt since. In fact, there was a moment sometime later that I felt I had lost that "realm."
I would like to experience it again (God knows). Yet His time and ways are not our time and our ways.
So we just continue on, hoping that He'll reveal more of Himself to us, because without His presence we perish. That is the pain of this life.
Can God hold it against us if we ask for something and He doesn't give it to us? I think not.
So we all have to just wait..IMHO..
And in the meantime, we can love each other, as He commanded us.
Love to all,
Brian
Very good post Brian, and Mickiel, God's blessings to you.
Perhaps if I establish for you scripturally Mickiel that the rein of Jesus Christ and the ushering in of his Kingdom began at the cross then you might (just maybe), change your mind. And by chance Luke 22:18 is the exact prophecy that is fulfilled on the cross that I will be addressing.
quote Mickiel
QuoteWell yes, I think truth is being spread. In paying close attention to Jesus in Luke 22:18;" For I say unto you, I willnot drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the Kingdom Comes." Well some just feel that Jesus is drinking it now, because they claim the Kingdom is already come within them. I simply doubt that is true. Nothing personal against them, but its just what I read.
Peace.
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
I actually did write some time back, that this was a prophetic word referring to his crucifixion. Now there were a couple of issues that I had to work through, mainly that there were two instances of being offered sour wine, once before he was fully crucified, and once right before he said "it is finished". Also the other issue that I had to work through for at least one skeptic is whether vinegar or sour wine is actually "fruit of the vine". I'll make these points here as well for you to look over and decide for yourself.
So lets look at that scripture again
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Now in Matthew and Mark he there is clearly 2 difference instances of being offered the sour wine, Mark is most specific, so lets look at it and use the other 3 gospels to add detail as needed.
I shall put my comments in red. It should be noted that the Gospel of Luke is the least informative in the quest for more detail, but in it is the prophetic word regarding the fruit of the vine and the Kingdom. It should also be noted that though Luke lacks detail it does not in any way contradict my findings.
Mark 15:22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23
And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
We see in verse 24 that Jesus was offered wine mixed with myrrh and that he did not receive it, and we see in verse 25 that this happened in the third hour of the day
25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33 And when the
sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
just making a note that in verse 33 we see we are now passing the sixth hour
34 And at the
ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36
And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.now we are in the ninth hour (verse 34) and again he is given vinegar to drink, the Gospel of Mark does not say whether or not he received this second offering, so lets go to The Gospel of John for clarification
37
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore
had received the vinegar, he said,
It is finished: and
he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.Ok, so first lets establish that this is indeed the second offering, as John makes no mention of the first offering that Jesus refused - - we see that immediately after receiving the vinegar and saying "it is finished" that he gives up the ghost...this is clearly the second offering as we refer to Mark chapter 15 verses 36 and 37 that this is the vinegar offered in the ninth hour which after it is received he dies.
Matthew follows very closely what Mark said, and Luke offers very little to clear up the matter, but it does not contradict either.
Ok, so then I got the argument that sour wine or vinegar had lost all of its essence and is essentially not "fruit of the vine" anymore. Here was my response to what fruit of the vine is according to the word to Nazarites:
Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
Well, I think that going by this I can safely say that vinegar or sour wine is still considered "fruit of the vine".
Anyway, I think I have shown that after he said:"I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." that he did indeed drink the fruit of the vine, on the cross, and after he drank it he said "it is finished". I do believe that this established the ushering in of the Reign of Jesus Christ, and his Kingdom.
Again, lest their be debate about whether he did drink the fruit of the vine on the cross (many stop at the instance at the third hour when he refused it and just assume this is the same as the vinegar at the ninth hour, wrongly assume may I say) before saying it is finished, lets look to other translations:
John 19:30
(ASV) When Jesus therefore
had received the vinegar, he said,
It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.
(BBE) So when Jesus had
taken the wine he said,
All is done. And with his head bent he gave up his spirit.
(CEV) After Jesus
drank the wine, he said,
"Everything is done!" He bowed his head and died.
(GNT) ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβε τὸ ὄξος ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς εἶπε· τετέλεσται· καὶ κλίνας τὴν κεφαλὴν παρέδωκε τὸ πνεῦμα. (sorry, I don't know greek)
(ISV) After Jesus had
taken the wine, he said,
"It is finished." Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.
(KJV+) When3753 Jesus2424 therefore3767
had received2983 the3588 vinegar,3690 he said,2036
It is finished:5055 and2532 he bowed2827 his head,2776 and gave up3860 the3588 ghost.4151
(KJVA) When Jesus therefore
had received the vinegar, he said,
It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
(LITV) Then when
Jesus took the vinegar, He said,
It has been finished. And bowing His head, He delivered up the spirit.
(WNT) As soon as
Jesus had taken the wine, He said,
"It is finished." And then, bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.
(YLT) when, therefore,
Jesus received the vinegar, he said, `
It hath been finished;' and having bowed the head, gave up the spirit.
You decide for yourself if the prophetic word that he wouldn't drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom comes was indeed when he drank the fruit of the vine on the cross right before he said it is finished and then died. I must say that all I have written here I did not receive from man, nor church doctrine, nor had I ever even heard these things from any teaching, until I received them from the Spirit of Truth by revelation, yes, it leads us in all truth. I actually didn't do any of the scripture work until after my view was rebutted when I posted it in Mychurch.org. And then, when the scriptures were looked into fully, the Word beared witness to the Spirit.
John 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon
hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
I think their is also some signifigance to it being offered upon the hyssop:
Psalms 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Also, I had posted this on tentmaker before and I can't remember who, I think Cardinal, make the point that perhaps the reason he refused the first mixed wine at the third hour, at the beginning of the crucifixion might be because all was not yet ready for Luke 22:18 to be fulfilled and that this is often how the adversary works, trying to mimic the word and keep us from fully obeying it. Anyway thought that was an interesting point.
Well, the onlookers on Pentecost thought the apostles were drunk.
At any rate, it was special--and I think we could all use some! :bigGrin:
Love to all,
Brian
P.S. Are you still around, Mickiel?
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 29, 2008, 10:04:19 PM
Well, the onlookers on Pentecost thought the apostles were drunk.
At any rate, it was special--and I think we could all use some! :bigGrin:
Love to all,
Brian
P.S. Are you still around, Mickiel?
I am still here, just listening to people. My experience with God is far different than any I read of here. Many of you are truly fortunate. I have had no mind bending experiences with God. No emotional revelations or events, no contact from him, he does not talk to me and I cannot see him. I am still a slave to sin, just not as much of it like in my youth. But I know my flesh still reins over me. My Spirit is willing to know God, to have him in me, but that is not given to me at this time.
You asked me am I still around, I often ask God does he know I am here. Even the ways God chooses to help me in my life, have been unusual and challeging as well as unorthodox. He is stand offish, keeps me from excelling in anything, but sees to my needs. Allows me to learn, but does not give me his Holy Spirit. And keeps me from being a part of any group, has not placed me into his Church.
Its a horrible existance, very painful. Do you know what its like to one day see some Truth in the bible, know that Gods Spirit is right then teaching you, and be in awe of that, but at the same time realize that the Spirit will not stay in you, it will leave and you will be almost defenseless to this flesh.
Do you know what it is like to really hunger and Thirst for God? To long to know the truth about all things? To crave with all your heart, just to be able to live right and Holy.
Having a Consciousness like this is a hell within itself. So I find then some wisdom in the saying;" I doubt that God would have me live in hell all my life, only to die and go to hell for eternal life."
Peace.
That sounds truly sad, yet I dare say your experience is not unique. My own experiences are not nearly so void of His involvement, yet many I interact with have had experiences similar to yours.
If I knew of any sure fire way to find Him, I would happily share it. Yet He seems to come to all of us as He finds it beneficial. Seems you are searching. Perhaps too hard? I have never seen anyone succeed in knocking down His door. Nor have I ever seen Him knock down someone's door to take over their will and change them. Granted, these things may happen, but not that I have seen.
My personal observations have been that when one has spent years dwelling in ourselves oblivious to His presence, it is not that He is absent, but that He is not going to fight you over who's will be done. Free will must give way to His will freely. And you can take back your own free will at any time. Once we have finally realized that our own willfulness is leading us nowhere, and we finally ask Him what He thinks, the answers will come. And once you have invited Him back into your life, it's harder to turn your back on Him. It happens, but not as signifigantly, and we know it, and regret it.
Quote from: Reverend G on January 30, 2008, 02:06:16 AM
That sounds truly sad, yet I dare say your experience is not unique. My own experiences are not nearly so void of His involvement, yet many I interact with have had experiences similar to yours.
If I knew of any sure fire way to find Him, I would happily share it. Yet He seems to come to all of us as He finds it beneficial. Seems you are searching. Perhaps too hard? I have never seen anyone succeed in knocking down His door. Nor have I ever seen Him knock down someone's door to take over their will and change them. Granted, these things may happen, but not that I have seen.
My personal observations have been that when one has spent years dwelling in ourselves oblivious to His presence, it is not that He is absent, but that He is not going to fight you over who's will be done. Free will must give way to His will freely. And you can take back your own free will at any time. Once we have finally realized that our own willfulness is leading us nowhere, and we finally ask Him what He thinks, the answers will come. And once you have invited Him back into your life, it's harder to turn your back on Him. It happens, but not as signifigantly, and we know it, and regret it.
Well I am not sure myself. I get email from time to time, from people who have read something that I wrote. I quess because they were impressed with it, or moved by it, they assumed that I know God, and that my life is " Spiritually Strong." They then ask me for some kind of help, you can tell they are digging for God themselves. Well I always try to be real with them, discern what I can, and encourage people from that vein of realness. As you say, people cannot force Gods hand, he will come, how and when he does, and thats just how it is. Some are shocked when I tell them I am not converted, they are taken back, surprised at that. But thats just the truth. We have to be what we are, and hope for God to change that, or bring you higher.
We overstep our bounds when we manipulate God, or use our strong desires to create within us, what God has not. This is the foundation of the " Worldly Churchs", self elevated movements toward God, and Universalist are not immune to this. Its simular to romance, a man can be so strongly attracted to a woman, that he advances toward her, irreguardless of if she advances toward him. He convinces himself, through his own desire, that she is for him. And some will get violent in this process, and try to take her violently, but to him it is not violence, it is romance.
Well I see this same senerio occuring in some people who are in romance with God, they just desire him so strongly. You and I know this is not a matter of right or wrong, its never wrong to strongly desire God. But people, in the heat of their desire, are assuming that God has done something to them, when he may not have.
I recall comming up in the Baptist church in my youth. I enjoyed a good group of freindships with some wonderful young men in this church. I noticed that eventually, each and everyone of them began to " Become Preachers." Being close to them, I asked each of them how they came to this decision. They each claimed God called them, spoke to them in a dream. I remember so many people in that church, kept telling me " I was next." Oh what pressure that was. But I never surcame to it. I was a great speaker and teacher, at such a young age, but I kept waiting for God to call me, speak to me, but he never did, so I refused to submit to that great pressure, but I always felt left out.
I am no different now, than I was then. Here we are blessed with such wonderful, challanging awareness as the Salvation of all, very controversal belief. I am still surrounded by a good group of believers, each taking off into their calling, each making great spiritual claims of what God has given them.
And he still has not given it to me. So my reaction now, is the same as it was then. I cannot call and annoint myself, nor can people, I will rely on God for that. So I am still waiting on that to happen. And waiting on God is a horrible experience. Because there is a certain thing inside of human nature called " Coveting", and it is very powerful and mighty. I have seen people be given knowledge, and just take off with it and " Become Gods Kings on Earth", and just became his church, his minister, in their minds.
I know that God does not want this for me. He has conditioned me from my youth, to accept that I am nothing without him, and to never elevate myself. And to understand that " A Coveting" exist within me that, without his influence, I will just do what everyonelse has done, and take him for myself.
The thoughts and desires of just being his annointed, the inner pulls of the " Glory" of that, the personal AND public gradification of just being called by him, all these are too much for me, so I need God to squash these things, or I will fall into them.
So to me, God is a Conscious awareness, a hope, and that is all he dangles to me at this time. And nothingelse dangled to me in this world, is greater in my mind, than just the hope of God.
Peace.
Because of the vaguaries of translation use of an inter-linear would help note more exactly; but something I did a long time ago was circle the word "IN"s every occurence in the first chapter of Ephesians. That should open some things for a lot of people. It seems very relevant to some of what you express. Exercise your faith in the words of Scripture on this matter. The true faith is not a work of your own. It accords with grace.
I've noticed that those steeple houses of people that don't teach Divine Healing seldom experience any in their midst, even if they testify of experiencing "the new birth." Those that give some attention to teach healing, it's Biblical basis, see it occur. Not for everybody all the time, but regularly. Isn't the reason for the difference plain to see?
(Though I digress, another similar enlightening exercise is to circle with blue pencil any occurence of "spirit-s,-ual" in 1 Corithians which was written to counteract their unspiritual carnality.)
Mickiel, just an observation, but I notice that you speak of "coveting" alot as though it is a bad thing. I disagree, and believe that the commandment was not to covet your neighbor's stuff, and has nothing to do with coveting the things of God.
Let us see what we are not to covet:
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deuteronomy 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Micah 2:2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.
To me coveting in itself is not a bad thing, rather it is the coveting of other peoples "goods" that is bad, and not out of love for them.
Lets take a look at things we not only may, but should covet:
1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Anyway, just a thought, as I was getting the impression from you that all coveting is either bad or unscriptural, which is not the case at all.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 30, 2008, 10:29:32 AM
Mickiel, just an observation, but I notice that you speak of "coveting" alot as though it is a bad thing. I disagree, and believe that the commandment was not to covet your neighbor's stuff, and has nothing to do with coveting the things of God.
.
Well I understand that, I really do. To covet is to want and desire, those things in and of themselves are natural, we will do them , and nothing will stop us from doing it. I cannot say that God does not want humans to desire him, I think he does, I think it is impossible for a human conscious, to not be attracted to life, thus the life giver.
But I just see things differently than you. In Acts 26:14 Paul was on a punishing and killing mission, those he didnot kill, he tried to force them to blaspheme. And the chief priest gave him authority to do that. God intercepted him, and asked him just two things; Why are you doing this, and then a physcological question that I view as the very nature of coveting. Is it hard for you to kick against the goads? What God meant was that he was stimulating the believers himself, driving their belief, and Paul was really being against that, but really didnot know God was behind it. The lesson here is one of who is driving the desire of the human, and I just believe that even Godly desire, is not always driven by God.
God often sent a person into a company of worshippers, only to hint to them that they were not true worshippers. Who in that company would believe that? None of them, they are usually convinced in their belief. That conviction is always centered on two things; Coveting, and Pride. Desire and ego in that desire.
Now, Tentmaker may want to project the appearance of being a house set in Gods order, but I see somethingelse. Some may covet the calling, and accept to themselves that God has done that, but I see some problems with that. But, you know, whos going to listen to that, not if you think yourself signed, sealed and delivered. Not only here, but everywhere I go I see this. I think God is using desire, even desire for him, in creative ways that would baffle the best phycologists amoung us. And God is deadly in this. He will let someone do something, think something, for years and be totally wrong in their thinking. Let you kill and decieve, cause others to blaspheme, then turn around and annoint you an Apostle.
Conversely, he will let a whole group of people think themselves annointed, and leave them inside of that bowl for years, mixing all kinds of things into it, only for them to be the group that he desires a certain point of deception be well laid on earth. Or he can bring a whole group of people together, just to get " One" of them out of the group, and then he totally ignores the rest. You can't do anything with a power like this, and he is using our desires all along the way. Telling us not to kill, then calling killers into his service. Telling us not to covet, and using coveting to impact his dealings with human pathology.
Anyway, I am too long.
Peace.
[quote author=Mickiel link=topic=
You can't do anything with a power like this, and he is using our desires all along the way. Telling us not to kill, then calling killers into his service. Telling us not to covet, and using coveting to impact his dealings with human pathology.
Anyway, I am too long.
Peace.
[/quote]
As I consider God, I am moved to consider his doings. Perhaps unlike some here, I have spent time in jail. Not much, but the longest stretch was a week. And I have worked inside of a jail, being employed to counsel prisioners. So we had to be behind a " Locked in environment" for 8 to often 16 hour shifts. There is something about being locked up, that " Does Things" to the human consciousness. Men were not meant to be imprisioned, its just one of those things that has to be. Some inmates handle it better than others, some are actually improved by the experience. I hated the few times I went through it, and it created within me a great respect for the laws of our land, and a great love for my freedom. Working in the environment is different, you know your leaving at the end of the shift.
The feeling of wanting to be free is a very strong emotion. When God created and encased humans within the flesh, he created a very special thing called " Life", but he gave humans life here on earth. I think the first humans created couldnot sin, because they held no consciousness. Animals do not sin, because they have no consciousness. But when God introduced consciousness, or " His likeness and Image", into Adam, eventually sin multiplied so quickly, that God almost destroyed the earth, but instead purged it. So God can purge a planet, with anything, using fire or water.
Just usings sins chronology, it has increased more dramitcally since Gods last purge. But God has just applied grace with this increase. But when a human is encased within a prisom, contained within a fixed in environment, it just does things to the human. Even the earth itself groans out for freedom.
And I wonder what God is doing with this.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel,
Im so surprised to read you saying you don't feel the Holy Spirit in you. I read some of your earlier posts and you seem so wise – I thought you must be especially blessed. You must be an exceptional person to be able to devote so much energy and thought to God's purposes if you receive so little back. God must have a special plan for you.
God bless you.
I understand where you are coming from Mickiel, that mans desire has caused bad things at times, but I really don't think you have understood fully what I was getting at as far as "coveting", otherwise you wouldn't have said this:
quote Mickiel
QuoteTelling us not to covet, and using coveting to impact his dealings with human pathology.
Where has God told us not to covet?
Please show me in scripture where God has told us not to covet so that I can better understand your point. As your point seems to based on the fact that God has told us not to covet, and I cannot, for the life of me, find this in scripture.
As best I can tell from my studies on scripture, God never told anyone not to covet, except in a particular case: he said don't covet your neighbors possesions. I can see that at some point this "thou shall not covet anything" and that coveting in itself is a sin, has been hammered into you, but was this belief based on scripture, and if so please show me. Or if I have misunderstood your statement quote Mickiel
QuoteTelling us not to covet
, then please show me how.
[quote author=arcticmonster2003 link=topic=1761.
As best I can tell from my studies on scripture, God never told anyone not to covet, except in a particular case: he said don't covet your neighbors possesions. I can see that at some point this "thou shall not covet anything" and that coveting in itself is a sin, has been hammered into you, but was this belief based on scripture, and if so please show me. Or if I have misunderstood your statement quote Mickiel
QuoteTelling us not to covet
, then please show me how.Quote.
Well I cannot show you what your own mind will block. Coveting is lusting. It is desire and want. Now if you must only see the word, or term covet in scripture, then you will not see lust or want or desire as meaning the same thing. Futhermore if you stay blind to that, then you are blind to all that is in this world. 1John 2:16, is a verse on coveting. But listen, as I have said, I only continue when I sense a willingness from others to understand. Not a will to disagree just for the sake of it.
Right now, you are in an area of fighting your points. I have moved to an area of confidence in my points, so it matters not to me who fights them, as it matters to you.
Peace.
[/quote]
I was gonna say something but Adam already said it.
It's true that God knocked down Paul's door. (I disagree with ReverendG on this point.)
Since He knocks down people's doors, we are obviously subject to His plans, and not vice versa. (The problem of Christendom is precisely this.)
I therefore see "free will" as almost a "non-concept." To me today, we are either in the dark or in the light. (Not saying that those in the dark are not saved--to me they are saved. -They just haven't seen God's light yet.)
Gotta go--my colleagues want to take a coffee break..
Love to all,
Bri
Back from the espresso thing..
Anyway, there are lots of scriptures that Christendom just doesn't talk about nor understand. (Not that I understand them. I just look at them with awe.)
An example?
where David writes that if he makes his bed in Sheol ("hell"), God is there.
Christendom just won't talk about it. It's like it's taboo.
People here, instead, DO talk about them. Praise God! (And hooray for Tentmaker!)
Love to all,
Bri
Mickiel,
I do agree that 1 John 2:16 is describing coveting, and I do agree that to seek after the the things of the world is certainly not profitable, as we are called to seek those things which are above instead. Thanks for providing a scripture.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Colossians 3:1 ¶If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Don't misquote me now, I never said He could not or would not "knock down someone's door", I accept it may happen, but that I have never known anyone privy to such an experience.
ReverendG:
Now I understand what you meant.. I apologize if I offended you!
Which makes me think..Paul truly had a very unique experience, didn't he? Knocked off his high horse, and after he received the revelation of Jesus, he went away for about three years. (Wasn't he supposed to start handing out tracts or something? Go to seminary maybe? :laughing7: )
Galatians 1: 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ...
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Three years is a long time.. Christendom wouldn't have gone along with that at all..
Love and blessings to all,
Bri
No offence to any who may hand out tracts or frequent a seminary..!!! :boyheart:
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 31, 2008, 06:00:00 PM
ReverendG:
Now I understand what you meant.. I apologize if I offended you!
Which makes me think..Paul truly had a very unique experience, didn't he? Knocked off his high horse,
Bri
I certainly didn't have Paul's unique experience, however, my "day" God chose to drag me to His side was certainly a day different from all others...not sure I had much if any real choice, it was more like "He intended to have me"...I asked my wife (raised Baptist, denominational all her life) about her day of God coming to her and asking for her response if she felt she really had a choice...she said no...I know this is a tricky discussion, and I believe we obviously have been give the responsibility to make some decisions, however, God will arrange things so they occur "after the counsel of His own will" and He will, in His timing, "draw [literally 'drag'] all men unto Me". God's blessing.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 31, 2008, 02:39:56 PM
Mickiel,
I do agree that 1 John 2:16 is describing coveting, and I do agree that to seek after the the things of the world is certainly not profitable, as we are called to seek those things which are above instead. Thanks for providing a scripture.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Well yes, part of understanding scripture, is to go deeper into the meaning of the things it discuss. Coveting, will cover a wide range of both human desire that is good, or it can be evil. Its not just limited to whats listed in the ten commandments. And yes, even God can be coveted. The reason why Jesus said " In vain do they worship me", is because they coveted him in ways that he does not approve of. These people discussed here, are believers in God, worshipping him, or coveting him, but were doing so, and still do so, under the influence of their family traditions, so Jesus rejects there worship.
Now when Jesus does this, he knows the heart desire of these worshippers, hey, they are trying to communicate with him. They want him, desire him, covet him, its just that Jesus is not in aggrement with their doctrines. Doctrines themselves can be an extention of coveting in some situations.
The nature of coveting is vast, which is why put it in the 10 commandments in the first place. We even covet ourselves. In Rom.12:3; we are told not to think of ourselves more highly that we ought to. We can fall into the coveting of our own self worth. Its not wrong to value yourself, but it is wrong to over value your esteem. And people create doctrines that have come from an overestimation of themselves. Once self has reached a very highly esteemed level, its just hard to back down from such a lofty view. When a believer in God does this, they are open to all kinds of distortion, and they will defend themselves just as highly distorted. Seeking to establish themselves as right, their zeal for God is great, but it has passed the point of being in accordance with Gods knowledge, and from their own knowledge, they unknowlingly are really submitting to the knowledge of God, which then moves them into areas of worship that Jesus rejects.
Peace.
I think you're writing some very truthful things Mickiel. Coveting can be a sin, whereas desiring "coveting" the gifts of the Spirit may be different.
If what we do is moved with a sincere heart in love, it should be difficult to go wrong.
Example: if someone wants to grow in the Lord, that might be considered a good thing. If that seeking and growth leads to becoming more of a Son, it's "good." If it leads to self-righteousness, a judgmental spirit and lack of heart, it's "bad."
These are big issues.
It's also true that God moves when He wants to. Not everybody agrees with it at first, but in the end, even when we pray fervently, God doesn't always show up as we expect or when we expect.
Your mention of life in prison was important to me. Yes, this whole world is suffering. Someday, we shall be made free.
One thing remains: that when we cast our ALL onto the Lord, He takes the burden for us. At least I can speak for myself, He has never abandoned me, although the road is sometimes rocky and dark.
Maybe all of the suffering is where our salvation is being worked out..
Love to all,
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 31, 2008, 10:29:49 PM
I think you're writing some very truthful things Mickiel. Coveting can be a sin, whereas desiring "coveting" the gifts of the Spirit may be different.
Well yes, one can covet even in desiring the things of the Spirit. Many christians here may look at this subject as if they themselves are immune to it, as if they cannot covet the things of God. But it is being done, and just unreconized by those who do it.
Coveting the things of the Spirit, is excessive unusual claims about what it has done in you. Or asking God to do excessive unusual things for you. In Matt. 20:23, the mother of James and John request of Jesus that he let James and John sit on his left and right in the Kingdom. A lofty request, which is a coveting of the Spirit. I know many here don't like to think about it, but I think the claims of the Kingdom being now within them, and that they are now Born Again, is the same excessive inordinate desire. The same Spirit of coveting, the same excessive desire, the same kind of thinking that requires God to do more than he is either ready to do, or even wants to do.
For example, if the parent tells the child that they " Can" have something, it will be given to them, its for them, but they will get it next month. If the child takes it before next month, they have possessed something that they " Know is Theirs", so they won't view it as coveting. I think many believers are in this catagory with the Kingdom now being within and now being Born again. They have taken it, and willnot view it as coveting the things of God.
In Matt. 6:19-21;" Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where thieves break in and steal." Keep them in heaven where they cannot be stolen. For where your treasure is there will your heart be also. Being Born Again and having Gods Kingdom on Earth right now, are indeed treasures, they stimulate the Spiritual Consciousness, but for some reason people don't seem to believe that they can be stolen on earth. Will a man rob God, of course he will, espically the Priest of God, they have more access to the goods of God.
When Esau sold his birthright to Jacob, it was done because of coveting bread and Lentil Stew. Excessive inordinate desire, simple food for a Birthright. So the inordinate desire is always either expressed in the inner drive of the person, or the lofty prize they covet.
And Coveting is a sin that the bible mostly places emphisis on believers committing, this is no outside job.
Christian have a way of depersonalizing things and always point the finger outward instead of inward.
Peace.
I admit that sometimes I'm jealous of Paul. I think, "Lord, you gave him a direct revelation of You right from the start! (Today Christendom tells people, 'choose Jesus!!,' as if it depended on them!)
But You chose Paul. And he saw things that weren't lawful to utter (whatever that would imply). His life had red-letter in it!"
Today many Christians want a life filled with "red-letter." Like on another post here, one said that God told him to do A. The other said that God told him to do B. And they ended up fighting. (The real Spirit of Christ would yield to the other, I would believe. Jesus also said "resist not evil.")
Patience! God will do all good things in His time!
I'm just grateful He has placed a desire in me to seek Him. Otherwise I'd still be out there doing what I was doing before....which wasn't very good! And He is GOOD!
Love to all,
Bri
Quote from: Mickiel
Christian have a way of depersonalizing things and always point the finger outward instead of inward.
Peace.
/quote]
In Matt.23:24-26, Jesus goes directly into the nature of " Spiritual Coveting", or claiming more than God has offered, or just trying to swallow more things of God, before you have finished digesting the first few gulps. Because of understandable desire, we tend to want " Big Gulps."
And these verses Jesus taught are directed at believers, who are trying to consume more righteousness. " You blind guides", so he is discussing believers who try to guide others, " Who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel." Swallowing the camel is stuffing things into your belief that are a bit much for you right now. Vs.25;" Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self indulgence." Can a man rob God, well yes, through the coveting of excessive spiritual desires. Big gulps of Gods blessings and promises, or a camel. Large annointings and things that look so good on the outside, meaning things you proclaim in public. Your image of what you now are. Things we rob and indulge ourselves with like treasure.
Firts clean the inside of the cup, the public image and confessions will come later. And they will. Deal with how you really are. Because its not the Knowledge going in you that deceives you, its the beliefs that are comming out of you, which are really hurting your belief. If you are not ready to understand and explain the lake of fire, the hell verses, the kingdom of God, being born again, your just not ready. You don't have to swallow those things, and spit out vain speculations, it the proper time, when GOD GIVES IT, you will then have it.
People claim to have the Holy Spirit, but always speak of a certain day or event that they were given it, as if that be proof. No, no, speak of the undeniable fruits of the Spirit that are consistantly growing out from you.
Let me give a real example of a witness comming from a Spirit filled person, just in example. It would be like this; " Brothers let me tell you what God has done to me." I am much more patient than ever before. I Love people now, where I didnot prior. I am happy and full of a Joy that I never understood. I am actually naturally Kind each day to anyone. Goodness is a part of my nature, and it is expressing ITSELF from within me, to outside of me. I am Faithful to Gods word, and pleasing God in my living. My nature is really Kind, my heart is far more Kind than I know I was. And I have a supernatural self control about my self.
This is the witness of the Spirit filled person, NOT some calender emotional event. This is the Revelation one will receive, " Right from the Start" of God giving his Holy Spirit. And there will be no doubt that this has occured within you, because it will come out of you. It will overtake you, just as sin and the lust of the flesh overtook you. Christian characther is not mere moral or legal correctness, but the actual " Possession" AND manifestation of Gods graces. Christian characther IS NOT taking possession of the promises of God! It is NOT taking Gods word in faith and making claims on Gods word.
Christian characther will reflect an inner, THEN outer portrait of Christ. In this it is understood correctly that it " Is no longer I, but Christ IS now in me." Not the promises of Christ in you, the actual Spirit and Mind of Christ, IS now in you, BECAUSE it is comming out of you in YOUR living, thinking, dreaming while unconscious, and expressing your consciousness in your changed behavior. This characther is only possible when a very vital union with Christ has been established. If Jesus has not finished this within you, and you take it from him and claim it, your just taking big gulps.
Peace.
As the world turns, anticipation turns with it. To many, Christ is comming tommorrow, so those many must somehow fulfill the scripture tonight. They rush his comming, they rush in interpiting scripture, they rush in receiving his gifts. To others, Christ delays his comming, so they continue on and anticipate nothing soon. To Jesus it was simple, he does not know when his Father will bring the Kingdom. And if Jesus does not know when the Kingdom comes, then there does not exist now some secret passage, where it came within selective humans now. Jesus said not even the day or the hour is known, Matt.24:36, not even Angels are aware of it. Interestingly, some have received a " Holy Pass" from this, and have already received the Kingdom within. Their citizenship was in Heaven, but somehow they transfered it down here now. And I think it is due to great Anticipation, or great desire to realize something before hand. To foretaste or forsee, or as in a narrative, to take something before the expected time. Or simply to Covet.
Jesus compares The Kingdom to two simple things in Luke 13:18-21. The mustard seed that a man threw into " His Own" garden, and it grew and " Became " a tree. This could be a literal reference to the garden of Eden, which is Jesus " Own Garden." He then compared it to " Hidden Leaven", which was hidden until it " Was All" leavened. Not bits and selective parts of it, until it was " All" leavened. The Kingdom is Leavened as a whole, not in parts, so it cannot be in selective people now.
So the Kingdom of God can be compared to something Christ is preparing, and hideing, until all of the Kingdom is ready.
But anticipation can change the meaning of scripture, espically scripture that tingles the taste buds of the Coveting consciousness.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on February 02, 2008, 06:44:19 PM
As the world turns, anticipation turns with it.
But anticipation can change the meaning of scripture, espically scripture that tingles the taste buds of the Coveting consciousness.
Peace.
A classic example of this ability of anticipation, is Luke 17:20-21." Now having been questioned by The Pharisees as to when the Kingdom of God was comming, he answered them and said, " The Kingdom of God is not comming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, " Look, here it is or there it is. For behold, the Kingdom of God is in your Midst." Here Jesus really couldnot give them a time when the Kingdom was comming, because he does not know the answer, only the Father knows that. Matt.24:36 is clear on that. So Jesus gave a different view to them, he told them the Kingdom would come, but not with " Outward signs that men would reconize", then he swtiches back and makes a reference to " Himself", he said the Kingdom is in your Midst.
Jesus was NOT refering to the Kingdom being " Inside of the Pharisees", but he was talking DIRECTLY to them. The Kingdom of God was not in the Pharisee, but Jesus was standing in their Midst. Which is what the Greek word " Entos" means, in THEIR Midst. Or standing in the middle of them. Many Kingdom coveters use this verse as a catapolt to their belief of the Kingdom " Being in their Midst", or being literally inside of them. Jesus was not inside of the Pharisees, but he refered to himself here as the Kingdom. So from this point of view, many believers see Jesus as being inside of them, so they see it as the Kingdom being within them.
Of course I disagree with that. I personally believe the Kingdom of God was planted within the Garden of Eden. Or centered there. It is a literal place, and God uses the symbolism of " Trees" to explain it to humanity. In Ezekiel 17:23-24, this is explained. In Eden, God planted the " Tree of Life", that Tree is a basic root of the Kingdom. Its root structure and its branches, willnot be uprooted from that literal place, and placed within people. But if you " Spiritualize" this, then you can change the meaning of it. When God uses " Symbols" to explain something, then anyone can introduce their own meaning into it.
People will come to that " Tree of Life" and receive healing from it. So its easy to believe that we can " Eat from the Tree", literally eat its leaves, and thus internalize them, thus the Kingdom is now within us. And I understand that. But would only agree with this occuring when God brings the Tree to earth for all to consume its power. Then the people and the Kingdom land will be one. Who can resist the temptation to " Be One with it now!" This is the allure of the " High " calling, and it certainly does make you high, higher than any drug that I am aware of.
Peace.
Mickiel:
I agree with much of what you write. We cannot "force" the Kingdom to come.
Rather, maybe we should be more concerned with not resisting it when it does come! (whenever that might be..)
And some "unbelievers" have their eyes open more than many of us "believers!"
Just a thought anyway...!
Bri
quote whyiloveitaly
QuoteAnd some "unbelievers" have their eyes open more than many of us "believers!"
I disagree. While there eyes may be open, they are standing in the dark, and therefore cannot see anything. Jesus Christ is the Light, without him there is no light. What is it you think unbelievers "have their eyes open to" while seperated by unbelief from Jesus Christ?
Unbelief, can actually be a form of punishment.
Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder,
and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Hi Arcticmonster2003!
What I'm saying is that some "unbelievers" are able to recognize truth more than "believers."
Believing does not depend upon us. It depends on God.
Bri
Jesus Christ is the Way, the Light, and the Truth. If they have not yet accepted the Truth, then what foundation are they building their house of truths upon, for they have denied the very Son of God, whom came in the flesh. Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They have denied, as of yet, while they are still called "unbelievers", mans only task in which he was given to complete by his Maker - and they speak of "truth"?
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Again I ask you, which truths do unbelievers recognize more than believers. Give a couple of examples please.
Arcticmonster2003:
There are people who are involved daily in helping and supporting their neighbors who are suffering and who are lonely. Many of them are not "Christian" by church standards. But their works speak otherwise.
Being a Christian is not about correct doctrine; it's about correct action.
