the problem of the philosophical/psychological impact of Eternal Torment Views

[anti_nietzsche]

Maybe there is a problem with ET (Eternal Torment) theology that goes deeper than it just being an interpretation of scripture. I mean, think about it soberly and rationally. In our world we have established religions, and we have sects and cults. The thing which in (german) public opinion separates a religion from a sect is that a religion contributes to having a good society and a good life, it should help and comfort people.

But then, really, we have Eternal Torment ideas in christianity. What do they mean? It means that people who believe in the creeds of this religion, depending perhaps a bit on personal disposition, must always examine themselves, must always be on their toes. It seems logical to me that when you allow your deity to do great evil to other people, then this deity necessarily becomes less of a comforting presence in your life but instead a source of turmoil, fear and maybe even horror. It doesn't make much sense anymore to build a good society. Society doesn't matter anymore - the christian is not supposed to love the world. The sick and the poor don't matter so much anymore - only a few of them will get saved anyway so they're not part of our christian eternity club and that's it!

There is a particular way of coping with things like Eternal Torment ideas. It is, for example, to become insensitive to it, to detach yourself from the "unsaved" unless there is a chance to recruit them to my christian salvation club. God is described as only seeking worshipers who have to praise him all the time for saving THEM - as opposed to saving all of mankind and the WHOLE UNIVERSE too!

Somehow we've been messing up the idea of mankind. God is only the God of mankind insofar as he is our judge and lord - not our father. Can a truly good father condemn any of his children to eternal torment, even to eternal death? Does that make sense? Is God so fixated on laws and regulations that demand punishment that he can't say, no, wait a moment, this is my child, I am the Almighty God and I can rescue it, so I will do it?

For me, personally, Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross in fact was the beginning of a new era for humanity. Instead of the laughable and squabbling gods of the pagans, the unconcerned and distant god of the epicurean philosophers and instead of the legalistic god of the jews at that time, we have Jesus who brings God as our own father. Yes, Jesus and God are Lord - but this is not so that he could lord things over us. Instead God occupies the Lord position so that the devil or ourselves can't occupy it. If we could be trusted we might as well have called an election for president of the universe - only the Almighty and Omniscient God could be fit for the job.

But if we use the Eternal Torment theology, all of this means very little. Sentient life goes down the drain, and that not just temporarily. We dig up the most ancient of principles, ruthless vengeance, merciless punishment, exceeding wrath... the whole arsenal of primitive evil, and that would not be used by vile human dictators but instead by God whom we otherwise describe as the pure good, as the source of all goodness.

I suppose we have to live with the idea that God sometimes creates tragedy and disaster on Earth. That is something the jews witnessed, the bible records it in the story of Noah too, there are many examples really. But these tragedies and disasters can have very good results, I know my race and how proud we can be and how easily we get used to our riches and that we can become decadent. That God prevents us from having an easy life all the time may actually be very good for us. But consider the Eternal Torment theology ... if you look through the whole theological system of this set of ideas, God actually resurrects people, brings them back from the grave, in order to damn them to a hell of regret and suffering that would go on for all of eternity! There is no God in this who loves a man and who would see himself as his father. There is no God in that whom we could trust that he would rather die to save instead of letting men and the world perish forever!

That is what we are dealing with. Eternal Torment is a hellish idea, it is something for a sect, something to use to get power over people, something to impress the fearful and the stupid with. But it is not something that we can allow a respected religion to teach without being opposed.

[ded2daworld]

In a nutshell, it's having power over people. The church can't control you or guilt trip you if you know
the God that is love. With ET's and all other religions and sects, you never know if you've "done enough" to please your God or to get into his heaven. Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, hindus, buddhists, muslims, all have things they must "DO" while with UR and the Bible agrees, it is already "DONE."
A perfect example is my wife, an ET'er. She loves the Lord and believes she is saved, BUT, she was converted and went to a denomination for 20 years that pounded into her head ET and possibly losing her salvation so that she also would be ET'ed.
Bless her heart, she is so afraid of hell that she regularly confides in me that she fears I will go there based on my not agreeing with her on that point. :doh:

[shawn]

ET was the number one reason I had doubts about my faith.  The thoughts of ET were tormenting, and provided much anxiety.  That doesn't sound like freedom or peace.  It sounds more like abuse.  I call it religious abuse to twist the Scriptures into a weapon in which we control.

[WhiteWings]

Spiritual Terrorism: Spiritual Abuse From The Womb To The Tomb

[WhiteWings]

Bless her heart, she is so afraid of hell that she regularly confides in me that she fears I will go there based on my not agreeing with her on that point. :doh:

The Bible is quite simple about that. Believing in Jesus saves.
Nowhere is mentioned we also must believe in hell and soem other denominational things.

[ded2daworld]

It soothes her to hear me say that, "I'm trusting in the shed blood of Jesus, God in the flesh, to save me from what I cannot save myself from."
He calls me His friend and a child of His. I need nothing more.

[eaglesway]

I have been told so many times I am going to hell for not believing in hell and teaching that there is no "hell"(over fiery eternal torment or annihilation) that I think some people believe that their "belief in hell" is powerful enough to send me there HAHAHAHAH.

I actualy had one person say to me, "Yea, but if there is a hell, i will not go because I believe it, and you will go there because you don't. If I agree with you, and you are wrong, I will go to hell with you."

Such fear, such intimidation not to seek and to ask and to knock.

Wow.

It is just mind-blowing, and I am so grateful to God for His grace in allowing us to see through this veil- and I pray with tears that God would set His children free from their blindness and their "not knowing" who He is and Why He has done and is doing all that this good news of ours proclaims.

BEHOLD, I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW!

[shawn]

The blinders are fear.  Those who fear haven't been perfected in love.  I pray that God removes the fear so the blinders will fall and the world may be perfected in love.

[gasman]

Even when I didn't know about salvation of all, I have to say that I struggled with the concept of hell. It always felt against the nature of God. I would have to condemn all of my family. There is a real culture of fear in christianity. Even a survivalist mentality and a smugness that says "I'm ok, but you aren't". It says that the death of Jesus Christ didn't count for some people and that never sat right with me. Unfortunately christians in general are not teachable and they are intransigent and inflexible. Until God softens their hearts and the fallow ground has been plowed then they will never receive the truth. The spirit of God must draw (drag) them.  Then there is the fact that most of them have a very poor knowledge of the word. They prefer a chopped up, gristly spam of belief instead of partaking of the true feast. It gives you a different perspective as to who really are "The Lost"  :Chinscratch:

[ded2daworld]

Right on Gasman (showing my age) (and welcome)
Be like the Bereans, who would listen to Paul and then
check what he had said against scripture.
If all in the churches would investigate rather than vegetate or castigate,
ET would probably end up being an embarassing memory for most.

[eaglesway]

Even when I didn't know about salvation of all, I have to say that I struggled with the concept of hell. It always felt against the nature of God. I would have to condemn all of my family. There is a real culture of fear in christianity. Even a survivalist mentality and a smugness that says "I'm ok, but you aren't". It says that the death of Jesus Christ didn't count for some people and that never sat right with me. Unfortunately christians in general are not teachable and they are intransigent and inflexible. Until God softens their hearts and the fallow ground has been plowed then they will never receive the truth. The spirit of God must draw (drag) them.  Then there is the fact that most of them have a very poor knowledge of the word. They prefer a chopped up, gristly spam of belief instead of partaking of the true feast. It gives you a different perspective as to who really are "The Lost"  :Chinscratch:

:goodpost: