Sound contradictory? Try as hard as you can but rest in God, rest in Jesus. Hmmmmmm. It can be done and is done all the time. We try to be good, we succeed and fail. When we fail we regroup and try again. When Jesus is revealed to us, we have 'Him' to rest in when we fail, that is if we see a Jesus that came to save and not condemn.
I am hearing God speak to me saying to keep trying. This is in response to my saying to Him that I want to be good and 'right'.
Does all of Scripture line up with what I am hearing God say, to keep trying?
I feel somewhat relieved by saying to God that I want to be good and 'right' for of all the things I say to Him I believe this to be of the most honest and from the heart.
I also ask God to make everyone and everything else good and right. I feel good asking this of Him. This seems to be what the Bible instructs us to do isn't it?
God is in full control of all hearts and life in creation yet I am to try as hard as I can do be good. God's work will make us try and when we realize it is God's work we will rest in it, while trying! Make sense? It is all the 'contradictions' perfectly made to work together, to me, right now, anyway.
cp
Let me add a word or two to my own post.
God says to love Him with all my heart, mind and soul or some such wording. I say to Him OK, I'll try. What more can I do? I mean it and I'm asking anyone reading these words, what more can we do but try? Can we do more? Can we?
What about all the sins we do that maybe we can do something about, those things we need to repent from but don't? Is it we can't or just don't? I mean I want to be good and I know I am not repenting of certain things and I ask myself why? I mean, I say to myself, I want to be good and repenting of these things you think are wrong is being good so why don't you repent? I say to myself that I honestly don't know. I must be lazy, or truly wicked or whatever but I do say I am going to keep trying to repent and you know what? I seem to hear a small voice within me saying......"Atta boy. You do that. Keep trying. Keep fighting the good fight."
Then I feel a bit better about myself and my relationship to God.
cp
Quote from: claypot on November 16, 2009, 02:57:34 AM
Let me add a word or two to my own post.
God says to love Him with all my heart, mind and soul or some such wording. I say to Him OK, I'll try. What more can I do? I mean it and I'm asking anyone reading these words, what more can we do but try? Can we do more? Can we?
What if God brought about something much better than that? What if we have actually been made to love him? Just something to consider.
Ron
I had been thinking about this issue today, prior to seeing this thread. I thought I may post a new thread on it, but I'll just add my thoughts here;
be holy - there is none good/only god is good
be strong - in our weakness He is strong
run the race - Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith
give voluntarily - all good gifts come from God (the Father of Lights)
pray without ceasing - the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray
have faith - salvation by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves
We grow when we let go of ourselves and trust God to do what we can't ... Any strength or talent I have....it came from the Spirit within me. ...
Ps. 49:1 God is our refuge and strength
The following 2 excerpts are from a friend of Tentmaker Ministries, Thomas Kissinger, www.hearingthetruthofgod.com
RIGHTEOUSNESS
-What is righteousness? Is it ... :
... what kind of clothes you wear ...?
... how long a lady's dress is ...?
... what kind of haircut you have ...?
... how long your hair is ...?
... whether or not a lady wears jewelry or makeup ...?
... fasting ...?
... tithing ...?
... praying ...?
... reading the Bible ...?
... going to church ...?
... giving ...?
... trying as hard as you can to be good ...?
-The answer to all of these questions is ... NO! It is none of these things. As a matter of fact, IT IS NOTHING EXTERNAL AT ALL. Here is the grand revelation of righteousness: RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT AN ACTIVITY, BUT IT IS A POSITION! It could also be said that it is a position of testimony. WHAT? Well ... Let us take a look.
-Philippians 3:9 states, ... and be found IN HIM ( CHRIST ), not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness WHICH IS OF GOD BY FAITH: ... So there are two kinds of righteousness:
1. YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS
2. GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS
( Read Luke 18:9-14 )
-The word "righteous" simply means that which is RIGHT. There is self-righteousness, which is one's own effort and trusting in yourself, and there is God's righteousness, which is faith in Christ, Who He is, and what He has accomplished. So righteousness is being IN CHRIST! IT IS A POSITION OF TESTIMONY IN CHRIST! It does not come from anything that you do. The things you do are a byproduct of your faith in Christ. Someone who is self-righteous is right in his own eyes. Someone who possesses the righteousness of God is righteous in the eyes of God, and to be right with God you must place your faith in the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus the Christ is the only truly righteous one. You must see yourself as being IN HIM, FOR THAT IS HOW YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER SEES YOU. PLACE YOUR FAITH IN HOW HE SEES YOU, FOR THAT IS YOUR TRUE IDENTITY. This is the only righteousness that God honors. Our righteousness ( self effort ) STINKS IN HIS NOSTRILS! Genesis 15:6 states, ...Abraham BELIEVED in the Lord; and the Lord counted it to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS ... Your righteousness is in Christ.
