The second coming of Christ

[WhiteWings]

I assume because the verse states 'today' you assume there is also a 'tomorrow' in death?
First of all Scripture uses natural means to explain things. For example God isn't eternal because that means without a beginning and without an end. Beginning and end are time references. But if there is no time such references are impossible.
So even if Jesus attached a time reference to death it's from the earthly perspective. Jesus was dead for 3 days and nights. That's several tomorrows. Jesus resurrects a certain group of the death after the 1000 year reign. That's a lot of tomorrows. So the time references are according to our calendar.

That said, it's even easier.

Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I understand the above verse as:
I'm assuring you right here and now: you will be with me in paradise starting at an undefined moment in the future.

[WhiteWings]

I think I should clarify my "God is not eternal" remark before people start making a big problem out of it.
God is eternal from our time related view. We simply can't truly grasp a timeless reality.
Plus I must say I'm not sure we are informed "heaven has no time"


http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/are-we-really-going-to-live-forever/msg127080/#msg127080

[JulieTang84]

I assume because the verse states 'today' you assume there is also a 'tomorrow' in death?
First of all Scripture uses natural means to explain things. For example God isn't eternal because that means without a beginning and without an end. Beginning and end are time references. But if there is no time such references are impossible.
So even if Jesus attached a time reference to death it's from the earthly perspective. Jesus was dead for 3 days and nights. That's several tomorrows. Jesus resurrects a certain group of the death after the 1000 year reign. That's a lot of tomorrows. So the time references are according to our calendar.

That said, it's even easier.

Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I understand the above verse as:
I'm assuring you right here and now: you will be with me in paradise starting at an undefined moment in the future.

Which could have been said: "You will be with me in Paradise."

There was no apparent reason for Jesus to even mention the word "Today" as the premise that Jesus was speaking "Today" was implied.

If he had told the prisoner in the past, he likely would have said: As I have told you in the past, you will be with me in paradise.

Or as you said regarding the future: I tell you you will be with me in paradise in the future.

The simple truth is that we do not know what the original Aramic would have implied. Well I will correct that, at least I don't.   :HeartThrob:

Please note, I am not speaking of the body but the "higher self."

Love Julie  :girlheart:

[jbertonbounds]

Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I understand the above verse as:
I'm assuring you right here and now: you will be with me in paradise starting at an undefined moment in the future.

:thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

God is eternal from our time related view. We simply can't truly grasp a timeless reality.
Plus I must say I'm not sure we are informed "heaven has no time"

True.  As far as I know, we are not told in the scriptures that there is no time in heaven/the afterlife.  The fact that the scripture says the with God a day is as a thousand years merely suggests that the dimension of time is not a reality in heaven/afterlife.

[WhiteWings]

Hard to say jb.

Ps 90:4 For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
---> 3 hours (watch) = 1000 years.
---> 24 hours (yesterday) = 1000 years.

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

---> 24 hours = 1000 years.
---> 1000 years = 24 hours.

Time is mentioned but it doesn't make any sense mathematically.
So if the time reference really point to time it isn't linear time as we know it.

Angels sing and play music. Sound require time.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
---> That's only possible if there is time.

For me there are 2 possible conclusions
a] Time exist we will experience it vastly different.
b] Time doesn't exist and all time references are merely to get a message across.

Time can only exist if there is mass. But that's based on the physics of this universe and doesn't mean it can't be different.

So  :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Matt 27:50-54 (AKJV)
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

That was a resurrection before His 2nd coming. They died again?

[JulieTang84]

It is my understanding that there is no before Father or after Father.

Below is the exact phrase.[/t] Ecc 1:9That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which will be done: and there is nothing newunder the sun.[/t] So no  matter how we measure time, seasons or events, they mean nothing to Father. He is pure actuality and Thomas Aquinas speaks of this below. Father has no Before or After With Much Love, Julie  :HeartThrob: Thomas Aquinas on  Eternity (Nontemporality). God is not temporal (Summa Theologica, 1a. 10, 1). He is beyond time. Aquinas offers several arguments in support of this conclusion. The first argument goes:<blockquote>1. Whatever exists in time can be computed according to its befores and afters. 2. Changeless being, as God is, has no befores or afters; it is always the same. 3. Consequently, God must be timeless.</blockquote>Time is duration characterized by substantial and accidental changes. A substantial change is a change in what something is. An accidental change is a change in what something has. Growing knowledge is an accidental change in a being. Aquinas sees three levels of being in relation to time and eternity: 1. God is eternity is Pure Actuality, without essential or accidental change. 2. Angels and saints who dwell in the spiritual world of heaven live in aeviternity (or aevum). 3. Human beings, comprising soul and body, form and matter, live in time.Eternity (God) endures without any potency. Aeviternity (angels) endure with completely actualized potency. Their changes are not essential but accidental. Spiritual beings in aviternity do not change in their essence, though they do undergo accidental changes. Angels increase in knowledge by divine infusion, and they have changableness with regard to choice, intelligence, affections and places (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.6). But with no substantial changes in aeviterny, angels are immutable in their level of grace and charity. What is true of the angels is also true of the elect in heaven. Time (humanity) endures with progressive actualized potency. The second argument for God's eternity similarly follows from immutability. It begins with the premise that whatever is immutable does not change in the state of its being. Whatever is in time goes through succession of states. So whatever is immutable is not temporable. This argument stresses another aspect of time; whatever is temporal has successive states, one after the other. God does not, so He is not temporal. Total immutability necessarily implies eternity (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.2). For whatever changes substantially is in time and can be computed according to before and after. Whatever does not change cannot be in time, since it has no different states by which before and after can be computed. It never changes. Whatever does not change is not temporal. Not only is God eternal, but He alone is eternal (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.3), for He alone is essentially immutable. Aquinas distinguishes eternity from endless time (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.4). First, whatever is essentially whole (eternity) is essentially different from what has parts (time). Eternity is now forever; time includes past, present, and future, now and then. The implication of this is that God's eternity is not divided; it is all present to Him in His eternal now. So it must be essentially different from time in successive moments. Second, endless time is just more an elongation of time. But eternity differs qualitatively. It differs essentially, not merely accidentally. Eternity is an essential, changeless state of being that transcends moment-by-successive-moment reality. Time measures that reality, or rather the stage on which reality plays out. Third, an eternal being cannot change, whereas time involves change. By change can measurements of before and after be made. Whatever can be computed according to before and after is not eternal. Endless time can be computed according to before and after. Hence, endless time is not the same as eternity. The eternal is changeless, but what can be computed by its before and after has changed. It follows, then, that the eternal now cannot live in relation to endless befores and afters. Obviously, Aquinas saw a critical difference between the "now" of time, and the "now" of eternity. The now of time is moveable. The now of eternity is not moveable in any way. The eternal now is unchanging, but the now of time is ever changing. There is only an analogy between time and eternity; they cannot be the same. God's now has no past or future; time's now does. Some has mistakenly concluded that Aquinas did not believe in God's duration for eternity, because he rejected temporality in God. Aquinas argued that duration occurs as long as actuality exists. But eternity, aeviternity, and time endure in different ways. It follows, therefore that the essential difference in the quality of the duration in time, aeviternity, and eternity comes from the condition of the actuality. God is Pure Actuality. Angels have received total actuality from God in their created spiritual forms. Human beings progressively receive actuality in both spiritual form and material body. Since God endures without potentiality, He cannot endure progressively. He endures in a much higher way -as Pure Actuality.

[WhiteWings]

Julie,

What I'm missing is that article are verses.....

[JulieTang84]

Julie,

What I'm missing is that article are verses.....

WW verses regarding?........


Father is before everything, time is just a physical constraint and is in a constant state of change. Something, thankfully Father is not. We must drop this notion that what Father has planned for us is going to happen in SOME future event. It cannot, because Father is EVERYTHING and everything that will occur on our plane, has already been accomplished in His. Can you even imagine how we can be living in duality. Our few years on this earth is just an instant while with Father.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Scripture is concerned with the eons which have a beginning and an end. It is only through the inaccurate translation of common bibles that we read about eternity. The Hebrew "olam" and the Greek "aion" both refer to a period of time, and their adjectives must refer to a period of time not eternity. Time seems to be finite to us. So it is hard to comprehend infinite time, but I try not to get too crazy trying to do so even though I believe the living God always was and always will be. I think it's sufficient to know all mankind will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons. We in the body of Christ will probably have a different concept of time and space while we are immortalized in spiritual bodies for the last two eons, but who knows what happens after the consummation of the eons? John 4:24 says God is spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:28 says God will be all in all. Romans 11:36 says all is out of, through, and into God. Maybe that's the answer.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html


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[bj127]

Tom....I also wonder what "all in all" means.  Why I'm jumping to that questions when I still have so many other questions regarding the eons is ridiculous; however, I always like to jump ahead.  Am certain "all in all" is something my simple little brain cannot imagine.  It will be good though...of that I'm certain.

[Tom]

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

[bj127]

28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

Now I'm really confused.  If God is ALL in Christ now, how will Christ and his body be given unto God to become "all in all" at the reconciliation.  That really jumbles my mind.   :eek:

[bj127]

Please excuse the word "reconciliation".  What I meant was the "consummation" (end of the eons).

[WhiteWings]

Julie,

What I'm missing is that article are verses.....

WW verses regarding?........

Verses that prove there is or is not time in heaven

The author make claims like
- Whatever exists in time can be computed according to its befores and afters
--> Not necessarily. That's only so if we use 4 dimensions.

But that's theory. Where are the verses....?

[WhiteWings]

Our few years on this earth is just an instant while with Father.

There are no instants in timelesness.

All our reasoning somehow refers to our own perception of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
Watch 1:10 - 1:25

It's about how people in a 2D world experience a 3D object.
2D people have the same problem grasping 3D as we have problems understanding extra dimensions.
But.... this isn't science class. That's why I asked verses.

[JulieTang84]

Our few years on this earth is just an instant while with Father.

There are no instants in timelesness.

All our reasoning somehow refers to our own perception of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
Watch 1:10 - 1:25

It's about how people in a 2D world experience a 3D object.
2D people have the same problem grasping 3D as we have problems understanding extra dimensions.
But.... this isn't science class. That's why I asked verses.

WhiteWings  :HeartThrob:


This is where one has to take what has been given to make something in much of the same way as the parable of the talents of silver. It was not enough to just hold onto it.


First off. Time consists of three phases:
    * Past
    * Present
    * Future

Age is a measurement of time since to given points. Is Father older today than yesterday? By our understanding, of course. As we, as is He. Right?  :HeartThrob: Fortunately, no. Because we cannot and must not measure Father by our ways as his ways are ever so much higher.

Isa 55:9   "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Father cannot change, for he is pure ACUTALITY.
(Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Psalm 102:26-27; Malachi 3:6; Romans 11:29; Hebrews 6:17-18; James 1:17)

Father cannot grow old, neither can he grow in wisdom. He is UTTER completness, their is nothing that He is without. Father NEEDS nothing, He lacks nothing. He is not dependant on anyone, or anything.

Time exists because of Father, not Father because of time. There is no "effect" in Father because He is the "Cause" of everything.

Without Father, there woould not even be NOTHING as nothing denotes a lack of something. Everything would be NULL

Dear WW, Father simply IS and WE ARE. That is enough for me.

Pure Actuallity, what a concept! Father IS.   :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie  :girlheart:

[Tom]

28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

Now I'm really confused.  If God is ALL in Christ now, how will Christ and his body be given unto God to become "all in all" at the reconciliation.  That really jumbles my mind.   :eek:

My perspective is that the saints, the body of Christ, will be immortalized long before those who died as unbelievers who will be immortalized at the consummation. It is then that God will be "all in all" or everything to everybody. God's will will be everybody's will. Everybody will be filled with God's love to the max! Don't let the word "all" mess with your mind. It's hard to conceive that all on earth and in heaven will be reconciled because that is not what we were taught by the church, but even the corrupt translations used by the church say that all are reconciled. It is my belief that "all" means "all."

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/TheGrandestTruth.html

[WhiteWings]

28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

Now I'm really confused.  If God is ALL in Christ now, how will Christ and his body be given unto God to become "all in all" at the reconciliation.  That really jumbles my mind.   :eek:

Good question!
What does "all in" mean?

a] The complete being/person of Father is inside Jesus.
b] The full personality/love/etc is in Jesus.

I think the answer is B.