Hi guys ,
Does anyone have some clear thoughts concerning the second coming of Christ
I was wondering because alot of scriptures speaks of the first coming of Christ was in the flesh His body prepared to be sent in the fulness of time
and the second coming is in our flesh ?
some scriptures speaks of Him coming like a thief in the night and behold I come quickly
and a place where Jesus speaks of Israel they did not know the time of their visitation
any and all imput is appreciated
Asking for and needing more clear answers ,
I could never be clear enough for some reason ?? :sigh:
As time goes on, it becomes more and more clear that mankind is on a path to inevitable self-extinction - the world is going to "hell" on a rocket sled, not on a hand cart. God knows that, and made provision, so that these days would be cut short, before that extinction. God holds back in order to save as many as possible, while births still occur. At just the right time, Jesus the Christ will appear to all, with shouts, trumpets, and the very sky being rolled aside. No secret rapture will be possible. The saints, dead and living, will be taken out and will be with the Lord forever - no worries!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 17, 2013, 05:20:59 PM
As time goes on, it becomes more and more clear that mankind is on a path to inevitable self-extinction - the world is going to "hell" on a rocket sled, not on a hand cart. God knows that, and made provision, so that these days would be cut short, before that extinction. God holds back in order to save as many as possible, while births still occur. At just the right time, Jesus the Christ will appear to all, with shouts, trumpets, and the very sky being rolled aside. No secret rapture will be possible. The saints, dead and living, will be taken out and will be with the Lord forever - no worries!
Thanks Laz !! :friendstu:
The birthing of the Sons of God are going on right now in the spiritual realm
just as the natural realm are birthing as they also marry and promise marriage
and some just making littleones out of wedlock , so is it in the spiritual realm
The second coming of Christ , in the night is also like being'' unaware' He is come to them , correct ? If you keep Jesus sayings , you will never taste death right ?
Jesus pointed out to those religious leaders that they would not taste death , TILL they seen the kingdom of God
Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest,
If a man keep my saying,
he shall never taste of death. Both are true , as both happen as life to some and death to others , to both types , so the rapture theory is a bust for the most part
its a judgment of God it seems to me
Quote from: rosered on May 17, 2013, 05:52:40 PM
Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
I expect that, as Jesus said those words, Stephen was nearby. Stephen saw the kingdom of God before he tasted death. Jesus may have even looked right at Stephen as He said it.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 17, 2013, 06:05:10 PM
Quote from: rosered on May 17, 2013, 05:52:40 PM
Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
I expect that, as Jesus said those words, Stephen was nearby. Stephen saw the kingdom of God before he tasted death. Jesus may have even looked right at Stephen as He said it.
:ty:
wow , yes I can see that now ! ''Heaven opened '' to recive a son / Stephen
an angel of God messenger
gives new meaning to this verse for me
How they go up and some down ?
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see
the heavens opened, and
the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Jhn 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon
the Son of man.
:gimmefive:
Quote from: rosered on May 17, 2013, 05:10:29 PM
Hi guys ,
Does anyone have some clear thoughts concerning the second coming of Christ
I was wondering because alot of scriptures speaks of the first coming of Christ was in the flesh His body prepared to be sent in the fulness of time
and the second coming is in our flesh ?
some scriptures speaks of Him coming like a thief in the night and behold I come quickly
and a place where Jesus speaks of Israel they did not know the time of their visitation
any and all imput is appreciated
Asking for and needing more clear answers ,
I could never be clear enough for some reason ?? :sigh:
It means the coming of Jesus will be VERY loud and noisy. It means at or 10 days after new year. Yeah, I even think at daybreak on atonement day.
I also think Jesus comes several times or perhaps better wording would be "is revealed to a greater audience". He comes for His bride (some call that rapture). Later He comes on His white horse to crush satan at the battle of Armagedon.
That's my interpretation.
Hi RoseRed,
I found this on a forum just a little while ago. The brutal honesty of it really caught my attention and I place it here for the truth it contains.
I am really unsure what to make of this.......
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Here's proof..........
Jesus was born and walked on earth < first time.He died, arose 3 DAYS LATER AND RETURNED TO THE LIVING A -SECOND TIME-
a second time,a second time. Why do you believe the traditions taught by men and not the word?
Remember the other thief on the cross? Luke 23:43 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/x-apple-data-detectors://0) And Jesus said" I ASSURE YOU,-TODAY- you will be with me in Paradise".Jesus said -TODAY- not in some "second" rapture.
JESUS AND THE OTHER THIEF ASCENDED THAT DAY along with the PEOPLE from the graves busting open as stated by Matthew the moment JesUS died.
If your waiting for jesus to come back, you are waiting on A 3rd coming.
CAN YOU NOT READ AND COUNT TO 3?
The other thief did not have to wait on a -SECOND- rapture.
THEY WERE ALL CHANGED IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE. OH AND WE NEVER LEFT, we are the ones that not all sleep. It only takes a twinkling of an eye to go to the thrown room and back with our god-given authority.
Have you died and been resuscitated? Congratulations,you have been to the thrown room too.
Sometimes it makes a big difference where you put a little comma. See the attachment.
Christ alone has immortality, but we're next when the time comes.
...unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus,
15 which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving (1 Timothy 6:14-16)
20 Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation (1 Corinthians 15:20-24)
14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him.
15 For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,
16 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first.
17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.
18 So that, console one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18)
[attachment deleted by admin]
There are two problems with greek and hebrew writings. No caps (or all caps in the greek) and no punctuation.
For example, "I tell you, Today you will be with me in paradise."
or "I tell you today. You will be with me in Paradise."
The words are exact but the punctuation which wasn't there at all in the original, changes the meaning.
Oh goshTom you beat me to it. I ccame back to delete my post.
Thanks for yours :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 22, 2013, 08:08:45 PM
There are two problems with greek and hebrew writings. No caps (or all caps in the greek) and no punctuation.
For example, "I tell you, Today you will be with me in paradise."
or "I tell you today. You will be with me in Paradise."
The words are exact but the punctuation which wasn't there at all in the original, changes the meaning.
Is Greek a language whose meaning is derived by how it is spoken ie emphsiss, and not how it is written?
Punctuation can make a huge difference. IMO the Rotherham Emphasized Bible does a good job with the punctuation. In addition, they developed a whole set of new punctuation just for that version of the bible. Love my Rotherham Emphasized!
Sometimes it's like the difference between "Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!"
:laugh: :laughing7: :laugh: :laugh: :LH: :laughing7:
:rolllol: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laugh: :LH: :LH:
:mock: :rolllol: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laugh: :laugh:
The theif did not ascend with Christ. Christ did not ascend till the third day and no mention is made of the theif.
Paul, wrote in Galatians (about 20 years after the ascension of Jesus that, "No one has ascended to the Father except he who descended from the Father" :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 22, 2013, 08:14:31 PM
The theif did not ascend with Christ. Christ did not ascend till the third day and no mention is made of the theif.
Paul, wrote in Galatians (about 20 years after the ascension of Jesus that, "No one has ascended to the Father except he who descended from the Father" :Peace2:
A good example of scripture interpreting scripture. :thumbsup:
Amen to that
:HeartThrob:
[/b whoo descended? I see a whole city descending out of heaven prepared as a Bride.............
if He be lifted up..and draw all men unto Him..surely they ascend also.
I saaw a sheet coming down out of heaven...with all kinds of animals,both clean and unclean...and rise back up to heaven
3times! Rise,Peter..kill and eat.........=ministry of recnciliation........carnal understanding killed[wisdom hath slain her beaasts]
mind of Christ given.[both clean and unclean beasts]
exercize in good and evil for those born again from above
"No one has ascended to the Father except he who descended from the Father"
He who descended from the father is Christ, then born of the virgin Mary, then 3 days after his death ascended to heaven - the only human to do so.
animals in visions don't count
We will surely ascend eventually. 20 years after Christ had ascended, no other human had done so.
9 Now the 'He ascended,' what is it except that He first descended also into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He Who descends is the Same Who ascends also, up over all who are of the heavens, that He should be completing all. (Ephesians 4:9,10)
I was thinking about when I saw somebody on the forum discussing the meaning of descending to the lower parts of the earth that the Dead Sea is said to be the lowest elevation on earth, and Jerusalem and all the other places Christ is said to have walked aren't far from there.
I (rightly or wrongly) assumed it was his burial (symbolic of under like underwater in Baptism) :Peace2:
me too
Jesus' Promise Of Paradise To The Thief On The Cross
"And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.'" Luke 23:43
This verse is often quoted in support of the belief that souls go to their reward immediately after death. Upon closer examination, this verse can be brought into harmony with the scores of Bible texts that teach otherwise.
1) Paradise Synonymous With Heaven
The word "paradise," translated from the Greek "paradeisos," means an "enclosure," "park," or "preserve" containing trees, in which animals were often kept for the hunt. It was enclosed by walls and sometimes furnished with towers for the hunters. Translated from the Hebrew "pardes" it means "forest," or "orchard" (see on Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5). In the LXX the "garden" of Eden is spoken of as the "paradise" of Eden (see on Genesis 2:8). In fact, "paradeisos" is common in the LXX where the word "garden" (Hebrew "gan") appears in the English translation (see Genesis 3:1; Isaiah 51:3; Joel 2:3; etc.).
In the New Testament "paradeisos" occurs only in Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7. In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the fact that Paul refers to no earthly "paradise" is doubly clear from the fact that he equates being "caught up" to "heaven" with being "caught up" to "paradise." According to Revelation 2:7 the "tree of life" is said to be "in the midst of the paradise of God," whereas in Revelation 21:1-3, 10; 22:1-5 the tree of life is associated with the new earth, the New Jerusalem, the river of life, and the throne of God. There can be no doubt that New Testament usage of "paradeisos" consistently makes it synonymous with "heaven."
2) "Be With Me in Paradise."
On the eve of the betrayal-less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief-Jesus had told the Twelve Disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions....I go to prepare a place for you....I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (see on John 14:1-3). Yet, three days later Jesus informed Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17). Obviously, therefore, Jesus did not go to paradise ("heaven," see above), and was not in paradise, on the day of His crucifixion. Accordingly, the thief could not have been with Jesus in paradise.
Therefore, when Jesus assured the thief of a place with Him in "paradise," He referred to the "many mansions" of His "Father's house" and to the time when He would "receive" unto Himself His own (see on John 14:1-3). Throughout His ministry Jesus had specifically stated that He would "reward every man according to his works" when He returned in triumph "in the glory of his Father with his angels" (see on Matthew 16:27). Not until that time will he invite the saved of earth to "inherit the kingdom prepared for" them "from the foundation of the world" (see on Matthew 25:31,34; cf. Revelation 22:12). Paul taught that those who fall asleep in Jesus will come forth from their graves at Christ's second coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-23) to receive immortality (vs. 51-55). The resurrected righteous and the righteous living will "be caught up together...to meet the Lord in the air," and thus "ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). The thief will, accordingly, be "with" Jesus in "paradise" following the resurrection of the just, at His second coming.
3) Misplaced Punctuation Inserted During Translation
The comma between the words "thee" and "to day" was inserted by the translators. The original Greek text, which had neither punctuation nor word division reads: "amen soi lego semeron met emou ese en to paradeiso," literally, "truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise." The adverb "semeron," "today," stands between the two verbs "lego," "I-say," and "ese," "you-will-be," and might properly apply to either. Its position immediately following the verb "lego," "I-say," may imply a closer grammatical relationship to it than to the verb "ese," "you will be."
Obviously, in placing the comma before the word "to day," the translators were guided by the unscriptural concept that the dead enter into their rewards at death. But, as set forth above, it is manifest that neither Jesus nor the writers of the New Testament believed or taught such a doctrine. To place the comma before the word "today" thus makes Christ contradict what He and the various New Testament writers have plainly stated elsewhere. Accordingly, the Scriptures themselves require that the comma be placed after the word "to day," not before it.
Joseph B. Rotherham in the emphasized New Testament, renders this passage in these words: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With Me shalt thou be in Paradise." Luke 23:43. And George M. Lamsa, in his translation of the New Testament from Aramaic sources, renders it as follows: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise."
Thus, when Christ said to the thief on the cross: "Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise," He was answering the great question the thief was pondering at the moment: not when he would reach paradise, but whether he would get there at all. Jesus' simple statement assures him that, however undeserving he may be, and however impossible it may appear for Jesus to make good such a promise while dying the death of a condemned criminal Himself, the thief will most assuredly be there. In fact, it was Jesus' presence on the cross that made such a hope possible.
On the eve of the betrayal-less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief-Jesus had told the Twelve Disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions....I go to prepare a place for you....I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (see on John 14:1-3). Yet, three days later Jesus informed Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17). Obviously, therefore, Jesus did not go to paradise ("heaven," see above), and was not in paradise, on the day of His crucifixion. Accordingly, the thief could not have been with Jesus in paradise.
This is based on the assumption that after death.
An hour has 60 minutes and a minute has 60 seconds as recorded on Mans Atomic Clock.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2013, 09:45:21 AM
Jesus' Promise Of Paradise To The Thief On The Cross
"And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.'" Luke 23:43
This verse is often quoted in support of the belief that souls go to their reward immediately after death. Upon closer examination, this verse can be brought into harmony with the scores of Bible texts that teach otherwise.
1) Paradise Synonymous With Heaven
The word "paradise," translated from the Greek "paradeisos," means an "enclosure," "park," or "preserve" containing trees, in which animals were often kept for the hunt. It was enclosed by walls and sometimes furnished with towers for the hunters. Translated from the Hebrew "pardes" it means "forest," or "orchard" (see on Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5). In the LXX the "garden" of Eden is spoken of as the "paradise" of Eden (see on Genesis 2:8). In fact, "paradeisos" is common in the LXX where the word "garden" (Hebrew "gan") appears in the English translation (see Genesis 3:1; Isaiah 51:3; Joel 2:3; etc.).
In the New Testament "paradeisos" occurs only in Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7. In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the fact that Paul refers to no earthly "paradise" is doubly clear from the fact that he equates being "caught up" to "heaven" with being "caught up" to "paradise." According to Revelation 2:7 the "tree of life" is said to be "in the midst of the paradise of God," whereas in Revelation 21:1-3, 10; 22:1-5 the tree of life is associated with the new earth, the New Jerusalem, the river of life, and the throne of God. There can be no doubt that New Testament usage of "paradeisos" consistently makes it synonymous with "heaven."
2) "Be With Me in Paradise."
On the eve of the betrayal-less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief-Jesus had told the Twelve Disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions....I go to prepare a place for you....I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (see on John 14:1-3). Yet, three days later Jesus informed Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17). Obviously, therefore, Jesus did not go to paradise ("heaven," see above), and was not in paradise, on the day of His crucifixion. Accordingly, the thief could not have been with Jesus in paradise.
Therefore, when Jesus assured the thief of a place with Him in "paradise," He referred to the "many mansions" of His "Father's house" and to the time when He would "receive" unto Himself His own (see on John 14:1-3). Throughout His ministry Jesus had specifically stated that He would "reward every man according to his works" when He returned in triumph "in the glory of his Father with his angels" (see on Matthew 16:27). Not until that time will he invite the saved of earth to "inherit the kingdom prepared for" them "from the foundation of the world" (see on Matthew 25:31,34; cf. Revelation 22:12). Paul taught that those who fall asleep in Jesus will come forth from their graves at Christ's second coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-23) to receive immortality (vs. 51-55). The resurrected righteous and the righteous living will "be caught up together...to meet the Lord in the air," and thus "ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). The thief will, accordingly, be "with" Jesus in "paradise" following the resurrection of the just, at His second coming.
3) Misplaced Punctuation Inserted During Translation
The comma between the words "thee" and "to day" was inserted by the translators. The original Greek text, which had neither punctuation nor word division reads: "amen soi lego semeron met emou ese en to paradeiso," literally, "truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise." The adverb "semeron," "today," stands between the two verbs "lego," "I-say," and "ese," "you-will-be," and might properly apply to either. Its position immediately following the verb "lego," "I-say," may imply a closer grammatical relationship to it than to the verb "ese," "you will be."
Obviously, in placing the comma before the word "to day," the translators were guided by the unscriptural concept that the dead enter into their rewards at death. But, as set forth above, it is manifest that neither Jesus nor the writers of the New Testament believed or taught such a doctrine. To place the comma before the word "today" thus makes Christ contradict what He and the various New Testament writers have plainly stated elsewhere. Accordingly, the Scriptures themselves require that the comma be placed after the word "to day," not before it.
Joseph B. Rotherham in the emphasized New Testament, renders this passage in these words: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With Me shalt thou be in Paradise." Luke 23:43. And George M. Lamsa, in his translation of the New Testament from Aramaic sources, renders it as follows: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise."
Thus, when Christ said to the thief on the cross: "Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise," He was answering the great question the thief was pondering at the moment: not when he would reach paradise, but whether he would get there at all. Jesus' simple statement assures him that, however undeserving he may be, and however impossible it may appear for Jesus to make good such a promise while dying the death of a condemned criminal Himself, the thief will most assuredly be there. In fact, it was Jesus' presence on the cross that made such a hope possible.
This is good stuff. :thumbsup: Thanks WW!
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2013, 09:45:21 AM
Jesus' Promise Of Paradise To The Thief On The Cross
"And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.'" Luke 23:43
This verse is often quoted in support of the belief that souls go to their reward immediately after death. Upon closer examination, this verse can be brought into harmony with the scores of Bible texts that teach otherwise.
1) Paradise Synonymous With Heaven
The word "paradise," translated from the Greek "paradeisos," means an "enclosure," "park," or "preserve" containing trees, in which animals were often kept for the hunt. It was enclosed by walls and sometimes furnished with towers for the hunters. Translated from the Hebrew "pardes" it means "forest," or "orchard" (see on Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5). In the LXX the "garden" of Eden is spoken of as the "paradise" of Eden (see on Genesis 2:8). In fact, "paradeisos" is common in the LXX where the word "garden" (Hebrew "gan") appears in the English translation (see Genesis 3:1; Isaiah 51:3; Joel 2:3; etc.).
In the New Testament "paradeisos" occurs only in Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7. In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the fact that Paul refers to no earthly "paradise" is doubly clear from the fact that he equates being "caught up" to "heaven" with being "caught up" to "paradise." According to Revelation 2:7 the "tree of life" is said to be "in the midst of the paradise of God," whereas in Revelation 21:1-3, 10; 22:1-5 the tree of life is associated with the new earth, the New Jerusalem, the river of life, and the throne of God. There can be no doubt that New Testament usage of "paradeisos" consistently makes it synonymous with "heaven."
2) "Be With Me in Paradise."
On the eve of the betrayal-less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief-Jesus had told the Twelve Disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions....I go to prepare a place for you....I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (see on John 14:1-3). Yet, three days later Jesus informed Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17). Obviously, therefore, Jesus did not go to paradise ("heaven," see above), and was not in paradise, on the day of His crucifixion. Accordingly, the thief could not have been with Jesus in paradise.
Therefore, when Jesus assured the thief of a place with Him in "paradise," He referred to the "many mansions" of His "Father's house" and to the time when He would "receive" unto Himself His own (see on John 14:1-3). Throughout His ministry Jesus had specifically stated that He would "reward every man according to his works" when He returned in triumph "in the glory of his Father with his angels" (see on Matthew 16:27). Not until that time will he invite the saved of earth to "inherit the kingdom prepared for" them "from the foundation of the world" (see on Matthew 25:31,34; cf. Revelation 22:12). Paul taught that those who fall asleep in Jesus will come forth from their graves at Christ's second coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-23) to receive immortality (vs. 51-55). The resurrected righteous and the righteous living will "be caught up together...to meet the Lord in the air," and thus "ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). The thief will, accordingly, be "with" Jesus in "paradise" following the resurrection of the just, at His second coming.
3) Misplaced Punctuation Inserted During Translation
The comma between the words "thee" and "to day" was inserted by the translators. The origina l Greek text, which had neither punctuation nor word division reads: "amen soi lego semeron met emou ese en to paradeiso," literally, "truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise." The adverb "semeron," "today," stands between the two verbs "lego," "I-say," and "ese," "you-will-be," and might properly apply to either. Its position immediately following the verb "lego," "I-say," may imply a closer grammatical relationship to it than to the verb "ese," "you will be."
Obviously, in placing the comma before the word "to day," the translators were guided by the unscriptural concept that the dead enter into their rewards at death. But, as set forth above, it is manifest that neither Jesus nor the writers of the New Testament believed or taught such a doctrine. To place the comma before the word "today" thus makes Christ contradict what He and the various New Testament writers have plainly stated elsewhere. Accordingly, the Scriptures themselves require that the comma be placed after the word "to day," not before it.
Joseph B. Rotherham in the emphasized New Testament, renders this passage in these words: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With Me shalt thou be in Paradise." Luke 23:43. And George M. Lamsa, in his translation of the New Testament from Aramaic sources, renders it as follows: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise."
Thus, when Christ said to the thief on the cross: "Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise," He was answering the great question the thief was pondering at the moment: not when he would reach paradise, but whether he would get there at all. Jesus' simple statement assures him that, however undeserving he may be, and however impossible it may appear for Jesus to make good such a promise while dying the death of a condemned criminal Himself, the thief will most assuredly be there. In fact, it was Jesus' presence on the cross that made such a hope possible.
Forgive me WW. :HeartThrob:
But for your reasoning to be correct, there must be a "tomorrow" in death. Clearly the Sriptures speak of there being no time in death. To this point, there is no time in Father either. He is the End as well as the beginning. We must not assume that Jesus meant something other than he said in order to satisfy our understanding.
Please accept this with the love on which it was written.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I assume because the verse states 'today' you assume there is also a 'tomorrow' in death?
First of all Scripture uses natural means to explain things. For example God isn't eternal because that means without a beginning and without an end. Beginning and end are time references. But if there is no time such references are impossible.
So even if Jesus attached a time reference to death it's from the earthly perspective. Jesus was dead for 3 days and nights. That's several tomorrows. Jesus resurrects a certain group of the death after the 1000 year reign. That's a lot of tomorrows. So the time references are according to our calendar.
That said, it's even easier.
Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I understand the above verse as:
I'm assuring you right here and now: you will be with me in paradise starting at an undefined moment in the future.
I think I should clarify my "God is not eternal" remark before people start making a big problem out of it.
God is eternal from our time related view. We simply can't truly grasp a timeless reality.
Plus I must say I'm not sure we are informed "heaven has no time"
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/are-we-really-going-to-live-forever/msg127080/#msg127080
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2013, 08:26:32 AM
I assume because the verse states 'today' you assume there is also a 'tomorrow' in death?
First of all Scripture uses natural means to explain things. For example God isn't eternal because that means without a beginning and without an end. Beginning and end are time references. But if there is no time such references are impossible.
So even if Jesus attached a time reference to death it's from the earthly perspective. Jesus was dead for 3 days and nights. That's several tomorrows. Jesus resurrects a certain group of the death after the 1000 year reign. That's a lot of tomorrows. So the time references are according to our calendar.
That said, it's even easier.
Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I understand the above verse as:
I'm assuring you right here and now: you will be with me in paradise starting at an undefined moment in the future.
Which could have been said: "You will be with me in Paradise."
There was no apparent reason for Jesus to even mention the word "Today" as the premise that Jesus was speaking "Today" was implied.
If he had told the prisoner in the past, he likely would have said: As I have told you in the past, you will be with me in paradise.
Or as you said regarding the future: I tell you you will be with me in paradise in the future.
The simple truth is that we do not know what the original Aramic would have implied. Well I will correct that, at least I don't. :HeartThrob:
Please note, I am not speaking of the body but the "higher self."
Love Julie :girlheart:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2013, 08:26:32 AM
Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I understand the above verse as:
I'm assuring you right here and now: you will be with me in paradise starting at an undefined moment in the future.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2013, 08:31:33 AM
God is eternal from our time related view. We simply can't truly grasp a timeless reality.
Plus I must say I'm not sure we are informed "heaven has no time"
True. As far as I know, we are not told in the scriptures that there is no time in heaven/the afterlife. The fact that the scripture says the with God a day is as a thousand years merely
suggests that the dimension of time is not a reality in heaven/afterlife.
Hard to say jb.
Ps 90:4 For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
---> 3 hours (watch) = 1000 years.
---> 24 hours (yesterday) = 1000 years.
2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
---> 24 hours = 1000 years.
---> 1000 years = 24 hours.
Time is mentioned but it doesn't make any sense mathematically.
So if the time reference really point to time it isn't linear time as we know it.
Angels sing and play music. Sound require time.
Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
---> That's only possible if there is time.
For me there are 2 possible conclusions
a] Time exist we will experience it vastly different.
b] Time doesn't exist and all time references are merely to get a message across.
Time can only exist if there is mass. But that's based on the physics of this universe and doesn't mean it can't be different.
So :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
Matt 27:50-54 (AKJV)
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
That was a resurrection before His 2nd coming. They died again?
It is my understanding that there is no before Father or after Father.
Below is the exact phrase.[/t]Ecc 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Ecc&c=1&t=DBY#9)That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which will be done: and there is nothing newunder the sun.[/t]
So no matter how we measure time, seasons or events, they mean nothing to Father. He is pure actuality and Thomas Aquinas speaks of this below. Father has no Before or After
With Much Love, Julie :HeartThrob:
Thomas Aquinas on Eternity (Nontemporality). God is not temporal (Summa Theologica, 1a. 10, 1). He is beyond time. Aquinas offers several arguments in support of this conclusion. The first argument goes:<blockquote>1. Whatever exists in time can be computed according to its befores and afters.
2. Changeless being, as God is, has no befores or afters; it is always the same.
3. Consequently, God must be timeless.</blockquote>Time is duration characterized by substantial and accidental changes. A substantial change is a change in what something is. An accidental change is a change in what something has. Growing knowledge is an accidental change in a being. Aquinas sees three levels of being in relation to time and eternity:
1. God is eternity is Pure Actuality, without essential or accidental change.
2. Angels and saints who dwell in the spiritual world of heaven live in aeviternity (or aevum).
3. Human beings, comprising soul and body, form and matter, live in time.Eternity (God) endures without any potency. Aeviternity (angels) endure with completely actualized potency. Their changes are not essential but accidental. Spiritual beings in aviternity do not change in their essence, though they do undergo accidental changes. Angels increase in knowledge by divine infusion, and they have changableness with regard to choice, intelligence, affections and places (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.6). But with no substantial changes in aeviterny, angels are immutable in their level of grace and charity.
What is true of the angels is also true of the elect in heaven.
Time (humanity) endures with progressive actualized potency.
The second argument for God's eternity similarly follows from immutability. It begins with the premise that whatever is immutable does not change in the state of its being. Whatever is in time goes through succession of states. So whatever is immutable is not temporable. This argument stresses another aspect of time; whatever is temporal has successive states, one after the other. God does not, so He is not temporal.
Total immutability necessarily implies eternity (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.2). For whatever changes substantially is in time and can be computed according to before and after. Whatever does not change cannot be in time, since it has no different states by which before and after can be computed. It never changes. Whatever does not change is not temporal. Not only is God eternal, but He alone is eternal (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.3), for He alone is essentially immutable.
Aquinas distinguishes eternity from endless time (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.4). First, whatever is essentially whole (eternity) is essentially different from what has parts (time). Eternity is now forever; time includes past, present, and future, now and then. The implication of this is that God's eternity is not divided; it is all present to Him in His eternal now. So it must be essentially different from time in successive moments.
Second, endless time is just more an elongation of time. But eternity differs qualitatively. It differs essentially, not merely accidentally. Eternity is an essential, changeless state of being that transcends moment-by-successive-moment reality. Time measures that reality, or rather the stage on which reality plays out.
Third, an eternal being cannot change, whereas time involves change. By change can measurements of before and after be made. Whatever can be computed according to before and after is not eternal. Endless time can be computed according to before and after. Hence, endless time is not the same as eternity. The eternal is changeless, but what can be computed by its before and after has changed. It follows, then, that the eternal now cannot live in relation to endless befores and afters.
Obviously, Aquinas saw a critical difference between the "now" of time, and the "now" of eternity. The now of time is moveable. The now of eternity is not moveable in any way. The eternal now is unchanging, but the now of time is ever changing. There is only an analogy between time and eternity; they cannot be the same. God's now has no past or future; time's now does.
Some has mistakenly concluded that Aquinas did not believe in God's duration for eternity, because he rejected temporality in God. Aquinas argued that duration occurs as long as actuality exists. But eternity, aeviternity, and time endure in different ways.
It follows, therefore that the essential difference in the quality of the duration in time, aeviternity, and eternity comes from the condition of the actuality. God is Pure Actuality. Angels have received total actuality from God in their created spiritual forms. Human beings progressively receive actuality in both spiritual form and material body.
Since God endures without potentiality, He cannot endure progressively. He endures in a much higher way -as Pure Actuality. |
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Julie,
What I'm missing is that article are verses.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2013, 12:39:06 AM
Julie,
What I'm missing is that article are verses.....
WW verses regarding?........
Father is before everything, time is just a physical constraint and is in a constant state of change. Something, thankfully Father is not. We must drop this notion that what Father has planned for us is going to happen in SOME future event. It cannot, because Father is EVERYTHING and everything that will occur on our plane, has already been accomplished in His. Can you even imagine how we can be living in duality. Our few years on this earth is just an instant while with Father.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Scripture is concerned with the eons which have a beginning and an end. It is only through the inaccurate translation of common bibles that we read about eternity. The Hebrew "olam" and the Greek "aion" both refer to a period of time, and their adjectives must refer to a period of time not eternity. Time seems to be finite to us. So it is hard to comprehend infinite time, but I try not to get too crazy trying to do so even though I believe the living God always was and always will be. I think it's sufficient to know all mankind will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons. We in the body of Christ will probably have a different concept of time and space while we are immortalized in spiritual bodies for the last two eons, but who knows what happens after the consummation of the eons? John 4:24 says God is spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:28 says God will be all in all. Romans 11:36 says all is out of, through, and into God. Maybe that's the answer.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
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Tom....I also wonder what "all in all" means. Why I'm jumping to that questions when I still have so many other questions regarding the eons is ridiculous; however, I always like to jump ahead. Am certain "all in all" is something my simple little brain cannot imagine. It will be good though...of that I'm certain.
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)
28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)
28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)
Now I'm really confused. If God is ALL in Christ now, how will Christ and his body be given unto God to become "all in all" at the reconciliation. That really jumbles my mind. :eek:
Please excuse the word "reconciliation". What I meant was the "consummation" (end of the eons).
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 27, 2013, 02:27:35 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2013, 12:39:06 AM
Julie,
What I'm missing is that article are verses.....
WW verses regarding?........
Verses that prove there is or is not time in heaven
The author make claims like
- Whatever exists in time can be computed according to its befores and afters
--> Not necessarily. That's only so if we use 4 dimensions.
But that's theory. Where are the verses....?
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 27, 2013, 02:27:35 AMOur few years on this earth is just an instant while with Father.
There are no instants in timelesness.
All our reasoning somehow refers to our own perception of time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
Watch 1:10 - 1:25
It's about how people in a 2D world experience a 3D object.
2D people have the same problem grasping 3D as we have problems understanding extra dimensions.
But.... this isn't science class. That's why I asked verses.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2013, 12:32:29 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 27, 2013, 02:27:35 AMOur few years on this earth is just an instant while with Father.
There are no instants in timelesness.
All our reasoning somehow refers to our own perception of time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4)
Watch 1:10 - 1:25
It's about how people in a 2D world experience a 3D object.
2D people have the same problem grasping 3D as we have problems understanding extra dimensions.
But.... this isn't science class. That's why I asked verses.
WhiteWings :HeartThrob:
This is where one has to take what has been given to make something in much of the same way as the parable of the talents of silver. It was not enough to just hold onto it.
First off. Time consists of three phases:
* Past
* Present
* Future
Age is a measurement of time since to given points. Is Father older today than yesterday? By our understanding, of course. As we, as is He. Right? :HeartThrob: Fortunately, no. Because we cannot and must not measure Father by our ways as his ways are ever so much higher.
Isa 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Father cannot change, for he is pure ACUTALITY.
(Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Psalm 102:26-27; Malachi 3:6; Romans 11:29; Hebrews 6:17-18; James 1:17)
Father cannot grow old, neither can he grow in wisdom. He is UTTER completness, their is nothing that He is without. Father NEEDS nothing, He lacks nothing. He is not dependant on anyone, or anything.
Time exists because of Father, not Father because of time. There is no "effect" in Father because He is the "Cause" of everything.
Without Father, there woould not even be NOTHING as nothing denotes a lack of something. Everything would be NULL
Dear WW, Father simply IS and WE ARE. That is enough for me.
Pure Actuallity, what a concept! Father IS. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Love Julie :girlheart:
Quote from: bj127 on August 27, 2013, 06:45:41 AM
28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)
Now I'm really confused. If God is ALL in Christ now, how will Christ and his body be given unto God to become "all in all" at the reconciliation. That really jumbles my mind. :eek:
My perspective is that the saints, the body of Christ, will be immortalized long before those who died as unbelievers who will be immortalized at the consummation. It is then that God will be "all in all" or everything to everybody. God's will will be everybody's will. Everybody will be filled with God's love to the max! Don't let the word "all" mess with your mind. It's hard to conceive that all on earth and in heaven will be reconciled because that is not what we were taught by the church, but even the corrupt translations used by the church say that all are reconciled. It is my belief that "all" means "all."
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/TheGrandestTruth.html
Quote from: bj127 on August 27, 2013, 06:45:41 AM
28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)
Now I'm really confused. If God is ALL in Christ now, how will Christ and his body be given unto God to become "all in all" at the reconciliation. That really jumbles my mind. :eek:
Good question!
What does "all in" mean?
a] The complete being/person of Father is inside Jesus.
b] The full personality/love/etc is in Jesus.
I think the answer is B.