-BELIEVE!-
THE BATTLE AND THE FIGHT
-It is interesting to note that the Bible makes a distinction between man finding himself in a battle and a fight. It is important to understand the nature of our battle and of our fight. Those who understand the difference between these two will continually find themselves walking in the Spirit. The opposite of walking in the Spirit is a life of continually frustrating the grace of God. 1st Samuel 17:47 states, concerning David's encounter with Goliath, ... And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saves not with sword and spear: FOR THE BATTLE IS THE LORD'S, and HE will give you into our hands ... Now let us consider what the apostle Paul told Timothy concerning the fight in which mankind finds himself. 1st Timothy 6:12 states, ... FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH, lay hold on eternal life ( the life of the ages ) ...
-We are here faced with two things:
1. THE BATTLE
2. THE FIGHT
We are told that the battle is the Lord's and that the good fight of faith is ours. So as we can see, God plays a part and we play a part. The purpose of the ages is one that involves God and man, or you could say that it is the purpose of God to be manifested in and through mankind ( the human race ). In order for this to take place God must perform that which only He is capable of doing. We are then called upon to recognize and participate in what God has provided. Here are three key ingredients to a victorious walk in God:
1. THE BATTLE IS THE LORD'S ...
2. THE FIGHT IS OURS ...
3. THE FAITH IS GOD'S GIFT TO US ...
( ... God has dealt to every man the measure of faith ... Romans 12:3 )
-Here is a grand revelation that you should take to heart. It is worthy of much meditation. THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH, WHICH IS OURS, IS TO CONTINUALLY BELIEVE THAT THE BATTLE IS THE LORD'S!!! Let this thought become more than just mere words to you. Let it sink down deep into your spirit. It must become a way of life for you and a part of your thought process. This revelation allows you to rest, causing God to work on you, in you, and through you. This is what it means to labor ( be diligent ) to enter into His rest. Every thought, situation, trial, and tribulation must be diligently offered up to God in faith, believing that God will always fight your battles for you. THIS IS VICTORY AND PEACE IN THE MIDST OF THE STORM!
-FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH!-
This kind of ties in with my grace question in my other post.
I feel like I understand grace when I understand it to mean that nothing we do is good enough, that's why we were given the blood of Christ. That's why he came to live in us. There's nothing we can do. I don't even think we can "try". It has to be him that does it all. Does the bible ever tell us to keep trying? (real question because I don't know). It does tell us to rest in him, though.
Jesus said to do lots of things. Paul says to do lots of things. My mom pointed out to me that the only time the bible says there's something we MUST do, is when it says we MUST be born again (and we don't give birth to ourselves :) ). God knows we can't love him with all our heart and mind. He knows we love ourselves more than we love him. But we handed our lives over to Christ. It's his life now, not ours. We can try try try all day long, it doesn't matter. We are righteous because of the blood of Christ. I might be off base now, but it is the only thing that brings me peace and I needed to tell it to myself :)
...and then I hear people say "do this, don't do that", and I feel totally defeated again. It doesn't take much to defeat me haha.
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 07:01:47 AM
Jesus said to do lots of things. Paul says to do lots of things. My mom pointed out to me that the only time the bible says there's something we MUST do, is when it says we MUST be born again (and we don't give birth to ourselves :) ).
I'm assuming she's referring to this:
"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:7)
...which, taken into context (cf. John 3:3), is speaking about what one must do in order to see the kingdom of God.
She isn't actually correct on that, though - there are a number of times where Jesus explicitly speaks of what we must do:
"If anyone would come after me, he
must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." (Matthew 16:24)
"Instead, whoever wants to become great among you
must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first
must be your slave" (Matthew 20:26-27)
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you
must obey them and do everything they tell you." (Matthew 23:2-3)
"So you also
must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Matthew 24:44)
(and similar verses in Mark and Luke)
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:34-35)
One could also take the parable of the good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) to fit as well, given that it was Jesus' response to the question of, "What
must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 07:01:47 AM
God knows we can't love him with all our heart and mind. He knows we love ourselves more than we love him. But we handed our lives over to Christ. It's his life now, not ours. We can try try try all day long, it doesn't matter. We are righteous because of the blood of Christ. I might be off base now, but it is the only thing that brings me peace and I needed to tell it to myself :)
...and then I hear people say "do this, don't do that", and I feel totally defeated again. It doesn't take much to defeat me haha.
