Tentmaker Forum

The theme of this post is that mutability of the past is the very mechanism of salvation, and that if people do not find salvation in one version of history they can and will eventually find it in another.  This post will give a superficial introduction to the logic of time-symmetric causation and its overall relation to the Bible.  After that, it will show that mutability of the past is solidly rooted in the Bible, and resolve several Biblical paradoxes.

A host of Biblical passages tell us that the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world, and the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God, and nowhere is this more true than in the understanding of divine causation.  Indeed, there are  few areas where the carnal mind is more tenacious than its tendency to view "time" from a mundane perspective, i.e. to view it as a simple unidirectional process in which "cause" always precedes "effect."  This perspective leads to the view of hard scientific materialism in which the past is fixed and "natural" forward-in-time causation is all that exists.  It is a point of view that denies the power of God over time, and constrains the influence of God to the Deist belief that God sets the universe in motion and lets it run without further interaction, a set of beliefs that are utterly incompatible with the message and logic of scripture.  Taken to the utmost extreme, this view of time leads to the "block-time" of Einsteinian relativity where time assumes qualities akin to that of a spatial dimension, within which every single event in the cosmos is totally predestined, a belief that has the same core defect as Calvinist theology.

The central axiom of Judeo-Christian belief is that prophecy and miracles are both real, and that via these phenomena a transcendent God is intimately involved with the unfoldment of history.  If we were to explore this logically and assume that the interaction of God and physical reality is totally self-consistent (i.e. lawful), we would be forced to conclude that a system of time-symmetric causation exists in which "effect" can sometimes precede "cause."  This is foolishness to the world, yet for the Holy Spirit it is always thus, for what is prophecy but the backward-in-time flow of information, and what is a miracle but an event in which God momentarily frees us from the bondage of mundane causation?  People enslaved to the carnal mind will argue that the concept of time-symmetric causation is mere circular logic and would lead to paradoxes if it really existed (e.g. a person altering the past to kill his/her great grandfather as a youth).  For certain, feedback loops between past and future exist, and indeed they are the very means by which the soul of a person can exist as a trans-temporal entity with a life and will of its own.  But there is no paradox, for the changes to the past that can occur via the time-reverse aspect of causation are logically valid.

The reason that changes to the past are logically valid is because they lead not to the infinite regress of simple circular logic in which the very structure of reality would dissolve into chaos, but to an infinite regress into higher- dimensional spaces that has the capacity to hold and order an infinity of parallel timelines.  Indeed, this infinite regress has every characteristic that we traditionally attribute to "God" including: a) eternalness, b) the power of creation, c) ontological supremacy, d) omnipresence, e) omniscience, f) omnipotence, and g) utter benignity.  The scientific logic behind this can be explored in a future thread if desired.  For now, note that the above overview of divine causation affirms the key Biblical themes of prophecy, miracles, free-will, and the utter transcendence of God.

Since multiple timelines are inherent to the mutability of the past, some might object that this conflicts with the message of Hebrews 9:27 that men die (and live) once.  But this confuses the changing details of our one life and death with the essential nature of our life, an essential nature transcendent to time as per our creation in the image of God.  In this regard, the "fall" (i.e. the spiritual death that brings physical death) is an unnatural fixedness to the past in which mistakes and entropic damage accumulate faster than they can be repaired via changes to the past.

In regard to scriptural support for mutability of the past, the first things to note are the passages of Ecclesiastes 12:14, I Corinthians 4:5, and Hebrews 4:13 which affirm the omniscience of God by telling us that nothing is hidden from God, and that He will bring every deed into judgement.  None the less, Isaiah 65:16 tells us point blank that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  Sure, I'm taking a verse literally that most take poetically.  But this just begs the question of whether God can change the past so that a person's troubles (and sins) are so thoroughly expunged from the fabric of reality that they "never happened in the first place."  In direct support of this, the very next verse tells us, "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind," an affirmation of a change so deep that even our memory of the past is affected.  Job 11:6 further affirms this when Zophar tells Job that God has forgotten some of his sins.

An equally great but slightly more obscure affirmation of the mutability of the past is inherent to the prophecy of Nineveh's destruction in the book of Jonah, a situation in which a prophecy that failed to come true was canonized in scripture.  The key issue is that an unconditional prophecy was canceled because the people repented.  A proper interpretation that honors the transcendence of God would be that God saw the destruction He wrought on one timeline and spun off a new timeline when the people repented.  With a conditional prophecy we could assume a single version of history with two prophesied outcomes, something that would satisfy the carnal mind.  But with an unconditional prophecy, the only alternative to parallel timelines is to assume that God lied or that Jonah was a false prophet.

Parallel timelines are also the perfect explanation for the narrative discrepancies between the various books of the New Testament.  Because the mundane mind assumes that there is only one version of history, skeptics are forever putting Christians on the defensive by highlighting the near-impossibility of integrating these divergent narratives into a single sequence of events.  On the other hand, if we remember that the Crucifixion/resurrection is the very focal point through which all versions of history must flow if universal redemption is true, we can jettison the apologetic contortions.  Indeed nothing could more honor the reality of God made flesh, than a scenario in which Jesus so thoroughly welded and sorted the myriad alternative timelines of humanity, that the New Testament could bring together the wisdom of numerous timelines due to the transcendent presence of Jesus at the very heart of it.

Likewise, we have conflicting prophecies from the entire Bible between "end-time" scenarios of total destruction, small remnants surviving, and multitudes praising the glory of God, with the book of Revelation being a perfect microcosm of these divergent scenarios.  From the perspective of the carnal mind, these prophecies are hopelessly contradictory.  From the perspective of the carnal mind wrestling with the Truth of Spirit, we have faith that the Bible is true but then falsify it by with contorted eschatologies that attempt to string these prophecies together in a way that was never intended.  From the perspective of the Spirit, we honor a God who transcends not just a single version of history, but the entirety of all versions of history that could ever exist.  A God so transcendent, He can afford to let humans have free-will, and so loving as to create as many timelines as needed for all to be saved.

Viewed from this perspective, the conflict between salvation by grace and by faith dissolves once we realize that an omnipotent God can by grace spin off as many versions of history as necessary until a person finds faith in God.  Likewise, the nominally eternal damnation that might exist from a mundane perspective is trumped by the creation of parallel timelines transcendent to mundane time.  In this regard, the lake of fire is nothing but the innumerable timelines a person could go through for "the ages of the ages" until they turn to God.  Indeed, even Adolph Hitler and Genghis Khan can be trivially forgiven if on some alternate version of history they surrender their heart to God and choose a different life.  With this, consider the demand by a skeptic of UR for scriptural affirmation of the following:

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

For certain, each of these can be affirmed by quoting the appropriate verses of the Bible, but it can be like a heated battle if each camp feels that the other is systematically misinterpreting the Bible.  By contrast, if we can show that the Bible systematically affirms an omnipotent God actively creating parallel timelines, this entire set of issues dissolve into nothingness.  A future thread will show how the Bible systematically affirms the transcendent cosmic destiny that must exist if time-symmetric causation is for real.  For now, I invite scriptural discussion both pro and con for the concept of trans-temporal salvation just presented.

:icon_flower:

Hi TB

I have had folk saying to me Huh?  :mshock: in the past but this is a totally new concept hence the lack of responses.  Makes interesting reading but I guess we are going to see a bit more of where you go with this - nothing is implausible.

Possibly use smaller words to get the message across and cut it into smaller bytes  :laughing7:

I am pretty fluent in English but the grammar you use does seem a little over the top even for me.

Not to insult you in any way but I guess I am saying we folk here are relatively simple and probably much of what you share is going over our heads.  If some folk do not understand me I guess you are going to have a harder time teaching this.

I never considered parallel time lines and that is an interesting perspective yet the concept still ends off with a common goal.  I am guessing here but in a nutshell are you saying the ET folk will have the heaven they espouse and the UR folk the heaven they espous or IOW what we conceive in our minds becomes our personal relative reality?

I can relate to that as I have always seen the relationship to the Father to be a one-One and what we share here has commonality only in certain areas.

As for remembering our past, I think it is all there still, we just do not know how to access those memories.  Hypnotism shows that this can be achieved.  Possibly at conversion/enlightenment, a lock is placed on those non critical issues yet there is the matter of inner healing - a process of dealing with traumatic past events in that the brain blocks out these memories.  The process of inner healing brings these out via divine revelation and then one is helped to forgive the offender and "replace" that memory with say a scripture.  Having been through that process, it possibly can work as there we blocked things in my mind that were unblocked and dealt with, the memory is there but the pain associated is gone.

So in the case of suggesting the past can be altered, yes in a way but in reality is more just a present mechanism in dealing with a bad past experience, if I can still remember that which traumatised me but now no longer has any bearing on my present psyche then the past did happen and only the memories are changed.

Well in the sense that memories being completely obliterated, that would give credence to the ET perspective where they believe that together with tears being wiped away, memories will go too.  Now if that is true, I sure would not like that scenario but if it was eradicated, I would not be aware of my memories in the first place so it would not matter.  Pretty much like the movie MIB with that magic pen of theirs.

I believe our memories remain intact.  Now for Hitler and serial killers that alone would drive them nutz and would be hell in itself.  However the bible does say "behold I create all things anew"  If we then stay on the recall/remanufacture scenario then what purpose does this life then serve?  If we are to learn exponentially and then just get zapped with no recall then any POV of religion/faith is OK as it matters not.

I think this could be a dangerous line of thinking as that really portrays a message of no matter what you do, it does not matter and I do not think that is the message of UR.

I think that which you are suggesting is a way of covering all bases whereas the message of UR does it similar only that the channel or doorWAY in is via Jesus Christ where every knee (believers and unbelievers) shall bow.

This hypothesis also nullifies the reincarnation model as why come back if each time you return zapped with a clean sheet?  Surely if reincarnation is true, we should have memories of what we did wrong.  The reincarnation aspect IMO leaves too much to chance and is no better a theology of the ET folk that say you need to geddit right in this lifetime also based on chance.  Furthermore, the population growth is such that the recycling of souls seems implausible otherwise we would have a consistent population count meaning every death is followed by a birth 1:1  Now we all know that the population has increased and in fact in other areas like in Europe decreased.  Most families trend is replacement only yet there are still many that have more than 2 children.  So how then does your hypothesis deal with birth control?  That is an unnatural causation hence if I and my wife used not BC we could well have had 21 children by now.  Also they say some BC methods are mini abortions meaning that there was a fertilization that took place but the body is forced to reject the embryo, and I am not talking about the abortion pill.

So I guess you are saying in a parallel timeline I may be the father of 21 kids or more considering my messing around before I got married, hence I could end up with multiple wives and they too will have multiple husbands :eek: :mshock:  Maybe that is why it states we are not male nor female and are NOT given in marriage.

Blessings

Hi SeekerSA,

Thank you for reading my post and giving your feedback. :angel5: I take your message to heart about simplifying what I have to offer.  I suffer from a background in hard-science and would really like to write an article for PhD physicists (thus my over the top style), but feel guided to offer the message in Biblical terms at first.  Clearly, I need to submit my mind more deeply to the Lord and let a message of simplicity emerge that can be spoken from the mouth of a child.  I hope this post is better.

QuoteI never considered parallel time lines and that is an interesting perspective yet the concept still ends off with a common goal.  I am guessing here but in a nutshell are you saying the ET folk will have the heaven they espouse and the UR folk the heaven they espous or IOW what we conceive in our minds becomes our personal relative reality?

I can relate to that as I have always seen the relationship to the Father to be a one-One and what we share here has commonality only in certain areas.

The logic of divine causation supports UR 100%, I guess I could have written it more clearly.  On the one hand I do affirm a one-one relationship with God, and hence a personal relative reality of sorts in that people can choose to reject God's Grace and Will on many different versions of history, and as a punishment fail to be born in a great many versions of history, an experience that could be truly hellish.  But since we are created in the image of God, there eventually comes a point where everyone will heed the call.  In this regard, UR comes via a relentless movement sideways in time into versions of history in which all people eventually turn to God and do His Will, even if from the perspective of mundane time they may have died the most unrepentant of sinners.  From a strict linear-time perspective there is the illusion of non-redemption for unrepentant sinners, but it is just that, an illusion.  From the perspective of a higher, sideways dimension of time in which God overcomes all sin, UR is an obvious reality.

QuoteAs for remembering our past, I think it is all there still, we just do not know how to access those memories.  Hypnotism shows that this can be achieved.  Possibly at conversion/enlightenment, a lock is placed on those non critical issues yet there is the matter of inner healing - a process of dealing with traumatic past events in that the brain blocks out these memories.  The process of inner healing brings these out via divine revelation and then one is helped to forgive the offender and "replace" that memory with say a scripture.  Having been through that process, it possibly can work as there we blocked things in my mind that were unblocked and dealt with, the memory is there but the pain associated is gone.

So in the case of suggesting the past can be altered, yes in a way but in reality is more just a present mechanism in dealing with a bad past experience, if I can still remember that which traumatised me but now no longer has any bearing on my present psyche then the past did happen and only the memories are changed.

I am not in any way referring to forms of healing in which the trauma of a bad event has been expunged from one's psyche, but the memories of the event remain.   I honor these lesser forms of healing, but in this thread I'm talking about a process in which Jesus Christ brings the forgiveness of the victims and repentance of the offenders together under His Power to excise bad events from the flow of history such that from a mundane perspective they "never happened in the first place."  Indeed, Jesus is continually tweaking the whole of history with the greatest of artistry.  Moreover, the deepest form of surrender possible is the forgiveness, repentance, and humility by which our own personal history can be changed, a depth of surrender in which we offer ourself to Jesus the same way a bride offers herself to her husband, and by which we become "pregnant" with the great blossoming of life that awaits.  It is this surrender that leads to the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit by which we can move simultaneously forward and sideways in time, and thereby "change timelines" without physically dying.

QuoteWell in the sense that memories being completely obliterated, that would give credence to the ET perspective where they believe that together with tears being wiped away, memories will go too.  Now if that is true, I sure would not like that scenario but if it was eradicated, I would not be aware of my memories in the first place so it would not matter.  Pretty much like the movie MIB with that magic pen of theirs.

I believe our memories remain intact.  Now for Hitler and serial killers that alone would drive them nutz and would be hell in itself.  However the bible does say "behold I create all things anew"  If we then stay on the recall/remanufacture scenario then what purpose does this life then serve?  If we are to learn exponentially and then just get zapped with no recall then any POV of religion/faith is OK as it matters not.

I think this could be a dangerous line of thinking as that really portrays a message of no matter what you do, it does not matter and I do not think that is the message of UR.

As I understand it, memories remain intact on a spiritual level until an alternate timeline unfolds, and yes Hitler's soul is in a temporary hell of sorts, and given the description of near-death experiences it can be quite hellish.  In regard to the purpose of life, the choices we make really do matter, for the events in our life inspired by love, truth, righteousness, brotherhood, humility, charity, etc. are harvested by Jesus and tend to persist over even the most radical of changes to the flow of history, even if the details of our life are radically shuffled.  And even if some worthy events disappear on some versions of history, they "will" tend to reappear over and over on other versions of history.  The bad events; however, tend to disappear forever, and with continued sideways-in-time movement even the mediocre events will disappear, for such is the Power and Grace of God in the working of our salvation.

Notwithstanding the continual tweaking of history by Jesus, big changes can occur when versions of history get zapped by the Father because the entire planet has gone badly off course, with the classic example being a "previous" version of history in which Nazi Germany won WWII and conquered the entire planet.  Philip K. Dick wrote a couple of books of pulp science fiction with this as the setting.  In his memoirs, he wrote that God showed him that his setting was nonfiction and that it really did happen, and as a result he was too nauseated at the horror of what happened to finish the third book of the series.  Likewise, an all out nuclear war may have already happened on many previous versions of history, I have no definite knowledge of such, but if so the "big zap" is definitely the most merciful thing that could have happened.

PK Dick went on to say that God showed him that history not only unfolds forward-in-time as seen from the view of man, but also it unfolds sideways-in-time due to the ever present grace of God to save a fallen humanity from itself, and that this sideways-in-time change brings a continuous qualitative improvement to the nature of life via the grace of God as described above.  It's easy to dismiss his ideas as the ravings of a madman who took too much LSD, but three things convinced me to accept his idea of continuous sideways-in-time improvement as truth:

1.  His idea of sideways-in-time evolution correlates perfectly with the logic of time-symmetric thermodynamics which I read just prior to his memoirs, a system of hard scientific logic based on the application of quantum wave/particle duality to the definition of entropy and the reality of "vital energy" as a flow of backward-in-time energy.

2.  He was adamant that the entire process of sideways-in-time movement was anchored in the cross and that the events of the early Christian era are still playing out despite the appearance of being 2000 years in the past, and after 14 years of research I have found a very detailed correlation between the above logic and the message of the Bible.

3.  He said that God flipped the outcome of WWII by altering the outcome of several key events, something that dovetails perfectly with the historical record in that Hitler would have won were it not for a string of miraculous events wherein a single decision by Hitler or single small event could have completely flipped the war's outcome.

QuoteI think that which you are suggesting is a way of covering all bases whereas the message of UR does it similar only that the channel or door WAY in is via Jesus Christ where every knee (believers and unbelievers) shall bow.

Salvation is certainly via Jesus Christ, all I'm talking about is the "mechanism."  Sorry for not making this clear.  The key issue is that the salvation we receive by grace must reflect itself outwardly in good works either on this version of history or some other so that the whole world may eventually know the grace of God both inwardly and outwardly, and receive the destiny that the Father has decreed for the whole of humanity.  Please consider the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in this:

1.  The Father decrees a reality that: a) is 100% lawful/self-consistent as an reflection of His Truth, b) has sideways-in-time potential as a reflection of His Mercy, and c) has stupendous potential for life as a reflection of His Life.  Pursuant to this, the Father decrees a transcendent cosmic destiny with a population in or beyond the sextillions where love, truth, humility, charity, righteousness, and brotherhood prevail on those versions of history in which humans freely embrace His Will.

2.  The Son harvests the events of each person's life that are consistent with the Father's Will and weaves them into "future" versions of history as mentioned earlier.  It is solely via Jesus that the memories and goodness of our lives are not only saved in the sideways movement from one version of history to the next, but saved so thoroughly that we have but one internally coherent life, albeit sideways in time with mundane memories and destinies that vary along the way.

3.  The Holy Spirit inspires to the love, truth, righteousness, brotherhood, humility, and good works that will eventually lead humanity to the destiny decreed by the Father.  To the extent that a Christian or even a non-Christian receives the Holy Spirit, the events of one's life will be like the threads of a beautiful tapestry.  If one refuses/blasphemes the Holy Spirit there will be very little for Jesus to save from one version of history to the next.

To use a metaphor, I see time as a two-dimensional tapestry in which mundane time goes forward from left to right, and different versions of history build from bottom to top.  The two dimensional structure is hinted at in the curious phrase in Revelation, "the ages of the ages" (i.e. ages sideways in time of ages of mundane time), one of the many places where the exact literal translation of the Bible hints at something of great significance.  The left hand-edge of the tapestry glows with preternatural brilliance in representing the original creation prior to the sin of Adam.  The bottom part of the tapestry is browns, greys, and other dark colors mixed with areas of pure black when we refuse Spirit entirely.  This portion represent the versions of history most deeply entangled with the fall, and includes versions of history such as those in which Hitler won WWII.  As we follow the tapestry upwards, the colors get lighter as versions of history come into existence in which our lives are more righteous, and when we find salvation in Christ, some of the events of our lives begin to glow with the brilliance of the original creation.  This portion includes more "recent" versions of history in which Hitler lost WWII, and going a bit higher will include versions of history in which Hitler was removed from power in a coup.  Going still higher, the events of our lives will form an increasingly beautiful artwork, and will include more enlightened versions of history in which WWI ended on much less vindictive terms, Hitler was a successful artist, and WWII never even happened, and so on.

QuoteThis hypothesis also nullifies the reincarnation model as why come back if each time you return zapped with a clean sheet?  Surely if reincarnation is true, we should have memories of what we did wrong.  The reincarnation aspect IMO leaves too much to chance and is no better a theology of the ET folk that say you need to geddit right in this lifetime also based on chance.  Furthermore, the population growth is such that the recycling of souls seems implausible otherwise we would have a consistent population count meaning every death is followed by a birth 1:1  Now we all know that the population has increased and in fact in other areas like in Europe decreased.  Most families trend is replacement only yet there are still many that have more than 2 children.  So how then does your hypothesis deal with birth control?  That is an unnatural causation hence if I and my wife used not BC we could well have had 21 children by now.  Also they say some BC methods are mini abortions meaning that there was a fertilization that took place but the body is forced to reject the embryo, and I am not talking about the abortion pill.

The logic of divine causation affirms the creation of a new soul each time a person is conceived as per mainstream Christian theology, a soul that will never die and will eventually find its place on numerous timelines that partake of the cosmic destiny in perfect harmony with universalist theology.  Reincarnation requires a separate thread, but suffice to say that a tremendous amount of confusion arises from the failure of both Christians and non-Christians to properly distinguish between souls which do not "reincarnate" but instead seek resurrection in parallel timelines whereby they can expunge memories of evil, and spirits of power which "reincarnate" in the way Elijah "reincarnated" as John the Baptist, and will again "reincarnate" in the "end-times" as per Malachi 4:5-6 and Matthew 17:11.  Far more important, is the fact that soul represents the entanglement of time-reverse "vital energy" with the matter and energy of the mundane realm, an energy needed for the self-organization of that person's body and maintenance of health at all stages of growth and development.  And because this vital energy is of an inherently time-reverse nature, its entanglement with the mundane realm via a conception can never be reversed, even if a person's body dies or is aborted.

As far as BC and abortion go, there is no human action that more entangles humanity with its fallenness than abortion as a means of birth control, especially in the context of promiscuous sexuality, for it is God's Will that every soul receive His/Her full measure of life. As such, a host of aborted fetuses with even one partner is bad, and with an array of partners its creates a royal mess that Jesus will have to eventually straighten out in alternate timelines via the shuffling of partners.  And since the hidden abortions inherent to hormonal contraceptives and other forms of BC occur at 6-10 times the rate of reported abortions, the situation is much worse than most are aware of, thus instead of having 50 million cumulative abortions in the US since 1973, there have really been 300-500 million abortions.  Even worse are the myriad embryos that could be created and destroyed if the procedures for producing medical stem cells do not safeguard the life of embryos but instead treat them as an industrial resource.  This could easily result in myriads of embryos being created from people who have never even met each other, yet in alternate timelines would have to meet each other and at the very least conceive and birth these "industrial embryos."

Jesus will save every one of these aborted souls and assure that they receive the fullness of life via the creation of alternate timelines, and will do so without violating the self-consistency of reality that has been decreed by the Father.  The caveat is that the number of fetuses now being aborted is so huge that humanity is rapidly approaching the limit of what can be repaired within of constraint of universal self-consistency, at which point the Father will intervene and mandate apocalyptic destruction.  In short, the unintegrated vital energy of aborted and murdered people can only be repaired via sideways movement in time by which these people can be restored to life.  We may not be aware of this repair process because our memories change with the changing of the past, but it is very real.  And if the unintegrated vital energy of murdered and aborted people builds up faster than it is being repaired, God will let this version of history self-destruct to prevent temporal paradox. 

It is not preordained that a destructive scenario must occur, for people can always turn their hearts to God.  But it is preordained that if abortions, murder, and war continue on a large scale, then Islamic and ecological fanaticism will build to monumental levels of mass-insanity at the exact same moment the global economic system is collapsing due to trade imbalances and runaway debts, at which point this version of history will be toast.  And given the gross misdirection of global society that now exists, the only real hope is a major "end-time" Pentecost that turns the hearts of people to God while at the same time radically increasing our movement sideways in time.  The key to this "end-time" Pentecost is the Bible, and if we don't unlock the full meaning of God's Word ASAP, we'll be begging God's forgiveness in failing the great commission, and begging Jesus for the big "memory zap" by which we could forget the horror of apocalyptic destruction via the creation of an alternate timeline.

QuoteSo I guess you are saying in a parallel timeline I may be the father of 21 kids or more considering my messing around before I got married, hence I could end up with multiple wives and they too will have multiple husbands    Maybe that is why it states we are not male nor female and are NOT given in marriage.

Yes, you may indeed be the father of 21 kids given the spontaneous abortions inherent to most forms of BC, and regardless of the exact number, rest assured you will love them and be there as a father on a great many "future" versions of history.  And yes, it is for this reason that Jesus said we will not marry nor be given in marriage in the Kingdom of Heaven.  Someday as humanity moves sideways in time high up in the tapestry of time, you, many of your partners, and many of their partners may live in a communal marriage, but this will happen in God's Time on unfallen versions of history in which scripture itself will affirm this. (Indeed, the one way the Bible itself can legitimately change is in our movement sideways in time, for God is in no way constrained to the exact same message from timeline to timeline.)  For now, our challenge is to humbly accept the Bible we now have, unlock its many secrets, and by this means prevent apocalyptic destruction.

:dsunny:  :icon_flower:

Surprise, it isn't a new approach to biblical universalism. This is how I interpreted Origen viewed reality just without the scientific terms we know today. I actually expanded on this view a lot here in Tentmaker.

I have always believed that God gives us an answer to prayer when done out of sincere motives, and all my life as a child I had very strong faith in the power of God to show me things that I may not understand at the time, but it would come back to remembrance. Many years ago when I was 13, my cousin and I taught Scripture and other biblical concepts. One day as we were in intense prayer, one of the questions we asked God was concerning the concept of infinity. All of a sudden both Blayne (my cousin) and myself felt light headed and then we saw something like reality just rip before us and we saw layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of reality bundled before us. We had no idea what we were looking at but the information we saw things which even to this day I have a hard time explaining. Then we both had headaches for the rest of the day as our mind was processing all the information we were seeing. At the time, I had no idea of quantum, or folded membranes, except what we were told in Star Trek. Even to this day when I talk to my cousin, we both agree whatever happened to us in my room praying to God is still unexplainable but I knew that what I saw was more than this reality.

I have hidden in a folder online in which I have my private writings. This is an essay I wrote at age 23 concerning this vision.

Let me find it....
Here it is...

REMEMBER EVERYONE WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ WAS WRITTEN PRIOR TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION. IT WAS MY THOUGHTS ON WHAT I SAW WHEN I WAS 13.
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I have studied the concept of God being in the realm of Eternity since I was 13 years old. The Lord gave me this following revelation at a very young age and never have I been able to word it in this manner without giving myself a headache. Reading it now, it seems to flow perfectly to what I have been trying to explain for the last 10 years. You can imagine, the first time I tried to tackle this subject of Predestination the combination of a soverign God and the ability for an individual to free make up their mind and choose their destiny. Now this may not be your view, which is absolutely acceptable

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If you have any interest in science and quantum physics. This revelation was one of the many theories that has actually risen to conclusion of probability  when it comes to time travel. If a person is able to travel outside the realm of time and space. They are able to be in all places at one time and are able to change circumstance without the need of cause and effect (since time is not an issue). Literally, scientists, who do not believe in God, came up with this theory: if you were to somehow achieve the infinite power needed to advance yourself outside the realm of space and time, you can literally yourself be like God. Now before you throw stones, realize it is impossible to have ever and ever obtain infinite power to do this. God however is Infinite in all His ways and the following example will explain how this affects His own creation.

To give my interpretation of Predestination in the most simplified manner will take some logic to understand. God is not constrained to the linear space and time as we are. In fact He exists in a third dimension of time which knows every outcome but can change every outcome at the same time. Our minds cannot fathom the infinite possiblities and infinite space that God has created and maintains. He is God and as such He is the only who One who has this compasity.

So to give it an illustration:

There are two types of space we can see being that we are three dimenisonal beings. We can create and see the Width, Length, and Height (X,Y,Z). and we can also create and see the world of the two dimensional such as paintings and basic geometric shapes on flat surface etchings. Although the shading may make it appear three-dimensional when you draw a cube, it is just a bunch of linear points connected, unlike if you were to sculpt a cube or fill an ice tray with water, freezing it and producing a cube of ice.

If we were two dimensional beings we could only see width and length (X,Y) and since it is impossible for us to see (Z) we can only give the logic that X and Y are the only variables that we have availible and we must follow the points to witness them. Example: A -------------------------- B. We would imagine a third dimensional being could actually raise himself above the points of A and B (X,Y) and always know the ending without needing to walk the linear passage to see it.

Now being three dimensional beings, we have the ability to erase sagments of A -------------------------- B and make them A -- B or change the letters to  A -------------------------- C. Since we are three dimensional beings we have the power to do so.

Now that is an example of space, but let us remove the space and replace it with time. We live in a two dimensional time grid. We can only see from point A to B because we had to start at A and wait until B arrives. However, along the way a three dimensional time Being, gave us a chance to actually remove various sagments, allowing us through His Name the ability to move mountains and have the ability to converse with this three dimensional time being. He could literally see the path you are on and the path you have taken but he can easily intercede by your request and take out segments that naturally should have been there. So you start out as A -------------------------- B and B=Hell. However somewhere between A -------------------------- B the Word of this Being was presented to you and you recieve this and become a child of this three dimensional being. He would have changed the result from A -------------------------- C and C=Heaven! Perhaps you made mistakes in your past and you in between A -------------------------- C you have made an error that cannot be naturally reverse by your own two dimensional properties. The three-dimensional being can easily change the circumstance and result without you actually even realizing it, so now instead of A -------------------------- C you have A ------ C. However, since you are a two dimensional being, you actually have not memory of A -------------------------- C nor of A -------------------------- B you have only the knowledge that the life you live is now A ------ C. This all because a three dimensional being came along in your life and had the authority and power and gave it to you in His Name.

That is as simple as I can put it without complicating it further and losing the concept. God is that Three Dimensional Being, we are only two dimensional beings. We cannot comprehend or even fathom the power of God to know all things including the things that were, but never came to pass.

Does God want us to ask for guidence?

Jeremiah 33:3: "Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know"

John 16:13: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

The crux of the problem is that the Word of God also states none actually seek God by their nature. (Romans 3:9-18) So we are in need of a messenger or message of God to intervene in our lives to actually earnestly seek him. (Romans 10:14-15; Hebrews 11:6)

Does God know the future?

He does! According to: (Isaiah 46:9-10; Psalms 139:16; Jeremiah 29:11)

Proverbs 5:21 "For a man's ways are in full view of the Lord and he axamines all his paths."

The Lord does know our heart and our ways, seeing the pathes we are on. (Psalm 139:1-6 a beautiful passage.)

Does God Actively Intervene?

The book of Job in many peoples opinion that God did not intervene for his servant Job. However, He did prevent satan from doing certain things to Job. Although Job did not see the intervention, it does not mean it was not so.

There is however times when God's intervention changed the course of mankind. At the time of the great flood, God had seen the wickedness of the people and their wickedness had caused a chain reaction which would bring forth their complete destruction.

Genesis 6:6-7 "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."

The Lord would have done so if it were not for one man who found favor in the eyes of the Lord, He would have done it. However one man found favor and it was Noah who appealed to the Grace of God and through that, it was adverted.

Another time, God saw the wickedness of Nineveh and devinely intervined by calling forth Jonah to preach. Jonah ran away, but God devinely intervened and changed Jonah's coarse and in Jonah 3:10 "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened."

Perhaps the most wonderful intervention is the event of Christ Jesus being sent to the Cross to die in propitation for our sin (Galations 2:20; Romans 8:31-29; Ephesans 2:1-3) For if this event did not occur, we would die in our sin and get our just reward. The Lord brought messengers of angels and of men to the world to save it through His Word, another divine intervention. Those who should be sick are healed of their illness through supernatural gifts of God, another point of devine intervention. Despite the most laid out plans of man, God intervenes!

Conclusion

Perhaps a great verse that summerized my revelation of God's position is Daniel 2:21.

Daniel 2:21 "He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning
----------------------

REMEMBER THAT I SEE THINGS A BIT DIFFERENTLY NOW THAN THEN. THIS IS JUST FOR READING SAKE, THIS IS NOT WHAT I CURRENTLY BELIEVE, THOUGH THERE ARE ASPECTS WHICH ARE WRITTEN HERE WHICH I BELIEVE.

pouring coffee and checking the time....can I make it to Wal-Mart and get 5 refills for my printer before they close?  :laughing7:

I also saw the Story in the same way you did True Believer. That Nineveh was destroyed in an alternate reality which God had seen, and God intervened and the people repented.

willieH:  Hi True Believer... :hithere:

I REALLY... REALLY, do not mean to offend you new brother... but   :blahgreen: :lazy:  ...Just kidn!   :icon_jokercolor:

If you take offense at this response, ...then you do,  and there is nothing I can do other than to note that I mean NONE of this response as offensive to YOU... but to your WORDS... well, ...they speak (or dont speak) for themselves...

Quote from: True Believer on August 10, 2008, 01:56:47 AM
The theme of this post is that mutability of the past is the very mechanism of salvation, and that if people do not find salvation in one version of history they can and will eventually find it in another.  This post will give a superficial introduction to the logic of time-symmetric causation and its overall relation to the Bible.  After that, it will show that mutability of the past is solidly rooted in the Bible, and resolve several Biblical paradoxes.

A host of Biblical passages tell us that the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world, and the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God, and nowhere is this more true than in the understanding of divine causation.  Indeed, there are  few areas where the carnal mind is more tenacious than its tendency to view "time" from a mundane perspective, i.e. to view it as a simple unidirectional process in which "cause" always precedes "effect."  This perspective leads to the view of hard scientific materialism in which the past is fixed and "natural" forward-in-time causation is all that exists.  It is a point of view that denies the power of God over time, and constrains the influence of God to the Deist belief that God sets the universe in motion and lets it run without further interaction, a set of beliefs that are utterly incompatible with the message and logic of scripture.  Taken to the utmost extreme, this view of time leads to the "block-time" of Einsteinian relativity where time assumes qualities akin to that of a spatial dimension, within which every single event in the cosmos is totally predestined, a belief that has the same core defect as Calvinist theology.

The central axiom of Judeo-Christian belief is that prophecy and miracles are both real, and that via these phenomena a transcendent God is intimately involved with the unfoldment of history.  If we were to explore this logically and assume that the interaction of God and physical reality is totally self-consistent (i.e. lawful), we would be forced to conclude that a system of time-symmetric causation exists in which "effect" can sometimes precede "cause."  This is foolishness to the world, yet for the Holy Spirit it is always thus, for what is prophecy but the backward-in-time flow of information, and what is a miracle but an event in which God momentarily frees us from the bondage of mundane causation?  People enslaved to the carnal mind will argue that the concept of time-symmetric causation is mere circular logic and would lead to paradoxes if it really existed (e.g. a person altering the past to kill his/her great grandfather as a youth).  For certain, feedback loops between past and future exist, and indeed they are the very means by which the soul of a person can exist as a trans-temporal entity with a life and will of its own.  But there is no paradox, for the changes to the past that can occur via the time-reverse aspect of causation are logically valid.

The reason that changes to the past are logically valid is because they lead not to the infinite regress of simple circular logic in which the very structure of reality would dissolve into chaos, but to an infinite regress into higher- dimensional spaces that has the capacity to hold and order an infinity of parallel timelines.  Indeed, this infinite regress has every characteristic that we traditionally attribute to "God" including: a) eternalness, b) the power of creation, c) ontological supremacy, d) omnipresence, e) omniscience, f) omnipotence, and g) utter benignity.  The scientific logic behind this can be explored in a future thread if desired.  For now, note that the above overview of divine causation affirms the key Biblical themes of prophecy, miracles, free-will, and the utter transcendence of God.

Since multiple timelines are inherent to the mutability of the past, some might object that this conflicts with the message of Hebrews 9:27 that men die (and live) once.  But this confuses the changing details of our one life and death with the essential nature of our life, an essential nature transcendent to time as per our creation in the image of God.  In this regard, the "fall" (i.e. the spiritual death that brings physical death) is an unnatural fixedness to the past in which mistakes and entropic damage accumulate faster than they can be repaired via changes to the past.

In regard to scriptural support for mutability of the past, the first things to note are the passages of Ecclesiastes 12:14, I Corinthians 4:5, and Hebrews 4:13 which affirm the omniscience of God by telling us that nothing is hidden from God, and that He will bring every deed into judgement.  None the less, Isaiah 25:16 tells us point blank that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  Sure, I'm taking a verse literally that most take poetically.  But this just begs the question of whether God can change the past so that a person's troubles (and sins) are so thoroughly expunged from the fabric of reality that they "never happened in the first place."  In direct support of this, the very next verse tells us, "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind," an affirmation of a change so deep that even our memory of the past is affected.  Job 11:6 further affirms this when Zophar tells Job that God has forgotten some of his sins.

An equally great but slightly more obscure affirmation of the mutability of the past is inherent to the prophecy of Nineveh's destruction in the book of Jonah, a situation in which a prophecy that failed to come true was canonized in scripture.  The key issue is that an unconditional prophecy was canceled because the people repented.  A proper interpretation that honors the transcendence of God would be that God saw the destruction He wrought on one timeline and spun off a new timeline when the people repented.  With a conditional prophecy we could assume a single version of history with two prophesied outcomes, something that would satisfy the carnal mind.  But with an unconditional prophecy, the only alternative to parallel timelines is to assume that God lied or that Jonah was a false prophet.

Parallel timelines are also the perfect explanation for the narrative discrepancies between the various books of the New Testament.  Because the mundane mind assumes that there is only one version of history, skeptics are forever putting Christians on the defensive by highlighting the near-impossibility of integrating these divergent narratives into a single sequence of events.  On the other hand, if we remember that the Crucifixion/resurrection is the very focal point through which all versions of history must flow if universal redemption is true, we can jettison the apologetic contortions.  Indeed nothing could more honor the reality of God made flesh, than a scenario in which Jesus so thoroughly welded and sorted the myriad alternative timelines of humanity, that the New Testament could bring together the wisdom of numerous timelines due to the transcendent presence of Jesus at the very heart of it.

Likewise, we have conflicting prophecies from the entire Bible between "end-time" scenarios of total destruction, small remnants surviving, and multitudes praising the glory of God, with the book of Revelation being a perfect microcosm of these divergent scenarios.  From the perspective of the carnal mind, these prophecies are hopelessly contradictory.  From the perspective of the carnal mind wrestling with the Truth of Spirit, we have faith that the Bible is true but then falsify it by with contorted eschatologies that attempt to string these prophecies together in a way that was never intended.  From the perspective of the Spirit, we honor a God who transcends not just a single version of history, but the entirety of all versions of history that could ever exist.  A God so transcendent, He can afford to let humans have free-will, and so loving as to create as many timelines as needed for all to be saved.

Viewed from this perspective, the conflict between salvation by grace and by faith dissolves once we realize that an omnipotent God can by grace spin off as many versions of history as necessary until a person finds faith in God.  Likewise, the nominally eternal damnation that might exist from a mundane perspective is trumped by the creation of parallel timelines transcendent to mundane time.  In this regard, the lake of fire is nothing but the innumerable timelines a person could go through for "the ages of the ages" until they turn to God.  Indeed, even Adolph Hitler and Genghis Khan can be trivially forgiven if on some alternate version of history they surrender their heart to God and choose a different life.  With this, consider the demand by a skeptic of UR for scriptural affirmation of the following:

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

For certain, each of these can be affirmed by quoting the appropriate verses of the Bible, but it can be like a heated battle if each camp feels that the other is systematically misinterpreting the Bible.  By contrast, if we can show that the Bible systematically affirms an omnipotent God actively creating parallel timelines, this entire set of issues dissolve into nothingness.  A future thread will show how the Bible systematically affirms the transcendent cosmic destiny that must exist if time-symmetric causation is for real.  For now, I invite scriptural discussion both pro and con for the concept of trans-temporal salvation just presented.

:icon_flower:

I vote CON!   :eek:

Trans-temporal salvation... is that what I just (sort of) ...read?  :help:

:omg:  WOW! ...let me rephrase that, ...WHEW! :heat:  What a mouthful!   :mshock:

When I was a young man (40+years ago -- old fart now!)... my sister had a boyfriend (maybe it was YOU in another "time line" :dunno:)... who figured to impress others extensively with his knowledge, but as it turned out, ...most of the people he spoke to, didn't pay much attention to him, ...for he lacked one thing in all he "knew"...

HOW to COMMUNICATE!  :sigh:

I am a pro-musician, and have continuously made my livelihood as one for over 40yrs... (still do!)

This post reminds me of the "hot" JAZZ musicians who THINK they are better players than I,  ...but who sit and watch ME make MONEY, as they criticize and mock what I do... :rolleye:  (while they spend THEIR money, which pays MY paycheck) :pointlaugh: 

Your wordings are to say the least, ...confusing... and "word-wise" go from New York to Los Angeles and back, just to "cross the street"!

To begin with you mention several things which Biblically speaking, are IMAGINARY (possibly due to "multiple STARGATE episode syndrome")... and in an attempt as a FINITE to gain INFINITE DIVINE perspective, which is (finitely impossible), your words, often trip and stumble over themselves... 

Forgive me bro, ...I'm just your run of the mill, uneducated (I did get to and thru, the 12th grade) DING-DONG musician... but ...sometimes I ain't speak right...

However... continuing on...

Trans-temporal Salvation... is an UNBIBLICAL topic... a coulda-woulda-shoulda kind of thing...  :sigh:

You are welcome to envision the History of Mankind to have been a scenario which encompassed mulitple possibilities and "timelines" but regardless,

The fact remains that the Scriptures DO promote PREDESTINATION (Rom 9:11 / Eph 2:10), and the DO promote a "that's the way it is" teaching, as GOD has noted (and He is ETERNALLY TRUTHFUL)... that He DECLARED the END, from the BEGINNING (Is 46:10-11)... which means there are NO... "coulda's... NO "woulda's... NO "shoulda's... and NO "Transa-temporala Salvationa's"   :mnah: 

Which if TRUE, ...would mean that HE within HIS WORK, also CHANGES or fluxuates (Mal 3:6) which HE does NOT... 

And your proposal further theorizes that WORD bears false witness in that it also floats upon that same sea of fluxuation... (if there are in fact MULTIPLE possibilities or timelines) as SCRIPTURE states JESUS CHRIST is the SAME, yesterday today and for ever (Heb 13:8)

You endeavor to replace the statements made by the Almighty with contrived theories which have no basis in reality... nor can be proven to be so... and are found rubbing shoulders, in the company of EVOLUTION, and its "POSSIBILITIES"...

The proposal that something (anything) COULD HAVE happened as opposed to what ACTUALLY HAPPENED, ...is IMAGINARY, ...not REALITY...

Saying in essence, that what IS WRITTEN, in fact... fluxuates and is NOT TRUTHFUL, rather is just one of MYRIADS of possible outcomes which GOD chose to be so in this "timeline"...  :thumbdown:

YOU propose in THEORY:  Adam "could've" obeyed... but,
SCRIPTURE SAYS:   HE DID NOT... (Gen 3:6)

The proposal that "he could've obeyed" is FICTIONAL and CONTRARY to that which is stated in GOD's WORD... which DOES NOT CHANGE!

The TRUTH ...IS...  He DID NOT OBEY... the LIE ...IS... that He "could've"...

REALITY IS... what actually TOOK PLACE!   :dontknow:  NOT what "could've" taken place...

To propose alternatives as do you in this lengthy unfounded THEORY, is FICTIONAL... and IRRELEVANT...  :msealed:

Because it would be an extensive and exhaustive work which would involve massive amounts of my time to note all IMAGINARY portions within it... I'll leave the INTELLECTUAL crowd to entertain themselves with your post...

Concluding this response with this thought... SIMPLIFY... then you shall have the best chance to communicate to the most people...  :mwink:

I do SINCERELY  :giveheart: wish you UNDERSTANDING, ...and suggest that maybe a hiatus from sci-fi would be helpful in gaining it...

It's not unbiblical WillieH, I actually believed in Trans-Temperal Salvation prior to Universal Salvation based on biblical principles. Before you say it is unbiblical, you need to demonstrate how it isn't and refute the position properly.

Hi Steward of the Word,

QuoteSurprise, it isn't a new approach to biblical universalism. This is how I interpreted Origen viewed reality just without the scientific terms we know today. I actually expanded on this view a lot here in Tentmaker.

:Oops: 

I was not aware of your own writings in this area, and vaguely remember Origen's viewpoint but had forgotten it years ago.  I should have been more cautious with the title.   I'd like to see the threads where you discussed this, can you post some links.  Based on your response in the Hitler thread, and the response from willieH in this thread, I'm guessing that it had little overall impact on the discussion of UR.  Is this true?  I hope it will be different this time, for the logic of trans-temporal redemption is second only to the power of Love to bring mainstream Christianity to the truth of UR, and given what is happening in the areas of war, murder, and abortion, we will need every advantage.  Perhaps we can work together and approach this idea from angles that will have broader appeal.

QuoteI have always believed that God gives us an answer to prayer when done out of sincere motives, and all my life as a child I had very strong faith in the power of God to show me things that I may not understand at the time, but it would come back to remembrance. Many years ago when I was 13, my cousin and I taught Scripture and other biblical concepts. One day as we were in intense prayer, one of the questions we asked God was concerning the concept of infinity. All of a sudden both Blayne (my cousin) and myself felt light headed and then we saw something like reality just rip before us and we saw layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of reality bundled before us. We had no idea what we were looking at but the information we saw things which even to this day I have a hard time explaining. Then we both had headaches for the rest of the day as our mind was processing all the information we were seeing. At the time, I had no idea of quantum, or folded membranes, except what we were told in Star Trek. Even to this day when I talk to my cousin, we both agree whatever happened to us in my room praying to God is still unexplainable but I knew that what I saw was more than this reality.

You had a direct prophetic revelation, and like always the prophet is not heeded. :sigh: And thank you for sharing what you wrote when you were 13, wisdom from the young. I'm happy to see that you appear to have come through relatively unscathed.  Philip K Dick had a similar revelation that was so intense he wound up spending some time in the nuthouse.  Going back further, Thomas Aquinas had a monumental revelation near the end of his life.  He stopped working on his magnum opus, said that everything he ever wrote was trash, went home to settle up his affairs, and died a few weeks later.  Perhaps now that we are getting closer to the Day of the Lord there is more capacity to receive and integrate direct revelation.  I was lucky in having more of an indirect revelation in which the Holy Spirit was able to guide me deeper into logic of quantum reality, but still it has been a rough journey for the power of God can grip the deepest part of our soul when we really invite Him in.  :bigGrin:

well, I'm game.  And those that know me know that I'm not game for much--for instance, I do not believe in evolution, nor that there will ever be any proof of it.  But I'm willing to entertain this theory--at least until I can understand it, rofl.

Like many, I've noticed that the beginning seems to start in the middle.


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

--Gen 1



Now the God I know would never create anything formless and empty and covered with darkness.  So I always find myself asking--what happened to bring this about?

And, we see more evidence that something happened--



28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

--Gen 1


So, does this fit in somehow to your theory?

Quote from: willieH on August 14, 2008, 03:24:51 AM
I vote CON!   :eek:

Trans-temporal salvation... is that what I just (sort of) ...read?  :help:

:omg:  WOW! ...let me rephrase that, ...WHEW! :heat:  What a mouthful!   :mshock:

When I was a young man (40+years ago -- old fart now!)... my sister had a boyfriend (maybe it was YOU in another "time line" :dunno:)... who figured to impress others extensively with his knowledge, but as it turned out, ...most of the people he spoke to, didn't pay much attention to him, ...for he lacked one thing in all he "knew"...

HOW to COMMUNICATE!  :sigh:

I am a pro-musician, and have continuously made my livelihood as one for over 40yrs... (still do!)

This post reminds me of the "hot" JAZZ musicians who THINK they are better players than I,  ...but who sit and watch ME make MONEY, as they criticize and mock what I do... :rolleye:  (while they spend THEIR money, which pays MY paycheck) :pointlaugh: 

Your wordings are to say the least, ...confusing... and "word-wise" go from New York to Los Angeles and back, just to "cross the street"!

To begin with you mention several things which Biblically speaking, are IMAGINARY (possibly due to "multiple STARGATE episode syndrome")... and in an attempt as a FINITE to gain INFINITE DIVINE perspective, which is (finitely impossible), your words, often trip and stumble over themselves... 

Forgive me bro, ...I'm just your run of the mill, uneducated (I did get to and thru, the 12th grade) DING-DONG musician... but ...sometimes I ain't speak right...

However... continuing on...

Trans-temporal Salvation... is an UNBIBLICAL topic... a coulda-woulda-shoulda kind of thing...  :sigh:

You are welcome to envision the History of Mankind to have been a scenario which encompassed mulitple possibilities and "timelines" but regardless,

The fact remains that the Scriptures DO promote PREDESTINATION (Rom 9:11 / Eph 2:10), and the DO promote a "that's the way it is" teaching, as GOD has noted (and He is ETERNALLY TRUTHFUL)... that He DECLARED the END, from the BEGINNING (Is 46:10-11)... which means there are NO... "coulda's... NO "woulda's... NO "shoulda's... and NO "Transa-temporala Salvationa's"   :mnah: 

Which if TRUE, ...would mean that HE within HIS WORK, also CHANGES or fluxuates (Mal 3:6) which HE does NOT... 

And your proposal further theorizes that WORD bears false witness in that it also floats upon that same sea of fluxuation... (if there are in fact MULTIPLE possibilities or timelines) as SCRIPTURE states JESUS CHRIST is the SAME, yesterday today and for ever (Heb 13:8)

You endeavor to replace the statements made by the Almighty with contrived theories which have no basis in reality... nor can be proven to be so... and are found rubbing shoulders, in the company of EVOLUTION, and its "POSSIBILITIES"...

The proposal that something (anything) COULD HAVE happened as opposed to what ACTUALLY HAPPENED, ...is IMAGINARY, ...not REALITY...

Saying in essence, that what IS WRITTEN, in fact... fluxuates and is NOT TRUTHFUL, rather is just one of MYRIADS of possible outcomes which GOD chose to be so in this "timeline"...  :thumbdown:

YOU propose in THEORY:  Adam "could've" obeyed... but,
SCRIPTURE SAYS:   HE DID NOT... (Gen 3:6)

The proposal that "he could've obeyed" is FICTIONAL and CONTRARY to that which is stated in GOD's WORD... which DOES NOT CHANGE!

The TRUTH ...IS...  He DID NOT OBEY... the LIE ...IS... that He "could've"...

REALITY IS... what actually TOOK PLACE!   :dontknow:  NOT what "could've" taken place...

To propose alternatives as do you in this lengthy unfounded THEORY, is FICTIONAL... and IRRELEVANT...  :msealed:

Because it would be an extensive and exhaustive work which would involve massive amounts of my time to note all IMAGINARY portions within it... I'll leave the INTELLECTUAL crowd to entertain themselves with your post...

Concluding this response with this thought... SIMPLIFY... then you shall have the best chance to communicate to the most people...  :mwink:

I do SINCERELY  :giveheart: wish you UNDERSTANDING, ...and suggest that maybe a hiatus from sci-fi would be helpful in gaining it...

peACe...

...willieH  :king:

Geez, WillieH,

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Making me glad that I've always kept it simple around here :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

ROFLOL!!

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Quote from: SOtW on August 14, 2008, 08:54:48 AM
It's not unbiblical WillieH, I actually believed in Trans-Temperal Salvation prior to Universal Salvation based on biblical principles. Before you say it is unbiblical, you need to demonstrate how it isn't and refute the position properly.

The BURDEN of this fantasy is not on me Craig!  I dont NEED to do anything! 

I have already stated that it is ANTI-SCRIPTURAL in proposal, for it notes FLUXUATION in the ALMIGHTY, which the WORD says does NOT CHANGE...

As multiple TIMELINES are proposed to be available... which means that the WORD is put on the defensive by it in so many places, I shudder to note them... defeating such notations as Rom 9:11... for other "timelines" if they are indeed real and accessible... they could have made the outcome of this verse DIFFERENT than is noted...

It also defeats the DECLARATION of GOD ...being the END from the BEGINNING... for if the outcomes are subject to CHANGE, then the DECLARATION becomes subject to those "changes"...

Reducing Him to a mere "forcaster" because of FOREKNOWLEDGE... rather than ALMIGHTY because it comes down like it does, because HE SAID it would...

It is upon either TB or yourself (if you believe it to be so)... to ESTABLISH it... then there is something to REFUTE other than an OPINION...  :dontknow:

Until it is Biblically established, as far as I am concerned (I only speak for myself), it is NOT ESTABLISHED, and isn't worthy to be addressed... something like "refuting" GHOSTS...  It doesn't exist until an existence (not theory) is actually established.

Until then, ...It is no more than, ...more of the same nonsense as EVOLUTION...

If you believe these proposals to be so, then state your case bro... I'll address it if you can establish something other than an UNSCRIPTURAL opinionated theory... which is all it amounts to at present...

And whichever of you decide to do this, please if you would, ...leave out the 25cent words, or it will be ignored, at least by me...  :grin:

You know me by now, but TB does not... I am not impressed with OBESE and inflated NON-COMMUNICATIVE  vocabulary's, ...nor am I prone to continuously look up words in a dictionary, just to have a discussion...  :dontknow:

Show Scripture upon which it is based... and use common/simple terminology in doing so...  :dontknow:

If you or TB, cannot... then it is no more than Stargate-like or Sci-Fi --- imaginations of the mind, and as far as I am concerned,  a purposed DECEPTION and DISTRACTION from the TRUTH which actually, IS in the WORD...

TB earlier, noted that "Parallel Timelines" are part of the ARMOR of GOD!  Please!  :laughing7:  If he can't do any better than that... well...  :grave:

Such imaginary foolishness is NOT in the WORD, and is not therefore, worthy of any further discussion...

willieH: Hi M! :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 15, 2008, 02:29:09 AM

Geez, WillieH,

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Making me glad that I've always kept it simple around here :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

ROFLOL!!

Don't fret none bro!  :laughing7: Here's a "one-liner":  1 - _________   :laughhand:

QuoteThe BURDEN of this fantasy is not on me Craig!  I dont NEED to do anything! 

Then you did not refute it, and therefore you cannot say it is unbiblical. I could say the whole pre-existance thing is fantasy, I don't need to do anything, but I don't. I prove it is not practical or biblical to make the conclusion. Anything else is just your opinion backed up by your belief that you think you know what is fantasy and what is not.

I hold reservations on Trans-Temporal Redemption as True Believer presented it, but it doesn't mean it is unbiblical. I have studied this since my vision at age 13, God is outside Time & Space, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and that means there does not need to be multiple universes of time-space, He can simply change anything from the beginning to end, repeatedly, if that is indeed what God provisioned to do. That is the reality of a CREATED universe of time/space, and a CREATOR who created it can mold it in anyway. We are Linear, He is an Omni. He IS the Beginning and the End, therefore all things Start and End with Him, which means time/space also is within this sphere of influence. God does not ontologically and intrinsically change, but He has changed His mind, intervened, guides steps, etc.

Without demonstrating your disagreement, and making off-cuff comments, you disrespect the person you disagree with who is also your brother in the Lord. Not only do you disrespect them, you do not show them the error of their way so that they may return to all truth. There is a lot wrong with that attitude. It is God's Patience, Kindness and Tolerance which brings repentance, and we are to have these qualities in abundance in order to be effective and productive in the Knowledge of the Truth.

Thanks for understanding and not reacting, but responding.

Quote from: willieH on August 15, 2008, 04:21:46 AM

willieH: Hi M! :hithere:

Don't fret none bro!  :laughing7: Here's a "one-liner":  1 - _________   :laughhand:

Hi WillieH,

I think it's something lost in the semantics.  If I've understood things, they're envisioning more of a chess game, while I think you're envisioning [in what's been said thus far] much more chaos and God running around behind the devil putting out all of his fires one by one in a futile, reactionary way than they're meaning to propose.  I've said similar stuff before, though in the way that I put it I was talking more along the lines of the multi-universe version of Quantum Mechanics rather than viewing our time line as an equator on a globe and God being at the North Pole being able to drop down an infinite number of meridians to intervene as He pleased on our time-line. 

I do see the gray areas that are making you apprehensive of this model, WillieH, but I'm not sure that I've seen a presentation style yet of the Larger Hope that a sufficiently brilliant philosopher somewhere couldn't find fault with, with either finding God too controling or too flippant until the train's about to hit the brick wall, or in some other way finding problems with it.  I'm currently inching towards Ultra-Universalism and for some that type of Universalism raises too many unresolved justice and/or disciplinary and/or humbling issues, while for me, either John 12:31-33 is true or it's not;  either He finished it, or it's to be continued. 

And yet, as someone who taught the Winchesterian form of Universalism for years, I know the arguments that are raised against a "death and glory" type of UR.  That type of reasoning from the Scriptures just isn't solid enough under my feet any more.  Perhaps a year or two down the line further and I'll see things entirely differently than I do right now.  It's still in the back of my mind that all of this is easily explained with Mark chapter 4, but trying to go there right now isn't fruitful enough to my understanding.  All of us are at different stages of growth, and perhaps given another 10 to 20 years we'll all be aghast at what we believed to be the method by which God was acheiving His promises right now.  He's a Journey.

