removed
Try this first , good luck
http://sigler.org/eby/eby_revelation.htm
John Preston Eby's works on truest meanings of revelation I have ever found
What "second coming?"
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 01, 2010, 05:24:47 PM
What "second coming?"
First the physical, then the Spiritual.
Well He already did that. Is doing it, and will do that.
Quote from: junkbunny on September 05, 2010, 10:24:30 PM
Hi Micah, I'd appreciate if you could give me links to some reading material that supports your view :) Thank you.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/ and The Bible
Quote from: junkbunny on September 06, 2010, 01:34:00 AM
Thankyou for the link. :)
Not to be offensive, but I think pretty much every Christian would give the Bible as text that supports their view - and as we know they're not all universalists. The Bible apparently supports a range of views, not just yours.
You seem arrogant in your posts (or maybe it's just me), and I'd appreciate if you'd be more clear and explanatory in your statements in the future - aside from the link you've given, your replies to my post have been quite unhelpful.
It is not my intention to arrogant. I asked where is this "second coming" in the Bible you ask about? I find no second coming in the Bible, and that is not a view, that is a truth.
Hi JB, not to butt in here, but I think what Micah is referring to is the wonderful study done by Eby on the 'second coming,' called, "Looking for his Appearing." It's well worth the read. Here's a sample--
On the day of Pentecost Christ came again as the Comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of Truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He DWELLS WITH YOU, and shall be IN YOU. I will not leave you comfortless (orphans): I WILL COME UNTO YOU. Yet A little while, and the world sees me no more; but YOU SEE ME: because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I IN YOU" (Jn. 14:16-20).
In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.
Like a choir of many voices and as the sound of many waters, the testimony of the Word of God resounds with abundant and stunning and inescapable evidence that the coming of Christ is not a single event, but includes many different manifestations. His coming to us is a many-sided experience. To multitudes He appears as Saviour. They find Him at the crossroads of their lives. He becomes their salvation but they never venture any deeper to know Him intimately. They have only a superficial knowledge of Him. To others He appears as Chief Shepherd and Bridegroom. These hear His voice and are moved by His love, and follow on to know Him in deeper measures of intimacy and union. To others He appears as a Thief. He comes into their world uninvited and unannounced, He overtakes them unexpectedly and breaks up their life style and smashes their religious games. And unto others He appears as Fire, consuming their hay, wood, and stubble, eliminating by the spirit of burning all that is of self and not of God. The coming of the Lord is as many-faceted as the most dazzling crystal of earth or the most beautiful diamond known to man. In the Old Testament, the rabbis were often confused by the seeming contradictions in the descriptions of the coming of the Messiah. In some of the passages the Messiah was described as coming as a Suffering Servant to be wounded for transgressions and bruised for iniquities. In other passages He was coming as a Conqueror to rule and to defeat the enemies of the people of God. The people asked their scholars for an answer to this seeming contradiction. The rabbis would often go so far as to say that two Messiahs were coming. They were wrong; the same Messiah was coming twice. But more than that! Yea, a thousand times more! The same Messiah comes five, ten, thirty, ten thousand times, in as many and varied ways and manners as there are dealings and operations of God to bewrought in the lives of men and in the destiny of nations upon this earth. My earnest prayer to God is that the spirit of wisdom and revelation may somehow make forever plain to all who read these halting lines that we have seen too limited a vision of the truth, but bringing all the facets together, there is the fuller view where it readily appears that there are many-splendored dimensions to HIS COMING.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking1.htm
In a few words, it contains the belief that God will first rapture the true church then that there will be 7 years of tribulations under the world-leading antichrist - a satan-possessed individual - and then Jesus and the church will appear on the mount of Olives and break it in two before destroying the united armies of the world which came to destroy Israel.
God will then destroy the earth with fire - throw His glorious creation in the garbage - throw His failed image-bearers in hell and party in Heavens with the chosen ones!
A lot of imagination and few biblical truth.
:laughing7:
CHB
Hi junkbunny. I'm somewhere "in the middle". I appreciate, have benefited from, and believe much of Brother Eby's writings. On the other hand, I certainly am not straight down the line orthodox in my views, as in believing all the "Left Behind" scenarios.