I think that when people tell others to do or not to do things, they're missing the ultimate point, really. The question is not, "What are you doing?", but rather, "Why are you doing it?" The exact same action can be loving if done for the right reasons and utterly tainted if done for the wrong reasons. People must first have love in their hearts, and from that all else will follow. Don't think about what you must do; instead, think about what you must possess that will then lead you to do everything. As we are told, everyone who loves knows God and has been born of God (1 John 4:7).
:cloud9: I asked Him one day years ago to give me the love to love Him with, when it dawned on me that He said we could do NOTHING without Him, it meant that, too. It made a difference, because essentially it's asking for more of His Spirit, and His Spirit IS love, IS righteousness. Blessings....
Lately I'm just saying to God that I want to be good, whatever that means and whoever has to make it happen, that is what I want. I want Him to be happy with me and with all His creation.
I just want to be good and right.
That's all. I don't care who does it or how it comes about, I just want it.
Does the Bible say more than this really? Does it ask of us more than this?
cp
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 16, 2009, 06:15:17 AM
Quote from: claypot on November 16, 2009, 02:57:34 AM
Let me add a word or two to my own post.
God says to love Him with all my heart, mind and soul or some such wording. I say to Him OK, I'll try. What more can I do? I mean it and I'm asking anyone reading these words, what more can we do but try? Can we do more? Can we?
What if God brought about something much better than that? What if we have actually been made to love him? Just something to consider.
Ron
I hear ya Greg. I think God somehow creates a 'want to' in a person and then a person starts 'working out his or her own salvation with fear and trembling'.
God creating the 'want to' is, IMO, God creating a person in His image.
cp
Quote from: claypot on November 16, 2009, 07:02:42 PM
Lately I'm just saying to God that I want to be good, whatever that means and whoever has to make it happen, that is what I want. I want Him to be happy with me and with all His creation.
I just want to be good and right.
That's all. I don't care who does it or how it comes about, I just want it.
Does the Bible say more than this really? Does it ask of us more than this?
cp
God sees you as perfect, righteous, and holy because you are washed in the blood of Jesus. He sees you as perfectly as He sees his Son. We are covered.
"For by one offering, He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" Heb 10:14
"You are all fair, my love, and there is no spot in you" SoS 4:7
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: claypot on November 16, 2009, 07:02:42 PM
Lately I'm just saying to God that I want to be good, whatever that means and whoever has to make it happen, that is what I want. I want Him to be happy with me and with all His creation.
I just want to be good and right.
That's all. I don't care who does it or how it comes about, I just want it.
Does the Bible say more than this really? Does it ask of us more than this?
cp
God sees you as perfect, righteous, and holy because you are washed in the blood of Jesus. He sees you as perfectly as He sees his Son. We are covered.
"For by one offering, He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" Heb 10:14
"You are all fair, my love, and there is no spot in you" SoS 4:7
But bea, I see it says He has PERFECTED.........
This to me indicates a process that was performed. I am talking about the process, not the finished result.
I want to be good and I see a working out of my salvation, by me, in God's plan. I see God as the author of this salvation and the finisher but it seems I have to do some 'trying' to get it accomplished.
cp
Quote from: claypot on November 17, 2009, 12:18:35 AM
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: claypot on November 16, 2009, 07:02:42 PM
Lately I'm just saying to God that I want to be good, whatever that means and whoever has to make it happen, that is what I want. I want Him to be happy with me and with all His creation.
I just want to be good and right.
That's all. I don't care who does it or how it comes about, I just want it.
Does the Bible say more than this really? Does it ask of us more than this?
cp
God sees you as perfect, righteous, and holy because you are washed in the blood of Jesus. He sees you as perfectly as He sees his Son. We are covered.
"For by one offering, He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" Heb 10:14
"You are all fair, my love, and there is no spot in you" SoS 4:7
But bea, I see it says He has PERFECTED.........
This to me indicates a process that was performed. I am talking about the process, not the finished result.
I want to be good and I see a working out of my salvation, by me, in God's plan. I see God as the author of this salvation and the finisher but it seems I have to do some 'trying' to get it accomplished.
cp
Yeah that was my point.. perfected.. past tense. Meaning you don't have any "trying" to do. He did it. He is the author and the finisher. He finished it. "It is finished" The process was Jesus hanging on the cross, being buried in the tomb, and being resurrected from the dead. There's nothing you can do to be good in God's eyes. NOTHING. No trying will get you anywhere in His eyes. Jesus did it all for you.. did.. past tense.. 2000 years ago.
"But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation" (Colossians 1:22).
He reconciled you.. past tense :happy3: to present you holy and without blemish :happy3:
:icon_flower:
It's one thing to try to do things in our daily lives, but to try to do something to gain salvation.. ain't gonna happen.
I fully understand it is finished yet I see God as the was, is and is to come. I see my salvation as a done deal, an ongoing reality, and future thing.
bea, I respectfully ask you, what do you do with the words that tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
cp
Edit [Was working on this while you were posting, cp. I'll post it anyway.]
I agree, we can do nothing in ourselves to obtain our salvation. Multiple scriptures back that up.
I believe there is a process for believers following salvation, and that's the piece I have personally focused in on with this thread. Maybe others are seeing other parts.
Anyway, I see;
-running the race
-fighting the fight (a crown of righteousness laid before us) [Apostle Paul, "I have finished the course, I have fought a good fight"
-having become a new creation, all things BECOMING new (literal translation)
-working out our salvation with fear and trembling
Some scriptural experts (of which I am NOT) such as Thomas Kissinger, Gary Amirault, J. Preston Eby, etc., call this process things like 'sanctification', 'pressing into sonship', 'being an overcomer', etc. Not "just" saved, that free gift that comes by faith and grace given BY God so that we are able to believe and confess Him as Master - each in his own order, but ALSO then a further processing. A growing in faith, becoming more like Him. Having to do more with obedience, rewards, position of responsibilities in God's government and administration.
So that's where all this ties in here with me. I've struggled and struggled, worked and worked, and I often then realize, there's a better way to do this. By looking to Him, asking Him for the strength, opening myself to Him and His will, and trusting Him to perform His good works THROUGH me. Because I can't do it in my own strength.
I've spent much of my life trying to be a "good Christian", which perhaps isn't ALL bad, but I've certainly usually neglected to look to Him for HIS strength to do it through me. My way is frustrating and tiresome. His way is rest.
God's blessing, James.
I was MADE TO LOVE YOU !
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxsQPg9JlOw&feature=related
Quote from: claypot on November 17, 2009, 12:59:15 AM
bea, I respectfully ask you, what do you do with the words that tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
cp
I have to look at the next line in that verse which is "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
To me, this means I have to let God do the work in me. And honestly I don't know how I can prevent him from doing the work in me :Sparkletooth:
Also, I am not convinced that the "salvation" used in that verse is spiritual salvation, but possibly physical salvation from opponents of the Philippians' faith.
And the "fear and trembling" is so contradictory to other messages in the Bible regarding fear.. that I think there is some issue with the translation.
Sooo.. what do I do with those words? Not a whole lot I guess haha.
Quote from: bea on November 17, 2009, 02:15:26 AM
And the "fear and trembling" is so contradictory to other messages in the Bible regarding fear.. that I think there is some issue with the translation.
At the time the books of the Bible were written, the notions of "fear" and "reverence" were basically identical. The word "revere" comes from the Latin word
vereri, which quite literally means both "to fear; to be afraid" and "to respect; to revere". As such, the idea that we are being told to fear is a misunderstanding that comes from the modern sense of the word, which is quite unlike the sense of the word at the time the Bible was written.
The love of the Lord is His Wisdom unto us.
Perfect love is He and we need not fear our Father who loves us beyond measure.
Come into the Lamb where there are no more tears.
Quote from: claypot on November 16, 2009, 02:41:15 AM
Sound contradictory? Try as hard as you can but rest in God, rest in Jesus. Hmmmmmm. It can be done and is done all the time. We try to be good, we succeed and fail. When we fail we regroup and try again. When Jesus is revealed to us, we have 'Him' to rest in when we fail, that is if we see a Jesus that came to save and not condemn.
I am hearing God speak to me saying to keep trying. This is in response to my saying to Him that I want to be good and 'right'.
Does all of Scripture line up with what I am hearing God say, to keep trying?
I feel somewhat relieved by saying to God that I want to be good and 'right' for of all the things I say to Him I believe this to be of the most honest and from the heart.
I also ask God to make everyone and everything else good and right. I feel good asking this of Him. This seems to be what the Bible instructs us to do isn't it?
God is in full control of all hearts and life in creation yet I am to try as hard as I can do be good. God's work will make us try and when we realize it is God's work we will rest in it, while trying! Make sense? It is all the 'contradictions' perfectly made to work together, to me, right now, anyway.
cp
Good post. What I see happening in scripture, specifically the NT is this:
1) yes the apostles DID tell us to try, to grow, to move on to perfection, to stay the course, to work, to want to please God, to keep a pure mind, to rejoice in good works and maintain them, to be good....
yet...
2) they also understood and testified about the providence of God in being the one who both chooses, and conforms his elect and eventually the world according to his timetable and plan, being that salvation from sin is a gift of God through Christ.
I think the reason such things have been debated over (why we have Armenians and Calvinists on opposite ends) is the lack of reconciling the two points. The way they are reconciled with me is that as a human I don't have the power of God fully know how deep his providental hand is, on a day to day basis. I know it, but not necessarily moment to moment.
So that causes me as a fallible human to encourage and to be encouraged according to (#1), yet in the back of my mind I understand how everything falls into (#2) which takes away any reason to boast.
Savior please keep saving me! Wonderful!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=002Q4gBUsy8&feature=related
The rest comes in knowing that he is the Author and Finisher of our faith. So as we strive, press,and be diligent,gaurding our hearts and minds, staying in humility,he is working with us, either through conviction, chastising, or confirmation.
" And be not configuring yourselves unto this age,
But be transforming yourselves by the renewing of your mind,
To the end ye may be proving what is the thing willed by God- the good and acceptable and the perfect." Rom 12-2 Rotherham
Quote from: aspiring son on November 17, 2009, 11:08:35 PM
The rest comes in knowing that he is the Author and Finisher of our faith. So as we strive, press,and be diligent,gaurding our hearts and minds, staying in humility,he is working with us, either through conviction, chastising, or confirmation.
" And be not configuring yourselves unto this age,
But be transforming yourselves by the renewing of your mind,
To the end ye may be proving what is the thing willed by God- the good and acceptable and the perfect." Rom 12-2 Rotherham
An even more concise way of putting it. :thumbsup:
You all are helping me see it like this........
It's like God ignites salvation and then we, with God, work out the details of it and then He finishes it off.
cp
Yeah, only rather than saying "with us" I would say "in us and through us."
WEYMOUTH NT - PHILIPPIANS 1
1:6 For of this I am confident, that He who has begun a good work within you will go on to perfect it in preparation for the day of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: claypot on November 18, 2009, 03:42:41 AM
You all are helping me see it like this........
It's like God ignites salvation and then we, with God, work out the details of it and then He finishes it off.
cp
I agree with this. This is basically how I see it.
Quote from: jabcat on November 16, 2009, 06:50:35 AM
THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH, WHICH IS OURS, IS TO CONTINUALLY BELIEVE THAT THE BATTLE IS THE LORD'S!!!
This is so true! Our part in the fight is to keep giving it to the Lord. It is so easy to forget this. As soon as I start to think
what do I need to do/avoid today to stay in grace? I lose my peace and am relying on self.
QuoteBut bea, I see it says He has PERFECTED.........
This to me indicates a process that was performed. I am talking about the process, not the finished result.
I want to be good and I see a working out of my salvation, by me, in God's plan. I see God as the author of this salvation and the finisher but it seems I have to do some 'trying' to get it accomplished.
It goes along with what was said earlier in this thread. The battle is the Lord's. By the way that was an awesome explanation of how the battle is the Lord's and it is up to us to fight the good fight of faith.
If you will notice in the book of revelation you will see a picture of the Lord going forth riding a white horse with "one" crown on his head. This represents "HIS VICTORY". He won the victory over sin and death. But you will see later on in revelations there is another picture of the Lord going forth riding a white horse. But this time He is wearing "MANY CROWNS". This represents the Lord going forth within all of us. He won the battle Himself and now through His Holy Spirit He is going forth within each one of us doing battle for us. IN us. You see He came to "save us from OUR sins". As we surrender to Him. And just rest in Him. And trust Him. And Believe Him. He WILL overcome all within us. It truly is His battle. We have no right to it. We are instructed to "have faith". Be "faithful" to "believe" etc. As we give each day to the Lord, KNOWING that we are HIS RESPONSIBILITY, no matter what. A few years ago I made the decision that I would give each day to the Lord , not look beyond that day and just except what ever was in that day , no matter what. Giving every second to the Lord. I truly was amazed at how things changed in my life. I am not responsible for myself. The Lord is responsible for me.
But you know what? When Paul said to "fight the good fight of faith",,, that is not an easy thing to do. But no one said it would be easy. Especially when everything around you seems to be going wrong. We don't have to do anything except have faith,, then we are doing everything.
I have been in many situations where it was a fight to "keep my mouth shut",, to not "do anything",, to "not get involved",, to "not interfer",, wanting so bad to do whatever to make the situation right. Yes it truly is a fight to have faith enough to let God fight the battle within us and without !
good post 333 ,
Thanks , needed to hear this morning :HeartThrob:
Hbr 6:12 That you be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Yeah, 333, I agree, you put it forth in a sensible way. Thanks. Much to ponder.
cp