If there is indeed a God in heaven, the one thing I know for certain is that He is better than I am. If any truth is self-evident it is this. Consequently, any doctrine derived from natural religion or revealed religion that is contradictory to this is false. I would not create a life to ultimately make that life a curse for all eternity – neither would God. I am not morally superior to God. This I know to be self-evident and true.
Alas, the other side would say that God does not make any life a curse forever either, a person does it via 'free will'.
cp
Isaiah 25;
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people,
and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces;
and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
I'd like to briefly address the free-will issue, but I'm lazy and I don't think I can say it any better than this.
"We talk of free will. We refer the Holy Spirit as a gentleman who will not violate that will. Picture yourself in the front yard of your home with your three-year-old child playing in the driveway. You lose sight of her for a moment as she runs toward the road to retrieve a ball. You look up and see a car racing down the street. What is your response? Do you calmly call out to her, 'Please stop running dear, there's a car coming,' and leave the choice to her? Of course not! You scream out at the top of your lungs with a passion and urgency you've never known before: 'STOP!' You then leap from the lawn chair and run like the wind, faster than you have ever ran before, and you pull your child out of harm's way, without giving a single thought to any supposed sanctity of her will! You may be out of shape and not used to running, you may be in your bare feet running over some broken glass strewn on the sidewalk, but you don't feel a thing! Love for that child drives you beyond yourself, beyond your strength, beyond your limits! And this describes only the love of a parent for a child! How much greater is the love of the Father for those He has made in His own image and likeness? Our love for our children, though deep, passionate and true, is nothing compared to His infinite, eternal, unchangeable love. Our love is but a drop as compared to the vast and boundless ocean of love that is God!
"Think with me for a moment. If God were to grant you an answer to one prayer, what would that prayer be? No doubt the sensitive, thoughtful Christian would pray that God would finally save all humanity, that each and every person would eventually be holy and happy forever. Doesn't your heart leap at the very thought of this? Now if we, who possess only a drop of love, can imagine and desire such a glorious and noble end as this, is it possible for God to desire less? Is it not His love that we reflect? And if He truly and sincerely desires it, will He not achieve it? Is it conceivable that He has put in place and ordained a plan and purpose where the vast majority of His children (or any for that matter) are finally rejected and forever consigned to agonizing torture, pain and misery? The most evil, depraved person who has ever lived would not do this, yet we attribute it to God!
"Though it seems like all hell is continually breaking loose around us, infinite love, which possesses both limitless wisdom and irresistible power will find a way! Of this there is no doubt!" Whatever Became Of Melanie?
Quote from: claypot on April 09, 2010, 06:57:36 PM
Alas, the other side would say that God does not make any life a curse forever either, a person does it via 'free will'.
cp
I posted this a while ago because the truth of it struck me quite hard...
"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want free-will to be given me... But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him." - Martin Luther
I believe that God, being the Almighty, knows what choices we will make in regards to what He puts in our lives. He will give us nothing we cannot handle, and will give us the things that will eventually bring us to Him, be it before or after the physical death. We are ALL in His hands, hence NONE can be plucked from Him and his love.
Here's the link from the quoted post and my thoughts on it...
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7670.0
Quote from: Syndicated on April 15, 2010, 07:56:18 PM
I believe that God, being the Almighty, knows what choices we will make in regards to what He puts in our lives. He will give us nothing we cannot handle, and will give us the things that will eventually bring us to Him, be it before or after the physical death. We are ALL in His hands, hence NONE can be plucked from Him and his love.
And why Synd, does the Almighty know what choices we will make?
It is because it is HE who works in us to do and to will of His good pleasure. If this is true then it is even more truthful to say that He not only knows what choices we will make, but it is HIM making the choices within our very Being.
God is not some outside entity. He is Life and life is working in us cancelling out death.
It is not us and God or us and Satan or us and .........................it is GOD!!!!!!!! We have to get this 'us and .......' mentality out of our system IMO to see what and who God really is.
cp
Amen claypot, I have this same problem sometimes. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is totally in control. Even though I know that it is God who is working in me and doing all the works I still feel, say, and act, like I am doing things myself sometimes, knowing that I don't. Is that crazy or what?
CHB
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "(R)All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth
Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The key to walking in the spirit on the earth is that we are the conduit that the authority of God passes through for his will and his purpose to be done in this realm. I have authority to rule and reign on this earth. It's not carnal, it's spiritual and it's "His" authority activating in and through me to redirect and transform life in this realm.
We do play a role in the authority, but only when we finally lay down knowledge and live in life.
Nathan, what role do we play? We are vessels in the hands of God. We are but clay. It is true that God uses us and works in us to accomplish his will but I don't see us having a role except to be a vessel for God to work through.
CHB
Quote from: Nathan on April 16, 2010, 05:59:32 PM
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "(R)All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth
Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The key to walking in the spirit on the earth is that we are the conduit that the authority of God passes through for his will and his purpose to be done in this realm. I have authority to rule and reign on this earth. It's not carnal, it's spiritual and it's "His" authority activating in and through me to redirect and transform life in this realm.
We do play a role in the authority, but only when we finally lay down knowledge and live in life.
Quote from: CHB on April 16, 2010, 06:34:38 PM
Nathan, what role do we play? We are vessels in the hands of God. We are but clay. It is true that God uses us and works in us to accomplish his will but I don't see us having a role except to be a vessel for God to work through.
CHB
Well asked CHB, and I'm not picking on you Nathan but I was responding when CHB's post popped up.
Nathan, to fully lay down knowledge, as you say, is also a work of God in us IMO. The role we play is, as CHB put it, is to be the vessel. We don't play a role and God plays a role, it is God who is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. I don't necessarily see God as all in all yet as I see the process from my 'now' perspective but I do see all things as 'of Him, to Him and through Him' as Paul says in Romans 11.36.
cp
Quote from: CHB on April 16, 2010, 06:34:38 PM
Nathan, what role do we play? We are vessels in the hands of God. We are but clay. It is true that God uses us and works in us to accomplish his will but I don't see us having a role except to be a vessel for God to work through.
CHB
sorry to butt in, i went thru a calvinist phase im so glad im out of that, while i disagree with the ""freewill"" thing, i still see and KNOW we have an active participation in our process.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence,
add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; ............................LOVE!~
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
we are clay, some clay needs more pounding to get all the air out..... :bgdance:
i am so glad i have come back to participating with my Father, and HE still gets all thr glory.
hope that makes sense....
NOW, let me go find someone God can bless thru me.
wooooooooooooot
chuckt
Jeeze you guys . . .this is such an awesome thread you're making here. Really great questions and pure hearts . . . it's gonna make me cry!!!
Okay, as my relationship with the Father changes from infancy, to puberty, to young adulthood to mature partner and bride, I also see my roles change along the way as well. Remember that fairly popular verse in the OT that states our weapons will be turned into plowshares? For me, that's saying that my relationship will mature from a young adult, who is one who means well, but is more aggressive in defending the Word and taking the land and fighting the battles and sparring, an all of that. It all has a purpose and a place, but the deeper we grow into the Father, as maturity sets in, our
mindsets go from a fighter to a planter. God transformed my mind from one that debates truth, to one that plants it. A plowshare is a tool for planting.
I see my role now as one who plants spiritual seeds of truth in the soil of another who is receptive to what's being seen. Another role we mature into is one of a king. A king simply gives the decree and it's immediately carried out. A king accomplishes anything he wishes from a "seated" position. Which is for me, a position of rest, rather than war. Yes, we are clay pots. And God has a purpose for each pot. We are also living stones. God has a purpose for each stone.
He couldn't use Paul for his kingdom until he matured him into a place where Paul could receive that which he was to plant in others. It wasn't a horse he was knocked off of, it was a donkey, a symbol of stubbornness. The blindness shows that spiritually, as educated as he was, he still completely missed the message of Jesus all together. But how many days was he blind? Three. The message of resurrection will always factor in the removal of the veil. It's all according to pattern.
excellent Nathan :2thumbs:
If I am maturing the fruit is seeing that God is working in us, His creation, to do and to will of His good pleasure. This is no way takes away from the fact that I am doing things. It is I yet not I but Christ that dwells in me. It is me doing, it is God operating in me. It is not a me and God thing, it is God.
I am vessel, a conduit for God. I and all creation are Gods expression of Himself. When we depart from these bodies of clay I think we will experience a oneness that would blow our minds if our minds were carnal but being that they will be the minds of Christ we will survive.
This oneness will make everything we are experiencing now, make sense.
It is not a God and us scenario IMO, it is God and we are the living vessels of His good pleasure and will. This production is all of God, written, produced and directed by God Himself and the two actors are Adam and Jesus.
cp
Quote from: CHB on April 16, 2010, 05:08:14 PM
Amen claypot, I have this same problem sometimes. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is totally in control. Even though I know that it is God who is working in me and doing all the works I still feel, say, and act, like I am doing things myself sometimes, knowing that I don't. Is that crazy or what?
CHB
"I, yet not I". :bigGrin:
A friend of mine who is a pastor and has been in this much longer than I shared a story that happened to him on this issue of who's working and who's resting. Some comments made here reminds me of it and how it helped me understand how all of this fits as well.
This guy had his church in Texas at the time where they get very little rain. His church was fairly new and it had a flat roof which had a 2 foot concrete edgewall that went around the top. One spring they had gotten a ton of rain and during a Sunday morning service this pastor had noticed something wasn't quite right with his ceiling. It looked odd to him. He never thought to say much about it, but later that afternoon he was at home and got a call that he was needed at the church immediately.
As he pulled up, he was encountering a lot of people who were extremely panicked. They led him into the sanctuary and now, he was seeing why things looked a little off earlier in the day, the ceiling was slowly sinking in. It was starting to leak. But this was only half the problem. They ran him up a ladder and to his shock, he saw the entire roof of his church was one huge lake. Because it was Texas, when they built the building, they didn't allow for any major drain-off for any kind of rain and now, there was a 3 foot pond sitting on the top of his church.
A long story short . .what they did was, they brought in these 12 inch diameter pvc piping and fastened a number of them to the ceiling of the sanctuary. They then bore 12 inch holes out the sides of the building and connected the piping fastend to the ceiling to piping running out the side by simply attaching an elbow.
Then they went up top and drilled holes over where the pvc pipe was fastened beneath. And in the matter of an hour, the entire lake flushed out through the pipes and harmlessly on the ground, saving the entire building.
When it was all over, he said he felt God's voice beginning to speak to him. "How did it work?" He answered GREAT!! It worked perfectly! But he said the question wouldn't leave him. 'How did the PVC pipe work? And his answer was the same. "It was awesome, I was able to save my church with minimal damage and the pipe worked superbly!
Then he said the voice came to him a third time saying . ."You are the PVC pipe, the water is my spirit being poured out from my house. How did the PVC pipe work?
Then he realized the question wasn't asking what he thought it was. So he asked the Lord, "How am I to answer this?" And the spirit spoke to him saying, the PVC pipe didn't work, it didn't labor, it only did what it was fashioned to do. What it did do was, it "functioned." And "that's" the difference between one who walks in labor and one who walks in the spirit.
I still do the things ministry requires of me. I still preach. I still worship, we still take up offerings. But the difference now is, none of those things are singled out, held up above another or honored in such a way that we lose sight of our purpose. We are not to labor in our own efforts to manifest his will in our lives or those around us. It's all based on rest, the person. When I enter into the person and position of rest, I also step into the power and authority that comes with it. It's as you stated. It's not about ministry. It's about Christ ministering to others "through" me, with no added labor on my part.
Sorry it was kinda long, but it really does help me understand my role. I'm to simply function where God has brought me to and I'm to do it in such a way that I can remain pliable enough so that when he moves me into another place in him, I don't have to back-track my belief system and try to worm my way out of a philosohy that wasn't originally intended to be a permanent one.
If my role is to be a slave, I'll be a slave with Joy. If my role changes from a slave to a king, I'll be flexible enough to know that in order to be a king, my nature still needs to respect such a role as a slave would and not become pious about any of it. May God keep our wineskins alive and flexible as we change from one function in him to the next.
Hi Nathan,
I liked the story about the pvc pipe. While reading it, I thought of myself as the pvc pipe which was fashioned and positioned so as to let the water flow through it. I think we are like this pvc pipe. God fashions us and positions us right where he wants us to be in order for us to accomplish his will. Like you said, just thinking about this brings tears to my eyes. It magnifies God and makes me feel like a dust particle.
CHB
Tis why God so loves the world. He loves to laugh and cry and feel.
cp
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2010, 12:19:50 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 16, 2010, 05:08:14 PM
Amen claypot, I have this same problem sometimes. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is totally in control. Even though I know that it is God who is working in me and doing all the works I still feel, say, and act, like I am doing things myself sometimes, knowing that I don't. Is that crazy or what?
CHB
"I, yet not I". :bigGrin:
jabcat, It seems Paul did the same thing doesn't it?
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2010, 12:19:50 AM
"I, yet not I". :bigGrin:
Quote from: CHB on April 17, 2010, 04:47:26 PM
jabcat, It seems Paul did the same thing doesn't it?
CHB
Seems like God is trying to show us that we and He are one in some spiritual way. Jesus went to great lengths to express the same thing and if we are in Him then where does that leaves us?
cp