Quote from: willieH on August 15, 2008, 04:15:04 AM
Until it is Biblically established, as far as I am concerned (I only speak for myself), it is NOT ESTABLISHED, and isn't worthy to be addressed... something like "refuting" GHOSTS...  It doesn't exist until an existence (not theory) is actually established.

Hi willie,

I do disagree with your line of reasoning because it cannot be established that God exists just because the bible is around.

What the word says is rather ambiguous since ET believers take their perspective from the same scriptures, we dispute that way of thinking because we do not believe the scriptures mean what is said they say through the manner of intepretation used.

We have faith that the Bible is the word of God and therefore contemplate what it says.  From my point of view I could of remained in the mindset of ET by saying that I do not need to demonstrate a refutation of Universalism,  yet, I did just those things and that actually led me to greater truth.

Just think of all the ET believers that will not even contemplate universalism because they have been taught a way that must be held to at all costs and another way cannot be entertained for fear of losing their soul.

So to just say that something is unbiblical does not determine whether it is or isn't.

take care

Paul

I've been trying to move sideways all night.

I want out of this timeline. :happy3:

Hi willieH,

QuoteI REALLY... REALLY, do not mean to offend you new brother... but   :blahgreen: :lazy:  ...Just kidn!   :icon_jokercolor:  If you take offense at this response, ...then you do,  and there is nothing I can do other than to note that I mean NONE of this response as offensive to YOU... but to your WORDS... well, ...they speak (or dont speak) for themselves...

Willie, I'll be the first to admit that your heart-centered embrace of UR is spot on.  When it comes to mental doctrines, however, I ask that you beware of handed-down thinking dressed up as Christian theology and have more respect for those who are working on the intellectual aspects of Christian theology, for its says in Jeremiah that God will write his law on both our hearts and our minds.  In particular, I feel that you are regurgitating mundane axioms and handed down beliefs, and to slightly misquote your own words: "I do SINCERELY  :giveheart: wish you UNDERSTANDING," ...and suggest that maybe a hiatus from sci-fi mundane thinking would be helpful in gaining it..."

QuoteWhen I was a young man (40+years ago -- old fart now!)... my sister had a boyfriend (maybe it was YOU in another "time line" :dunno:)... who figured to impress others extensively with his knowledge, but as it turned out,

...most of the people he spoke to, didn't pay much attention to him, ...for he lacked one thing in all he...
HOW to COMMUNICATE!  :sigh:

Forgive me bro, ...I'm just your run of the mill, uneducated (I did get to and thru, the 12th grade) DING-DONG musician... but ...sometimes I ain't speak right...

Concluding this response with this thought... SIMPLIFY... then you shall have the best chance to communicate to the most people...  :mwink:

You really don't know me well enough to make the kind of comparison implied here.  I am not here to impress people, I am here to share what I have learned and inspire people if they are so inclined.  The fact of the matter is that I have a passion for knowledge to begin with, and on top of that have been so inspired by the majesty of what God has planned for mankind that I have willingly devoted years of my life to a scientific/rational understanding of how salvation occurs.  None the less, I am here and ask your help simplifying my message, for the "run of the mill" people like yourself are the salt of the Earth and the strength of God's right arm in the establishment of His dominion. 

This is a critical issue, for there are hordes of PhDs and ThDs respectively in science and theology who receive full-time salaries and institutional support to perpetuate the destructive handed-down traditions of mankind, and there will be no way for people with intellectual gifts like myself to challenge these institutional forces unless there is an entire army of people has been raised up in the Spirit of Jesus Christ to say enough with these destructive traditions.

QuoteHowever... continuing on...

To begin with you mention several things which Biblically speaking, are IMAGINARY (possibly due to "multiple STARGATE episode syndrome")... and in an attempt as a FINITE to gain INFINITE DIVINE perspective, which is (finitely impossible), your words, often trip and stumble over themselves...

If you will note in the post you quoted, I said that time-symmetric causation leads to an infinite regress into higher-dimensional spaces.  This is the exact opposite of the finite trying to gain an infinite perspective, for it is an explicit admission that a self-consistent system of logic scales from the finite to the infinite.  Because we are created in the image of God, we can understand this logic, but it is formally an admission of the transcendence of God, and as such, a formal surrender of the rational mind to the existence of a transcendent God.

QuoteTrans-temporal Salvation[/color]... is an UNBIBLICAL topic... a coulda-woulda-shoulda kind of thing...  :sigh:

You are welcome to envision the History of Mankind to have been a scenario which encompassed mulitple possibilities and "timelines" but regardless,

The fact remains that the Scriptures DO promote PREDESTINATION (Rom 9:11 / Eph 2:10), and the DO promote a "that's the way it is" teaching, as GOD has noted (and He is ETERNALLY TRUTHFUL)... that He DECLARED the END, from the BEGINNING (Is 46:10-11)... which means there are NO... "coulda's... NO "woulda's... NO "shoulda's... and NO "Transa-temporala Salvationa's"   :mnah:

This is where we get to some really serious issues for the quoting of these passages in refutation of multiple timelines is both logically flawed and one of the worst ever cases of selectively quoting scripture to prove a belief of the mundane mind.  In regard to the second issue, I reference Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32, Malachi 4:5-6, Revelation chapters 2 and 3, and Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31.  All of these prophecies are of an unambiguous if/else logic in which the Lord warns of an explicit bifurcation of destiny between scenarios in which people correct the error of their ways and/or turn their hearts to God, and scenarios in which they don't.  Moreover, the warnings of Joel and Malachi refer explicitly to the "Day of the Lord," and the warnings of Revelation to Laodicea arguably so.  And unless the Bible is deceiving humanity into believing they have a choice when they really don't, your idea of simple linear predestination makes a mockery of the most critical warnings of the entire Bible.  In regard to the logical error, I quote Steward of the Word, a person who has had direct prophetic revelation of this deeper reality:

QuoteI notice a problem that people have, they think in limited understanding by leaning on their own understanding of how things should go. It makes sense right, God is in control, He knows every choice we are going to make therefore it was the only choice we were going to make. That is linear thinking that only an finite mind can understand. People think that we have no choice, that the path we took is only an illusion of choice because that was what we were going to do anyway.

Does it boggle people's mind to think that God thinks in quantum and God knows EVERY choice to EVERY situation He has presented regardless if that choice and situation ever came up? In otherwords, God has provision for left and right, up and down, inward, outward, and beyond choice we possibly could have made or will make and that it is not set in stone until we actually have made the choice? Does it boggle people's mind that with all those organic choices that have EVERY path possible, that God knows all things in order to guide our steps?

In short, the references to God's foreknowledge and the predestination implicit therein have no bearing at all on whether or not multiple timelines are valid or not for the simple reason God can have foreknowledge of the entire array of alternate destinies, and can preordain the possible outcomes for every possible set of choices that the whole of humanity might make.  The distinction between the two forms of predestination is, however, very significant.  In either case, God would be transcendent to time as you claim, but with simple linear predestination, there is no logic whatsoever for this transcendence to be anything more than Newtonian clockwork universe one dimension higher than the Newtonian clockwork at the core of scientific materialism.  By contrast, the holistic predestination of a densely populated array of alternate timelines is a level of transcendence so great that God can preordain whatever He wants while at the same time allowing humanity a great deal of free-will, a freedom by which the Bride made in His image could willingly heed God's call, and Glorify Him by willingly birthing the full Beauty and Majesty of what He preordaines.

QuoteWhich if TRUE, ...would mean that HE within HIS WORK, also CHANGES or fluxuates (Mal 3:6) which HE does NOT... 

This is your imagination.  To start, the changelessness of God does not in any way preclude God unchangeably committing to a mundane if/else scenario; to think that this is precluded is a very narrow way of thinking.  And given the explicit if/else prophecies regarding the Day of the Lord, it should be clear that an apocalypse of the heart can substitute for an apocalypse of the flesh with regard to the interpretation of Revelation and other "end-time" prophecies.  In addition, a God that partakes of an infinite number of space-time dimensions can not possibly change.  What changes is the speed with which we individually and collectively come into the fullness of what God ordained for us by our free-will choice to heed the call of God or fight against it.  Note also an infinitely transcendent God can embrace the changeable within the unchangeable, and in direct reflection of this Exodus 3:14 is equally translated "I am who I am" and "I am becoming who I am becoming."  By contrast, a god of simple linear predestination is a God of finite dimensionality.  Specifically, it is a false god of five spacetime dimensions that could be changed by forces of five or more dimensions.

QuoteAnd your proposal further theorizes that WORD bears false witness in that it also floats upon that same sea of fluxuation... (if there are in fact MULTIPLE possibilities or timelines) as SCRIPTURE states

Willie, Jonah 3:4 says "On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."  This quote is from Young's literal translation.  It is an unconditional prophecy that did not come true from a mundane perspective.  Deuteronomy is clear that a prophecy that does not come true is the mark of false prophet.  You can not quote a general scriptural principle of a destructive unconditional prophecy being canceled by repentance because there is no direct scriptural support for any such principle, only the indirect support for such from the explicitly conditional prophecies, and from the canonization of the prophecy at hand.  What I propose honors the message of spontaneous grace being generated by an act of repentance, and it does so in a way that affirms the truthfulness of this prophecy via the logic of multiple timelines.  By contrast, the simple linear predestination that you affirm misses this crucial message and cannot in any way explain the failed prophecy.  And then you have the nerve of accusing me of theorizing that the Word bears false witness when in fact this is your sin not mine.

QuoteJESUS CHRIST[/b][/i][/color] is the SAME, yesterday today and for ever (Heb 13:8)

Saying in essence, that what IS WRITTEN, in fact... fluxuates and is NOT TRUTHFUL, rather is just one of MYRIADS of possible outcomes which GOD chose to be so in this "timeline"...  :thumbdown:

YOU propose in THEORY:  Adam "could've" obeyed... but,
SCRIPTURE SAYS:   HE DID NOT... (Gen 3:6)

The proposal that "he could've obeyed" is FICTIONAL and CONTRARY to that which is stated in GOD's WORD... which DOES NOT CHANGE!

The TRUTH ...IS...  He DID NOT OBEY... the LIE ...IS... that He "could've"...

First, the literal translation is "Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages," and since "ages" does not mean forever, you are misquoting the Bible.  Second, since this verse says ages, not ages of the ages, we have no particular reason to apply it to anything except mundane time in which case the quote is totally irrelevant to the subject at hand.  Third, please notice in my second post that I said that one of the reasons I accepted the logic of alternate timelines was because of Philip K Dick's perception that the entire process of sideways-in-time movement was anchored in the cross, something that honors the Lordship of Jesus in the deepest of ways.

For certain, the infinite transcendence of the Father precludes any form of change, but to believe that Jesus (the Son) or the Bible (the Word) must be exactly the same on an entirely different version of history is extremely presumptuous.  Indeed, what you are trying to do is make the words of the Bible be a constraint on the sovereignty of the Father to manage each timeline in the way He sees fit.  This is totally backwards, for the purpose of the Bible is to be a testimony to the sovereignty of God, not a constraint thereon.

QuoteYou endeavor to replace the statements made by the Almighty with contrived theories which have no basis in reality... nor can be proven to be so... and are found rubbing shoulders, in the company of EVOLUTION, and its "POSSIBILITIES"...

This is again your imagination.  In actuality, the logic of time-symmetric causation affirms intelligent-design within the context of old-Earth creationism, and affirms young-Earth creationism as a deeper reality outside the context of linear-time.  In regard to Darwinian evolution, it is the ideological equivalent of a hydrogen bomb.

QuoteThe proposal that something (anything) COULD HAVE happened as opposed to what ACTUALLY HAPPENED, ...is IMAGINARY, ...not REALITY...

REALITY IS... what actually TOOK PLACE!   :dontknow:  NOT what "could've" taken place...

Your focus on concrete REALITY is the foolishness of the mundane mind pretending to be wisdom.  Are you going to go so far as to deny the spirit realm?  Or in modern scientific terms, deny the reality of "complex- numbered reality?"  Wake up, you are trying to deny the wisdom of the ages.

QuoteGOD has PURPOSED that REVELATION be withheld... and that is to let MAN, in his PRIDE, show himSELF... that he... IN THAT PRIDE... will conjure up IMAGINARY and FALSE EXPLANATIONS for that which he (as a veiled finite) has NO VALID EXPLANATION... IMAGINATION, ...in action...

And before you start on about the finiteness of man as an excuse for the logic of God being veiled, please note that John 14:26 and 16:12-15 are explicit about the Holy Spirit unveiling the secrets of God and revealing all things.  I might not have all the details right, but Origen, Philip K Dick, Steward of the Word, Joyful1, Martin, and myself have all received inspiration of some sort or another along these lines.  Please be open to it.

Origen believes that man is a rational being. He believed that man has a freedom of will, that is, the freedom to make choices in life  choosing between good and evil, right and wrong, whether knowledgable of the decisions consequence or not. He believed that this is essential in order to have a real relationship with God which is not forced but organic in nature. He saw the wicked abundant who died in their wickedness, and at the same time he believed in Universal Salvation, and Universal Reconciliation. His conclusion of the matter is aionios kolasis for the wicked is that they live the same life over and over and over until we have taken the path of humility and repentance, essentially being presented repeatedly the choice between path of destruction and the path of Life until they had chosen the path of Life. He made it clear not to confuse it with Eastern Reincarnation and Greek Soul migration (Greek version of reincarnation) which he absolutely rejected.  Origen said concerning this, "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (ibid., 13:1:46–53 [24])."

The philosophy: To understand the ontological nature of why Trans-Temporal Redemption (as coined by True Believer) is possible, you actually need to address an abundance of issues which include the ontological nature of God (love, justice, integrity, honor, holiness, omni-everything, Creator, etc.), the soteriology of a Universal Salvation (all mankind saved), the ontological nature of man (the rational mind, the freedom of will, capability intellect, encompassing emotion, the instinct etc.),  the problem of evil, etc.

Essentially, Origen's, True Beliver's, and myself propose a dynamic theory of creation which believes in the Absolute Sovereignty of God, Universal Salvation of all mankind, and at the same time retaining the integrity of a rational/emotional man able to make decisions (free-will). This dynamic view is spherical (Origen and my view), multi-layered (True Believer's view) or both, concerning creation. It is like a three-dimensional object not limited to points but still beginning and ending with God (this is in comparison to the static linear view in which life is symmetrically myopic pre-scripted and pre-planned from point a to point b). The dynamic idea creation is fashioned in such a way that it remains organic, causal, and free, and at the same time result in the one conclusion God had pre-destined for all mankind. An impossibility for man to conceive or comprehend to make work, but possible for God. 

Essentially, if one believes that man is rational and emotional creature, then they have the ability to make rational and emotional choices in life. If a man has choice, then those choices have consequences. If choices have consequences, then how do you solve the dilemma of negative consequence without destroying the integrity of creation and having a sincere and wholesome choice resulting in a positive consequence.

The science: Origen did not have scientific theories of how time and space worked, he had the dilemma and philosophy to solve the dilemma while staying within the confines of Biblical Christianity. The philosophy had no scientific support until the observations of Isaac Newton, Niels Bohr, Max Plank, Albert Einstein and the like. Quantum Mechanics and various other theories based on observations, hypothesis, and math, can prove a space/time continuum and the possibility of an immunity to cause and effect outside space/time  especially if there are more than 4 dimensions to the universe, which mathematically there are at least 10 to infinite dimensions.

The idea of re-living the same life over and over faced with the same dilemma's but choosing differently becomes possible. The idea of multiple time-lines in which the same life finally achieves a pre-destined goal end becomes possible. Scientific support to a philosophical answer to a dilemma while maintaining biblical and scriptural accuracy, becomes possible.

QuoteYou really don't know me well enough to make the kind of comparison implied here.  I am not here to impress people, I am here to share what I have learned and inspire people if they are so inclined.  The fact of the matter is that I have a passion for knowledge to begin with, and on top of that have been so inspired by the majesty of what God has planned for mankind that I have willingly devoted years of my life to a scientific/rational understanding of how salvation occurs.  None the less, I am here and ask your help simplifying my message, for the "run of the mill" people like yourself are the salt of the Earth and the strength of God's right arm in the establishment of His dominion.

This is a critical issue, for there are hordes of PhDs and ThDs respectively in science and theology who receive full-time salaries and institutional support to perpetuate the destructive handed-down traditions of mankind, and there will be no way for people with intellectual gifts like myself to challenge these institutional forces unless there is an entire army of people has been raised up in the Spirit of Jesus Christ to say enough with these destructive traditions.

Amen!  :cloud9: I have been saying this for years and finally the pendulum has swung. Until recently, there has not been many intellectual personalities here in Tentmaker Forums and as a result there has been a constant battle to establish that the Gift of Knowledge, Gift of Wisdom, and the Ministry Giftings are actual Spiritual giftings of God; that there are those who are rational and intellectual and abiding by the Spirit who are just as essential in the Body of Christ as those who are not.  From what I observed, SeekerSA, Paul Hazelwood, martincisneros, Nathan (a new comer), and you bring a balance to what sometimes can be an overly emotional forum.

The amazing part I find, is that the rational ones have the easiest time to agree to disagree, discuss, debate and argue doctrine without become snared by personal differences and making judgments against one another. It is refreshing.

QuoteI'm guessing that it had little overall impact on the discussion of UR.  Is this true? 

Yes, and No. There are people here like Davo, Sarah, Joyful, and others who know I talked about this a lot in the past. Most of all my posts concerning this are now deleted or put into a folder that will never see light of day.

Over the last few years, there were a few members (some self-declared mystics) who made it their mandate to make the perception of 'knowledge' the source of evil, asking for proof meant you had little faith, questioning the logic and reasonings of someone's belief meant you were unloving and cold, and that emotionalism is somehow in fact a synonym for Godly spiritualism. As a result, I built up many walls to protect myself and developing (redeveloping in some cases) some insecurities and short-tempered responses to those who would reject me because I knew what I was talking about philosophically, scripturally, rationally and theologically. I do not believe in mysticism, I believe the mystery of God is revealed to any who ask for wisdom and knowledge concerning it and those who have the knowledge are called to teach it.

Be forewarned most of these people did not leave the forum, so you will be battling a negative stigma which should never have been there in the first place, but it is here none the less. I also admit due to my defenses my reactions to some of those members did not help the situation. You will be battling a familiar spirit as a result if these outbursts. That is, people will assume you are me and react to you as if you were me, thinking they will get the same result in which they can accuse you of wrong doing should you react as I did in some of these cases. Already, you have already had to suffer through an assumption of your motivation, just because you are learned.

In any case, unlike the past, there are now some very rational individuals here who can support or discuss with a civil attitude, intellectual discussions without resorting to character defamation and ad hominem attacks and other fallacy win their 'argument' for the sake of keeping their opinions.

Steward, Martin,

I do not believe there is any substantial difference between multiple timelines and multiple universes.  In either case we are dealing with the multiplicity of "complex-numbered reality."  I sort of affirm the sphericity of reality at each finite level of dimensionality as seen by Origen and Steward, albeit of a Mobius nature with God not at the "North Pole," but transcendent to the "Mobius sphere."

What I add that is new is the idea of a regress into infinite dimensional spaces (i.e. ontological layering), such that the Father is infinitely transcendent.  Mainstream science thinks that reality can be modeled with 10 or 11 dimensions, but this is not true.  When one applies quantum wave/particle duality to the definition of "entropy," it becomes obvious that there is an infinite number of dimensions.

I am really grateful to be here,  :cloud9: thank you both (and joyful1) for your support, and am glad to hear the pendulum is swinging in regard to intellectual work.  I'm open to deep scriptural discussion to make sure that we stay on track, and feel that our combined expertise will be much greater than the sum of the parts.  My next major post will be an indirect proof of time-symmetric causation via the message of a transcendent cosmic destiny hidden in the Bible.

P.S.

SeekerSA, Don't feel too bad about your 21 kids on all the other timelines.  My wife and both relied on hormonal contraceptives before we met during our age of ignorance.  It is a widespread deception that the pill is not properly labeled a contraceptive/abortifacient.  Thank God, God is sufficiently transcendent to straighten this mess out.

Quote from: True Believer on August 15, 2008, 12:28:42 AM

QuoteTo be clear, I hold that "trans-temporal redemption" has aspects which make it a valid possibility concerning aionios kolasis. I hold my reservations because of the complex nature of quantum reality.

I first learned about time-symmetric causation when studying quantum reality and only later saw the degree to which it is supported by the Bible.  So I'm really interested in hearing the nature of your reservations to see if there is some way we can deepen or clarify the multilayered reality that we both see in our own way.  Also, when you say "complex" do you mean complicated or complex numbered?  Maybe you can comment about this in the other thread.

Let me rephrase.

My reservations are due to the some very unnecessary complicated solutions which can be solved by simple solution such as the Resurrection of the dead, both the righteous (in Christ) and the wicked as a direct result of the life, death and resurrection of the Son of God. It is like the Gap theory is an unnecessary doctrinal theory to explain the age of the earth being billions of years old, but at the same time created only 6000 years ago and at the same time justify the Lucifer mythos.

The biggest reason for my reservation is the pivotal role that Jesus Christ holds in TTR, it almost nullifies the purpose of His incarnation if perfection is achieved by free-will choice over the span of multiple manifestations of the same lifetime through multiple universe/timelines. Now I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.

In a nutshell however, I hold it as a possible option for the wicked in their resurrection to experience a Trans-Temporal Redemption, while the righteous are reign infinitely transcendent with the Father and the Son.

QuoteI sort of affirm the sphericity of reality at each finite level of dimensionality as seen by Origen and Steward, albeit of a Mobius nature with God not at the "North Pole," but transcendent to the "Mobius sphere."

That is what I actually believe also. I believe in a form of typology. That Scripture isn't actually a history book, but something a large parable concerning present reality. In otherwords, everything is 'NOW' to a transcendent God concerning all of creation and it's complexity. Therefore everything in Scripture is actually talking about a 'NOW' which a transcendent God would describe.

Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of
the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

Many theologians say this happened in the past, I have always said this is a present actualization all creation. Spiritually the earth is still presently without form and void, and darkness is upon the face of the deep. A transcendent God still moves over the face of the waters.

Apply this to Trans-Temporal Redemption. The reason it is without form and is still void, is because men face choices constantly that alter everything in a constant cause and effect, God is constantly interceding and guiding men trans-temporally to face these choices again and again altering everything through constant cause and effect. Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire... ...let there be Light.

Genesis 1:3-4
And God said, "Let there be light" and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

There is so much that could be said...

On a side note. If everything is "Now" to God, there is no past or future, only present since He is transcendent. A trick question... ...How many days did it actually take God to create everything? It actually took only one day (a day/night) and that same day is described seven times. Perhaps this is the ultimate realization of Trans-Temporal Redemption.

QuoteNow I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.

Could somebody please explain to me how this works, practically speaking?  Do you mean that while I make choice A, my doppelgangers are simultaneously making choice B, C, D, and E in multiple universes?

And, then what?  The best choice wins?  Do we (I and my doppelgangers) all die at the same time?  Are we all resurrected at the same time?  Or just the best one resurrected?  Or what?

I need practical info here.


And, if this were true, with all these chances, why is Paul begging people to be reconciled to God?



2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

No one here wants to be deceived.

No one wants to stumble spiritually because of the potential idol of intelligence or education.

No one wants to be "blown about by every wind of doctrine" that comes around.

A few want to explore the subject further because of the hope that it offers.

If the true doctrine of Christ can be more fully explained by this, specifically the way in which God will save all men, then I'd like to try to understand this.

A simpler explanation framed by scripture is essential. Is that possible?  :icon_flower:

QuoteDo we (I and my doppelgangers) all die at the same time?

Most likely not. The Molly of our reality was safely typing a message at home while another Molly got killed by a truck while crossing the street. And thereby forcing the truckdriver overthinking the fragility of life. The atheist trucker now reads the Bible at the truckstops instead of hiring some entertainment.

Quote from: joyful1 on August 15, 2008, 01:21:19 PM
No one here wants to be deceived.

No one wants to stumble spiritually because of the potential idol of intelligence or education.

No one wants to be "blown about by every wind of doctrine" that comes around.

I think that isn't the goal of none of teh writer in this thread.
I was aware of multi timelines but never thought about it in connection to religion.
But a 2 months ago I never heard about UR either.....

What we can high-end science is for God boringly simple.

---

I'm not choosing sides but if I understood Willie's reply correctly I have a question along that line.
Let's keep it simple and just look at the genealogy. If things are totally scrambled then for example David possibly never have been born because his pregnant mother fell of a cliff.
Does God guard/control (sorry Willie....) all timelines in such a way they are forced into one Bible concept?
If not there are many different Bibles too?

Secondly, while I'm not trying to judge God, I find a a bit odd way of handling things.
An example explains this best.
Say in our timeline someone has lived that came very very close to Jesus. God hardly couldn't wait to get him into Heaven.
Unfortunately, because there are so many timelines that person also is thief in timeline 2, rapist in 3 and a murderer in 3.
Doesn't this timeline stuff cause more sin than just one timeline?

 :laughing7:   wabbit! you never cease to amaze me!

True Believer states at the very beginning of his posts:

The theme of this post is that mutability of the past is the very mechanism of salvation, and that if people do not find salvation in one version of history they can and will eventually find it in another.

I happen to believe that all men are saved in the Lake of Fire which consists of God Himself/ His Word.

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire
Isaiah 30:27
...his tongue is a consuming fire.

Without launching into the many scriptures that come to mind in support of TB's theory, I'd like to see this "mechanism" described by TB framed in Scripture.

He states further that:

This post will give a superficial introduction to the logic of time-symmetric causation and its overall relation to the Bible.  After that, it will show that mutability of the past is solidly rooted in the Bible, and resolve several Biblical paradoxes.

In dealing with such an all inclusive subject, I don't want to further complicate things without first establishing the framework. That's all.  :)

Quote from: joyful1 on August 15, 2008, 02:48:06 PM
:laughing7:   wabbit! you never cease to amaze me!

I heard that before.
And I still have no clue it's positive or negative   :icon_joker:
I don't see my post as off-topic. It's directly related to the parts quoted by you.

Wabbit, You said: Doesn't this timeline stuff cause more sin than just one timeline?

Where sin abounded, grace much more abounded. Does that mean that we should go and sin some more? God forbid! We resist Satan, we repent, we try again. But the amount of sins or the severity of sins cannot champion the amount of God's love or the severity of His judgement. Here is a poem that just came to me to explain:

The Creator is greater
than what He makes.
His ways and means are higher.

He clearly does
whatever it takes,
to make the tears expire.

how's that? :)

Ok I understand.
But if someone got it right in timeline#1 why also subject that person to timeline#2 where he sins (more)
Ok there will be more grace. But also more sin.
That sounds like God wants you to sin so he can show His grace.
That's diffrent from: He shows grace despite of sin.
Grace is his nature not his goal.

The nature of grace is that it chastens. And chastening always has a purpose: to correct and find peace between you and God. That's what makes ET so crazy to believe in any longer for me. What possible PURPOSE would there be to torment someone "forever and ever" ? Just think about it. If they have no hope of ever getting out of it...why not just anhialate them and put them out of their misery? Their misery wouldn't be making God any happier and it especially wouldn't be making them any wiser...sooo....Why not?

Because God wills that every man be saved and God will accomplish all of His pleasure. That's why not.

He loves all of His children and will do whatever it takes and however long it takes to train us up in the way we should go! While else would He admonish us to do that with our own children?
Okay...I think I'm preaching here. Or teaching, or something like that and its not allowed, nor am I qualified to do it...so...I'll just end this with: "Just my thoughts!"
Joyce :)

Quote from: joyful1 on August 15, 2008, 05:04:53 PM

The nature of grace is that it chastens. And chastening always has a purpose: to correct and find peace between you and God. Joyce :)

so one day, will there be no more grace??  So God is not grace, but it's something he uses only while there is a need??

Joyce,

I think this is going off-topic so I'll won't mention it after this  post in this thread (unless the thread owner wants so)

If someone is saved in timeline#1 there is no need to show grace in timeline#2...timeline#10^99999
That only creates a chance to 'unsave' someone.

More on-topic now.
Besides of that.
Assume the Joyce in this timeline goes to heaven. => assume in bold = bold assumption  :laughing7:
What happens to the other Joyces not worthy of heaven.
a] Annihilation?
b] Infinite number of Joyces in heaven?
c] All Joyces repent and go to the heaven that belongs in that timeline?
d] Or some combination?

QuoteBut if someone got it right in timeline#1 why also subject that person to timeline#2 where he sins (more)

Maybe that's why so many people go missing.   :mshock:

Actually, I'm waiting for all the wicked to go missing rather than the rapture.

Maybe they could be all herded into one timeline--or would that be hell?


Psalm 104:35
Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

 :laughing7: oh MY!! good ones!  :laughing7: actually, Molly...
I keep waiting for True Believer or Martin or someone with a bit of authority around here to march in and see what a MESS I've now made of this thread...

THAT'll be Hell!  :laughing7:
Okay the...the devil/i.e.wabbit,  made me do it!!  (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/568/568363v9kx6xu2g5.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2008, 06:09:17 PM
Maybe that's why so many people go missing.   :mshock:

Actually, I'm waiting for all the wicked to go missing rather than the rapture.

Maybe they could be all herded into one timeline--or would that be hell?


Psalm 104:35
Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

You know, I came here (to TentMaker) to discuss what aliens are...
and thanks to you Molly...I now know what the purpose is for aliens !!  :laughing7: THEY abduct all the "evil-doers!!"
Thank youuuu!!

QuoteYou know, I came here (to TentMaker) to discuss what aliens are...
and thanks to you Molly...I now know what the purpose is for aliens !!   THEY abduct all the "evil-doers!!"
Thank youuuu!!

I hate to say it, but I was thinking the same thing.  Maybe the timeline which overcomes has to go into all the other timelines and clean up the mess they're making.  That would explain why all these people come to me out of the blue, clean things up, and disappear.  I always thought they were angels. :mblush:

For instance, all those brave people that kept trying to kill Hitler could just be Hitler from another timeline.

(speaking of aliens, I assume you've seen the new crop circle on milk hill, England, drawn on 8/8/08 in the shape of a 1000 foot figure 8?)

Quote from: joyful1 on August 15, 2008, 01:21:19 PM
No one here wants to be deceived.

No one wants to stumble spiritually because of the potential idol of intelligence or education.

No one wants to be "blown about by every wind of doctrine" that comes around.

A few want to explore the subject further because of the hope that it offers.

If the true doctrine of Christ can be more fully explained by this, specifically the way in which God will save all men, then I'd like to try to understand this.

A simpler explanation framed by scripture is essential. Is that possible?  :icon_flower:

Hello Joyful,

I agree. I also believe if people live by the spirit, then nobody will be stumbling regardless of the intelligence, education, or even emotional argument because in order not to be blown about by every wind of doctrine, a person needs to realize that by the Spirit God gave some to be teachers, but at the same time it is also the responsibility of every individual to present themselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.  Ephesians 4:11-16 2 Timothy 2:15 Right now, there is conversation being made by those who don't know the details of what is being presented clearly and when this happens there is no continuity of discussion and people begin to discuss their presumptions of what they are hearing rather than paying attention to what was presented. I know that many of you want to discuss it, but you also need to be patient so True Believer can simplify it.

I know from experience, the first thing that needs to be done is to just lay down the idea no matter it's form. This is the essential 'point', so at least people understand where this is going. It doesn't need to be supported even though it is because people need to understand the reasoning that will be supported later otherwise it still won't make sense even if it is with support. Next is the support.

From reading this little bit of discussion after my last post, it appears that some people don't realize they are sabotaging their ability to understand by going on tangents of things that were never discussed or even believed by True Believer or myself.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2008, 12:24:06 PM
Could somebody please explain to me how this works, practically speaking?  Do you mean that while I make choice A, my doppelgangers are simultaneously making choice B, C, D, and E in multiple universes?

Well there is two thoughts. From my position, since I believe in a transcendent God and only one time line (Though I say one, I do mean many it just results in one time line) you have no doppelgangers, they are and have always been you. Therefore though all choices are simultaneous, in the view of a transcendent God, the whole thing is already completed and He is resting from His work. Everything to God is simultaneous even in this nonmulti-timeline life, your birth, your death, everything about you is already complete but you are a linear being and so you don't know this until the linear process is over.

I am not sure how True Believer understands this, but I believe he sees it a bit differently.

Craig

I can only speak for mine, or maybe a few others..but when one talks over my head by not using common day language ,I dont even understand what people are talking about...just like willie..sometime "I dont spoke ok" ya know

You talk of teachers....teachers communicate...thats the ART of teaching..or else ones knowledge is purely a puff of wind Bro...

If you desire TO TEACH then LEARN to REACH where PEOPLE ARE AT( or continue to discuss with those to where your at)...I found it helped our four children when they were young....Tis easier to COME DOWN , than for the young to REACH up BRO.

Id love to know whats being presented...and its not from reading the thread a few times...

just my veiw Craig...each to their own bro
:icon_flower:

I do not reject the concept right away, I honestly need to think about it a lot more.  But right now I have my reservations so I do have some comments and I reserve the right to think differently at some point in the future ....  or not.    :icon_jokercolor:


My son has contempleted some things along those lines. He as well ponders the perception of our own will, choices and  rejects that God controls us down to the last sip of coffee taken.

However, in some ways, we can also overcomplicate things to a point where the complexity masks over just thinking the same way.

For instance,  ET believers position hinges more on free will than it does on scripture.  You can quote them all the data and all the literal hebrew and greek.  You could bring a truck load of theologins,  and  a warehouse full of documentation and it would not matter.    The thought of having a free will choice would take precident over it all.

Why is this?   It is because we as humans worship ourselves higher than we worship a God that "works all" which is directly in scripture and not as easily just an "interpretation".   

We can make all the comparisons we want but all of them concerning our choices lack one factor.  And that is The belief that scripture tells us that we cannot make a choice that is a determining factor for our eternal destiny.

Sure we are free people in america and we make choices and suffer the consequenses,  but I believe the analogy side steps the fact that america is not a sovereign God intent on getting us to where he needs us to be.


What is our destiny?   Are we really as free as it appears from any perspective?

Ponder this for a moment.  Purely hypothetical....

I have a box and I cut a hole in it,  Then I cover the hole back up,  knowing that the slightest touch will uncover the hole.  I place a mouse in the box and my wish, my desire is for the mouse to find the covered up hole.  The mouse runs around the box and I keep hoping it will find the hole,  once in a while I prod the mouse over close to the hole.  I put food by the hole, I put food on the other side of the hole, but the mouse just doesn't seem to ever go to the hole, finally I uncover the hole,  but thats nothing to the mouse it still does not go outside the hole.  I have been feeding and watering the mouse and it seems perfectly content to never go outside the box.  So the mouse is free to roam around the box and obviously the mouse is contrained by the boundries I have put in place. Finally it is time for what I wish to happen,  so I drag the mouse through the hole and Walla,   the mouses destiny is complete.


This appears to me to be what the idea of a free will of our world and the inability to determine our destiny is.


The reason I am skeptical is that I do not see scripture detailing our destiny that way.  I read in eccesiastes that everything happens for a reason.  I see in scripture where we are to learn.   God guides our steps.   Each step we take is a process of learning and if we are to learn what God intends, then each step is indeed determined because each step we take builds up to the finality of reconciliation with God and our individual purpose.

Proverbs 5:21 seems to be talking about mankind,  there is not one of us who has an identical path and God is capable of seeing them all.  I believe that this life is so well designed that everyone is part of a singular,  all of us many parts of one thing, each part equally as important as the next part and God has designed it so that the machine works completely as intended and in order for that to be true then each step had to be planned and each step we take must happen because it did happen.


Anyway, I will contemplate this without just rejecting it out of hand, but right now I am not convinced based upon what scripture seems to tell me.

willieH: Hi brother C...  :cloud9:

Quote from: SOtW on August 15, 2008, 05:57:16 AM

Quote from: willieHThe BURDEN of this fantasy is not on me Craig!  I dont NEED to do anything! 

Then you did not refute it, and therefore you cannot say it is unbiblical. I could say the whole pre-existance thing is fantasy, I don't need to do anything, but I don't. I prove it is not practical or biblical to make the conclusion. Anything else is just your opinion backed up by your belief that you think you know what is fantasy and what is not.

I hold reservations on Trans-Temporal Redemption as True Believer presented it, but it doesn't mean it is unbiblical. I have studied this since my vision at age 13, God is outside Time & Space, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and that means there does not need to be multiple universes of time-space, He can simply change anything from the beginning to end, repeatedly, if that is indeed what God provisioned to do. That is the reality of a CREATED universe of time/space, and a CREATOR who created it can mold it in anyway. We are Linear, He is an Omni. He IS the Beginning and the End, therefore all things Start and End with Him, which means time/space also is within this sphere of influence. God does not ontologically and intrinsically change, but He has changed His mind, intervened, guides steps, etc.

Without demonstrating your disagreement, and making off-cuff comments, you disrespect the person you disagree with who is also your brother in the Lord. Not only do you disrespect them, you do not show them the error of their way so that they may return to all truth. There is a lot wrong with that attitude. It is God's Patience, Kindness and Tolerance which brings repentance, and we are to have these qualities in abundance in order to be effective and productive in the Knowledge of the Truth.

Thanks for understanding and not reacting, but responding.

I have already prefaced that my comments were not intended to be offensive to True Believer.   :dontknow:  ...If he, or someone else, then takes offense (as you often say in your postings brother),  I cannot help them... 

If I PLAINLY state that I address ones words and not one personally, meaning no offense to that one, ...and then that one proceeds to take it PERSONALLY... then that one has purposely ignored or disregarded that preface... and are left to deal with it as they will...  And I shall not feel or made to be felt (blue above), that I have disrespected anyone...  :happygrin:

Let me put it this way my dear old friend...  :wink2:

I do not believe this UNSCRIPTURALLY TITLED proposal ("Trans-temporal salvation/causation") to be BIBLE based ...it might be,  ...but that remains to be seen, and the "onus" to show it to be so is NOT on me, for I DID not PROPOSE it!

If you theorize something and propose it to be Biblical, it is not up to me to prove it UnBiblical.  It is my right to note it has not been Biblically presented, therefore I also have the right to consider it unBiblical until such time that you show that it IS Biblical -- eh?  :grin:

To this point it has NOT been presented Biblically...  :dontknow:

Until a BIBLE BASED presentation of this proposal is made, ...I see it to be of no more SPIRITUAL value than last nights baseball scores... or the latest "EUREKA" episode...  :laughing7:

And shall be no more deserving of my attention then those baseball scores... OR that "EUREKA" episode!   :dontknow:

willieH: Hi Martin... :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 15, 2008, 06:28:36 AMHi WillieH,

I think it's something lost in the semantics.  If I've understood things, they're envisioning more of a chess game, while I think you're envisioning [in what's been said thus far] much more chaos and God running around behind the devil putting out all of his fires one by one in a futile, reactionary way than they're meaning to propose. 

On the contrary bro... I believe in COMPLETE DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY over ALL THINGS whether they are Good or Evil... HE is orchestrating HIS CREATION, the Creation is not orchestrating ITSELF...

By noting this, I am not trying to engage anyone in a debate as to the positional degree of SOVEREIGNTY, which has been argued over and again here on TM...  I am just trying to inform you of where I stand on that issue...

Quote from: martincisneros on August 15, 2008, 06:28:36 AMI've said similar stuff before, though in the way that I put it I was talking more along the lines of the multi-universe version of Quantum Mechanics rather than viewing our time line as an equator on a globe and God being at the North Pole being able to drop down an infinite number of meridians to intervene as He pleased on our time-line. 

I do see the gray areas that are making you apprehensive of this model, WillieH, but I'm not sure that I've seen a presentation style yet of the Larger Hope that a sufficiently brilliant philosopher somewhere couldn't find fault with, with either finding God too controling or too flippant until the train's about to hit the brick wall, or in some other way finding problems with it.  I'm currently inching towards Ultra-Universalism and for some that type of Universalism raises too many unresolved justice and/or disciplinary and/or humbling issues, while for me, either John 12:31-33 is true or it's not;  either He finished it, or it's to be continued.

Not sure what you mean by "Ultra-Universalism" could you define it for me?

Quote from: martincisneros on August 15, 2008, 06:28:36 AMAll of us are at different stages of growth, and perhaps given another 10 to 20 years we'll all be aghast at what we believed to be the method by which God was acheiving His promises right now.  He's a Journey.

Is HE ever! :omg:

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2008, 06:43:38 PM
(speaking of aliens, I assume you've seen the new crop circle on milk hill, England, drawn on 8/8/08 in the shape of a 1000 foot figure 8?)

:mshock: only 8 people will be abducted?
whew! my chances are getting better!  :laughing7:

SOTW--
the key word in my statement was: potential...
"...because of the potential idol of intelligence or education."
We are on the same page here, SOTW.....I understand that you have a gift and that you use it thoughtfully. I used the above as a preface to my main comment, which was....I want to try to understand this. Carefully treading the universe of ideas that are out there today is, in my opinion, and I believe yours as well, good advice for anyone!
Joyce :)

1.  I corrected a typo in my very first post in which I said Isaiah 25:16 when I meant to say Isaiah 65:16 in quoting a verse that tells us that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  I surprised that nobody complained about Isaiah 25:16 being a nonexistent verse.

2.  I used the word "versus" in my reply to willieH rather than the word "verses" when talking about the prophecies of Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31 and Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32.  This was intentional because I was trying to draw attention to the first group of verses in comparison to (versus) the second group of verses.  The point was to highlight the explicit if/else nature of these prophecies.  I didn't highlight the if/else prophecies of Malachi and Revelation to this level of detail because they were implicit or contained in a single verse.

3.  I corrected the misspelling of Revelations to Revelation in my post to willieH.

4.  Hi WillieH, in regard to the concern of yourself and others for scriptural support for "alternate" timelines:  To start, if/else prophecies are an unambiguous affirmation of human free-will, and it is totally unreasonable to deny this obvious truth with half-baked theories of divine predestination, especially given the centrality of these if/else prophecies to Biblical eschatology.  When we combine if/else prophecies with God's foreknowledge of the end from the beginning (the very idea that you yourself mention so often), the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of both branches of an if/else prophecy, something that leads straight to the concept of "multiple timelines," "quantum many worlds," etc.  In short, the simultaneous truth of these two scriptural concepts leads directly to the multiplicity of "reality" being spoken of here, and is utterly incompatible with the simple linear predestination that you have proposed.  The Gospel of John says the Holy Spirit will reveal all things, and WillieH, if you or anyone has an alternate interpretation of how if/else prophecies and absolute foreknowledge can coexist, please share it, but don't deny the Biblically affirmed free-will inherent to an if/else prophecy, reduce God to a higher-dimensional clockwork, and/or hide behind an argument that we can not understand the logic of God.

This multiplicity of timelines that I propose is directly supported by the prophecy of Isaiah 65:16-17 which tells of a new heavens and earth in which the former events will not be remembered.  A very strong but indirect form of support comes from the way the application of the message of Jonah chapter three to Biblical eschatology completely resolves the morass of seemingly contradictory prophecy via a multiplicity of mundane outcomes based on the choice of people in mundane time to repent or not.  Another very strong but indirect form of support comes from the Bible's unambiguous affirmation of a transcendent cosmic destiny (my next big post), something that supports the core logic of time-symmetric causation.  I propose that the issues discussed in this item and the upcoming article constitute systematic Biblical support, and that the more important issues are to: a) compare and reconcile the variations of this theme presented by Origen, Philip K Dick, Steward, Martin, and myself, b) receive relevant input from joyful1 and others, and c) sort out the many details.

5.  In regard to the questions of Molly about doppelgängers:  We have none, and I agree with what Steward of the Word already said about this.  In my own words, we have one life in the image of God in which we are transcendent to the mundane dimension of time in the same way that Jesus is transcendent the higher sideways dimensions of time, and the Father transcendent to an infinite number of temporal dimensions — but because of the sin of Adam we are having to relearn the transcendence being spoken of here.  In regard to alternate timelines, the past, present, and future events of our life are mere data subject to both change and "quantum superpositions" between alternate realities.  But we are not living multiple lives simultaneously, just one transcendent life in which the flexibility of reality and presence of counterfactuals (i.e. the "many worlds" of quantum theory) is vastly greater than what the mundane traditions of humanity admit to.

6.  In regard to the questions of Molly and WhiteWings about the multiplicity of sin and the making of choices:  Yes, a person could sink deeper into sin in alternate timelines, but this is strictly temporary.  A good metaphor is the molecules of air in the wind.  The linear direction of the wind (the Holy Spirit) is toward the total overcoming of sin whereby the grace of God can become a fully a manifest reality, and this destiny is where we will all eventually arrive.  But in the same way that the individual motion of an atom can be contrary to the overall motion of the wind, especially in the presence of macroscopic eddies, so too can individual souls move temporarily against the direction of God and deepen their sin, especially in the presence of macroscopic social forces that seek to deny the Will of God via the endemic swirls of faulty logic, handed-down tradition, and/or vengence and other forms of bad behavior.

7.  In regard to Steward's comment: "The biggest reason for my reservation is the pivotal role that Jesus Christ holds in TTR, it almost nullifies the purpose of His incarnation if perfection is achieved by free-will choice over the span of multiple manifestations of the same lifetime through multiple universe/timelines. Now I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.    Another way to describe the purpose of His incarnation is that via the crucifixion/resurrection, His role as the Alpha and Omega of this cosmos again became a manifest reality for us, so that the Wind (Holy Spirit) which naturally flows from Alpha to Omega could again be a manifest part of our life, a crucial purpose that heals the sin of Adam.  It is by His sacrifice on the cross that our trans-temporal movement is no longer random, but relentlessly guided toward salvation.  And being both Alpha and Omega, He is also at One with the Holy Spirit, and is thus omnipresent across the entire array of alternate timelines in His working of Salvation.

8.  In regard to the question of WhiteWings about the multiplicity of timelines and the Bible: I'm not choosing sides but if I understood Willie's reply correctly I have a question along that line.  Let's keep it simple and just look at the genealogy. If things are totally scrambled then for example David possibly never have been born because his pregnant mother fell of a cliff.  Does God guard/control (sorry Willie....) all timelines in such a way they are forced into one Bible concept?  If not there are many different Bibles too?[/i]  Along with salvation in Jesus, I see the message of the Bible and the divine themes therein to be a factor common to all timelines, for the Bible itself is anchored in this deeper reality, and thus the best testament that exists to the existence and structure of this reality.  But given the transcendence of Jesus to both the mundane and higher sideways dimensions of time, I see no reason that Jesus could not tweak the Bible's message for each and every timeline.  In short, I feel that the Bible is not a constraint on the sovereignty of Jesus, but a testament thereto.  If the genealogies are different, the Bible will be different in a corresponding way, and if we shift timelines via the Power of the Holy Spirit our memories of the Bible will shift accordingly.  In short, God is in control, and it is not our place to questions the actions of God, especially a timeline different than our own.

9.  In regard to Steward's reservations and his reference to the resurrection of the dead.  I'm not quite sure what he is referring to with this, but I see the resurrection of the dead best explained via a two step metaphor.  In the same way that we see the tip of the iceberg while the bulk of the iceberg resides out of sight under the water, so too do we see the tip of quantum reality in the known science of quantum-mechanics, while out of sight under the "waters of time" is the much deeper reality of quantum-thermodynamics.  In this deeper reality, I see the resurrection of the dead happening one of two ways, with the tip of the iceberg being those miraculously raised from the dead in the mundane realm like Jesus and those raised from the dead by the prayers of the Saints (or by the intervention of God in a "near-death experience"). Out of sight under the "waters of time" is the much greater number of people raised from the dead by their appearance on alternate timelines in which the cause of death was in some way delayed or averted, a process that will recover those who were aborted, and will eventually regenerate the multi-century lifespan of the patriarchs for the whole of humanity, as per Isaiah 65:20.  The final resurrection body of I Corinthians 15 is beyond even this.

10.  In regard to Molly's question about the desolation or emptiness of Genesis 1:2, her later comment about the herding of sinners onto their own timeline, and Steward's comment about the meaning of Genesis 1:2.  I agree with Steward about the spiritual meaning of this passage, but like so many places in scripture, I see a literal physical meaning too.  In short, those who fail to overcome the spiritual desolation of their own heart will tend to have very little sideways in time movement during their life, and will tend be stuck and/or congregate on timelines headed toward total apocalyptic destruction as explicitly warned in Isaiah 34, Joel 2:1-11, Malachi 4:6 (and implicitly warned via a relatively literal interpretation of Revelation).  Those timelines will experience hell on earth and end up physically in the state of Genesis 1:2 which is the root for the spawning of a new version of history (and the souls therein will suffer mightily).  This dovetails perfectly with the "cyclic time" of the Pagans, with the caveat that this cycling of mundane history is not an inexorable reality, but something we specifically want to escape via the grace of God.

For those who overcome the desolation of the heart (and mind) via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we gain a freedom to migrate sideways in time during the course of our life, and even though we are not normally aware of this sideways movement, we can end up on an entirely different timeline in which destructive prophecies are all metaphors for an apocalypse of the heart.  I distinguish the fate of the wicked and righteous a bit differently than Steward, and to slightly misquote one of his lines, I hold it as a possible option for the wicked in their resurrection to experience a Trans-Temporal Redemption, while the righteous are reign infinitely transcendent in manifest transcendence with the Father and the Son.  I do not believe that we will be infinitely transcendent in any finite length of mundane or sideways in time movement, but will become manifestly transcendent in having: a) the final deathless body of I Corinthians 15, b) manifest dominion over a physical universe transformed into a Garden of Eden, or at least the portion thereof assigned to humanity, and c) a past that is vastly more mutable than is currently the case.  We will receive this destiny while the wicked suffer in Hell (i.e. the Fire of God), but via the increased mutability of the past, we will pass through timeline after timeline until eventually every single person (e.g. Hitler) that now suffers in Hell is spliced into a timeline where they receive the fullness of God's Grace.

:bgdance:

P.S. Willie, about your complaint re the "Armor of God:" I waxed poetic by referring to the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind as the "Full Armor of God" in a different thread.  Since the Bible defines the Armor of God explicitly, it was a poor choice of metaphor.  None the less, the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind are crucial if we are going to deepen out understanding of the Bible and UR, and if we are to avoid foaming at the mouth and crying "wolf" with every new perspective that comes along. :sigh:

P.P.S. Thanks Steward for the heads up about the history of ideas along these lines, and opposition thereto.

P.P.P.S   Martin, I too am interested in your definition of Ultra-Universalism.  I could easily use that term to describe my belief, but I'm not sure I would be using it in the exact same way that you do.

Taffy, I can name individuals who will say exactly what you said concerning teachers and sorry brother, I know it is your opinion but it is a two way street. A person needs the desire to learn and go through the work of learning.  I have known who here has a desire to learn versus those who do not. Unfortunately, most of the time it is those who do not want to learn, who continue complaining about how a teacher teaches and not looking to themselves and asking if they are wanting to learn.  :thumbdown: If someone doesn't understand something, have them ask clarifying questions, don't expect a teacher to read your mind and know what you do not understand and what you do.  :sigh:

I know you were trying to help, and I appreciate it.  :boyheart:

Quote from: joyful1 on August 16, 2008, 01:14:17 AM
SOTW--
the key word in my statement was: potential...
"...because of the potential idol of intelligence or education."
We are on the same page here, SOTW.....I understand that you have a gift and that you use it thoughtfully. I used the above as a preface to my main comment, which was....I want to try to understand this. Carefully treading the universe of ideas that are out there today is, in my opinion, and I believe yours as well, good advice for anyone!
Joyce :)

I understood Joyful1. Thanks.

I just find many people like are impatient and when they don't understand are quick to make complaints or disagreements based on nothing other than their inability to be patient, tolerant and kind. Let us hope that people abide by both our advice. If people truly want to learn, they will listen and ask questions, they will not be quick to condemn which you have not done, but has been a problem of many in this forum.

In any case, True Believer is now made aware of the potential hazards he will face by remaining learned, knowledgable and educated. It just means that he will need to also be patient and re-explain over and over in different ways so it can be somewhat understood. :D

Quote7.  In regard to Steward's comment: "The biggest reason for my reservation is the pivotal role that Jesus Christ holds in TTR, it almost nullifies the purpose of His incarnation if perfection is achieved by free-will choice over the span of multiple manifestations of the same lifetime through multiple universe/timelines. Now I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.    Another way to describe the purpose of His incarnation is that via the crucifixion/resurrection, His role as the Alpha and Omega of this cosmos again became a manifest reality for us, so that the Wind (Holy Spirit) which naturally flows from Alpha to Omega could again be a manifest part of our life, a crucial purpose that heals the sin of Adam.  It is by His sacrifice on the cross that our trans-temporal movement is no longer random, but relentlessly guided toward salvation.  And being both Alpha and Omega, He is also at One with the Holy Spirit, and is thus omnipresent across the entire array of alternate timelines in His working of Salvation.

Clarify what I understand what you are saying here. This where I was pointing out earlier of a force/action/being with immunity to cause and effect and is in fact the cause and effect from where everything ripples both forward and backward in a linear time line. The appearance of the Son of God, a God (eternal) made manifest in the temporal is constant in every time line, in fact it is this action which flows everything else both forward and backward. :cloud9:

QuoteIn regard to alternate timelines, the past, present, and future events of our life are mere data subject to both change and "quantum superpositions" between alternate realities. But we are not living multiple lives simultaneously, just one transcendent life in which the flexibility of reality and presence of counterfactuals (i.e. the "many worlds" of quantum theory) is vastly greater than what the mundane traditions of humanity admit to.

I got carried away when I said 'simultaneously' because it is difficult to explain this concept because we are temporal creatures. I apologize if I caused confusion. I agree we are not living multiple lives simultaneously, however since what is happening is caused by what is not within the time lines in the first place, all multiple time lines exist but don't exist until the outcome has concluded.  I believe this what is called quantum superposition: the cat is dead or alive, but until one opens the box to see... ...it amazingly exists both in the state of dead and alive? Correct me if I am wrong.

TB when you talk about more then one time line are you saying that God has one plan but along that plan he has made provisions for every choice man makes?

If so then I would be in agreement, but if you mean that I make one choice in one time line and another choice in another time line I would be in disagreement, sounds to much like the gospel according to Rodenberry.

Quote from: Taffy on August 15, 2008, 08:31:56 PM
Craig

I can only speak for mine, or maybe a few others..but when one talks over my head by not using common day language ,I dont even understand what people are talking about...just like willie..sometime "I dont spoke ok" ya know

You talk of teachers....teachers communicate...thats the ART of teaching..or else ones knowledge is purely a puff of wind Bro...

If you desire TO TEACH then LEARN to REACH where PEOPLE ARE AT( or continue to discuss with those to where your at)...I found it helped our four children when they were young....Tis easier to COME DOWN , than for the young to REACH up BRO.

Id love to know whats being presented...and its not from reading the thread a few times...

just my veiw Craig...each to their own bro
:icon_flower:

Hi bro I agree with you, but Craig also has a good point.

The only thing I would suggest is once the teacher has spoken and others have said thats to confusing it then become the teachers duty to meet the other where they live, becoming all things to all men as it were.

True Believer--
Your metaphor of the molecules of air in the wind seems to allude to the premise that men can resist in various time lines the overall motion of the wind/Holy Spirit for a time, but will eventually be "persuaded" by the direction in which the Creator is taking the entire mass of air. Jesus does, of course, always agree with the Father and does His will at all times. But men can, for a period, resist the will of the Father.

If this is so; then the following verse completely agrees with your premise:

Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Pricks being a goad, a shepherd's staff or rod used for "directing" the sheep or cattle.

God was directing Saul's destiny, but Saul was "kicking against the pricks" by persecuting the believers, and resisting the Truth of who Jesus was. A direct devine intervention completely swept Saul into the flow of the direction that Paul was to go. I'd often questioned why it was "hard" for him to kick against the pricks versus "impossible" to kick against the pricks. Do you see what I am trying to say? There was a "resistance" available to Saul/Paul.
Joyce :)

QuoteI do not believe that we will be infinitely transcendent in any finite length of mundane or sideways in time movement, but will become manifestly transcendent in having: a) the final deathless body of I Corinthians 15, b) manifest dominion over a physical universe transformed into a Garden of Eden, or at least the portion thereof assigned to humanity, and c) a past that is vastly more mutable than is currently the case.  We will receive this destiny while the wicked suffer in Hell (i.e. the Fire of God), but via the increased mutability of the past, we will pass through timeline after timeline until eventually every single person (e.g. Hitler) that now suffers in Hell is spliced into a timeline where they receive the fullness of God's Grace.

I don't really understand what you are saying here.  But, it made me think of this:


15And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)

16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.

--Joshua 3


You talked about 'the waters of time' in an earlier paragraph.  Here we see the result of the Spirit of God dealing with the waters--they are heaped up on one side and cut off on the other--so that the people can stand on dry ground.   Thus, they are protected from any of the destructive elements of water as symbolic of time, chaos, or agitation against peace, and are able to stand and walk safely 'in the midst of evil' on a sure foundation--solid ground.   I could see this as a type of symbolic dealing with time, past and future.



Zephaniah 3:15
The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

QuoteGod was directing Saul's destiny, but Saul was "kicking against the pricks" by persecuting the believers, and resisting the Truth of who Jesus was. A direct devine intervention completely swept Saul into the flow of the direction that Paul was to go. I'd often questioned why it was "hard" for him to kick against the pricks versus "impossible" to kick against the pricks. Do you see what I am trying to say? There was a "resistance" available to Saul/Paul.

Yes, that's nice. 


John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Those who are no longer wearing themselves out kicking against the pricks, fighting the Spirit of God,  are soaring on the wings of eagles.

Hi Pneuma,               (Good Name),

QuoteHi bro I agree with you, but Craig also has a good point. The only thing I would suggest is once the teacher has spoken and others have said thats to confusing it then become the teachers duty to meet the other where they live, becoming all things to all men as it were.

Thank you for being the voice of balance, I will try to simplify things as much as possible to meet the student.  I caution that the Holy Spirit is the only force that can bring true understanding of trans-temporal logic, and that all I can do is gives clues to help a person's rational mind align to the Wisdom of Spirit.  For some it is slow, for other's it is an instant outpouring of Spirit in which tears flow and the words of scripture leap right off the page. Something else than can help is to Google around and find a good layperson's exposition of quantum-mechanics.  The ideas Steward, Martin, and myself are all extensions of quantum logic.  The basic quantum logic of known science won't unveil the secrets of God as exemplified by the number of atheistic scientists, but it is a foundation the Holy Spirit can build upon in a useful way.

QuoteTB when you talk about more then one time line are you saying that God has one plan but along that plan he has made provisions for every choice man makes?

If so then I would be in agreement, but if you mean that I make one choice in one time line and another choice in another time line I would be in disagreement, sounds to much like the gospel according to Rodenberry

The reality that Steward and I are speaking about is neither of these options, but instead about the mutability of the past.  The idea of multiple timelines is a useful heuristic for seeing the logic of how the past can be changed, and the relation of mundane reality to the higher dimensional realms.  For a Christian seeking the life of Spirit, however, the core issue is not parallel timelines, but the mutability of the past, for that is inherent to our surrender to Spirit.

To avoid the Rodenberry gospel, I defer to the direct revelations of Philip K Dick and Steward of the Word, both of which had a similar insight.  According to PK Dick, we make a wrong choice, and at some point when God sees that our soul has learned its lesson, He gives us a chance to change the past and make the right choice.  To add to the words of Steward (with my own words in angle brackets) to make things clearer: God is constantly interceding and guiding <the souls of> men trans-temporally to face these <failed> past choices again and again altering everything through constant <high-dimensional>cause and effect.  Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire... As Steward and I both noted albeit in different ways, we can not set our mundane choices in stone, only the Potter operating in the higher dimension of time can set our past actions in stone.

Hi Joyful1,

QuoteYour metaphor of the molecules of air in the wind seems to allude to the premise that men can resist in various time lines the overall motion of the wind/Holy Spirit for a time, but will eventually be "persuaded" by the direction in which the Creator is taking the entire mass of air. Jesus does, of course, always agree with the Father and does His will at all times. But men can, for a period, resist the will of the Father.

This is exactly what I mean, and thank you for the quote from Acts, it is the perfect example of resisting God.  Beyond that, I note that like the atoms in the wind, the resistance of an individual is much easier in a chaotic/turbulent flow with numerous macroscopic eddies where large currents in society are fighting God, than in a smooth laminar flow where society as a whole is surrendering to God.  And indeed, with Saul being an enforcer for "the establishment," there were very large chaotic currents.


Hi Molly,

QuoteI don't really understand what you are saying here.  But, it made me think of this:

I believe what I'm trying to say will become clearer with my cosmic destiny post, but for now, can you tell me why the quote of mine that you posted made you think of the Biblical verses that you mentioned?  I'm curious.  Also, please feel free to zoom in or out on what I'm saying and ask pointed questions.

Quote from: SOtW on August 16, 2008, 02:09:31 AM
Taffy, I can name individuals who will say exactly what you said concerning teachers and sorry brother, I know it is your opinion but it is a two way street. A person needs the desire to learn and go through the work of learning.  I have known who here has a desire to learn versus those who do not. Unfortunately, most of the time it is those who do not want to learn, who continue complaining about how a teacher teaches and not looking to themselves and asking if they are wanting to learn.  :thumbdown: If someone doesn't understand something, have them ask clarifying questions, don't expect a teacher to read your mind and know what you do not understand and what you do.  :sigh:

I know you were trying to help, and I appreciate it.  :boyheart:

Thanks for the response Craig :icon_flower:

I too agree, there are those, who desire to learn and dig deeper and there are those who are like you say.

I indeed was speaking from one who desires to know more, along with maybe a few others.. :dontknow:

That about covers it me thinks :icon_flower:

For now im sitting back trying to take in the essence

:icon_flower:

Quote.

To avoid the Rodenberry gospel, I defer to the direct revelations of Philip K Dick and Steward of the Word, both of which had a similar insight.  According to PK Dick, we make a wrong choice, and at some point when God sees that our soul has learned its lesson, He gives us a chance to change the past and make the right choice.  To add to the words of Steward (with my own words in angle brackets) to make things clearer: God is constantly interceding and guiding <the souls of> men trans-temporally to face these <failed> past choices again and again altering everything through constant <high-dimensional>cause and effect.  Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire... As Steward and I both noted albeit in different ways, we can not set our mundane choices in stone, only the Potter operating in the higher dimension of time can set our past actions in stone.

If this be the fundamental principle of what youve been saying?..then this isnt new...can ya keep your words this simple My learned friend :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

Quote from: joyful1 on August 16, 2008, 05:41:20 AM
Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Some versions of the bible and the Greek do not contain that phrase?

CLV "Ac 9:5 Yet he said,  "Who art Thou, Lord?"  Yet *He said,  "I'  am Jesus Whom you'  are persecuting.


Greek literal " He said yet any (who?) you are master (Lord)  the yet  I am Jesus  whom you are Chasing  (persecuting)

QuoteGod is constantly interceding and guiding <the souls of> men trans-temporally to face these <failed> past choices again and again altering everything through constant <high-dimensional>cause and effect. Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire...

Hi TB, I am going to give an example to what I am seeing in what you said above, let me know if this is what you are saying.

Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

If this is what you are saying then I agree, and is what I call Gods provisions  within His plan for mankind. God has a plan for everyone, and in His sovereignty He made provisions  within that plan for when man fails to do His will. Basically that provision is to keep setting before man the same choice over and over again until man gets it right.

Thinking of Jonah as another example, Jonah ran from Gods command, and because he did so he spent 3 days in hell  (Gods provision), once Jonah repented, hell spit him back out so that he could fulfill that which God told him to do.

Is this anywhere near what you are sharing?

What prevents our mistakes from being necessary and we are corrected as we go along because the mistakes served a purpose.   I can see my past drug use as necessary and few people will agree with that, but I believe it was a necessary means to aid in  my destiny.

Ro 8:26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for the sake of us with inarticulate groanings.

Mt 24:6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation.

If it must be occuring, we cannot say that it could not have occured because the premise is not about "possible"  it is about scriptural.

Hi Pneuma,

I believe you have the simplicity Taffy and others are asking for.

QuoteHi TB, I am going to give an example to what I am seeing in what you said above, let me know if this is what you are saying.

Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

If this is what you are saying then I agree, and is what I call Gods provisions  within His plan for mankind. God has a plan for everyone, and in His sovereignty He made provisions  within that plan for when man fails to do His will. Basically that provision is to keep setting before man the same choice over and over again until man gets it right.

Thinking of Jonah as another example, Jonah ran from Gods command, and because he did so he spent 3 days in hell  (Gods provision), once Jonah repented, hell spit him back out so that he could fulfill that which God told him to do.

Is this anywhere near what you are sharing?

The only clarification I would make is that God's setting the same choice before man over and over again is transcendent to mundane time and can result in an actual change to the past.  Of course, a similar process can happen in mundane time as with Jonah, but it is the deeper form of setting things right that can reverse the fall, overcome death, erase memory of traumatic events, and establish the openly manifest Kingdom of God on Earth.

Hi Paul,

I agree that your past mistakes may very well have served a purpose, and in overcoming whatever struggle you had with drugs, you may well gone through a period of great spiritual growth. 

None the less, it may not have been necessary in an alternate version of history.  To use a perfect case in point, Hitler, the most reviled man in history played a pivotal role in preventing Stalin from installing communism by force across the whole of Europe all the way to the rock of Gibraltar.  For certain, the sins (i.e. mistakes) of Hitler were monstrous, but given the dovish politics of England and France after WWI, his sins almost certainly prevented the ever greater sins that Stalin had planned.  In a more enlightened version of history there would not have been a need for these two forces of evil to negate each other.

Quote
None the less, it may not have been necessary in an alternate version of history.  To use a perfect case in point, Hitler, the most reviled man in history played a pivotal role in preventing Stalin from installing communism by force across the whole of Europe all the way to the rock of Gibraltar.  For certain, the sins (i.e. mistakes) of Hitler were monstrous, but given the dovish politics of England and France after WWI, his sins almost certainly prevented the ever greater sins that Stalin had planned.  In a more enlightened version of history there would not have been a need for these two forces of evil to negate each other.

And I can agree with that to a point I believe.  I have never equated one sin worse than another when it came to the ultimate purpose God had it all planned out for.

But if we are going to theorize alternate time lines then it is still consistant with what I get out of scripture.   I have to go by what scripture tells me at any point and time.  What an alternate version of history is has no bearing on whether God changes or not.  And if the bible is a manifestation of God, his spirit in word form , would that word be different in an alternate time line?

Lets propose the word is explicitly true in that manner, that ecclesiastes 3:1 also exists as written in all other time lines whether there is a certain amount or an infinite amount.

It all equals the same.  Another time line does not change my drug use or the necessity of it. If I committed acts like hitler in another time line,  my life in this time line is not affected  when it comes down to scripture talking about what must happen.

Now, even if all times lines work together, it is still consistant with the word of God, because God works all things.  And the context for all in this case is indeed anything and everything that ever existed in this time line or another.


If God works IN US and THROUGH us for the sake of his delight then no matter what time line there is, each step was meant to be because it "must" be.

The bible does not say that he works in us and through us when we get it right.  He does it so we END UP right.   Because that is his delight.

Just because we think linear and we can theorize resonable nonlinear realms does not mean any one time line is not made to start and continue till completion.

QuoteNone the less, it may not have been necessary in an alternate version of history.  To use a perfect case in point, Hitler, the most reviled man in history played a pivotal role in preventing Stalin from installing communism by force across the whole of Europe all the way to the rock of Gibraltar.  For certain, the sins (i.e. mistakes) of Hitler were monstrous, but given the dovish politics of England and France after WWI, his sins almost certainly prevented the ever greater sins that Stalin had planned.  In a more enlightened version of history there would not have been a need for these two forces of evil to negate each other.

hmmm... as set up to do so by certain moneyed interests in Brit, Italy,  and Amer, those who both funded him and funded the communist revolution to begin with?  He can in no way be construed a hero, just a little man with a mustache who sold his soul to the devil.

QuoteOf course, a similar process can happen in mundane time as with Jonah, but it is the deeper form of setting things right that can reverse the fall, overcome death, erase memory of traumatic events, and establish the openly manifest Kingdom of God on Earth.

It seems to me that chaining satan in the pit for 1000 years would have the same effect.  You don't need to rewrite the past, just get rid of evil.

willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Be careful what you agree with bro...  :mshock:

Quote from: pneuma on August 16, 2008, 04:33:16 PM
Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

Sorry, I disagree that THIS is actually happening... for if it IS...

Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

In other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

TTR proposes that though God's WORD says that GOD CANNOT LIE (Tit 1:2), EXCEPT... in crossing TIMELINES, His WORD says one thing in this "ALL DIE Timeline", while it proves to say the opposite in another... :rolleye:

Believe what you will, I say this whole proposal is deception...

Quote from: willieH on August 16, 2008, 08:48:43 PM
willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Be careful what you agree with bro...  :mshock:

Quote from: pneuma on August 16, 2008, 04:33:16 PM
Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

Sorry, I disagree that THIS is actually happening... for if it IS...

Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

In other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

TTR proposes that though God's WORD says that GOD CANNOT LIE (Tit 1:2), EXCEPT... in crossing TIMELINES, His WORD says one thing in this "ALL DIE Timeline", while it proves to say the opposite in another... :rolleye:

Believe what you will, I say this whole proposal is deception...

Peace...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Willie, I agree with you here as I said in another post about Gods word.   I do like contemplating these things as an excersize in mental gymnastics.  However I have the gut feeling  (not stating that means truth) and take the reservation that this is a way to work around the concept of free will to give man more power than he actually has. This has been the problem from the very beginning of scripture.

I have always said that terminology has always been the problem in discussion of free will.   free will, freedom of will,  free with boundaries, limited free will, free peoplem,  free in christ etc, etc,  ad nauseum.

When I throw all the terminology out,  junk all the theories and stay with the word of God and what God has spoken to me through it.  I see two things, among many of course,
1. Everything has a reason , not everything has a reset button
2. Pray for what MUST happen, not to pray for what could happen or a Do Over

Quote from: pneuma on August 16, 2008, 03:25:59 AM
TB when you talk about more then one time line are you saying that God has one plan but along that plan he has made provisions for every choice man makes?

If so then I would be in agreement, but if you mean that I make one choice in one time line and another choice in another time line I would be in disagreement, sounds to much like the gospel according to Rodenberry.

AMEN... that is what this proposal, IS...

QuoteIn other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

What Jesus does is free Adam from the consequences of his actions, thereby changing the imperative of cause and effect for Adam, i.e. sin=death.

We are essentially being lifted out of linear time and its destructive and enslaving effects.



John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Hi Paul,

QuoteIf God works IN US and THROUGH us for the sake of his delight then no matter what time line there is, each step was meant to be because it "must" be.

The bible does not say that he works in us and through us when we get it right.  He does it so we END UP right.   Because that is his delight.

I agree totally that God works in and through us for the sake of his delight, that he continues to do so even when we are doing things wrong, and that eventually we end up right.  Trans-temporal salvation as I present it simply the internal logic of HOW God does all this.  The real importance of this logic is deepening our understanding of the Bible so we can more deeply align with God's plan.

QuoteJust because we think linear and we can theorize resonable nonlinear realms does not mean any one time line is not made to start and continue till completion.

This is true so far as it goes, but I caution that Joel 2:1-11 and Malachi 4:6 state unambiguously that on the Day of the Lord some versions of history will end in total destruction.  Don't be misled by the word curse at the end of Malachi 4:6, for the literal translation is utter destruction.  See my response to Molly below.

QuoteIt all equals the same.  Another time line does not change my drug use or the necessity of it.

This I disagree with.  You as a soul transcendent to mundane time != your past drug use.  On alternate timelines, you may or may not have had a similar pattern of drug use depending on how your life fits into the Lord's plan.  To believe that this pattern could not change can lead to many versions of history in which it does not change.  This is part of very bondage we want and need to overcome

QuoteBut if we are going to theorize alternate time lines then it is still consistant with what I get out of scripture.   I have to go by what scripture tells me at any point and time.  What an alternate version of history is has no bearing on whether God changes or not.  And if the bible is a manifestation of God, his spirit in word form , would that word be different in an alternate time line?

Lets propose the word is explicitly true in that manner, that ecclesiastes 3:1 also exists as written in all other time lines whether there is a certain amount or an infinite amount.

No essential message of the Bible will change. To give Willie the benefit of the doubt, the sin of Adam, crucifixion of Jesus, and other Biblically recorded acts of evil might be unchangeable, but this has no relevance to the mutability of all other past acts, and the essential role of this mutability in the healing of creation.  But I find it more likely that the sin of Adam and crucifixion of Jesus will both be cancelled out at the Omega point of the higher sideways dimension of time.

More important, humanity itself changes as we collectively mature in the higher (sideways) dimension of time, and as such God could very reasonably adjust the Bible's message to accommodate different levels of human maturity in different versions of history.  If Jesus were not virgin born, I believe there would be no room for genealogies to change at all, but since He is, I see some degree of room for the genealogies to change (with the Bible changing accordingly), although mainly for those who lived wicked lives, and much less so for devoted servants such as David.  See also my response to Willie too.

Hi Molly,

Quotehmmm... as set up to do so by certain moneyed interests in Brit, Italy,  and Amer, those who funded him and funded the communist revolution to begin with?  He can in no way be construed a hero, just a little man with a mustache who sold his soul to the devil.

I am aware of these moneyed interests, and in no way construe Hitler to be a hero.  I simply draw attention to the fact that God had two people who sold their souls to the devil more or less negate each other, and a result the situation turned out far far better than what would have happened if either one of them had won and/or been unopposed.  I.e. God used evil to accomplish something good as was Paul's point in the previous post. 

Also, don't worry about the moneyed interests.  The stupendous mortgage/credit bubbles that they've created across the industrial world and the resulting trade deficits with developing world will, by default, destroy the entire global economy/banking system in the next several years. Unless some higher force enters the picture, this collapse will precipitate the utter destruction prophesied in the Bible, but by Grace of God we can be spared, as summarized below.

QuoteIt seems to me that chaining satan in the pit for 1000 years would have the same effect.  You don't need to rewrite the past, just get rid of evil.

The "Holy" Roman Empire tried chaining Satan in the pit using force of arms for almost exactly 1000 years.  It failed miserably.  What we need is the true Millennium of Peace that can only be brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I totally affirm your desire to chain Satan in the pit and set up the manifest Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.  But there are two ways to defeat the moneyed interests and related conspirators.  One is the way of Joel 2:1-11, total apocalyptic destruction.  The other way is the for those risen in Christ to call upon the Holy Spirit so we can more effectively move sideways in time.  If we do that the moneyed interests and other conspirators will be defeated by continual changes to the past. 

In short, if God can undermine any plan for evil by making changes to the past, and if by the Grace of Spirit we move fast enough sideways in time, He can so thoroughly undermine every plan of every evildoer that Satan will indeed be chained in the pit.  From a mundane perspective, it will look like we've suddenly gained the ability to cut win-win deals in which the moneyed interests submit to Biblical principles, but at a deeper level it is God separating the repentant and unrepentant onto mutually exclusive timelines via wholesale changes to the past.  The global economic system does not have to crash, but it does have to be changed, and we can live to see it.

Willie,

QuoteThen GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

This is nonsense.  You are confusing that aspect of the WORD that is transcendent to time (i.e. Jesus) with that aspect of the Word manifest in time as a printed book. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.   Take the genealogies for instance.  If in one timeline the genealogy equals X and the Bible says it equals X, then the Bible in that timeline is stating truth.  It doesn't matter if in some other timeline the genealogy might equal Y and the Bible says it equals Y, for that too is truth, and both are equally part of the WORD'S TRUTH.

Even if we switch to another timeline by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Bible and all our memories and printed copies of the Bible change in synch, who are we to complain.  If God wants to keep it the same or change it He can, because He is in charge.  Your idea that the transcendent Truth of the transcendent Word must show up in the exact same printed form in each version of history is a naked attempt to constrain the Power and Sovereignty of God.  Please repent.

QuoteThe "Holy" Roman Empire tried chaining Satan in the pit using force of arms for almost exactly 1000 years.  It failed miserably. 

23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

--Mark 3

QuoteI totally affirm your desire to chain Satan in the pit and set up the manifest Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.  But there are two ways to defeat the moneyed interests and related conspirators.  One is the way of Joel 2:1-11, total apocalyptic destruction.  The other way is the for those risen in Christ to call upon the Holy Spirit so we can more effectively move sideways in time.  If we do that the moneyed interests and other conspirators will be defeated by continual changes to the past. 

In short, if God can undermine any plan for evil by making changes to the past, and if by the Grace of Spirit we move fast enough sideways in time, He can so thoroughly undermine every plan of every evildoer that Satan will indeed be chained in the pit.  From a mundane perspective, it will look like we've suddenly gained the ability to cut win-win deals in which the moneyed interests submit to Biblical principles, but at a deeper level it is God separating the repentant and unrepentant onto mutually exclusive timelines via wholesale changes to the past.  The global economic system does not have to crash, but it does have to be changed, and we can live to see it.

Ok, I'll await your instructions on how to move sideways in time. lol  But, so far, what I'm seeing is God raising up his sons to bind the strong man.  I think that is what has to happen 'fast enough.'


21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

--Ob 1

willieH: Hi TB... :hithere:

As it ruffled Craigs feathers a bit, I wish to remind you that I mean no PERSONAL OFFENSE to YOU... Craig is correct and I agree, you are a brother in CHRIST...  :friendstu:

But when it comes to your WORDS, that is an entirely different matter...  :dontknow:

Just as CHRIST who deeply LOVED Peter, and had earmarked him one of the foundational places in the work of the GOSPEL... addressed HIS WORDS as they were DUE, ...accordingly (Matt 16:23)

You, it appears... consider yourself a teacher... and thereby base it upon complexity... whereas I have been given this gift as well... and base it upon simplicity...

CHILDREN are addressed which are likened to SHEEP... both of these entities are SIMPLE in nature, and observe innocently... and are found gleaning the largest portion when it is delivered at their level... which you obviously INTEND to exceed... think about it...  :dontknow:

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AM
1.  I corrected a typo in my very first post in which I said Isaiah 25:16 when I meant to say Isaiah 65:16 in quoting a verse that tells us that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  I surprised that nobody complained about Isaiah 25:16 being a nonexistent verse.

For me, your "over-the-top" style wearies... but thanks for correcting yourself.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AM2.  I used the word "versus" in my reply to willieH rather than the word "verses" when talking about the prophecies of Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31 and Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32.  This was intentional because I was trying to draw attention to the first group of verses in comparison to (versus) the second group of verses.  The point was to highlight the explicit if/else nature of these prophecies.  I didn't highlight the if/else prophecies of Malachi and Revelation to this level of detail because they were implicit or contained in a single verse.

IF/ELSE is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL bro... we are able to learn the difference between OBEDIENCE (good) and DISOBEDIENCE (evil), by participating in BOTH...

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AM3.  I corrected the misspelling of Revelations to Revelation in my post to willieH.

Thanks again for correcting yourself, but let's face it, ...Only the VERY ANAL shall hold you to such an error...  :dontknow:

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AM4.  Hi WillieH, in regard to the concern of yourself and others for scriptural support for "alternate" timelines:  To start, if/else prophecies are an unambiguous affirmation of human free-will, and it is totally unreasonable to deny this obvious truth with half-baked theories of divine predestination, especially given the centrality of these if/else prophecies to Biblical eschatology.

If/else does NOT establish that other "timelines" exist... If I eat beans I increase the potential of farting, but abstaining from eating them, doesnt eliminate the possiblility...  :laughing7:

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AMWhen we combine if/else prophecies with God's foreknowledge of the end from the beginning (the very idea that you yourself mention so often), the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of both branches of an if/else prophecy, something that leads straight to the concept of "multiple timelines," "quantum many worlds," etc.  In short, the simultaneous truth of these two scriptural concepts leads directly to the multiplicity of "reality" being spoken of here, and is utterly incompatible with the simple linear predestination that you have proposed.

This is already beginning to weary me... but because God shall propose an "if/else" prophecy... does NOT conclude there are multiple pathways... It only states that one pathway can lead here, ...and the other -- there.

If I say to you... Arsenic WILL KILL you if you ingest it... but WILL NOT if you dont... does not propose that you have 2 potential destinies placed before you... It is simply  stating SCIENTIFIC fact...

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AMThe Gospel of John says the Holy Spirit will reveal all things, and WillieH, if you or anyone has an alternate interpretation of how if/else prophecies and absolute foreknowledge can coexist, please share it, but don't deny the Biblically affirmed free-will inherent to an if/else prophecy, reduce God to a higher-dimensional clockwork, and/or hide behind an argument that we can not understand the logic of God.

First, along with your TOPIC title, "FREE WILL" is an UNBIBLICAL proposal... so to introduce it to verify yourself and your CURRENT proposal, is a fallacy.  For you are basing upon one UNBIBLICAL teaching, the verification of another.  :dontknow:

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AMThis multiplicity of timelines that I propose is directly supported by the prophecy of Isaiah 65:16-17 which tells of a new heavens and earth in which the former events will not be remembered.  A very strong but indirect form of support comes from the way the application of the message of Jonah chapter three to Biblical eschatology completely resolves the morass of seemingly contradictory prophecy via a multiplicity of mundane outcomes based on the choice of people in mundane time to repent or not.

You should watch your mouth... it speaks in the language YOU understand, and does not convey teaching, rather SERVES ITSELF.

If we cannot have ANY RECALL of what EVIL IS... then this whole process is found to have been COMPLETELY FUTILE and has served NO PURPOSE whatsoever...

It also means that PAIN, SORROW, SUFFERING, DEATH... have been experienced for NO REASON... and that even the SUFFERING and DEATH of GOD's ONLY BEGOTTEN, was IN VAIN... which is UNREASONABLE!

You are SPIRITUALLY unable to see, blinded by your own Creations... one of which is the TOPIC TITLE... 

Is 65:16-17 is SPIRITUAL in its proposal, which eludes you as you LITERALLY observe it...

Your PROPOSAL has created a LIE of what GOD's WORD says... for The WORD SAYS, that IN ADAM ALL DIE... But you contrarily assert that eventually... IN ADAM ALL eventually LIVE...

Thereby removing CHRIST, His Suffering, His DEATH,  and FALSELY replacing Him with meaningless 25cent words, which endeavor to OVERWHELM others that have not as yourself, ...USELESSLY spent their time reading dictionarys... by proposing that we participate in MULTIPLE "DO-OVERS" till we "get it right"... :rolleye:  I cannot even begin to roll my eyes enough at this ridiculous, and self-serving nonsense...

The SPIRITUAL meaning in this verse is that THIS scenario we find ourselves in, shall NOT be REPEATED... For IN THE MIND is REALITY beheld... In the MIND does EVIL find its BIRTHPLACE... (James 1:14)

There is an ORDER to ALL things... PAUL noted in...

1 Cor 15:46

Howbeit that NOT which is SPIRITUAL, but that which is NATURAL; and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL...

So we which EACH have endured the NATURAL... shall in the "NEW" HEAVEN (mind) and "NEW" EARTH (body) ...in ETERNITY, be found in the SPIRITUAL...

The "NEW" HEAVEN is the NEW MIND which is the MIND of CHRIST... EVIL does not appear in the MIND of CHRIST...

The "NEW" EARTH, is the SPIRITUAL BODY of CHRIST... EVIL is not PRACTICED in the SPIRITUAL BODY of CHRIST...

You my new friend, have spent far too much time in the self-glamorizing of YOUR own WORD perceptions ...instead of seeking to KNOW the perception of the WORD of GOD... I believe I shall exit for the moment, and continue later... but before I go, let me comment on this:

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AMP.S. Willie, about your complaint re the "Armor of God:" I waxed poetic by referring to the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind as the "Full Armor of God" in a different thread.  Since the Bible defines the Armor of God explicitly, it was a poor choice of metaphor.  None the less, the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind are crucial if we are going to deepen out understanding of the Bible and UR, and if we are to avoid foaming at the mouth and crying "wolf" with every new perspective that comes along. :sigh:

First, ...you didn't "wax poetic"... you made a STATEMENT... and that statement was NOT metaphoric... As would anyone caught in ADVERSITY, your web entangles yourself...

Second, ...I am hardly "foaming at the mouth", please!  :thumbdown:  Because I am not impressed with YOU and your supposed INTELLECT, you find me "foaming"  :laughing7: 

Third, ...giving warning to the SHEEP is part of my calling bud... it is not "crying wolf", ...it is noting to those who have not noticed, that there is DANGER in the camp... you don't like it?   GOOD!  :happygrin: 

Beware of me... for I shall as a good sheep dog, bite at the heels of my brothers and sisters here in this grouping I have been a part approaching four years... because I LOVE them ALL... and am UNWILLING to let any of them perish at the WORDS of a potential predator... cautioning them to examine what you say... and not just accept it, because you, as do your EVOLUTIONARY brothers, propose OTHER than what is SAID in the WORD...  Subtily speaking AGAINST the WORD, ...craftily DECIEVING... with the WHISPERED proposals of Blasphemy...

Encouraging the DUMB ones (sheep) to have a BITE of your tainted and UNBIBLICAL FRUIT,  and that we should see GOD as DOUBLE SPEAKING, with TRUTH being ONE THING in one "timeline" and the OPPOSITE in another!   :thumbdown:

If that makes you uncomfortable... tough!   :heat:  ...IT SHOULD!   :talkangry:

Quote from: willieH on August 16, 2008, 10:13:20 PM

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AM2.  I used the word "versus" in my reply to willieH rather than the word "verses" when talking about the prophecies of Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31 and Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32.  This was intentional because I was trying to draw attention to the first group of verses in comparison to (versus) the second group of verses.  The point was to highlight the explicit if/else nature of these prophecies.  I didn't highlight the if/else prophecies of Malachi and Revelation to this level of detail because they were implicit or contained in a single verse.

IF/ELSE is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL bro... we are able to learn the difference between OBEDIENCE (good) and DISOBEDIENCE (evil), by participating in BOTH...

Both are set before us, life and death.

But He will roll up the heavens like a scroll...rolling it all the way back from the end, bringing us back to the beginning, before he closes the book.



22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

--Gen 2



Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.



2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

willieH: Hi TB... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHThen GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 09:44:56 PMThis is nonsense.  You are confusing that aspect of the WORD that is transcendent to time (i.e. Jesus) with that aspect of the Word manifest in time as a printed book. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.   Take the genealogies for instance.  If in one timeline the genealogy equals X and the Bible says it equals X, then the Bible in that timeline is stating truth.  It doesn't matter if in some other timeline the genealogy might equal Y and the Bible says it equals Y, for that too is truth, and both are equally part of the WORD'S TRUTH.

First, ...your proposal that there are multiple "timelines" is AT BEST, only CONJECTURE, and it is found CONTRARY to MOST of that which is STATED in the WORD which is all we have...

So we are to believe the WORD (which is all we have), or YOU... I choose the WORD, you are welcome to believe in yourself...

Second, ...You sidestep the issue TB with "geneologies"... address what I said... In one STATED example in the Bible, it SAYS:  IN ADAM ALL DIE... in your proposed alternative, that TRUTH is challenged as IN ADAM ALL LIVE... successfully removing CHRIST and any necessity of HIM as SAVIOR...

You are willing to accept "if/else" prophecies as ACCURATE, but shun the rest?  You are found caught in your own web...

Quote from: True Believer on August 16, 2008, 09:44:56 PMEven if we switch to another timeline by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Bible and all our memories and printed copies of the Bible change in synch, who are we to complain.  If God wants to keep it the same or change it He can, because He is in charge.  Your idea that the transcendent Truth of the transcendent Word must show up in the exact same printed form in each version of history is a naked attempt to constrain the Power and Sovereignty of God.  Please repent.

I do NOT "constrain" the POWER and SOVEREIGNTY of GOD... YOU DO!  You challenge that His WORD varies from one "timeline" to another"...

The WORD states that there is NO VARIANCE in the WORD... (Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) so it is YOU which challenge the statements of the Bible, not me...

If the WORD says that It does NOT VARY (James 1:17)... and that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE (Mal 3:6), and that GOD CANNOT LIE (Titus 1:2)...

:omg:  How can there be MULTIPLE versions in MULTIPLE "TIMELINES" ...of that "WORD" shown OPPOSING one another?  :mshock:

I believe that it is you which need repentence bud... but knowing what I know, that event shall only be produced in you by GOD, not by my suggestion...

You "INSTRUCT" me to repent,  because I am found challenging YOU, ...not GOD... :mnah:

If I were to be in need of repentence... then GOD shall prompt me to do so, not you...

And I seek daily in His WORD, for areas which find themselves, "dodging the light"... do you?  Or have you "arrived"?  And therefore delegate yourself as the "INSTRUCTOR" of REPENTENCE...

Get ahold of yourself TB...  :sigh:  Humility is of the greatest  :cloud9: events that can occur in us...  it would help you to find a little... :pitiful:

For with GOD ...ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE... which means that a "dumb musician" is able to teach a "professor of linguistics"... in THIS "TIMELINE"... the ONLY "TIMELINE" that we KNOW exists...  :dontknow:

I wonder if there is rehab for Sci-Fi addiction?  :sigh:  (btw, if there IS, let me know, for I am an AVID Sci-Fi fan! --- I esteem it as entertainment, and leave it aside when I seek my maker!)

WilliH,

This is a constant problem when something 'new' (new to the person recieving it, not new idea at all) is presented. The person will rejected right away on the basis that it is different from what they knew.  I have to make this note, everything including TRADITIONAL interpretation of God's Will is CONJECTURE. The more you deny the possibility based on your opinions on what is conjecture and sci-fi and other imaginative qualities, the more you must apply this to your belief and realize that it is also conjecture.

That is why, instead of condemning a view because you feel or think or believe it is not true, you should be demonstrating why your view is true and compare those two views and point out the rational error in the view that disagrees with you. Everything you presented does not address what TB wrote, it is just your opinion of what you think TB wrote and your hasty generalization that what he presents is sci-fi.

I spoke with my family concerning this, pastors of 25 years. Though my mother did not accept it for her own reasons, she was honest enough to realize that it is possible. My father, though did not accept it for his own reasons, has a very simular view of how it works in which both TTR and his view have agreeable tenants which could make it true. There was no condemnation of the view, htere was no down right rejection of the view, every person had their opinion and stated what they believed and by the facts, arguments and conclusions, one could make up their own mind what is true and what is not true.

Everything else, casts doubt on your own belief as being conjecture and a figment of your imagination... and that is a road you do not want to go down.

Craig

Craig

Quote from: willieH on August 16, 2008, 08:48:43 PM
willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Be careful what you agree with bro...  :mshock:

Quote from: pneuma on August 16, 2008, 04:33:16 PM
Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

Sorry, I disagree that THIS is actually happening... for if it IS...

Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

In other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

TTR proposes that though God's WORD says that GOD CANNOT LIE (Tit 1:2), EXCEPT... in crossing TIMELINES, His WORD says one thing in this "ALL DIE Timeline", while it proves to say the opposite in another... :rolleye:

Believe what you will, I say this whole proposal is deception...

Peace...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Hi Willie, I have yet to agree with anything TB has said bro, if you reread my posts I gave what I see and asked TB if this was what he is saying, and if it is I agree with him/her.

His/her scope of knowledge on trans-lineier movement or any other trans type of movement far Surpasses mine, that why I did not say I agree with TB but asked TB if he/she agreed with what I said in simple form.

The example I gave is from the way I see things myself and I wanted to know if TB was in agreement with me, not the other way around, for how can I agreee with someone when I don't know what they are saying.

TB seemed to agree with what I said, except he added a qualifier, so it maybe that we are in agreement to a point, but the qualifier of mundane time seems to be where I would draw the line.

I don't beleive that in another line of movement, or in an alternate life, this is the life we are given and this is the only life that must die to be resurrected.

QuoteThe only clarification I would make is that God's setting the same choice before man over and over again is transcendent to mundane time and can result in an actual change to the past. Of course, a similar process can happen in mundane time as with Jonah, but it is the deeper form of setting things right that can reverse the fall, overcome death, erase memory of traumatic events, and establish the openly manifest Kingdom of God on Earth.

Hi TB this is where we separate in what we see, I do not believe that in another time line I made a choice or will make a choice that is responsible for changing my past or erasing my memory of events along this time line. That type of scenario would do away with my mans need for Christ in this time line.

My past will never change, and as Paul says "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".

It is not our past that needs changing it is our present state that needs the changing that we might press towards the prize. And if I am in another time line already pressing towards the prize, I don't need to in this time line.

Therefore in this time line I do not need God, do not need Jesus, do not need the Holy Spirit and can live like the devil, why? Because in another time line I have already overcome and this time line will be taken from my memory and changed by the time line in which I did need God did need Jesus did need the Holy Spirit and walked in a holy life.

I simply cannot agree with that scenario TB.

I will respond to your reply TB at a later time regaurdless of your answer to two questions. 

But I would like to ask at this time.

1. Do you believe that the bible has to be true as written to the best of human ability to translate goes. I mean this for instance: In Isaiah where it states "God creates evil"  Regardless of what evil really is, will the words "God created evil" ever be changed by what this line of reasoning indicates what might be true about God?


2. Do you believe that this line of reasoning suggests different "bibles" in other time lines?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 16, 2008, 04:08:04 PM

Quote from: joyful1 on August 16, 2008, 05:41:20 AM
Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Some versions of the bible and the Greek do not contain that phrase?
CLV "Ac 9:5 Yet he said,  "Who art Thou, Lord?"  Yet *He said,  "I'  am Jesus Whom you'  are persecuting.
Greek literal " He said yet any (who?) you are master (Lord)  the yet  I am Jesus  whom you are Chasing  (persecuting)

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Paul. I'm glad that you are checking these things out. Please feel free to correct me at any time as I want to reiterate that I am a student of the Word and not a teacher! again, thanks! :)
Acts 9:5   is, however included in both of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209, according to Tischendorf. See: http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious_text.htm (http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious_text.htm)

Joyful1,

Re: "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" Despite not being in most Greek manuscripts, it is almost assuredly supposed to be there.  Check out http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_ac9_5-6.html (http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_ac9_5-6.html)


Molly,

QuoteOk, I'll await your instructions on how to move sideways in time. lol  But, so far, what I'm seeing is God raising up his sons to bind the strong man.  I think that is what has to happen 'fast enough.'

21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Actually, the Bible is an extremely good source of instruction for the Holy Spirit is what moves us, and the deeper we understand the Bible, the faster we will move.  And yes the Lord is raising an army, but that action is happening sideways in time as we speak.  For certain, the raising of the army reflects itself into the mundane realm, but the true causal factor is sideways in time.  Indeed, the descent of the Holy Spirit is inseparable from a sideways movement in time for the simple fact that the Power of God is not a mundane power, but a Power transcendent to time.  God Speaks and the whole of mundane reality from Alpha to Omega responds, with our wholehearted willingness to surrender our souls at this depth (i.e. surrender our mundane past) being the mark of a Bride who is ready for the wedding of the Lamb.  My cosmic destiny post will put this in a much deeper Biblical context.  For now, call on the Holy Spirit to guide you. 


Pneuma,

QuoteHi TB this is where we separate in what we see, I do not believe that in another time line I made a choice or will make a choice that is responsible for changing my past or erasing my memory of events along this time line. That type of scenario would do away with my mans need for Christ in this time line.

Actually, it is an assumption that our need for Christ operates in this way.  Mundane time is that aspect of time that relates to people in a fallen state who are resisting, denying, blaming, blaspheming, etc. the Power of God.  That aspect of time/reality is headed toward total apocalyptic destruction as can be readily seen by both the increasing instability of the global economy and the increasing fanaticism of Islam and modern Eco-Paganism.  When we receive the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are by definition moving sideways to time for the reason I outlined just above in my response to Molly.  All I'm doing is calling attention to it.

QuoteTherefore in this time line I do not need God, do not need Jesus, do not need the Holy Spirit and can live like the devil, why? Because in another time line I have already overcome and this time line will be taken from my memory and changed by the time line in which I did need God did need Jesus did need the Holy Spirit and walked in a holy life.

I am not advocating this attitude at all.  In fact, if you live like the devil you will burn in Hell.  But as per the entire concept of universal salvation, Jesus will eventually heed your request for a chance to correct your mistakes.  None the less, it is much better to cultivate mutability of the past by walking the holy life now than it is to wait until after we are dead.

QuoteMy past will never change, and as Paul says "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".

Like I said to Molly, the Bible is an extremely good source of instruction, and aside from repentance, forgiveness and humility, there is no better piece of advice for helping facilitate a true change to the past than to forget those things that are behind us and focus on the calling of Jesus Christ.


Willie,

I too agree that you are a brother in Christ, but as you say: "when it comes to your WORDS, that is an entirely different matter..." :sigh: In particular, I ask that you not misquote scripture, or make inconsistent or strawman arguments in your haste to rebut me.

QuoteThe WORD states that there is NO VARIANCE in the WORD... (Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) so it is YOU which challenge the statements of the Bible, not me...

If the WORD says that It does NOT VARY (James 1:17)... and that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE (Mal 3:6), and that GOD CANNOT LIE (Titus 1:2)...

First, an absolutely unchanging God could preside over octillions of versions of history with octillions of different but otherwise invariant versions of the Bible.  This possibility has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether or not God changes.  As such, your reference to the variance of God is a pure strawman argument.  The real issue is whether you are willing to accept the quantum logic that God uses in the design and operation of reality, or whether you are going to reject quantum logic and remain ensnared in linear/worldly logic.  Again, I ask you to consider the possibility that the transcendence of God is so great that this multiplicity might be possible.

Second, Heb 13:8 / James 1:17 talk about the invariance of God, not about the invariance of the printed word, and as such you have misquoted scripture in a fundamental way.  Please note that I am not advocating variance of the scripture in any mundane sense, but I am making a careful distinction between the transcendent WORD that is Jesus, and printed word that we read from.  And since you are obviously confusing these in your thinking, I rightfully accuse you of bibliolatry, something that I see closely related to your rejection of quantum logic.

Third, I have never ever accused God of lying.  In fact, I have used the truthfulness of God as a premise for what I consider to be a reasonable interpretation of scripture.  In this regard, I believe the implication of free-will is so strong within the Bible that I use the premise of God not telling a lie to assert that it is a scriptural concept.  More on this below.

QuoteThis is already beginning to weary me... but because God shall propose an "if/else" prophecy... does NOT conclude there are multiple pathways... It only states that one pathway can lead here, ...and the other -- there.

Fourth, this statement is totally inconsistent in that first you say that we can not conclude that there are multiple pathways, and then you state that one pathway leads here, and the other there.  Yes from a mundane perspective they are hypothetical pathways.  But unless you are going to say that man has no freedom whatsoever to choose between one hypothetical path and another, the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of every hypothetical pathway that humans might choose, something which necessarily implies the existence of multiple timelines even if they are only "hypothetical" from a mundane perspective.  From a quantum perspective, however, they are not hypothetical.

And before you jump out of the frying pan and into the fire by totally denying the human freedom to make choices, please note that there are dozens if not hundreds of references in the Bible to words like "will," "willingly," "voluntary," and "choose."   Indeed the very word "freewill" is itself in the Bible.   Go check it out at the Crosswalk Hebrew Lexicon: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/)  Granted not every use of these words is a reference to the human ability to choose, and further granted that the Spirit of God sometimes influences the will of a person, but this does not negate the fact that the Bible systematically affirms the ability of humans to make choices.

Lastly, in regard to your claim that "free will" is unscriptural  (i.e. the freedom however limited to make choices), please check out the following link: http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm (http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm)   It is not only a universalist link, but the longest most thorough exposition of the relation between man's will and God's will that I have ever seen.  It explores both the issue of free-will and its relation to salvation in great detail, and quotes hundreds of passages.  He makes a critical distinction between God ruling man's will directly, and God ruling man's will indirectly via what to the mundane mind are very obscure means.  I agree 100% with what Mr. McKay is saying, and am trying to describe the underlying mechanism.  If you agree with what he says, we have no disagreement about free-will.  If you feel I am saying something different than what Mr. McKay says, I will endeavor to better explain the fundamental agreement between what he says and what I say.  If you disagree with what he says, please come back with a very well thought out rebuttal.  But please, no more tirades.

TB, WillieH doesn't believe in free-will. As I said earlier, the understanding of free-will is what is needed to understand TTR. If a person doesn't believe we have free-will and that everything is pre-scripted, then of course they don't believe in TTR. This will go around and around and around because there are people here who strictly deny we had a choice in anything.

wow I stumbled on

"The Divine Matrix: Greg Braden"

on Youtube.com.

It's in at least 11 parts maybe more, I haven't finished listening yet.

This contains all sorts of scientific experiments that are being done these days in this field which are amazing.

Take a look TB--or do you already know this guy?

My finding him can't be a coincidence lol.

This stuff is wild.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2008, 06:43:38 PM
(speaking of aliens, I assume you've seen the new crop circle on milk hill, England, drawn on 8/8/08 in the shape of a 1000 foot figure 8?)

Yeah, that was me.  I've got an even bigger one in mind that I'm still working out the algorithms of :idea2:

Nearly crashed my ship on that one though.  That's all we'd need, huh?  Another Roswell :eyebrow:

Google the phantom dna effect.  This article is from newmediaexplorer.org.


"You will be happy to get the news from Gregg Braden, author of The Isaiah Effect and Awakening to the Zero Point. At one of his all-day intensives on Sunday, October 14, 2001, here is only a SMALL portion of the information he covered.

The title of this program was Healing Hearts~Healing Nations: The Science of Peace and the Power of Prayer.

Braden started off discussing how in the past we lost huge amounts of information from ancient spiritual traditions (when the library at Alexandria burned we lost at least 532,000 documents), and that there may be information in those traditions which could help us understand some of the mysteries of science. To this end he reported on three very interesting experiments.

Braden started off as a scientist and engineer, before he began pursuing these larger questions.



EXPERIMENT #1

The first experiment he reported was done by Dr. Vladimir Poponin, a quantum biologist. In this experiment, first a container was emptied (i.e., a vacuum was within it), and then the only thing left in it were photons (particles of light).

They measured the distribution (i.e., the location) of the photons and found they were completely random inside the container. This was the expected result. Then some DNA was placed inside the container and the distribution (location) of the photons was remeasured. This time the photons were LINED UP in an ORDERED way and aligned with the DNA. In other words the physical DNA had an effect on the non-physical photons.

After that, the DNA was removed from the container, and the distribution of the photons was remeasured again. The photons REMAINED ORDERED and lined up where the DNA had been. What are the light particles connected to?

Gregg Braden says we are forced to accept the possibility that some NEW field of energy, a web of energy, is there and the DNA is communicating with the photons through this energy.



EXPERIMENT #2

These were experiments done by the military. Leukocytes (white blood cells) were collected for DNA from donors and placed into chambers so they could be measure electrical changes. In this experiment, the donor was placed in one room and subjected to "emotional stimulation" consisting of video clips, which generated different emotions in the donor.

The DNA was placed in a different room in the same building. Both the donor and his DNA were monitored and as the donor exhibited emotional peaks or valleys (measured by electrical responses), the DNA exhibited the IDENTICAL RESPONSES AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. There was no lag time, no transmission time. The DNA peaks and valleys EXACTLY MATCHED the peaks and valleys of the donor in time.

The military wanted to see how far away they could separate the donor from his DNA and still get this effect. They stopped testing after they separated the DNA and the donor by 50 miles and STILL had the SAME result. No lag time; no transmission time.

The DNA and the donor had the same identical responses in time. What can this mean?

Gregg Braden says it means that living cells communicate through a previously unrecognized form of energy. This energy is not affected by time and distance. This is a non-local form of energy, an energy that already exists everywhere, all the time.



EXPERIMENT #3

The third experiment was done by the Institute of Heart Math and the paper that was about this was titled: Local and Non local Effects of Coherent Heart Frequencies on Conformational Changes of DNA. (Disregard the title! The info is incredible.)

This is the experiment that relates directly to the anthrax situation.

In this experiment, some human placenta DNA (the most pristine form of DNA) was placed in a container from which they could measure changes in the DNA. Twenty-eight vials of DNA were given (one each) to 28 trained researchers. Each researcher had been trained how to generate and FEEL feelings, and they each had strong emotions.

What was discovered was that the DNA CHANGED ITS SHAPE according to the feelings of the researchers:

When the researchers FELT gratitude, love and appreciation, the DNA responded by RELAXING and the strands unwound. The length of the DNA became longer.

When the researchers FELT anger, fear, frustration, or stress, the DNA responded by TIGHTENING UP. It became shorter and SWITCHED OFF many of our DNA codes! If you've ever felt "shut down" by negative emotions, now you know why your body was equally shut down too. The shut down of the DNA codes was reversed and the codes were switched back on again when feelings of love, joy, gratitude and appreciation were felt by the researchers.

This experiment was later followed up by testing HIV positive patients. They discovered that feelings of love, gratitude and appreciation created 300,000 TIMES the RESISTANCE they had without those feelings. So here's the answer to what can help you stay well, no matter what dreadful virus or bacteria may be floating around. Stay in feelings of joy, love, gratitude and appreciation!

These emotional changes went beyond the effects of electromagnetics. Individuals trained in deep love were able to change the shape of their DNA. Braden says this illustrates a new recognized form of energy that connects all of creation.

This energy appears to be a TIGHTLY WOVEN WEB that connects all matter. Essentially we're able to influence this web of creation through our VIBRATION."



Psalm 96:1

O SING to the Lord a new song, sing to the Lord, all the earth!

Quote from: Molly on August 17, 2008, 10:34:16 AM
Google the phantom dna effect.

"You will be happy to get the news from Gregg Braden, author of The Isaiah Effect and Awakening to the Zero Point. At one of his all-day intensives on Sunday, October 14, 2001, here is only a SMALL portion of the information he covered.

The title of this program was Healing Hearts~Healing Nations: The Science of Peace and the Power of Prayer.

Braden started off discussing how in the past we lost huge amounts of information from ancient spiritual traditions (when the library at Alexandria burned we lost at least 532,000 documents), and that there may be information in those traditions which could help us understand some of the mysteries of science. To this end he reported on three very interesting experiments.

Braden started off as a scientist and engineer, before he began pursuing these larger questions.

EXPERIMENT #1

The first experiment he reported was done by Dr. Vladimir Poponin, a quantum biologist. In this experiment, first a container was emptied (i.e., a vacuum was within it), and then the only thing left in it were photons (particles of light).

They measured the distribution (i.e., the location) of the photons and found they were completely random inside the container. This was the expected result. Then some DNA was placed inside the container and the distribution (location) of the photons was remeasured. This time the photons were LINED UP in an ORDERED way and aligned with the DNA. In other words the physical DNA had an effect on the non-physical photons.

After that, the DNA was removed from the container, and the distribution of the photons was remeasured again. The photons REMAINED ORDERED and lined up where the DNA had been. What are the light particles connected to?

Gregg Braden says we are forced to accept the possibility that some NEW field of energy, a web of energy, is there and the DNA is communicating with the photons through this energy.

EXPERIMENT #2

These were experiments done by the military. Leukocytes (white blood cells) were collected for DNA from donors and placed into chambers so they could be measure electrical changes. In this experiment, the donor was placed in one room and subjected to "emotional stimulation" consisting of video clips, which generated different emotions in the donor.

The DNA was placed in a different room in the same building. Both the donor and his DNA were monitored and as the donor exhibited emotional peaks or valleys (measured by electrical responses), the DNA exhibited the IDENTICAL RESPONSES AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. There was no lag time, no transmission time. The DNA peaks and valleys EXACTLY MATCHED the peaks and valleys of the donor in time.

The military wanted to see how far away they could separate the donor from his DNA and still get this effect. They stopped testing after they separated the DNA and the donor by 50 miles and STILL had the SAME result. No lag time; no transmission time.

The DNA and the donor had the same identical responses in time. What can this mean?

Gregg Braden says it means that living cells communicate through a previously unrecognized form of energy. This energy is not affected by time and distance. This is a non-local form of energy, an energy that already exists everywhere, all the time.

EXPERIMENT #3

The third experiment was done by the Institute of Heart Math and the paper that was about this was titled: Local and Non local Effects of Coherent Heart Frequencies on Conformational Changes of DNA. (Disregard the title! The info is incredible.)

This is the experiment that relates directly to the anthrax situation.

In this experiment, some human placenta DNA (the most pristine form of DNA) was placed in a container from which they could measure changes in the DNA. Twenty-eight vials of DNA were given (one each) to 28 trained researchers. Each researcher had been trained how to generate and FEEL feelings, and they each had strong emotions.

What was discovered was that the DNA CHANGED ITS SHAPE according to the feelings of the researchers:

When the researchers FELT gratitude, love and appreciation, the DNA responded by RELAXING and the strands unwound. The length of the DNA became longer.

When the researchers FELT anger, fear, frustration, or stress, the DNA responded by TIGHTENING UP. It became shorter and SWITCHED OFF many of our DNA codes! If you've ever felt "shut down" by negative emotions, now you know why your body was equally shut down too. The shut down of the DNA codes was reversed and the codes were switched back on again when feelings of love, joy, gratitude and appreciation were felt by the researchers.

This experiment was later followed up by testing HIV positive patients. They discovered that feelings of love, gratitude and appreciation created 300,000 TIMES the RESISTANCE they had without those feelings. So here's the answer to what can help you stay well, no matter what dreadful virus or bacteria may be floating around. Stay in feelings of joy, love, gratitude and appreciation!

These emotional changes went beyond the effects of electromagnetics. Individuals trained in deep love were able to change the shape of their DNA. Braden says this illustrates a new recognized form of energy that connects all of creation.

This energy appears to be a TIGHTLY WOVEN WEB that connects all matter. Essentially we're able to influence this web of creation through our VIBRATION."

Psalm 96:1

O SING to the Lord a new song, sing to the Lord, all the earth!

Best UR message I've heard in a while :cloud9:

He upholds all things by the Word of His power, and Colossians 1 says that all things were created in Christ.

Pneuma
Therefore in this time line I do not need God, do not need Jesus, do not need the Holy Spirit and can live like the devil, why? Because in another time line I have already overcome and this time line will be taken from my memory and changed by the time line in which I did need God did need Jesus did need the Holy Spirit and walked in a holy life.

QuoteTB
I am not advocating this attitude at all. In fact, if you live like the devil you will burn in Hell. But as per the entire concept of universal salvation, Jesus will eventually heed your request for a chance to correct your mistakes. None the less, it is much better to cultivate mutability of the past by walking the holy life now than it is to wait until after we are dead.

Hi TB, you might not be advocating what I said above but that's what the scenario of multiple time lines lead to. According to this multiple time line theory one does not need Christ in this time line because in another time line he has already accepted Christ, which changed ones past and erased ones memory of the time line we understand and walk in right now.

In your post to Willie you also mention free will, and say you beleive in man having a free will, I agree man does have a free will.

But according to your scenario of multiple time lines there is no such thing as free will.
For if I make a choice to sin in this time line and in another time line make the choice not to sin and the choice not to sin CHANGES my past in the first time line I never really made the choice to sin in the first place. Thus my will in the first line was no will at all.

Thus if I have to burn in hell, as you put it, if I reject Christ in this time line yet in another time line I walked into the heavenly realm, and that walking into the heavenly realm, CHANGED the first time line, in the first time line I never burned in hell anyway.

If one past is CHANGED in one time line, because of different choice in another time line, how can you say we have free will in this time line?

Sorry TB but this theory is just circular, for if I do not choose Christ in this time line and in another time line I do choose Christ, who picks which time line erases the past of which time line. How can you say the time line in which I did choose Christ changes the past of the time line where I did not choose Christ and not the other way around?

And if you say God determines which time line CHANGES which then free will is an illusion just as some believe. 

So instead of this theory preaching the salvation of all, it actually comes full circle and can be used to preach eternal torment.

Quoteam not advocating this attitude at all.  In fact, if you live like the devil you will burn in Hell.  But as per the entire concept of universal salvation, Jesus will eventually heed your request for a chance to correct your mistakes.

If this is what the theory advocates, then it contradicts Jesus Choosing us.   You can advocate free will all you want, but this goes beyond freedom within a set of boundries.  It also contradicts the scriptures that tell us the carnal mind is unable to want to correct ourselves to the path of Gods law.

Of course if the theory demands that there will be different versions of the bible then a biblical refutation is irrevalent.  And making the bible irrevalent is indeed what this theory appears to be doing and what mysticism does.

If a person cannot refute a theory without being accused of holding too dearly to the bible then it is a stacked deck intended to slight a devotion to Gods written word with the thought  that Gods word is not "really" needed.

If you want to say I have rejected it without enough thought that is fine, there are certain things that I have to stand on in my life and telling me that I am in bondage because I do not embrace this theory doesn't mean anything because you have not demonstrated exactly what that bondage actually is.

To claim that someone has misrepresented scripture is no different than at ET believer who throws out the context card.  If the bible in indeed Gods word manifest in the physical form then the idea that God draws us and Jesus chooses us cannot be changed to the freedom of our will being solid and God sits out there ready to "heed" our request.   

There are contradictions out there that are resolved by someone stating that "oh they do not believe in free will the way I do" so they will never agree.   But I think the problem is that if you stick whole heartedly to scripture then the theory breaks down.  It's saving grace is the concept that there will be alterations to the bible in different timelines. At that point the theory reveals its purpose.  To disintegrate the written word.


Think what you want of me, I have heard enough for now.

Quote from: Molly on August 17, 2008, 10:34:16 AM
Google the phantom dna effect.  This article is from newmediaexplorer.org.

In this experiment, first a container was emptied (i.e., a vacuum was within it), and then the only thing left in it were photons (particles of light).....

Twenty-eight vials of DNA were given (one each) to 28 trained researchers. Each researcher had been trained how to generate and FEEL feelings, and they each had strong emotions.

What was discovered was that the DNA CHANGED ITS SHAPE according to the feelings of the researchers:

When the researchers FELT gratitude, love and appreciation, the DNA responded by RELAXING ...

yeah, I was hooked up to a washing machine once...also an electric stove and a vacuum cleaner .....I had really STRONG feelings about that phase in my life....funny you should mention the results of those experiments, Molly, because MY DNA CHANGED IT'S shape too according to my feelings as well! I think the chocolate had a little something to do with it though....Then one day, I trained myself in about 28 mins. how to disconnect from the vacuum cleaner and the washing mach, but NOT the electric stove. And lo and behold! my DNA changed shape even further! :mshock: Amazing! I was just wondering, Molly, if you'd done any experiments of your own along these lines? I'm feeling much more love and gratitude for myself these days...and also very relaxed! :coffee2:
Joyce :)

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear-headed
science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research
about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter
originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of
an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom
together . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a
conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter."

- Nobel Prize-winning physicist Max Planck, from a speech he delivered in
Florence, Italy in 1944, entitled "Das Wesen der Materie" (The Character
of Matter)



1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.


--Hebrews 1

:mshock:

Pneuma and Paul,

TB answered some of those questions already when I said the reservation I hold, and why I do not completely believe in TTR, is the importance of Jesus Christ. At the same time, I can see what you are saying, and I see the misunderstanding of what TB says and what you are thinking he is saying.  So I believe you are going to need to slow down because you are already refuting something that TB has already said he doesn't believe. This discussion is going to require a lot of patience on both sides.

QuoteGregg Braden says we are forced to accept the possibility that some NEW field of energy, a web of energy, is there and the DNA is communicating with the photons through this energy.

This is very interesting Molly.

I had a discussion a while back with a devout Atheist,  that is my term, Atheists really deny that they are devoted to Atheism, lol.   But anyway,  my speculation was that even though we can believe that the energy is something that is created as believers.  Science cannot demonstrate that energy was created.  

I then considered the possibility that God is energy or something like energy and we just do not necessarily have the capability to recognize it as "God".  This person then stood on a foundation that contradicts what science should be known to stand for and that is to detect error rather than promote "truth".   This person stood on the foundation that science has discovered all the forms of energy that there ever could be.  The method of science may not be the end all of what we each can individually know, but, it indeed is misrepresented if anyone tries to use it for the sake of a stone foundation of immovable truth.

This discussion was talking about Jesus miracles, and in reality this man was offended that I saw a road map in science that coincides with the bible.    As far as this thread goes, I can entertain all kinds of things until these things begin to break down the fabric of Gods word.  Whether we can surmise that God only gives us the written word because of our state of being or not,  there  is a reality that we still have the written word "because" this state we are in is necessary and "must" happen because it is happening.    

Now, this person I was discussing this with maintained that conversion of energy it would take to make water into wine was so ridiculous that if it did happen the resulting thermodynamic explosion would wipe out all existance.

The point he was making is that a belief in God is fine as long as you do not start saying that science can be used to validate Gods existance.   However, he uses science to maintain his belief by only saying something that is peer reviewed and ends up in a school text book is the only real and valid science.

All of this ignores the theories that some dramatic energy conversion can take place on a low energy level.  The DNA experiment you spoke of above is a good example of a concept (not this specific experiment) that was once theorized to violate the laws of thermodynamics (such as water to wine).  Yet it gives evidence that the presence of the "right combination" of energy can change something very dramatically.

None of these things can contradict scripture and it aligns very well.  It also is a more viable indication of Gods correcting properties in our life according to the lack of control that can be interpreted biblically.


When it comes down to it, I really do want truth,  some truths, yes, are difficult to swallow and that goes to both sides.   Those that embrace an intrique because it makes their faith less mundane and repetetive should be cautious as well.

Quote from: SOtW on August 17, 2008, 08:31:25 PM
Pneuma and Paul,

TB answered some of those questions already when I said the reservation I hold, and why I do not completely believe in TTR, is the importance of Jesus Christ. At the same time, I can see what you are saying, and I see the misunderstanding of what TB says and what you are thinking he is saying.  So I believe you are going to need to slow down because you are already refuting something that TB has already said he doesn't believe. This discussion is going to require a lot of patience on both sides.

I apologize if I have not read closely enough.  I only make the point that I can only go so far with my thinking when the suggestion looks like I cannot trust the written word because time lines can change it.   At that point, the score card is against anyone wanting to biblically refute something which has been asked.

I am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

More Greg Braden.

It's looking like our DNA is some kind of living superconductor.  We are able to communicate remotely with others world wide.  A small group of people can effectively change the emotional climate of all.  Greg says the size of this group is found to be the square root of 1 percent of the total.  So for 6 billion people, only 8000 praying for peace and feeling joy and peace and love in their hearts for the world  can change the world!  As soon as they stop, the effect ceases.  So they have to keep doing it without cease to effect a continuous change.

There is an intelligent field (matrix) which connects everything.  Also, the emotions that we feel in our hearts is the language that speaks to this field.



16Rejoice evermore.

17Pray without ceasing.

18In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

--1 Thes 5



1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

--Rom 12


Is this the fruit for the healing of the nations? :mshock:

The God code.  Greg Braden.


The genetic code in our DNA can literally be translated into ancient biblical Hebrew and Arabic (and working on Sanskrit).  The Hebrew language is the language that links over 1/2 of the world's spiritual traditions. 

How does this mathematic link work?  The bottom line is that the DNA in our body appears to be a library that exists in layers, and every layer has a different key to translate it.  We have translated the first layer, which is the introduction to the book of DNA.

The first message translated from DNA:

"God eternal within the body."


:mshock:


Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Because of our past lack of successful interaction, ...I carefully enter into convo with you brother...  however, ...you directly address me, which prompts the necessity of a reply...  :dontknow:

Quote from: SOtW on August 16, 2008, 11:09:36 PM
WilliH,

This is a constant problem when something 'new' (new to the person recieving it, not new idea at all) is presented. The person will rejected right away on the basis that it is different from what they knew.  I have to make this note, everything including TRADITIONAL interpretation of God's Will is CONJECTURE. The more you deny the possibility based on your opinions on what is conjecture and sci-fi and other imaginative qualities, the more you must apply this to your belief and realize that it is also conjecture.

Your belief might be CONJECTURE, and are welcome to note it to be so, as it is YOUR BELIEF... but you have not the ability nor the right to note MY BELIEF as such, for you cannot KNOW any such thing...   :dunno:   For YOU do not determine MY BELIEFS and YOU do not even KNOW their extent...  :dontknow:

I do not know the extent of TB's actual beliefs, so as is the case, I am "zeroed in" on THIS particular aspect of his "beliefs", as compared to the WORD we have to compare them to...

TB's belief in Trans-TR is in direct OPPOSITION to the WORD which we have to compare it to, and I have duly noted that OPPOSITION... for what he proposes in that OTHER (theorized) version of the WORD, is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the one we have in THIS life...

It astounds me that a scholar of your level is so easily mislead...

Like has been previously stated... this is the "gospel" according to Roddenberry...

Quote from: SOtW on August 16, 2008, 11:09:36 PMThat is why, instead of condemning a view because you feel or think or believe it is not true, you should be demonstrating why your view is true and compare those two views and point out the rational error in the view that disagrees with you. Everything you presented does not address what TB wrote, it is just your opinion of what you think TB wrote and your hasty generalization that what he presents is sci-fi.

First... Obviously you are not reading my responses to TB and are therefore HASTILY remarking accordingly! 

In answering to the portion of your commentary in red above, ...I have already done so brother (*pointed out his error rationally, with the WORD) and unfortunately, ...somehow you have missed it Craig... so just drop down a few lines and see "Third" below...

Second... The above noted in blue is foolish.  :dontknow: You endeavor to apply this to me, but if it is so... it is also applied to everyone commenting, including you.  All of our individual viewpoints must by necessity be our "opinions" as well...  :laughing7:

Third... If you have read my responses to TB... then you KNOW that I have already RATIONALLY addressed his proposal, to which he AVOIDS answering... (as do you) ...that being:

In ONE "timeline" the WORD of TRUTH says:  IN ADAM ALL DIE... and CHRIST is necessary for DELIVERANCE from DEATH... (THEN it is PROPOSED by TB),

In "a subsequent timeline" :rolleye:  An alternate outcome is proposed, that being:  IN ADAM ALL LIVE ...in this, TB has noted --- Adam finally "getting it right", as GOD places the fruit before him and FINALLY he DOES NOT EAT)...

This proposal thereby, ...ELIMINATES CHRIST, ...ELIMINATES DEATH, ...ELIMINATES DELIVERANCE, ...and finally OPPOSES the WORD noted in THIS timeline to be FALSE (noting that In ADAM ALL LIVE)... 

Within its process, it is indicated that there is BOTH... VARIANCE in GOD and His "WORD", ...and denoting that the WORD in THIS LIFE (In Adam ALL DIE - 1 Cor 15:22) is in fact a LIE... for in TB's proposed "coming timeline"  IN ADAM ALL LIVE... :rolleye:

Fourth...  In the TIMELINE in which TB proposes that IN ADAM ALL LIVE (which eliminates our Savior -- for NO SAVIOR is needed in this one)... and ALL memory is erased of THIS "TIMELINE" and ALL others in which EVIL existed... then GOD has put us HIS SON and ALL the rest of us through terrible ANGUISH, SUFFERING and SORROW for NOTHING...

You are welcome to buy, this cr*p Craig... I do not...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: SOtW on August 16, 2008, 11:09:36 PMI spoke with my family concerning this, pastors of 25 years. Though my mother did not accept it for her own reasons, she was honest enough to realize that it is possible. My father, though did not accept it for his own reasons, has a very simular view of how it works in which both TTR and his view have agreeable tenants which could make it true. There was no condemnation of the view, htere was no down right rejection of the view, every person had their opinion and stated what they believed and by the facts, arguments and conclusions, one could make up their own mind what is true and what is not true.

You wish to remove this right from ME dood (mind/opinion/conclusion)!  ...I have made up my mind (via comparison of TB's proposal to the WORD) what is TRUE... that you do not accept it,  ...matters NOT to me brother...

I could give many more instances where the WORD (which I believe to contain TRUTH), and which is given to us in THIS LIFETIME... as COMPLETELY CONTRARY to TB's "Trans-TR"...

Matter of fact the entire BIBLE is CONTRARY to it... you are welcome to accept the LEVEN presented here, have your fill of it, if you will... but I will display that it is an endangerment even to consider... for a "little leven, leveneth the WHOLE LUMP"... believe what you will Craig...

Quote from: SOtW on August 16, 2008, 11:09:36 PMEverything else, casts doubt on your own belief as being conjecture and a figment of your imagination... and that is a road you do not want to go down.

Craig

:Yeahright:  There isn't much YOU can say to sway me, and vice-versa... You are welcome to DOUBT what I believe... it does not matter to me in the least. You should know this by now bro...   :sigh:

But you are left with the burden of proving that in one "timeline" the "TRUTH" is that IN ADAM ALL DIE... and CHRIST is SAVIOR... and in the other suggested by TB... the "TRUTH" is that IN ADAM ALL LIVE, and thereby deletes CHRIST... along with ALL MEMORY of THIS LIFETIME...  :thumbdown:

If you can...

RECONCILE the FOLLOWING:

RATIONALLY Prove to me:

(1)  How GOD's WORD, is found to be  TRUTH in BOTH "timeline" scenarios (Adam eating/not eating) ...and,

(2)  How GOD and HIS WORD, ...does NOT CHANGE or VARY within TB's proposal of multiple "timelines".  And,

(3) How the "eventual obedience of Adam" affects JESUS CHRIST as a SAVIOR without a job...   :dontknow:

For if "ADAM (in a "timeline" to come) doesn't EAT"... then NO SAVIOR is necessary, for NO DEATH is ever seen or KNOWN, ...And because TB successfully removes ALL MEMORY of THIS "timeline" (Is 65:17)... 

Which action, removes the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, and places us back to the beginning of this VAIN, SUFFERING and UNREASONABLE existence...

Thanks...  :cloud9:

Martin,

I'd like to go for a spin in your saucer.  You up to it?  Also, what are your thoughts on my idea that the many worlds of quantum mechanics and parallel timelines are two ways of looking at the same thing?


Molly,

Thanks for sharing the experiments, and I'm sure there are many more.  I have heard of Greg Braden before but since he's open to many aspects of New Age belief, many Christians would find him a bit unorthodox.  He has a lot of interesting information and some useful insights, and has assembled some of the best evidence for "paranormal" phenomena that exists.  The more we look at this kind of evidence from a scientific perspective, the more it becomes clear that the only really good explanation is an ordered, time-symmetric system of what could best be called parallel timelines or many worlds.  Since the focus of this board is Biblical, I've refrained from going into the science, but I find it ironic if not tragic that so many Christians fail to see the deeper logic that is at the very heart of the Bible despite it being the one thing that would overturn scientific materialism once and for all. :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:  But I have faith the Lord will clear the way for this deeper truth.

Pneuma, Paul,

Thank you for your feedback and for trying to follow what I am saying.  Before discussing the paradox of free will and predestination, please note I am not in any way: a) devaluing the Bible, nor b) saying that we can not trust the Bible, nor c) saying that the Bible can change via the flow of mundane time.  In this regard, the physical manifestation of the Bible in alternate timelines (and/or on alien planets) is not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.  I bring it up solely to emphasize what I feel God could do if God wanted to without any conflict whatsoever with the principle of God not changing, for it would be a projection (or viewpoint) of God that is changing not God.  Nor is there any reason to be concerned if our movement sideways in time resulted in a change to the Bible — for the simple reason that a change of this sort happens without any knowledge on our part whatsoever because our memories and printed records have changed too, in which case we rightfully trust the changed Bible without even being aware of the change.  And as the Church matures in the higher dimension of time, I see no reason why God could not shift the message accordingly, much as the students of a school get a slightly different message at each grade level.

In regard to the seeming paradox between freewill and predestination, Pneuma came very close to hitting the nail on the head when he said:

QuoteIn your post to Willie you also mention free will, and say you believe in man having a free will, I agree man does have a free will.

And if you say God determines which time line CHANGES which then free will is an illusion just as some believe.

In short, there is a paradox to the mundane mind that can be overcome via the Grace of Sprit if we sufficiently deepen our study of the Bible.  In this regard, I do claim that our own will can to a degree further or retard the Grace of the Lord within a host of scripturally affirmed constraints and that our effort to explore the deeper logic of the Bible is a worthwhile use of our mundane will.  In regard to scriptural backing, I defer to both http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm, a file with hundreds of scriptural references that deal with the relation of man's will and God's Will, and the file http://sigler.org/shofar/1997no5.htm that further emphasizes the point that in some circumstances, man can resist God for a time. 

Please let me clarify the exact Biblical message, by deepening the metaphor of the Wind that I used in my earlier discussion with Molly and WhiteWings to describe the action of the Holy Spirit.  This will be presented in detail in my next post, but for now, please note that the first sign of the Holy Spirit on the day of the Pentecost was "a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting."  Acts 2:2 NIV  I will use this metaphor and try to describe the "mechanism" of how man's will and God's Will interact in a way that is 100% compatible with the two detailed scriptural expositions listed above. 

P.S.

Paul,

In regard to this issue,

QuoteIf a person cannot refute a theory without being accused of holding too dearly to the bible then it is a stacked deck intended to slight a devotion to Gods written word with the thought  that Gods word is not "really" needed.

Please note that Willie misquoted the Bible in a blatant way in so doing very obviously mistook the Bible for God.  This is the very definition of bibliolatry.  Please look carefully at the part of his message that I quoted.

QuoteI am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

That is because WillieH put his foot down almost right off the bat without biblical support for his disagreeent and then demanded TB to repent and the proceeded to use Scripture in a fashion which had nothing to do with what TB presented and TB was only pointing this out. If I did what WillieH does, I would be getting a phone call from Gary.

Quote from: SOtW on August 18, 2008, 12:34:50 AM

QuoteI am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

That is because WillieH put his foot down almost right off the bat without biblical support for his disagreeent and then demanded TB to repent and the proceeded to use Scripture in a fashion which had nothing to do with what TB presented and TB was only pointing this out.

I stand corrected on that

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 10:26:45 PM
And as the Church matures in the higher dimension of time, I see no reason why God could not shift the message accordingly, much as the students of a school get a slightly different message at each grade level.

I am not going to disregaurd the theory completely, I've had a chance to take a breath and get off my initial defense mechanism that I work daily on.

I find there is truth in about everything, but something in particular does not contain the "whole truth".   For instance, I do believe everything in the bible is true,  but doubtfully everything I believe it "means" is true.   I see some things that make sense within the theory and others cause me a great deal of concern.  No bother, none of that validates or invalidates it.   But in regaurds to your analogy in relationship to a message shift, from kindergarten to high school 2+2=4, there is more,  but I do not believe there is "different".   The LAW of Gravity remains  undisputed, but we have found that there is more, the theoretical "more" has not invalidated the LAW.

I believe there is more to God than what is contained in the bible, I just do not see the "more"  changing what we have. 

If this is more along the lines of the reality of this message shift then lets build upon that.  If not then possibly shift your analogy to something more suitable to help me understand.

Take care

Paul

willieH: Hi TB...  :icon_king:

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AM
Willie,

I too agree that you are a brother in Christ, but as you say: "when it comes to your WORDS, that is an entirely different matter..." :sigh: In particular, I ask that you not misquote scripture, or make inconsistent or strawman arguments in your haste to rebut me.

This statement/request is irrelevant unless you note that which you consider as "strawman"...

Quote from: willieHThe WORD states that there is NO VARIANCE in the WORD... (Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) so it is YOU which challenge the statements of the Bible, not me...

If the WORD says that It does NOT VARY (James 1:17)... and that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE (Mal 3:6), and that GOD CANNOT LIE (Titus 1:2)...

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMFirst, an absolutely unchanging God could preside over octillions of versions of history with octillions of different but otherwise invariant versions of the Bible.  This possibility has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether or not God changes.  As such, your reference to the variance of God is a pure strawman argument.

I beg to differ... in order to prove TRUTH, you must come INTO THE LIGHT... the LIGHT we have is found in the WORD...

There is so much in OPPOSITION of the BIBLE to your proposal, I could name Scripture all day, as the list is literally endless, ...but for the sake of brevity here are just a FEW:

The WORD we do have... states:

1.  that IN ADAM ALL DIE (1 Cor 15:22) ...

2.  that it is APPOINTED to MAN ...ONCE to DIE (Heb 9:27) ...

3.  that JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN (1 Tim 4:10)... 

4.  that CHRIST died for REDEMPTION from SIN:  but we see JESUS who was made a little lower than the angels for the SUFFERING of DEATH... (Heb 2:9)...

5.  that SIN was something that necessitated a SAVIOR: Behold the Lamb of GOD which TAKETH AWAY, ...the SIN of the WORLD (John 1:29)

these and many other Biblical statements are rendered as FALSE reports by your proposal... as you propose that somewhere in myriads of phantom "timelines" that ADAM "gets it right", and thereby notes all the above verses as FALSE... and that they NEVER occured, which is a LIE for we ARE living in this life, and we ARE experiencing these verses...

(1)  In another "timeline" you propose that Adam does NOT EAT... which means SIN never occurs... which negates (1 Cor 15:22), and also means that

(2)  That the BIBLICAL statement that:  it is APPOINTED to MAN ...ONCE... to die (Heb 9:27) is also NEGATED... and further means that...

(3)  Men never SIN, so there is no need for CHRIST to SAVE them, from something that NEVER occured... negating the Biblical statement (1 Tim 4:10).... we trust in the LIVING GOD, who ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN...

(4)  That ADAM does not EAT, negates that CHRIST must DIE, removing HIM and THE GLORY of His deed (Heb 2:9)

(5)  That is was NOT necessary for the Lamb to TAKE AWAY, that which NEVER occured... (John 1:29)

You continue to avoid the question... that the WORD we have (which is the Bible), proposes as TRUTH... that:  IN ADAM ALL DIE... (1 Cor 15:22)  ...yet, YOU PROPOSE in another "timeline" that this is NOT SO... and remove the need for a SAVIOR, which irreverently reverts CHRIST to the unemployment line...

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMThe real issue is whether you are willing to accept the quantum logic that God uses in the design and operation of reality, or whether you are going to reject quantum logic and remain ensnared in linear/worldly logic.  Again, I ask you to consider the possibility that the transcendence of God is so great that this multiplicity might be possible.

Ya-know... You are so immersed in your "contrived" knowledge, that you have convinced yourself it is FACT... and that GOD is operating according to YOU and YOUR vision of "quantum logic" (unbiblical - unproven)...

Mulitplicity is UNNECESSARY dude... GOD is able to conclude ONE PLAN even though He is capable of COMPLICATING it beyone ANY COMPREHENSION (even yours!)...

This is getting to be a waste of my time... You base yourself upon your OWN WORDS... I have presented many Scriptural questions which you avoid because you have no answers...

I reject that GOD double talks (or, according to you "octillion" talks)... which is exactly what you propose... It is getting to the point where your continuous avoidance of my questions of you, only verifies the FALSEHOOD of your proposal...

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMSecond, Heb 13:8 / James 1:17 talk about the invariance of God, not about the invariance of the printed word, and as such you have misquoted scripture in a fundamental way.  Please note that I am not advocating variance of the scripture in any mundane sense, but I am making a careful distinction between the transcendent WORD that is Jesus, and printed word that we read from.  And since you are obviously confusing these in your thinking, I rightfully accuse you of bibliolatry, something that I see closely related to your rejection of quantum logic.

Ah... I knew it was coming... the ACCUSER in you has finally shown up and is IN PRINT, openly admitted and stated, ...by YOU...  :sigh:

(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His CHRIST, for the ...ACCUSER...  of our brethren is CAST DOWN, which ACCUSED them before our God, day and night

That I hold the ONLY information that we have (the Bible) of the WILL and PURPOSE of the Creator is not "bibliolatry" ( :pointlaugh:)  Please!

Bibliolatry is one STANDING upon the LETTER of the Bible...

If anyone is doing this it is YOU...  :dontknow:

I see the Bible as a SPIRITUAL writing, which is SPIRITUALLY understood.  And have given you SPIRITUAL insight already in this conversation which opposed your LITERAL view (letter of the word)...  In my explanation of the NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH... which you LITERALLY expect to come in one YOUR "timelines"...  :laugh:

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMThird, I have never ever accused God of lying.  In fact, I have used the truthfulness of God as a premise for what I consider to be a reasonable interpretation of scripture.  In this regard, I believe the implication of free-will is so strong within the Bible that I use the premise of God not telling a lie to assert that it is a scriptural concept.  More on this below.

IMPLICATION?  Choice is not FREE WILL... FREE WILL is a WILL which is FREE of ANY confinement!  The Word which you ACCUSE me of holding to the LETTER, is FREE of your IMPLICATION!  For there is NO notation of the WILL of man to be FREE... on the contrary... It is FROM the BONDAGE of "our WILL" that the TRUTH makes us FREE... (John 8:32)

Paul teaches that we be TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING of our MIND (Rom 12:1-2)... and that "renewing" is done by DIEING DAILY to OURSELVES (will), ABANDONING "our [imprisoned] will, and submitting to the WILL of GOD...

Quote from: willieHThis is already beginning to weary me... but because God shall propose an "if/else" prophecy... does NOT conclude there are multiple pathways... It only states that one pathway can lead here, ...and the other -- there.

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMFourth, this statement is totally inconsistent in that first you say that we can not conclude that there are multiple pathways, and then you state that one pathway leads here, and the other there.

You lift out the contextual element in my quote... I plainly explained that 2 potential DESTINYS are not set before one, just because 2 things are placed before one.

For the slow of mind, I said, that because a scientific warning is made that ARSENIC will kill you IF ingested... does not mean that you will either INGEST or ABSTAIN... thereby 2 destinys set before you!  Please...

That is the same breed of nonsense as:  You better not eat CARROTS, because everyone that ever ATE CARROTS... eventually DIED... naming CARROTS a KILLER...  :laughing7:

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMYes from a mundane perspective they are hypothetical pathways.  But unless you are going to say that man has no freedom whatsoever to choose between one hypothetical path and another, the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of every hypothetical pathway that humans might choose, something which necessarily implies the existence of multiple timelines even if they are only "hypothetical" from a mundane perspective.  From a quantum perspective, however, they are not hypothetical.

It is you that have become MUNDANE dear TB... so INTELLECTUAL that you are unable to grasp the simple truth that GOD is SOVEREIGN, for if He IS, than it destroys your "FREE WILL" and demotes your PROPOSAL to carnal nonsense created in your own imagination...

Hypothetical cr*p is just that...FANTASY, ...NOT REALITY... You glorify yourself with your "hypothesis" of multiple timelines, but find yourself ALIVE in only ONE...  :laughing7:

Never KNOWING in the end, whether or not any of those "timelines" ever existed because you believe that GOD shall ERASE from your memory, everything...  :mshock: -- :sigh: 

And thereby ALL this (this reality) and ALL THAT (unfounded, unproven multiple "timelines"), are just found floating in the FUTILITY of the ..."to be completely ERASED" ...mists of CONFUSION...   :thumbdown:

Get over yourself dude... you cannot defeat simplicity with complexity... you only wrap yourself up within its web, and only GOD can release you from its bonds...

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMAnd before you jump out of the frying pan and into the fire by totally denying the human freedom to make choices, please note that there are dozens if not hundreds of references in the Bible to words like "will," "willingly," "voluntary," and "choose."   Indeed the very word "freewill" is itself in the Bible.   Go check it out at the Crosswalk Hebrew Lexicon: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/)  Granted not every use of these words is a reference to the human ability to choose, and further granted that the Spirit of God sometimes influences the will of a person, but this does not negate the fact that the Bible systematically affirms the ability of humans to make choices.

Hold on to yourself TB... for you, and many others which shall LOSE what you fight to hold on to...

Dogs choose... computers choose... do they have FREE WILL?  :laughing7:

We "choose" according to that which YHVH DECLARED that we CHOOSE... (Is 46:10-11)

Whilst you cling to YOU,  ...I shall submit unto HIM, knowing my pathway has PURPOSE according to HIM, and knowing that pathway is outlined by HIM, not me... as Scripture notes in several places (Rom 9:16 / Prov 20:24 / Jer 10:23)

Quote from: True Believer on August 17, 2008, 07:56:14 AMLastly, in regard to your claim that "free will" is unscriptural  (i.e. the freedom however limited to make choices), please check out the following link: http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm (http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm)   It is not only a universalist link, but the longest most thorough exposition of the relation between man's will and God's will that I have ever seen.  It explores both the issue of free-will and its relation to salvation in great detail, and quotes hundreds of passages.  He makes a critical distinction between God ruling man's will directly, and God ruling man's will indirectly via what to the mundane mind are very obscure means.  I agree 100% with what Mr. McKay is saying, and am trying to describe the underlying mechanism.  If you agree with what he says, we have no disagreement about free-will.  If you feel I am saying something different than what Mr. McKay says, I will endeavor to better explain the fundamental agreement between what he says and what I say.  If you disagree with what he says, please come back with a very well thought out rebuttal.  But please, no more tirades.

It is quite an assumption on your part that I would find any interest in some "man's" view of "FREE WILL"... I am not the least bit interested in this... :mnah:

I have already found an answer from GOD's WORD concerning this issue, and  the imprisoned viewpoints of men (including yours), fall far short of that truth...

You are quite welcome to invest your faith in Mr. McKay... as for me, I shall continue to search the Scripture (not man's opinions) for TRUTH...

As far as "TIRADES"... Please!  ...unfounded exaggeration...  :laughing7:

You herein you erect your "Strawman" my friend, unable to respond to my questions of you... and finding that I have answers to yours... ACCUSING me along the way... Like I said my new friend, get over yourself...

JESUS doesn't accuse... MEN do... (John 8:10)

That I disagree with you and your foolishness, is hardly a TIRADE...  :pointlaugh:

willieH: Hi Craig...  :icon_flower:

QuoteI am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

Quote from: SOtW on August 18, 2008, 12:34:50 AMThat is because WillieH put his foot down almost right off the bat without biblical support for his disagreeent and then demanded TB to repent and the proceeded to use Scripture in a fashion which had nothing to do with what TB presented and TB was only pointing this out. If I did what WillieH does, I would be getting a phone call from Gary.

Craig... you are here seen, as a bull in a china shop bro... I never demanded any such repentence from TB... It is HE which demanded it of ME... HERE:

[quote author=True Believer link=topic=3121.msg32117#msg32117
Even if we switch to another timeline by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Bible and all our memories and printed copies of the Bible change in synch, who are we to complain.  If God wants to keep it the same or change it He can, because He is in charge.  Your idea that the transcendent Truth of the transcendent Word must show up in the exact same printed form in each version of history is a naked attempt to constrain the Power and Sovereignty of God.  Please repent.[/quote]

In my response to him, I recommended it back to him... but also noted that repentence is a LEADING of GOD, (Rom 2:4) ...not a recommendation of any man... (myself to him, ...or him to me, ...or even YOU to me for that matter!)

Secondly... You continue to avoid my questions just as does TB... birds of a feather - eh?

Quit whining about Gary, and answer my questions brother... then you shall show what you either do... or don't know...  :dontknow:

Reconcile TB's 2 proposed "timelines" ...as BOTH being ...truth...

Do ALL DIE or LIVE in ADAM? 

Is CHRIST a SAVIOR or not? 

Did ADAM eat or not?

Did CHRIST take away SIN or not?

Well?  :dontknow:

My Bible says ALL DIE in ADAM... it says CHRIST IS the Savior of all, and ADAM, ...DID EAT!  CHRIST DID DIE to redeem from SIN!  ...What does YOURS say?

The Bible according to TB is that GOD speaks with a forked tongue... and that TRUTH is not a FIRM CONSTANT, rather is established upon whatever GOD says it is in different VARYING "timelines"... :rolleye:

Furthermore, that in the end, ALL timelines" are buried in the sand of an AMNESIAC plan that concludes that ALL shall be FORGOTTEN... what a load of BS... You are welcome to it...  :thumbdown:

You are still thinking linearly WillieH. All the 'objections' you have, are true objections found in TB's TTR theology. The problem is the continuation of applying a linear timeline to a God that transcends all time and creation.

QuotePneuma, Paul,

Thank you for your feedback and for trying to follow what I am saying. Before discussing the paradox of free will and predestination, please note I am not in any way: a) devaluing the Bible, nor b) saying that we can not trust the Bible, nor c) saying that the Bible can change via the flow of mundane time.

Hi TB
Again you say you are not devaluing the Bible, but the belief in multiple time line does just that. The scriptures tell us not to add or take away, but if one time line CHANGES the events in another time line the scriptures must also of necessity CHANGE to. For the events in one time line negate the other. Christ came and died in this time line, by implication in another time line Christ never came and died. Thus you have not only done away with the Bible you have also done away with the true WORD of God, Jesus Christ.

QuoteIn this regard, the physical manifestation of the Bible in alternate timelines (and/or on alien planets) is not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand. I bring it up solely to emphasize what I feel God could do if God wanted to without any conflict whatsoever with the principle of God not changing, for it would be a projection (or viewpoint) of God that is changing not God.

Not so for the scriptures state God is Love, so in another time line the scriptures could say God is not love.. Thus not only does your theory change the scriptures it changes God Himself.

Quote
Nor is there any reason to be concerned if our movement sideways in time resulted in a change to the Bible —

Hardly TB, it is of UTMOST concern, if the scriptures are to change, so to Jesus Christ and our Father. Willie already brought this up, but if Adam did not eat in one timeline and it changes our time line Christ never came and no one would get to the Father.

Quotefor the simple reason that a change of this sort happens without any knowledge on our part whatsoever because our memories and printed records have changed too, in which case we rightfully trust the changed Bible without even being aware of the change. And as the Church matures in the higher dimension of time, I see no reason why God could not shift the message accordingly, much as the students of a school get a slightly different message at each grade level.

Well I agree with Paul when he said

QuoteBut in regaurds to your analogy in relationship to a message shift, from kindergarten to high school 2+2=4, there is more, but I do not believe there is "different". The LAW of Gravity remains undisputed, but we have found that there is more, the theoretical "more" has not invalidated the LAW.

Sorry TB but any gospel that does away with our need for Christ, which a multiple time line does, ain't no gospel at all.

Like I said it sounds like the gospel according to Rodenberry and I can't believe some here actually entertain such a notion.

QuotePneuma and Paul,

TB answered some of those questions already when I said the reservation I hold, and why I do not completely believe in TTR, is the importance of Jesus Christ.

Hi Craig. I don't believe TB has answered my questions bro, when my questions relate to multiple time lines, all he does is address the mundane time line part of it as though he made an answer to what I and others have asked concerning multiple time lines.

It might be that you have not noticed this discrepancy bro, but reread some of the question to the answers we are given, they all seem to address only the mundane and not the multiple applications we have brought up.

Craig you are one of the ones here who has a understanding in these things, yet you hold reservations to TTR because of the Jesus factor, and I might say you do well to do so because another time line totally negates Christ.

So instead of defending TB's belief should you not rather be defending what you believe concerning Christ? Brother I do not say this to inflame you, but if you sit on your hand as it were, when you have a knowledge of these things is to allow a falsehood to perpetuate itself that just might convince others that TTR is true.

Paul said not to accept ANOTHER gospel then the one that they first received, and bro this is ANOTHER gospel, for it allows for ANOTHER set of scriptures and negates the need for Christ.   

QuoteAt the same time, I can see what you are saying, and I see the misunderstanding of what TB says and what you are thinking he is saying. So I believe you are going to need to slow down because you are already refuting something that TB has already said he doesn't believe. This discussion is going to require a lot of patience on both sides.

Craig TB might state that he does not believe such and such, but the belief in multiple time lines actual then goes against what he says he believes.

TB can say he does not believe multiple time lines negates the Bible, but the fact that he believe in multiple time line where the Bible actually changes still negates the Bible we have in front of us.

I am not a learn man in these things Craig but even I can see this.

willieH: Hi Craig...  :icon_king:

Quote from: SOtW on August 18, 2008, 03:11:26 AM
You are still thinking linearly WillieH. All the 'objections' you have, are true objections found in TB's TTR theology. The problem is the continuation of applying a linear timeline to a God that transcends all time and creation.

Linearly -- schminearly...  :laughing7:  I am dealing with REALITY... the proposal of TB is NOT reality... it is a coulda-woulda-shoulda- things that denies TRUTH, denies SCRIPTURE, and denies CHRIST... eventually arriving at ALL LIVE in ADAM... :rolleye:

GOD is in full view of TIME at ALL TIMES... that is the eternal perspective... and is WHY Jesus was able to say as He stood before men as a MAN Himself, ..."NO MAN hath ascended up into Heaven but HE that came down from Heaven, even the Son of Man which ...IS... in Heaven"...

Thereby maintaining His position on Earth and in Heaven, simulataneously... as a SPIRIT being, and as a FLESHLY being...

This is no COMPLICATED "game" that scientists have figured out with Quantum physics Craig... and is PRIVY to them within their self-glorified INTELLECT!

This is a "meat & potatoes" thing bro... something that ALL can grasp, not some imaginination-filled, scientifically contrived, complicated ILLUSION!

The above is not much of an answer to my questions bro... linear or not... If one "timeline" states something to be truth and another OPPOSES it... then TRUTH is come into question... which is EXACTLY what happened in the Garden... with the extensive knowledge you have, it really surprises me that you do not recognize it, as it has reared its head...

The fact IS, ...we ARE (not hypothetically) IN this "timeline"... we must deal with IT... any other "timeline" is only hypothetical imagination... and is IRRELEVANT to us... even if it were to (which it does not), ...exist...  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Quote from: pneuma on August 18, 2008, 03:37:19 AM
Craig you are one of the ones here who has a understanding in these things, yet you hold reservations to TTR because of the Jesus factor, and I might say you do well to do so because another time line totally negates Christ.

This is EXACTLY what I have stated several times!  :thumbsup:

QuoteThe fact IS, ...we ARE (not hypothetically) IN this "timeline"... we must deal with IT... any other "timeline" is only hypothetical imagination... and is IRRELEVANT to us... even if it were to (which it does not), ...exist... 

Not me.  I'm going to learn how to move sideways. :cloud9:

Haven't you ever wondered what the glorious freedom of the sons of God was?

Quote from: Molly on August 18, 2008, 04:32:24 AM

QuoteThe fact IS, ...we ARE (not hypothetically) IN this "timeline"... we must deal with IT... any other "timeline" is only hypothetical imagination... and is IRRELEVANT to us... even if it were to (which it does not), ...exist... 

Not me.  I'm going to learn how to move sideways. :cloud9:

Haven't you ever wondered what the glorious freedom of the sons of God was?

Yeah... you are a little "sideways" there, sister M...  :laughing7:

The Glorious Freedom of the Sons of God is STILL IN CHRIST, and STILL experienced in THIS LIFE... and is not some far-fetched, and imagined "stargate episode"...  :laughing7:

FREEDOM is created by the TRUTH (John 8:32-36)

Paul--
You said about your atheist friend:
"The point he was making is that a belief in God is fine as long as you do not start saying that science can be used to validate Gods existance."
And of course this verse came to mind:
1 Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

The gist being that "false science" will oppose the Bible, as it has many times. But true science does not. This is why Daniel and his two friends were chosen to serve in the palace. They wanted young men who were:
Daniel 1:4
Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science,
Just a side note there--carry on...I'm interested in everyone's views here!
Joyce :)

The Global Consciousness Project at Princeton University

Random generator circuits (random number generators) operating 24/7, running now for 8 years

Looking at the effect of mind on matter.

When the numbers become non random, that has meaning.

About two hours before the first plane hit the wtc, the network took off--it was not behaving randomly.

They claim they are measuring the ocean of consciousness.


They've looked at 204 major world events and the odds against chance are 300,000 to 1.

51 events were unexpected--yet they saw that about two hours before there is a rise in the network, the whole network begins to change.  This is statistically significant.

They looked at every earthquake of 6 or larger.  They only see the 2 hours before rise happen when the earthquakes happen in populated zones.   

Quote from: pneuma on August 18, 2008, 03:37:19 AM
Craig you are one of the ones here who has a understanding in these things, yet you hold reservations to TTR because of the Jesus factor, and I might say you do well to do so because another time line totally negates Christ.

Pay attention to the discussion, this has already been addressed. You demonstrating you are not either reading what TB has presented, or you are ignoring it, or you don't understand it. Never has another timeline negated Christ, because there is a universal constant of cause, it has been from the very beginning Jesus Christ, because He is God whom through all things have been created. Read the discussion and stop making assumptive conclusions that have already been addressed and answered.

Quote from: willieH on August 18, 2008, 04:01:58 AM
willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Quote from: pneuma on August 18, 2008, 03:37:19 AM
Craig you are one of the ones here who has a understanding in these things, yet you hold reservations to TTR because of the Jesus factor, and I might say you do well to do so because another time line totally negates Christ.

This is EXACTLY what I have stated several times!  :thumbsup:

peacE...

...willieH  :dsunny:

Like Pneuma, you have proved that you do not read the discussion, this has already been answered.

Quote from: pneuma
Craig TB might state that he does not believe such and such, but the belief in multiple time lines actual then goes against what he says he believes.

TB can say he does not believe multiple time lines negates the Bible, but the fact that he believe in multiple time line where the Bible actually changes still negates the Bible we have in front of us.

I am not a learn man in these things Craig but even I can see this.

And like every other discussion you are involved in, you make these conclusions based on your own understanding of what you just seen or heard, and not on what was actually seen or heard. I expressed concern concerning where Jesus fits in, the question was answered. There are universal constants in creation, GOD being one of them. If you do not believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, if you do not believe in Free-Will, you will not understand TTR. Pay attention to the discussion, these things have already been addressed.

Listen, even I am not completely convinced with TTR, and I am far more knowledgable concerning quantum mechanics, have an IQ of 160, among other things learning about God/Scripture/Christianity has been my sole purpose in life since I met Jesus in person (That was when I was 4 years old, I doubt anyone in this forum can say they dedicated their entire conscious life to knowing God.), I have publically stated I have reservations on TTR based on some things but since I do not completely understand quantum, I still have questions for TB myself, I can not myself disagree, only hold reservations until all this has been done. All I can do is say, I am not entirely convinced, but I do not rule out the possibility. There is just no way to disagree unless I completely understand TB's position in order to disagree. So, the fact you have made some affirmations of things TB doesn't believe nor has stated, demonstrates not only are you interpretting what TB is saying by the your limited knowledge and therefore making false conclusions, you also admit you not a learned person and cannot possibly know what TB is talking about and therefore you cannot honestly hope to disagree since you do not know what it is you are disagreeing to!

2 Peter 1:4-9
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

That is the difference between conscious incompetence and unconscious incompetence and I am completely conscious of that which I am incompetent therefore I cannot agree or disagree, only hold reservations until every concern, question and understanding of TB's position is done.

Don't be so quick to point out your assumed errors of TB's position. Be patient and pay attention to the discussion.

I would like to interject some thoughts along this line of reasoning.  Forgive my lack of scriptural references and feel free to refute, but this come to mind and I wanted to share it before I over thought it and started picking my own thoughts apart and then talk myself out of posting.   :laughing7:

I agree that  it is hard to think in a multi-dimensional fashion so I tried to draw upon what truths I might be able to see in this line of theorizing.   Theories are subject to current understanding and the term theory is often misunderstood.   Theory can be observed, but theory can also be a projection of what appears to be possible. 

Observable theory has this quality "It works this way, but it may not be the only way it works" 

Projectional theory is based upon non observable possibilities that have not been proven to be false, but have not currently demonstrated any value to change anything we observe.


Projectional theory should never take the place of observable theory as fact but as possibility.   These are my thoughts on how science should explain how theory actually affects us,  but unfortunatly it rarely is.


Now, the thought of going sideways in time intrigues me enough to contemplate it with the following thoughts.  Some of the links TB posted on Free-Will actually refutes the "Term" of free and reduces our will to the ability to understand, which is more along the line of what scripture tells me.  Please do not focus upon our disagreements of this and read the rest of what I wrote.

So, at the risk of opening that can of worms I simply do not reconcile a choice with being free in a biblical sense.  As I stated earlier the analogies of our human existance such as free people or freedom of or from something are not really applicable because the source of our freedom or lack thereof is a sovereign God that is intent (however he does it) on getting us where ** Edit HE wants us to go  that is scripturally a place that is against our will.


With that said, taking that risk,  I propose the following.

I fully reject the idea that Gods word changes, I think the idea of multiple timelines is not a reasonable cause for Gods word ever changing.   However, God word can be built upon.  Meaning in other versions of history there may be more or less knowledge about God but not different.

If ALL comes out of God and God is in ALL then Gods spirit manifests the entire scope of ultimate existance.  There is not a different God in a different time line.  Because that WOULD be a changed God and a God whos word is different would have to be a different God.

We misunderstand the phrase "ALL things are possible"  because we can propose illogical instances about God that cannot be possible that do not detract from Gods sovereigty.  So proposing an impossibility with God is not an unreasonable proposal when that impossibility is simply the nature of existance.   

God is LOVE  so would it be possible for God to transform to HATE?   We can speculate that he could, but he doesn't,  so we can go down that trail, but I think it is simply impossible as much so as the argument for God making a rock so big that he could not lift it.  Illogic is still an impossibility. 

Here is a verse that supports that.

1Corinthians 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.
So it really does not matter what we can speculate on there is nothing that can be used to say that man or any other being has any chance of being more powerful than God.


So continuing on  I can see a possible sideways movement even within my own life.  I will give this example, in fact I have always been wary of telling people this,  mostly because  the reactions have never really helped to validate it and I have only had to hang onto what I know God has shown me.  So I am glad for the thought process that this thread has caused.  As it actually helps to validate more of what I know.

Multiple time lines all intertwine and I think separate versions of history is also linear thinking, if one timeline cannot affect the other then there cannot be sideways movement and therefore cannot be non linear onlt multiple instances of lineararity (is that a word?)  haha.   It actually is a intellectual cluster saying   "I get a Do Over"

I think intertwining multiple time lines cause a closed loop that increases who we are as we go along.   

When I was within my drug addiction I can look back and actually see that I was much happier than I am now concerning how I felt,  but I did not see what I was doing to those around me.  I lost friends, alienated family and hated people but I was happy.  Christians will try to claim that you have to be miserable in that life and they have no idea  what they are talking about.  If I had died during my drug use I would have died happy, period. 

I have much more turmoil now that I am AWARE of being on a path being drawn to God.   From physical birth we are being dragged by God whether we know it or not.  There are no choices that I made that I willingly made to "change".  I used drugs in the firsty place out of a compelling feeling to belong.  I stopped through a compelling notion that my wife was preganant and it was something I shouldn't do.   People invent the free will action after the fact of something because they want to feel in control, thats all that is. 

I do now willingly refuse drug use because of what I was taught, but that teaching was not of my own, there is no argument for free will  that will tell me differently than what I know in my own life, that is why the "Term" is wrong. 


Where I see the truth of multiple time lines is that I think there is an intertwining of physical reality that God has built for us.  SEE, we misunderstand reality and the physical in the first place.  If there are multiple version of history all going on at the same time, then the plane of existance that they are in is still physical.

I also sense that the multiple versions work together for our correction to build upon what we know.  My past drug use is taken by Christianity and made to be this beacon of death and is made to remain a dark part of my past,  my sin is taken and shaped to be a constant reminder of the possible doom I once faced.

What if the correctional value of multiple time lines has reshaped time so that my past drug use is "not remembered" as a negative and integrated into time as a redemptive value of an experience that humbled and shaped me towards the image of God.

I say that because in my life it is entirely true, I have countless example of positive things that only are taking place in my current "time frame" because of my past "sin"  but I do not see it as shame I remember it as good.



Hope that was worth reading, LOL

Craig,

Thanks for reminding people what has already been covered.

Paul,

We have much we can agree on.  I agree that the multiple timelines are deeply entangled, but feel that Jesus keeps closed loops from getting out of hand.  The paradox between human will and God's Will is very important, but until we get Biblical support for multiple timelines down pat there's no point in even talking about their interaction, for there is no way to address this paradox until the idea of multiple entangled timelines is accepted. 

More on these Biblical issues tomorrow.  Thanks for hanging in there.

willieH: Hi Sotw...:hithere:

I am concerned for you and your view of TTR...

Quote from: SOtW on August 18, 2008, 07:03:49 AM
And like every other discussion you are involved in, you make these conclusions based on your own understanding of what you just seen or heard, and not on what was actually seen or heard. I expressed concern concerning where Jesus fits in, the question was answered. There are universal constants in creation, GOD being one of them. If you do not believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, if you do not believe in Free-Will, you will not understand TTR.

How can you address someone, ANYONE, ...in this way?

As if YOUR PERCEPTIONS are the "end-all of understanding" ...and the rest of the GOD SEEKING people here, are just walking around in a fog...   :omg:

I am proud to note that I do NOT understand UNBIBLICAL doctrines... and have no desire to understand the Babylonian proposals made here...  which are a mythical distraction from REAL, and fruitful discussion...

I do not need to know all the facets of EVOLUTION to know it is of satan...   I recognize it trying to build its tower to HEAVEN...

You mention above that BELIEF in FREE WILL is necessary... (unbiblical)... to understand TTR, another (unbiblical) proposal...   :wacko2:

GOOD!  I for one, do not wish to understand nonsense... just be rid of it...  :dontknow:

QuoteListen, even I am not completely convinced with TTR, and I am far more knowledgable concerning quantum mechanics,  have an IQ of 160, among other things learning about God/Scripture/Christianity has been my sole purpose in life since I met Jesus in person (That was when I was 4 years old, I doubt anyone in this forum can say they dedicated their entire conscious life to knowing God.)

2 Cor 10:12  For we dare NOT MAKE OURSELVES of the number or COMPARE OURSELVES, ...BY... OURSELVES with some that COMMEND THEMSELVES:  but MEASURING THEMSELVES ...BY... THEMSELVES, and COMPARING THEMSELVES ...among THEMSELVES... are NOT WISE...

Don't you know by now that it is known that YOU listing all your supposed "credentials" is a smokescreen you present, which is intended by you to ward off others from questioning YOU?   :dontknow:

We don't need to know (AGAIN) all your accomplishments brother... Its all well and good that you are dedicated to study... and I for one, commend that dedication...

What we need to know is...

A false witness is in the camp... which SELF-notes that HIS THEORY of TTR, is part of the WHOLE ARMOR of GOD...  :mshock:  :thumbdown:

And that HIS THEORY of TTR... negates CHRIST as UNnecessary, ...for eventually in some phantom "timeline", TB makes the claim that  Adam will NOT EAT... Which in turn negates the claims made in GOD's WORD in this "timeline" in which we DO live... that a SAVIOR would even be necessary...  :mshock:

For the witness in our midst, further proposes that NOTHING of this life shall be REMEMBERED, which in turn... deflates this experience to ridiculousness and FUTILITY, full of NEEDLESS SUFFERING, PAIN, and SORROW...

Serving NO PURPOSE whatsoever...  :thumbdown:

Exalt the WORD, do not consider alternative myths to it... 

TTR, is no more than the darkness of paganism appearing in modern form, in modern days... erecting BABYLONIAN ALTERNATIVES to believe in which are NOT in the WORD... and joins EVOLUTION as amongst the fanciest blocks with which IT trys to build its tower to HEAVEN...

THAT is what we need to know Craig... NOT a list of your accolades...

You wish to be a teacher...  then learn to recognize the satan when it is come into your midst...

No Bible school is necessary to recognize satan Craig... IT is seen by those with the eyes of GOD... given sight, to expose IT when IT appears...

IT condescends using ITS self-verified majesty, and IT denounces challenge and avoids those who QUESTION IT...

QuoteDon't be so quick to point out your assumed errors of TB's position. Be patient and pay attention to the discussion.

You need to heed your own advice... Don't join IT brother, answer the questions I asked you...

Reconcile them with the WORD of TRUTH... if you cannot, then IT is thereby identified to you...

Mod Break:

To True Believer

It seems that this topic is either going nowhere OR you want to explore the validity of this proposition OR you full understand the topic and want to share some new revelation.

Whatever the case, we can all see there are oppositions and IMO this may be due to terminolgy or battling to reduce this to simplictic understandable terms.

Now I am open minded and I find this intriguing and want to see all you have to share but I think we have reached an impasse on that.

Do you have the full teaching prepared - you keep promising a next episode that is lacking and possibly will addres questions asked.

We have two choices:

1. Allow you to present it uniterrupted with a 2nd thread of questions/debates or

2. Redirect this to the other forum where we have hidden debates board (Father Love)

Because there is a simplistic focus here, possibly the forum is NOT the best platform.

We can even keep it public there if you find an appropriate board to use with the same 2 thread approach.

Please let me know.

Blessings

QuotePay attention to the discussion, this has already been addressed. You demonstrating you are not either reading what TB has presented, or you are ignoring it, or you don't understand it. Never has another timeline negated Christ, because there is a universal constant of cause, it has been from the very beginning Jesus Christ, because He is God whom through all things have been created. Read the discussion and stop making assumptive conclusions that have already been addressed and answered.

Craig just because TB states that another time line does not negate Christ, the very thought of a time line where no one ever sinned does in fact negate Jesus coming in this time line and dieing for sin. Thus negating Jesus Christ.


So what this theory actually does is take away Christ's victory for us over sin and give that victory to US in another time line where we never sinned. So in fact it is this other time line that get the victory and not the Father through Jesus Christ. Thus if another time line exists there is another way to the Father then through Christ.

So TB or you can state all day long that it does not negate Christ but the facts tell a different story.

And I really cannot see how others here cannot see this.

QuoteListen, even I am not completely convinced with TTR, and I am far more knowledgable concerning quantum mechanics, have an IQ of 160, among other things learning about God/Scripture/Christianity has been my sole purpose in life since I met Jesus in person (That was when I was 4 years old, I doubt anyone in this forum can say they dedicated their entire conscious life to knowing God.),

Oh my, Craig if I so desired to do as Paul did, my pedigree as it were would exceed yours by almost double, as I am almost double your age. But such things Paul calls foolish speaking so I won't go into detail on it. For it really does not matter how long one has known the Lord for those in the 11 hour receive the same pay as those that laboured much longer in the heat of the day.

Mod Break (again)

Guys and Gals, let us see if we can accommodate TB in the suggestion above.  We unfortunately are into another slinging match and I am taking no sides here.

Let us pause for responses by TB and see where we go from here.  We can take the thread down if TB decides to take it to FLf.

RELAX

Blessings

I'm with Bernie about this thread stopping until True Believer has had a chance to respond, post more, or to get with Bernie about moving this over to another forum where there might be a little less nonsense.  But I've just wanted to reply briefly to something that's repeatedly come up that I'm growing increasingly annoyed by.

Quote from: pneuma on August 18, 2008, 05:09:37 PM
Craig just because TB states that another time line does not negate Christ, the very thought of a time line where no one ever sinned does in fact negate Jesus coming in this time line and dieing for sin. Thus negating Jesus Christ.

What if the alternative time line were a product of the Blood of Christ rather than separate from Him in the way that you and WillieH have been supposing since Colossians 1 says that all things are created in Him?  Jesus said "I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU"  Time and space are interchangeable to scientists and anyone with a little imagination.

QuoteJesus said "I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU"  Time and space are interchangeable to scientists and anyone with a little imagination.

may I ask what you think this place is?.are ya saying this is a place of different time lines?

Quote from: martincisneros on August 18, 2008, 08:35:03 PM

What if the alternative time line were a product of the Blood of Christ rather than separate from Him in the way that you and WillieH have been supposing since Colossians 1 says that all things are created in Him?  Jesus said "I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU"  Time and space are interchangeable to scientists and anyone with a little imagination.

:mshock:

:Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Taffy on August 18, 2008, 08:45:10 PM
may I ask what you think this place is?.are ya saying this is a place of different time lines?

Again, I'm hoping this thread is slowing down a bit until True Believer can get back to us about some of the things that Bernie has brought up.  I don't want to jump into superstring theory here, but with regards to the immortality that we're promised, I do believe that the current space-time demension is entirely too inadequate and is extremely fragile for what awaits us.  That's why the bodily resurrection is during that transition between the old and the new heavens and earth.  And in saying what I've said, I've not meant any of this to minimize anyone else's views of resurrection.  I just believe that resurrection is muti-layered, progressive, fluid, and ongoing and while it would include anything else that anyone else may believe about it, it'll still ultimately be bodily.

I'm preparing a response for the moderator(s), but am busy with mundane matters for the moment.

Please pause the thread until I return.

TB

Quote from: martincisneros on August 18, 2008, 08:59:44 PM

Quote from: Taffy on August 18, 2008, 08:45:10 PM
may I ask what you think this place is?.are ya saying this is a place of different time lines?

Again, I'm hoping this thread is slowing down a bit until True Believer can get back to us about some of the things that Bernie has brought up.  I don't want to jump into superstring theory here, but with regards to the immortality that we're promised, I do believe that the current space-time demension is entirely too inadequate and is extremely fragile for what awaits us.  That's why the bodily resurrection is during that transition between the old and the new heavens and earth.  And in saying what I've said, I've not meant any of this to minimize anyone else's views of resurrection.  I just believe that resurrection is muti-layered, progressive, fluid, and ongoing and while it would include anything else that anyone else may believe about it, it'll still ultimately be bodily.

No worries..i believe we see things from a different perspective, which doesnt make what we see to be wrong either.

I leave it there..im done with the thread.
:icon_flower:

Actually Taf it is TB not PT.

TB PM whichever mods you see online or send a PM to all mods at the top of the screen is a link.

Blessings

Quote from: SeekerSA on August 19, 2008, 12:50:55 AM
Actually Taf it is TB not PT.

TB PM whichever mods you see online or send a PM to all mods at the top of the screen is a link.

Blessings

Indeed ,apologies TB
:icon_flower:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 17, 2008, 09:18:28 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2008, 06:43:38 PM
(speaking of aliens, I assume you've seen the new crop circle on milk hill, England, drawn on 8/8/08 in the shape of a 1000 foot figure 8?)

Yeah, that was me.  I've got an even bigger one in mind that I'm still working out the algorithms of :idea2:

Nearly crashed my ship on that one though.  That's all we'd need, huh?  Another Roswell :eyebrow:

:Sparkletooth: All done. :happy3: