The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[jabcat]

Yes, ID, good points.  And good job everyone, keeping this on track...the spirit is good, sharing AS WE SEE IT, AS WE UNDERSTAND it...as pneuma said, we have the light that's given us...I REALLY believe God brings us each along at His pace, we're at different points.  For instance, the preacher who preaches hell-fire will one day be allowed a different view  :thumbsup:, as were we...IMO, same in MANY other areas.  Carry on  :thumbsup:.

[sheila]

 mankind can and does  learn from positive and negative

lessons.

  We can and  do learn obediance from suffering for

disobediance.Whether it be our own or someone elses.

  We can and do learn righteousness and peace , the fruit

  of positive as well

   Paul spoke of us being a spectacle...there is more to what he

said about that. Ezekiel speaks of wings full of eyes, newly

resurrected men raised to heaven actually watch us wrestle with

these principalities of darkness.

   They watch the wicked forces lay traps and deception and

snares to entangle and overcome men into sin.

   They see the Holy spirit resisting the machinations.

    So, we do in fact suffer for the benefit of others in many

   different ways.

    There is always a plot,an adversary and an overcomer

  in every good moral lesson story

[sheila]

 For instance...

   taken any good vs evil movie. See the hidden agenda

  that you as the watcher see, but the one conspired against is

  unaware of.

   Also, to further assure that we know evil is approaching the

unsuspecting character in the movie...there will be the

familiar sound effects so you will know it is approaching

though the character be taken totally by surprise.

   You have eyes of discernment to see what is going on

  behind the scenes..whereas the character is often oblivious

to the evil plot being implemented  against him

[peacemaker]

Jesus was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the world 

[Paraphrased]

Jesus was BUTCHERED (violently murdered, or slain) because of the DISPOSITION AND OPPOSITION (foundation) of the INHABITANTS (world).

It seems to me that the death of Jesus was brought about through human decisions, given the political and religious powers of the day. Although at the same time, Jesus was fully aware that his message (the Kingdom) and what he represented to the status quo would ultimately lead to a violent death, thus, his life was an issue in setting the captives free from the established religiosity of the sects.  But his death was not divinely foreordained as a penal substitution, whereas, no greater love than to lay one's own life down for that of another. 

peacemaker

[jabcat]

God takes responsibility...IMO, God doesn't ask to be "taken off the hook".  I believe I'm accountable to humble myself before His Almighty Hand and "let" Him change me with whatever His truths may be.  Fail often, but accountable still.

For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. Romans 11:32

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free...Romans 8:20,21

J. Preston Eby states "the Holy Spirit has shed precious light upon this wonder, revealing that the Christ is "the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) who verily was "a LAMB without blemish or spot...foreordained before the foundation of the world" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

[jabcat]

20 The fact that Christ's sacrifice was foreknown even before the disruption throws a
marvelous light upon God's plan and purpose. It shows that sacrifice is not an afterthought
intended to repair an unforeseen disaster, but that it precedes sin, and that sin was introduced
to give it occasion. Speaking as a man, there never would have been sin unless God had
previously prepared a Sacrifice, and neither should be considered by itself, but as one of the
necessary factors in God's great purpose to reveal the deep recesses of His love and the
boundless expanse of His affection.    Concordant Commentary of I Peter 1:20

[reFORMer]

Being joined by God as Spirit to that body on the cross, being "one spirit" with Him, we are members of one another and His death is mine.  It is actual union, not substitution, in this regard.

[Molly]

20 The fact that Christ's sacrifice was foreknown even before the disruption throws a
marvelous light upon God's plan and purpose. It shows that sacrifice is not an afterthought
intended to repair an unforeseen disaster, but that it precedes sin, and that sin was introduced
to give it occasion. Speaking as a man, there never would have been sin unless God had
previously prepared a Sacrifice, and neither should be considered by itself, but as one of the
necessary factors in God's great purpose to reveal the deep recesses of His love and the
boundless expanse of His affection.    Concordant Commentary of I Peter 1:20

The sacrifice precedes sin because it is the innocent (lamb) who are slain.

The slain lamb IS the foundation of the world.


4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

--Gen 3


..she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

--Gen 3


Isn't that the beginning of the whole story?  Without that, you have no story.



1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[jabcat]

I certainly don't disagree with that Molly, there seems to be "a good foundation"  :bigGrin: to make that statement...my main point with the Concordant piece was to try to show an explanation that is based on scripture, mainly regarding when He was slain...that it was Father's intent, not some sort of Plan B because man messed up His original plan, so then God had to scramble at some later point in history to come up with a way to fix it...to somehow figure a way to then make good out of it. 

[Molly]

Luke 11:50
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;


John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[jabcat]

Yes, Molly.  Jesus foreordained to be our Savior, us foreordained to eventually be reconciled through our Savior...each in his own order...as I understand, at least a huge part of God's plan.

[Molly]

What does this mean?

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..


I mean, how would that work practically speaking..?

[sheila]

 Isaaih 45;10  woe to him who says to his father,

   'what have you begotten? or to his mother.

  'what have you brought to birth?'

   v 11...concerning things to come, do you question me about

my children, or gve me orders about the work of my hands?

   It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it.

   My own hands stretched out the heavens,

   I marshalled their starry hosts. I will raise up Cyrus

  in my righteousness; I will make all his ways straight

   He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free,

   but not for a price or reward,says the Almighty

[Cardinal]

What does this mean?

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..

I mean, how would that work practically speaking..?

:cloud9: It would work in that we (before "falling" to this realm) were one with Him in Spirit, not AS one, but as two MADE one, ie. like a man and his wife are one. We were lowered into the bondage of corruption (these mortal bodies). He was made (lowered) a little lower than the ANGELS; so were we. Blessings...

[Zeek]

Rom 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.


Who intended it to be for life?? 


If it was God's intent, then how did it become a way to death??  If God intended it for life, then why would HE have slain Jesus in his intent first?? 

Hos 6:6  For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...

[Zeek]

:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...

yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning? 

if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death. 


For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good. 

[sheila]

 the commandment had to be fulfilled through obediance

to bring life.

   the utter sinfulness of sin had to be exposed through

   rising up and killing us throught the commandment that was

to life

[Molly]

:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...

yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning? 

if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death. 


For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good. 

The original command was intended for life.


16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

--Gen 3


As soon as Adam is put in the garden and given the command, he becomes al Adam [god/Man, or God's man, or Man of the Most High].

He's given power over life and death.


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[Zeek]

the commandment had to be fulfilled through obediance

to bring life.

   the utter sinfulness of sin had to be exposed through

   rising up and killing us throught the commandment that was

to life

Jesus fulfilled the law, bringing life, through obedience without the law exposing sin in him and killing him.  

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, but some other points to think about. Jesus was only doing what He saw His Head do (slain from the foundation). He laid down his life (no man took it), just as the Lamb was slain willingly from the foundation of the world.

All things were created thru Christ; that is the "death" He willingly endured in the creating of the foundation of the world, in being lowered in form. The thought of God's heart became visible in the creation, and He, in a sense, sanctified that creation with His own blood.

He saw the end from the beginning and saw that blood would be needed as there is no remission from sin without the shedding of blood. With God in His perfect will, He knows what we have need of BEFORE we ask (or have need of it) and it is provided just like the coin in the fish's mouth, before the need arises. Blessings...

[Zeek]

:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...

yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning? 

if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death. 


For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good. 

The original command was intended for life.


16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

--Gen 3


As soon as Adam is put in the garden and given the command, he becomes al Adam [god/Man, or God's man, or Man of the Most High].

He's given power over life and death.


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

So Molly, do you see God as having planned/intended for Jesus to be slain prior to Adam eating of the fruit??  

[Molly]

So Molly, do you see God as having planned/intended for Jesus to be slain prior to Adam eating of the fruit

I actually think He left it up to Adam, since he gave Adam the choice, and Adam was not deceived (having the breath of God).

I think Adam is the one who lowered the creation into futility, in hope...

But, God was there, always, to make things right.

Although I don't think you will find this a popular belief...

[Zeek]

So Molly, do you see God as having planned/intended for Jesus to be slain prior to Adam eating of the fruit

I actually think He left it up to Adam, since he gave Adam the choice, and Adam was not deceived (having the breath of God).

I think Adam is the one who lowered the creation into futility, in hope...

But, God was there, always, to make things right.

Although I don't think you will find this a popular belief...

thanks,

i've been pondering now for some time, the "Adam wasn't deceived".  He was a special guy, imo; and "chose" death over life. 

Hence; the need for a fulfillment of the law, which came through ONE, the last Adam. 

[Molly]

Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], is God's masterpiece of creation. It is satan who would tell man otherwise, in order to manipulate man into choosing death.


Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.


"fearfully"

H3372
ירא
yârê'
yaw-ray'
A primitive root; to fear; morally to revere; causatively to frighten: - affright, be (make) afraid, dread (-ful), (put in) fear (-ful, -fully, -ing). (be had in) reverence (-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).


"wonderfully"

H6395
פּלה
pâlâh
paw-law'
A primitive root; to distinguish (literally or figuratively): - put a difference, show marvellous, separate, set apart, sever, make wonderfully.



27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

--Gen 1