Alright, so I've been looking over these verses, and my OCD can't help but kick in. (I've some OCD. It's not major, or crazy, but enough to be obnoxious.) Basically, my OCD decides to try and find the worst scenario in all situations, and reading the Bible is no exception. So, if you guys could help me out here, with these verses, that'd be great.
Chapter 15
1 Now I am making known to you, brethren, the evangel which I bring to you, which also you accepted, in which also you stand,
2 through which also you are saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly.
3 For I give over to you among the first what also I accepted, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
4 and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, thereupon by the twelve.
6 Thereupon He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the majority are remaining hitherto, yet some were put to repose also.
7 Thereupon He was seen by James, thereafter by all the apostles.
8 Yet, last of all, even as if a premature birth, He was seen by me also.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not competent to be called an apostle, because I persecute the ecclesia of God.
10 Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I -- yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
11 Then, whether I or they, thus we are heralding and thus you believe.
12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith -- you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.
20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
[So, here, basically, what my OCD has been doing to me, is this: "Those that are reposing are not truly the same as ALL men that die, but simply those 'Christians' that have fallen asleep/reposed." If that were true, my OCD follows through with: "then Christ is only the first fruit of 'Christians'." Help! I need some real logic given to me, here! (As opposed to my lame OCD logic.)]
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
[Here, I have trouble with this: does the "consummation" include all of the unsaved, at this point? I mean, Paul didn't exactly say "thereafter the unsaved." How can it be clarified that Paul was talking about the unbelievers here? Or, what more can be understood from 24-28, or whatever verses, that could better understand this passage?]
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Thanks guys!
I'll let others respond to the specific requests. I did remember this post from reFormer though, and thought I'd add it into the mix as needing to be considered in a big view of things;
"The Bible says the lake of fire is "the second death" and that Jesus will abolish all death (1 Cointhians 15:26, see vs.22 through 28.) It is also written, not only that there shall be no more death, but that, "Neither shall there be any more pain." (Revelation 21:4, AV) Whatever pain was for will have been done. God also tells us that it already has been done. (Rv 21:6) There is a realm now in which pain, death, and mourning already are not. It is "in Christ!" "
James
QuoteFor He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
Jesus is gonna be king.
95% are heretics that don't follow Jesus.
So He only subjects 5% under His feet.
So basicly the King of kings is king over 5% of creation.
The other guy, king of the air submits the other 95%.
Sounds someone stole the glory of Jesus.
Also read my signature...
Ah, 1 Corinthians 15, one of my most oft-cited chapters when debating against those preaching eternal torment, in fact.
Well, in response to your concerns, I could point out that verse 22 says in no uncertain terms that "in Christ, (all shall) be vivified" - that's "in Christ, all", not the many times misquoted "all in Christ". Or, I could point out that verse 28 says that God will "be all in all", something that would be utterly impossible if the vast majority of humanity will be permanently estranged from God.
I think all of your worries may be put to rest, however, simply through giving one of these verses its proper attention - the 26th. One of typical verses used to scare people into belief is Romans 6:23 -
"For the wages of sin is death"
But look at what we are told in 1 Corinthians 15:26 -
"The last enemy is being abolished: death."
There's a very important thing to note here about the word here translated into "abolished" (Greek katargeo - "to abolish; to annul; to do away with"). When slavery was abolished, did this only mean that no more people were enslaved? Of course not - it also meant that all those who had suffered from slavery were released from their bonds. And the exact same thing is true here: if death is abolished, then not only do no more people die, but also all those who were previously affected by death are affected no longer.
The wages of sin is death - but death will be abolished... and that's a promise. :nod:
Quote from: Gab on September 17, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
Ah, 1 Corinthians 15, one of my most oft-cited chapters when debating against those preaching eternal torment, in fact.
Well, in response to your concerns, I could point out that verse 22 says in no uncertain terms that "in Christ, (all shall) be vivified" - that's "in Christ, all", not the many times misquoted "all in Christ". Or, I could point out that verse 28 says that God will "be all in all", something that would be utterly impossible if the vast majority of humanity will be permanently estranged from God.
I think all of your worries may be put to rest, however, simply through giving one of these verses its proper attention - the 26th. One of typical verses used to scare people into belief is Romans 6:23 -
"For the wages of sin is death"
But look at what we are told in 1 Corinthians 15:26 -
"The last enemy is being abolished: death."
There's a very important thing to note here about the word here translated into "abolished" (Greek katargeo - "to abolish; to annul; to do away with"). When slavery was abolished, did this only mean that no more people were enslaved? Of course not - it also meant that all those who had suffered from slavery were released from their bonds. And the exact same thing is true here: if death is abolished, then not only do no more people die, but also all those who were previously affected by death are affected no longer.
The wages of sin is death - but death will be abolished... and that's a promise. :nod:
Thanks Jabcat and WW, and Gab!
I especially like this point you made, in the bold!
I agree Tim.
The bold part about slavery is good because I did concider excatly this:
QuoteWhen slavery was abolished, did this only mean that no more people were enslaved?
Instead of slavery death=LoF
Quote from: Gab on September 17, 2009, 10:16:57 AM
Ah, 1 Corinthians 15, one of my most oft-cited chapters when debating against those preaching eternal torment, in fact.
Well, in response to your concerns, I could point out that verse 22 says in no uncertain terms that "in Christ, (all shall) be vivified" - that's "in Christ, all", not the many times misquoted "all in Christ". Or, I could point out that verse 28 says that God will "be all in all", something that would be utterly impossible if the vast majority of humanity will be permanently estranged from God.
I think all of your worries may be put to rest, however, simply through giving one of these verses its proper attention - the 26th. One of typical verses used to scare people into belief is Romans 6:23 -
"For the wages of sin is death"
But look at what we are told in 1 Corinthians 15:26 -
"The last enemy is being abolished: death."
There's a very important thing to note here about the word here translated into "abolished" (Greek katargeo - "to abolish; to annul; to do away with"). When slavery was abolished, did this only mean that no more people were enslaved? Of course not - it also meant that all those who had suffered from slavery were released from their bonds. And the exact same thing is true here: if death is abolished, then not only do no more people die, but also all those who were previously affected by death are affected no longer.
The wages of sin is death - but death will be abolished... and that's a promise. :nod:
In agreement. Amen Gab
Grace and peace,
Brandon
Quote from: Tim B on September 17, 2009, 04:58:10 AM
20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
[So, here, basically, what my OCD has been doing to me, is this: "Those that are reposing are not truly the same as ALL men that die, but simply those 'Christians' that have fallen asleep/reposed." If that were true, my OCD follows through with: "then Christ is only the first fruit of 'Christians'." Help! I need some real logic given to me, here! (As opposed to my lame OCD logic.)]
Why do you think Jesus is called first fruits? Why an agricultural 'title'?
I see it this way.
Jesus is indeed the first fruit of only those that are awake. The so called elect. Sofar your OCD is correct.
But that is half the truth.
First fruits is the first harvest of the year. A small harvest.
But when there is first there must be also a second etc.
And yes, later in the year there are much larger harvests.
Today most of us think food grows in a jar... :winkgrin:
But in Jesus' time almost all had (some) agricultural background. That's why the Bible is full of wheat, harvests, sheep etc.
I think that for the ones that where there at that time it was very clear that if some souls are harvested in spring that many more are harvested in fall. Jesus used parables to explain complex things in simple ways. Then it would be very illogical if He uses farming terminology but does
not follow farming guidlines that 95% of His audience probably had in mind.
Personally I'm convinced that a (shallow) study of the ancient Jewish society makes it easier to understand the larger outlines of the Bible. I see two major themes. Farming/harvesting and (preperation of) marriage.
(http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:4oOqlt-JnMQKWM::fooddemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wheat.jpg&h=78&w=51&usg=__GKVuAzaxeQQO2zkJFykreTyjYBo=) =======> (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NIkn0YdZ3GBJYM:http://www.sheepdrove.com/siteManager/sites/sheepdrove/userFiles/Image/animals-farm/organic-wheat-500x375.jpg)
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 12:44:39 AM
Why do you think Jesus is called first fruits? Why an agricultural 'title'?
I see it this way.
Jesus is indeed the first fruit of only those that are awake. The so called elect. Sofar your OCD is correct.
But it's half the truth.
First fruits is the first harvest of the year. A small harvest.
But when there is first there must be also a second etc.
And yes later in the year there are much larger harvests.
Today most of us think food grows in jar... :winkgrin:
But in Jesus' time alsmost all had (some) agricultural background. That's why the Bible is full of wheat, harvests, sheep etc.
I think that for the ones that where there at that time it was very clear that if some souls are harvested in spring that many more are harvested in fall. Jesus used parables to explain complex things in simple ways. Then it would be very illogical if He uses farming terminology but does follow farming guidlines that 95% of His audience probably had in mind.
Personally I'm convinced that a (shallow) study of the ancient Jewish society makes it easier to understand the larger outlines of the Bible. I see two major themes. Farming/harvesting and (preperation of) marriage.
(http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:4oOqlt-JnMQKWM::fooddemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wheat.jpg&h=78&w=51&usg=__GKVuAzaxeQQO2zkJFykreTyjYBo=) =======> (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NIkn0YdZ3GBJYM:http://www.sheepdrove.com/siteManager/sites/sheepdrove/userFiles/Image/animals-farm/organic-wheat-500x375.jpg)
Very interesting. To be honest I'd never actually even thought that strongly about what it meant for Christ to be the firstfruits of those who had fallen asleep, but that explanation makes perfect sense. I never cease to be surprised at how, just when you think you completely understand a passage, God shows how there's even more to be found therein... :smile:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 12:44:39 AM
Personally I'm convinced that a (shallow) study of the ancient Jewish society makes it easier to understand the larger outlines of the Bible. I see two major themes. Farming/harvesting and (preperation of) marriage.
:cloud9: Me too, WW.....and I agree, I see the same. Blessings....
:thumbsup: good job WW !
KVJ Jhn 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
wearing/made White does have to do with the union / marriage :thumbsup:
NASB 34Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
35"Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.
36"Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
37"For in this case the saying is true, 'One sows and another reaps.'
38"I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor."
This labour is LOVE :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 03:19:42 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 12:44:39 AM
Personally I'm convinced that a (shallow) study of the ancient Jewish society makes it easier to understand the larger outlines of the Bible. I see two major themes. Farming/harvesting and (preperation of) marriage.
:cloud9: Me too, WW.....and I agree, I see the same. Blessings....
Me too..
Our heavenly Father is a farmer whose Son is betrothed to us in marriage. Ok, so I'm a literalist lol.
I once heard a messianic Jew describe the marriage customs of the day, and it made perfect sense of many of the things Jesus had to say. The father picks out the bride. Then the bride and groom meet and, if they approve of each other, they seal the deal by a ceremony sharing wine and bread. They are essentially betrothed at that point and it is very hard, if not impossible, for either to back out of the deal. Then the groom goes back to his father's house and builds on an addition that will be living quarters for the new couple. The bride stays behind in her family home waiting for him to come for her. She keeps her dress prepared, even by her bedside, so that she can be ready in a moment's notice. Her bridesmaids sleep in the same room with her to be ready also.
Then, usually in the middle of the night, the groom will arrive with his best man and entourage, singing and celebrating, to take the bride to her new home. There will be a marriage feast for all the guests while the bride and groom consummate the marriage [which has already taken place at wine ceremony months before] behind the closed doors of the new bridal chamber.
I noticed you were aware of this, ww. You amaze me with how quickly you learn things.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hmm, Concordant.org has this to say about those that are reposing:
QuoteThe theme which is in view throughout this entire section, to which Paul makes the extended reply of verses 20-28, is that of the universal forlornness of all mankind if there is no resurrection of the dead (cp vs.12,19). Further, it is in the context not merely of believers, but of all mankind (v.19), in which Paul declares that Christ is the Firstfruit of those who are reposing (v.21). "Repose" is the figure of euphemism by which, in gentleness, we make mention of the dead who are lying in their graves. Those who died in unbelief are lying in their graves quite as much as those who died in faith. Hence it is vain to claim that "the reposing" are confined to dead believers. Clearly, the expression comprises all the dead, not merely those of a certain class.
Honestly, this seems to make a lot of sense, I think.
Also, this verse is interesting:
James 1:17-18 (Young's Literal Translation)
17every good giving, and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the lights, with whom is no variation, or shadow of turning;
18having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.
It seems to indicate that all of those in Christ are also the First Fruit. Thus, if believers are ALSO the First Fruit, then it seems that those that are reposing MUST be ALL the dead (believers and non-believers).
Quote from: Tim B on September 18, 2009, 04:26:30 AM
Hmm, Concordant.org has this to say about those that are reposing:
QuoteThe theme which is in view throughout this entire section, to which Paul makes the extended reply of verses 20-28, is that of the universal forlornness of all mankind if there is no resurrection of the dead (cp vs.12,19). Further, it is in the context not merely of believers, but of all mankind (v.19), in which Paul declares that Christ is the Firstfruit of those who are reposing (v.21). "Repose" is the figure of euphemism by which, in gentleness, we make mention of the dead who are lying in their graves. Those who died in unbelief are lying in their graves quite as much as those who died in faith. Hence it is vain to claim that "the reposing" are confined to dead believers. Clearly, the expression comprises all the dead, not merely those of a certain class.
Honestly, this seems to make a lot of sense, I think.
Hmm, to play devil's advocate, though, take a look at what immediately precedes that:
"Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished. ... Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing." (1 Corinthians 15:18,20)
It specifically makes mention of "those ... who are put to repose in Christ" before talking about "those who are reposing" - so it seems to me that an argument could be made that it the second is indeed only talking about those in Christ, no?
Not that this would nullify the meaning of the other stuff in the chapter, of course.
Quote from: Molly on September 18, 2009, 04:13:23 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 03:19:42 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 12:44:39 AM
Personally I'm convinced that a (shallow) study of the ancient Jewish society makes it easier to understand the larger outlines of the Bible. I see two major themes. Farming/harvesting and (preperation of) marriage.
:cloud9: Me too, WW.....and I agree, I see the same. Blessings....
Me too..
Our heavenly Father is a farmer whose Son is betrothed to us in marriage. Ok, so I'm a literalist lol.
I once heard a messianic Jew describe the marriage customs of the day, and it made perfect sense of many of the things Jesus had to say. The father picks out the bride. Then the bride and groom meet and, if they approve of each other, they seal the deal by a ceremony sharing wine and bread. They are essentially betrothed at that point and it is very hard, if not impossible, for either to back out of the deal. Then the groom goes back to his father's house and builds on an addition that will be living quarters for the new couple. The bride stays behind in her family home waiting for him to come for her. She keeps her dress prepared, even by her bedside, so that she can be ready in a moment's notice. Her bridesmaids sleep in the same room with her to be ready also.
Then, usually in the middle of the night, the groom will arrive with his best man and entourage, singing and celebrating, to take the bride to her new home. There will be a marriage feast for all the guests while the bride and groom consummate the marriage [which has already taken place at wine ceremony months before] behind the closed doors of the new bridal chamber.
I noticed you were aware of this, ww. You amaze me with how quickly you learn things.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
:cloud9: Amazing picture isn't it Molly? Good post..........and yes it amazes me how quickly WW has picked up on things since He got here. He's a fast work of our Father's hands, no doubt about it. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on September 18, 2009, 04:13:23 AM
Then, usually in the middle of the night, the groom will arrive with his best man and entourage,
IIRC the groom stays behind a blows the shofar. The bride is carried in mid air to the groom.
Molly, anyone, do you see parallels with the trumpets of Revelation and "His feet shall not touch the ground"?
Quotesinging and celebrating, to take the bride to her new home. There will be a marriage feast for all the guests while the bride and groom consummate the marriage [which has already taken place at wine ceremony months before] behind the closed doors of the new bridal chamber.
I understand the feast is after the consumation because it lasts 7 days.
QuoteIIRC the groom stays behind a blows the shofar. The bride is carried in mid air to the groom.
Molly, anyone, do you see parallels with the trumpets of Revelation and "His feet shall not touch the ground"?
Yes, now that you mention it, maybe they are carrying the groom, too. I wish I could remember the details better.
Knowing the wedding rites makes a lot of verses 'more happy' sounding.
Like coming like a thief in the night. Always sounded a bit negative to me. But actually it was a fun part of the wedding. The bride was stolen from her father. It was fun not negative.
Tim I shut up now because this all is far off-topic
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 05:40:17 AM
it amazes me how quickly WW has picked up on things since He got here.
Seems you are confusing me with Someone else... :boydance:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 09:21:22 AM
IIRC the groom stays behind a blows the shofar. The bride is carried in mid air to the groom.
:cloud9: No matter whether it's one or both getting lifted up in the air, there's the "rapture". But I think it's both......Blessings...
Cardinal you might even remove the "s around rapture.
It seems to exactly describe the event.
I assume the bride is in ecstasy.
She is carried away.
Main Entry:1rap£ture
Pronunciation:*rap-ch*r
Function:noun
Etymology:Latin raptus
Date:1594
1 : an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
2 a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
3 often capitalized : the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology
synonyms see ECSTASY
–rap£tur£ous \*rap-ch*-r*s, *rap-shr*s\ adjective
–rap£tur£ous£ly adverb
–rap£tur£ous£ness noun
:cloud9: Well, WW, I would, except for the fact for the fact there is no rapture the way the church is teaching it, and that word is not even in there to begin with.
A man took the prophecy of a young girl in Ireland and completely and without understanding of the Spirit, carnalized what was said and took his "show" on the road with it, spreading the distortion, which was quickly adopted by equally carnally minded churchgoers. Look it up, it's true. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 09:34:55 PM
:cloud9: Well, WW, I would, except for the fact for the fact there is no rapture the way the church is teaching it, and that word is not even in there to begin with.
That the exact word isn't there is of no importance to me. For starters every language has it's own words. What counts for me is that there is a word, verse, parable that supports the (concept of the) word.
It's a bit like hell. That word is really in the Bible. It's just old English that aligns perfectly with UR.
But it's burned beyond recognition by the ETs. Same for rapture. I'm very well aware of that when replying to your previous post.
Said that something similar to rapture is in the Bible. I have no idea what exactly it 'looks' like. But the concept is there. So in some shape or form it exists. Or not?
Basicly my point is if we have to stop using words that can be explained wrongly; well then the forum will become very quiet :laughing7: We should let ourselfs be muzzled by people full of negativism who have daytime job on purpose ridiculing every word they find.
QuoteA man took the prophecy of a young girl in Ireland and completely and without understanding of the Spirit, carnalized what was said and took his "show" on the road with it, spreading the distortion, which was quickly adopted by equally carnally minded churchgoers. Look it up, it's true. Blessings....
A young girl from Ireland is a bit to vague for me to Google :winkgrin:
I just checked my calendar and a rapture is very near :laughing7: :Peace:
Here's that rapture word, and where it appears in the bible.
Harpazo
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away
catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1
Home > Lexicons > Greek > harpazo > KJV Verse Count
KJV Verse Count
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Mt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Ac 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Ac 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
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2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Quote from: Gab on September 18, 2009, 04:37:16 AM
Quote from: Tim B on September 18, 2009, 04:26:30 AM
Hmm, Concordant.org has this to say about those that are reposing:
QuoteThe theme which is in view throughout this entire section, to which Paul makes the extended reply of verses 20-28, is that of the universal forlornness of all mankind if there is no resurrection of the dead (cp vs.12,19). Further, it is in the context not merely of believers, but of all mankind (v.19), in which Paul declares that Christ is the Firstfruit of those who are reposing (v.21). "Repose" is the figure of euphemism by which, in gentleness, we make mention of the dead who are lying in their graves. Those who died in unbelief are lying in their graves quite as much as those who died in faith. Hence it is vain to claim that "the reposing" are confined to dead believers. Clearly, the expression comprises all the dead, not merely those of a certain class.
Honestly, this seems to make a lot of sense, I think.
Hmm, to play devil's advocate, though, take a look at what immediately precedes that:
"Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished. ... Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing." (1 Corinthians 15:18,20)
It specifically makes mention of "those ... who are put to repose in Christ" before talking about "those who are reposing" - so it seems to me that an argument could be made that it the second is indeed only talking about those in Christ, no?
Not that this would nullify the meaning of the other stuff in the chapter, of course.
So you don't think, if the verses imply it, that if Christ is only the First-Fruit of the "reposed" Christians that it negates His saving the non-believers?
KJV1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
WW1 Corinthians 15:23 But every harvest in his own order: Christ and the first fruits harvest; afterward the fall harvest at Christ's (second) coming.
That's the way I see it Tim.
The verse speaks about:
- Order => There must be at least two things/groups to be able to order something.
- Afterward => That implies the order is (also) based on time.
:iagree:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 03:35:02 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 09:21:22 AM
IIRC the groom stays behind a blows the shofar. The bride is carried in mid air to the groom.
:cloud9: No matter whether it's one or both getting lifted up in the air, there's the "rapture". But I think it's both......Blessings...
That's brilliant!
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 10:00:09 PM
A young girl from Ireland is a bit to vague for me to Google
Google found it immediately!
"This girls name was Margaret McDonald and as far as records show she was around fifteen at the time."
Carnal thinking can do nothing but think that the word up is speaking of a geographical direction.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 09:34:55 PM
:cloud9: Well, WW, I would, except for the fact for the fact there is no rapture the way the church is teaching it, and that word is not even in there to begin with.
That the exact word isn't there is of no importance to me. For starters every language has it's own words. What counts for me is that there is a word, verse, parable that supports the (concept of the) word.
It's a bit like hell. That word is really in the Bible. It's just old English that aligns perfectly with UR.
But it's burned beyond recognition by the ETs. Same for rapture. I'm very well aware of that when replying to your previous post.
Said that something similar to rapture is in the Bible. I have no idea what exactly it 'looks' like. But the concept is there. So in some shape or form it exists. Or not?
Basicly my point is if we have to stop using words that can be explained wrongly; well then the forum will become very quiet :laughing7: We should let ourselfs be muzzled by people full of negativism who have daytime job on purpose ridiculing every word they find.
QuoteA man took the prophecy of a young girl in Ireland and completely and without understanding of the Spirit, carnalized what was said and took his "show" on the road with it, spreading the distortion, which was quickly adopted by equally carnally minded churchgoers. Look it up, it's true. Blessings....
A young girl from Ireland is a bit to vague for me to Google :winkgrin:
I just checked my calendar and a rapture is very near :laughing7: :Peace:
:cloud9: Didn't mean to offend you with that WW and I hope you're not referring to me as in "people full of negativism who have daytime job on purpose ridiculing every word they find".
I did say that the concept of it, ie. the prophecy the girl got was run with by someone who wanted to build a name for themselves, and distorted the meaning of it, spiritually speaking.
And I said the word "rapture" is not in there; that is why I put it in quotes like that, because 1) when a word is not in there, it's generally a red flag that something is wrong, and 2) when people use that word (thanks to the error out there), most people assume we're talking about flying away.
So what I was trying to clarify, however poorly, was that, I am not talking about flying away.
And thank you Molly, for posting that about harpazo.
If any would like to see the real "rapture", you can compare the concept with being born from ABOVE by being CAUGHT UP into our mother, New Jerusalem, that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about. Funny, He didn't tell him he was going to fly away..... :winkgrin: Blessings...
QuoteIf any would like to see the real "rapture", you can compare the concept with being born from ABOVE by being CAUGHT UP into our mother, New Jerusalem, that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about. Funny, He didn't tell him he was going to fly away..... Blessings...
Indeed ,Caught up In Spirit and United One to another, no longer Earthly But Heavenly. :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 19, 2009, 02:24:35 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 09:34:55 PM
:cloud9: Well, WW, I would, except for the fact for the fact there is no rapture the way the church is teaching it, and that word is not even in there to begin with.
That the exact word isn't there is of no importance to me. For starters every language has it's own words. What counts for me is that there is a word, verse, parable that supports the (concept of the) word.
It's a bit like hell. That word is really in the Bible. It's just old English that aligns perfectly with UR.
But it's burned beyond recognition by the ETs. Same for rapture. I'm very well aware of that when replying to your previous post.
Said that something similar to rapture is in the Bible. I have no idea what exactly it 'looks' like. But the concept is there. So in some shape or form it exists. Or not?
Basicly my point is if we have to stop using words that can be explained wrongly; well then the forum will become very quiet :laughing7: We should let ourselfs be muzzled by people full of negativism who have daytime job on purpose ridiculing every word they find.
QuoteA man took the prophecy of a young girl in Ireland and completely and without understanding of the Spirit, carnalized what was said and took his "show" on the road with it, spreading the distortion, which was quickly adopted by equally carnally minded churchgoers. Look it up, it's true. Blessings....
A young girl from Ireland is a bit to vague for me to Google :winkgrin:
I just checked my calendar and a rapture is very near :laughing7: :Peace:
:cloud9: Didn't mean to offend you with that WW and I hope you're not referring to me as in "people full of negativism who have daytime job on purpose ridiculing every word they find".
I did say that the concept of it, ie. the prophecy the girl got was run with by someone who wanted to build a name for themselves, and distorted the meaning of it, spiritually speaking.
And I said the word "rapture" is not in there; that is why I put it in quotes like that, because 1) when a word is not in there, it's generally a red flag that something is wrong, and 2) when people use that word (thanks to the error out there), most people assume we're talking about flying away.
So what I was trying to clarify, however poorly, was that, I am not talking about flying away.
And thank you Molly, for posting that about harpazo.
If any would like to see the real "rapture", you can compare the concept with being born from ABOVE by being CAUGHT UP into our mother, New Jerusalem, that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about. Funny, He didn't tell him he was going to fly away..... :winkgrin: Blessings...
I don't think you guys are disagreeing, really.
An experiance of feeling God's presence in a strong way could be considered a rapture. Being caught up in the air, ( the heavenlies) with him; the
coming of the Lord is mostly translated from the word
parousia which is Greek for presence. Studying these verses puts a new and true perspective on what we are to be diligantly waiting for, and it's not planes trains and automobiles crashing into one another because the pilots have left the earth. And while there will be the ultimate consumation of all things into Christ, these verses can be daily exercised by waiting for the spirit in all things ( deliverance, healing, maturity, etc).
Grace and peace
agreed, aspiring son, but, there will be a breakthrough.
Light travels, both ways, through the window
Quote from: aspiring sonStudying these verses puts a new and true perspective on what we are to be diligantly waiting for, and it's not planes trains and automobiles crashing into one another because the pilots have left the earth. And while there will be the ultimate consumation of all things into Christ, these verses can be daily exercised by waiting for the spirit in all things ( deliverance, healing, maturity, etc).
Exactly! :thumbsup:
Quote from: CardinalFunny, He didn't tell him he was going to fly away.....
No, but he did tell Nathanael this--
:bigGrin:
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
--John 1
"angels" [of God]
H4397
מלאך
mal'âkmal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy;
a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also
a prophet, priest or teacher): -
ambassador, angel,
king, messenger.
Jesus is the ladder.
:cloud9: Yes, He is........and it's a spiral ladder like our DNA, which has revolutions or generations (Genesis) as does the whirlwind that caught up Elijah, and as we receive revelation from Christ we both ascend and descend, because the Word is a two edged sword cutting asunder spirit from soul because we must decrease (descend), so He can increase (ascend).
The good news He carries or "catches us up", each step/rung of the way, so we are caught up to meet Him in the air, ie. HIS BREATH/revelation of the Spirit. He has come, He is coming and He will come.
Which is why it says man shall not live (or have life) by bread/letter alone, but by every word/breath that proceeds from mouth of God. The letter killeth (we decrease/descend) but the Spirit giveth life (we increase with Him/ascend).
Beats flying away, if you ask me. :winkgrin: Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 19, 2009, 02:24:35 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2009, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2009, 09:34:55 PM
:cloud9: Well, WW, I would, except for the fact for the fact there is no rapture the way the church is teaching it, and that word is not even in there to begin with.
That the exact word isn't there is of no importance to me. For starters every language has it's own words. What counts for me is that there is a word, verse, parable that supports the (concept of the) word.
It's a bit like hell. That word is really in the Bible. It's just old English that aligns perfectly with UR.
But it's burned beyond recognition by the ETs. Same for rapture. I'm very well aware of that when replying to your previous post.
Said that something similar to rapture is in the Bible. I have no idea what exactly it 'looks' like. But the concept is there. So in some shape or form it exists. Or not?
Basicly my point is if we have to stop using words that can be explained wrongly; well then the forum will become very quiet :laughing7: We should let ourselfs be muzzled by people full of negativism who have daytime job on purpose ridiculing every word they find.
QuoteA man took the prophecy of a young girl in Ireland and completely and without understanding of the Spirit, carnalized what was said and took his "show" on the road with it, spreading the distortion, which was quickly adopted by equally carnally minded churchgoers. Look it up, it's true. Blessings....
A young girl from Ireland is a bit to vague for me to Google :winkgrin:
I just checked my calendar and a rapture is very near :laughing7: :Peace:
:cloud9: Didn't mean to offend you with that WW and I hope you're not referring to me as in "people full of negativism who have daytime job on purpose ridiculing every word they find".
Not you Cardinal. Not even someone on this forum. More general speaking and certainly not excluding religious people.
Short example. Martin recommended a book of Klassen in another thread. I looked up the reviews at Amazon. Someone found that the author didn't use the word Trinity. Enough to burn down the whole book.
QuoteAnd I said the word "rapture" is not in there; that is why I put it in quotes like that, because 1) when a word is not in there, it's generally a red flag that something is wrong, and 2) when people use that word (thanks to the error out there), most people assume we're talking about flying away.
I have no idea what it will be like. I don't even want to argue if it happens say at 2012 or as Willie likely say it's always now. (or similar wording). That said for me that rapture is the story of the bride and groom. It's not there without reason.
Several parts of the wedding already have taken place (example the drinking of wine). Literally. So why not the other parts? I can fully accept every word in the Bible has (several) spiritual meanings. But the way I see it every prophesy has been fulfilled literally too. Jonah and the fish for example.
QuoteSo what I was trying to clarify, however poorly, was that, I am not talking about flying away.
Never thought that Cardinal.
:Peace: :reachout:
:cloud9: :ty: :2thumbs: for clearing that up! Blessings.....