Brian
I am surprised that you have witnessed that unbelievers do this more that believers. This is not what I have witnessed. But if that's what you have witnessed then thats that, thats your witness, I'll not argue with what you have bore witness to.
Arcticmonster2003:
Unfortunately, that is what I see. Maybe we could dedicate a thread to this as well...?
Bri
Universal Salvation is a Conscious Awareness that is not based on Awareness. In 2Tim.2:9 Paul stated that he had to be imprisoned, but that " The Word of God cannot be Imprisoned." Yet so many people are not aware of Gods word, but the Truth is not based on their awareness. So the Truth has not yet " Entered into their Consciousness", because once the Truth enters into a Consciousness, " It cannot be imprisoned in that Consciousness", nor will it hold limitations. The Truth cannot be constrained, it cannot be locked down, it will not atrophe or corrode.
Peace.
I wanted to go back over a few things in this post on Consciousness, because I think many of us actually are giving themselves too much credit for their own Consciousness, and from this self adorned crowning, comes many of the disputes that we see people are having. In 2 Pet. 1:21, " For no Prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit of God."
Now whatever percentage of the bible is Prophecy, none of that was self induced Prophecy, or the opinion of the writers. Yet its very important in the Spiritual relating of things to understand that the most important of things, are inspired by God, not human learning or perception. An act of human will, is self inspired viewpoint. And because we hold consciousness, we like to think that our thoughts are Spiritual, that our teachings are valid. But being moved by the Holy Spirit, is not a magnification of self consciousness. Or self awareness, there is a thin line in believing that God has installed a self improvement program on the Earth, as in understanding that the Spirit brings out an awareness of God first, not a centerline on yourself awareness.
Men moved by the Holy Spirit; In Christ we live and are Moved, and have our being. Is the annointing of God a Movement of you being steeped in personal growth patterns that are so great, that you Spiritually leap past and above normal humans?
No, in fact , at times I think its the oppisite, a lowering, a humiliation, a dying that locks you into areas that you do not want to be in, yet God is actively working on your " Subconsciousness", and actually doing a lot of Spiritual work there.
And I want to get into that some.
Peace.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corithians 3:16)
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to (lit, in) them that are lost (lit, perishing): In whom the god of this world (lit, eon) hath blinded the minds (lit, apprehensions) of them which believe not..." (2 Cor 4:3-4)
Galatians 5:16-18...
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Which desire determines your nature? To be motivated by the lusting of the Spirit brings about the transformation into the image of God, from glory into glory.
-------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 12:31...
31 But covet earnestly (be zealous of) the best gifts (lit, greater graces): and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (lit, And still I am showing you a path according to transcendence.)
"The Love Chapter" (1 Corinthians 13)
1Corinthians 14:1...
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather (even more) that ye may prophesy.
-------------------------------------------
James 4:4-6...
4...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
One of God's names is JEALOUS! (Exodus 34:14) We are being confomed to His image and likeness (lit, phantom and similitude.)
Romans 8:2,5-14...
2...the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Ephesians 4:3-14...
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Entos is plural for "in!" (not, "with," or, "among," which is meta.)
2 Corinthians 4:6-7...
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Doesn't look like just one verse to me! God commands us to covet spiritual manifestations. We're God's temple and He is in us with all His Jealous lusting, causing our spirit (in union with His) to lust, unless we're none of His.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 31, 2008, 06:00:00 PM
ReverendG:
Now I understand what you meant.. I apologize if I offended you!
No offense taken! I myself have had my own spiritual experiences, some quite dramatic, and others I know have as well. The thing being that upon reflection, the path that led to us being open to such experiences was plain to see. To be knocked for a loop out of the blue, like a kid sleeping in class....what a concept.
Which makes me think..Paul truly had a very unique experience, didn't he? Knocked off his high horse, and after he received the revelation of Jesus, he went away for about three years. (Wasn't he supposed to start handing out tracts or something? Go to seminary maybe? :laughing7: )
Galatians 1: 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ...
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Three years is a long time.. Christendom wouldn't have gone along with that at all..
Love and blessings to all,
Bri
I understand this subject to be perhaps both meat and hard bones, tuff meat, needing marinating by the Holy Spirit, or it may insult your spiritual intelligence. But just talk with God about it, he means well for us. Hes not trying to trip us up. God will work on your subconscious way before he gives you his Spirit. Again use Jesus as the example of this. For 30 years, the very Son of God lived on this earth without the Spirit comming upon him. And He was Conceived by it! But he was being prepared all those years. In Matt. 3:16 he was finally baptised and the Spirit " Came upon him."
Now here we have Jesus, born of the Spirit, lived 30 years and NEVER claimed that he had the Spirit of God. This example is totally useless to the presentday Sons of God, because they refuse to believe that they can be conscious of God, led by God, prepared by God, but the Spirit not yet has come upon them.
Thats because Universal Salvation is BOTH a Conscious and Subconscious Awareness, but the receiving of Gods Spirit is not based on that awareness.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corithians 3:16)
Romans 8:8-10...
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. (2 Corinthians 4:7)
God cohabits the same body with us, His Spirit in union with our spirit, which quickens us to life that operates as a law superior to the law of sin unto death that is the normal state of once-born men in the flesh. By His presence manifesting within us we are raised into newness of life to be seated in the heavenlies with Christ. This is Scripture and this is the testimony of many who have recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:38-40...
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Without the gift of the Holy Spirit there is no Eclessia (Church) because it is His body and would be a dead body without His Spirit. As Scripture says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26) You promote an idea that is the opposite of Scripture. The following illustrates:
2 Corinthians 5:14-18...
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God...
Your teaching, according to the Scriptures I've quoted, leaves us still in the flesh and unable to please God. We're still dead in trespasses and sins. But the promise of the Spirit is still fulfilled for whoever God calls to Himself. It is only by the spirit that we are able to percieve God. Without that we cannot be transformed. As it is written:
2 Corinthians 3:15-18...
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Paul's testimony is the same as mine and many others:
2 Corinthians 4:10-11...
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
If you do not die to your flesh, which is an operation of the Spirit of God, then you spiritually die, rendering you incapable of manifesting the life of Jesus.
Galatians 2:20...
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
His faith!
2 Corinthians 13:5-6...
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
[quote author=Mickiel
Now here we have Jesus, born of the Spirit, lived 30 years and NEVER claimed that he had the Spirit of God. This example is totally useless to the presentday Sons of God, because they refuse to believe that they can be conscious of God, led by God, prepared by God, but the Spirit not yet has come upon them.
Thats because Universal Salvation is BOTH a Conscious and Subconscious Awareness, but the receiving of Gods Spirit is not based on that awareness.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Jesus is the Firstborn of many bretheren, and he lived in the flesh, 30 years, without having Gods Spirit come upon him, which means most of his earthly life. So you think that your life is going to be different than his? You think your going to have Gods Spirit most of your Life, Jesus didn't, and he IS the Standard set. Jesus life IS the example of how God gives his Spirit
and we can learn from what God did to him. God does not change in his manner of dealing with his Sons. There are NO examples in the bible of any human having Gods Spirit for a long extended amount of time, with the only possible exceptions of Noah or Job, and I am not even 100% convinced about them. But I think Job had to have it. Because he was perfect in all his ways.
Jesus firsts 30 years on earth were developmental years, training and learning, and Living WITHOUT the annointing he received at his Baptism. And I believe this is exactly what God is doing, has done, to those who he is interested in choosing now. The Calling of God, is without the Holy Spirit, it has not come " Upon You", although your learning may be conceived by it, your consciousness pricked by it some time ago, as Jesus was conceived by it.
Now I have said many times, that those called, do receive " Vistations" from the Spirit, it will deal with them, but it comes and goes, this is how the Spirit does me, it does not stay. Notice this principle in John 1:33; and look close. Many of you faulter by looking at Gods word, but not looking closer at it, deeper into it. Speaking of Jesus;" He upon whom you see the Spirit descending AND " Remaining" upon him. Notice how John said this. The Spirit comming, AND Remaining! That is very important in understanding how God uses his Spirit. Because more than often, God sends the Spirit upon people, but it does not remain upon them. And this is why there is no church of God on earth now, because the Spirit is visting, but not remaining, and the people are not conscious of this. So God is teaching their subconsciousness, more than he is their conscious minds. When God opens a person to new truth, its not really new, its already within their subconscious mind, God just opens it up to their consciousness, and thats how we really learn, and can learn so quick.
Anyhow, I want to go a little further into this.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on September 01, 2008, 07:38:39 PM
I understand this subject to be perhaps both meat and hard bones, tuff meat, needing marinating by the Holy Spirit, or it may insult your spiritual intelligence. But just talk with God about it, he means well for us. Hes not trying to trip us up. God will work on your subconscious way before he gives you his Spirit.
Garbage is more like it! pickled in lie! I did no rightousnesses. I was nothing but a poor lost sinner, literally, a wicked man with a great big need! and then and there He gave me a vision of Jesus on the cross and put His own Ghost in me! Through all my wanderings and stumblings, He has never forsaken me, just as He promised!
Quote from: Mickiel on September 01, 2008, 07:38:39 PM
Again use Jesus as the example of this. For 30 years, the very Son of God lived on this earth without the Spirit comming upon him. And He was Conceived by it! But he was being prepared all those years. In Matt. 3:16 he was finally baptised and the Spirit " Came upon him."
Now here we have Jesus, born of the Spirit, lived 30 years and NEVER claimed that he had the Spirit of God. This example is totally useless to the presentday Sons of God, because they refuse to believe that they can be conscious of God, led by God, prepared by God, but the Spirit not yet has come upon them.
"Unto you is BORN this day in the city of David a savior, who is Christ the Lord." (Lk 2:11) Now this was spoken by an angel. Did he get his facts straight? Born Christ, Messiah, The Annointing, and born the
Kurios, Lord, Supreme and Ultimate Authority! This is the Holy Spirit made flesh. He could not be without the Spirit of God.
He said it would only be a little while and He would come to us as Spirit and be in us and we in Him. This commenced on the day of Pentecost and continues from thence til now. Just as Jesus promised to not leave us fatherless, so He is always with the Father, "I am in my Father." (Jn 14:20)
John 14:15-20,26...
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth (lit, is remaining) with you, and
shall be in you.
18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet
a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that
I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is
the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send
in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Quote from: Mickiel on September 02, 2008, 02:04:53 AM
Jesus is the Firstborn of many bretheren, and he lived in the flesh, 30 years, without having Gods Spirit come upon him, which means most of his earthly life. So you think that your life is going to be different than his? You think your going to have Gods Spirit most of your Life, Jesus didn't, and he IS the Standard set. Jesus life IS the example of how God gives his Spirit
and we can learn from what God did to him. God does not change in his manner of dealing with his Sons. There are NO examples in the bible of any human having Gods Spirit for a long extended amount of time, with the only possible exceptions of Noah or Job, and I am not even 100% convinced about them. But I think Job had to have it. Because he was perfect in all his ways.
Jesus firsts 30 years on earth were developmental years, training and learning, and Living WITHOUT the annointing he received at his Baptism. And I believe this is exactly what God is doing, has done, to those who he is interested in choosing now. The Calling of God, is without the Holy Spirit, it has not come " Upon You", although your learning may be conceived by it, your consciousness pricked by it some time ago, as Jesus was conceived by it.
Now I have said many times, that those called, do receive " Vistations" from the Spirit, it will deal with them, but it comes and goes, this is how the Spirit does me, it does not stay. Notice this principle in John 1:33; and look close. Many of you faulter by looking at Gods word, but not looking closer at it, deeper into it. Speaking of Jesus;" He upon whom you see the Spirit descending AND " Remaining" upon him. Notice how John said this. The Spirit comming, AND Remaining! That is very important in understanding how God uses his Spirit. Because more than often, God sends the Spirit upon people, but it does not remain upon them. And this is why there is no church of God on earth now, because the Spirit is visting, but not remaining, and the people are not conscious of this. So God is teaching their subconsciousness, more than he is their conscious minds. When God opens a person to new truth, its not really new, its already within their subconscious mind, God just opens it up to their consciousness, and thats how we really learn, and can learn so quick.
Anyhow, I want to go a little further into this.
Peace.
1 John 2:22-23
22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Jesus is the Annointing. He was The Annointed from everlasting and will be without end, born Christ, the Annointed, the Messiah.
1 John 2:24-26...
24 Let that therefore
abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning.
If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
What remains in us that we heard from the beginning? Jesus as Spirit!
1 John 1:1-2...
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us...)
1 John 2:27-28...
27 But
the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now,
little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
The annointing obtained from Jesus remains IN us! There are times of increased manifestation for special works; but,
HE NEVER LEAVES NOR FORSAKES US, JUST AS HE PROMISED, coming to us as Spirit to make His permanent abode with us. We are His Temple that He has desired, yes, lusted after having as the permanent place of His rest.
1 John 4:15...
15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. Sound simple! keep confessing Jesus is the Son of God. It is then not hundreds or thousand of years spent comfortless and without The Spirit. It is then God remains in us and we remain in God!
1 John 4:16...
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.Just as abide means to remain, so here to dwell means remain.
Who remains in love remains in God and God is remaining in him.
I think the most serious error that believers have made is a raw misinterpitation of themselves having Gods Spirit within them on a perminent basics. Again in Acts 1:5;" You shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit." And notice vs.8, " You shall receive Power, WHEN the Holy Spirit has " COME UPON YOU!" Heres where we get into trouble, because of our pride and lust for Spiritual Power. There IS a stark difference in being baptised by the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit " Comming upon you." And there are levels of Spiritual baptism, they are NOT all of just one thing!
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Greek definitions from Stong's Complete Word Study Concordance (AMG)
What part of "abide," "remain," "stay," (lit., down-Home,) "be making our permanent home" don't you understand?
Greek: S# 3306 men -o; a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy.)
STAY IN ME AND I IN YOU
John 15:1-12...
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
STAY WITH YOU
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If any man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
abode here is S# 3438 mon-ay; derived from S# 3306; a staying, i.e. residence (the act or the place.)
What? Don't you know you are a temple of the Holy Ghost? Or does he just rent the temple from time to time? There is another passage where Jesus says that "now, the Spirit is with you . .but soon will be "in" you . . ." Was that also to be just a temporary visitation?
Quote from: Nathan on September 04, 2008, 10:45:48 PM
What? Don't you know you are a temple of the Holy Ghost? Or does he just rent the temple from time to time? There is another passage where Jesus says that "now, the Spirit is with you . .but soon will be "in" you . . ." Was that also to be just a temporary visitation?
Well its not an easy thing to comprehend, espically when a mind has already tipped the scales of belief, by its own desires for things to be so, or things to be like they want them to be. Just as it is hard for some to understand that all will be saved, its just as hard to understand that all do not have the Holy Spirit. In Matt. 13:14, Jesus reflects on this, people will hear, or perceive Gods word somewhat, but just not quite understand the real truth it presents. They will keep on seeing it, or hold a working knowledge of it, but willnot " Perceive it", or it willnot penertrate into a deep Spirit installed conception. Just common knowledge.
In verse 19 Jesus teachs that people will hear about Gods Kingdom, but just not understand it, which is why we have the belief becomming popular that the Kingdom is now within certain humans. The evil one has planted this deception and distorted the seed planted. These are the ones on whom the seed was sown beside the road.
Notice those in vs.20-21, again remember that this is Jesus teaching; some people have had the seed sown on rocky places, unstable learning, but still receive it with Joy immediately. Yet Christ teachs that they have no firm " Root in themselves", meaning the Spirit is not within them perminently, Jesus even uses the term " Temporary", or Temporary Seed", and these people can fall away when things get tuff.
These are things that Jesus taught, and I post heavily on the words and teachings of Jesus, one can only read my post to see if that be true. Now I don't expect people to believe Jesus, not when themselves are of more importance to their minds. Self view, self desire, self interpitation is far stronger than the words of Jesus to a mind not penertrated by Jesus truths.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
There are many people who teach that the Spirit is within and the Kingdom is within, again Jesus taught in Mark 7:14-23, that its not the things without, or the teachings of things being without, that defile, but Jesus taught that its the " Things which proceed from WITHIN", thats what truly defiles a person.
Don't you understand that this includes teachings about things from within? People telling you the Spirit is " Within", the Kingdom is " Within", all these proceed from the concept of within and defile the man. Its a tradgic perfect deception, and it will cause a great falling away. People are going to be hurt over this, their broken pride will make them fall away. Because their not properly rooted, that Spirit they covet is not really established in there.
And I want to touch on that some.
Peace.
Listen, the truth is a conscious awareness that is not based on that awareness. A person can be shown the truth, and they actually see it, but are just not able to be aware of it, OR, just refuse to be aware of it, just not wanting to accept it as being true. Again Jesus and Isaiah in Matt. 13:15;" For the hearts of the people have become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes lest they should see with their eyes."
They have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes. They are aware of what could be true, but just do not want it to be true. This is an " Aittitude", a way of impulsively surpressing the truth from your consciousness. People approach the truth of Universal Salvation like this, they do not want to see it. People approach the kingdom being within and having Gods Spirit with this same aittitude, they do not want to see that they could be wrong about things. So they lend their ears to the message that " Sounds Good" to them, that is more instantly gradifying and prophesize good things to them.
They close their eyes lest they should see.
Peace.
[quote author=Mickiel There IS a stark difference in being baptised by the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit " Comming upon you." And there are levels of Spiritual baptism, they are NOT all of just one thing!
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
[/quote]
In John 20:22;" Jesus breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." There are several ways of being exposed to the Holy Spirit, this manner, Jesus " Breathing on you", is perhaps the most powerful, next to God breathing on you himself. I had mentioned earlier that God, and Christ, are types of Dragons, or fire breathing beings. But their fire that they breathe, is a Spirit Fire, and it is a great awesome Fire. It has great power!
When Jesus breathed on the disciples, he was baptizing them in the Spirit Fire! He breathed his Fire on them, and the Fire burned their sins away, and he immediately told them to forgive the sins of any. Now this is the most powerful form of Spiritual baptism, the great dragon breathing on you, the Great Angel breathing on you directly.
Now John 20:22, is baptisum by direct breathing, but look at Acts 1:5. Jesus had already breathed on them in John 20, after he was ressurected, but here its 40 days later, and he tells them they shall be baptised " With the Holy Spirit", and in vs.8 tells them they shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has " Come Upon you." This is different than Jesus breathing on you, this is the Holy Spirit being WITH you! Or comming to vist you with a purpose of giving you something powerful!
And I want to go further into that.
Peace.
In order to be Spiritually functional, the Spirit must provide. There are no exceptions to this. We make grave errors in understanding, when we think or assume, or desire it to be, that we ourselves are Spiritually functional in this life right now! WE have all kinds of baggage that we carry, and we think that we are examples of a Spirit being of perfection, because we hide or cover our baggage, as if it is not there, or is somehow excluded from our example.
Where in Jesus life, did Gods Spirit need to cover his Baggage? The Spirit was with him in power, and he didnot sin. What makes you think God willnot do that to anyonelse, he did it to Job. When God wants you to be devoid of sin, you will be. If you are not, then HE does NOT want you to be. He wants you to be forgiven, but NOT perfected, because he knows how to perfect you.
You can hide your baggage and claim forgiveness in Christ, but its there nonetheless. It wasNOT there in Jesus and Job. And when God places you into that sacred area, it willnot be in you.
And THATS when you will be born again!
And I want to go into Jesus teachings on that.
Peace.
Many christians feel like receiving a new way of thinking, is a new consciousness, which I disagree with. They then feel like the New Birth, is receiving a new nature, and they think that is a new consciousness. And thus they see it as what occurs when one is born again. I don't view the New Birth like that. I believe the New Birth, is receiving a whole new, whole different consciousness, one which you didnot have before. That is a new birth to me.
I cannot see being born again, yet still having so many old ways yet within you. Having the same consciousness, but just with new goals, new committments, and new beliefs, but having the same consciousness you have had since birth. In this senerio, the consciousness has not died, it has only been renewed, which is NOT a new birth!
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The more I study and understand Consciousness, the more I believe many people just have the wrong views about being Born Again. The past and present consciousness of humanity has been, and still is sinful. There is absolutely no doubt about that. In order to be Born Again, I believe a total transformation of the Consciousness must have occured. And THAT is more important than a change of the body of a human. But we tend to place the body transformation as the imputus of that change, it is not. The Mind, or the Consciousness, IS the imputus of change, it is the center of the New Birth experience.
So what does " Let this mind be in you that is in Christ Jesus really mean?" Does it mean a human can have the mind of Christ? Can we right now, have the Mind of Christ, DURING our lives in the Flesh? Is it even possible for a converted human to think like Christ?
I want to walk through the word on that. The real Word.
Peace.
We become more sidetracked by our hopes, than what the bible is really teaching. In Philippians 2:5, in example; We think this verse means " Let this Mind be in you, that was also in Christ." How are you going to have someonelses mind? Muchless the Great Christ Mind. So we walk around believing that we can have Christ Mind. The verse is more properly rendered;" Let this " Aittitude" be in you that was in Christ Jesus, now that is within reach. If you are going to be realistic with the bible and yourself. Jesus exist in the Form of God, but NEVER equated himself to having his Fathers Mind, vs. 6. If we are to have the actual Mind of Christ, then you must equate yourself with Christ, something the bible does NOT teach! But many look at the bible out of selfish conceit, not out of real humility. And layers upon layers of interpitation has been drawn from this selfish conceit. As is the current views of being Born Again.
1Corinth.2:16," For who has Known the Mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the Mind of Christ." We have the Mind of Christ to instruct us, we have his teachings. And we can share in his Aittitudes. John 15:15, " For all things I have heard from my Father I have made Known to you." This is what we have, his teachings, the things in his Mind that he has shared, or we have the Mind of Christ to teach us. Yet we feel this Mind itself is in us. Thats a very big gulp to swallow. And thats why we choke on the Word.
We walk through the bible in the Vanity of our own Minds, this is how our Consciousness is seared. Eph. 4:17, latter part of verse;"People Walk in the Futility of their own Minds." This is a " Pothole in the Human Consciousness", a place we all have stumbled into. The present conversion that exist on earth is a " Renewed Mind", or a fresh Consciousness, NOT a totally new one. Eph.4:23;" And that you be renewed in the Spirit of YOUR Mind." You still have YOUR Mind. The Old self that is layed aside, is the old way of THINKING, the New SELF, is STILL yourself! You just have new goals, new direction, new intentions, but you STILL hold the SAME MIND! And this is a HUGHE handicap, or burden to place on yourself, thinking you are now walking around with the actual Mind of Christ! No, it COULD be " THE LIKENESS " of Christ, or his Aittitude. We need to lay aside this hughe falsehood and quit fooling ourselves and this world, and speak, live and believe IN TRUTH! We need to be clothed in our right Minds, not someonelses. You are what you are. Human, flesh, reeled by a carnal nature.
Notice Phil. 3:20-21. Our citizenship is IN Heaven, its not here now. We wait for a Savior who will TRANSFORM our state of BEING into Conformity with himself( That is the New Birth, and we must wait for it).
Anyhow, I want to go through the Bible and show what the Mind of Christ really Means.
Peace.
When the bible speaks about " Being of one Mind", the writers meant being in harmony.1Pet. 3:8, to be harmonious, or to have the same aittitude, not all having the same exact mind in your brains. Harmony is agreeing in feeling or actions. Its agreement, not brain transfusion. Let this Mind be in you that was in Christ, means agreement with him, not having his brain transfused into your head.
But we got people walking around here believing that Christ actual mind is in their head. And that is why they teach such bewildering doctrines.
Having the Mind of Christ, or the Aittitude of Christ, is holding a mentality that forms a pleasing consistant whole. This is why I walk alone, because I do not agree with the whole of Christianity, including the Universalist camps. I will not walk with those I disagree with, and I hold some heavy disagreements. So I don't have the aittitude of Christ, I am not trying to please people, I see far too much that is inconsistant with the real truth. Far too much " Double Mindedness".
I do not accept the teachings that claim we have the actual mind of Christ, and these same people insult their own teachings every time they sin. Because when they sin, their mind of Christ sins. Oh but they won't admit that. James 1:8," A double minded man is unstable in ALL his ways." Everyone who teachs that we have the mind of Christ, is doubleminded, they think they have their mind, and Christ Mind, which is unstable in ALL their thinking. It throws everything off, and they are complettely blind to this deception.
And I want to go into what this has done to the Spiritual consciousness of believing humanity.
Peace.
Having the Mind or Aittitude of Christ, means to live by his every standard that he taught. Jesus lived by every standard that his Father taught him, by every Word that came out of Gods mouth. Phil.3:16;" Lets us keep living by that same standard to which we have received." Having Jesus aittitude, is to have established in your mind all the general teachings of Jesus as your criteria for belief.
I often tell others that I don't care what they think about me or my beliefs, I don't worry about that. Again Jesus in Luke 12:29;" And do not seek what you shall eat, and what you shall drink, and do not keep worrying." Do you know what Worry is? Its to bother yourself with the cares of this world. Things you think you need to care about, but all the care really does is pester you, but you think your being spiritual , by being pestered.
This is why I do not allow certain people to pester me about my beliefs. I am seeking the Kingdom of God, but they feel have already obtained it, yet they pester me. Well I have not obtained it, and I am not going to worry about how others view this. The very hairs of our heads are numbered, our salvation is secure.
But let me get into the Consciousness of Christ.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel
But let me get into the Consciousness of Christ.
Peace.
/quote]
I think Jesus life is essentially proof that Consciousness is not soley produced by the brain. Really Consciousness, is a dialouge within. Jesus was placed into a humans womb, and all while he was a human being growing up, until God opened his consciousness, he didnot know who he was. So God controls the consciousness, and he created Christ consciousness, as he did us all. Well excuse me, actually God created the Christ consciousness, and then Christ created ours. So consciousness was created and is controlled by God.
So much about God is a mystery, and thats why consciousness itself is a mystery. Even Jesus was kept spiritually unconscious for a time, just as humanity is being kept spiritually unconscious for a time.
When Jesus became conscious of who he was, and that timeframe can be debated, anywhere from age 12 to 30, it was not brain activity that ignited it, it was God. The orgin of the Consciousness of Christ, is God. John 5:26;" For just as the Father has life in himself,( or consciousness), even so he GAVE to the Son also to have Life in himself,( Or Consciousness). Again Jesus in John 6:57;" I Live because of the Father", or this is his orgin of life, he came to be because of God.
Now, so Christ consciousness was created and molded by the Father God. John 8:42, again Jesus;" I proceeded forth and came from God." Again really this is the orgin of both Christ, AND human consciousness!
And I want to get into that.
Peace.
The Consciousness of Christ is really the orgin of human Consciousness. Once the Father decided to give birth to humanity in the future, he wanted to bring humans into the world of reality in matter first. He wanted their consciousness to be placed in flesh first. An incubator of sorts, to groom and manipulate the consciousness first. Like placing a seed into soil, eventually the seed will become greater than the soil.
And this is what Christ Life types, it is an example of what humanity is charged with in comming into existance.
But each one of us are a product of Christ Mind, his Consciousness. Every single human being are individually a componant of Jesus creative Consciousness.
And I want to touch on that.
Peace.
[quote author=Mickiel
But each one of us are a product of Christ Mind, his Consciousness. Every single human being are individually a componant of Jesus creative Consciousness.
And I want to touch on that.
Peace.
[/quote]
In Christ we live and move and have our being. He is the consciousness of human reality. To live in him, and move by him, or have our being, means he is our consciousness. Listen, when your the imputus of a persons consciousness, your controlling them.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The very reason God knows us, is because he IS, and is our consciousness. He is the core of consciousness, both inner and outer. God is the heartbeat of the human mind. In your meditation, you need to consider the whole of Jesus and the Father, being our All in All. That IS our Consciousness. Our Salvation is NOT based on our Consciousness, nor our knowledge.
Many Spiritual minded people think their Salvation is based on their awareness, they are thrilled at their knowledge. They magnify themselves, based on themselves, and their awareness. Thinking God is bound in his movements on them, based on their awareness. As if God only deals with humans, based on their consciousness. I have already stated that God can deal with the unconscious mind, just as, or exactly like he deals with a conscious mind.
Now, let me show you something important. This unbelievable fact, is WHY Salvation is Universal, because Consciousness is universal, eternal, and Gods natural radar. Its Gods way of monitoring things, and all things.
And I want to continue on that.
Peace.
[quote author=Mickiel
Now, let me show you something important. This unbelievable fact, is WHY Salvation is Universal, because Consciousness is universal, eternal, and Gods natural radar. Its Gods way of monitoring things, and all things.
And I want to continue on that.
Peace.
[/quote]
Consciousness is Gods ways and means of monitoring all things. The consciousness of ALL beings, comes from God, is an actual part of either he himself, or his power deployed into the " Outer", or " Protozoan reality." Things either connected to him directly or indirectly. I personally am aware of things that happen to my body, most things. Consciousness is Gods, its his. Through it he keeps track of all things. He is aware, because awareness is his, consciousness is his. Its his radar, his light within all of his created or birthed beings.
As consciousness spreads, Gods influence grows. As it multiplys, so does Gods influence. Like a gene multiplying, Gods will engulfs all things.
Peace.
It is by Gods Consciousness that all things are, and behave as they do, he has absolute control. The Life is his, the endurance is his, the past is his, the present and the future is his. The understanding is his, thus all potential is his. Job 39:26;" Is it by your understanding that the Hawk Soars?"
Get further into this scripture, see the true light revelation concerning the Great Gods Consciousness.
It is by Gods UNDERSTANDING that even the animals have their being. Their ability, their ways and means, even their flight patterns. It is the same with humans, there is NO difference to God, we have our ability, our behavior patterns, EVERYTHING about our total being, total consciousness, is according to GODS Understanding, not our own! 41:11;" Whatever is under the WHOLE HEAVEN IS MINE!"
People get a little knowledge from others and start thinking they are producing knowledge themselves, that they free will themselves understanding. The true way of God is NOT according to your understanding, its ALL Gods understanding, its his, and his alone.
And like he did Job, when he has to tell you, show you, that its not about you, your going to find out what humility is really all about!
Many people feel that they are called, they are Hideing counsel without knowledge, 42:3.
And I want to explain what that means, to hide counsel without knowledge.
Peace.
[quote author=Mickiel
Many people feel that they are called, they are Hideing counsel without knowledge, 42:3.
And I want to explain what that means, to hide counsel without knowledge.
Peace.
[/quote]
To hide counsel without knowledge simply means that you really don't know what your talking about. You think you know, thus you spread darkness instead of light. And this has nothing to do with motive, most have good intentions behind their counsel. One of the worst things a counselor could do, is to mislead. Such as Job 34:35, Elihu accuses Job of speaking without knowledge, claiming his words were without wisdom. Yet God claims in Job 42:7, that it was Eliphaz and his two friends who spoke with Job, that they didnot speak what is right. Elihu claimed to be Gods spokesman in chapter 33 and he gave a very long monolouge, railing against Job. He gave counsel without knowledge. Oh he said some good sounding stuff, but he charged Job with rebellion against Gods sovereign justice. I can't count the times I have been personally charged with the same by people who think they speak for God, giving me counsel without knowledge. And yet it is they who really spread darkness. Because they are not spiritually conscious of what they are doing.
It is by Gods understanding that the bible and even dreams are then understood. Even Daniel knew this in 8:15. He was given a vision, but he had to seek the understanding of the vision, he didNOT take unto himself the knowledge of instantly understanding it. Gabriel had to give it to him, vs. 16.
One of the greatest areas of people distorting counsel without knowledge, is the area of being born again and having Gods Spirit. Its premature birthrights being now established through the personal greed of many. And it has resulted in a very low understanding of Gods Spirit and being Born again. But its a high charged belief, very popular and very without the true knowledge of God. Many people will declare to Christ when he returns that they are Born again, and Jesus will just straight forward tell them that he NEVER led them to that conclusion. Because he never did sanction it himself at that time.
Assumming that you have Gods blessing on something is a very dangerous assumption to make. Why is it that Jesus states that not everyone who says to him," Lord, Lord", will enter into his Kingdom? Well simply , and ONLY because, they are NOT yet born again. Thats what Jesus meant, thats what he sees, its what actually holds people back.
It seems the more I understand that I do not have Gods Spirit, and am not born again, the more God just literally Pours knowledge into me. It surprises me all the time. This most unworthy mind that I have, this useless life I hold. But yet, the counsel of God will be poured into ANY vessell he so chooses, even if the vessell does not understand WHY he is doing it. But that constant strand of humility is KEPT constantly within. To keep yourself and ego from human swelling.
It thus deflates your counsicousness. And I want to go into Gods active deflation of the human consciousness.
Peace.
[quote
It thus deflates your counsicousness. And I want to go into Gods active deflation of the human consciousness.
Peace.
[/quote]
God designed the human conscious, so he knows how it works. How to use it to either guide you, or convict you, either one, either way. Notice John 8:1-11, the well known story of the scribes and pharisees accusing a woman taken in adultery. They were testing Jesus, they thought they controlled the situation. Jesus simply, calmly, wrote on the ground, and I tend to think he wrote, the same thing he spoke;" He who is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." They begin to go away, one by one, beginning with the older people there. The older ones knew they couldnot cast a stone.
But notice, they all were convicted by their OWN Consciousness. This is really the Power of the Holy Spirit at work in humans. When you see a bunch of humans , swayed by their own consciousness, and submitting to what is right, you are actively seeing the Holy Spirit at work in carnal humanity! THIS is how God will submit all of carnal humanity to him, through their OWN Consciousness, which he already controls. And when I say control, I mean he is God over them, he IS the Ruler.
Now, when God wants to humble a human, he simply convicts their consciousness, which is their heart.
Now conversely, we can deceive ourselves through our own consciousness, as well as be targeted by demons in your conscious. Notice 1Tim. 4:2;" By means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscious as with a branding iron." Your own conscious can convince you of something so much, that it is seared, or permenently burned into your belief. You believe your born again, you believe you have Gods Spirit, you believe you are speaking in tounges, you believe the Kingdom of God is within you, and these things are SEARED within you, and willnot turn back. Its just a done deal, a well cooked belief.
But now all God has to do is deal with your consciousness, and he can reverse ANY deception that has a hold on you, and he will release you. Free you, from things that bind you, that you didn't even know was a bind. Thats what free indeed really means, its the freedom of God, not your self professed freedom.
But let me go further into Gods deflation of the human ego. The human ego, that great monster inside of us all.
Peace.
Why blow up a balloon only to deflate it later? Well because the infation had a reason, and that is exactly what God is doing to humanity, has done to humanity. Inflation, then deflation, that is the pattern that I see. Fill up their lives with a lot of hot air, then remove that air, and replace it with a real substance of far greater value. Strange approach, but its what God has actively done, and is actively doing. Consciousness is why he has done this. God is building, from nothing. Each one of us were non-existant for all the time that we were, now we exist. While we were non existant, we were not a part of reality, but we were a part of Gods consciousness. God was thinking on us for however long he did, and I think he thought on each human individually, far before he brought them into consciousness.
Consciousness was our beginning, but a limited consciousness, that was designed to grow in time. To grow to a point that it will be deflated.
And I want to touch on that.
Peace.