The Scriptures on the Narrow Gate do not point to Universal Salvation.

[Universalist Catholic]

People since the Time of Augustine have always used Matthew 7:13-14 as proof that most souls are doomed to suffer for all eternity.  
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Augustine believed that, Thomas Aquintas believed that, Theresa Avila believed that, John Calvin believed that, Johnathan Edwards believed that, John Hagee believes that.  Many modern day Catholic and Mainline Churches no longer accept that doctrine anymore, or try to explain it away somehow.  
However a better description of the "Narrow Gate" can be found in Luke 13:22-35

22And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and (Y)proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"(Z)Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and (AA)shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, '(AB)Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, '(AC)I do not know where you are from.' 26"Then you will (AD)begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27and He will say, 'I tell you, (AE)I do not know where you are from; (AF)DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'28"(AG)In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29"And they (AH)will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30"And behold, (AI)some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."

If the Ultra religious were to read that scripture in its full context, they would not be able to support the doctrine of Eternal Torment to most of Humanity.  First off, its in present tense about those finding Christianity.  "We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets."  Sounds like those ultra-religious Fundamentalists who think that they know Jesus the best, and therefore one of the few who get to reign in the kingdom while the rest suffer forever.  You don't hear anyone saying "I never killed anyone", "I never stole", "I gave to Charity", "I loved my family", "I cared for my ailing mother".  Yet Fundamentalist preachers constantly bark today that none of that matters, as long as you believe in the correct doctrine, your good to go.  But those who were righteous all go to hell according to them.  However the passage goes on telling us about more people coming to Christ all over the world.  The Pharisees are still on the outside angry about being kicked out.  However then "The last are first and the First are last".  All those people the Pharisees condemned would naturally be entering the kingdom before them.  Any different today?  Absolutely not.  How many people do we see today who are ultra-religious, by taking advantage of sacraments, being born again, joining a certain religion, following the letter word for word, then going around judging everyone else, condemning everyone else to hell for not being religious enough.  In fact, I don't think that I have ever witnessed more foul fruits than in the ultra religious.  One person I remember wrote that she wishes all Catholics were "Cafeteria Catholics"  Because she knew a strict hardcore family who disowned a son for not becoming a priest.  Yet I have never heard of that in a mild mannered Catholic family.  On youtube, anytime I see an evangelical video, my blood really starts boiling about how horrible their behavior is towards everyone who disagrees with them, and their prideful apologetic ministries out attacking everyone, its just awful.  Yet they think that they are the first, while all those people they mock are going to hell.  But it doesn't sound like they will be the special group that gets to sit on their throne watching everyone they hate burn forever, but will have to wait longer to get into the kingdom than any prostitute, hindu, homosexual, cafeteria Christian, or atheist.  

The title had a type error

[Molly]

I think he's talking to the Jews there when he says--


'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27and He will say, 'I tell you, (AE)I do not know where you are from; (AF)DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'28"(AG)In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29"And they (AH)will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30"And behold, (AI)some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."


The narrow door is Jesus.  Because they are rejecting him, they will be thrown out [of the feast], even though he is one of them.

[Nathan]

I believe it was due to the fact that their identity with God was in their activity.  That's the first thing they reverted to when there was any question to them being accepted.  It was all based on their accomplishments.  Not on their relationship with the Father.  "I never Knew you" is a term of intimacy.  Adam "knew" Eve and produced Abel.

The church does love it's ministries.  But in the kingdom, everything is opposite from what we "think" it'd be.  God just wants us to be a friend to others . .. let our lives do the preaching.

[reFORMer]

Matthew 7^13-14; (Concordant Literal Translation)
13 Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it.

Everybody is entering.  Jesus words first are an admonishment to enter the difficult way that is far less commonly found than the spacious way that will eventually be by destruction, for "every man's work will be tried by fire for what it is."  Nobody will escape God.

Even now, words of complete victory are something fought by many who claim to be followers of The Way.

(John 11^25-26; CLT)
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?

Many self-described as "believers" won't accept these two words side by side that Jesus spoke.  They insert the modifying word, "spiritual."  He's talking about "spiritual" life and death, they say.   They have been wrongly taught there is no more chance for salvation after we die.  This I say to point out it is not commonplace, even among Christians, to also believe that by living and believing in Jesus we can come into the place where we never die.  This is in spite of the fact, "We shall not all sleep, but we MUST be changed...For this corruptible MUST put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. (1 Co 15^51,53; vs.53: CLT)  During our condition of being with corruptible flesh, having a mortal body, walking in union with the Spirit of "The Resurrection and The Life" there is an testimony pressing into our consciousness that we, "MUST put on incorruption."  The dead, whose flesh is corrupting as corpses, they cannot do it.  "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor 15⁵⁰; AV)

Though we have believed, yet we have experienced much destruction that cleared the way to the opened door unto God.  This is the present dilemma.  How do we enter by life?  "The Life" is something Jesus is to us.  He must give Himself to us.  Most of those who came out of Egypt under Moses did not enter in under Yeshua.  As in Hebrews 4¹¹ it says, "We should be endeavoring, then, to be entering into that stopping, lest anyone should be falling into the same example of stubbornness."

[Molly]

Most of those who came out of Egypt under Moses did not enter in under Yeshua.

They didn't enter in because they didn't believe God.

Hebrews 3:18
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

This I say to point out it is not commonplace, even among Christians, to also believe that by living and believing in Jesus we can come into the place where we never die.

I believe that.  If we've already passed over from death to life, how could we die?  It might look that way to others if our bodies are not resurrected yet.  That's all.  But, do we believe him or not?

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

[Beloved Servant]

The Heavenly Cloud Now Breaking:

www.iinet.com/~passtheword/Jane-Lead/heav-cld-2Ed.htm

[Paul Hazelwood]

Once a person can start reading the word for word ancient text you realize how many words in both translations and doctrine that you will not find written there.

Matthew 7:13 is a description of two ways to enter the same place.

It is a common sense description to remind us that we do not escape reaping what we sow.

Luke gives more detail concerning rhe same thing.

[micah7:9]

Once a person can start reading the word for word ancient text you realize how many words in both translations and doctrine that you will not find written there.

Matthew 7:13 is a description of two ways to enter the same place.

It is a common sense description to remind us that we do not escape reaping what we sow.

Luke gives more detail concerning rhe same thing.

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Matthew 7^13-14; (Concordant Literal Translation)
13 Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it.

Everybody is entering.  Jesus words first are an admonishment to enter the difficult way that is far less commonly found than the spacious way that will eventually be by destruction, for "every man's work will be tried by fire for what it is."  Nobody will escape God.

Even now, words of complete victory are something fought by many who claim to be followers of The Way.

(John 11^25-26; CLT)
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?

Many self-described as "believers" won't accept these two words side by side that Jesus spoke.  They insert the modifying word, "spiritual."  He's talking about "spiritual" life and death, they say.   They have been wrongly taught there is no more chance for salvation after we die.  This I say to point out it is not commonplace, even among Christians, to also believe that by living and believing in Jesus we can come into the place where we never die.  This is in spite of the fact, "We shall not all sleep, but we MUST be changed...For this corruptible MUST put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. (1 Co 15^51,53; vs.53: CLT)  During our condition of being with corruptible flesh, having a mortal body, walking in union with the Spirit of "The Resurrection and The Life" there is an testimony pressing into our consciousness that we, "MUST put on incorruption."  The dead, whose flesh is corrupting as corpses, they cannot do it.  "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor 15⁵⁰; AV)

Though we have believed, yet we have experienced much destruction that cleared the way to the opened door unto God.  This is the present dilemma.  How do we enter by life?  "The Life" is something Jesus is to us.  He must give Himself to us.  Most of those who came out of Egypt under Moses did not enter in under Yeshua.  As in Hebrews 4¹¹ it says, "We should be endeavoring, then, to be entering into that stopping, lest anyone should be falling into the same example of stubbornness."

:thumbsup:

[Universalist Catholic]

I think he's talking to the Jews there when he says--


'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27and He will say, 'I tell you, (AE)I do not know where you are from; (AF)DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'28"(AG)In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29"And they (AH)will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30"And behold, (AI)some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."



The narrow door is Jesus.  Because they are rejecting him, they will be thrown out [of the feast], even though he is one of them.

At that time he was talking to the Jews, but this also applies to the modern Church today.

[jabcat]

I believe Jesus' earthly ministry was about this;
 

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."  NIV

Then Jesus said to the *woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."  NLT  (*Gentile woman)

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."  ESV

Matthew 15:24

So IMO, many/most of His direct statements had to do with the Kingdom as having to do with the Jews, His people who were under the Law and were rejecting Him.  I believe this included much of the events prior to 70 AD - then with perhaps multiple fulfillment(s) for them later.  (Certainly we can learn from it, all the scriptures are for our instuction.)  Post-cross and with the grafting in of the Gentiles, the focus changed.   :2c:

[gky]

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

Though this text has had a forboding tone to it (at least the way it's presented behind traditional church pulpits), it could be taken as a backhanded confirmation of UR.  Eventually, everyone does get in - it's just a matter of WHEN.

[WhiteWings]

For this part that seems so ""So the last shall be first, and the first last:"

But this part gets twisted into Calvinism "for many be called, but few chosen."
And with that the first part is only about the chosen ones.

[WhiteWings]

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."  ESV Matthew 15:24

So IMO, many/most of His direct statements had to do with the Kingdom as having to do with the Jews, His people who were under the Law and were rejecting Him.  I believe this included much of the events prior to 70 AD - then with perhaps multiple fulfillment(s) for them later.  (Certainly we can learn from it, all the scriptures are for our instuction.)  Post-cross and with the grafting in of the Gentiles, the focus changed.   :2c:

Especially in the early days Christians were Jews(=sheep) that have been found (converted)
I wonder if a Jew is still a Jew if s/he has a Christain way of living....
If not then the goal is to have no house of Israel. Or an empty house...

[Nathan]

I believe Jesus' earthly ministry was about this;
 

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."  NIV

Then Jesus said to the *woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."  NLT  (*Gentile woman)

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."  ESV

Matthew 15:24

So IMO, many/most of His direct statements had to do with the Kingdom as having to do with the Jews, His people who were under the Law and were rejecting Him.  I believe this included much of the events prior to 70 AD - then with perhaps multiple fulfillment(s) for them later.  (Certainly we can learn from it, all the scriptures are for our instuction.)  Post-cross and with the grafting in of the Gentiles, the focus changed.   :2c:

Oh yes, Originally Jesus was focusing on the Jews, which again was what we were talking about on the other thread pertaining to Daniel's 70 weeks, it was set aside specifically for the Jews . . .Jesus was fulfilling that.

Peter's dream introduced the inclusing of the Gentiles with the sheet full of animals, clean and unclean coming down from heaven.  And then, even though Peter saw the spirit pour out on the Gentiles, that was not the direction of his ministry.  He stayed in Jerusalem with the Jews and it was Paul that took the baton and ran with it to the Gentiles.

It almost happened simultaneously in that Paul's converstion happened in chapter 9 of Acts and Peter's dream came in chapter 10 Stephen was martyred at the end of chapter 7 and beginning of chapter 8.  Chapter 8 then goes into detail of how people were scattered abroad due to the explosion of persecution that Stephen's martyrdom triggered.  And all the reports from there on out had to do with the saving of Gentiles.  Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks had been fulfilled, the time set aside for the Jews was over and now the days of the Gentiles had begun.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:  Some may call that "dispensationalism", and it probably can be taken into extremes - most things can.  But I believe what's being described here is properly dividing (cutting, lit.) the word of truth - which we're told to do.  That's the way I see it anyway.  

There've already been a lot of good comments re: the OP, so I'll just sort of generally suggest, that if we don't divide word of truth correctly, I believe we can misunderstand and misapply scriptural concepts.  I personally don't think it's (rightly dividing) an easy thing to do, and I personally have sworn up and down I was right about something, only to find later I was misinterpreting.   :mblush:

How many different Christian denominations, sects, and splinter groups are there, and do any of them believe they are wrong?  So isn't the prayer, "God give me wisdom, help me see, let me know..and help me love anyway"?  God bless.  

[reFORMer]

The Heavenly Cloud Now Breaking:

www.iinet.com/~passtheword/Jane-Lead/heav-cld-2Ed.htm

Thank you for such a singularly important site!  Many have thought that Jane Lead entered into immortality in unique portions, even as Enoch, Elijah, Melchizedek and certain others.  This is the "one thing" no less than Paul the Apostle pressed in to attain by any means possible.

[jabcat]

It is a common sense description to remind us that we do not escape reaping what we sow.

I think the concept of there being both a judgment regarding salvation (belief on Jesus Christ as Savior) and one of works, may be helpful.  Not completely settled on it yet, but if we can separate out and understand the two, as well as who and what's primarily being addressed, maybe these verses come into clearer light.

I'm not sure Jesus was actually talking to these folks about whether they would ultimately be saved or not, but more so as Paul said above, they'll reap what they sow (and they did) - and will STILL have to come to the place of recognizing Jesus as Savior and trusting in Him.   Part of our reaping can actually help bring us to that place of repentance and belief, in my understanding. 

[Beloved Servant]

The Heavenly Cloud Now Breaking:

www.iinet.com/~passtheword/Jane-Lead/heav-cld-2Ed.htm

Thank you for such a singularly important site!  Many have thought that Jane Lead entered into immortality in unique portions, even as Enoch, Elijah, Melchizedek and certain others.  This is the "one thing" no less than Paul the Apostle pressed in to attain by any means possible.

Hallelujah reFORMer.
My spirit leaps with joy for you and prays for your resolve.

[Quaesitor]

But it doesn't sound like they will be the special group that gets to sit on their throne watching everyone they hate burn forever, but will have to wait longer to get into the kingdom than any prostitute, hindu, homosexual, cafeteria Christian, or atheist

.

I love that.

The Lord talked to me about that yesterday.
He impressed me with a strong drive to help the poors and suffering ones.
I thought then about the rich man and the part where Jesus talks about rich ones having their rewards already.
And Paul saying that there's no one powerfull or noble among them but that God chooses the foul things to show His glory.
That's not in any ETers head because all they think about is convincing people of their sins and how to repent to go to heavens but if we are called to proclaim and ACT the Gospel, it brings us to the poors and little ones!
There'll be gnashing of teeth when homosexuals are entering the Kingdom before the Religious of this World.
I hope I'm kicked out of church because I want to give my sundays to the King, not singing and hearing carnal sermons!

[micah7:9]

Jabcat "How many different Christian denominations, sects, and splinter groups are there, and do any of them believe they are wrong?  So isn't the prayer, "God give me wisdom, help me see, let me know..and help me love anyway"?  God bless. "

We are firends because of Jesus and His Love. It is only on this site that I know you, Thank you James.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[jabcat]

Thanks micah.  Will pray for you brother.

[Cardinal]

The Heavenly Cloud Now Breaking:

www.iinet.com/~passtheword/Jane-Lead/heav-cld-2Ed.htm

:cloud9: Thanks.....added to my favorites list for reading when I have more time..... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Just another perspective..

The narrow road is that road in which the condemned walk alone with Christ into death(if anyone would be my disciple.....)- which is the gate into life.

The wide road is full of those who live unto themselves, not knowing the crucified life, carrying baggage full of their own reputations, or the pleasures of the world and the mind- in whom the crucified life has not born fruit in the manifestation of the divine nature. Full of self- in Christ's name or out of it- they are dead even as they live, and suffer the woes of death(death reigns in Adam).

[JohnnyCatholic12]

I think he's talking to the Jews there when he says--


'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27and He will say, 'I tell you, (AE)I do not know where you are from; (AF)DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'28"(AG)In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29"And they (AH)will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30"And behold, (AI)some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."



The narrow door is Jesus.  Because they are rejecting him, they will be thrown out [of the feast], even though he is one of them.

At that time he was talking to the Jews, but this also applies to the modern Church today.

Hey UC, apologies for the off-topicness of this but I can't send a PM.  How do you as a Catholic reconcile your personal views of UR with the official teaching of the Church?  I ask because I have strong UR leanings but I'm un-sure how to reconcile that with the Church.  Much thanks for any response.