Two Images

[micah7:9]

Just my curiosity again and I did not want to mess up the Two Images of Adam thread that is going well.
Chapter one Genesis, God SAID. Most give the writing of the Genesis to Moses. There are things in his record that just cause me to stop and consider his reasons for writing as he did. Moses begins with GOD said, the word "[G]god" (elohiym) alone has caused controversy being "plural" foremost: a deity, but still "gods." The doctrine of a trinity sprang from it. So I wonder why Moses just used that word God.
Why didn't Moses give credit to The Lord (Jehovah) God when He began his first record of the creation?
In chapter 2 he is specific, THE LORD GOD.....he writes of JEHOVAH God. I just wonder why he was not more specific in chapter one? He is specific in chapter 3 and even more in chapter 4. In chapter 5 he is back to "[G]gods" but verse 29 and chapter 6, which I was thought to be the number for man and flesh, it becomes a ping pong of God and Lord. Chapter 7, 8 sways again. Chapter 9 God begins His creation again, except vs. 26(the Lord) and in 10 vs. 9( the Lord)  Chapter 11, 12,13 it is all the Lord again.
We know that from the Ten Commandments (Exo_24:12) that The Lord gave, that there shall  not be no other gods before Him (Jehovah). I am just wondering why Moses used such an illusive word like "elohiym" in the beginning and very specific as he continues writing. Perhaps like other things it holds no weight, but when I read and study it causes me to wonder. And it may have nothing to do with the two images of Adam, but for me it causes me to question two images of God?

[Seth]

I don't currently believe that Moses wrote it. I think that's a tradition, but I don't see any evidence for it, either Biblical or scholarly.

[anti_nietzsche]

The way I understand jewish history, the books attributed to Moses were originally stories and songs that the Hebrews (and other peoples) had in their mythological treasure chest. Almost every verse of the Old Testament can be sung, and there are repetitions, outcries, rhythmic elements ("an affirmation of Yahweh", for example). I think what happened back then was that there was a group of semitic people in Egypt who were somehow related to an oldtime patriarch named Abraham. Moses was also a semite but grew up in Egypt and tried to better the affairs of these people. But given that it was a harsh time and there were no checks and balances, no good courts and all that, no human rights, etc, the semites continued to be troubled by the egyptians. So they revolted and ran away and had lot's of spiritual experiences. They rediscovered God and thought it's the same as their patriarch Abraham's. But they had no idea what to do with this God, what he really wanted and all that, and their spiritual experiences must have been crazy intense and also threatening. So they thought up the Law of Moses and combined it with God, in order to give them all something to rely on and to produce for them a cohesive religious identity. This can be seen in the many instances of the law that make no universal moral sense, such as applying death penalties for wearing clothes of mixed fibres or for collecting sticks on a religious holiday.

But Jesus removed the law by closing this chapter in an orderly way, because he didn't want to reject the jews. The old covenant was abolished and a new one was introduced that hinges on the cross and on unconditional grace that eventually saves every human, either before or after death. But given that humans are different, some need more structure, some need more freedom, so some believers continue to use the law while others go by the spirit. Of course Paul and Jesus Himself tell us to rely on the spirit, which also means intellectual analysis, for myself and for others, but again others want simple commandments consisting of shalls and shall nots, and they get them. However, no one is justified by anything before God really but only by Christ's Cross and the Father's grace. This means we're all consigned to sin so that we would all need grace and can't move past Jesus.

[Molly]

The entire Bible is written by the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant is the better covenant.


13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.   [Heb 9]

The New Testament is a will.


"testament"

Law A written document providing for the disposition of a person's property after death; a will.


You are receiving an eternal inheritance because you are the beneficiary of a will.  The will is the new covenant.  The testator is God.  God has to die for you to inherit under the will.   Jesus is God.  He died and the will went into effect.  You are now named a beneficiary under the will and receiving the first of your inheritance--the earnest of the Holy Spirit.

This could not happen until the cross...

because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living--Heb 9:17


And, here we see the power of the Trinity acting in concert on our behalf--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--these three--elohiym--plural--are one.  Moses didn't make a mistake when he wrote the book of Genesis.  He said exactly what he meant to say.


26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

--Gen 1



17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Rev 1

[rosered]

  Great post Molly , good to see you   back !!!!! 
 
and agree   the better covenant  :thumbsup:  and the Cross of Jesus IS  the begining   of making all things new !! new heavens and new earth

[anti_nietzsche]

Molly, I think the bible never calls itself the old or the new testament. And it's got nothing to do with a will but with a testimony. The old and the new witness, that's the bible. We would have to research since when the bible was split up in a new and an old testament and called that way.

[Lazarus Short]

The way I understand jewish history, the books attributed to Moses were originally stories and songs that the Hebrews (and other peoples) had in their mythological treasure chest. Almost every verse of the Old Testament can be sung, and there are repetitions, outcries, rhythmic elements ("an affirmation of Yahweh", for example). I think what happened back then was that there was a group of semitic people in Egypt who were somehow related to an oldtime patriarch named Abraham. Moses was also a semite but grew up in Egypt and tried to better the affairs of these people. But given that it was a harsh time and there were no checks and balances, no good courts and all that, no human rights, etc, the semites continued to be troubled by the egyptians. So they revolted and ran away and had lot's of spiritual experiences. They rediscovered God and thought it's the same as their patriarch Abraham's. But they had no idea what to do with this God, what he really wanted and all that, and their spiritual experiences must have been crazy intense and also threatening. So they thought up the Law of Moses and combined it with God, in order to give them all something to rely on and to produce for them a cohesive religious identity. This can be seen in the many instances of the law that make no universal moral sense, such as applying death penalties for wearing clothes of mixed fibres or for collecting sticks on a religious holiday.

What is your reason for thinking the events related in the books of Moses did not happen just as the books said they did?

[Molly]

Molly, I think the bible never calls itself the old or the new testament. And it's got nothing to do with a will but with a testimony. The old and the new witness, that's the bible. We would have to research since when the bible was split up in a new and an old testament and called that way.

The new testament is a will, my friend.  And, you are the beneficiary.

You do not get an inheritance unless you are the named beneficiary of a will that gives you said inheritance. 

And, for the will to go into effect, the testator must first die.

Do you know what you are inheriting under God's will?


For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

--Mat 26:28



16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

--Romans 8



13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

--Eph 1

[anti_nietzsche]

Lazarus, well Jesus was against the jewish law. I believe that the stories related in the first books of Genesis are myths. They have truth to them, but not literally. For example, the conflict between Abel and Cain has nothing to do with two literal persons named Abel and Cain but has to do with a conflict between nomadic sheep herders and early grain farmers. Abel stood for the early and easy life of animal herding while Cain stood for the more developed grain farming. There were probably two tribes, one practicing animal herding, the other settling down for farming. And they began to war with each other. Previously, when all people were nomads and travelled around all they time, they frequently met and exchanged stuff and were each other's "keeper". But once the Cainites settled down they considered their small towns their territory and were not responsible for the Abelites anymore. And when the Abelites were lucky with their herding lifestyle that had gained God's favor, the Cainites were angry and killed them. Just like the story of Adam and Eve recollects a time of when the people were hunting and gathering (ie lived in paradise without having to work), until they transitioned to other ways of living, inventing culture and thought in the process (invention of morals - knowledge of good and evil). This is well documented by anthropological science. See indigenious life in Africa or South Ameria or Asia.

Science has also proven that there never was a Global Flood like the books of the bible say. However, there was a spirit flood after which people began developing courts and laws and such. The stories of the bible have truth behind them, but we can't take them literally, not all of them anyway.

About the will, Jesus has died but He is alive again now, and His soul never died. And talking of two wills never appears in the bible but in the book of Hebrews. The calling of the bible as the Old and the New Testament is something that developed much later when the book was already written.

[micah7:9]

Just my curiosity again and I did not want to mess up the Two Images of Adam thread that is going well.
Chapter one Genesis, God SAID. There are things in this record that just cause me to stop and consider the writer and his reasons for writing as he did. The writer begins with GOD said, the word "[G]god" (elohiym) alone has caused controversy being "plural" foremost: a deity, but still "gods." The doctrine of a trinity sprang from it. So I wonder why the writer just used that word God.
Why didn't the writer give credit to The Lord (Jehovah) God when He began his first record of the creation?
In chapter 2 he is specific, THE LORD GOD.....he writes of JEHOVAH God. I just wonder why he was not more specific in chapter one? He is specific in chapter 3 and even more in chapter 4. In chapter 5 he is back to "[G]gods" but verse 29 and chapter 6, which I was thought to be the number for man and flesh, it becomes a ping pong of God and Lord. Chapter 7, 8 sways again. Chapter 9 God begins His creation again, except vs. 26(the Lord) and in 10 vs. 9( the Lord)  Chapter 11, 12,13 it is all the Lord again.
We know that from the Ten Commandments (Exo_24:12) that The Lord gave, that there shall  not be no other gods before Him (Jehovah). I am just wondering why the writer used such an illusive word like "elohiym" in the beginning and very specific as he continues writing. Perhaps like other things it holds no weight, but when I read and study it causes me to wonder. And it may have nothing to do with the two images of Adam, but for me it causes me to question two images of God?

I took this out,"Most give the writing of the Genesis to Moses." and Moses is changed to "the writer."
I don't know how else to post my thought.

[WhiteWings]

"elohiym" isn't always plural. I think it can be best compared to the word "sheep". Context determins it's singular or plural.
That said there are *many* gods in the Bible. (but only one TheGod).
AFAIK Genesis no longer exists in the original language wich had consonants only.
Hebrew changed more later on (accents for example). So possibly translation errors crept in???

[anti_nietzsche]

I would suggest a search on whether to read Genesis (and the other parts of the bible) as literal accounts of events that are all historical, or as chronicles of a search for God that in the truth happened differently than a literal reading of the book gives. For example, we know that it is very unlikely that there ever was a real global flood like in the account of Noah, so this shows us how the Hebrews must have experienced things differently than how we perceive it with a modern evangelical creationistic mindset. And most importantly, that probably first ideas were not revisited and corrected later on. Jesus had a big problem with law scholars, and for me that means we must careful not to approach the bible with the search for law, and not to make the WHOLE bible into a lawbook.

That said, I think it is likely that the usage of "gods" instead of "god" highlights the original hebrew confusion about god and gods. Much like writers of our day they have had thoughts like, "what do the gods want from us?", which accompanied them until they found monotheism. Which entails an idea of there being many gods speaking with one voice, much like there was a group of Israelites wishing to speak with one voice, ie being a disciplined and devoted people, as the law suggests.

[WhiteWings]

Just quoting what I have written down on this subject.

SINGULAR AND PLURAL

In Hebrew, plurals of masculine nouns end with 'im'.
Eloah – singular god  Elohim – plural gods
El – singular god  Elim – plural gods

So technically speaking Elohim/Elim, is plural; but context often shows it should be read as singular
Like the word 'sheep' it's the context that determines the word is singular or plural.
2000+ times Elohim means the singular Yahweh.

Ha-elohim means the-elohim. Meaning the best/highest/supreme/king/etc God of all other gods. A rank.

Beney means "son of"
Beney Elohim  Sons of gods or sons of God. To be determined by context.
Beney Elim  Sons of gods or sons of God. To be determined by context.
Beney ha-elohim  Sons of the-God. In theory it can also point to sons of group of a higher class of gods; but I think it's never used as such in the Bible.

Proper names never have the 'ha' prefix.
ah-elohim isn't a name but a rank or title.  Most high God.
ah-satan isn't a name but a rank or title.  Most high accuser.




GODS
Every entity in the spiritual world is a god. It's not a rank. Titles like angel and demon are like functions/job descriptions.

A] Satan
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds....
B] Demons
Deut 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods that they knew not...
C] Dead humans. Dead Samuel is called a god.
1 Sam 28:13 ... I see a god coming up out of the earth.
14 ... And Saul perceived that it was Samuel ...
D] Sons of God. Psalm 82 shows there are many gods.
1 God (elohim) stands in the divine council (literally, council of El); among the   gods (elohim) He pronounces judgment.
 Yaweh precedes the council. Most high of the council
2 How long will you (plural) judge unjustly, showing favor to the wicked? Selah.
 You refers the gods of verse 1. Those gods are corrupt.
3 Judge the wretched and the orphan, vindicate the lowly and the poor,
4 rescue the wretched and the needy; save them from the hand of the wicked.
 Yahweh tells the corrupt gods from verse 1 how things should be done.
5 They neither know nor understand, they go about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth totter.
6 I said, ―you (plural) gods (elohim), sons of the Most High (beney Elyon), all of you (plural);
7 but you (plural) shall die as men do, fall like any prince.
 Yahweh sentences the corrupt gods from verse 1 to death.
8 Arise (the command is singular), O God (elohim), judge (the command is singular) the earth, for you (singular) shall inherit all the nations.
 Yahweh is going to inherit all nations, the whole world
The above can't be about:
- trinity because it would mean part of the trinity is corrupt.
- humans because humans already die like humans. Making the death sentence nonsense.
- hypothetical things because then Yahweh is compared to something fictional. How does calling God higher than something that doesn't exist glorify Him?

E] Angels
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
 Angels are worships as gods.

F] Yahweh
   The supreme creator God who Christians usually just call God. Ha-Elohim.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

[micah7:9]

So why do you two, feel or think, the writer(who ever he was) began with

In Hebrew, plurals of masculine nouns end with 'im'.
Eloah – singular god  Elohim – plural gods
El – singular god  Elim – plural gods

And in chapter 2 switched to a more specific, the Lord God, singular? The Lord(singular) in Chapter 4 and so on? That has really been my quest.

[WhiteWings]

It's more a summary of a book so the all of it is just quotes/conclusions without context which likely makes it look the conclusions come out of thin air...
It's all connected but it would require more examples that would instantly steer your thread off topic. But because you ask the somewhere else in the book is the discussion if Nephlim means giants or fallen (ones). To summarize: both are possible in modern Hebrew. But not in ancient Hebrew, which had consonant only. I can post a bit about that tonight (your morning) if you wish.
That said, you see quite a few "determined by context" statements. So even if some things are based on rules of Hebrew grammar, there are still places where context determines plural or singular.

[Molly]

The first chapter of Genesis uses elohiym [God] and yes, it is meant to be plural, as we see the pronouns 'us' and 'our' used with it.   But, the verbs are always singular, much in the same way the United States always uses singular verbs even though it is referring to many states.  So we would say the United States is [singular] declaring war because we always act as one to the outside world, even though internally we are always aware of the separate states.

The second chapter of Genesis is specifically looking at YHWH elohiym [LORD God] whom I believe is Jesus and his interaction with a specific man,  Adam.  In other words, Jesus is the member of the trinity who is presenting his face to Adam during chapter 2 and 3 as representative of the godhead.

Then Adam is thrown out of the garden.

Now we see it is the LORD [YHWH] alone who leaves the garden with Adam and instructs and interacts with Adam's sons.

In the case of Genesis 4, I believe it is only Jesus who is leaving the garden to talk to the sons of Adam.



4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O LORD [YHWH] our Lord [adon], how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

--Psalm 8


It's fun to look at the Hebrew behind the English titles.

[eaglesway]

Psalm 89:7 God is respected in the council of the holy ones; God is awesome and revered more than all those around Him.(Commom English Bible)

Psalm 80:1 Elohim stands in the Adat El, He judes among the among the elohim.(Orthodox Jewish Bible)

It is my belief that the use of Elohim in Genesis one simply reflects the nature of God working with others, His mighty ones, the stars of the morning perhaps who sang with Him the song of creation, who walked with Him among the stones of fire in the primordial heavens before the foundation of the world.

[WhiteWings]

It is my belief that the use of Elohim in Genesis one simply reflects the nature of God working with others, His mighty ones,

A counsil of gods. It all looks very much like many pagan religions. Lots of gods with one leader/creator god. We see that returning in several parts of the Bible. Levitan (= the sea), Hades, Apployon, God passing judgement on gods during the plagues of Israel, splitting of nations when the Babel fell and principals start ruling those nations. Greek mythology has titans the bible has Nephlim of which the most well known is Goliath.

I'm not saying the Bible is pagan. It's just that the Bible seems to agree with the pagan stuff. The main dispute isn't if the other gods existed, but who the real creator/supreme god is, was and will be. Satan is a big copy cat. If God raises Abel satan puts Cain forward. If God raises Jesus, satan raises the anti Christ. If God raises Moses, satan raises Koreh (sp?). If God creates a cross as the sign of the Messiah, satan makes it the core of sun worship. Etc

So the point is, imo, it's impossible to understand parts of the Bible without knowing the pagan mythology. Mentioned before in this post Levitan, hades and appolyon. The Bible mentions them but the only way to figure out who they are is outside the Bible. And basically the same is true with all those god references.

[eaglesway]

Thats a matter of interpretaion. I was thnkng more along the line of YHWH, Jesus, angels etc. One God, working in and leading the council. Remember, God walked with Adam in the cool of the garden for fellowship. Our God established the new creation as a vine(Jesus the one root, YHWH the one spirit of life); a bodyJesus the one head, YHWH the one spirit); a building of living stones (again Jesus the chief cornerstone, YHWH the one spirit)

THe perspective from which we look at something, the pre mind set about what it says, determines what we see. If you are looking for pagan similarities you can interpret it that way, I do not see it that way at all because the preset of the Hebrews was and is still, HEAR O ISRAEL< THE LORD IS ONE.

If one reads it as a perspective on the Trinity one can do that as well, but the text does not demand that. Your interpretaion presents pagan roots. I think your interpretation is mistaken because your perspective is skewed.

Everything God revealed to Abraham and down through the generations of Israel is consistent. YHWH is one, and HE IS WHO HE IS- speaking of an individual and unique identity as opposed to a pantheon or an amorphous essence of spirit.

[WhiteWings]

Thats a matter of interpretaion. I was thnkng more along the line of YHWH, Jesus, angels etc. One God, working in and leading the council.

Me too. The question at hand is who were in that council? Would you call them gods, demons, angels, people or some thing else?

Remember, God walked with Adam in the cool of the garden for fellowship. Our God established the new creation as a vine(Jesus the one root, YHWH the one spirit of life); a bodyJesus the one head, YHWH the one spirit); a building of living stones (again Jesus the chief cornerstone, YHWH the one spirit)

Agreed. But satan has other plans and is always attempting to destroy that vine or claim it's his. False doctrine/paganism is seems to be one of his favorite tools doing so.

THe perspective from which we look at something, the pre mind set about what it says, determines what we see. If you are looking for pagan similarities you can interpret it that way, I do not see it that way at all because the preset of the Hebrews was and is still, HEAR O ISRAEL< THE LORD IS ONE.

I don't understand why you don't see it that way. Hades, Appolyon and Levitan are pagan. At least I'm totally unaware of anything Christian about them. Christian scholars disagree about everything but I'm not aware on any disagreement the god hades is Greek pagan stuff.

If one reads it as a perspective on the Trinity one can do that as well, but the text does not demand that. Your interpretaion presents pagan roots. I think your interpretation is mistaken because your perspective is skewed.

And likewise I think your perspective is skewed by ignoring pagan references.
And..... FYI I'm NOT saying the Bible has pagan roots. The opposite. God's teachings/ways/whatever you want to call it came first. Then satan started copying and gave things his own slant. So all paganism has Biblical roots.

Everything God revealed to Abraham and down through the generations of Israel is consistent. YHWH is one, and HE IS WHO HE IS- speaking of an individual and unique identity as opposed to a pantheon or an amorphous essence of spirit.

How does that refute paganism? To me it sounds like stating because Jesus was/is the holy Son of God satan can't exist. On top of that God also revealed there is paganism, bad spirits, demons etc. Those statements are just as Biblical as all others. For me that means the statements about paganism have equal truth in them as statements about/from, for example, Jesus.

[Molly]

Of course, I do also believe there is a Divine council.  I've spoken of it before.  I also believe that we are being raised up to replace those members of this council who rebelled against God.  Paul talks about this group in Ephesians:

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.  [Eph 6]

And again relating to the crucifixion:

None  of the  rulers  of this  age  knew  this wisdom, for  if  they had known  it, they would  not  have crucified  the  Lord  of glory. [2 Cor 2:8]


The rulers of this age could be none other than supernatural beings--the rulers of the darkness of this world.  Paul tells us they are not flesh and blood.

"coun·cil"

/ˈkounsəl/

noun

1. an advisory, deliberative, or legislative body [of people] formally constituted and meeting regularly.


Yet, in the creation story, there is no evidence that the  world is being created by anyone other than God.  God is the creator of heaven and earth and none else.   So when God is treated as plural in these passages, there is no other solution that I can see other than God is plural--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit acting as One.  God does not share his glory with the Divine council.  Nor is man created in their image, but in the image and likeness of God.

The Jews indeed believe that God is One--echad.   But, the Jews also missed Jesus as the Messiah up to this very day for this very reason.  They are not able to parse these words.

Nevertheless, the passages in the first four chapters of Genesis read the way they do, and the scripture cannot be broken, inspired as it is by the Holy Spirit.  I would suggest just continually meditating on them.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

--Gen 1


7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [Gen 2]


22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: [Gen 3]


6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? [Gen 4]




12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

--Col 1


"consist"

G4921
συνιστάω, συνιστάνω, συνίστημι
sunistaō  sunistanō  sunistēmi
soon-is-tah'-o, soon-is-tah'-an'-o, soon-is-tah'-ay-mee
From G4862 and G2476 (including its collateral forms); to set together, that is, (by implication) to introduce (favorably), or (figuratively) to exhibit; intransitively to stand near, or (figuratively) to constitute: - approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with).

[eaglesway]

Where were you when I aid the foundations of the earth....when all the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy?


I agree that there is no conclusive evidence in those verses, that anyone other than God, through the agency of the Spirit of Jesus created the world. Nor is there any conlusive evidence there for any other assertions, as I said before, just various interpretations and perspectives..... Thy are called......Opinions :o)

[JulieTang84]

Molly I agree, the Scriptures were written or caused by the Holy Spirit and to be understood they must also be read by the same Spirit. Which explains the utter confusion.   :girlheart:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Jesus was there. He wad the one who did the Creating. He is the Word and the Word Spoke.  :girlheart:
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Jesus is Yahweh  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

There is a thread around here somewhere for the Godhead discussion, no use re-opening it here :o)