The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Zeek]

hi Scott,

I appreciate your view, and willingness to share.  Gives me some things to think about. 

Where do you see "forgive them for they know not what they do" come in versus "not being deceived". 

Adam was not deceived.  I think that is key.  He walked with God, he was mature, and knew Love, but chose to disobey

Eve on the other hand, disobeyed from a place of being deceived.  She was imo deceived; not having knowledge of love. 

Do you see Adam and Eve and "in all of us, two separate components of our mind?" or as two separate individuals in the world today??  or what do you see??

thanks

Z

[trettep]

Jesus Christ is the only road we travel that leads to the Father.  But it is not the only road we travel on that God intended us to travel on.

Again here are two roads that God intended us to travel that are not yet the road of following Christ:

1. God intended that I should hear the truth through the foolishness of preaching.  That hearing leads to faith.  So that road is traveled prior to having faith and therefore prior to following Jesus Christ.

2. God ordained the Law to be my schoolmaster to lead me to Christ.  Once faith comes, once I am married to Christ, I am no longer under that schoolmaster.  So the road I travel under the schoolmaster precedes faith, precedes being married to Christ.  It is not the road that leads to the Father, but is a precursor to getting on that road.

Both of those are roads God intended man to travel on prior to faith but they are not synonomous with following Christ.

The scriptures say God planned for pharoah disobey God's command.  It even states why God intended it.  That road for pharoah was not the way.  It did not lead the pharoah to the Father.  But it is yet another example of something God intended that was not the Way to the Father.

Hi Bob, this is all AFTER man was disobedient and brought death into the world, God uses these things to weave us back to His WAYS.

I do realize it.  Yes that is what it implies, at least in general.

Then I don't know how you can believe it bro.

Your belief does absolutely nothing to make God "more innocent" regarding these issues.  To be frank it is mere hand-waving.

If a child is abused by a pedophile either
1. God can not stop it
2. God chooses not to stop it

If God can not stop it then God is not omnipotent.
If God chooses not to stop it then God chooses for it happen.

If His WILL was being done on earth as it is in HEAVEN then these things would be stopped Bob. Man made his bed in hell through disobedience and God keeps telling man to repent and OBEY His voice and none of these things will come nigh our dwelling place.

ALL His ways are LIFE brother. So God gave us the WAY to stop all the insanity Bob. Tell me brother why is it you don't go out and murder or molest children? Is it not because you know that these things are NOT part of Gods plan/way? If these are His plan should we not all be doing these horrible things? God forbid.

Yes, not even a sparrow can fall to the ground without the Father.  Likewise a child since a child is worth more than a sparrow.

So what does that mean?

Not even a child can fall into the hands of a pedophile without
a) God seeing it?
b) God seeing it an allowing it?
c) God seeing it and having planned it?

They are all the same Scott since God could have stopped it.

God gave us commandments to follow Bob and if man would OBEY them then these things would not be. He gave us the WAY from the very beginning but man left his first love and cleaved unto another.

On the other thread you believe we have our part to play in response to the Father, yet here you are saying it is all of God, so were then is OUR part?

God does see these awful things bro and He weeps and say Jerusalem,  Jerusalem I want to gather you under my wing but ye would not.

Yes, and what you are saying is that every atrocity in the world God allows or chooses not to stop.  No difference.

The difference are WORLDS apart bro, you say God planned it all, I say God never planned it, gave us commandments so they would not happen but MAN disobeyed and he along with satan are responsible for all these atrocities. Man by his union with satan became sons of satan not sons of God, for a son of God is obedient to the Father.

God has already shown throughout scripture that He is able to turn evil into good.  I trust that God can turn even these evil things (which truly do seem utterly pointless) into good.  Eternal torment is by definition God never turning that suffering into any good.  And lets not go over the top here, momentary suffering is nothing compared to eternal suffering.

Yes God weaves evil into good bro, so should that not tell us that evil is not of God? Is sin of God or the devil? Are God and the devil the same? Are sons of God the same as sons of satan?

The eternal torment equation was to show how horrible your view of God is to me brother.

You think I am going over the top with eternal and momentary suffering? Let me ask you this then, the next time a child is molested try telling that child and his / her parents that there is nothing to worry about God planned for your child to be molested, this had to happen so your child could be made in God's image and likeness.

Does that sound even remotely like the GOOD NEWS?

If you really believe in your heart these things are true brother, then should you not be trying to comfort these victims with those type of words? For if it is really a part of Gods plan for salvation then is it not also the gospel?

Except God is the one who gave Paul the thorn in the flesh.  Had God ONLY weaved that evil into good then God would not have said He GAVE Paul a messenger of Satan.

Satan is evil personified and God was weaving evil for good. Evil is in this world not of God but God weaves the things of this world to His own purposes.

My question for you Scott is this:

How is God not stopping these atrocities when he can stop them somehow better or different or less planned than what you've described above?

God already gave the WAY of stopping these things bro and that WAY is summed up in ONE word

OBEDIENCE

If man had of been obedient none of these things would have come nigh his dwelling place, and if man is obedient then all these things will disappear.

God bless

Scott,

God knows the end from the beginning.  Anyone that sins - God knew they would in advance.  If God is all powerful then there is nothing beyond His power.  So if God has a plan then that plan cannot fail to be carried out to perfection since God is all powerful.  So sin and the practice thereof was part of God's plan from the beginning.  So, this means that God knew their would be sins such as murder and child molestation and more.  That means that God had those sins in His plan.  This doesn't mean that God's nature practices those things.  So let's separate what God's nature is and what He has planned.  So because someone believes it is of God's plan that sins happens doesn't mean it is God's nature.  For the sin that we performed has a place in understanding Good.  How would we know light if there was never darkness.  How would we know Goodness if there was never evil.  Don't be discouraged to understand this as if it is tainted with a defamation of God's character for that is not the case.  God in all this is still 100 percent Good.  Be patient in this understanding and look from this perspective a bit and I'm confident you too will identify with it.

Paul

[CHB]

If man had of been obedient none of these things would have come nigh his dwelling place, and if man is obedient then all these things will disappear.

Hi Pneuma,

God created man in sinful flesh, put him in the garden and put a serpent and the tree of good and evil in there. If it wasn't God's intention for man to sin why did God do these things? We were created in sinful flesh that was weak, profiteth nothing,  created in infirmity. God didn't ask our opinion on any of this. it says we cannot please God in the flesh. Man was created with a deceitful heart. Now with all these things against man how could he not have sinned?  it seems it was all in the plan of God.

Some say that Satan caused all these things and he does but Satan, whatever he may be is powerless without God's approval. I don't believe God tempts man, he gave that job to satan. He handles evil indirectly not directly, that is why we can't see that it is from God. If all things were created by God, visible and invisible and all things consist by him how could all of this not be God's doing? God fixed it so all of these things would be exactly the way they are. Yes, He weaves it all but he also planned it all too.

CHB

[pneuma]

hi Scott,

I appreciate your view, and willingness to share.  Gives me some things to think about. 

Where do you see "forgive them for they know not what they do" come in versus "not being deceived". 

Adam was not deceived.  I think that is key.  He walked with God, he was mature, and knew Love, but chose to disobey

Eve on the other hand, disobeyed from a place of being deceived.  She was imo deceived; not having knowledge of love.

Hi Zeek, there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death, Eve being deceived was not a sin unto death, Adam's open disobedience is a sin unto death. That's why death did not enter the picture until Adam disobeyed.

Do you see Adam and Eve and "in all of us, two separate components of our mind?" or as two separate individuals in the world today??  or what do you see??

We are both Adam and Eve, they are joined into this one flesh, the eve/soul in us can be deceived the Adam/spirit is not deceived but walks in open disobedience. He is the spirit that is "instead of" (anti) Christ, the old man in each of us.

[pneuma]

God knows the end from the beginning.  Anyone that sins - God knew they would in advance.  If God is all powerful then there is nothing beyond His power.  So if God has a plan then that plan cannot fail to be carried out to perfection since God is all powerful.

Hi Paul

Yes God knows the end from the beginning, and yes He is all powerful, but God gave man the FREEDOM to make a choice between life and death.

In other words, God gave man the choice of which path or journey, man would take, the path of life or the path of death. Just because God knew man would sin does not mean He planned for man to sin.

Is the father of the prodigal son to blame for all that his son went through just because he gave his son his inheritance?

Hardly, Yet that is exactly what you are saying of God. God gave man an inheritance, man spent it unwisely and you are blaming God for what man did with his inheritance instead of blaming man himself.

So sin and the practice thereof was part of God's plan from the beginning.

Then so too is the molestation of children part of Gods plan, does not the spirit within you withdraw from such a thought? God might have just as well held the child down if He planned it all along.

So, this means that God knew their would be sins such as murder and child molestation and more.  That means that God had those sins in His plan.  This doesn't mean that God's nature practices those things.

God does not plan anything outside of His nature, if I plan murder than carry out that murder, it comes from what is in my nature.

Your making a good tree bring forth evil fruit.

A mob boss contracting out a hit is just as much a murderer as the one who performed the hit.

So let's separate what God's nature is and what He has planned.

You cannot separate them because what one plans comes from within one's mind. Therefore, you are saying God is a murder and molester of children.

So because someone believes it is of God's plan that sins happens doesn't mean it is God's nature.  For the sin that we performed has a place in understanding Good.

Did Jesus sin? Did He understand good?

So how can you say sin is required to understand good?

How would we know light if there was never darkness?  How would we know Goodness if there was never evil? 

How did Christ know light before there was darkness? How did Christ know good before there was evil?

Don't be discouraged to understand this as if it is tainted with a defamation of God's character for that is not the case.  God in all this is still 100 percent Good.  Be patient in this understanding and look from this perspective a bit and I'm confident you too will identify with it.

I have walked in your perspective Paul and blamed God for all the crap that has happened in my life, and it was not until He told me to grow up and take responsibility for my own choices that I gained a measure of peace.

Did you know that a child molester when caught never blames himself for his molesting of the child, that he blames the child instead? That is the reason why it is so hard to rehabilitate one; they blame everything and everyone else for their sin.

Kind of like people blaming God for their actions.

[pneuma]

God created man in sinful flesh , put him in the garden and put a serpent and the tree of good and evil in there.

Hi sis, no God created man from the dust of the earth, it was not until mans disobedience that he was given the skin/flesh of animals.

And God never put the serpent there, the serpent was FREE to go to and fro throughout the earth.

If it wasn't God's intention for man to sin why did God do these things? We were created in sinful flesh that was weak, profiteth nothing,  created in infirmity. God didn't ask our opinion on any of this. it says we cannot please God in the flesh. Man was created with a deceitful heart. Now with all these things against man how could he not have sinned?  it seems it was all in the plan of God.

God created man GOOD, the devil sowed all that other crap into man.

Some say that Satan caused all these things and he does but Satan, whatever he may be is powerless without God's approval. I don't believe God tempts man, he gave that job to satan. He handles evil indirectly not directly, that is why we can't see that it is from God.

So in effect, God is the mob boss who sends out the murderer to murder, that makes God just as much a murderer as the one He sent out to perform the task.

If all things were created by God, visible and invisible and all things consist by him how could all of this not be God's doing? God fixed it so all of these things would be exactly the way they are. Yes, He weaves it all but he also planned it all too.

God did NOT sow the tares sis, scripture testifies to that fact.

God created ALL things GOOD, but some of God's creation have corrupted THEMSELVES.

Deuteronomy 32:1-5

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. 2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.


Jude 10
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 

God did NOT plan for man to become corrupt, man corrupted themselves.

[bobf]

Hi Bob, this is all AFTER man was disobedient and brought death into the world, God uses these things to weave us back to His WAYS.

Yes, but Jesus statement about being the only Way to the Father was also AFTER man was disobedient.

So AFTER man was disobedient God had multple intended roads
(1) His ONLY road to the Father through Jesus Christ
(2) Other roads to lead people to road (1)

So Jesus being the only Way to the Father does not preclude the existence of roads leading to that way.

Then I don't know how you can believe it bro.

It doesn't seem just to my mind that God smacked righteous Job around either.  Should I not believe that?
It doesn't seem just to my mind that God willed the innocent Jesus Christ to submit to cruel murder.  Should I not believe that?

I trust God has good reasons and will make good.

Besides that, as I stated in my previous post and again below, your view offers no better "way out" for God regarding the existence of evil.

If His WILL was being done on earth as it is in HEAVEN then these things would be stopped Bob. Man made his bed in hell through disobedience and God keeps telling man to repent and OBEY His voice and none of these things will come nigh our dwelling place.

The innocent child did not make his bed in hell even if the pedophile did.  So again I ask: Why does God not stop the pedophile from harming the innocent child?

ALL His ways are LIFE brother. So God gave us the WAY to stop all the insanity Bob. Tell me brother why is it you don't go out and murder or molest children? Is it not because you know that these things are NOT part of Gods plan/way? If these are His plan should we not all be doing these horrible things? God forbid.

What way did God give the innocent child to escape from the pedophile?

God already gave the WAY of stopping these things bro and that WAY is summed up in ONE word

OBEDIENCE

The innocent child did not disobey.  Again, what way did God give the innocent child to escape?

The difference are WORLDS apart bro, you say God planned it all, I say God never planned it, gave us commandments so they would not happen but MAN disobeyed and he along with satan are responsible for all these atrocities. Man by his union with satan became sons of satan not sons of God, for a son of God is obedient to the Father.

You say God did not plan it, yet you have not explained why God did not STOP it.  It is hand-waving to pretend that not stopping it is not a plan.  You need to give the reason God does not stop it given that the world now contains evil and an innocent child is about to be subjected to that evil.

On the other thread you believe we have our part to play in response to the Father, yet here you are saying it is all of God, so were then is OUR part?

I did not say "it is all of God".  I say God intended it.  When pharoah disobeyed God, God intended it, but it was not "all of God".  Though God hardened pharoah's heart, pharoah also hardened his own heart, and made his own choices.  So it was "of pharhoah" too.  This is easy to understand if you just consider your own choices.  You make all your choices, but your choices are influenced by others.  Your heart can be hardened or softened by what others say and do.  I believe God will ultimately soften everyones heart, in effect giving them a new heart.  That does not remove anyone from having to make choices and follow the path God requires them to follow.

Yes God weaves evil into good bro, so should that not tell us that evil is not of God? Is sin of God or the devil?

The phrase "of God" is loaded.  It makes it sound like God condones sin but He does not even when He intends it.  God intended a messenger of Satan to be a thron in Paul's side but God did not condone what Satan was doing because Satan's intentions were evil.

Are God and the devil the same? Are sons of God the same as sons of satan?

No.  For example, God was not the same as Satan when God sent Satan to smite Job.  God's intention was good in His use of evil, Satan's intention is evil.  Evil proceeded from Satan's heart, no evil proceeded from God's heart towards Job, only good.  Satan's sin came from Satan's heart, not Gods.

Likewise when God bruised Jesus.  God's intended good, the men who carried it out intended evil.

The eternal torment equation was to show how horrible your view of God is to me brother.

Was God evil when He willed that Jesus Christ submit Himself to be tortured and murdered?  Why not?  How does requiring an innocent man to be murdered not APPEAR TO BE similarly horrible?  Because we SEE the REASON.  That's why.  Just because I can not see God's reason for letting an innocent child suffer does not mean that there isn't one.

Satan is evil personified and God was weaving evil for good. Evil is in this world not of God but God weaves the things of this world to His own purposes.

Still does not explain why God GAVE Paul into Satan's hand so Satan could work his evil-personified against Paul.

You think I am going over the top with eternal and momentary suffering? Let me ask you this then, the next time a child is molested try telling that child and his / her parents that there is nothing to worry about God planned for your child to be molested, this had to happen so your child could be made in God's image and likeness.

Does that sound even remotely like the GOOD NEWS?

If you really believe in your heart these things are true brother, then should you not be trying to comfort these victims with those type of words? For if it is really a part of Gods plan for salvation then is it not also the gospel?

What are the alternatives Scott with which to comfort them:
"God was watching but could not stop it"
"God was watching but did not stop it because of <fill in the blank>"

For me <fill in the blank> is that God has a good reason and will make it right as He did with Job.
I'm still waiting for your <fill in the blank> as to why God does not save the innocent child.

From my vantage point my question is still outstanding.  Saying that God did not intend for pedophiles to exist is no explanation for why God does not save the innocent child GIVEN that a pedophile does exist and God sees the pedophile about to harm the child.


God bless,
Bob

[pneuma]

Yes, but Jesus statement about being the only Way to the Father was also AFTER man was disobedient.

But what was His WAY Bob? Obedience.
Adam had the SAME choice.

So AFTER man was disobedient God had multple intended roads
(1) His ONLY road to the Father through Jesus Christ
(2) Other roads to lead people to road (1)

Well glad to see you put this down to AFTER man was disobedient Bob, which shows if you can see it that disobedience was not a part of God plan. But AFTER mans disobedience God responded to the clay, weaving man under the law back to Christ. There is only ONE WAY/PLAN and that is CHRIST and God weaves everything back to Him.

It doesn't seem just to my mind that God smacked righteous Job around either.  Should I not believe that?
It doesn't seem just to my mind that God willed the innocent Jesus Christ to submit to cruel murder.  Should I not believe that?

I am not saying don't believe those things Bob I am trying to get you to look at them from a different perspective, that perspective through what Christ revealed of the Father, not the perspective of the Father revealed through Adam.


Again and again Bob I have said I cannot explain it all to you, I can only give the light given to me. So if we see something written in scripture that shows the Father in a different light then the Father Jesus revealed we are still seeing the Father through the vail or shadow and do not see Him clearly.

I trust God has good reasons and will make good.

Besides that, as I stated in my previous post and again below, your view offers no better "way out" for God regarding the existence of evil.

Yes it does Bob, but you are not hearing me.

The innocent child is not the one being disobedient.  So again I ask: Why does God not stop the pedophile from harming the innocent child?

Because this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.

What way did God give the innocent child to escape from the pedophile?

Do you not believe His promises that none of these things would come nigh our dwelling if we are obedient?

People put their children in harm's way all the time brother, but you are blaming God because of mans refusal to obey.

The innocent child did not disobey.  Again, what way did God give the innocent child to escape?

Through the obedience of their parents. Why do you blame God for the molestation of the child? Should you not rather be blaming satan and man?

You say God did not plan it, yet you have not explained why God did not STOP it.  It is hand-waving to pretend that not stopping it is not a plan.  You need to give the reason God does not stop it given that the world now contains evil and an innocent child is about to be subjected to that evil.

Yes I have explain that Bob, it's called FREEDOM to make a choice.

I did not say "it is all of God".  I say God intended it.  When pharoah disobeyed God, God intended it, but it was not "all of God".  Though God hardened pharoah's, pharoah also hardened his own heart, and made his own choices.  This is easy to understand if you just consider your own choices.  You make all your choices, but your choices are influenced by others.  Your heart can be hardened or softened by what others say and do.  I believe God will ultimately soften everyones heart, in effect giving them a new heart.  That does not remove anyone from having to make choices and follow the path God requires them to follow.

That's what I call weaving along the path. But a FREE choice is a choice made and it does not matter what outside or inside influences bombard us, we still make a FREE choice.

The phrase "of God" is loaded.  It makes it sound like God condones sin but He does not even when He intends it.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

It is not just the act of adultery that is sin but also the INTENT behind the act.

Therefore, if God INTENDED sin it is the same as the act of it.

No.  For example, God was not the same as Satan when God sent Satan to smite Job.  God's intention was good in His use of evil, Satan's intention is evil.  Evil proceeded from Satan's heart, no evil proceeded from God's heart towards Job, only good.  Satan's sin came from Satan's heart, not Gods.

Likewise when God bruised Jesus.  God's intended good, the men who carried it out intended evil.

And that is Gods weaving of EVIL. I don't know how to make that any more clear to you brother. Evil is present in this world brother and God weaves good out of that evil.

Was God evil when He willed that Jesus Christ submit Himself to be tortured and murdered?  Why not?  How does requiring an innocent man to be murdered not APPEAR TO BE similarly horrible?  Because we SEE the REASON.  That's why.  Just because I can not see God's reason for letting an innocent child suffer does not mean that there isn't one.

Jesus made His own choice here brother He did not have to die on the cross, the choice was HIS. But remember this all came about AFTER sin and death entered into the world and God through Christ weaved sin and death into the good for all mankind.

The molestation of a child is NOT for the good of anyone least of all the child and that should tell us that it is not a part of Gods plan.

Still does not explain why God GAVE Paul into Satan's hand so Satan could work his evil-personified against Paul.

Weaving the things of this world does answer that question Bob.

What are the alternatives Scott with which to comfort them:
"God was watching but could not stop it"
"God was watching but did not stop it because of <fill in the blank>"

For me <fill in the blank> is that God has a good reason and will make it right as He did with Job.
I'm still waiting for your <fill in the blank> as to why God does not save the innocent child.
From my vantage point my question is still outstanding.  Saying that God did not intend for pedophiles to exist is no explanation for why God does not save the innocent child GIVEN that he does exist.

I already gave you the answers brother, but you are not HEARING me and I don't know how else to explain it.




God bless

[bobf]

I already gave you the answers brother, but you are not HEARING me and I don't know how else to explain it.

No Scott, you gave a reason as to why you believe there is evil in the world.

But that was not the question.  The question was not why are there pedophiles in the world.  The question was why doesn't God stop the pedophile from carrying out his intention.  Why doesn't God spare the child from the disobedience of the pedophile or the child's partents.  Does that sound just to you that the child should suffer for the disobedience of others?

Disobedience does not answer that question because God could easily and justly save the child in spite of that disobedience.

Now you have added "freedom" which at least is some kind of answer to the question.  God does not save the child because of freedom.  Whose freedom?  Certainly not the child's.  I guess that leaves the freedom of the pedophiile?  So God honors the freedom of the pedophile to commit the act but not the freedom of the child to escape it?

If the answer is "freedom" then that implies that God values something (freedom) more than He values the child's well being.  So God has what you think is a good reason (freedom) for choosing to not intercede on the childs behalf.  So you have subsituted your good reason (freedom) for my good reason (I don't claim to know God's good reason, I just trust that He has one).  But "freedom" is clearly not the answer since God has many times interceded against the freedom of man's choices.  God did not honor Jonah's freedom to not testify to Nineveh.  God did not honor the freedom of those who put the disciples in prison to shut them up in the book of Acts, but sent an angel to save them.  God binds Satan in the book of Revelation against his freedom.

So why does God choose not to deliver the child from the sins of others?

I'm asking about God's choice not man's choice.

[bobf]

So AFTER man was disobedient God had multple intended roads
(1) His ONLY road to the Father through Jesus Christ
(2) Other roads to lead people to road (1)

Well glad to see you put this down to AFTER man was disobedient Bob, which shows if you can see it that disobedience was not a part of God plan. But AFTER mans disobedience God responded to the clay, weaving man under the law back to Christ. There is only ONE WAY/PLAN and that is CHRIST and God weaves everything back to Him.

I only put it "after" because
1. If God intended man to be under the Law before & after man sinned then God certainly intended it after man sinned.
2. It makes no difference to my argument if God only intended man to be under the Law only after man sinned.
3. I might as well start from a point you agree with rather than from a point you disagree with.

So "after" man sinned God intended:
1. Man to be under the Law to lead him to Christ
2. Man to follow Christ, which is the way back to the Father

Therefore not every plan God makes or intends is a synonym for the Way because being under the Law precedes faith and precedes being married to Christ.

[reFORMer]

I have two hands and am only speaking of something, "On the one hand" in the following.  That's because on the other hand God has an incalcuable amount of minutae He takes care of in this universe.  It is just that because God knows He has an infinity of time ahead and that He can and will do such things as raise the dead His perspective is different than ours.  Our values are formed as ignorant, short lived, relatively powerless and very limited beings.  It is over for us so quickly, that is, our life in Adamic flesh.  We put values on things, like the sins you all have mentioned, that are viewed differently by God.  One of the things like this I've considered is the family that lets their lives be ruined, and they really do, over the abduction and/or murder of a child.  Certainly we should mourn; but, for those who know more of the truth from God, we are not to mourn as the nations that have no hope.  We are supposed to be gaining a Divine perspective on reality.

[bobf]

It is not just the act of adultery that is sin but also the INTENT behind the act.

I agree.

Therefore, if God INTENDED sin it is the same as the act of it.

If God ever intended TO SIN it would be the same as the act of it.  But God never intends to sin, only to bless in the end with a double portion.

[CHB]

 Below is a paragraph taken from the article, "The Purpose of Evil". I think this pretty much sums it up. I don't see how any one can dispute this statement?

CHB


                            The Purpose of Evil

for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it [was He] who made him a free moral agent; if God made man a free moral agent He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent, as he would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that he had made; man's free moral agency, even if it were true, (which it is not, see 1-1-10) would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts, since God is his creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be.

[sheila]

   May I add that Our Father has a no child left behind policy

 in effect, and while the death of His saints are precious in His

eyes, and He is with them in their sufferings; He himself is

 deaths plague. The fiery jealousy of HIS LOVE IS STRONGER

  THAN DEATH.

  He WILL RECOMPENSE ABUNDANTLY ALL THAT HAVE

  SUFFERED,FOR WHATEVER THEY HAVE SUFFERED

 DURING THIS TRIALSOME TIME OF SUFFERING EVIL

  He did not say that those that seek Him,seek Him in vain

 WE MUST KNOW AND BELIVE THAT HE IS THE REWARDER


  Anything that we may suffer..is nothing compared to the

  Glory that is to be revealed

     My sister Rose had heard on the news about a little girl

that was abducted and molested and murdered. She was so

greived and troubled by it. She went to the Father with it..

  He told her, it's alright she's with me,she's fine..she doesn't

 even have a memory of it.


  Some of us  are going to have to forgive our Father for

 undergoing this evil.Elijah came to turn the hearts of the

children unto the fathers and the hearts of the fathers unto the

 children.  Some of the little children have been very

traumatized by the expierences of this world/life.

   Father can  practice  tough love at times.Rebellious children

may continue in their course until they reap a harvest of death

  If nothing else,maybe a real hatred for evil will develope.


  Because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of many

will wax cold[how could He allow this?][how many times do

I have to forgive those who sin against me?]

   Remember you can not live by an eye for an eye...

   you live by grace and have been long-suffered by God,too.

 Remember,satan's time is short and the works of the devil

  [evil] are to be broke up.


   It is your nature to be repulsed by such great evil..and if

  against your divine nature,all the more against His.

   At harvest time evil reaps it's just reward

[peacemaker]

Accountable and/or Responsible?

"Two sides of the same coin."

There is a subtle distinction in meaning, as you are liable for the damage(s) caused by your own actions.
And no man can argue that he is answerable to God?

Man is accountable in that he will have debt owed when he has sin.
God is responsible in that God is the one that allows debt to exist and be accumulated for the very purpose and desire to remove it.

"To put the problems of sin on God's doorstep or an outside entity is to evade the issue and absolve the human race of any responsibility."

Are you waiting for the last, great assize?

peacemaker

[jabcat]

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it,in hope

that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:20,21

Taken from:  http://tgulcm.tripod.com/? a UR fellowship
The fact is that few in all the ages have as yet profited by their experience with evil. Rather, many have been turned to unbelief by it. And if we were to base our conclusions on man's limited abilities and his restricted viewpoint, there would be no satisfactory answer as to why God permits evil. In the limited viewpoint of many, death is the end of existence; to others it is the end of all opportunity to learn and profit from past experiences. But such viewpoints are not supported in the Bible.
According to the Bible, those who are asleep in death will be awakened from that sleep and given an opportunity to profit from the experiences of the present life. It often happens now that the difficulties and distresses of a certain day are understood and appreciated at a later time. So it will be, but on a grander scale, for those who are now sleeping in death. When they are awakened, they shall enter another term in their school of experience. When man arises after the present experience is over, the world of mankind will be able to testify to the wisdom of God in allowing the experience of suffering and death. When they are awakened from death, their faulty vision or understanding of God will be corrected. They will rejoice to learn of the gracious and loving provision the Creator has made for them through Christ the Redeemer to ransom them from death. And they will come to perfection of life, when in the light of this true knowledge of God they obey Him by conforming their lives to His standards of right and wrong.

Joy in the Morning
The Psalmist wrote, "Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning" (Psa. 30:5).

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.  Romans 18 -- End Quote

God's blessing, James.

[sheila]

  well, God  said of the creation of Adam..that it was Very good

  but something can be very good and not perfect...

  Now we know that we are made perfect when we learn

  obediance through suffering. And so there we have it.

   The perfect will of our Father.

   Therefore a goodly vessel was marred in the potters

  hand..but He made of the same 'lump' A perfect vessel

  of honor[the Word of God come in flesh]

   Therefore we must praise the work of HIS HANDS

  living water added and the fire of His Holy spirit can go a long

   way toward strengthening these clay vessels and they

   will be made anew 'firm' and perfect under His deft fingers

   Honorable vessels are just that..they Honor God and Jesus

   Christ.

     Now Jesus spoke of the spirit being willing and also

    of the weakness of the flesh[it's corruptible nature and

  proneness of falling] But that did not stop the husbandman

   from honouring mankind[those who dwell in clay vessels] as

  the weaker vessel.1 Peter 3;7  2 Cor 12;9  But He said to me

  'My grace is sufficient for you,for my power is made perfect in

weakness" In what way is  God's power made perfect in

weakness? It is because the spirit of God will not fail in

it;s purpose....for He says..by MY SPIRIT...and also this

the flesh profiteth nothing. What is more important, the gift

upon the altar...or the altar that sanctifieth the gift.

   What is He saying here? Nothing but this...the Holy spirit

sanctifieth[makes honorable] the vessel. It is not the vessel

that is honorable/it counts as nothing..it is weak in itself

but it is the spirit in it...that is honorable..and the vessel is

sanctified[clean and set apart for a noble purpose] by the

spirit that is in it.

   This,issue also,was expounded to Peter by the Holy spirit...

  in the vision he received of the sheet coming down three

times.He was told to quit calling unclean what God has

  cleansed. IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT SANCTIFIES A VESSELS

  FOR A HONARABLE USE[the Praising of God] The vessel is

honorable for this reason alone, because God uses it,not

because the vessel is Holy of itself..but because the Holy spirit

  is in it..in this way..the vessel is used to serve God's purposes

that alone sanctifies it..for it has been set aside for Holy use

and that is what sanctification is.

[Zeek]

I read these verses on another forum, and thought they were good.

James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

2 Peter 3:2-4
I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles. First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

Jude 1:14-17
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

Psalm 25:3
No one whose hope is in you will ever be put to shame, but they will be put to shame who are treacherous without excuse.

Lamentations 3:31-33
For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
For God does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.Why should any living man complain
when punished for his sins?
Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD.


Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I, God (Creator of all the Universe) did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I, God (Creator of everything from Beginning to End) did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I, God (the all-powerful, all-knowing and all seeing) never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

From these verses, it basically says it is possible to do something God never planned, or even entered His mind?


Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:16  In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deu 30:17  But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

Deu 30:18  I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deu 30:20  That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.



Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.


Mat 25:25  And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Mat 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strewed:

Mat 25:27  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Mat 25:28  Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Mat 25:29  For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Mat 25:30  And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


vs.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Co 5:5  To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Sheila, that's one of the best posts I have ever read; a lot of meat in simplicity. :thumbsup:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:

[pneuma]

No Scott, you gave a reason as to why you believe there is evil in the world.

But that was not the question.  The question was not why are there pedophiles in the world.  The question was why doesn't God stop the pedophile from carrying out his intention.

Bob I have answered that question two or three times now, here it is again.

Because this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.

Why doesn't God spare the child from the disobedience of the pedophile or the child's partents.  Does that sound just to you that the child should suffer for the disobedience of others?

The whole world lieth in wickedness brother, there is NOTHING just in that which should tell us that it is NOT of God plan.

Disobedience does not answer that question because God could easily and justly save the child in spite of that disobedience.

Then why did He not save Adam from death when Adam disobeyed?

God put laws in place, MAN broke those laws, brought sin and death into the world, and the whole world suffers because of mans disobedience.

The whole world does NOT suffer because God planned it that way, they suffer because of disobedience.

Now you have added "freedom" which at least is some kind of answer to the question.  God does not save the child because of freedom.  Whose freedom?  Certainly not the child's.  I guess that leaves the freedom of the pedophiile?  So God honors the freedom of the pedophile to commit the act but not the freedom of the child to escape it?
If the answer is "freedom" then that implies that God values something (freedom) more than He values the child's well being.  So God has what you think is a good reason (freedom) for choosing to not intercede on the childs behalf.  So you have subsituted your good reason (freedom) for my good reason (I don't claim to know God's good reason, I just trust that He has one).  But "freedom" is clearly not the answer since God has many times interceded against the freedom of man's choices.  God did not honor Jonah's freedom to not testify to Nineveh.  God did not honor the freedom of those who put the disciples in prison to shut them up in the book of Acts, but sent an angel to save them.  God binds Satan in the book of Revelation against his freedom.

The freedom was there BEFORE the commandment was broken, after it was broken man became a SLAVE unto sin and death. The pedophile and murder are of the EVIL ONE not of God. It is NOT Gods doing it is the EVIL ONES doing.

So why does God choose not to deliver the child from the sins of others?

Because this world is NOT yet His world, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. The whole world right now lieth in wickedness. His WILL is not YET being done on earth.

I'm asking about God's choice not man's choice.

God upholds His laws brother, He warned and said if you eat you will die, man ate, man died. If God never let man die as He forewarned Gods word would not be any good, and God would have been a liar and the serpent would have held the truth.

Zeek pointed out (thanks Zeek) some scriptures that give answer to these question bro, here is one such that gives answer to the child in the hands of the pedophile.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I, God (Creator of everything from Beginning to End) did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Because of mans disobedience man has sent their sons and daughters into the fire, and this is something God did NOT command nor did it even ENTER INTO HIS MIND.

These things are not of God brother, but rather they are of the EVIL ONE.

[pneuma]

Below is a paragraph taken from the article, "The Purpose of Evil". I think this pretty much sums it up. I don't see how any one can dispute this statement?

CHB


                            The Purpose of Evil

for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it [was He] who made him a free moral agent; if God made man a free moral agent He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent, as he would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that he had made; man's free moral agency, even if it were true, (which it is not, see 1-1-10) would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts, since God is his creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be.

I agree with that in part sis, God takes the responsibility because He gave man the FREEDOM of choice, but He is NOT responsible for the choice MAN MADE. If He was then the father of the prodigal is responsible for all the choice his son made for giving him his inheritance. If these things are all a part of His plan sis then what is it we have to repent of?

[pneuma]

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it,in hope

When did this take place Jab? This did not happen before man was disobedience and ate but afterwards.

To use another of Zeeks scriptures.

Lamentations 3:31-33
For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
For God does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.Why should any living man complain
when punished for his sins?
Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD.

[pneuma]

From these verses, it basically says it is possible to do something God never planned, or even entered His mind?

Exactly Zeek, God never planned these things, He put laws into place so these things would not happen if man would but obey.
All the crap in this world came into place because of MANS disobedience not because God planned all the crap in the world.

[pneuma]

Match these scriptures up with what I have been saying and what some of you have been saying, and then ask yourselves which understanding of God who is LOVE/CHARITY follows after CHARITY.

1 Corinthians 13:4-6
4 Charity suffereth long,
Charity  is kind;
Charity envieth not
Charity vaunteth not itself
Charity is not puffed up
Charity Doth not behave itself unseemly
Charity seeketh not her own
Charity is not easily provoked
Charity thinketh no evil
Charity Rejoiceth not in iniquity
Charity rejoiceth in the truth

So how can a God who is love and thinketh NO evil, also be a God who planned out all the evil in this world? For a plan only comes by way of thinking.