Summarily, I certainly do believe Jesus is and will be among us, the ecclesia. I also believe He will use a company of believers, specially empowering them, to help bring the others in - whether one calls them the ecclesia, the overcomers, or the manifest sons. But - and here's where I depart from many in UR - I believe Jesus will personally appear and be present to usher in the next age. That we will indeed "see Him as He is". That we won't be guessing at what He's up to, He will commission and empower us to "rule and reign" WITH Him.
I guess I'm one, that though God has brought me out of orthodoxy and shown me some "other things", still doesn't believe there's absolutely one "main accepted teaching" that I have to adhere to, to make me a "UR believer in good standing" :laughing7:. (For instance, I don't believe all are saved right now, i.e., the "Gospel of Inclusion". I believe as Jesus said, we must be born again [spiritually renewed from above]; and per Paul, if we believe and confess/call on the name of the Lord, we WILL BE saved - some now, the rest later.)
Anyway, some scriptures I consider;
Then as they were looking intently into the sky while He was going, notice, two men in white attire stood beside them, who also said, "People of Galilee, why do you stand here looking into the sky? This Yesu who was taken up away from you into the sky, will come like this, in the manner that you have gazed at Him going into the sky". Acts 1:11
...we can have faith that in the same way, by means of Yesu, God will lead forward together with Him those who have fallen asleep. For this we are saying to you by the authority of the Master's Word, that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence [at the beginning of the last Age] shall by no means surpass those who have fallen asleep. For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at the shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed One will first rise up. ....we will always be together with the Master. Therefore you must be continually encouraging one another with these words!
and to be continually waiting for His Son from the heavens, whom He has awakened from among the dead, Yesu, the One who is going to rescue us from the coming Anger...
For who is our hope or joy or winner's crown for boasting? Is it not even you, in front of our Master Yesu at His Presence [at the beginning of the Last Age]? I Thessaloninans 1,3,4 The Christian Bible
I KNOW - people have all kinds of different beliefs and interpretations of scriptures. I've read them and heard them. I'm saying what I believe and understand, after thought and examination. However, these are things to not argue or divide over. **Jesus, Savior of the world. Living God, Savior of all men, especially believers. Charge THESE THINGS and TEACH. Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you. Js. 1:27
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Quaesitor on September 06, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
In a few words, it contains the belief that God will first rapture the true church then that there will be 7 years of tribulations under the world-leading antichrist - a satan-possessed individual - and then Jesus and the church will appear on the mount of Olives and break it in two before destroying the united armies of the world which came to destroy Israel.
God will then destroy the earth with fire - throw His glorious creation in the garbage - throw His failed image-bearers in hell and party in Heavens with the chosen ones!
A lot of imagination and few biblical truth.
a very to the point synopsis .... love it!! :thumbsup:
proverbs
19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: 20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
What is this bag of money? is this the reward that God will give us? What is the reward that God speaks about throughout the bible? is it not the crown of rightoeusness of infinite value?
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee
John 14
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Before anyone take me wrong, I too, believe that Jesus will come again to reign and put every powers and dominations under His feet.
What I believe though, is that it won't happen like in the imagination of Tim Lahaye.
Good clarification. That's what I said too, re: the "Left Behind" description. :thumbsup:
In the parable of the wedding feast, in Matthew 22:1-14, the ones who were first bidden to attend refused to come, and mistreated the messengers, and slew them, and when the king heard of it, he sent his armies to destroy their city. An application of this part of the parable to Jews in the first century is hard to miss. The Romans armies carried out the will of God.
Then the guests are sought in the highways, and both good and bad are brought in, to be guests at the wedding.
Matthew 22:11-14
Now the king came in to see the guests; and among them he discovered one who was not wearing a wedding-robe.
`My friend,' he said, `how is it that you came in here without a wedding robe?'
The man stood speechless. Then the king said to the servants, "`Bind him hand and foot and fling him into the darkness outside: there will be the weeping aloud and the gnashing of teeth.'
For there are many called, but few chosen.
It is questionable whether any of the varieties of dispensationalism would be suitable as a wedding garment, but IMO, the same applies to preterism. Both those viewpoints propose interpretations of the Olivet Discourse of Jesus, and Zechariah's prophecy of the Mount of Olives becoming cleaved in the midst, along with other prophecies. Dispensationalism says that they are yet to be fulfilled in a future 7 year tribulation, and preterism says they were fulfilled already in 70 AD. They are opposite interpretations, which is depicted by Zechariah's prophecy about the two halves of the Mount of Olives moving in opposite directions.
I suggest the Mount of Olives becoming cleaved in the midst, as Zechariah described, represents these opposite interpretations of the Olivet Discourse of Jesus. Zechariah addresses the church, which is represented by Jerusalem, and says, flee to the valley created between the two halves of the Mount of Olives, when it is cleaved, and half of it moves to the north, and the other half moves to the south. This clearly indicates we need to apply the Olivet Discourse, and Zechariah's prophecy, to the present age, rather than a future one, or one that is already past. As one goes from Jerusalem towards the Mount of Olives, on the left will be the half of the mountain that represents preterism, and on the right, the half of the mountain that represents dispensationalism. The law says, "Ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left." [Deuteronomy 5:32; 28:14; Joshua 23:6]
The mount of Olives is a long ridge east of Jerusalem, and the various peaks and bumps along the ridge could represent various divisions of preterism and dispensationalism, on the north: partial preterism, "transmillenialism," hyperpreterism, etc., and on the south: progressive dispensationalism, classical dispensationalism, revised dispensationalism, mid-acts dispensationalism, ultradispensationalism, etc.
Those who heed Zechariah's prophecy will turn neither to the right, nor to the left. The preferred way to go is in between. Zechariah said, "ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;... yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." [Zechariah 14:5]
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gave advice about clothes.
Matthew 24:18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Doug
It is the wicked and/or wickedness who will be 'raptured'--that is, removed--from this earth. God's people will inherit the earth, and God's kingdom will fill the whole earth.
Prov 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
Prov 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
Prov 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
Prov 3:25 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.
Prov 3:26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Rev 5:10
"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Num 14:21 "But as truly as I live, all the EARTH shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
Isa 11:9 "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the EARTH shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."
Hab 2:14 "For the EARTH shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."
Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
2 Thes 1:7 " And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
Psa 37 10For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
John 14
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.(Thinktank)
Joh 14:3 And, if I go, and prepare a place for you, again, am I coming, and will take you home unto––myself, that, where, I, am, ye also, may be.(Rotherham)
Joh 14:3 and if I should go, and should prepare for you a place, again I am coming, and will receive you to myself; so that where am I, also you may be.(Emphatic Diag)
Joh 14:3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be; YLT)
My point is rather than meaning a second time coming, it is more that one or two or three comings, He is ALWAYS coming again.
Quote from: MicahHe is ALWAYS coming again.
I'm wondering if this is true only for believers.
To the Jews he says, [Mat 23] Your house is left unto you desolate. You shall not see me henceforth until...
And, maybe, he has not even come the first time, yet, for the wicked--[because they are too blind/evil to see him?]
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2010, 07:27:44 AM
John 14
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.(Thinktank)
Joh 14:3 And, if I go, and prepare a place for you, again, am I coming, and will take you home unto––myself, that, where, I, am, ye also, may be.(Rotherham)
Joh 14:3 and if I should go, and should prepare for you a place, again I am coming, and will receive you to myself; so that where am I, also you may be.(Emphatic Diag)
Joh 14:3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be; YLT)
My point is rather than meaning a second time coming, it is more that one or two or three comings, He is ALWAYS coming again.
To me he is always with us through his holy spirit. But we will not see him again as the disciples saw him on the mount of transfiguration, until the end, when he returns to receive us into himself, ready for the marriage.
What the disciples saw on the mount of transfiguration was a VISION.
Mat 17:9 And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2010, 08:06:25 PM
What the disciples saw on the mount of transfiguration was a VISION.
Mat 17:9 And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'
Yes, but it is a vision because it is something that happened
out of due time [before its time].
"vision"G3705
οραμα
horamahor'-am-ah
From G3708;
something gazed at, that is,
a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.
G3708
οράω
horaōhor-ah'-o
Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is,
(by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold,
perceive, see, take heed.
What does that mean?
Is the mount of transfiguration the same as mount of Olives?
I dont know, possibly.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2010, 08:31:45 PM
What does that mean?
It means they weren't halucinating [as you might if you were on drugs, for instance]. They were seeing something that was real but they were seeing it before it happened in time as we understand time. That's why Jesus tells them not to speak of it until its time has come.
If something is revealed before its due time, it is considered to be supernatural. But, that doesn't mean it isn't REAL.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
"manifested"G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318;
to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth),
shew (self).
"manifest"To show or demonstrate plainly;
reveal
To me for now means that Jesus will return with his saints upon the mount of olives and destroy the wicked.
The transfiguration was a vision of that happening when God will return with his saints to excecute judgment on all ungodly.
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2010, 09:25:08 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2010, 08:31:45 PM
What does that mean?
It means they weren't halucinating [as you might if you were on drugs, for instance]. They were seeing something that was real but they were seeing it before it happened in time as we understand time. That's why Jesus tells them not to speak of it until its time has come.
If something is revealed before its due time, it is considered to be supernatural. But, that doesn't mean it isn't REAL.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
"manifested"
G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).
"manifest"
To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal
Never said "halucinating " or nothing about drugs, it was a vison, something seen. They all saw the very thing that Peter saw with out a vision Mat 16:16 and Simon Peter answering said, `Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2010, 09:34:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2010, 09:25:08 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2010, 08:31:45 PM
What does that mean?
It means they weren't halucinating [as you might if you were on drugs, for instance]. They were seeing something that was real but they were seeing it before it happened in time as we understand time. That's why Jesus tells them not to speak of it until its time has come.
If something is revealed before its due time, it is considered to be supernatural. But, that doesn't mean it isn't REAL.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
"manifested"
G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).
"manifest"
To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal
Never said "halucinating " or nothing about drugs, it was a vison, something seen. They all saw the very thing that Peter saw with out a vision Mat 16:16 and Simon Peter answering said, `Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'
Just wanted to clarify because TT referred to seeing him again as the disciples saw him--which, although to them it was a vision, since it had not yet been made manifest, is the resurrected Christ.
:cloud9: Agreeing with Micah.....He has come, He is coming, He will come.....Blessings....
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send at my request, will teach you everything, and will bring to your memories all that I have said to you. Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again.
Selah.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 09, 2010, 02:44:16 AM
Selah.
I'm confused, I thought you said there was no second coming? Or have you learned differently since then?
Learning in a short space is good, it means one is flexible and open to change.
Let me respond TT, and then of course, Micah may as well.
To me, the questions are in the details. I too believe Jesus came, went away, sent the Comfortor, indwells us through the Comfortor. As I see it, here's where it gets "iffy".
Some believe Jesus will never again be present in His glorified body. Then some of those believe He comes, comes, and comes again - in the midst of the saints, through events, etc. - not literally. Still others believe He went away, sent the Comfortor, then He will come again "just as you see Him go away". Then lines are drawn.
I'm a "mixture" - a "hybrid". :laughing7:, and I understand some see it differently. I believe all of it except the first line. I believe He came, went away, sent the Comfortor (and indwells us in that manner, and is spiritually amongst us). I believe in a sense He "visits" us often, coming and coming again through special manifestations and events, etc. But I still believe that's different than a time we will literally find ourselves in His direct, physical(ly glorified) Presence - the resurrection - the dead in Christ will rise, we will meet Him, etc. Then He will usher in the next age through the ecclesia/first-fruits/manifest sons, who will rule and reign with Him.
I think even though some may believe (even parts of) this scenario, they are hesitant to call it a "second coming", because they believe He is often returning. I just see it as various types of returning perhaps, and that there is still to be a major re-appearing that won't be missed or guessed about. My :2c:.
The butterfly has left the cocoon.
It's about time to fly!
What a comeback Dave! I can count on you. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2010, 03:08:03 AM
I'm a "mixture" - a "hybrid".
Some might even call me a mutt. :pointlaugh:
Jesus often appeared to man as the pre-incarnate God; Angel of the Lord before his "first coming" as the incarnate. But the incarnate coming was still a special appearance, even amongst his many appearances already. So it stands to reason that a God who does not change would be able to still make appearances in many ways, even physical, and still have a reserved special appearance where he comes down with his saints behind, battle lines drawn, swords blazing forth in the mighty charge as he swoops down and sunders the serpent's presence and flings him into the pit! Sitting on the throne, and calling out to the whole of creation: "BEHOLD! I - AM - GOD!"
But of course, I'm not one to put the infinite God, into a finite box when it comes to his appearances on our worldly stage. :)
"Some believe Jesus will never again be present in His glorified body" Jabcat
Just what is "His glorified body?"
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2010, 03:08:03 AM
Let me respond TT, and then of course, Micah may as well.
To me, the questions are in the details. I too believe Jesus came, went away, sent the Comfortor, indwells us through the Comfortor. As I see it, here's where it gets "iffy".
Some believe Jesus will never again be present in His glorified body. Then some of those believe He comes, comes, and comes again - in the midst of the saints, through events, etc. - not literally. Still others believe He went away, sent the Comfortor, then He will come again "just as you see Him go away". Then lines are drawn.
I'm a "mixture" - a "hybrid". :laughing7:, and I understand some see it differently. I believe all of it except the first line. I believe He came, went away, sent the Comfortor (and indwells us in that manner, and is spiritually amongst us). I believe in a sense He "visits" us often, coming and coming again through special manifestations and events, etc. But I still believe that's different than a time we will literally find ourselves in His direct, physical(ly glorified) Presence - the resurrection - the dead in Christ will rise, we will meet Him, etc. Then He will usher in the next age through the ecclesia/first-fruits/manifest sons, who will rule and reign with Him.
I think even though some may believe (even parts of) this scenario, they are hesitant to call it a "second coming", because they believe He is often returning. I just see it as various types of returning perhaps, and that there is still to be a major re-appearing that won't be missed or guessed about. My :2c:.
What "comings were these?"
Mat 28:10 Then saith Jesus to them, `Fear ye not, go away, tell to my brethren that they may go away to Galilee, and there they shall see me.'
Mar 16:14 Afterwards, as they are reclining (at meat), he was manifested to the eleven, and did reproach their unbelief and stiffness of heart, because they believed not those having seen him being raised;
Luk 24:31 AndG1161 theirG846 eyesG3788 were opened,G1272 andG2532 they knewG1921 him;G846 andG2532 heG846 vanishedG1096 G855 out of their sight.G575 G846
Joh 21:7 That disciple, therefore, whom Jesus was loving saith to Peter, `The Lord it is!' Simon Peter, therefore, having heard that it is the Lord, did gird on the outer coat, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea;
I would not call those scriptures a coming as such. For he was already here upon the earth, he died on the tree, then he went to the grave for 3 days, just as Jonas was in the belly of the whale for 3 days, then he got resurected, but did not yet ascend to the father "touch me not for I am not ascended to the father", so he went around and appeared to the disciples to confirm his resurection and then he ascends to heaven, where he sits on the right hand of the father "The son interceeds in heaven on our behalf, acts as our high priest", awaiting for the father to send instruction "no man knows the day or the hour only the father" to return for his bride and then to judge the wicked as spoken in jude when he returns with 10 thousands of his saints to exceute jugment upon the ungoldy.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 09, 2010, 04:47:03 AM
"Some believe Jesus will never again be present in His glorified body" Jabcat
Just what is "His glorified body?"
I Corinthians 15:35 But someone may ask, "How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?" 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn't grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be
raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
45 The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person."[h] But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like
the heavenly man.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[j] this Scripture will be fulfilled:
"Death is swallowed up in victory.[k]
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?[l]"
Quote54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[j] this Scripture will be fulfilled:
Amazing, isn't it? This is just a way station.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 09, 2010, 04:54:07 AM
What "comings were these?"
Mat 28:10 Then saith Jesus to them, `Fear ye not, go away, tell to my brethren that they may go away to Galilee, and there they shall see me.'
Mar 16:14 Afterwards, as they are reclining (at meat), he was manifested to the eleven, and did reproach their unbelief and stiffness of heart, because they believed not those having seen him being raised;
Luk 24:31 AndG1161 theirG846 eyesG3788 were opened,G1272 andG2532 they knewG1921 him;G846 andG2532 heG846 vanishedG1096 G855 out of their sight.G575 G846
Joh 21:7 That disciple, therefore, whom Jesus was loving saith to Peter, `The Lord it is!' Simon Peter, therefore, having heard that it is the Lord, did gird on the outer coat, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea;
Without doing the specific research, weren't all these prior to his ascension? Before He said "I go to prepare a place..the Comfortor will come"?
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2010, 05:21:52 AM
Quote54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[j] this Scripture will be fulfilled:
Amazing, isn't it? This is just a way station.
Yep. But for a season...on to bigger and better things. What's the scripture? We haven't even imagined the glory that's in store of us, that He is preparing?
I like this from 1way2God.net ;
These bodies will be imperishable,
glorified, powerful and spiritual (this "spiritual" means Spirit-led, not non-physical). Glorification then is simply a return to the way God had created us: perfect.The redemption that comes by Christ not only saves us, but redeems our bodies - our bodies are set free from the after-effects of the Fall. "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom. 8:30)
What will the Resurrection Bodies Be Like?
General attributes:
* Imperishable: "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable" (1 Cor. 15:42).
* Glorified: "...it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory" (1 Cor. 15:43a).
* Powerful: "...it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power" (1 Cor. 15:43b).
* Spiritual (meaning Spirit-led, not non-physical; see below): "...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Cor. 15:44)
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 09, 2010, 04:47:03 AM
"Some believe Jesus will never again be present in His glorified body" Jabcat
Just what is "His glorified body?"
WE ARE HIS GLORIFIED BODY !
GLORY! GLORY! GLORY :happy3:
THAT"S the Good News!
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2010, 05:22:09 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 09, 2010, 04:54:07 AM
What "comings were these?"
Mat 28:10 Then saith Jesus to them, `Fear ye not, go away, tell to my brethren that they may go away to Galilee, and there they shall see me.'
Mar 16:14 Afterwards, as they are reclining (at meat), he was manifested to the eleven, and did reproach their unbelief and stiffness of heart, because they believed not those having seen him being raised;
Luk 24:31 AndG1161 theirG846 eyesG3788 were opened,G1272 andG2532 they knewG1921 him;G846 andG2532 heG846 vanishedG1096 G855 out of their sight.G575 G846
Joh 21:7 That disciple, therefore, whom Jesus was loving saith to Peter, `The Lord it is!' Simon Peter, therefore, having heard that it is the Lord, did gird on the outer coat, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea;
Without doing the specific research, weren't all these prior to his ascension? Before He said "I go to prepare a place..the Comfortor will come"?
You are right, but it was all after the cross. This "second coming" is nothing more than
"church rapture" hype. IF the Comforter was not Jesus, and "another" comforter was not Him, then lets forget the whole thing. Jesus said he will send "another" comforter, He came and that right there is a second or another coming. Just forget all the other "stuff" where in the Bible does speak of a "second coming?" The witness of His coming again is in me and every saint and believer that has been filled and now led by the Holy Spirit. HE CAME, HE IS COMING, AND HE WILL COME. Selah.
If read carefully, one might see I've personally never used the term second coming to define how I see it. I've stated quite carefully my beliefs, and if anyone sees it some other way, well, we've all got our own level of understanding. I've stated I believe He does dwell among us, and that He comes/is present in various ways. Maybe there are other issues you're addressing Brother micah; don't know :bigGrin:.
Us being His glorified body? I agree in a sense, but I don't believe that's all it means, or that it's that completely narrowly defined. There are many facets within the details, multiple layers. OK, we're the body. Also though, when Jesus was walking amongst them, He didn't show them themselves - He showed them Himself. He didn't tell Thomas he needed to touch himself, his own side, his own nail-printed hands. Jesus was talking about Himself, and I believe I Corinthians 15 is talking about us once resurrected, and IMO, by extension, Jesus after His resurrection. :2c:
Yes, I agree, we're the body and that's good news. But I believe THE Good News is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Who loves the world, gave Himself for it, and rose again to redeem us.
But without love, I'm making noise.
So blessings and peace to you both. The glass will clear. :coolsmile:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 09, 2010, 06:03:09 AM
WE ARE HIS GLORIFIED BODY !
Excellent, Beloved of the Spirit.
"Childbearing is glorified; women die from it." peacemaker
Quote from: thinktank on September 09, 2010, 05:03:38 AMthen he got resurected, but did not yet ascend to the father "touch me not for I am not ascended to the father"
Quote, so he went around and appeared to the disciples to confirm his resurection
Thomas touched Him. Does that mean He already went and returned from heaven then? Or that only women where not allowed to touch His body?
Quoteand then he ascends to heaven, where he sits on the right hand of the father "The son interceeds in heaven on our behalf, acts as our high priest", awaiting for the father to send instruction "no man knows the day or the hour only the father"
Father does
not judge us. Son does.
(John 3:35) The Father, loveth the Son, and, all things, hath given into his hand.
(John 5:22) For neither doth, the Father, judge anyone,––but, all the judging, hath given unto the Son:
(John 5:27) And, authority, hath he given him, to be executing, judgment,––because, Son of Man, is he!
I humbly suggest (did I relly type that? :winkgrin:) you read this article (http://www.abideinchrist.info/judgment.html)
Quoteto return for his bride and then to judge the wicked as spoken in jude when he returns with 10 thousands of his saints to exceute jugment upon the ungoldy.
144.000 saints?
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2010, 06:34:06 AM
If read carefully, one might see I've personally never used the term second coming to define how I see it. I've stated quite carefully my beliefs, and if anyone sees it some other way, well, we've all got our own level of understanding. I've stated I believe He does dwell among us, and that He comes/is present in various ways. Maybe there are other issues you're addressing Brother micah; don't know :bigGrin:.
Us being His glorified body? I agree in a sense, but I don't believe that's all it means, or that it's that completely narrowly defined. There are many facets within the details, multiple layers. OK, we're the body. Also though, when Jesus was walking amongst them, He didn't show them themselves - He showed them Himself. He didn't tell Thomas he needed to touch himself, his own side, his own nail-printed hands. Jesus was talking about Himself, and I believe I Corinthians 15 is talking about us once resurrected, and IMO, by extension, Jesus after His resurrection. :2c:
Yes, I agree, we're the body and that's good news. But I believe THE Good News is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Who loves the world, gave Himself for it, and rose again to redeem us.
But without love, I'm making noise.
So blessings and peace to you both. The glass will clear. :coolsmile:
I dont know how how to break all this down into sections as some can, but I understand Jabcat what you are saying. I find what you say "He didn't show them
themselves - He showed them
Himself. He didn't tell Thomas he needed to touch himself, his own side, his own nail-printed hands. Jesus was talking about
Himself, fussy."
He was Jesus, He was not them. I understand "body" differently than you, i think. I do not except body as what we are now, but as the saved or made whole, servant/slave that we have yeilded to, as Jesus, the man did to the will of the Father. The coming of the Lord will be in that body of many members, yeilded to His Will. I know I am unclear, my mind sees, what my words cannot say.
Hi micah. Sometimes comments can either not be helpful to the direct discussion at hand, or can be taken the wrong way. Maybe I took the "body" comment the wrong way, maybe some of my comments were taken the wrong way. Still, my apologies for my part of it, I do attempt to not offend, while still trying to explain myself. Only the first part of my post was actually in response to your statement. For the rest, I was trying to make a distinction between us the body of believers, Jesus' body, and our immortal bodies at resurrection.
I probably can't be any more clear than I've already been, so I'll quit. Everyone can see things however they wish, I've just stated how I personally understand it - and I think it's important to be able to get another view out there.
God bless.
May God Bless.
Luk 24:39-43
(39) Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
(40) And saying this, He exhibits to them His hands and feet."
(41) Now, at their still disbelieving from joy, and marveling, He said to them, "Have you any food in this place?
(42) Now they hand Him part of a broiled fish,
(43) and, taking it, He ate before them."
That kind of body.
There are many verses about the appearing of Jesus-Christ.
Act 2:20 The sun shall be converted into darkness And the moon into blood Ere the coming of the day of the Lord, The great and advent day."
1Ti 6:14 that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus,
2Ti 1:10 yet now is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who, indeed, abolishes death, yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel"
Tit 2:13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
Yet, this is still confusing.
I'll have to study it more.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 09, 2010, 07:45:32 AM
Quote from: thinktank on September 09, 2010, 05:03:38 AMthen he got resurected, but did not yet ascend to the father "touch me not for I am not ascended to the father"
Quote, so he went around and appeared to the disciples to confirm his resurection
Thomas touched Him. Does that mean He already went and returned from heaven then? Or that only women where not allowed to touch His body?
Quoteand then he ascends to heaven, where he sits on the right hand of the father "The son interceeds in heaven on our behalf, acts as our high priest", awaiting for the father to send instruction "no man knows the day or the hour only the father"
Father does not judge us. Son does.
(John 3:35) The Father, loveth the Son, and, all things, hath given into his hand.
(John 5:22) For neither doth, the Father, judge anyone,––but, all the judging, hath given unto the Son:
(John 5:27) And, authority, hath he given him, to be executing, judgment,––because, Son of Man, is he!
I humbly suggest (did I relly type that? :winkgrin:) you read this article (http://www.abideinchrist.info/judgment.html)
Quoteto return for his bride and then to judge the wicked as spoken in jude when he returns with 10 thousands of his saints to exceute jugment upon the ungoldy.
144.000 saints?
That makes sense, that'd mean that 1 John has been mistranslated when the word parakletos is used as advocate...how can Jesus be the judge AND the advocate, that makes no sense in a court?
:mshock: