I am starting this topic on the Law to discuss what it is. What was abolished and how does it apply to our Christian lives and more. This is a complex subject and I hope we have patience with each other and ask God to help us in understanding this topic.
First I want to say that the Law was ordained unto Life. What are your thought about that?
Here is the verse:
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Paul
Mayby I am a bit Simple minded..... but I get the feeling that the Law being ordained unto life, could mean that as long as you are a Flesh and blood human being, that every single ordinance of the Law applies to you.
That the Law must not be watered down or candy coated, that the fullness of the Law must be upheld and applies to you at all times....otherwise how else are you going to see that you are hoplessly condemed to death by it.
That you will never be justified by the works of the Law, because you are already in breach of some part of it, and therfore Guilty of all....because no part of the Law has been abolished, every ordinance still stands to this day.
Jesus is our only hope....not the Law...the purpose of the Law is to bring all to the realisation that they are hoplessly condemned to death by it.....only then will they turn to Jesus, who is now their only hope.
Peace
To me the law is just there because people don't yet know what love is and what it means TO LOVE.
Example:
LAW: If you are married, do not sleep with other men.
ME: I love my husband and would lay down my life for him, I love him THAT much. Of COURSE I don't need some law telling me not to sleep with other men! The thought would never even enter into my mind.
The law does not apply to me, in that, LOVE has already kicked that law to the curb. It is not needed.
I do not need a law that tells me to do something dishonorable to the one that I love.
A lot of people get really zoned in on sin. They turn sin into a god. It's true. The law becomes some sort of god to them. How foolish.
What did Jesus come here for in the first place?
To show us the way.
LOVE.
The more you love, the less NEED you have for law....
The law is here to help us see our NEED to LEARN about LOVE.
The more you love, TRULY UNSELFISHLY LOVE, the less you need someone telling you what TO DO and what NOT TO DO... it will be written on your heart.
I don't see why it has to be any more complicated than that.
But that's just me.
I know I'm still the girl on the outside peering in...
I don't know the language.
and that's ok.
I'm ok with that.
peace.
Good topic Paul, and :goodpost: SpiritDriven and Sparrow..."For when Gentiles (nations) [not the Jews] who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts.... Romans 2:14,15.
Here is a major problem with the law under the Old Covenant (to be distinguished from the Law itself):
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
The Israelites under the Old Covenant would have to bring sacrifices to offer for their sins. So their conscience couldn't be perfect because all they didn't escape from sin - in fact it kept them in sin. The reason is that they could just go and perform the same sinful act again and then make an offering again to become clean again. This would become an endless cycle. Now consider that if they performed the sinful act that they have now got a debt to pay in the from of the sacrifice. The sacrifice they offer is their payment for that debt. So as you can see this is why their conscience couldn't be made perfect.
Paul
My :2c:
The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.
When people look at the law they look at it in letter and that is why sin takes a hold and does what it does. But the law is spiritual and always has been, but people don't realise this, they only see the letter. And this is where many make their mistake, seeing in letter that which is spiritual. The law is not done away with only our understanding of the letter of the law is done away with, when we walk in the spirit we understand spiritual things, thus we now fulfill the spiritual law.
The commandment to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength is as spiritual today as it was when God first proclaimed it way back when.
We have all read how the stone was rejected, and the stone of course is Christ and many today still reject the stone wherein we find the DABAR/LOGOS of God.
If the words that are written in stone are rejected and of no further use why do so many then fulfill them when walking in the spirit?
It because they are SPIRITUAL and only those who walk in the spirit understand them.
The law is our school master to lead us to Christ, now what do the scriptures tell us about who leads us to Christ? Is it not the Holy Spirit? Is it not God?
No one can come unto Jesus unless the Father draws them.
What! is there another way one is drawn to Christ then by the Father?
So for many it would seem, for they believe the law is a letter and by that letter we are drawn to Christ and then the letter is of no further use.
But what I see is that the law is SPIRITUAL and the very LOGOS of God.
Thus the death and the drawing are all of GOD and not by any letter.
And it is NOT until people realise that the law is SPIRITUAL and not of the letter will they continue to believe that which is SPIRITUAL is destroyed.
We are not under the law as a tutor anymore because the law/LOGOS has become a part of who we are.
God bless
Quote from: pneuma on March 07, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
My :2c:
The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.
....
Pneuma, I would say it is the opposite. I would say it is the Spirit of the Law that works Life but that the letter is what works death. I will expound on that in my next post.
Paul
An Analogy of the Spirit vs Letter of the Law.
I want you to consider the Speed Limit.
The Spirit of the Speed Limit Law is this:
Reduce injury and death on the highways.
The Letter of the Speed Limit Law is this:
Obey established speed limits.
See the Spirit is what establishes the Letter - it is like the reason or intent behind the letter. The letter becomes a shadow of it.
Now, lets see show why the letter can work error.
Consider your driving down the highway and a wheel has come loose from a truck. That wheel is hurling towards you and unless you speed up and break the "established speed limit" (letter) then you are going to risk injury or death. So you speed up and break the limit. You are pulled over by the Police for breaking the established speed limit (letter). This Police offer is acting as a Pharisee in this analogy. He is giving a ticket for the breaking of the letter of the Law. But what you have really done was to comply with the Spirit of the Law. You have reduced injury and death on the highway. You were complying with the intent of that part of the Law.
You see the letter was helping us to understand the Spirit but when the Letter BECOMES the Law in our lives then we have errored.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on March 07, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 07, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
My :2c:
The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.
....
Pneuma, I would say it is the opposite. I would say it is the Spirit of the Law that works Life but that the letter is what works death. I will expound on that in my next post.
Paul
Paul that depends on what death you are refering to, the letter brings death to the spirit, the spiritual law brings death to the old man, tis the second death brother, that is why it says the law is ordained onto life yet is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.
Quote from: pneuma on March 07, 2009, 05:27:46 PMPaul that depends on what death you are refering to, the letter brings death to the spirit, the spiritual law brings death to the old man, tis the second death brother, that is why it says the law is ordained onto life yet is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.
Ok, pneuma, I understand you more clearly now. I was concerned about the perception that the Spirit might be looked at as bringing death. But I understand you as saying that the Spirit brings about the death of the Old man and I agree with that - which is actually life.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on March 07, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 07, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
My :2c:
The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.
....
Pneuma, I would say it is the opposite. I would say it is the Spirit of the Law that works Life but that the letter is what works death. I will expound on that in my next post.
Paul
Actually Tis The Law of the Spirit which worketh Life , the Letter kills ,not wishing to split hairs but theres no such text as The Spirit of the LAW.
The Law is Spiritual , HE THAT worketh Life Is the LAW OF THE SPIRIT( CHRIST) which is Christ in Us and US in Him , :icon_flower:
Seven is number of Completion= ONE , these are the LAWS HE writes in our Hearts.....=HIM,The magnification of LAW in out Hearts :icon_flower:
Law of Faith=Him :cloud9:
Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Law of Rightouesness=Him :cloud9:
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the
law of righteousness. Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the
works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone
Law of God of the heart\mind Heb 10;16= Him :cloud9:
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the
inward man: Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the
flesh the law of sin Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not
subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Law of Liberty= Him :cloud9:
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty
Law of Christ= Him :cloud9:
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Law of The Spirit\Life= Him :cloud9:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death
:icon_flower:
:banana: :banana: :trampoline: :banana: :banana:
To bad we don't have a smiley doing backflips!
Quote from: Taffy on March 07, 2009, 05:55:08 PM
Law of The Spirit\Life= Him :cloud9:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death
:icon_flower:
AMEN. I BELIEVE. ALL GLORY TO HIM
Joh 11:26 And whosoever
liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
YES
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: trettep on March 07, 2009, 05:04:44 AM
I am starting this topic on the Law to discuss what it is. What was abolished and how does it apply to our Christian lives and more. This is a complex subject and I hope we have patience with each other and ask God to help us in understanding this topic.
First I want to say that the Law was ordained unto Life. What are your thought about that?
Here is the verse:
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Paul
Ya gotta go a little further:
Rom 8:6-8 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, (7) because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
Get stacked the deck against Israel. He made a two way covenant with them: They promise to keep ALL the law and they will live. They fail to keep ALL the law, they die by receiving all the curses of the law.
But God didn't come out and tell them they could not keep the law because they were made (by God) as flesh and flesh can't keep the law.
The law came in by the way so that sin would be increasing (Romans 5:20) and the law was given to escort them to Christ (Gal.3:24).
We are not under law but under Grace (Rom.6:14).
QuoteActually Tis The Law of the Spirit which worketh Life , the Letter kills ,not wishing to split hairs but theres no such text as The Spirit of the LAW.
Hi bro I agree no scripture says spirit of the law, I use that term for explianation purposes for if I just said law people would not understand which side of the law I am refering to.
Quote from: pneuma on March 07, 2009, 06:11:29 PM
QuoteActually Tis The Law of the Spirit which worketh Life , the Letter kills ,not wishing to split hairs but theres no such text as The Spirit of the LAW.
Hi bro I agree no scripture says spirit of the law, I use that term for explianation purposes for if I just said law people would not understand which side of the law I am refering to.
:thumbsup:
Thanks for opening the window of oppotunity to post Scott, As one who was STUCK in the Old, took me yrs Until he opened My eyes the understanding of he New C, I learnt the HARD way...it still kinda sticks im me ribs some :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Be sure to read my analogy on the Speed limit. Read it over and over until you understand it. It will make sense to you why Jesus did keep the law while the Pharisees seen Him as breaking the law.
Paul
Jesus was all about breaking their image of the law . . .and in doing so, he fulfilled the law at the same time.
The woman with an issue of blood . .she broke the law as well . .. she wasn't even supposed to be there . . . people with infirmities were to be outside the gates of the city and definitely not touching another person . .but there comes a time when we need to ignore what men say law is as we become desparte for a touch of the Truth in our lives.
woman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.
Quotewoman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.
Good stuff bro, :thumbsup: thanks
Quote from: Nathan on March 07, 2009, 06:38:41 PM
woman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.
:cloud9: Amen Nathan......a menstrous woman is also a Hebraism for idolatry. Thus another thing God did to show Israel, who was a menstrous woman by that time, "herself". Blessings....
Quote from: Nathan on March 07, 2009, 06:38:41 PM
Jesus was all about breaking their image of the law . . .and in doing so, he fulfilled the law at the same time.
The woman with an issue of blood . .she broke the law as well . .. she wasn't even supposed to be there . . . people with infirmities were to be outside the gates of the city and definitely not touching another person . .but there comes a time when we need to ignore what men say law is as we become desparte for a touch of the Truth in our lives.
woman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.
Like That Nat :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
It was "ordained" unto LIFE all along, not unto "sacrifices" of
bulls and goats. But man eating from the tree of knowledge
of good and evil, got a few things mixed up. Then we had to
go all around all this mess to find our way back! To understand
why Paul called it HOLY! The "killing" part was ADDED. It was
"ordained" to LIFE, but then God said "I kill and I make ALIVE."
When Paul saw the Truth, he even called the killing part, HOLY.
That is why it says in Psa. 50 "Call my people together, those
that have made a "covenant" with me by "sacrifice" .......a few
verses down, God says "Will I drink the blood of bulls and goats.?"
"I will not reprove you for these sacrifices, but ......we have to
learn OBEDIENCE is better than "sacrifice and offering". And
"why" Job was called Perfect and Upright even "before" his trials.
God was seeing the Second Man in him all along, but Jop being
born subject to vanity, wasn't.
God says He will "break" our "covenant" mentioned there in Psa.
50. It is a covenant of death. Not unto LIFE! Jesus came to show
us the WAY of Obedience. Laying down our lives leads to finding
our lives. Finding that Second Man. As we have borne the"image"
of the earthy, law, first covenant, judging after the flesh, misunderstanding, etc. so shall we bear the IMAGE of the Heavenly
a Quickening Spirit. Jesus was given all Judgement to "quicken"
whomsoever He would. LIFE giving Jesus.
Quote from: Tony N on March 07, 2009, 06:03:26 PM
Ya gotta go a little further:
Rom 8:6-8 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, (7) because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
God stacked the deck against Israel. He made a two way covenant with them: They promise to keep ALL the law and they will live. They fail to keep ALL the law, they die by receiving all the curses of the law.
But God didn't come out and tell them they could not keep the law because they were made (by God) as flesh and flesh can't keep the law.
The law came in by the way so that sin would be increasing (Romans 5:20) and the law was given to escort them to Christ (Gal.3:24).
We are not under law but under Grace (Rom.6:14).
Amen, bro T...context and reconciling the whole of scripture. And yes, RLV...Jesus, the Rock of our Salvation, from which springs the wells of living waters...the grace to the nations...not letters written on stone!
Quote from: jabcat on March 08, 2009, 03:49:06 AMQuoteWe are not under law but under Grace (Rom.6:14).
Amen, bro T...context and reconciling the whole of scripture. And yes, RLV...Jesus, the Rock of our Salvation, from which springs the wells of living waters...the grace to the nations...not letters written on stone!
The Law came by Moses. Grace and truth came by Christ. Are we under Him? How about under His words?
Quote from: sparrow on March 07, 2009, 08:12:41 AM
To me the law is just there because people don't yet know what love is and what it means TO LOVE.
Example:
LAW: If you are married, do not sleep with other men.
ME: I love my husband and would lay down my life for him, I love him THAT much. Of COURSE I don't need some law telling me not to sleep with other men! The thought would never even enter into my mind.
The law does not apply to me, in that, LOVE has already kicked that law to the curb. It is not needed.
I do not need a law that tells me to do something dishonorable to the one that I love.
A lot of people get really zoned in on sin. They turn sin into a god. It's true. The law becomes some sort of god to them. How foolish.
What did Jesus come here for in the first place?
To show us the way.
LOVE.
The more you love, the less NEED you have for law....
The law is here to help us see our NEED to LEARN about LOVE.
The more you love, TRULY UNSELFISHLY LOVE, the less you need someone telling you what TO DO and what NOT TO DO... it will be written on your heart.
I don't see why it has to be any more complicated than that.
But that's just me.
I know I'm still the girl on the outside peering in...
I don't know the language.
and that's ok.
I'm ok with that.
peace.
So good Sparrow.
And Paul, that speed limit analogy was great too. Not that the other stuff isn't good, it's just I can relate to yours and Sparrows way of putting it. Interesting how there are volumes and volumes of words about the law and yet I see them all summed up in yours and Sparrows posts.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 08, 2009, 04:51:39 PMSo good Sparrow.
And Paul, that speed limit analogy was great too. Not that the other stuff isn't good, it's just I can relate to yours and Sparrows way of putting it. Interesting how there are volumes and volumes of words about the law and yet I see them all summed up in yours and Sparrows posts.
cp
Wonderful that you understand that claypot. I see the Israelites under the Pharisees as having made the LETTER their god. See the Intent of that Letter, IS God. That is the Spirit, that same Spirit that is in Christ that He delivers in the form of WORDS to us.
Paul
Here is the thing about the laws written in stone, they are the SAME laws written in our hearts and one cannot go into a new country/promised land until they know the laws of that land. And if they break the laws of the land they have entered they pay the piper.
These 10 laws written in stone are not the SAME laws Moses penned (some 600+ laws) these 10 were written by the fingure of God and they are NOT done away with except they are fullfilled in use.
use, I ment us :laughing7:
Quote from: pneuma on March 08, 2009, 06:30:40 PM
Here is the thing about the laws written in stone, they are the SAME laws written in our hearts and one cannot go into a new country/promised land until they know the laws of that land. And if they break the laws of the land they have entered they pay the piper.
These 10 laws written in stone are not the SAME laws Moses penned (some 600+ laws) these 10 were written by the fingure of God and they are NOT done away with except they are fullfilled in use.
My goal will be to look to Jesus to fulfill those laws through me, not by my attempting to "use" them. He is the focus. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, and those have a tendency to begin to stink..."Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor"...God bless us as He teaches us His humility and grace. James.
I think they are the same "laws" but written on STONE is not like
being written on tables of flesh......tables of STONE, or tables
of flesh.
I had a vision once. I saw the tablets. I saw the words written
on the stones........and I saw a "fire" and then an invisible
hand writing in "blood" writing on the same tablets ........"GRACE to the Church."
Praise HIM>
oh my...thank you Father :notworthy:
Thank you for the cross, Lord
Thank you for the price You paid
Bearing all my sin and shame
In love You came
And gave amazing grace
Thank you for this love, Lord
Thank you for the nail pierced hands
Washed me in Your cleansing flow
Now all I know
Your forgiveness and embrace
Worthy is the Lamb
Seated on the throne
Crown You now with many crowns
You reign victorious
High and lifted up
Jesus Son of God
The Darling of Heaven crucified
Worthy is the Lamb
Worthy is the Lamb
Quote from: Redlettervoice on March 08, 2009, 08:42:42 PM
I think they are the same "laws" but written on STONE is not like
being written on tables of flesh......tables of STONE, or tables
of flesh.
I had a vision once. I saw the tablets. I saw the words written
on the stones........and I saw a "fire" and then an invisible
hand writing in "blood" writing on the same tablets ........"GRACE to the Church."
Praise HIM>
:cloud9: Awesome, awesome, God we serve. Thanks for sharing this. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: pneuma on March 08, 2009, 06:30:40 PM
These 10 laws written in stone are not the SAME laws Moses penned (some 600+ laws) these 10 were written by the finger of God and they are NOT done away with except they are fulfilled in us.
:cloud9: I proofread it for ya, LOL....anyway, AMEN, no they are not done away with until He does the works/fulfills them in us. Blessings....
Amen...He does the works/fulfills them in us. I guess ya'll will just have to forgive me if I seem to give too much credit to God :laughing7:. I've failed miserably too many times and have had to have Him pick me up and renew me, despite myself.
:2thumbs:
2Corinthians 3 specifically calls the Ten Commandments the ministry of death and condemnation. They're the only part of the law written on stones (2Corinthians 3:7). In that chapter, the Ten Commandments are called the letter of the law that's not the Spirit. They're what's done away by the surpassing glory of the New Covenant. 2Corinthians 3 isn't validating the allegorical method of interpreting Scripture and villifying keeping things within context and literal where the context indicates it's appropriate. It's calling the Ten Commandments the letter of the law written and engraved on stones and the antithesis, bane, and nemesis of the New Covenant.
:cloud9: If I understood what you said here Martin (?), you're saying that they are not done away with by allegorical interpretation, yes?
Amen, no, argument on that here.......No, they're not; they are done away with by an inward spiritual work of the Spirit, not a mental assent or an allegorical interpretation, that they no longer have authority over us. Our mind, including it's ability to agree with scripture, even revealed scripture, still can't save us or cleanse the motive of the heart. It takes the Spirit to do the work of the sanctification of our souls. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 08, 2009, 11:18:54 PM
:cloud9: If I understood what you said here Martin (?), you're saying that they are not done away with by allegorical interpretation, yes?
Amen, no, argument on that here.......No, they're not; they are done away with by an inward spiritual work of the Spirit, not a mental assent or an allegorical interpretation, that they no longer have authority over us. Our mind, including it's ability to agree with scripture, even revealed scripture, still can't save us or cleanse the motive of the heart. It takes the Spirit to do the work of the sanctification of our souls. Blessings....
The Law still exists just not in Letter. The Law is that which established the Letter. It's a matter of perspective. For example, it is still wrong to lust and covet but not according to the Letter now but according to the Law that established the Letter which is the Spirit of Christ.
Paul
:cloud9: Yes, good point, Paul. Done away with, is misleading, in a way. Fulfilled would be a better term to express what is actually done. Blessings....
Concerning "mankind" .........and the LAW; Eve's disobedience,
and the "route back to OBEDIENCE unto LIFE."
The LAW was "ordained" unto LIFE all along, not unto "sacrifices" of
bulls and goats. But man eating from the tree of knowledge
of good and evil, got a few things mixed up. Then we had to
go all around all this mess to find our way back! To understand
why Paul called it HOLY! The "killing" part was ADDED. It was
"ordained" to LIFE, but then God said "I kill and I make ALIVE."
I personally believe this represents the "great horror" seen by Abraham.
When Paul saw the Truth, he even called the killing part, HOLY.
Because the LAW lead Him to the knowledge of Christ. The mystery.
That is why it says in Psa. 50
"Call my people together, those
that have made a "covenant" with me by "sacrifice"
.......a few
verses down, God says "Will I drink the blood of bulls and goats.?"
"I will not reprove you for these sacrifices, but ......we have to
learn OBEDIENCE is better than "sacrifice and offering".
And"why" Job was called Perfect and Upright even "before" his trials.God was seeing the Second Man in him all along, but Job being born subject to vanity, wasn't.
God says He will "break" our "covenant" of death mentioned there in Psa.
50. It is a covenant man tries to make.The first covenant. Hagar.
Not unto LIFE!
Jesus came to show
us the WAY of Obedience unto Life. Laying down our lives leads to finding
our lives. Finding that Second Man.
As we have borne the"image"
of the earthy, law, first covenant, judging after the flesh, misunderstanding, etc.
so shall we bear the IMAGE of the Heavenly
a Quickening Spirit.
Jesus was given all Judgement to "quicken"
whomsoever He would. LIFE giving Jesus.
Because it is concerning "mankind" is why we are told to henceforth
know no man after the flesh, when we are given understanding.
Judge no man after the flesh. God sets us on a journey that
brings one of a family, two of a city, to the understanding. This
is why it says "as you judge, so shall you be judged."
Therefore they shall "know" my Name! For My Name shall be
GREAT among the heathen. God does many things, works all things
together for the glory of His Name.
Praise HIM! He is the GIFT of God!
Quote from: Cardinal on March 08, 2009, 11:28:23 PM
:cloud9: Yes, good point, Paul. Done away with, is misleading, in a way. Fulfilled would be a better term to express what is actually done. Blessings....
What is interesting is the word "fullfill" means to make "replete" here:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
But look how many think the law is COMPLETELY destroyed. It isn't, and Jesus doesn't want us to believe that it is. Some think that it will go away when it is fulfilled but that is not what it says about the Law. The letter is gone but not the Law. Cardinal, not sure if you read my analogy about the Speed Limit but if not, please read it. It will show you what is wrong with the letter and how if you were to follow the letter, you could be working sin and death.
Paul
:cloud9: Yes, I did read it, but went back and reread it. I agree completely. That was a good analogy, and simplifies what is difficult to comprehend. Obedience to the Spirit eventually ends in setting us free from the law of sin and death, again, not just in word, but in deed (of the Spirit). Blessings....
Quote from: trettep on March 08, 2009, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 08, 2009, 11:28:23 PM
:cloud9: Yes, good point, Paul. Done away with, is misleading, in a way. Fulfilled would be a better term to express what is actually done. Blessings....
What is interesting is the word "fullfill" means to make "replete" here:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
But look how many think the law is COMPLETELY destroyed. It isn't, and Jesus doesn't want us to believe that it is. Some think that it will go away when it is fulfilled but that is not what it says about the Law. The letter is gone but not the Law. Cardinal, not sure if you read my analogy about the Speed Limit but if not, please read it. It will show you what is wrong with the letter and how if you were to follow the letter, you could be working sin and death.
Paul
By fulfill [the law], doesn't he mean to make it complete in that it can now be manifested in a human vessel? He can now fill humans with the law, thereby making them righteous?
fulfillG4137
πληρόω
plēroōplay-ro'-o
From G4134; to make
replete, that is, (literally)
to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively)
to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire,
fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach,
perfect, supply.
"replete"1.Abundantly supplied; abounding:
a stream replete with trout; an apartment replete with Empire furniture.2. Filled to satiation; gorged.
3. Usage Problem Complete:
a computer system replete with color monitor, printer, and software.
:cloud9: Well, that's interesting Molly. I'd say that somehow that is connected in principle to when He told them to put their nets on the right side of the boat (smile). Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on March 08, 2009, 11:49:04 PM
Quote from: trettep on March 08, 2009, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 08, 2009, 11:28:23 PM
:cloud9: Yes, good point, Paul. Done away with, is misleading, in a way. Fulfilled would be a better term to express what is actually done. Blessings....
What is interesting is the word "fullfill" means to make "replete" here:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
But look how many think the law is COMPLETELY destroyed. It isn't, and Jesus doesn't want us to believe that it is. Some think that it will go away when it is fulfilled but that is not what it says about the Law. The letter is gone but not the Law. Cardinal, not sure if you read my analogy about the Speed Limit but if not, please read it. It will show you what is wrong with the letter and how if you were to follow the letter, you could be working sin and death.
Paul
By fulfill [the law], doesn't he mean to make it complete in that it can now be manifested in a human vessel? He can now fill humans with the law, thereby making them righteous?
fulfill
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
"replete"
1.Abundantly supplied; abounding: a stream replete with trout; an apartment replete with Empire furniture.
2. Filled to satiation; gorged.
3. Usage Problem Complete: a computer system replete with color monitor, printer, and software.
Hi Molly,
I loved this that you shared with us....for that is what I have learned too. That one word 'fulfill' has been sooooo MISUNDERSTOOD within the 'church'.....just as the word 'everlasting' has been misunderstood.....
For me, the Lawgiver is/was Yahshua. He is the FULL-FILLment of all the Feasts....He is the pattern for all of us....the divine picture of what the FEAST of TABERNACLES looks like in the flesh...He was and is the living, breathing, talking, walking, Feast of Tabernacles in the flesh! HalleluYah to His most glorious name!
All those who have and are hearing/partaking of the Feasts of Trumpets (the message to go on to perfection...of entering into the REALITY of the Feast of Tabernacles/of Yahweh dwelling within our midst (bodies fully)....FULL REDEMPTION (body, soul, spirit).....these are those that will also FULLFILL the LAW within too. All of this is a process and is unfolding within each believer....and when Father is ready He will at His appointed time draw back the veil to REVEAL His glorious son's and daughter's throughout all the earth that have gone all the way His way(the cross)....the dying of the old man so that the new man can come forth!
To Yahshua belongs all the praise and glory!
DaughterofDavid
Fine Opening Post Daughter of David :icon_flower:
Abundantly provided for, how sweet it is, nothing like honey!
peacemaker
:cloud9: Daughter of David, you're speaking my "language". Good post. :thumbsup: Blessings....
"to go on to perfection"
Yes, very interesting. The whole MSoG discussion (don't hear much about that in the Baptist "Church" :laughing7:) is fascinating. Again, I started that "Works" thread, I'm "working" :bigGrin: through this for myself, and I have honest ponderings about it...we don't attain that perfection, it's Jesus working His righteousness in us, right?
For instance, today, could any of us say "God, you stay out of this, I'm going to work on my perfection today"? I don't think so, don't think it would work worth a hoot, but what do you guys think?
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2009, 02:41:26 AM
"to go on to perfection"
Yes, very interesting. The whole MSoG discussion (don't hear much about that in the Baptist "Church" :laughing7:) is fascinating. Again, I started that "Works" thread, I'm "working" :bigGrin: through this for myself, and I have honest ponderings about it...we don't attain that perfection, it's Jesus working His righteousness in us, right?
For instance, today, could any of us say "God, you stay out of this, I'm going to work on my perfection today"? I don't think so, don't think it would work worth a hoot, but what do you guys think?
Hi Jabcat,
First of all I want to state that 'the whole MSoG discussion' can be interpreted differently by many people....and honestly I don't like labels....(for there are some within the understanding of Sonship that lean way to far towards New Age teachings and then there are others that swing to the other side with a very self righteous 'ELECT mentality'.....I prefer those that are of the Holy Ground.....the Holy Ground of HUMILITY....of understanding that Sonship is a glorious heavenly call that one can only receive by REVELATION...and once it is truly received and understood by the hearer that they have been APPREHENDED BY CHRIST....then they too will SELL ALL THAT THEY HAVE to purchase the PEARL OF GREAT PRICE.)
How much of the Lord do you want?
We all have been given a measure of faith and grace.....(remember the parable of the talents).....and it is what we do with what we have been given that will be REWARDED....for salvation is a free gift for ALL.....but Sonship is a reward (that might make some offended but it is what it is).....and for me my desire is that I want to run the particular race that is set before me in such a way that I win the PRIZE of the HEAVENLY CALLING....and so with the grace and faith that has been given to me I ask for my Holy FORERUNNER to RUN and FINISH what needs to be FINISHED within. It is all about LABORING to enter into HIS REST.
There is a labor that we must do....but once again it is all by His grace given that we choose to cooperate with whatever He is wanting us to yeild to Him in.
Hope that helps..... :smile:
DaughterofDavid
"our Holy FORERUNNER"
I love it! :bgdance:
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
--Heb 2
Yep, I like it and agree...salvation the gift (Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus);
then running a good race, fighting a good fight, and quoting you DoD, "once again it is all by His grace given".... (But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you), and ...(God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work 2 Corinthians 9:8.)
The Lord is my strength...Ps. 28:7.
Very good,
God's blessing, James.
.
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2009, 02:41:26 AM
"to go on to perfection"
Yes, very interesting. The whole MSoG discussion (don't hear much about that in the Baptist "Church" :laughing7:) is fascinating. Again, I started that "Works" thread, I'm "working" :bigGrin: through this for myself, and I have honest ponderings about it...we don't attain that perfection, it's Jesus working His righteousness in us, right?
For instance, today, could any of us say "God, you stay out of this, I'm going to work on my perfection today"? I don't think so, don't think it would work worth a hoot, but what do you guys think?
Yes, Jebcat it is Christ working through us to put down sin in our own flesh. This is how He saves us. He overcomes our own flesh by His very nature in us. Many will claim there is no more Law because we are under Grace. But the Law remains. Is there then Sabbath observance? - yes, because in Christ we rest from OUR works. So by Faith we establish the Law.
Yes, Jebcat it is a matter of perspective concerning the works. So think about that very thing that it is Christ who saves us by His work through us.
Paul
OK, I had just posted in the Works thread that we may be saying the same thing, just speaking a little different language...one thing that has caused me to wonder though, are your two earlier statements that "we work to access grace", and we "work to stay saved". Even if we don't see it the same, God will lead us both into His truths; also, I don't have the final word or the complete understanding, but I do like to know what folks are really saying, and what's "underneath" what they're saying. So forgive me if I'm having a hearing problem (AY?) but I'm trying to reconcile your last post, with the 2 statements above you made earlier. To my understanding, they are very different things. Not that it matters so much, but I do agree with your last post...but I don't agree that we either work to access God's saving grace, or that our works keep it.
Ok, I've said (again) how I see it, and if you wish to move on to something else, so be it...but if you wish to clarify how those things reconcile for you, that's a good thing too.
God is good, and He's working all according to His will. :thumbsup:
God's blessing, James.
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2009, 05:57:03 AM
OK, I had just posted in the Works thread that we may be saying the same thing, just speaking a little different language...one thing that has caused me to wonder though, are your two earlier statements that "we work to access grace", and we "work to stay saved". Even if we don't see it the same, God will lead us both into His truths; also, I don't have the final word or the complete understanding, but I do like to know what folks are really saying, and what's "underneath" what they're saying. So forgive me if I'm having a hearing problem (AY?) but I'm trying to reconcile your last post, with the 2 statements above you made earlier. To my understanding, they are very different things. Not that it matters so much, but I do agree with your last post...but I don't agree that we either work to access God's saving grace, or that our works keep it.
Ok, I've said (again) how I see it, and if you wish to move on to something else, so be it...but if you wish to clarify how those things reconcile for you, that's a good thing too.
God is good, and He's working all according to His will. :thumbsup:
God's blessing, James.
Jebcat, I'm very fortunate to have you peer so deeply into what I'm saying. So often I say these things, hoping to offer the Gold that Christ has given me, only to find that nobody is interested at all. So I welcome your study of what I'm saying Jebcat.
Paul
[quote author=DaughterofDavid link=topic=5017.msg55019#msg55019
(for there are some within the understanding of Sonship that lean way to far towards New Age teachings and then there are others that swing to the other side with a very self righteous 'ELECT mentality'.....I prefer those that are of the Holy Ground.....the Holy Ground of HUMILITY....of understanding that Sonship is a glorious heavenly call that one can only receive by REVELATION...and once it is truly received and understood by the hearer that they have been APPREHENDED BY CHRIST....then they too will SELL ALL THAT THEY HAVE to purchase the PEARL OF GREAT PRICE.) [/quote]
:cloud9: Thank You, Father...... :thumbsup:
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 06:15:02 AM
[
Jebcat, I'm very fortunate to have you peer so deeply into what I'm saying. So often I say these things, hoping to offer the Gold that Christ has given me, only to find that nobody is interested at all. So I welcome your study of what I'm saying Jebcat.
Paul
Bless you brother...I'm a little ( a lot) compulsive, and it's at this point I figure I'm being a pain in the rear rather than a blessing :bigGrin:. Hey, I don't have it all figured out, just ask anyone here :laughing7:...these 2 topics "Law" and "Works" are biggies for me. I was raised in an extremely fundamental, legalistic environment, and most of my adult life has been a journey out of that...sometimes crashing and burning, sometimes taking a few steps forward...but obviously, very important issues for me as I've stumbled around in this whole area of grace and works. I'm probably one of the worst at trying to justify myself by my flesh, "living right", worrying about so many little details about "how to please God", so I'm working through stuff as I type this...rather, God working me through it :mblush:...
Anyway, no arguing, let's prefer each other in love, and I've been more involved in discussion these past couple of days than usual...I may just suddenly back out and let you and others work on it for awhile, we'll see where God leads.
Thanks for your kind heart. There are those that bring with their beliefs a very difficult personality and attitude to go along with it, and you are very gracious. Thank you. As far as I know, none of us has yet reached perfection, but "Oh how He loves you and me"...sorry, sometimes I just break out in song.
God's blessing, James.
Same Law
We read is 2 Corinthians that the ministration of death is to be done away with.
What! How can that which leads to Christ be done away with?
Read on.
2 Corinthians 3:6-14
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
Luke 10:25-27
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
These commandment were known and read.
So then why does it say in another place it's a new commandment?
Answer to this question is further down in the post.
John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1 John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
2 John 5-6
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Answer: Because the natural man ( old man ) does not understand spiritual things.
When the Spirit of God reveals the true meaning of the law to us , it becomes new to our understanding, but the truth was always held in the law, for the law is spiritual.
John explains this when he wrote "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning."
Then he explains why the old commandment becomes new "because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth."
The commandments then have been written in our hearts.
I 'll repeat this
It's the same law, its just how we apprehend the law, for the old man it's death, for the new man it's the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.
When we are in Christ all things become new.
A new heaven and earth.
Romans 8:1-4
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.
I am in full agreement with this statement.
So then how does the law of the Spirit of life frees us from the law of sin and death?
We have to die to self before we are free from the law of sin and death.
Now we cannot die to self because we are weak though the flesh, or said another way, our fleshly natural life cannot die to itself.
Thus God sending His son in the likeness of sinful flesh ,and for sin ,condemned sin in the flesh.
For what purpose?
That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED in us.
This is done not of works but by faith in Jesus Christ.
We of our own selves cannot keep Gods laws, but Though faith in Christ we are able to fulfill Gods law.
Jesus Christ is our example 1Pe.2:21
Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Now as Jesus is our example and He fulfilled the law ,we must also fulfill the law or we do not live after our example.
Now let me make this as plain as I can so no one accuses me of trying to bring us again into bondage of the law.
It is though faith in Jesus Christ that the law can only be fulfilled, not by any works of the law we try to do. The fulfilling of Gods law is all done though faith.
The above scripture say Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Until the law though Christ is fulfilled in us by faith one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.
Galatians 2:15-21
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
This passage of scripture is speaking of trying to be justified by the works of the law, this we cannot do. Our justification come only though faith in Jesus Christ. For if righteousness cometh by the works ( for it is works of the law these scriptures are speaking of) of the law then Christ is dead in vain. Paul explains how it is though life in Christ that he liveth. Therefore it is Christ that liveth in us and not of ourselves that Gods law is fulfilled. For Jesus Christ fulfilled Gods law in His person and He will fulfill it in ours also.
This is explained further in
Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The end of the law is the fulfillment of it for Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.
When the law is fulfilled in us though Jesus Christ the law has no more hold on us for we have become dead to it but alive onto Christ.
This is worth repeating here:
And it is by fulfilling the law that the law no longer has any power over us.
Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
We can see here that love is the fulfilling the law.
Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
All Gods law hang on two principles: to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbour as ourselves.
If God law is done away with then so is the commandment to love the Lord with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves for on these two commandments HANG all the law and the prophets.
if you can except it the commandments "thou shalt not" are not just commandments per say but they are also a commandment with the promise to us " thou shalt not".
Example: "thou shalt not" covet is a commandment telling us not to covet.
Now if we look at the promise side of it we see
"Thou shalt not" covet, meaning when we are in Christ we "will not covet."
1 John 3:20-24
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater
than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that KEEPETH his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
If we are not keeping His commandments we are not dwelling in Him, but have again come under the law.
It is the fulfilling of the law that loosens us from the bondage of the letter of the law.
This is only done by faith in Jesus Christ who fulfills Gods law in us
.
If we are alive in Him how can we not but fulfill Gods law.
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2009, 07:20:50 AMBless you brother...I'm a little ( a lot) compulsive, and it's at this point I figure I'm being a pain in the rear rather than a blessing :bigGrin:. Hey, I don't have it all figured out, just ask anyone here :laughing7:...these 2 topics "Law" and "Works" are biggies for me. I was raised in an extremely fundamental, legalistic environment, and most of my adult life has been a journey out of that...sometimes crashing and burning, sometimes taking a few steps forward...but obviously, very important issues for me as I've stumbled around in this whole area of grace and works. I'm probably one of the worst at trying to justify myself by my flesh, "living right", worrying about so many little details about "how to please God", so I'm working through stuff as I type this...rather, God working me through it :mblush:...
Anyway, no arguing, let's prefer each other in love, and I've been more involved in discussion these past couple of days than usual...I may just suddenly back out and let you and others work on it for awhile, we'll see where God leads.
Thanks for your kind heart. There are those that bring with their beliefs a very difficult personality and attitude to go along with it, and you are very gracious. Thank you. As far as I know, none of us has yet reached perfection, but "Oh how He loves you and me"...sorry, sometimes I just break out in song.
God's blessing, James.
James, please know that I love you brother and I'm blessed to have you!
Paul
pneuma, that was a very nice post.
Paul
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
--Rom 10
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?
How could they not know him?
This is such a hard concept to get your head around.
But, it's true, they didn't know him.
And, not knowing him, they made their choices out of knowledge and fear and selfishness and self interest, instead of out of love.
10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
--Heb 3
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2009, 02:16:38 PM
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
--Rom 10
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?
How could they not know him?
This is such a hard concept to get your head around.
But, it's true, they didn't know him.
And, not knowing him, they made their choices out of knowledge and fear and selfishness and self interest, instead of out of love.
10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
--Heb 3
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?
Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 02:27:48 PM
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?
Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
:icon_flower:
I tend to agree that it was ignorance. I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 02:27:48 PM
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?
Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
:icon_flower:
I tend to agree that it was ignorance. I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law.
Paul
It's a type of idolatry, isn't it? Looks to me like all idolatry is man worshipping himself, instead of worshipping God.
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 02:27:48 PM
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?
Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
:icon_flower:
I tend to agree that it was ignorance. I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law.
Paul
:icon_flower:
Ignorant in Not KNOWING Him iN Their Heart, oppossed to Not Knowing who HE WAS?
Do you Not think that he made Himself Know to Them many times saying that the scriptures be Fulfilled etc,IE making Himself Known, bearing witness to the teachings of JB and the sciptures
But They did Not Know HIM In their Hearts, therefore ,ignorant believing in the Letter not HIM :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 03:17:47 PM:icon_flower:
Ignorant in Not KNOWING Him iN Their Heart, oppossed to Not Knowing who HE WAS?
Do you Not think that he made Himself Know to Them many times saying that the scriptures be Fulfilled etc,IE making Himself Known, bearing witness to the teachings of JB and the sciptures
But They did Not Know HIM In their Hearts, therefore ,ignorant believing in the Letter not HIM :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
I think they thought he was a heretic. I don't think they knew He was the Christ in their hearts or believed otherwise that He was the Christ.
Paul
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 03:17:47 PM
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 02:27:48 PM
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?
Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
:icon_flower:
I tend to agree that it was ignorance. I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law.
Paul
:icon_flower:
Ignorant in Not KNOWING Him iN Their Heart, oppossed to Not Knowing who HE WAS?
Do you Not think that he made Himself Know to Them many times saying that the scriptures be Fulfilled etc,IE making Himself Known, bearing witness to the teachings of JB and the sciptures
But They did Not Know HIM In their Hearts, therefore ,ignorant believing in the Letter not HIM :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when
they knew God, they
glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Hi Pnuema,
Thank you for all that you shared with us.
I want to share something that I have learned about the letter of the law and how when it is understood by the Spirit leads to LIFE.
As with many here, the Lord has used much in my life to teach me and bring me to where I am IN HIM today. A few years ago the Lord led my family to 'camp' for a season within the Hebraic Roots community (Messianic/Two-House)....and it was during that time that I learned about the Feasts of the Lord, the keeping of the Sabbath, the dietary laws, on and on.....
All of this was very eye-opening to me and I found it to be fascinating....b/c I had never been taught what these things were and represented within the 'church'....for I had been taught that the Law had been 'done away with'.
There are many things that I am so grateful to Father for unfolding to me through the teachings that I received from my Hebraic brethren. I learned the difference between "Hebrew thinking" and "Greek thinking".....and for many within the 'church system' the prevelant understanding of scripture comes from a 'Greek mentality'. What do I mean by 'Greek mentality' as opposed to 'Hebraic mentality'?
Hebraic thinking is circular and concrete....whereas Greek understanding is linear and abstract.
What do I mean by circular and concrete? In the Hebraic community (Messianic/Judaism/Two-House/Joseph-Ephraim & Judah...for it truly is the coat of many colors :wink3:)... one is brought up understanding that everything is cyclical....every year there is the celebrating of the Feasts...these are CONCRETE/REAL/ experiences that one will have every year that is rich with spiritual symbolism. There is also a cyclical reading of the Torah....called the Torah portions....for a portion of the Torah is read weekly by all those that are Torah observant believers throughout the earth....everyone is on the same page so to speak....for example this week the reading begins in Exodus Chapter 30 verse 11....in fact....this week is the celebration of Purim....and for me I always heighten my awareness in the Spirit when these biblical feasts/celebrations are taking place in the earth b/c I know that there is much activity in the Heavenly realm that is being played out on the earth....for these are types/shadows of the REAL.
In fact, I believe this week will be a glorious week for all those that are of Christ....for they will experience a real victory over their enemies (areas of weakness, bad habits, sin, ect...) for the conquering King will be galloping throughout their earth destroying their enemies within. Now, I also am aware that these things might take a literal form in the earth too....and could very well represent a 'Haman' that will attack a 'Mordekai/Esther"....but in the end the VICTORY IS SURE. HalleluYah! So I will be watching....watching to see what Holy Spirit puts his finger on within my life to surrender and ask for Him to overcome within me....and watching in the earth realm too to see what the Lord may allow to happen so that the end result will be to bring forth a victory over Yahweh's enemies. As we all have seen with our own eyes the very REAL toppling of the system of Babylon (economic right now...but very soon the ENTIRE system will collapse....political, judicial, religious ect.).
For me, the Hebraic understanding is a beautiful picture of HEAVEN & EARTH meeting....of learning and walking out in the earth the type/shadow so that the UNDERSTANDING of the REAL can come forth....for it was in obedience of celebrating our first Feast of Tabernacles that Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the understanding of SONSHIP! Whew....I praise you Father! As my precious little family took a step of faith and set up our tent in the backyard and for seven days camped out....the King of Glory MET with us (for truly it is HIS HOLY APPOINTMENT and He does SHOW UP to keep it... :HeartThrob:)....and REVEALED the truth of what it will be like when He dwells FULLY within His people....and from that moment on He has continued to open my eyes to deeper truths....the Salvation of ALL....the lie of eternal torment....the glorious call of being made a King-Priest....ohhhh.....what a SAVIOUR! What a LORD! I praise you Yahshua.....(clap, clap, clap!!) :dsunny: :happyclap: :ginlove:
On the other hand....'Greek mentality' is abstract and linear.....and this is what has been a 'robbing' of the understanding of many within christendom. For there has been this mentality that these Feasts have been done away with....that it only matters that you understand them inwardly (and yes this is true that we must understand inwardly and at the same time...there is a very real shoe leather walk to many things that as we do and practice these things more revelation will be unfolded to us)....the linear of A+B=C....is what has also stunted many believers from going on to the deeper truths.
Romans 11:36...."For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever, amen.".....
This one scripture alone reveals the CIRCULARITY OF YAHWEH.....and yet....those that have been raised with a linear understanding cannot SEE the truth....and therefore cannot see the revelation of Salvation for ALL....
Those that are steeped in ABSTRACT thinking ....cannot truly raise their children with the foundation of being able to see, touch, feel, the DEEPER TRUTHS of Sabbath, of Sonship, of the Salvation of all....
Our family obeys the commandment to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy....and yes we do it literally from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday....and as we gather around our table we teach our children that we do this to honor the Lord and we do this to teach them what THE REAL SABBATH LOOKS LIKE....we ask the children..."Do we work on the Sabbath?...and the children say no....(they love that they don't have to clean their rooms :bigGrin:)....then we proceed to explain that Yahshua was the DIVINE picture of what the Sabbath looked like....and that we too are being made to be JUST AS HE IS....". We give great detail on how the Lord was able to feed five thousand....He didn't need to work....He just trusted Father to provide and multiply the food for him....He could Heal....he didn't need money to go to the doctor....for He is the GREAT PHYSCIAN....whew! ....on and on....and you know what....THEY GET IT....they really are starting to understand....and these are little ones....
He cares so much about our children...this is why He speaks so profoundly through the types/shadows of the Law...and there is much in the Divine Law that instructs on how to live in the Kingdom....but that is for another thread. :bigGrin:
Be blessed Tentmaker family!!
DaughterofDavid
:cloud9: YES, YES, YES! I have felt for many years that this was His heart for the church as we know it, that we walk out certain things in obedience; not out of an obligation to the law, but out of love for Him AND our fellow man (and children) that they need a VISIBLE witness of these things.
I have been blessed to be shown these things in the Word without ever experiencing them in shoe leather in the natural realm (though I have in the Spirit), but how much EASIER it would have been to SEE the things of God if they were a part of your natural experience.
About 15 years ago, He literally led me to go to the 5th Messianic convention. I say, literally, because this is how it happened. I was not online then, had no idea there even was such a thing, had no idea He was starting to bring in the Jews. A friend of mine, for no apparent reason, got a postcard about this event, in her mail. Thinking it junk mail, she went to pitch it, and the Lord spoke to her and told her not to, that it was for me.
Now she had no idea at that point, that the Lord had been teaching me things that I realized were intended to persuade a Jewish audience. And He was filling me with his love for them, so much so, I asked Him to lead me to some, so I could pour out His love on them, and this was TWO YEARS, before she got this card in the mail.
So the conference was only 2 weeks away, and He ended up sending 5 friends (including HER, LOL) with me. But before I went, He began to speak to me about how it was the last days because He was bringing in the Jews now, and that the church had been Helenized, had lost it's Jewishness and that He was restoring what was lost now. I had NO IDEA of any of this, except it being the last days of the last day.
The first night we got there we were late because we had to wait for one to get off work, but we made it and there was a concert the first night, by Messianic Jewish recording artists. It was contemporary music, some of it, but some was more traditional.
Now you all can believe this if you want, or not, it matters not to me, but as soon as I stood there in the midst of dancers in traditional dress hearing the music, the words of some of which were in Hebrew, I heard the Lord as loud as I have ever heard Him say,
"I'M HOME, I'M HOME, I'M HOME!" And there was the most profound crying out in my Spirit of the emotion of having been gone for SO long, walking in a strange (Gentiles) land, that I was sobbing. My friends asked me what was wrong with me, and I told them.
Now this was 13 years before I even knew I was of Jewish origin (though He tried to tell me in a dream), so there was no reason for ME to think anything like this, about ANY of it. And by the way, it was one of the most amazing weekends of our lives, He definitely met us there. Just sharing......Blessings.....
/
Zeek, gave these scriptures:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.
Is this what Eve and Adam did? In their disobediance
to God?
Quote from: Cardinal on March 09, 2009, 05:31:28 PM
:cloud9: YES, YES, YES! I have felt for many years that this was His heart for the church as we know it, that we walk out certain things in obedience; not out of an obligation to the law, but out of love for Him AND our fellow man (and children) that they need a VISIBLE witness of these things.
I have been blessed to be shown these things in the Word without ever experiencing them in shoe leather in the natural realm (though I have in the Spirit), but how much EASIER it would have been to SEE the things of God if they were a part of your natural experience.
About 15 years ago, He literally led me to go to the 5th Messianic convention. I say, literally, because this is how it happened. I was not online then, had no idea there even was such a thing, had no idea He was starting to bring in the Jews. A friend of mine, for no apparent reason, got a postcard about this event, in her mail. Thinking it junk mail, she went to pitch it, and the Lord spoke to her and told her not to, that it was for me.
Now she had no idea at that point, that the Lord had been teaching me things that I realized were intended to persuade a Jewish audience. And He was filling me with his love for them, so much so, I asked Him to lead me to some, so I could pour out His love on them, and this was TWO YEARS, before she got this card in the mail.
So the conference was only 2 weeks away, and He ended up sending 5 friends (including HER, LOL) with me. But before I went, He began to speak to me about how it was the last days because He was bringing in the Jews now, and that the church had been Helenized, had lost it's Jewishness and that He was restoring what was lost now. I had NO IDEA of any of this, except it being the last days of the last day.
The first night we got there we were late because we had to wait for one to get off work, but we made it and there was a concert the first night, by Messianic Jewish recording artists. It was contemporary music, some of it, but some was more traditional.
Now you all can believe this if you want, or not, it matters not to me, but as soon as I stood there in the midst of dancers in traditional dress hearing the music, the words of some of which were in Hebrew, I heard the Lord as loud as I have ever heard Him say,
"I'M HOME, I'M HOME, I'M HOME!" And there was the most profound crying out in my Spirit of the emotion of having been gone for SO long, walking in a strange (Gentiles) land, that I was sobbing. My friends asked me what was wrong with me, and I told them.
Now this was 13 years before I even knew I was of Jewish origin (though He tried to tell me in a dream), so there was no reason for ME to think anything like this, about ANY of it. And by the way, it was one of the most amazing weekends of our lives, He definitely met us there. Just sharing......Blessings.....
WOWOW!! My sister!
What a glorious testimony...thank you so much for sharing it with us.
You are so right...how much EASIER it would have been for most of us if we had been able to SEE the things of God if they had been a part of our natural experiences.
This is what I believe too is that He is restoring back to His Holy ISRAEL people the ANCIENT PATHS (by Israel I am referring to ALL 12 tribes...for the House of Judah are those of Judah, Benjamin and some of Levi.... the House of Israel also known as House of Joseph consist of the other 10 tribes....for scripture uses the words Israel and Joseph/Ephraim interchangably and these were those that Paul ministered to.... known as the Gentiles/Greeks (same understanding)for they had lost their identity after being absorbed into the pagan culture of Assyria....however the House of Judah never lost it's identity when taken captive by Babylon but retained it....(I believe that the 'church' is of Joseph/Ephraim and just as we see in scripture the picture of how Joseph lost his TRUE IDENTITY and looked Egyptian (had taken on many pagan customs...as the church has done through Constatine....to such an extent that His brother "Judah" did not recoginize Him)....and so Yahweh used BABY BROTHER BENJAMIN to be the vehicle to bring about reconciliation to BOTH HOUSES... Benjamin means 'SON of MY RIGHT HAND" and is the glorious picture of SONSHIP and the OVERCOMERS...The Sons within the Son....and all this speaks to the the DEEPER truth that there are overcomers WITHIN all 12 tribes that are found to be IN CHRIST).... :bigGrin:
This that I write of above is the 2 sticks BECOMING ONE....Judah and Joseph (Jews and Christians....all professing the LORDSHIP and KINGSHIP of Yahshua as Messiah).... :HeartThrob:
Eze 37:16 Thou therefore Son of man Take thee one stick, and write upon it For Judah, and for the sons of Israel his companions, Then take thou another stick, and write upon it For Joseph the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel his companions.
Eze 37:17 Then bring them near—the one to the other —for thee into one stick,- And they shall become united in thy hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the sons of thy people speak unto thee I. saying,- Wt thou not tell us what these things are to thee?
Eze 37:19 speak unto them Thus saith My Lord Yahweh, Lo! I, myself, am going to take the stick of Joseph. which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions,— And I will place them upon it even upon the stick of Judah. And will make of them one stick, And they shall become one in my hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou shalt write shall remain in thy hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 Therefore speak thou unto them Thus, saith My Lord Yahweh, Lo! myself am going to take the sons of Israel, from among the nations whither they have gone,— And I will gather them from every side, And will bring them in upon their own so;
Eze 37:22 And will make of them one nation in the land. among the mountains of Israel, And one king, shall they all have for king, —And they shall remain no longer two nations, Nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more.
I truly believe with all my heart that this is happening right now....
I loved that you heard Him say....I am home....whewww....oh how He loves when His people dwell together in harmony....as Yahshua said..."they will know us by our love for one another." :dsunny:
Come quickly Lord!
DaughterofDavid
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 09, 2009, 06:39:42 PM
(I believe that the 'church' is of Joseph/Ephraim and just as we see in scripture the picture of how Joseph lost his TRUE IDENTITY and looked Egyptian (had taken on many pagan customs...as the church has done through Constantine....to such an extent that His brother "Judah" did not recognize Him)....and so Yahweh used BABY BROTHER BENJAMIN to be the vehicle to bring about reconciliation to BOTH HOUSES... Benjamin means 'SON of MY RIGHT HAND" and is the glorious picture of SONSHIP and the OVERCOMERS...The Sons within the Son....and all this speaks to the the DEEPER truth that there are overcomers WITHIN all 12 tribes that are found to be IN CHRIST).... :bigGrin:
This that I write of above is the 2 sticks BECOMING ONE....Judah and Joseph (Jews and Christians....all professing the LORDSHIP and KINGSHIP of Yahshua as Messiah).... :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Amen, I know of the two house teaching. A lot of the Messianics are against it, but they don't have the understanding of the sons of God so cannot see it yet. I was shown part of this by Moses's rod swallowing up the Egyptians rods. It takes "picking up snakes" to be one of "them that believe", does it not? (smile) Good post :thumbsup: Blessings....
DODavid and Card good post sisters, enjoyed them very much. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 03:26:25 PM
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Remember Zeek those verses are partaining to those who Knew the Truth and departed from it. It doesn't concern those that are ignorant. Those that were persecuting Jesus knew not what they did.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who
hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Paul
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 03:26:25 PM
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Remember Zeek those verses are partaining to those who Knew the Truth and departed from it. It doesn't concern those that are ignorant. Those that were persecuting Jesus knew not what they did.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Paul
kind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
so do ignorant ones, then have an excuse??
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:54:37 PMkind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
I believe they were both ignorant as well. How could they know Good and Evil until they took of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? So they were both ignorant of their crime. This again is why I believe that God is responsible for our sins be we are accountable for them.
Paul
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:57:55 PM
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
so do ignorant ones, then have an excuse??
I believe Jesus affirms that when He said this:
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:54:37 PMkind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
I believe they were both ignorant as well. How could they know Good and Evil until they took of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? So they were both ignorant of their crime. This again is why I believe that God is responsible for our sins be we are accountable for them.
Paul
so what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:54:37 PMkind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
I believe they were both ignorant as well. How could they know Good and Evil until they took of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? So they were both ignorant of their crime. This again is why I believe that God is responsible for our sins be we are accountable for them.
I'm editing to add. That I believe they are guilty of sin but not guilty of having betrayed Christ.
Paul
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PMso what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
I would love to go into that Zeek, but I been informed about lingering sensitivities on the forum by a moderator about teaching and my thoughts on that are very radical as compared to the mainstream and I might risk being banned from this forum. But if you want to contact me privately outside of the forum via email, I would be more than happy to tell you about my thoughts on that.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:14:32 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PMso what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
I would love to go into that Zeek, but I been informed about lingering sensitivities on the forum by a moderator about teaching and my thoughts on that are very radical as compared to the mainstream and I might risk being banned from this forum. But if you want to contact me privately outside of the forum via email, I would be more than happy to tell you about my thoughts on that.
Paul
By all means Your Welcome to share your thoughts and if need be expound on them Paul ,Teaching \preaching per say is when WE INSIST to others ,WE are RIGHT and YOU are wrong. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 09:34:43 PMBy all means Your Welcome to share your thoughts and if need be expound on them Paul ,Teaching \preaching per say is when WE INSIST to others ,WE are RIGHT and YOU are wrong. :icon_flower:
Taffy, I have your permission I would like to start another thead on that subject or more specifically one called "Who is the Serpent". I know my remarks in it will lead to many questions that would derail this thread.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 11:10:08 PM
Quote from: Taffy on March 09, 2009, 09:34:43 PMBy all means Your Welcome to share your thoughts and if need be expound on them Paul ,Teaching \preaching per say is when WE INSIST to others ,WE are RIGHT and YOU are wrong. :icon_flower:
Taffy, I have your permission I would like to start another thead on that subject or more specifically one called "Who is the Serpent". I know my remarks in it will lead to many questions that would derail this thread.
Paul
Paul, if youve read the guidelines on the board as you mentioned you would do...THEN PLEASE go ahead :icon_flower:
Quote Taf; "Teaching \preaching per say is when WE INSIST to others ,WE are RIGHT and YOU are wrong."
Ooh, Taf, good one. :bigGrin:. Thoughts/discussion, not insisting...Good definition...you just cut right to the chase...boy did we need you when we were trying to define this earlier! I could have written a whole page and not been so clear...a good word to all (note to self; James, keep this in mind) :thumbsup:.
Hey Taf, did you see in the Economy thread about your new job and what all you're now going to be blamed for? You're welcome :laughing7
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2009, 11:26:49 PM
Hey Taf, did you see in the Economy thread about your new job and what all you're now going to be blamed for? You're welcome :laughing7
Taffy like to stay away from work. That why he became a Christian :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 09, 2009, 11:55:42 PM
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2009, 11:26:49 PM
Hey Taf, did you see in the Economy thread about your new job and what all you're now going to be blamed for? You're welcome :laughing7
Taffy like to stay away from work. That why he became a Christian :laughing7:
LOL...Taf will tap both our heads with a 9-iron if we don't watch out...I've just found out that guy was/is a fine golfer...well, he's from the right part of the world...the game began over there...I have a hilarious bit of historical info on golf (goffe) from like the 1600's I will post on the Humor thread.
"A pipe gives a wise man time to think, and he that is not wise something to stick in his mouth to keep him listening."
In other words, to be wise one must listen and consider his own thoughts, along with those of others.
Just thinking out loud while smoking my pipe! :secret:
peacemaker
The LAW!
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. :bgdance:
Paul
For me, the purpose for bearing the burden of another, is so that the burden can be released rather than emphasized. That's where freedom manifests . . .at the altar of incense . . . I'll take up your burden, but don't expect me to carry it . . . I'll help release yours if you help me release mine . . . :bgdance:
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:14:32 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PMso what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
I would love to go into that Zeek, but I been informed about lingering sensitivities on the forum by a moderator about teaching and my thoughts on that are very radical as compared to the mainstream and I might risk being banned from this forum. But if you want to contact me privately outside of the forum via email, I would be more than happy to tell you about my thoughts on that.
Paul
I'm also interested in that, too Paul.
I would also like to hear your thoughts from a post above as to why it would say in Romans 1:20 that we are without excuse, While Jesus said we know not what we do. I'm not challenging that position, just having trouble wrapping my head around it; maybe your explanation will help me see it clearly...
:cloud9: I think your both right, Pierac and Nathan.....in the Spirit He sometimes sends the burden to you, so that truly we bear the burdens of the weak, and travail for that thing to be gone or resolved, birthing out of the Spirit, new life in the person/situation. Blessings....
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 01:17:12 AM
I'm also interested in that, too Paul.
I would also like to hear your thoughts from a post above as to why it would say in Romans 1:20 that we are without excuse, While Jesus said we know not what we do. I'm not challenging that position, just having trouble wrapping my head around it; maybe your explanation will help me see it clearly...
I'm sorry Doc, but I'm not going to be starting any new threads. I'm going to comment more to existing threads instead of starting new ones at least for now.
Paul
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PM
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:54:37 PMkind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
I believe they were both ignorant as well. How could they know Good and Evil until they took of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? So they were both ignorant of their crime. This again is why I believe that God is responsible for our sins be we are accountable for them.
Paul
so what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
Adam knew the serpent was lying. He knew they would die if they ate from the tree. He knew what God had commanded him.
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 04:46:35 AM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PM
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:54:37 PMkind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
I believe they were both ignorant as well. How could they know Good and Evil until they took of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? So they were both ignorant of their crime. This again is why I believe that God is responsible for our sins be we are accountable for them.
Paul
so what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
Adam knew the serpent was lying. He knew they would die if they ate from the tree. He knew what God had commanded him.
You might even say he knew the father, and chose to turn away, fall from grace. Willful sin.
??
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 04:55:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 04:46:35 AM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PM
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:54:37 PMkind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
I believe they were both ignorant as well. How could they know Good and Evil until they took of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? So they were both ignorant of their crime. This again is why I believe that God is responsible for our sins be we are accountable for them.
Paul
so what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
Adam knew the serpent was lying. He knew they would die if they ate from the tree. He knew what God had commanded him.
You might even say he knew the father, and chose to turn away, fall from grace. Willful sin.
??
Only if you think he was acting outside of the will of the Father.
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope...--Rom 8
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 05:32:53 AM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 04:55:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 04:46:35 AM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PM
Quote from: trettep on March 09, 2009, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 09, 2009, 08:54:37 PMkind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??
I believe they were both ignorant as well. How could they know Good and Evil until they took of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? So they were both ignorant of their crime. This again is why I believe that God is responsible for our sins be we are accountable for them.
Paul
so what does it mean by that Adam wasnt' deceived??
Adam knew the serpent was lying. He knew they would die if they ate from the tree. He knew what God had commanded him.
You might even say he knew the father, and chose to turn away, fall from grace. Willful sin.
??
Only if you think he was acting outside of the will of the Father.
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope...
--Rom 8
but when did he subject them to vanity??
was it before or after he sinned??
I think these verses hint at this
Rom 1:21 Because that,
when they knew God (i'm thinking Adam knew God), they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became
vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing
themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who
changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
It seems like, a willful turning away, so then, they were turned over to a reprobate mind.
seems like the subjection came after willful sin??
??
what ya think??
I don't honestly know what to think. I wonder a lot about who Adam really was. Who is the one who subjected the creation to frustration/vanity? Adam made that decision, didn't he? He was not deceived.
Or was it the LORD God? Or was it both?
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 05:51:31 AM
I don't honestly know what to think. I wonder a lot about who Adam really was. Who is the one who subjected the creation to frustration/vanity? Adam made that decision, didn't he? He was not deceived.
Or was it the LORD God? Or was it both?
hmmm.
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.
QuoteRom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
These verses do not really apply to Adam, because even outside the garden, YHWH is there with them and they are performing sacrifice to the LORD.
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:01:51 AM
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.
No. He is the image of the one who is to come--Yah's salvation--Y'shuah.
He is the son of God.
Adam....., who is the figure of him that was to come.--Rom 5
hmmm, all interesting; so much i don't get re: this
here's some thots
John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar (?? not deceived) and the father of it.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
It was Adam that brought death (through murder??) unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.
????
Ez 28
8 They will cause you to go down to the Pit, and you shall die the deaths of the slain in the heart of the seas.
9 Saying, do you say, I am of the gods before him who strikes you? But you are a man, and not God, in the hands of him who pierces you.
11 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,
12 Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord Jehovah: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground.
Is 14
12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, [And] consider you, [saying:] '[Is] this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar and the father of it.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Adam the murderer??
QuoteIt was Adam that brought death (through murder??) unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.
????
Adam didn't lie. The serpent lied. Thus, it was the serpent who lied in order to commit murder, not Adam.
Adam was the one murdered.
Quote from: trettep on March 11, 2009, 04:19:08 AM
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 01:17:12 AM
I'm also interested in that, too Paul.
I would also like to hear your thoughts from a post above as to why it would say in Romans 1:20 that we are without excuse, While Jesus said we know not what we do. I'm not challenging that position, just having trouble wrapping my head around it; maybe your explanation will help me see it clearly...
I'm sorry Doc, but I'm not going to be starting any new threads. I'm going to comment more to existing threads instead of starting new ones at least for now.
Paul
That's Ok, but I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the Romans passage.
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:01:51 AM
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 06:03:34 AM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:01:51 AM
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.
No. He is the image of the one who is to come--Yah's salvation--Y'shuah.
He is the son of God.
Adam....., who is the figure of him that was to come.
--Rom 5
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 07:05:13 AM
QuoteIt was Adam that brought death (through murder??) unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.
????
Adam didn't lie. The serpent lied. Thus, it was the serpent who lied in order to commit murder, not Adam.
Adam was the one murdered.
Hi Molly,
I like what you have posted and I agree with you.
This topic is a very deep and interesting topic....and at the same time I feel that one needs to walk VERY SOFTLY when speaking of Adam for one does not want to be a participator of 'Lashon-Hara'...hebrew for 'evil tongue'....
" But I would remind you that even the archangel Michael when he was contending with the devil in the dispute over the body of Moses did not dare to condemn him with mockery. He simply said, the Lord rebuke you!" (Jude9)
Of course it is fine to ask questions and ponder on these things for I truly believe that the Lord is bringing His sons step by step into having ONE MIND on all things...I just also know that we are not to slander our brethren...
I have 2 thoughts that no one has brought up as to why Adam wasn't deceived ....Spirit/Soul were ONE...and the first time Eve was ever asked a question was by the Serpent....and instead of going to Spirit to get the answer she turned inward to her mind and brought forth the answer (the soulish mind) and as Adam watched HIS BELOVED BRIDE do this act it was then that He too went along with her...for he did not want to be seperated from her.
The dietary laws teach that we are only to eat the fruit of the earth that has the SEED within it...
"And God said—Lo! I have given to you—every herb yielding seed which is on the face of all the land, and every tree wherein is the fruit of a tree yielding seed,—to you, shall it be, for food;" (Gen. 1:29).
So, I share all of this to suggest that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a TREE WITHOUT SEED....and this was the VEHICLE (the Host so to speak) that the serpent used to BE THE SEED that would be eaten/ingested and in so doing would defile/contaminate the first Adam and all those that would come forth from Adam.
Be blessed,
DaughterofDavid
Quote from: trettep on March 11, 2009, 02:05:54 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:01:51 AM
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.
:thumbsup:
Adam the deciever? Then why was the serpent judged by God for decieving Eve??? Adam, for me, didn't decieve anyone . . . he wasn't decieved either . . .but he disobeyed. What he did was a choice. Spirit is not decieved by anyone. Nor can a spirit decieve a spirit. But the mind can be deceived by the spirit easily . . .when the mind is being led by it's own carnality. Because a carnal mind just doesn't have the capacity to comprehend spiritual reality .. . until it's renewed by the Spirit. And even then, we must be vigilant in growing and maturing in the spirit, by keeping our minds in submission to the spiritual truth.
DOD really liked your post. Would like to add my thoughts
that even the LAW was given to condemn this same 'evil' seed
that was sown in the 'earth'. And that from the very outset..
this same 'evil' seed of the serpent is none other than the
serpents seed sown in the man of sin/sinner man
which is a 'vehicle' or" host" of such seed.
And the promised seed the family of Adam
longed and awaited for..is the 'seed' of God..even the
annointed One who would crush the serpents head..destroying
the mind and body manifest of this seed that is at enmity with
God And that such 'promised' seed is the seed of eternal life
and of the Family of God..and is the tree of life's seed
And this same seed of life is full of grace and came to save
life and deliver mankind from death,and to heal and restore
the family of Adam from the effects of the death bringing seed
of the serpent. And it will shortly crush such seed of the serpent
under it's heel
Matthew 25;32 All the nations will be gathered before Him and
he will seperate the people one from another as a shepherd
seperates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on
his right and the goats on his left.-v46
Matthew 13;24 The parable of the weeds....
but while everyone was sleeping,his enemy came and sowed
weeds among the wheat..When the wheat sprouted and formed
heads,then the weeds also appeared......
Both of these parables signify the ongoing enmity of the seed
of the Holy one and the seed of the serpent...and the outcome
of the matter
Here is a perspective I have of the law and why Jesus was so harsh on the pharasees.
We can make such a big deal out of the law to the point the LAW even, becomes our God and our refuge.
And perhaps love never fails because Gods grace is an inherant factor of who he is.
The verse no love is greater than to lay your life down for a friend.
Why wouldn't it say, no greater love than to keep the law of God. Or why doesn't it say no greater love than to lay down your life for christ or for God.
Adam didn't care about the letter of the law, he laid his life down for a friend.
Could it be that one path that one must take to perfection is to disobey the law out of love. Is the law in place so God can punish is, or is the law in place to force us to make a hard choice?
QuoteAdam didn't care about the letter of the law, he laid his life down for a friend.
Could it be that one path that one must take to perfection is to disobey the law out of love.
wow. This is one example of how Adam was the figure of the one who is to come. He laid down his life for a friend.
...the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Great perspective . . . and I agree . . .Adam didn't fall . . .he jumped . . .or . .in your words . . . he didn't fall, he laid down. Either way, it fits into place much better than the idea that because of Adam's choice . . .God had to come up with a plan "b". There never was a plan "b" . . .it's always been plan "A" and will never change. For me to recieve salvation, I must first sin . . .for Christ to manifest as the savior, man had to disobey and reverse the order . . .it's always been about Christ, not about the fall of man . . .nor even about the redemption of man . . .the redemption is only part of who Christ is.
YES Sheila....wheww.....love this that you wrote....
"And that from the very outset..
this same 'evil' seed of the serpent is none other than the
serpents seed sown in the man of sin/sinner man
which is a 'vehicle' or" host" of such seed.
And the promised seed the family of Adam
longed and awaited for..is the 'seed' of God..even the
annointed One who would crush the serpents head..destroying
the mind and body manifest of this seed that is at enmity with
God And that such 'promised' seed is the seed of eternal life
and of the Family of God..and is the tree of life's seed.
****************
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.
This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.
Be blessed!
DoD
:cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words. :thumbsup: Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 05:26:54 PM
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.
This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.
Be blessed!
DoD
so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved?? Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 05:33:33 PM
:cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words. :thumbsup: Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....
He never woke up,
he "died in his sins"
but those who believe will never die.
hmmm,
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 05:36:02 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 05:26:54 PM
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.
This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.
Be blessed!
DoD
so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved?? Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??
Great questions Zeek . . .
For me, I'd say that like Adam, our spirits are not deceived . . .but when Adam "received" the fruit from Eve . .that is where the order was displaced. Adam's sin was two-fold, he disobeyed the Father, and he submitted to Eve. When I allow my mind to lead me, I can be/am deceived. When I choose spirit over flesh, then no, deception doesn't happen because we're walking in discernment . . .
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 05:33:33 PM
:cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words. :thumbsup: Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....
Hi Cardinal!
I have pondered on that much....for Genesis never mentions that Adam woke up....but then goes right into one making it seem like Adam was awake.....
" 2:21 So Yahweh God caused a deep sleep to fall on the man, and he slept,—and he took one of his ribs, and closed up flesh instead thereof.
Gen 2:22 And Yahweh God builded the rib which he had taken from the man, into a woman, and brought her in unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And the man said, This, one, now, is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh! This, one shall be called Woman, for, out of a man, hath this one been taken.
Gen 2:24 For this cause, will a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both of them naked, the man and his wife,—and put not each other to shame."********
A man will leave Father/Mother (Yahweh/El Shaddai).....and cleave unto his wife (soul)....and will become ONE FLESH....
Can you share with me what you see....?? For I have wondered about this for some time...thank you my sister!
DoD
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 05:36:02 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 05:26:54 PM
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.
This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.
Be blessed!
DoD
so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved?? Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??
Great questions Zeek . . .
For me, I'd say that like Adam, our spirits are not deceived . . .but when Adam "received" the fruit from Eve . .that is where the order was displaced. Adam's sin was two-fold, he disobeyed the Father, and he submitted to Eve. When I allow my mind to lead me, I can be/am deceived. When I choose spirit over flesh, then no, deception doesn't happen because we're walking in discernment . . .
but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him??
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 05:33:33 PM
:cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words. :thumbsup: Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....
***********
I am starting to see....WOWOW....even after what I last posted as I was meditating on it...it's as if FIREWORKS of REVELATION are going off....Praise you Father!!
I am just so blessed!
Love you, :HeartThrob:
Dod
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 05:50:19 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 05:36:02 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 05:26:54 PM
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.
This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.
Be blessed!
DoD
so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved?? Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??
Great questions Zeek . . .
For me, I'd say that like Adam, our spirits are not deceived . . .but when Adam "received" the fruit from Eve . .that is where the order was displaced. Adam's sin was two-fold, he disobeyed the Father, and he submitted to Eve. When I allow my mind to lead me, I can be/am deceived. When I choose spirit over flesh, then no, deception doesn't happen because we're walking in discernment . . .
but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him??
It depends on what your identity is . . .if your identity is led by your mind, then yes "You" (soul, spirit, body) can be decieved . . .but if you're identity is led by your spirit, then no, "you" (spirit, soul, body) can not be decieved.
there is no LAW against love..especially 'perfect' love
it will bear the punishment for the proposed offense
imputed to it for it's selfless act of mercy in offering
forgiveness to the true offender.
Just as Christ bore our sins...and just as Our Father in heaven
has been made to serve because of our sins.Truly God has
become the servant of ALL to save us.
Also the Holy Ghost serves us and ministers to us as a helper
Surely they are bearing our burdens of sin for us, and
keep putting up with us in love. Washing us of our filth,
pouring oil and wine in our wounds, bearing the cost for our
healing and salvation. What we are unable to do of ourselves
they in Mercy and LOVE do for us.
And many who follow them do many acts of loose
conduct..and because of this the truth is spoken of abusively.
2Peter 2;1,2[false prophets false teachers secretly introduce
destructive heresys;I ask was not the serpent in the garden a
false prophet with the word of God in his mouth and did he not
secretly introduce a destructive heresy in re to God's nature and
intents toward man?and did not loose conduct/act of
disobediance follow]
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 06:01:06 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 05:50:19 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 05:36:02 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 05:26:54 PM
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.
This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.
Be blessed!
DoD
so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved?? Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??
Great questions Zeek . . .
For me, I'd say that like Adam, our spirits are not deceived . . .but when Adam "received" the fruit from Eve . .that is where the order was displaced. Adam's sin was two-fold, he disobeyed the Father, and he submitted to Eve. When I allow my mind to lead me, I can be/am deceived. When I choose spirit over flesh, then no, deception doesn't happen because we're walking in discernment . . .
but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him??
It depends on what your identity is . . .if your identity is led by your mind, then yes "You" (soul, spirit, body) can be decieved . . .but if you're identity is led by your spirit, then no, "you" (spirit, soul, body) can not be decieved.
Ok, i think I get what you are saying. So you see Adam eating of the fruit as "taking on sin" but not sinning??
:cloud9: Hi DOD.....a few more things to think on....
Psalm 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Compare with what He did to Israel then......Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber , eyes that should not see, and ears that they should not hear:) unto this day.
You don't see and you don't hear when you're in a dead sleep, unless of course, someone SHOUTS at you to wake you up, which is why He comes with a SHOUT.
The woman (Gentiles) was brought forth "out of" the Jews, the same way He brought Eve out of Adam. Both Eve and the Gentiles were then given covenants for their ultimate salvation.
God told the Israelites that He had taken them out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts. He took Eve out of Adam to show him what was in his heart, as she was his "heart of stone".
In a microcosm sort of way, He did the same thing with each one of us, putting our "Adam"/spirit to sleep, with a spirit of forgetfulness, that we could not remember our first estate (one with Him from the foundation of the world). Our "Eve" then was out and exposed for us to see what was in our heart, so that we could later hear the call, to awake in Christ. Blessings....
Psalms 126;1
When the Lord brought back the captives of Zion we were like
men who dreamed. Our mouths were filled with laughter, our
tongues with songs of joy. Then it was said among the nations
the Lord has done great things for them.
The Lord has done great things for us and we are filled with joy.
Restore our fortunes O'LORD like streams in the Negev
Those who sow in tears will reap with songs of joy.
He who goes out weeping carrying seed to sow
will return with songs of joy
carrying sheaves with him
Psalms 73;20 As a dream when one awakes,so when you
arise
O'Lord you will despise them as fantasies
Hi Zeek,
I just wanted to share my thoughts to this question that you asked.....
"but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him?? "
When Adam was put to sleep ....he became ONE FLESH with the woman (soul)....The soul was now the Dominant VOICE....
For I now see that this is why Eve answered the Serpent....She went inward and brought forth earthy wisdom....and answered with REASONING....which is always the enemy of TRUTH ...(REASON is the SEASONING of LEAVEN....of which Yahshua said to be aware of the leaven of the pharisees).
The SEED of CHRIST (the very BREATH of Yahweh) was present within Adam (was in His loins too)....and is indeed the SPIRIT that lights every man. (John 1:9).
I see 2 very distinct ADAM's....both of which have (spirit, soul, and body)....
So the mind of old Adam is ESSENCED with the serpent's seed....the mind of the SECOND ADAM is the MIND OF CHRIST.....
The Mind of Christ cannot be deceived.
This is why there is a 3-fold process in salvation....the spirit...then the soul....then finally the body.
Be blessed Zeek!
DoD
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 06:28:53 PM
Hi Zeek,
I just wanted to share my thoughts to this question that you asked.....
"but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him?? "
When Adam was put to sleep ....he became ONE FLESH with the woman (soul)....The soul was now the Dominant VOICE....
For I now see that this is why Eve answered the Serpent....She went inward and brought forth earthy wisdom....and answered with REASONING....which is always the enemy of TRUTH ...(REASON is the SEASONING of LEAVEN....of which Yahshua said to be aware of the leaven of the pharisees).
The SEED of CHRIST (the very BREATH of Yahweh) was present within Adam (was in His loins too)....and is indeed the SPIRIT that lights every man. (John 1:9).
I see 2 very distinct ADAM's....both of which have (spirit, soul, and body)....
So the mind of old Adam is ESSENCED with the serpent's seed....the mind of the SECOND ADAM is the MIND OF CHRIST.....
The Mind of Christ cannot be deceived.
This is why there is a 3-fold process in salvation....the spirit...then the soul....then finally the body.
Be blessed Zeek!
DoD
trying here to see,
so was the "first Adam" deceived?? did he have the mind of Christ??
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:36:25 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 06:28:53 PM
Hi Zeek,
I just wanted to share my thoughts to this question that you asked.....
"but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him?? "
When Adam was put to sleep ....he became ONE FLESH with the woman (soul)....The soul was now the Dominant VOICE....
For I now see that this is why Eve answered the Serpent....She went inward and brought forth earthy wisdom....and answered with REASONING....which is always the enemy of TRUTH ...(REASON is the SEASONING of LEAVEN....of which Yahshua said to be aware of the leaven of the pharisees).
The SEED of CHRIST (the very BREATH of Yahweh) was present within Adam (was in His loins too)....and is indeed the SPIRIT that lights every man. (John 1:9).
I see 2 very distinct ADAM's....both of which have (spirit, soul, and body)....
So the mind of old Adam is ESSENCED with the serpent's seed....the mind of the SECOND ADAM is the MIND OF CHRIST.....
The Mind of Christ cannot be deceived.
This is why there is a 3-fold process in salvation....the spirit...then the soul....then finally the body.
Be blessed Zeek!
DoD
trying here to see,
so was the "first Adam" deceived?? did he have the mind of Christ??
No the first Adam was not deceived. He had the Spirit of God--the breath of God.
But, I think they are seeing the story as an allegory about the three parts of one man? That is certainly one way to look at it. So they are saying that Adam, the spirit, although not deceived, listened to his wife, the soul.
But we are the bride of Christ.
Hi Cardinal & Sheila,
Just wanted to tell you both that I have been richly blessed by your comments....and have been given lots to chew on....wow....thank you both!
love,
DoD
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:36:25 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 06:28:53 PM
Hi Zeek,
I just wanted to share my thoughts to this question that you asked.....
"but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him?? "
When Adam was put to sleep ....he became ONE FLESH with the woman (soul)....The soul was now the Dominant VOICE....
For I now see that this is why Eve answered the Serpent....She went inward and brought forth earthy wisdom....and answered with REASONING....which is always the enemy of TRUTH ...(REASON is the SEASONING of LEAVEN....of which Yahshua said to be aware of the leaven of the pharisees).
The SEED of CHRIST (the very BREATH of Yahweh) was present within Adam (was in His loins too)....and is indeed the SPIRIT that lights every man. (John 1:9).
I see 2 very distinct ADAM's....both of which have (spirit, soul, and body)....
So the mind of old Adam is ESSENCED with the serpent's seed....the mind of the SECOND ADAM is the MIND OF CHRIST.....
The Mind of Christ cannot be deceived.
This is why there is a 3-fold process in salvation....the spirit...then the soul....then finally the body.
Be blessed Zeek!
DoD
trying here to see,
so was the "first Adam" deceived?? did he have the mind of Christ??
No the first Adam was not deceived. He had the Spirit of God--the breath of God.
But, I think they are seeing the story as an allegory about the three parts of one man? That is certainly one way to look at it. So they are saying that Adam, the spirit, although not deceived, listened to his wife, the soul.
But we are the bride of Christ.
so the first Adam wasnt' deceived, he had the mind of Christ, and then he ate of the fruit. he sinned??
and through him death entered to all??
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:36:25 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 06:28:53 PM
Hi Zeek,
I just wanted to share my thoughts to this question that you asked.....
"but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him?? "
When Adam was put to sleep ....he became ONE FLESH with the woman (soul)....The soul was now the Dominant VOICE....
For I now see that this is why Eve answered the Serpent....She went inward and brought forth earthy wisdom....and answered with REASONING....which is always the enemy of TRUTH ...(REASON is the SEASONING of LEAVEN....of which Yahshua said to be aware of the leaven of the pharisees).
The SEED of CHRIST (the very BREATH of Yahweh) was present within Adam (was in His loins too)....and is indeed the SPIRIT that lights every man. (John 1:9).
I see 2 very distinct ADAM's....both of which have (spirit, soul, and body)....
So the mind of old Adam is ESSENCED with the serpent's seed....the mind of the SECOND ADAM is the MIND OF CHRIST.....
The Mind of Christ cannot be deceived.
This is why there is a 3-fold process in salvation....the spirit...then the soul....then finally the body.
Be blessed Zeek!
DoD
trying here to see,
so was the "first Adam" deceived?? did he have the mind of Christ??
No the first Adam was not deceived. He had the Spirit of God--the breath of God.
But, I think they are seeing the story as an allegory about the three parts of one man? That is certainly one way to look at it. So they are saying that Adam, the spirit, although not deceived, listened to his wife, the soul.
But we are the bride of Christ.
so the first Adam wasnt' deceived, he had the mind of Christ, and then he ate of the fruit. he sinned??
and through him death entered to all??
well, you need to listen to Cardinal, and Sheila, and DOD, too, because they are showing you a different way of looking at it--which I am slowly coming around to.
Right now, I am looking at it in a very simple and literal way. I see three beings involved in the drama. Adam, I see as the son of God, with the breath of God, and the first high priest. He is standing in the midst of the garden (holy of holies) where there are two trees--life and death. When he is given the command by God not to touch one tree, he becomes the first god-Man (scripture called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken). So it is his choice what to do with that commandment--whether or not to follow it in a given situation. He's standing there with Eve, his beloved bride, who does not have breath of God, so he is watching her being deceived by a liar and a murderer. Adam does not speak during this incident (whereas later we will see that Jesus speaks the word of God to satan, and thereby conquers him), but Adam offers the one thing he has to offer to cover Eve's sin, his own blood (the priest does not go into the inner sanctum without blood), and before he eats from the wrong tree, which decision he makes undeceived, his blood is holy and without sin, carrying the seed of Christ--the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 06:36:25 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 06:28:53 PM
Hi Zeek,
I just wanted to share my thoughts to this question that you asked.....
"but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved? when he let his mind lead him?? "
When Adam was put to sleep ....he became ONE FLESH with the woman (soul)....The soul was now the Dominant VOICE....
For I now see that this is why Eve answered the Serpent....She went inward and brought forth earthy wisdom....and answered with REASONING....which is always the enemy of TRUTH ...(REASON is the SEASONING of LEAVEN....of which Yahshua said to be aware of the leaven of the pharisees).
The SEED of CHRIST (the very BREATH of Yahweh) was present within Adam (was in His loins too)....and is indeed the SPIRIT that lights every man. (John 1:9).
I see 2 very distinct ADAM's....both of which have (spirit, soul, and body)....
So the mind of old Adam is ESSENCED with the serpent's seed....the mind of the SECOND ADAM is the MIND OF CHRIST.....
The Mind of Christ cannot be deceived.
This is why there is a 3-fold process in salvation....the spirit...then the soul....then finally the body.
Be blessed Zeek!
DoD
trying here to see,
so was the "first Adam" deceived?? did he have the mind of Christ??
No the first Adam was not deceived. He had the Spirit of God--the breath of God.
But, I think they are seeing the story as an allegory about the three parts of one man? That is certainly one way to look at it. So they are saying that Adam, the spirit, although not deceived, listened to his wife, the soul.
But we are the bride of Christ.
so the first Adam wasnt' deceived, he had the mind of Christ, and then he ate of the fruit. he sinned??
and through him death entered to all??
Hi Zeek!
I want to thank you for asking such GOOD, thoughtful questions....
Honestly, all I can share is what I have come to know and experience WITHIN...and when I say within it is not allegory to me any longer...it is something that the Lord has WROUGHT within me and is very much REALITY and TRUTH.
I can honestly say that there is a very REAL DEATH to the old man....and this happens as we pick up our cross and DENY SELF....and as we cooperate with the Lord in all the various circumstances that He gives to us ...there will finally come a time where The Christ within will say...."It is FINISHED"....
This death to the old adamic mind brings and ending to the DOMINANT voice of the soul....and the Mind of Christ now becomes the dominant voice....
Now what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King.
The Soul is what is the SEAT of the mind, will, heart, and emotions....and with it comes all the memories of the old nature....what I call the RESIDUE....and there is a very real cleansing and drying out of the MARROW of the heartblood of the old adamic spirit. The marrow is where the LIFE of the blood comes from. For we know by scripture that the life is in the blood.
Eventually, as the salvation of the soul is complete....then that is when I believe the FULL DEMPTION will be manifested in the outer-shell ....the BODY.....
Be blessed beloved Zeek! :HeartThrob:
DoD
Quote from: DODI can honestly say that there is a very REAL DEATH to the old man....and this happens as we pick up our cross and DENY SELF....and as we cooperate with the Lord in all the various circumstances that He gives to us ...there will finally come a time where The Christ within will say...."It is FINISHED"....
This death to the old adamic mind brings and ending to the DOMINANT voice of the soul....and the Mind of Christ now becomes the dominant voice....
Now what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King.
I'm wondering if you could see another way for Adam in the garden? I ask this just in attempt to see more clearly what Adam did. He knew Eve would die, he knew he would die--because of that act of chosing death, and he chose death anyway.
What else could he have done to be in the will of God, but what he did? Throw Eve under the bus? lol
I know you are not seeing it the way I am, but if you would indulge me for a minute--what would happen if Adam had acted differently?
He is the first god-Man, the first high priest, the first saviour--
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. --Rev 22
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 07:24:15 PM
Quote from: DODI can honestly say that there is a very REAL DEATH to the old man....and this happens as we pick up our cross and DENY SELF....and as we cooperate with the Lord in all the various circumstances that He gives to us ...there will finally come a time where The Christ within will say...."It is FINISHED"....
This death to the old adamic mind brings and ending to the DOMINANT voice of the soul....and the Mind of Christ now becomes the dominant voice....
Now what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King.
I'm wondering if you could see another way for Adam in the garden? I ask this just in attempt to see more clearly what Adam did. He knew Eve would die, he knew he would die--because of that act of chosing death, and he chose death anyway.
What else could he have done to be in the will of God, but what he did? Throw Eve under the bus? lol
I know you are not seeing it the way I am, but if you would indulge me for a minute--what would happen if Adam had acted differently?
He is the first god-Man, the first high priest, the first saviour--
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
--Rev 22
Hi Molly,
I plead the scripture....'The secret things belong to the Lord and the revealed things belong to us and our children forever" (Deut. 29:29)
I think you have asked a very great question and I have not been given the revelation to this 'secret thing'....all that I know up to this point in my walk with the Lord is what I have shared.
I have a precious brother in Christ....and I have heard him make the case that he believes that the 1st adam and second adam are ONE....and he has given a very weighty argument as to why He see's it this way....
Now, I don't see it that way....but I honor the Lord in my brother's life for this brother has been given glorious revelations and I agree with many of them.
So.....as with Mary I just ponder all these things in my heart and treasure them....and trust that Father will give me my meat in due season.
I will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
That is all I have right now...my sister.
Be blessed beloved Molly! :HeartThrob:
DoD
They didn't see their nakedness when Eve ate . . .it was only after Adam ate. Having bad thoughts are not what defile you . . .having your spirit submit to those bad thougths is what ushers death.
Molly, I just want to also say how I appreciate you sharing your pov in this . . . you're vision is doing so well!! In reading, the only thing I see a little differently is the two trees . . .for me . .one is Life . . .but the other, instead of being death . .is simply law. Law in and of itself isn't a bad thing . .it brings balance in our lives . . .but what ushered in the death, was when they turned "from" life and ate only of the law. Once they ate of the law . . .once they turned from life and personally applied the law . . . they were then removed from the tree of life.
It's what we do everyday still. We take this knowledge of good and evil, and use that knowledge to implicate, inforce, and measure everyone elses lives by it. The hardest thing a parent does when raising their kids is "letting" them get hurt so they'll learn the truth by personal experience instead of by rules and law enforcement. Of course I'm not saying if your child is standing in front of a bus that you should let it hit them so they'll learn . . .there's a balance to everything.
But in the realm of the spirit . . .we take our ability to know what is right and what is wrong . . .we make laws and rules for everyone to live by so they'll not do what is wrong . .but the problem is, that's not the purpose of the knowledge of good and bad . . .the purpose of knowing good from bad is so that the fruit of it will bring balance "in me". It's not supposed to be something that we partake of . . .it just brings balance by "being" there. When we eat of it . . .it makes us unbalanced.
Ok, since you guys are discussion this then I am going to jump in and tell you why I believe Adam wasn't deceived. I don't believe Adam was deceived because He is the Serpent - Not him specifically, but His Disobedient nature is. That nature didnt' exist until at least Adam existed. In other words I don't believe the Devil existed until Adam did. But let me go further and explain. Notice here:
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Why would Eve say to the serpent "WE". If Adam was with Eve when she was saying this then Adam would have been deceived also if the Serpent is someone else. Now was Adam with her?
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Why would God have inspired to put that phrase "with her" into the scriptures? Must have been very important information.
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Notice in that verse that Adam is turning the focus towards Eve the woman that God gave him. To me it is as if Adam is saying "you wanted me to have her. She is what I desired to have and you gave me what I desired".
Notice what God says to Adam:
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Did God give us the words of the Eve that Adam hearkened unto? I believe those words are these:
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So what led me to this investigation was when Jesus called Peter Satan.
Now, I have come to believe that our disobedient nature IS the Serpent and what is called the DEVIL. Who's works (sin) that Jesus came to destroy.
Paul
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 07:57:35 PM
I will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
That is all I have right now...my sister.
Be blessed beloved Molly! :HeartThrob:
DoD
But laying down your life for your bride, even if it goes against the commandment of the Father is still agape??
Sinning is Ok, if done with love??
Thank u all for your perspectives. All fascinating.
Blessings to all
z
I also believe that when Jesus was tempted of the Devil, that the Devil was the disobedient spirit of the man that resided in His flesh. In other words, I don't believe that another person existed with Jesus when He was in the wilderness. I believe the questioning came from the mind of the man inside Jesus that He was able to put down with the Spirit that was in Him. I believe Jesus had to overcome the very flesh of a man that He was given.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered
Jesus was learning!
Paul
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
[quote author=DaughterofDavid link=topic=5017.msg55699#msg55699
The Soul is what is the SEAT of the mind, will, heart, and emotions....and with it comes all the memories of the old nature....what I call the RESIDUE....and there is a very real cleansing and drying out of the MARROW of the heartblood of the old adamic spirit. The marrow is where the LIFE of the blood comes from. For we know by scripture that the life is in the blood.
Eventually, as the salvation of the soul is complete....then that is when I believe the FULL REDEMPTION will be manifested in the outer-shell ....the BODY.....[/quote]
:cloud9: Another good post DOD :thumbsup: . Can I just add a few things? The soul's parts as He has shown me are the mind, will, emotions and DESIRES. These 4 are the same as the rivers that came out of Eden divided, but are made ONE again by Revelation, by being back IN HIM, their covering they had before they fell and were divided.
This is also why there were 4 corners with 4 horns on the altar of sacrifice, to tie us down with cords of love that cannot be broken, making of us a sweet smelling sacrifice unto the Lord. For our ashes, He gives us beauty.
Horn literally means power; His horn is His Spirit. Horn also means ray or point. A crown has points, and in old times the points represented each area the king had dominion over. His Spirit came upon our heads as tongues (a tongue is a ray or point also) of fire.
These 4 sections of the nighttime of our souls, are as watches. Can ye not watch with me one hour? And again, He came to the disciples walking on the water, in the fourth watch. The fourth watch has to do with the desires of the heart, and it is here that He begins to deal with our desires. This ties in with a teaching He gave me about walking on the water, but I will stop here for now. Blessings....
Quote from: NathanIt's what we do everyday still. We take this knowledge of good and evil, and use that knowledge to implicate, inforce, and measure everyone elses lives by it. The hardest thing a parent does when raising their kids is "letting" them get hurt so they'll learn the truth by personal experience instead of by rules and law enforcement. Of course I'm not saying if your child is standing in front of a bus that you should let it hit them so they'll learn . . .there's a balance to everything.
But in the realm of the spirit . . .we take our ability to know what is right and what is wrong . . .we make laws and rules for everyone to live by so they'll not do what is wrong . .but the problem is, that's not the purpose of the knowledge of good and bad . . .the purpose of knowing good from bad is so that the fruit of it will bring balance "in me". It's not supposed to be something that we partake of . . .it just brings balance by "being" there. When we eat of it . . .it makes us unbalanced.
There is good and evil, and there is righteousness.
Two trees. What is the difference?
In a way, we could say that good and evil is a trap.
We see it on here all the time. The temptation is always to say I'm good and you're not (you are evil).
What then is righteousness? Is it the absolute good? Is it always knowing the right thing to do? Is it the will of God? It is somehow beyond, --bigger than,-- good and evil. It is life.
God knows good and evil. But, he is righteous.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.--Gen 3
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 11, 2009, 08:14:46 PM
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
:thumbsup:
QuoteSinning is Ok, if done with love??
Well, we "hear" that Eve Sinned. But where is God saying Eve sinned?
She was in the transgression and I think there is a difference between what we might say is sin and a transgression of the law.
According to the pharasees Jesus broke the LAW, so how did Jesus break the LAW and not sin?
Jesus never hurts anyone. He could have gone around zapping everyone like he did with the fig tree.
Poof! gone!
He never lifts a finger to hurt anyone even in self defense.
So is this scripture referring to Adam??
Ez 28
13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground.
Is 14
12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, [And] consider you, [saying:] '[Is] this the man [/color] who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
brought down to sheol, =death; a man
In Adam all die.
was the deceiver a man??
Quote from: DODI have a precious brother in Christ....and I have heard him make the case that he believes that the 1st adam and second adam are ONE....and he has given a very weighty argument as to why He see's it this way....
Thank you so much for sharing this, DOD. :HeartThrob:
Our Lord Jesus is given pre-eminence in everything, isn't he? He is the chief, the cornerstone, the firstborn of all creation--
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. --Col 1
"the firstborn" [of all creation]
G4416
πρωτοτόκος
prōtotokospro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).
G4413πρῶτος
prōtospro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253;
foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before,
beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.
G5088τίκτω
tiktōtik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses);
to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.
Here's one way to look at it:
Adam/Israel priests
Eve/rest of Israel
destined for death
don't believe in Him===>death
In Adam all die
Last Adam/Jesus/High Priest
Last Eve/Bride of Christ/church
destined for life, life giving Spirit, Believe in HIM, never die.
In Christ all alive.
At the return of Christ, first Adam/Eve done away with (saved through fire)
Second Adam/eve rewarded; and the means for "LIFE for ALL"
just thinking still
blessings
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
--Rom 3
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 08:17:10 PM
[quote author=DaughterofDavid link=topic=5017.msg55699#msg55699
The Soul is what is the SEAT of the mind, will, heart, and emotions....and with it comes all the memories of the old nature....what I call the RESIDUE....and there is a very real cleansing and drying out of the MARROW of the heartblood of the old adamic spirit. The marrow is where the LIFE of the blood comes from. For we know by scripture that the life is in the blood.
Eventually, as the salvation of the soul is complete....then that is when I believe the FULL REDEMPTION will be manifested in the outer-shell ....the BODY.....
:cloud9: Another good post DOD :thumbsup: . Can I just add a few things? The soul's parts as He has shown me are the mind, will, emotions and DESIRES. These 4 are the same as the rivers that came out of Eden divided, but are made ONE again by Revelation, by being back IN HIM, their covering they had before they fell and were divided.
This is also why there were 4 corners with 4 horns on the altar of sacrifice, to tie us down with cords of love that cannot be broken, making of us a sweet smelling sacrifice unto the Lord. For our ashes, He gives us beauty.
Horn literally means power; His horn is His Spirit. Horn also means ray or point. A crown has points, and in old times the points represented each area the king had dominion over. His Spirit came upon our heads as tongues (a tongue is a ray or point also) of fire.
These 4 sections of the nighttime of our souls, are as watches. Can ye not watch with me one hour? And again, He came to the disciples walking on the water, in the fourth watch. The fourth watch has to do with the desires of the heart, and it is here that He begins to deal with our desires. This ties in with a teaching He gave me about walking on the water, but I will stop here for now. Blessings....
[/quote]
*************************************
I LOVE IT....I tell ya, I give my precious Lord all the GLORYYY.....I am sitting here just being SO BLESSED by all that you have just shared.
THANK YOU!
I haven't even read the other comments yet...so I am sure I will be blessed by those too.
Yes, I can see what you are saying about Desires....for when I pray to the Lord and ask for His Kingship and Lordship over my heart ....I ask for HIS DESIRES....His motive....of His Heart to be given to me.
Thank you again beloved Cardinal! :HeartThrob:
DoD
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 08:26:49 PM
brought down to sheol, =death; a man
In Adam all die.
All died in the first Adam.
3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. --Col 3
[When Christ]...
"appears"G5319
φανερόω
phaneroōfan-er-o'-o
From G5318;
to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear,
manifestly declare,
(make) manifest (forth),
shew (self).
Quote from: trettep on March 11, 2009, 08:07:07 PM
Ok, since you guys are discussion this then I am going to jump in and tell you why I believe Adam wasn't deceived. I don't believe Adam was deceived because He is the Serpent - Not him specifically, but His Disobedient nature is. That nature didnt' exist until at least Adam existed. In other words I don't believe the Devil existed until Adam did. But let me go further and explain. Notice here:
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Why would Eve say to the serpent "WE". If Adam was with Eve when she was saying this then Adam would have been deceived also if the Serpent is someone else. Now was Adam with her?
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Why would God have inspired to put that phrase "with her" into the scriptures? Must have been very important information.
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Notice in that verse that Adam is turning the focus towards Eve the woman that God gave him. To me it is as if Adam is saying "you wanted me to have her. She is what I desired to have and you gave me what I desired".
Notice what God says to Adam:
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Did God give us the words of the Eve that Adam hearkened unto? I believe those words are these:
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So what led me to this investigation was when Jesus called Peter Satan.
Now, I have come to believe that our disobedient nature IS the Serpent and what is called the DEVIL. Who's works (sin) that Jesus came to destroy.
Paul
Yes, that's more or less the way I see it too, Paul.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[he] "hath declared" [him.]
G1834
ἐξηγέομαι
exēgeomai
ex-ayg-eh'-om-ahee
From G1537 and G2233; to consider out (aloud), that is, rehearse, unfold: - declare, tell.
G1537
ἐκ, ἐξ
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 08:26:49 PM
brought down to sheol, =death; a man
In Adam all die.
All died in the first Adam.
3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
--Col 3
[When Christ]..."appears"
G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).
so what does he who
believes in HIM will never die mean to you??
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 09:21:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 08:26:49 PM
brought down to sheol, =death; a man
In Adam all die.
All died in the first Adam.
3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
--Col 3
[When Christ]..."appears"
G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).
so what does he who believes in HIM will never die mean to you??
Exactly what it says. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Zeek on March 11, 2009, 08:26:49 PM
So is this scripture referring to Adam??
Ez 28
13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground.
Is 14
12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, [And] consider you, [saying:] '[Is] this the man [/color] who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
brought down to sheol, =death; a man
In Adam all die.
was the deceiver a man??
Hmm. Interesting, Zeek. I'd never thought about the implications of those passages in this context.
The precious stones represent the works of God. All the references of casting/ cutting down to the earth refer to the fall from the heavenly realm; of taking on the life of the flesh rather than the life of God. The Adamic nature (flesh) is the antichrist and the adversary!
(Just thinking out loud here.) You really got me thinking now, Z.
Lucifer was Adam for me . . .so yeah, this is all a picture of where man was in the beginning when he was first created . . .and what his bad choices did that brought him to where we are now . . .which is why Christ came, to reverse the curse . .sin is just a symptom of the misalignment of man.
Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat . . . if that isn't a picture of the mission of God!!!
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 09:03:41 PM
Yes, I can see what you are saying about Desires....for when I pray to the Lord and ask for His Kingship and Lordship over my heart ....I ask for HIS DESIRES....His motive....of His Heart to be given to me.
:cloud9: Yep, that's the key. The desire of all nations (individuals) shall come, and IS coming now. When He comes, His reward is with Him. Eve was slain by her desire, which she reasoned was a good thing; Eve DESIRED the PLEASANT fruit as something to make one wise. Contrast this with the righteous actions of Daniel who said he would eat no PLEASANT bread. Blessings...
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:28:04 PM
Lucifer was Adam for me . . .so yeah, this is all a picture of where man was in the beginning when he was first created . . .and what his bad choices did that brought him to where we are now . . .which is why Christ came, to reverse the curse . .sin is just a symptom of the misalignment of man.
Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat . . . if that isn't a picture of the mission of God!!!
So satan did this?
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it,
in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.--Rom 8
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 09:17:33 PM
Yes, that's more or less the way I see it too, Paul.
I knew we would find agreement on something at some point. :Sparkletooth:
Paul
:cloud9: Amen, Zeek, Doc and Nathan. When I first came to the Lord He gave me a dream/vision I was not to understand for years. I had fallen asleep in the Word, and I saw in the Spirit, large jewels in gold fittings in rows within my chest. Just then the Lord spoke to me, "RESTORATION BACK TO THE ANOINTED CHERUB THAT COVERETH."
I think this is totality of restoring fallen man back to being one with THE High Priest, in the garden of God which we are, all in one sentence. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:28:04 PM
Lucifer was Adam for me . . .so yeah, this is all a picture of where man was in the beginning when he was first created . . .and what his bad choices did that brought him to where we are now . . .which is why Christ came, to reverse the curse . .sin is just a symptom of the misalignment of man.
Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat . . . if that isn't a picture of the mission of God!!!
So satan did this?
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Rom 8
Satan - definition - Adversary
My mind - always at emnity against God - Adversary.
My body is the earth that is bound by my mind's conformity. I don't drink because it's breaking a law. I don't swear because it's breaking the law. My body is bound by the restrictions of my mind.
Now, the argument will be . . .so what is freedom then? drinking, swearing and killing? No, freedom is not having to worry about observing the law because being in Christ, means I'm already living within the law tht matters. Love doesn't destroy me (abusive drinking) love doesn't destroy others emotions (language) love doesn't destroy others bodily (killing).
Love removes me from my life of conformity, and brings me into his marvelous light . . . my body doesn't decay by it's own choice . . .but death comes by my minds bad choices . . .as well as the first Adam's choice as well.
Satan as an entity, is not the one stirring up the evil in the land . .it's the people who've let their selves be ruler of their minds . . .which will always lead to death and destruction.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 09:38:16 PM
:cloud9: Amen, Zeek, Doc and Nathan. When I first came to the Lord He gave me a dream/vision I was not to understand for years. I had fallen asleep in the Word, and I saw in the Spirit, large jewels in gold fittings in rows within my chest. Just then the Lord spoke to me, "RESTORATION BACK TO THE ANOINTED CHERUBIM THAT COVERETH."
I think this is totality of restoring fallen man back to being one with THE High Priest, in the garden of God which we are, all in one sentence. Blessings....
If Adam hadn't participated with Eve--and maybe you think that is impossible, but for the sake of argument, let's just say it was possible--would all have died
in Adam? Is dying in Adam a type of covering?
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:42:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:28:04 PM
Lucifer was Adam for me . . .so yeah, this is all a picture of where man was in the beginning when he was first created . . .and what his bad choices did that brought him to where we are now . . .which is why Christ came, to reverse the curse . .sin is just a symptom of the misalignment of man.
Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat . . . if that isn't a picture of the mission of God!!!
So satan did this?
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Rom 8
Satan - definition - Adversary
My mind - always at emnity against God - Adversary.
My body is the earth that is bound by my mind's conformity. I don't drink because it's breaking a law. I don't swear because it's breaking the law. My body is bound by the restrictions of my mind.
Now, the argument will be . . .so what is freedom then? drinking, swearing and killing? No, freedom is not having to worry about observing the law because being in Christ, means I'm already living within the law tht matters. Love doesn't destroy me (abusive drinking) love doesn't destroy others emotions (language) love doesn't destroy others bodily (killing).
Love removes me from my life of conformity, and brings me into his marvelous light . . . my body doesn't decay by it's own choice . . .but death comes by my minds bad choices . . .as well as the first Adam's choice as well.
Satan as an entity, is not the one stirring up the evil in the land . .it's the people who've let their selves be ruler of their minds . . .which will always lead to death and destruction.
Yes, I understand, but you didn't answer my question.
Who is the one whose will subjected the creation [creature] to vanity in hope that the creation itself would be liberated from bondage into the glorious freedom of the children of God? We know that satan was in the garden, and he wanted Eve dead, and he wanted to get to Adam through Eve, so he wanted Adam dead, too. But, the final decision was up to Adam--because he was not deceived.
The earth was given to Adam to rule over . .to have dominion over . . as Adam goes, so goes that which was put "under" him.
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:51:09 PM
The earth was given to Adam to rule over . .to have dominion over . . as Adam goes, so goes that which was put "under" him.
So are you saying it was Adam's will?
It was Adam's will to submit to Eve . . . I can't say Adam knew of the consquences that would follow, but yeah, he's responsible for it.
Well this is interesting. I just looked up serpent in Strong's:
H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
"The serpent was more crafty than "any of the other animals in the garden"". The way we read that, we assume that the serpent was an "animal".
The whisper of the flesh. Learning by experience (the tree of knowledge of good and evil). Hmmm.
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:28:04 PM
Lucifer was Adam for me . . .so yeah, this is all a picture of where man was in the beginning when he was first created . . .and what his bad choices did that brought him to where we are now . . .which is why Christ came, to reverse the curse . .sin is just a symptom of the misalignment of man.
Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat . . . if that isn't a picture of the mission of God!!!
So satan did this?
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Rom 8
No, no Molly. That was God subjecting it in hope, not Adam.
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 10:05:56 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:28:04 PM
Lucifer was Adam for me . . .so yeah, this is all a picture of where man was in the beginning when he was first created . . .and what his bad choices did that brought him to where we are now . . .which is why Christ came, to reverse the curse . .sin is just a symptom of the misalignment of man.
Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat . . . if that isn't a picture of the mission of God!!!
So satan did this?
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Rom 8
No, no Molly. That was God subjecting it in hope, not Adam.
well, yes, of course it was God.
Then, why would one say it was Lucifer?
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:57:34 PM
It was Adam's will to submit to Eve . . . I can't say Adam knew of the consquences that would follow, but yeah, he's responsible for it.
Of course he knew the consequences.
That's what --not deceived--means.
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:42:43 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 09:38:16 PM
:cloud9: Amen, Zeek, Doc and Nathan. When I first came to the Lord He gave me a dream/vision I was not to understand for years. I had fallen asleep in the Word, and I saw in the Spirit, large jewels in gold fittings in rows within my chest. Just then the Lord spoke to me, "RESTORATION BACK TO THE ANOINTED CHERUBIM THAT COVERETH."
I think this is totality of restoring fallen man back to being one with THE High Priest, in the garden of God which we are, all in one sentence. Blessings....
If Adam hadn't participated with Eve--and maybe you think that is impossible, but for the sake of argument, let's just say it was possible--would all have died in Adam? Is dying in Adam a type of covering?
:cloud9: Yes, but he's a false covering, though, because our true covering is, of course, Christ Jesus. All of the deliverance we go thru if we are pressing in for sanctification of this temple is removing those things of the false covering produced by the union of the carnal mind (spirit/Adam) and the flesh (Eve). Blessings....
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
Well this is interesting. I just looked up serpent in Strong's:
H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
"The serpent was more crafty than "any of the other animals in the garden"". The way we read that, we assume that the serpent was an "animal".
The whisper of the flesh. Learning by experience (the tree of knowledge of good and evil). Hmmm.
Hi Doc!
I posted a little earlier about how I believe the Serpent was able contaminate/defile Adam....
Yahweh told Adam and Eve in Gen 1:29...."And God said—Lo! I have given to you—every herb yielding seed which is on the face of all the land,
and every tree wherein is the fruit of a tree yielding seed,—to you,
shall it be, for food;"
We also learn in Gen 2:16-17 that ..."And Yahweh God laid command on the man, saying,—Of every tree of the garden, thou mayest eat;
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it,—for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shelf die."
So this to me points to the fact that the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL was a tree WITHOUT SEED.
This then explains how the serpent used this VEHICLE (or the Host) of this particular tree that did not have any seed so that it would BE THE SEED that Eve & Adam ate/ingested.....and in so doing the mind of Adam was ESSENCED with the WHISPER of the Serpent.
Adam himself was not guilty/responsible for man's futility....for Romans 8:20 clearly say's......"or, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject—not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope".
Be blessed Doc!
DoD
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 10:23:56 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 09:42:43 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 09:38:16 PM
:cloud9: Amen, Zeek, Doc and Nathan. When I first came to the Lord He gave me a dream/vision I was not to understand for years. I had fallen asleep in the Word, and I saw in the Spirit, large jewels in gold fittings in rows within my chest. Just then the Lord spoke to me, "RESTORATION BACK TO THE ANOINTED CHERUBIM THAT COVERETH."
I think this is totality of restoring fallen man back to being one with THE High Priest, in the garden of God which we are, all in one sentence. Blessings....
If Adam hadn't participated with Eve--and maybe you think that is impossible, but for the sake of argument, let's just say it was possible--would all have died in Adam? Is dying in Adam a type of covering?
:cloud9: Yes, but he's a false covering, though, because our true covering is, of course, Christ Jesus. All of the deliverance we go thru if we are pressing in for sanctification of this temple is removing those things of the false covering produced by the union of the carnal mind (spirit/Adam) and the flesh (Eve). Blessings....
Where does it talk about a false covering in the Bible? Are you thinking of nakedness as a type of false covering? So the covering cherub--covered as best he could but with nakedness? And what is that but the unrealized [dead] seed, or the subjection of the seed to vanity?
God himself gave them skin before they left the garden...
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 10:27:10 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
Well this is interesting. I just looked up serpent in Strong's:
H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
"The serpent was more crafty than "any of the other animals in the garden"". The way we read that, we assume that the serpent was an "animal".
The whisper of the flesh. Learning by experience (the tree of knowledge of good and evil). Hmmm.
Hi Doc!
I posted a little earlier about how I believe the Serpent was able contaminate/defile Adam....
Yahweh told Adam and Eve in Gen 1:29...."And God said—Lo! I have given to you—every herb yielding seed which is on the face of all the land, and every tree wherein is the fruit of a tree yielding seed,—to you, shall it be, for food;"
We also learn in Gen 2:16-17 that ..."And Yahweh God laid command on the man, saying,—Of every tree of the garden, thou mayest eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it,—for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shelf die."
So this to me points to the fact that the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL was a tree WITHOUT SEED.
This then explains how the serpent used this VEHICLE (or the Host) of this particular tree that did not have any seed so that it would BE THE SEED that Eve & Adam ate/ingested.....and in so doing the mind of Adam was ESSENCED with the WHISPER of the Serpent.
Adam himself was not guilty/responsible for man's futility....for Romans 8:20 clearly say's......"or, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject—not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope".
Be blessed Doc!
DoD
Oh, right!... I think that makes sense to me with the whole seed thing based on what Father is showing me right now. It wasn't Adam
per se, but the adversarial seed sown in his flesh.
Thanks for that.
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 10:29:16 PM
Where does it talk about a false covering in the Bible? Are you thinking of nakedness as a type of false covering? So the covering cherub--covered as best he could but with nakedness? And what is that but the unrealized [dead] seed, or the subjection of the seed to vanity?
God himself gave them skin before they left the garden...
:cloud9: Hi.....
Isa 25:7 - And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 30:1 - Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
There are many words in Hebrew that are translated covering. Interestingly, one of them means a "saddle". He calls us His goodly horses in the battle.
As a funny side note, I was on a Daniel fast a few years back (veggies, grains and water). I asked Him one day if I could use honey to sweeten my oatmeal and He said yes. Feeling empowered here, I asked Him if I could have an apple a day. He said yes. A little farther down the road (this was a 2 month fast) I asked Him if I could have an orange and He said no.
I was puzzling over this, why could I have an apple and not an orange? Then He dropped it into my spirit. He was feeding me like you would a horse! Blessings....
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 10:41:29 PM
Quote from: DaughterofDavid on March 11, 2009, 10:27:10 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
Well this is interesting. I just looked up serpent in Strong's:
H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
"The serpent was more crafty than "any of the other animals in the garden"". The way we read that, we assume that the serpent was an "animal".
The whisper of the flesh. Learning by experience (the tree of knowledge of good and evil). Hmmm.
Hi Doc!
I posted a little earlier about how I believe the Serpent was able contaminate/defile Adam....
Yahweh told Adam and Eve in Gen 1:29...."And God said—Lo! I have given to you—every herb yielding seed which is on the face of all the land, and every tree wherein is the fruit of a tree yielding seed,—to you, shall it be, for food;"
We also learn in Gen 2:16-17 that ..."And Yahweh God laid command on the man, saying,—Of every tree of the garden, thou mayest eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it,—for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shelf die."
So this to me points to the fact that the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL was a tree WITHOUT SEED.
This then explains how the serpent used this VEHICLE (or the Host) of this particular tree that did not have any seed so that it would BE THE SEED that Eve & Adam ate/ingested.....and in so doing the mind of Adam was ESSENCED with the WHISPER of the Serpent.
Adam himself was not guilty/responsible for man's futility....for Romans 8:20 clearly say's......"or, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject—not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope".
Be blessed Doc!
DoD
Oh, right!... I think that makes sense to me with the whole seed thing based on what Father is showing me right now. It wasn't Adam per se, but the adversarial seed sown in his flesh.
Thanks for that.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Blessings Doc,
DoD
lol!! I liken you,darling to a mare :laughing7:
way to go DOD :thumbsup:
I was thinking of the GENUINE COVERING CHERUB and
the AT ONE MENT COVER that worked atonement
Sheila
Quote from: Cardinal on March 11, 2009, 10:48:42 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2009, 10:29:16 PM
Where does it talk about a false covering in the Bible? Are you thinking of nakedness as a type of false covering? So the covering cherub--covered as best he could but with nakedness? And what is that but the unrealized [dead] seed, or the subjection of the seed to vanity?
God himself gave them skin before they left the garden...
:cloud9: Hi.....
Isa 25:7 - And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 30:1 - Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
There are many words in Hebrew that are translated covering. Interestingly, one of them means a "saddle". He calls us His goodly horses in the battle.
As a funny side note, I was on a Daniel fast a few years back (veggies, grains and water). I asked Him one day if I could use honey to sweeten my oatmeal and He said yes. Feeling empowered here, I asked Him if I could have an apple a day. He said yes. A little farther down the road (this was a 2 month fast) I asked Him if I could have an orange and He said no.
I was puzzling over this, why could I have an apple and not an orange? Then He dropped it into my spirit. He was feeding me like you would a horse! Blessings....
This is really interesting. Hence all the references to bridles and reins?
Does spirit ride us like a horse? And, the wrong spirit is the wrong 'covering'?
Woe to the rebellious children... " that cover"H5258
נסך
nâsaknaw-sak'
A primitive root;
to pour out, especially
a libation, or
to cast (metal); by analogy
to anoint a king: - cover, melt, offer, (cause to) pour (out), set (up).
"with a covering"H4541
מסּכה
massêkâhmas-say-kaw'
From H5258; properly
a pouring over, that is,
fusion of metal (especially
a cast image); by implication a libation, that is, league; concretely a coverlet (as if poured out): - covering, molten (image),
vail.but not of my spirit...We are to be only covered [ridden] by his spirit. Not by idols of our own design or evil spirits?
Ah--he has put us out here naked--and now we are given a choice of covering--life or death.
But He has made the choice for us..our covenant with death
will be annulled!
Quote from: sheila on March 12, 2009, 12:33:22 AM
But He has made the choice for us..our covenant with death
will be annulled!
well, yes, but if it goes that way, at what cost?
14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. --Isa 28
what cost,indeed,Molly
surely you will not die..for God knows in the day you eat of it,your eyes shall be opened.......and both of their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked...and they covered themselves with leaves....
as in Adam all die..so too, in Christ all shall live
Quote from: sheila on March 12, 2009, 12:43:52 AM
what cost,indeed,Molly
surely you will not die..for God knows in the day you eat of it,your eyes shall be opened.......and both of their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked...and they covered themselves with leaves....
as in Adam all die..so too, in Christ all shall live
I'm just sayin'
Grab onto Jesus and hold on with both hands...
Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
AMEN! Molly!
:cloud9: Yes, Molly, He "rides" us like a horse. He's coming back on a white horse (redeemed soul) you know. :winkgrin:
Thanks Sheila, a mare I be..... as long as I'm not a gelding, it's ALL good :laughing7:
QuoteNow what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King.
Hi DOD good posts sister, may I just add that after the soul dies that we then see the progression of this death applied to the spirit, for the earth earth man is also composed of spirit soul and body and every inch of him must die.
QuoteI will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
For myself here I do not believe Adam laid down his life for Eve or died to self.
Eve is the expression of the soul.
And one must LOSE their soul in order to save it.
Adam by following his soul/Eve never lost his soul.
If Adam had of been obedient to God's word and lost his soul he then would have saved it.
Which would have been the true laying down of his life.
Quote from: pneuma on March 12, 2009, 02:17:37 PM
QuoteNow what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King.
Hi DOD good posts sister, may I just add that after the soul dies that we then see the progression of this death applied to the spirit, for the earth earth man is also composed of spirit soul and body and every inch of him must die.
QuoteI will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
For myself here I do not believe Adam laid down his life for Eve or died to self.
Eve is the expression of the soul.
And one must LOSE their soul in order to save it.
Adam by following his soul/Eve never lost his soul.
If Adam had of been obedient to God's word and lost his soul he then would have saved it.
Which would have been the true laying down of his life.
interesting Scott
so, he/Adam willfully sinned, not deceived but by active rebellion; knowing it would be a "marriage" with death. So, basically, "Adam" (our spirit) can choose to "save his soul" (Eve) or die to it (and hence live unto the SPIRIT), with our spirit testifying with HIS that we are a child of God.
Is that what u are saying??
Some of the conclusions here are all over the place. Maybe this will help:
In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam and the Rib was Adam.
Paul
and so Eve, who is the "soul" is representative of our seat of emotions, our iterpretation of the world based on our sensory perceptions, and combined with the "serpent", crafty guy; is deceived to interpret life through the senses (carnal mind). So is the carnal mind, the "soul"??
A friend of mine wrote this on another forum, I don't think she'll mind if i share it:
"I see Adam as that deeper part of our mind, the subconscious which is "the knowing"....
Now from what I understand, the subconscious does not rationalize...it takes what is given to it after it has been filtered through the conscious mind....it doesn't question what it is given...
".... she (the conscious mind) took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband (the subconscious mind) who was with her, and he ate. Gen 3:6
he doesn't question, Adam just takes what Eve gives her and eats...
Now, if then in a symbolic way we can see Eve as the conscious mind we can begin to see why it is that she was deceived, yet Adam was not...
the conscious mind takes in information according to the senses...it then formulates beliefs, ideas, thoughts according to those senses....the conscious mind is prone to allowing the physical world determine what is truth...
the subconscious mind, I believe, has a sense of being and knowing that is deeply connected to spirit...it (adam) is the witness to the conscious mind (eve)...it (adam) doesn't judge one way or the other, but experiences and co-operates along with the conscious mind (eve) according to what the conscious mind believes....
this is why I see that the serpent spoke specifically with Eve...she is the only one who is able to take in information according to the senses...she is the "filter" so to speak...
the serpent is said to be "subtle"....meaning shrewd, sensible, prudent
sensible means: Capable of being perceived by the senses
prudent means: Sagacious (of quick sense perceptions) in adapting means to ends; circumspect (to look about one's self) in action
this all has to do with the senses....by which we experience the outside world...
and isn't it the senses which beguile us?? isn't it the senses which tempt us? which trigger the lusts within our own flesh...
eg...you're on a diet but you smell that yummy pizza which tastes so good but which you don't need for nutrition because you just ate a healthy salad...your senses trick you into eating it...
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:14
what I am saying here is that the subconscious cannot be tempted or deceived because it simply takes in that which it is given...
there are many who believe that the subconscious has the faith of a child...it goes along with whatever you tell it....and therein lies the rub...tell it lies, it goes along with the lies and so man, who houses both the conscious and subconscious, experiences the consequences of whatever his conscious mind feeds to his subconscious....
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
(oh boy, if we could only get our conscious minds to shut up... )
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
(if we would stop allowing the physical sensual world to teach the conscious mind of truth we would not be feeding the subconscious mind with the forbidden fruit of duality....to be still and know that I God...to stop being a slave to our thoughts which have previously taken authority over us, we in Christ are to take authority over our thoughts...)
For Adam (the subconscious where the essence of being resides) was formed first,
then Eve (the conscious mind where thoughts are formed and through which ideas spring forth into the physical world);
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
this childbearing I believe to be the birth of thought in the womb of the conscious mind which manifests into expression...this is where we are to be "self-controlled" and thinking thoughts of faith, love and holiness...
the subconscious and conscious cannot be separated and one depends on the other just as in a true marraige...
so as any true husband should, adam (the subconscious) supports his wife (the conscious) in whatever she believes, and in fact does everything he can to fulfill her desires...whether they be productive or non-productive
so what I see is that, when the conscious mind begins to perceive the illusionary element to the physical world, and that what is going on in our minds is being projected outwards, we begin to take care of what we are birthing/thinking....if we can be saved through childbearing...we can be saved through changing our minds, (repenting) and through birthing Christed thoughts into the world rather than the thoughts seeded by the serpent (thoughts seeded by the sensual temptations of the physical world)....
interestingly "cherub" means imaginary thing and in fact there is some indication in the Hebrew traditions that it is connected to the serpent....could this then be connected to "vain imaginations"....if the cherubs are guarding eden, we could say our vain imaginations are guarding us from achieving that higher state of consciousness which is eden....
in my study of "image and likeness of God" months ago I saw that in one sense what we see when we look at ourselves is imaginary...a phantam, an illusion....only an "image" of Elohim...the essense of who we are lies not in what we can perceive with the senses, but is deeper....the essence of who we are lies in the subconscious...the witness, the knowing....and this cannot be deceived...it has known throughout the ages the truth, though hidden...and the experience of the conscious mind serves to lead man back to this deeper knowing that Laren pointed out...
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God (the subconscious part of our minds), they (the conscious part of our minds) glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
so as Laren showed the "knowing God" comes first...that's Adam, the subconscious....then the conscious mind is deceived by the senses, turns the truth of God into a lie...takes God who is within and perceives Him as without....and the subconscious supports this belief to the extent that man ACTS out in this way....
what if the conscious mind is personified as the "Lord"...and what if in conjunction to that, the subconscious contains the I AM essence...then wouldn't so many verses make more sense with regards to the Lord commanding deaths of woman and children, sending evil spirits, creating calamity....isn't it man, deceived of our essence, creating the chaos in the world through the thoughts we birth in our conscious mind???
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (in the conscious mind) do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7
but in the subconscious, there is no duality, no turning of shadow, no deception....everything is what it is....everything is witnessed and experienced...and somewhere along the way the woman (the conscious mind) gets tired of playing the harlot with the world, turns within to see her true husband who has been there all along unperceived by the veil between the subconscious and the conscious in the marriage chamber (man's head), merges and mates with him and begins to birth that which will save her....thoughts that have been taken captive to Christ....
hope that all made sense somehow....
just one of many levels of meaning I see in these scriptures,
peace and love,"
Quote from: Zeek on March 12, 2009, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 12, 2009, 02:17:37 PM
QuoteNow what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King.
Hi DOD good posts sister, may I just add that after the soul dies that we then see the progression of this death applied to the spirit, for the earth earth man is also composed of spirit soul and body and every inch of him must die.
QuoteI will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
For myself here I do not believe Adam laid down his life for Eve or died to self.
Eve is the expression of the soul.
And one must LOSE their soul in order to save it.
Adam by following his soul/Eve never lost his soul.
If Adam had of been obedient to God's word and lost his soul he then would have saved it.
Which would have been the true laying down of his life.
interesting Scott
so, he/Adam willfully sinned, not deceived but by active rebellion; knowing it would be a "marriage" with death. So, basically, "Adam" (our spirit) can choose to "save his soul" (Eve) or die to it (and hence live unto the SPIRIT), with our spirit testifying with HIS that we are a child of God.
Is that what u are saying??
Hi Zeek, yes Adam wilfully sinned, thus he sinned a sin unto death, there is a sin that is unto death and sin that is NOT unto death.
Wilful disobedience is a sin unto death. And we all know this because Adam entered into DEATH after his disobedience.
God sets before us the choice of life or death, obedience is life to the spirit, soul and body of man and disobedience is the death of spirit, soul and body of man.
The old man Adam is encased in death/disobedience and in order for it to be saved every part must come into obedience to the Father. Thus God disallows the covenant of death that man has made and brings us forth from death unto life.
Quote from: Zeek on March 12, 2009, 02:38:40 PM
A friend of mine wrote this on another forum, I don't think she'll mind if i share it:
"I see Adam as that deeper part of our mind, the subconscious which is "the knowing"....
Now from what I understand, the subconscious does not rationalize...it takes what is given to it after it has been filtered through the conscious mind....it doesn't question what it is given...
".... she (the conscious mind) took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband (the subconscious mind) who was with her, and he ate. Gen 3:6
he doesn't question, Adam just takes what Eve gives her and eats...
Now, if then in a symbolic way we can see Eve as the conscious mind we can begin to see why it is that she was deceived, yet Adam was not...
the conscious mind takes in information according to the senses...it then formulates beliefs, ideas, thoughts according to those senses....the conscious mind is prone to allowing the physical world determine what is truth...
the subconscious mind, I believe, has a sense of being and knowing that is deeply connected to spirit...it (adam) is the witness to the conscious mind (eve)...it (adam) doesn't judge one way or the other, but experiences and co-operates along with the conscious mind (eve) according to what the conscious mind believes....
this is why I see that the serpent spoke specifically with Eve...she is the only one who is able to take in information according to the senses...she is the "filter" so to speak...
the serpent is said to be "subtle"....meaning shrewd, sensible, prudent
sensible means: Capable of being perceived by the senses
prudent means: Sagacious (of quick sense perceptions) in adapting means to ends; circumspect (to look about one's self) in action
this all has to do with the senses....by which we experience the outside world...
and isn't it the senses which beguile us?? isn't it the senses which tempt us? which trigger the lusts within our own flesh...
eg...you're on a diet but you smell that yummy pizza which tastes so good but which you don't need for nutrition because you just ate a healthy salad...your senses trick you into eating it...
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:14
what I am saying here is that the subconscious cannot be tempted or deceived because it simply takes in that which it is given...
there are many who believe that the subconscious has the faith of a child...it goes along with whatever you tell it....and therein lies the rub...tell it lies, it goes along with the lies and so man, who houses both the conscious and subconscious, experiences the consequences of whatever his conscious mind feeds to his subconscious....
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
(oh boy, if we could only get our conscious minds to shut up... )
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
(if we would stop allowing the physical sensual world to teach the conscious mind of truth we would not be feeding the subconscious mind with the forbidden fruit of duality....to be still and know that I God...to stop being a slave to our thoughts which have previously taken authority over us, we in Christ are to take authority over our thoughts...)
For Adam (the subconscious where the essence of being resides) was formed first,
then Eve (the conscious mind where thoughts are formed and through which ideas spring forth into the physical world);
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
this childbearing I believe to be the birth of thought in the womb of the conscious mind which manifests into expression...this is where we are to be "self-controlled" and thinking thoughts of faith, love and holiness...
the subconscious and conscious cannot be separated and one depends on the other just as in a true marraige...
so as any true husband should, adam (the subconscious) supports his wife (the conscious) in whatever she believes, and in fact does everything he can to fulfill her desires...whether they be productive or non-productive
so what I see is that, when the conscious mind begins to perceive the illusionary element to the physical world, and that what is going on in our minds is being projected outwards, we begin to take care of what we are birthing/thinking....if we can be saved through childbearing...we can be saved through changing our minds, (repenting) and through birthing Christed thoughts into the world rather than the thoughts seeded by the serpent (thoughts seeded by the sensual temptations of the physical world)....
interestingly "cherub" means imaginary thing and in fact there is some indication in the Hebrew traditions that it is connected to the serpent....could this then be connected to "vain imaginations"....if the cherubs are guarding eden, we could say our vain imaginations are guarding us from achieving that higher state of consciousness which is eden....
in my study of "image and likeness of God" months ago I saw that in one sense what we see when we look at ourselves is imaginary...a phantam, an illusion....only an "image" of Elohim...the essense of who we are lies not in what we can perceive with the senses, but is deeper....the essence of who we are lies in the subconscious...the witness, the knowing....and this cannot be deceived...it has known throughout the ages the truth, though hidden...and the experience of the conscious mind serves to lead man back to this deeper knowing that Laren pointed out...
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God (the subconscious part of our minds), they (the conscious part of our minds) glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
so as Laren showed the "knowing God" comes first...that's Adam, the subconscious....then the conscious mind is deceived by the senses, turns the truth of God into a lie...takes God who is within and perceives Him as without....and the subconscious supports this belief to the extent that man ACTS out in this way....
what if the conscious mind is personified as the "Lord"...and what if in conjunction to that, the subconscious contains the I AM essence...then wouldn't so many verses make more sense with regards to the Lord commanding deaths of woman and children, sending evil spirits, creating calamity....isn't it man, deceived of our essence, creating the chaos in the world through the thoughts we birth in our conscious mind???
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (in the conscious mind) do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7
but in the subconscious, there is no duality, no turning of shadow, no deception....everything is what it is....everything is witnessed and experienced...and somewhere along the way the woman (the conscious mind) gets tired of playing the harlot with the world, turns within to see her true husband who has been there all along unperceived by the veil between the subconscious and the conscious in the marriage chamber (man's head), merges and mates with him and begins to birth that which will save her....thoughts that have been taken captive to Christ....
hope that all made sense somehow....
just one of many levels of meaning I see in these scriptures,
peace and love,"
I enjoyed that bro, thanks for sharing, many, many layers to the onion of Gods word.
An article some might find helpful:
"Divine Alchemy - The Secret to Immortality
Revelation Teaching Advancing the Kingdom Age and the Immortal Son
This was written December 14th with a sense of great urgency and added in a very rough form. My apologies for spelling or grammatical errors!
DIVINE ALCHEMY
The Secret of Immortality
December 14, 2007 - Revised December 24, 2007
Dear friends,
To understand this article it is necessary for the reader to understand the writers viewpoint. Therefore for the sake of time, please consider that the creation accounts in Genesis 1 & 2 are parables.
When God refers to the word "Male" in the book of Genesis, I believe He is referring to the Spirit in all men. Therefore "Adam" represents the Spirit of God in all mankind. When "Spirit" is recorded in scripture the language uses a masculine noun.
Conversely when God uses the term "Female" in the book of Genesis I believe He is referring to the Soul in all men. Therefore "Eve" represents the Soul in all mankind. "Soul" is recorded in scripture the language uses a feminine noun.
Spirit is God. Soul is limited to the mind of man.
Genesis 1 is an ideal account of creation. It is creation at its absolute best. God and man are one. They walked together, talked together; they are in harmony and in complete union. They are one flesh. There is no account of a separation, a serpent, an apple or any such thing. This is an ideal creation with an ethereal atmosphere, sort of like the kingdom I imagine. It is a spiritual existance without physical, mortal trappings. It is under a divine rule and reign.
Our next account of creation is a bit different. Considering it as a parable it is God trying to relate to us the partnership we have with Him. God brings two parts to the equation, bringing woman out of man as a helpmate. This helpmate is the mind or soul of man. The mind is a helpmate in that it helps the spirit deal with "matter" or the physical mortal dimension if you will. The soul/mind reasons, builds, rationalizes, constructs, stategizes, problem solves etc.
The spirit (Adam) and soul/mind (Eve) are in glorious union with God. Then one day Eve (the mind) begins to rationalize, reason and think apart from her mate (that is the spirit that is self sacrificing, all consuming love or what is described in Corinthians 13) and is tempted by selfish thought, desired the apple, ate of it and all of a sudden the soul recognized good and evil for it became the same when the mind was not in union with perfect love. Eve began to use the mind separately from the spirit (ADAM). Our carnal nature was born (dualism) and we have struggled ever since as the mind has become our master rather than a servant. Remember Eve (the soul/mind) is the womb of creation. What it thinks it conceives, and we have been creating this world of good and evil ever since.
I believe the account of creation in Genesis 2 is in parabolic form at its best relating to us our condition as beings that perceive separation from God and have thus created our own hellish reality, creating good and evil and judging between it. This is why we are exhorted time and time again not to judge!!! We have a creative force living inside of us and when we judge, we create and we create this present age that is under the LAW. And we have been under the LAW by God's grace - the LAW is a tutor that will ultimately lead us to CHRIST. If you dont have a full understanding of what Christ is I urge you to read a short article called, "Christ is a Verb" located on this website.
"The possibility of ending duality is impossible as long as we remain in the consciousness of good and evil. We have to transcend it and enter a different consciousness, but we cannot do that if we continue to judge.
As long as we continue to judge the events in our lives, we give power to them as either good or bad, which determines the course of our lives.
To end it and then transcend it, we must step outside of this polarity."
Taken from The Ancient Secret of the Flower of Life Volume 2 by Drunvalo Melchizedek
It is in and through our judgment that we create our own reality. This separation and subsequent condition between God and man is a product of the soul or ego based human. It is from this position that the entirety of scripture is written, history, parables and patterns that will ultimately lead us to union once again with God. He is not far away as Adam is the seed of the spirit resident in everyman. The soul that is not "wed" (consumed by her groom, the spirit, perfect self sacrificing love) is creating this ultimate age of duality, a creation that is rooted in carnality. In this age man uses his own rationale and is not "led of the spirit." This pattern is reflected in the physical reality of human marriage. The female (SOUL) is supposed to submit to her husband (THE SPIRIT OF GOD). Paul when exhorting husbands and wives says that he is speaking of a mystery not necessarily to them but speaking about CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH.
Ephesians 5:28- 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
*****
Recently I have been thinking and reading a little bit about alchemy. For those who dont know what alchemy is, I'll try to explain. I had seen the word but never knew what it was until recently. Alchemy as defined by Webster's below.
Alchemy: 1: a medieval chemical science and speculative philosophy aiming to achieve the transmutation of the base metals into gold, the discovery of a universal cure for disease, and the discovery of a means of indefinitely prolonging life2: a power or process of transforming something common into something special3: an inexplicable or mysterious transmuting.
Notice the phrase speculative philosophy above meaning that this is not a proven science to my knowledge. But there sure has been a lot of discussion surrounding the art of turning base or non-precious metals into something very precious, gold, and this discussion has gone on for centuries.
*Alchemy was known as the spagyric art after Greek words meaning to separate and to join together. Compare this with the primary dictum of Alchemy in Latin: SOLVE ET COAGULA Separate, and Join Together.
I really started thinking about this process and what it might mean to us given the knowledge that in Genesis 1 male and female (soul and spirit) were not separate, male and female were together in one divine, spiritual, immortal being. We read in this first account of creation that God created them in His image, one being with both male and female attributes.
Genesis 1: 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Then in Genesis 2 separation took place:
Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. 23 And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
I believe it was with the intent of God to separate and bring them back together in what would be called union or marriage if you will. This marriage is eluded to many times by Jesus Christ who was the divine pattern of union with God. Jesus submitted his will to the will of His Father. Jesus said in the Garden of Gethsemane, 'Nevertheless, not my will but thy will." This separation was played out in the natural, physical patterns of male (spirit) and female (soul) so that by nature we could comprehend the mysteries of God. God speaks to us through nature and by the created things reveals to us mysteries!
Romans 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
Let's look a little further. It is said in the following scripture that Adam was not deceived but the woman Eve was...
1Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
My opinion is this: Adam was not deceived (the spirit in man) but Eve was deceived (the soul in man). Adam willingly took the fruit and entered into death - as in the lamb slain before the foundation of the "world" - the world being created under the law due to the consequences of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This willingness to fall with his bride is an act of self-sacrificing, all consuming love! I imagine our groom said, "I'll fall with you! for I will never leave you nor forsake you! Nothing can keep me from you! We are one! The only place where we are separate is in your mind! But I am with you! Even unto the end of the age!"
We were then separated in our mind, Adam and Eve, soul and spirit yet in one entity, being brought together again to produce something precious, the Son of God.
Consider again what alchemy means:
*Alchemy was known as the spagyric art after Greek words meaning to separate and to join together. Compare this with the primary dictum of Alchemy in Latin: SOLVE ET COAGULA Separate, and Join Together.
Below is a quote from a book called Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East Volume 1.
"Remember that youth is Gods seed of love planted in the human form divine. Indeed youth is the divinity within man; youth is the life spiritual the life beautiful. It is only life that lives and loves the one life eternal. Age is unspiritual, mortal, ugly, unreal. Fear thoughts, pain thoughts, and grief thoughts create the ugliness called old age. Joyous thoughts, love thoughts, and ideal thoughts create the beauty called youth. Age is but a shell within which lies the gem of reality the jewel of youth.
Practice acquiring the consciousness of childhood. Visualize the divine child within. Before falling asleep suggest to your consciousness, I now realize that there is within me a joy-body ever young, ever beautiful. I have a beautiful spiritual mind, eyes, nose mouth, skin the body of the Divine Infant, which now, tonight, is perfect. Repeat this affirmation and meditate upon it quietly while falling asleep. Upon rising in the morning suggest to yourself aloud, Well dear (addressing yourself by name), there is a divine alchemist within. By the spiritual power of these affirmations during the night a transmutation takes place and the unfolding from within, the spirit has saturated this spiritual body and spiritual temple. The inner alchemist has caused dead and worn out cells to fall and the gold of new skin to appear with perpetual health and loveliness. Truly divine Love in demonstration is eternal youth. The divine alchemist is within my temple, constantly coining new and beautiful baby cells. This spirit of youth is within my temple this human form divine, and all is well." End Quote
All is well.
So, we are separated yet in one body. Isn't it interesting the there are two hemispheres in the brain? Left and right and I have even heard them referred to as east and west. Could creation be displaying to us a spiritual truth in the earth?
I have some thoughts about east and west and what they symbolize, eastern hemisphere representing the divine mystical and spiritual emphasis in the brain (or world) and the western hemisphere representing logic, rational, carnal thinking emphasis in the brain (world). I know that these two portions of the brain also represent duality especially as the left-brain (Eve) functions without and independent of the spirit (Adam). I believe these two hemispheres currently function separately but will ultimately return as one (union). When they asked Jesus when His kingdom would come (when he would return) he said as lightning flashes from the east to the west so will the coming of the son of man be. Lightning symbolizes the power of God coming to the earth. Notice that the lightning has to come from the EAST (the spirit!) to the west - the soul.
In my limited understanding there are electrical pathways in the brain that don't crossover from one side of the brain to the other. We can have a logical thought that fires around in the left (west) side of the brain but it is independent of spiritual emphasis. Just as there is spiritual, imaginative thought firing in the right (east) part of the brain independent of the left. I have read that the separating veil (and isn't it interesting that it is called a "veil"?) between the hemispheres (corpus callosum) may be thinning and that soon we may see an evolutionary step in the making where thought patterns are not limited hemispherically. The east (spirit) will proceed the west (mind). The mind, Eve or the bride will submit to her groom, the spirit. So Jesus said as lightning flashes (originates) from the spiritual mind to the carnal mind so will my coming be (the son of man or us, into the kingdom or 4th dimension). It is also interesting that the Song of Solomon Chapter 5 speaks of a time when the bride will have her "veil" taken away.
So allow me to speculate. Why did God separate us? He knew that He would ultimately plan a "re-UNION"so why the separation to begin with? In all of creation, he created mankind unique in that we are like Him, created in His likeness, with the ability to choose or refuse him. He is a gentle lover, never forceful or coercive. He longs for His bride to desire Him, to chase after Him, to love Him with all of her soul. He wants her to choose Him. She is veiled, unable to see His majesty unlike the angels who behold his glory with unveiled eyes. But we who are veiled are then courted by His unfailing love not as eyewitnesses but one who must perceive with the heart. What groom wants a bride to love Him without choice? Therefore He created us, like Him, with the ability to choose or to be led astray by that infamous woman Jezebel whom we have suffered to teach us (Revelation 2). Jezebel (the soul!) usurps the authority of her husband (the Spirit) and thus the human is thrown on a sickbed and ultimately dies. It is a death by carnal nature!!!
But now the veil rent, the bride is coming out of her closet looking for her beloved the one who is the lover of her soul.
The Spirit is her groom. He is all consuming, unfailing LOVE. The Spirit is immortal. This immortal babe is in you. It is Christ born into humility (the manger), the submitted, humbled human soul.
You are not your mind. You are an immortal spiritual being having a temporal mortal experience. Step outside of your mind and see who you are. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Be born again. Be born from above!"
http://www.immortalson.com/Divine_Alchemy.html
Quote from: pneuma on March 12, 2009, 02:46:17 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 12, 2009, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: pneuma on March 12, 2009, 02:17:37 PM
QuoteNow what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King.
Hi DOD good posts sister, may I just add that after the soul dies that we then see the progression of this death applied to the spirit, for the earth earth man is also composed of spirit soul and body and every inch of him must die.
QuoteI will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
For myself here I do not believe Adam laid down his life for Eve or died to self.
Eve is the expression of the soul.
And one must LOSE their soul in order to save it.
Adam by following his soul/Eve never lost his soul.
If Adam had of been obedient to God's word and lost his soul he then would have saved it.
Which would have been the true laying down of his life.
interesting Scott
so, he/Adam willfully sinned, not deceived but by active rebellion; knowing it would be a "marriage" with death. So, basically, "Adam" (our spirit) can choose to "save his soul" (Eve) or die to it (and hence live unto the SPIRIT), with our spirit testifying with HIS that we are a child of God.
Is that what u are saying??
Hi Zeek, yes Adam wilfully sinned, thus he sinned a sin unto death, there is a sin that is unto death and sin that is NOT unto death.
Wilful disobedience is a sin unto death. And we all know this because Adam entered into DEATH after his disobedience.
God sets before us the choice of life or death, obedience is life to the spirit, soul and body of man and disobedience is the death of spirit, soul and body of man.
The old man Adam is encased in death/disobedience and in order for it to be saved every part must come into obedience to the Father. Thus God disallows the covenant of death that man has made and brings us forth from death unto life.
Hello Pneuma!
I want to thank you for all that you have written....and I also want to say that I AGREE with everything too....I would like to clarify on 2 of my comments.
The statement...."Now what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King."
For me my language right now is that of a toddler....I am one that has not learned any of what I am speaking through books or other's that have written on the new birth...all I can say is what I have experienced...what my Father has wrought within me....I have been a believer for over 20 yrs. but have only been born from above over the last couple of years....for I always thought that the term 'born again' was when a person gave their heart to the Lord....I have a new understanding of that word now....for I see that just as in the natural so too in the Spirit....so what I first thought of as 'born again' I now understand to be 'conception'....then as one is GROWN in the womb through all the processes of Father and DEVELOPS the ears of the spirit, the eyes of the spirit, the hands, the feet....ect of the Spirit...there comes a DAY when the cross has worked such a death that the old adamic spirit dies and the NEW CREATION SPIRIT is born.
This was a very real death for me....and a very real birth.
I have since learned what it means to have Micheal and the dragon fighting within my HEAVENS....for I have never encountered such a fighting within (my mind) as I have over the last couple of years since I have come to the REALITY of SONSHIP....there indeed is a very real war that takes place in the Heavens. This is the battle of ESTABLISHING that I believe we see that Father wants to do with His New Jerusalem people. (Is. chpt 62).
Now as I questioned my Father as to what was going on....telling Him that I did not understand and explaining to Him that I thought I had died to Old Adam...I heard these words..."You died to the Spirit of Old Adam but the Soul of the Spirit of Old Adam is now dying"....and eventually the outer garment (body) will be clothed with my Heavenly garment that is the reality of my TRUE SELF...the self/spirit that I now am IN HIM.
Now as to the other comment I made...."I will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
When I used the phrase..."DIE TO SELF"....I was referring to the actual life (physical)....not His *soul*....
and in that respect He did show His love for her in that he gave up his physical life so that she would not die alone...this to me is one of those *secret things* that belong to the Lord for it has not been revealed to me as yet if Adam
knew what the consequence of obedience would have been....but as according to what you wrote I completely AGREE....
Eve is the expression of the soul.
And one must LOSE their soul in order to save it.
Adam by following his soul/Eve never lost his soul.
If Adam had of been obedient to God's word and lost his soul he then would have saved it.
Which would have been the true laying down of his life.
************
Once again my *language* is still that of a toddler....and I am searching in my vocabulary to bring forth the understanding of the reality that I have learned /experienced thus far in my walk with Him....
I completely agree with what you wrote above....
I also loved what you wrote to Zeek about obedience....yes! I see it that way too.
Thank you my brother for helping me to clarify my thoughts....spurring me on to know Him....
What a wonder you are IN HIM.
I give you praise Lord!
Be blessed dear brother,
DoD
Quote
For myself here I do not believe Adam laid down his life for Eve or died to self.
Eve is the expression of the soul.
And one must LOSE their soul in order to save it.
Adam by following his soul/Eve never lost his soul.
If Adam had of been obedient to God's word and lost his soul he then would have saved it.
Which would have been the true laying down of his life.
:icon_flower:
Ho Sheila\Dod
Just a small note to say Thanks for sharing along with us, Its real Good to have you at Tent
Blessings
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on March 12, 2009, 08:47:53 PM
Ho Sheila\Dod
Just a small note to say Thanks for sharing along with us, Its real Good to have you at Tent
Blessings
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Thank you Taffy.... :bigGrin:....
As from your wedding picture ....you are the groom right??
Either way....just know that I am being so blessed by many here at TM....including you! :icon_flower:
DoD
thanks Graham! It has been nothing but joy :bgdance: to be
here with you all. A great spiritual/love feast.
QuoteHello Pneuma!
I want to thank you for all that you have written....and I also want to say that I AGREE with everything too....I would like to clarify on 2 of my comments.
The statement...."Now what I am learning at this stage in my walk with the Lord is that there is still a dying to the soul ....for the Lord showed me that the old adamic spirit was dead but the old adamic soul is now little by little being conquered by the King."
For me my language right now is that of a toddler....I am one that has not learned any of what I am speaking through books or other's that have written on the new birth...all I can say is what I have experienced...what my Father has wrought within me....I have been a believer for over 20 yrs. but have only been born from above over the last couple of years....for I always thought that the term 'born again' was when a person gave their heart to the Lord....I have a new understanding of that word now....for I see that just as in the natural so too in the Spirit....so what I first thought of as 'born again' I now understand to be 'conception'....then as one is GROWN in the womb through all the processes of Father and DEVELOPS the ears of the spirit, the eyes of the spirit, the hands, the feet....ect of the Spirit...there comes a DAY when the cross has worked such a death that the old adamic spirit dies and the NEW CREATION SPIRIT is born.
This was a very real death for me....and a very real birth.
Yes and amen sis, tis why Paul states
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
That manifestation is the birth or the coming out of the birth canal that the creature is still waiting for. Christ was manifest in the world 2000 years ago and He will be again manifest in the world in His BODY of which we are a part.
QuoteNow as to the other comment I made...."I will say this....your argument of Adam laying his life down....is something I believe is true....for no greater love has any man than this but to lay his life down for his friends....this is true AGAPE love....
Adam loved His bride....He didn't want to be departed from her....so he chose to DIE TO SELF so that she would not die alone.
When I used the phrase..."DIE TO SELF"....I was referring to the actual life (physical)....not His *soul*....
and in that respect He did show His love for her in that he gave up his physical life so that she would not die alone...this to me is one of those *secret things* that belong to the Lord for it has not been revealed to me as yet if Adam knew what the consequence of obedience would have been....
I see what you're saying sis but would like to give you something else to think on.
Adam never followed Eve into death (Eve followed Adam into death) for Eve's sin was a sin NOT unto death for she was deceived, whereas Adam not being deceived was openly disobedient, that's why Gods punishment of death that he promised did not come into effect until AFTER Adam ate.
QuoteOnce again my *language* is still that of a toddler....and I am searching in my vocabulary to bring forth the understanding of the reality that I have learned /experienced thus far in my walk with Him....
Your language is fine sis, we all have need of one another and here is something some people do not seem to understand, THE BODY MUST GROW TOGETHER, no one is above another in Christ, so your language is my language and my language is your language for ALL of HIS body has ONE language and will be birthed at the SAME TIME for He will have a PERFECT BODY without form or wrinkle.
God bless
Thank you Pnuema for all that you shared...
You have given me some things to ponder on....and am grateful.
Blessings to you,
DoD
Great post, Zeek! Much to think on there...
the law is the rules that apply to the house of Israel and not to any Gentile i.e. me.
Transgression of the above laws (All 640 of them) is Sin which only pays out Spiritual Separation from life ( God ) Equals Death.
I am a Gentile and don't follow Law and Because I am not a follower of Law I transgress no law, no sin, and No Death because I have my life IN the new life that is in Jesus, God's Christ
Hartley Damboise II @ sinfree@gmx.com
Quote from: sparrow on March 07, 2009, 08:12:41 AM
To me the law is just there because people don't yet know what love is and what it means TO LOVE.
Example:
LAW: If you are married, do not sleep with other men.
ME: I love my husband and would lay down my life for him, I love him THAT much. Of COURSE I don't need some law telling me not to sleep with other men! The thought would never even enter into my mind.
The law does not apply to me, in that, LOVE has already kicked that law to the curb. It is not needed.
I do not need a law that tells me to do something dishonorable to the one that I love.
A lot of people get really zoned in on sin. They turn sin into a god. It's true. The law becomes some sort of god to them. How foolish.
What did Jesus come here for in the first place?
To show us the way.
LOVE.
The more you love, the less NEED you have for law....
The law is here to help us see our NEED to LEARN about LOVE.
The more you love, TRULY UNSELFISHLY LOVE, the less you need someone telling you what TO DO and what NOT TO DO... it will be written on your heart.
I don't see why it has to be any more complicated than that.
But that's just me.
I know I'm still the girl on the outside peering in...
I don't know the language.
and that's ok.
I'm ok with that.
peace.
Wow. I think that might just be the best thing I've ever read on the law. It's so simple, but it makes perfect sense, AND I don't think it contradicts anything.
:goodpost:
Quote from: Tim B on August 09, 2009, 06:06:25 AMQuoteThe law does not apply to me, in that, LOVE has already kicked that law to the curb. It is not needed.
Wow. I think that might just be the best thing I've ever read on the law. It's so simple, but it makes perfect sense, AND I don't think it contradicts anything.
:goodpost:
Yeah, great post sparrow. And I think very scriptural. Once faith comes "which worketh by love" we are no longer under the schoomaster. As sparrow puts it... does not apply, kicked to the curb by love, not needed.
- Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
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- Galations 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love
<br>
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:happy3:
:cloud9: Good post, Sparrow..... :thumbsup: Blessings....
I think we all are "jacob" at times in our lives... We all wrestle, we all work for LABAN (who is a sheep shearer) = makes money off the flock, and worships many gods (false beliefs), I call Laban RELIGION --- He tricks you into marrying the one you don't want to marry (LEAH) = THE LAW... which gives birth to TEN SONS (the commandments) -- ALSO Leah, has poor eyesight (understanding)
When you WORK (self efforts) for LABAN (Religion) who marry (Become One) with LEAH (poor understanding and the law)
But isn't it interesting that we ALL have our time with LABAN... and eventually we find our TRUE LOVE RACHEL... You see the LAW is our schoolmaster and it LEADS US TO CHRIST... And when we finally leave LABAN (religion) we bring both our wives (THE LAW AND CHRIST) with us.
Don't know if any of this makes any sense, but it sure was fun to think about. Peace
Quoting Jacob/Israel from Wisefire
:cloud9: I like it RLV :thumbsup: Blessings....
Lovely post,Sparrow. :HeartThrob:
Carlene, loved it. :HeartThrob: Gonna have to start calling you
BRIGHTEYES!!
Sheila
bump