In Matthews 24:12 Again Jesus makes an interesting statement;" And because Lawlessness is increased, most peoples Love will grow " Cold." I was looking at this and it confused me for a second. I'm thinking, well what about peoples Love, is related to Law so much, that when Laws are being broken, it weakens their Love? I'm thinking Love has nothing to do with Law and order, but the way Christ said this, one would think Law and Love are interelated.
Well people are married according to Law, but then after the legal ceremony is over, what has Law to do with their relationship from then on, very little I would say. Some yes, but not much. Love is the weave that binds a Good relationship, and if you expand that into the neighborhood or the city, it certainly would help the atmosphere, and spread out of your house and into the community.
But The way Jesus makes this statement, and he was speaking about the end of the age of man, something about this time of man, will interelate Laws with Love. Because if Lawlessness increases and Love decreses, then they will be interelated. So, when we see a time that Love and Law are related, then we are seeing the last days.
What about breaking Laws, would cause Love in people to grow cold, or that is to say " Weaker?" How could Law, get into effecting Love? I mean if you think about that, does watching the news about crime and humans breaking the Laws, make your Love grow weaker? I don't think it makes mine weaker, but I'm trying to get with this scripture and understand it. And Jesus went as far as to say " Most people", so I think he was being serious, and this is a serious issue. I didnot think Law breaking had such and effect on Love, but I believe in Christ so much, I have learned not to doubt that he is right about something, but I understand that I need to get with HIS understanding of HIS statements. If I lean on my own understanding, then " Poof", it could blow up in my mind.
So I wanted to go into this strange relation between Love and Law.
Peace.
The dynamic of " Loosing Love" has been best expressed to me and my experience, by women, that is the best example that I am aware of through my personal observation. Its a heart wrenching thing to observe. Very sad and upsetting, yet very real and astute. It has been my unfortunate experience to have seen this more than once, and I have learned a great deal from it, sadly at the expense of several females in my life.
The ability of Love to possess someone to a degree that they don't want to loose it, is truly a thing to behold, something that has evaded me in my experience. I think woman is Gods finest creation by far, that I have seen, and yet Love has a way of " Comming out of Women", its expression is truly something that I personally covet, kind of makes me wish I could " Feel" that way about someone. I have known some women who would do almost anything to keep their man. If they thought they were going to loose him, they become highly emotional and unsettled. And I don't think that reaction is unique to just women alone, I have known men who get emotional and often violent, if they see themselves loosing their womans Love.
When a womans Love grows cold toward her man, then the air is just comming out of the ballon of the relationship. When Love grows cold, it is a dismal thing. And I think that could " Cause" someone to break Laws, and start on a path of more Lawlessness. Which may well be the dynamic behind people who go on school campuses and start shooting others they don't even know. They either lost Love, never had it, or were loosing it, and it led to them loosing their minds. No Love from family, no Love from society, just no Love at all, espically none within themselves.
When Love grows cold in a society, that is just dangerous. Imagine the children born into such a society, just think of how this will effect them. You can't " Loose Love you never had in the first place."
When Love withdraws from you, the withdrawal that causes can be very severe. And I want to go into that.
Peace.
And because Lawlessness is increased, most peoples Love will grow Cold. A bold statement, inspiring just as bold thoughts. And its good to be just as bold in our learning. I am often amused at how others look at my learning and the vehicles I use to learn, like " Fables." They can't seem to get to that, because they cannot see the knowledge in the vehicle. With this verse, Matt. 24:12, the vehicle of my learning is women. My curiousity is pricked by the scripture, the theme of the public loosing its Love, having its Love weakened by Lawlessness. I have to refer to what I know about it, which is not much, so I must learn. When you limit the learning vehicles in your mind, then you are not learning at your full potential.
When a woman Loves, its because she wants to, desires to, and sometimes the Love is not returned. So a woman loosing her Love, is a good approach to understanding what Christ was teaching on. Lawlessness will cause the Love of many to " Grow" cold. Get that, " Grow" cold, which means a continual process, a connected influence that " Feeds" the coldness. In 2 Thess.2:3;" Let no one in anyway deceive you, for it willnot come unless the Apostacy comes first, and the " Man of Lawlessness " be revealed, the son of destruction." Look at how this ties in with Christ statement of Love growing cold because of Lawlessness, then we have a " Man of Lawlessness", and these hold the ability to push influence in the direction that people start " Loosing their Love."
When a woman starts loosing her Love, she is being drained of something in her being. I have literally seen this before, you can literally see it comming out of her, she's being drained to dry, almost like a rasin, and the lost has her shirveled. Some have said that some people, when they die, you can see and hear them take their last breath, and you just know the life is gone. The woman had a lot of Love within her, now its comming out, like sorrowful sweat, it pours from within her being. Tears of saddness and reluctance to loose such a precious part of her being. Often not her fault, she withdraws and sighs as she crys her soul into submission of loosing her joy. Then she begins to " Grow Cold", as she sulks and sinks into why this had to be. And at this point, she can become very vulnerable to " Influence", weakened, she now must face the oncomming world without her Love.
And in this sense, we can compare the woman to soceity, and learn about What Christ was talking about.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel
And in this sense, we can compare the woman to soceity, and learn about What Christ was talking about.
Peace.
When you remove any Love from a woman, you are removing an essential part of her essence, and she will reel from it. So it is with society, when Love is removed, you freeze an essential componant of it. And it will rock that soceity from its much needed balence. Laws may be instilled to restore that balance, but Love is also a Law, and if Love is not present, judical Law can only do so much to constrain people who are really reeling from a lack of Love. Love could control a mob, where even judical law or force couldnot. And so it is in marriage between two people. The pressence of Love is a far better peace maker and substainer than governmental Law.
In Matt. 24:10;" And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another." Here we see people falling away from one another, turning on one another. And hate entering into that mix. When a woman or a society is reeling with the Loosing of Love, they become vulnerable. Vs. 11;" And many false prophets will arise and will mislead many." Here we see other forces entering into this mix, trying to take advantage of the Woman, or the society. False prophets, a sure sign of something religious being involved. Women approach Religion much differently than men do, because they ARE different. And they react to loosing Love differently than men do. The mourning is far more intense.
In 2 Tim.3:5-6, we see how religion enters into this vulnerability;" A form of Godliness enters into the fray." For amoung them are those who enter into the households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses. Always learning and never able to come into the knowledge of the truth. Or you can say " Weak citys or states, weighed down by crime and turmoil", either applys. When Love is weakened, things are more opened to this invasion of forces that seek to disrupt and take advantage.
Peace.
You ever just watch a baloon loose its air? As the air is released, the baloon begins to change. Its being drained of its substance, and because of that, its undergoing a change. When women loose Love its a very simular thing. The woman can become unsettled and moody, cry a lot and gain or loose weight, even become sick. It changes her and the change can be both physical and emotional, and in some cases, mental. A man could go berserk and be brought to the point of killing. I once had a friend, who has since passed, but he was a very good freind, my best in life ever. He was the best man I have ever known. His name was William, and he was the most non violent, good man I have ever been with, and he was a man of God. I had walked with William for about 20 years, so I knew this man. God gave him an excellent Spirit about himself.
One day William met a woman. They dated, he spent a lot of money on her, he was really likeing this woman. Williams money ran out and she broke off the relationship. At least that was my opinon of why she did it, there could have been other reasons unknown by me. I was sitting in the apartment we shared when Will called her on the phone. I heard him tell her that if he couldnot have her, then nobodyelse can. He told her he would put her 6 feet under the ground, AND her Mother too! Needless to say I was shocked, I couldnot believe my ears. The woman called our pastor, he called the apartment, Will wouldnot come to the phone. To make a long story short, Will went to her house after this, stabbed her car tires with a knife, and tried to kick her door down. Eventually Will got over this, in just a few months. But I saw for myself what loosing Love can do. It changed this Godly man, and nearly turned him into a killer overnight.
Years after this happened and Will was able to talk about it, he told me it was like a " Spirit came over him", and he was not himself. He told me he never has went through anything like that, and that it literally " Took Control" of his mind and heart.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
I was at home depot some years back in Atlanta, where the bugs are as big as some animals. I had bought a home and it had ants in it. The man at the store suggested to me that I get this " Slow releasing Bait", which has isotobes on it that are poision. The isotobes attach themselves to the Ant, and when the Ant returns to the nest, it spreads and kills inside of the nest, in hopes of killing the Queen Ant, thus wiping out the entire brood. If there is a sin that could do the same thing to a city, its hatred. If you get people to hate one another, you can get them to kill one another. And often sin acts like a slow releasing poision that spreads.
A few war movies I have seen, I recall tension was so high amoungst the troops, that they started fighting each other, while the enemy approached with plans on killing them. When Love is removed, or even hampered, the atmosphere changes, defintely changes, and those changes send people through more changes. For reasons I really don't complettely understand, God instilled within women, cycles, periodical changes that their bodies must go through. So women are literally called to go through changes, both physical and emotional. Love is something that many women pride themselves on.
I have no need to know what women talk about amoungst themselves, because I have heard it enough for myself. You sit in proximity of a female conversation, you are sure to hear, amoungst other things, " My husband, My boyfriend, or My Children", over and over again. Most of the stuffings of " Relationships", one of the Keys to holding people, family, or citys together. So when we hear Christ state that the " Love of many will grow cold", the first red flag should pop up in whats going on with our women. Our relationships, our Familys.
Because if Love is being attacked, that means our women are being attacked, and the poision will try to attach itself to them, so they can carry it home for ultimate effect. Now there are several dynamics involved in the Loosing of Love, that can teach some definte " Spiritual lessons." And there are reasons why satan spoke mostly to Eve in his assualt on Eden. Not so much that she was the " Weaker vessel", because they both wern't far from each other no matter how one views it, they were children at heart and in mind, they were not theologians, but moreso because of Eves Love, and her effect she held on Adam. Eve was the more influential of the two. I would say the more powerful of the two. And I just know some men will disagree with that. But I will show why .
Peace.
In Gen.3:1-6 we see the interaction between the serpent and Eve. Notice the serpent addressed Eve, not Adam, in fact the whole conversation was with Eve, Adam never said a word, a sure sign of weakness in a man. Which husband amoung you would remain silent while your wife was being misled and interrigated? Eve then takes the fruit and then gives it to Adam. In vs. 13 God again mostly interrigates Eve, " What is this you have done?" So its no doubt that Eve was much more prominent in this most extrodinary event in human history. And I am sure she probally " Felt" much remorse and thought she was Loosing Gods Love for her. But the beast went after the woman, for a reason too.
Not because she was the weaker, I believe because she held the most influence, and had an edge over Adam, because of Adams Love for her. Adam showed submission to Eve, and choose that over God. I think Adam may well have felt that if he didnot eat, he would loose Eve. So the garden of Eden, is also a Love story, it really is. Eve got over her quilt no doubt, because she said in 4:1 that God gave her the first baby that she had. She gave the glory of the birth to God.
the serpent attacked the woman, because I think he evaluated and scanned their weakness, and saw the weakness as Adams Love. His desire for Eve. He didnot want to loose her, if the fruit was going to change her, he wanted to be what she would become. The serpent knew that Eve would spread her desire into Adam. Poision the Queen in the nest, and you poision all off her offspring. Worser than the Ant poision in home depot, this poision would continue throughout all the generations of Adam.
Peace.
The Dynamic of Loosing Love is a " Draining", any leakage of Love from you is an oozing exhale of vital substance. Although women were designed to have regular discharges , when Love is outpoured it is a gush of pain. Its an ejection of a vital organ being dislodged from her, almost akin to her heart being banished or exiled. Love was not designed to be eliminated or abused, when it is violently ripped out of us, its a puke or a barf of our very soul.
Let me pause from subject and say this; All that God is developing within humanity, is meant to last forever. These are eternal lessons, Eternal attributes , Love is an Eternal thing, and God has always been. I don't think God created Love or Peace or Goodness and Joy. We are so accostomed to saying God created this, and God created that, he is the Author of this and that, and rightfully so we say these things. But God didnot create himself, what is God, well God is Love, he didnot create himself, thus he didnot create Love. Love, Thats just how God is, its his personality, his way of being, its how he thinks, and he didnot create those things within himself. If you teach that God created these ways within himself, then you are suggesting that there was a time that he didNOT have these ways, and thus had to create them within himself. If that be the case, then what are you suggesting that God was like before he recreated himself?
I think we can rightfully state that God is creating Love within us. God is the standard bearer of Love, he set the pace, and he's had a long time to set it up right. God is durable and stable, perhaps hard to explain, but I think he has always been that way. And the beings in Heaven have always benefitted from Gods ways and means. Imagine how it would disrupt Heaven, if Heaven were to loose God, if God would leave and not return. Well God wouldnot do that, not because he can't, but he just does not want to, I don't like saying God " Can't" do something. Love , or God, is never meant to be interupted or perishable. Our lessons being taught us are eternal, because God is eternal, Love is an eternal consistancy, we are never to loose it in Heaven, or in Gods Kingdom.
But here on earth, its a different story. The earth will loose Love, and it will violently react , and has been violently reacting to it. The Love on earth has not been refined or mixed with Gods Love, or the Love would endure and continue. The Love of many will grow cold, because it is not Gods seasoned enduring Love.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The Loosing of Love on earth, is NOT a thing of Gods Love being interupted, because Gods Love cannot be lost or taken away. Love lost or growing cold on earth is human Love, which is a mere shadow of Gods Love. In John 5:38 again Jesus;"But I know you, that you do not have the Love of God in yourselves." The way of man is not in himself, oh he wants to find his way, but without the added ingredient of Gods Love " Being IN him", its just a difficult way to live. People want to have Gods Love IN them, because they already have Gods Love, meaning God already Loves us all, but its a different kind of thing than emotion is. Gods Love is just as much a part of him, as his Holy Spirit is.
Let me add something here, as we have internal organs inside of us that are a vital " Part" of our physical make up, they are a literal part of us, God also has vital " Parts of himself", inside of himself. These are God vital essentials inside of him, Love, Joy, Peace, Goodness, Kindness, Patience, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Faithfulness, these things ARE God, they are just as vital to him, as our body organs are to us.
When God " Imparts" these things into humans, he is literally placing parts of himself INSIDE of a human, and we cannot see these things, only the evidence of these things can be seen. Not that they are ethereal things, they are Spiritual things. And they are eternal things, so they cannot be displaced. One reason the Love on earth will grow cold, is because its not Gods Love in the people who " Loose it". But human Love is NOT a bad thing per sey. So I don't think its a good experience even loosing that. But just understand the difference between the physical and the Spiritual. The physical is " Ours" or earthy, the Spiritual is " Gods' or heavenly. One is temporal the other eternal. Human obedience is human, Godly obedience is from Heaven. Now if my son does not have Heavenly obedience, then human obedience would be just fine with me, at least he will obey, albeit unperfectly. So it is with Love, if not heavenly, then at least Love me humanely.
So humane Love will grow cold on the earth.
Peace.
So we should not say " Love is Love", because human Love and Devine Love is different, but loosing Love is just not a good thing, even if its just human Love. Even human Love should be respected and held on to. Again Jesus in John 15:9;" Just as the Father has Loved me, I have also Loved you, abide in MY Love." Again Jesus shows Gods Love as the standard here, and tells them to use HIS Love to keep it together. In vs.7 he says " If you abide in me", which is the direction he was giving. The Love is Gods, the Joy is Gods, the direction is Gods. " Ye are Gods", meaning we belong to God, even we are Gods. But the earth is Gods also and he's not going to let it be destroyed in vain, neither will he let our Love for each other be in vain.
So as Love is ripped from humanity, Gods Love remains constant, and although we may see human Love growing colder, Gods Love will substain his people through anything and everything. But how should we react to the world loosing Love?
Peace.
Brilliant!
Because of Lawlessness the Love of many will grow cold. I am glad he didnot say that the Love of everybody will grow cold, so theres still going to be some Lovers out there. But these will be some very hard times. In Romans 13:10;" Love does no wrong to a neighbor, Love therefore is the fulfillment of the Law." As Love grows cold so will respect of the Law, both Gods and mans. But mostly mans laws here, because the world is not engulfed in Gods Laws.
If you Love a woman your just not going to do her wrong. The more you see yourself doing her wrong, the more you need to question your Love for her, and then answer those questions to yourself and do something about it. I want to take a detour here and go a bit into Love relationships, because when Laws are broken and Love is growing cold, you need to consistantly re establish your Love to those who Love you. Love is a circle, and it both keeps Love within the circle and hate out of it. Gods Love is circular, it has no end and it is a continuim, so the standard is already set to follow. A staight line has a beginning and an end, a circle does not, it envisions Eternity itself. Everything about God suggest a continuim, what he does, he has done over and over and over again, and this is simular to perfection.
Eternity then is an explination of God, not that he had to reherse things to get them into perfection, but eternity " Harneses Gods Perfection", and continues it. We are the ones who need to reherse and keep doing it over and over again. We need to establish Love and practice it, and habitually offer it over and over again, because this is what eternity is going to be like. As Love grows cold, then we will be in a pattern of living and expression that this worlds rush cannot penertrate.
Peace.
To get the sense of what Christ meant by Love growing cold, we need to focus on the woman, because I believe God invested much more in women that men care to acknowledge. The Woman was the focus of the events in Eden, and notice in Gen. 3:16, as God voiced his displeasure to her, invested in her was really Gods pleasure. He didnot take away Eves Love for Adam, he turned her desire from the fruit to her husband. So the " Curse" was not some kind of " Evil damnation", he simply redirected her focus from one area to another. This is where God placed focus on the family, and the Woman was still the " Key" to this redirection. In her is invested desire, or you can say Love. He placed committment in her to establish human Love on earth, so God even established human Love also.
Then he also gave her " Pain in her childbirth", as God gave the rainbow as a sign, so it is when women experience pain in giving birth, it is also a sign of the suffering that we must endure. When God assigns pain it is really an honor, to both believer and non believer, because you have been chosen to suffer. Every life on earth then has been filtered through the pain of a Woman. I live because of the pain of my Mother. Through the pain of Christ, we all shall Live eternally, so birthpains are the entrance to our lives , both human and devine.
Then God tells the serpent, he will put "Enmity" between him and the woman, in vs.15. Do you know what this means? It means God put " Hostility and Antagonism" between satan and women. satan " Hates" females, strongly dislikes them. Don't forget this. Its because of what God has invested in women, which I will go into later. Because of this, and men need to be keenly aware of this, it is really a shame for a man to hate a woman. Women have the special hatred from satan to already deal with, we men should then not compound that by adding our hate to their troubles. Men need to be aware of this hatred satan has for women, keep it in mind, and offer them nothing but our Love, because satan hates them, bangs hard on them, so we don't need to be banging on them also.
With this in mind, I want to go into relationships, and how vital Love is, and how important it is for a Man to see to it that the Love in his relationship should never grow cold. And how important it is for women to correctly understand what God has invested in them in relationships.
Peace.
The number 1 cause of Death of Women is Domestic Violence, a frightening stat by any means. And I am not sure, but I would venture to say that in most of those cases, a man killed them. This fact alone is reflective of a serious problem in relationships. Perverted Love, retracted Love, Jealous Love, witheld Love, overbearing Love, abused Love, or Love grown cold, all examples of human Love gone astray. Relationships need to be invested in. Some men will invest time, money and effort in their careers, their Job, even their animals and recreation , and then invest hardly nothing into their relationship with their Woman.
Relationships need to be secure, not taken for granted. And they need to be kept secure. Some men are perficent in paying the bills, upkeep of their vechicles and mowing the lawn, which is fine and dandy, but what about the " Daily Maintinance " of your Womans needs and desires? What are you doing with that? You come home and feed the Dog, make sure the fish are fed, put oil in the cars and then don't even ask your wife has she eaten. God invested an awful lot into Eve, and we need to invest as much as we can into our women. Espically believers and followers of God. The breakdown of human society, will heavily involve the detiration of Love, firstly between couples, and then into the couples children, and that always equals soceity.
In winter we all try to keep warm, the comming advent of peoples Love growing Cold, demands that we keep our Family Love warm. And there are ways we can do this.
Peace.
I'm not sure I can add much...seems it more about women...a subject I can
never understand. I wrote this long ago about law and love...another debate. Not sure that it applies much to this topic, so take it or leave it.
"First, we have God's divine moral law, that arises from God's nature. They are unchanging. We must define the difference between moral law and the Cultic/Cultural law. Each are different in form and purpose.
God's moral law is the basis of love in every aspect, how to abide and function in it with God and humanity where love seeks no harm. God's laws relate into our purpose how we serve him and other humans. These moral laws protect and secure humanity. Without them, we would die off.
Almost all of human law stems from God's moral law. Even though we deny God in our legal system, the whole system stems form God, "you shall not steal, kill, ect." Moral law is cross cultural, for all people at all times.
The Cultic/Cultural law was given to the nation of Israel specifically. These laws are not cross cultural, they were for the purpose of building a nation, that would be God's chosen people and the linage of Christ. These laws separated Israel from other nations. Laws of sacrifice of animals. Some of the laws are of Messianic linage, some to guarantee tribal inheritance of land. Of course many of these laws prohibited many behaviors. Rules were given that seem strange and cruel to our culture, but were specific to maintaining Israel's total dependence on God. All of these laws ceased when their purpose was fulfilled, when Christ ended them. Most of these laws are contained within the holiness code outlined in Lev. 17-27. This code was to separate Israel from other secular culture and religious practices. Christ did away with all these laws. For anyone to attempt to keep them would be vainful and useless. As you said, one was meat and Paul addressed that.
Again, Christ freed us from all this law. He gave us the command to love God and others and stated this fulfills all the law. James tells us "love does no harm, thus it fulfills the law." Simply, if in our actions we seek to do no harm, that fulfills the law of love. The old law serves no purpose. We live under one law..the law of love. It amazes me that people are bound to so much legalism. We are under grace, but many churches still abide in laws, rituals, ect, that have nothing to do with love. That's why so many churches are filled with gossip, hypocrisy, judging, ect...Truly miserable Christians.
There are so many cases of decisions on what is sin or not. (1 Cor.11:5-6, 13) talk about women and head covering, cutting hair, ect. Many religions abide in this, that women must cover their head or have long hair. Paul does address this, more culturally, seeming to imply women should cover their heads, BUT, he ended by saying "Judge for yourselves":" Is it proper for a women to pray to God with her head uncovered?" There are some other verses concerning men with long hair. Paul leaned toward the culture of the day, basically saying that culture can play a part, but in the end, clearly we are to judge for ourselves. The bible is not exactly a constitution regarding sin, it leaves a decision process based on many principles.
The same could be said of women speaking in the church. Culturally, at that time, it may be better they do not, but is it a divine command? Gal. 3:28 "There is neither Greek, Jew, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ."
1 Tim. 2:9;1Pet. 3.3, both talk about what women should wear, "let not your adornment be external, braiding of hair,,,wearing gold jewelry and THE PUTTING ON OF DRESSES." Peter basically forbid women to wear dresses. Funny, many get on women about wearing jewelry, makeup, nice clothes, but have no problem with the wearing of dresses, yet they call it divine law...haha. Should we obey Peter and not allow the "wearing of dresses." This is where so many legalist choose as they please, forgetting they were addressing many of the cultural problems of the day. The problem wasn't in the jewelry, makeup or the dress code. Paul and Peter were addressing concerns over certain women dressing outrageously in that day to draw attention to themselves for evil intent. Wearing dresses, makeup, ect. do not violate the law of love in our culture. Today, some women would be breaking the law of love if they didn't put makeup on!
There were so many of these issues that were historical or cultural and they were dealt with as such. Paul left openings and decision making, based on future culture and circumstances. Take the tribes in Africa, running around naked means nothing to them. Paul addresses issues that abide in love and certainly culture can change that.
Drinking is an option, drunkenness is not. Listening to decent secular music does not violate the law of love, dancing, wearing shorts, using birth control, ect. and so on....none break the law of love, unless in someway you have an intent to do harm. Only man made law implies that they do. The list could fill a book.
Rom. 8.13, "Nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything is unclean, to him it is unclean. That's clear and biblical. Nothing is unclean in itself.
Clearly, sin can differ from individual as he views sin. This often changes one way or the other as people grow and study scripture. If it does not break the law of love and you can be happy in your conscience, the bible says you can freely act, as long as you don't become a stumbling block for someone that is weaker. Something's you may not do in front of a weaker person. However, if you doubt in your conscience, you should not act, until it is resolved, Cor. 8:12.
Each person must exercise their faith before God. Roms. 14: 22-23 "The faith you have, have as your OWN CONVICTION before God. "HAPPY is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves."; But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." This does two things. You are to base your decisions on love and not harming others, decide for yourself, do not let others decide for you, a church, Pastor, friend, ect. You must answer for your conscience, not theirs. It also takes away your right to judge others.
Each must truly be honest in himself. The law of love is not a liberty to use to fulfill anything you desire. Desires and motives must be tested. When in doubt, take more time to study and pray. God wants and give us the right to live without self-condemnation, with joy, peace, and fulfillment. Legalist will seek to take that away, rather having you live in guilt, shame, doubt and misery on earth. They think any pleasure outside of religion is sin. The churches would be full across the world if not for the misery of legalisms. People see church as a trap of misery of do's and don't, not understanding the law of love.
Quote from: Armistead on February 28, 2008, 02:54:42 AM
I'm not sure I can add much...seems it more about women...a subject I can
never understand. I wrote this long ago about law and love...another debate. Not sure that it applies much to this topic, so take it or leave it.
I am more interested in why you have not understood Women, and think that you never could. Do you care to explain why you think this way?
Peace.
Mickiel,
I am so intrigued by this topic. Thank you so much for posting it. It makes this painful call that God has on my life all the more worth it. There are nuggets of encouragement in this post and a personal confirmation to press on in what is personally painful in my life, but know I have to walk through. I have not walked it perfectly, but God is taking me to higher place where I need to choose to submit and stop wrestling with it. He gives me glimpses of how suffering for Him is not in vain...which keeps me going. Otherwise, I would just be crazy to keep walking through this. I can't even put into words how God spoke to me through this..thank you!
All I can say is that it gives me even greater inspiration to reverse the curse..so to speak...to walk in the truth of being a woman and thankfully accepting my role in the world. Eventhough unseen by many, God uses the foolish things to confound the wise. Simple surrender to crush satan under our feet. Thank you for acknowledging us. It is incredibly hard loving someone that you are called to and they do not see these truths. It is hard to keep my love from growing cold. Reading your post has encouraged me to no allow it to for that would give satan victory in my life and family.
Quote from: Stardust75 on February 28, 2008, 02:41:20 PM
All I can say is that it gives me even greater inspiration to reverse the curse..so to speak...to walk in the truth of being a woman and thankfully accepting my role in the world. Eventhough unseen by many, God uses the foolish things to confound the wise. Simple surrender to crush satan under our feet. Thank you for acknowledging us. It is incredibly hard loving someone that you are called to and they do not see these truths. It is hard to keep my love from growing cold. Reading your post has encouraged me to no allow it to for that would give satan victory in my life and family.
Well good for you, our relsationship with God needs to be made sure, and every year, no matter where I am posting, at times during the year, I will specifically target women, and give them a few things. I think I need to start doing this with teenagers, something I never do.
Electricity natrually seeks to get to the ground, as thunder strikes from the air. Remember that satan is a " Prowler" and he naturally is " Seeking to Devour." And its natural for satan to do this, he does not think he is doing wrong. For the Lion, the reason it hunts is to eat and survive. satan is different, he does not have to eat, he hunts out of hatred. And he really hates women with a passion. There are several reasons for this. He hates men too, and Women keep having these humans he hates, keep recycling them on the earth, over and over again, they keep repopulating the earth. So satan hates women because they keep replenising the ranks. He also hates women because he reconizes Gods plan of universal salvation, but that plan couldnot be accomplished without women. God wants a very, very big family, but instead of creating them outright instantly, he decided to continually reproduce them through the womb of a woman. So women are a main pivot of Gods master plan.
he also hates women because of their " Love." Two things I know about Women that I know is a specific creation from God is this: they were designed to endure Pain, and designed to contain Love. Designed to hold both, and these two things equals honor and reward from God, if I know God.
Women do what they do because of whats in them. There is a lot of Love in them. God has blessed me to have a very, very good woman in my life. Its NOTHING like having a good woman, nothing. And I invest all that is in me , in treating her as best as I can. And I refuse to let myself NOT pay attention to MY promise to MYself, to always improve in my dealings with her. Because I already know that she is a gift from God, specfic for me. What kind of a fool would I be to abuse a gift from God?
Sometimes I just watch her, the way that she is, the things that she does. Now this woman has her own house, but EVERY time she comes over to mine, the first thing she does is clean the place, although its never a mess, but its ever a mess, because she always cleans it. Now I have never ask her to do this, she just does it. Wash the dishes, take my clothes home with her and wash them. whatever the place needs, and I mean whatever it needs from cleaning materials to whatever, she goes out and gets it. What ever she sees or just thinks that I need, she goes out and gets it, and I mean that day. And I have never asked her to do this in 3 years. If she sees a little scratch on me she tends to it. If see sees a little piece of lint on my clothes, she takes it off. I don't want to make this list long, because I can, suffice it to say that this woman helps me and will do anything for me. I am the man, but goodness, this woman is taking care of me. And gets irritated if I try to stop her from doing it.
What this does is cause you to respond in like manner, and her goodness, will circle around and cause you to be good to her. Now if a man was like that to his woman, always good to her, but this man meets a woman who likes being good to her man, when two people like this get together, then you have a good relationship.
But what about a relationship where one of the two, is not in Love or not being good? And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Some people interpret Adam as our spirit (male) and Eve as our soul (female). As such, we can see why Paul speaks about the woman (female) not speaking in the assembly. This is because we must hear from the Spirit.
Our spirit must listen to God's Spirit, not the soul. I agree with Mickiel that Adam has a weakness for Eve. And still today, many times we listen to our soul and not the Spirit of God. And when our soul leads our spirit, we are in trouble. It should be the spirit leading the soul.
So our spirit can be "led by the Spirit of God" or "led by our soul." One leads to life, the other leads to death.
I believe this is why in another place Paul writes that in Christ there is neither male nor female. On an earthly level, we are all equal. In the assembly, it must be our spirit that speaks what it hears directly from the Spirit of God. God is Spirit. They that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. And we are made in His image, because we are also spirit.
Just some thoughts I had..
Love to all,
Brian
Quote from: Mickiel on February 27, 2008, 08:18:55 PM
When God assigns pain it is really an honor, to both believer and non believer, because you have been chosen to suffer.
Wow can you talk more about this? Perhaps in another forum thread, since it may be off topic for this one.
I'm a chronic pain survivor, 4 years of non-ending physical pain, and now vigilence against it to maintain a better quality of life.
How is suffering an honor?
Quote from: gr8wuf on February 28, 2008, 04:35:46 PM
Quote from: Mickiel on February 27, 2008, 08:18:55 PM
When God assigns pain it is really an honor, to both believer and non believer, because you have been chosen to suffer.
Wow can you talk more about this? Perhaps in another forum thread, since it may be off topic for this one.
I'm a chronic pain survivor, 4 years of non-ending physical pain, and now vigilence against it to maintain a better quality of life.
How is suffering an honor?
Well I don't mind hitting on it a bit. One thing God required Jesus to do, was to suffer, whenever a human is required to do, what Jesus did, that is an honor. Its a cross assigned by God to bear. When you went through those 4 years of unending pain, that was a cross that God placed you on. God placed Jesus on the cross for specific reasons, and all of humanity will benefit from it. Our pain is no different, either we, or others will benefit from it. The benefit will come often immediately, or down the road, or even manifest itself in Eternity, but it will benefit. Such is the way with God, pain has a purpose, we just often cannot reconize the purpose of it, at least I know I do not.
We need to believe that when God hurts, it will help, because the wound of a friend is always faithful. But listen, humans are destined for honor, weather they suffer much or not. When we walk into Gods Kingdom, the billions of Angels, who are a creation NOTHING like us, will honor us forever. WHY? Well these Angels, and all other beings created in Heaven, NONE of them have EVER suffered, none of them. Look at this mess we are going through, the Pain, the suffering, the confusion, the troubles, the sin and constant evil, nobody in Heaven BUT Christ has had to live like this and constantly deal with life on this level.
Everyone in Heaven has had constant Peace, unheard of Joy, Love at unlimited levels, no sin, no evil, no deception, and Jesus and God right there with them for untold billions of eternitys time. Well eternity is timeless, but you get the point. They NEVER have had anything but perfection and Pure God. Were not talking about a tortured prisioner of war returning home, Heaven will welcome humans as the finest creation of God ever! What we are going through now, is utter insanity to them. Its like they are watching God create something, but dragging the creation process through incredible heartwrenching pain and mental anguish and physical suffering, which has NEVER been, nor will ever be again.
This is the " Honor" in suffering. No creation of God has even been asked to endure this, we were not asked. The weight was placed on us by God. That is a very special burden which God himself takes very seriously. He never has created anything to suffer, except man. This solidfys our place in Heaven as an honorable one. We will be unique in many areas, suffering just one of them, being in flesh another. Dealing with sin another. Dealing with satan another. Kept from God another. And just use your meditation to add to this list, just think of all the areas that we exist in, that Spirit beings have not. Each one is an honor.
Peace.
Lightning starts from the ground and goes up. Just an interesting factoid.
Despite its confident appearance, a lightning flash develops in fits and starts. The path of a typical cloud-to-ground (CG) flash lowering negative charge to earth is carved by a series of stepped leaders, each moving a bundle of charge a distance on the order of a city block. Each step takes only 1 microsecond or so, but the pauses between steps are much longer--on the order of 50 microseconds. At each step, the bolt may shift direction toward a stronger electric field, thus creating its crooked appearance. As a CG flash approaches several regions of opposite charge on the ground, it often branches into several parts.
Just before it reaches ground, the step leader induces a huge electric potential (some 10 million volts), enough to bring up surges of positive charge from sharp objects or irregularities near the ground. Once the impulses meet--a few tens of meters above earth--the connection is established and the return stroke zips upward at a rate much faster than the stepped leader's descent. It is this return stroke that produces the visible flash as it heats surrounding air to 30,000 degrees C (54,000 degrees F), which in turn creates the shock wave we hear as thunder. http://www.ucar.edu/communications/infopack/lightning/faq.html
Satan doesn't hate women. He hates God. That hatred extends to Adam, the son of God.
It was Adam he was after not Eve, but he had to get to Adam through Eve because Adam was not deceived and could not be deceived.
And, satan knows exactly what he is doing, as do all liars and murderers.
Like all psychopaths, satan knows what he does is wrong but he doesn't care.
QuoteI believe this is why in another place Paul writes that in Christ there is neither male nor female. On an earthly level, we are all equal. In the assembly, it must be our spirit that speaks what it hears directly from the Spirit of God. God is Spirit. They that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. And we are made in His image, because we are also spirit.
Excellent! Thanks!
Quote from: Mickiel on February 28, 2008, 05:21:20 PM
Our pain is no different, either we, or others will benefit from it. The benefit will come often immediately, or down the road, or even manifest itself in Eternity, but it will benefit.
Thanks so much Mickiel. You've started my brain thinking. I know from experience that my journey through suffering has blessing, not just to myself, but to others. The blessing continues as I meet others who suffer and I am able to minister hope and encouragement.
But I never thought of it from the perspective of honor. Blessings to your for sharing.
Quote from: gr8wuf on February 28, 2008, 05:39:20 PM
Quote from: Mickiel on February 28, 2008, 05:21:20 PM
Our pain is no different, either we, or others will benefit from it. The benefit will come often immediately, or down the road, or even manifest itself in Eternity, but it will benefit.
Thanks so much Mickiel. You've started my brain thinking. I know from experience that my journey through suffering has blessing, not just to myself, but to others. The blessing continues as I meet others who suffer and I am able to minister hope and encouragement.
But I never thought of it from the perspective of honor. Blessings to your for sharing.
Well its defintely an honor. In your thinking , consider this; Even Jesus suffering was not exactly like ours. Jesus was literally conceived by the Holy Spirit, then through the flesh of a woman. He then lived his human life in the flesh and defeated sin. We were not conceived by the Holy Spirit, and had to face life without it, until it comes to be within, which I won't get into on this post. Even if people do have the Holy Spirit, they still had to live most of their lives without it. Then Jesus had prior experience with God, he had already been with God for an awful long time, we have never been with God. So we humans suffer from a unique perspective, and female suffering is a unique perspective.
In Phil. 1:29;"For to you it has been granted for Christ sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake." Here again is the honor, the priviledge to do something , which is going to be painful, for Christ " Sake", sake means purpose or intrest, it means benefit.
You know, let me say something here; Its almost as if God created humanity , and then put us all in a type of " Coma", think of Romans 11:32, where God has shut up all into disobedience, a coma of sorts, then placed us into a womb, or the earth, then deals with us in our conscious and unconscious pain. Having to be in this kind of existence is an honor within itself, and the womb itself, or the earth, is groaning and reeling from the pain, and even the womb, or the earth, is wanting to get out of this mess, this misery. The analogys to the female here is eye opening and of intrest to me, and I am a man.
Well the earth will be released from this misery and renewed, and so will humanity. In Rom. 8:18 we can see how God plans on honoring humanity, and the honor willnot be even worthy to compare to our present suffering. Your 4 years of continual suffering is a highlight to celestrial beings of your greatness, they may ask you about it and marvel at you because you had to endure it.
You know, I think some of us have suffered so much that we just have gotten " Numb", literally accustomed to it, used to it, even expect it. Its like we have been in a war all of our lives, and to an extent we have.
Peace.
In Relationships Women have far more to deal with than men, I think much more responsibility, and this can be a weight to bear. Knowing some may disagree with this, it is my view of things, from what I can understand. Being a janitor much of my life, in housekeeping there is a well know fact; female restrooms are much harder to clean than males. Males generally mess up one particular area, the toliet, and don't spend much time in the other areas, with females this is different, they utilize every area in the restroom, and generally spend more time there than males. They even often bring children into the restroom with them. Females use more " Utensils" than males, use more cosmectics, bring in more objects with them, and take more objects out of the restroom. Amoungst housekeepers, we think this is so because Women have " More things with them" than males. Or just more responsibility.
This is true in any comparrison to a " Purse" and a " Wallet". Females " Carry" more things on their person than males. Its no telling what a Woman may have in her Purse, just all kinds of things. Lipstick, Lotion, wallets inside of the purse, brushes, combs, phones, pens, candy, q-tips, gum, money, keys and paper, and who knows whatelse. I once saw a woman pull some house shoes out of her purse. Often the mentality behind this, is to always be prepared. Which, in a sense, means to always be responsible for a " Need" which has to be fulfilled.
Women do most of the grocery shopping in relationships, most of the cooking and cleaning. The " Dirty Jobs" in the house. They tend to the children the most, and what is more important than that. Many women are breaking away from these molds, because they grow tired of it, such weight, such responsibility. And in the midst of this, there is a spirit comming after them, trying to encourage them to let these things, this " Weight of responsibility", be changed into more of a burden or a " Trap", and look to influence them to let their Love grow cold.
And I want to go futher into that.
Peace.
I could have copied your entire reply here but ... the reply regarding suffering ... it's really a refreshing perspective and nearly an answer to prayer that I have offered up many times over the years.
My suffering nearly drove me to the brink of insanity, and I had to make a choice. And I chose to see the blessing. I remember being a heap of tears on my bedroom floor crying out for release, not knowing if I could go another day, and I found hope.
But, in this life I consider myself an empath of sorts. Does that make sense or sound too corny? I am highly affected by the emotions and sufferings and pains of others around me. Over the years I have cried out to God that I am too sensitive for this world, feeling that the enormity of human suffering would destroy me.
Your comments have given me great joy in my spirit.
Quote from: gr8wuf on February 28, 2008, 09:05:34 PM
I could have copied your entire reply here but ... the reply regarding suffering ... it's really a refreshing perspective and nearly an answer to prayer that I have offered up many times over the years.
My suffering nearly drove me to the brink of insanity, and I had to make a choice. And I chose to see the blessing. I remember being a heap of tears on my bedroom floor crying out for release, not knowing if I could go another day, and I found hope.
But, in this life I consider myself an empath of sorts. Does that make sense or sound too corny? I am highly affected by the emotions and sufferings and pains of others around me. Over the years I have cried out to God that I am too sensitive for this world, feeling that the enormity of human suffering would destroy me.
Your comments have given me great joy in my spirit.
Well yes, I understand. The brink of insanity is a place not many have been, where your mind is turned inside out and you pray for death or release. A Magnifying glass does not change what we are looking at, it just enhances the view. Suffering can be simular in that it changes our view of things, and often gives a much better view, espically when we have personally endured its intensity. Being a woman is already living as a sensitive being, going through intense suffering adds to that with more sensitivity, and then being a target of satan, just adds more sensivity to that. So being a female period is compounded sensitivity within itself. Then you add the pressure from spouses and children, the society around you and the cares of this world and you have a melting pot of suffering which produces even more sensivity.
But from sensivity can come much " Discernment", a Spiritual Radar that can see and sense what others cannot. Having such a gift can keep you from walking into walls or traps that could be bait laid from the forces that be against God and your life. And discernment is something I think females are well suited for.
Peace.
Mickiel (and others),
I am not finished reading through this post, but I wanted to share a personal experience in response to your comment "And he really hates women with a passion."
Many years ago(funny seems like just yesterday), when my husband and I were still together God was giving me some insight into spiritual warfare. My husband use to go out to the bar and I would get upset because I did not get married to be alone. Well, I made a decision to really start using that time to be with the Lord and pray for my husband instead of being miserable about it (still have'nt mastered that lesson yet..LOL..but I have grown leaps and bounds in it..just not as mature as I would like to be). Anyway, I decided I was going to start on such and such a night, and I actually fell asleep! I awoke when my husband came home and was really disappointed that I did not follow through with what I had planned. So, I decided to spend that time anyway. I had about a couple of hours praying and worshipping God and then feel asleep. Now, what I experienced next very well could have been a nightmare, but I truly believe it was a real experience. I was in the sleep state where your body is paralyzed and my eyes were half open. I was lying on the couch and I could see the light coming into the living room from the kitchen. The next thing I know there is this dark face with dark eyes nose to nose with me. Absolute HATERD was permeating from this being toward me!!! I heard literal growling like there was a vicious animal in the living room. I was truly gripped with fear and my first thought was "oh my God this is satan!!" Instantly, the Lord told me he's just trying to scare you, you must rebuke him in My Name. So, I did and I started just saying, but the fear was so intense that his attack seemed to intensify. The Lord said, "No, you must really believe that I am more powerful then him and keep rebuking him. So, I truly did and the devil fleed. I then woke up like I just came out of a coma or a drunken stupor...grabbing for the nearest light, grabbing my bible..it was quite intense!!! I don't think I will ever forget that to this day and this happened about 10 years ago...can't say I have experienced anything like it since...
Mickiel
Good stuff :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Stardust75 on February 29, 2008, 12:19:48 PM
Mickiel (and others),
I was lying on the couch and I could see the light coming into the living room from the kitchen. The next thing I know there is this dark face with dark eyes nose to nose with me. Absolute HATERD was permeating from this being toward me!!! I heard literal growling like there was a vicious animal in the living room. I was truly gripped with fear and my first thought was "oh my God this is satan!!" Instantly, the Lord told me he's just trying to scare you, you must rebuke him in My Name. So, I did and I started just saying, but the fear was so intense that his attack seemed to intensify. The Lord said, "No, you must really believe that I am more powerful then him and keep rebuking him. So, I truly did and the devil fleed. I then woke up like I just came out of a coma or a drunken stupor...grabbing for the nearest light, grabbing my bible..it was quite intense!!!
Many people I know have had experiences like this, and many times it happens only once - and usually fairly early in their walk with Christ. It happens in between consciousness and sleep and though the fear seems overwhelming, we always win.
I see this as an activation of the spirit man to battle. Our flesh is terrified, and the spirit man presses through and deals with the situation.
Mickiel, although I'm not always a huge fan of your threads, this one IMO has definitely brought out great points for consideration and discussion. Thank you.
blessings,
- Byron
Quote from: gr8wuf on February 28, 2008, 09:05:34 PM
My suffering nearly drove me to the brink of insanity, and I had to make a choice. And I chose to see the blessing. I remember being a heap of tears on my bedroom floor crying out for release, not knowing if I could go another day, and I found hope.
But, in this life I consider myself an empath of sorts. Does that make sense or sound too corny? I am highly affected by the emotions and sufferings and pains of others around me.
Hi again Jeanne,
There's nothing corny about being an empath. If anyone thinks so - trying it on for size would cure that thought :bigGrin:. Personally, I appreciate my role as one who feels pain rather than one who causes it. I'm not saying I've never caused pain, but I'm talking in generalities here.
Mickiel, I want to compliment you again on some of the points you brought out. Excellent.
Jeanne, also consider this: He's trusted you with those scars, and trusted in His ability to cause you to choose life. When we are pushed to the edge, then over the edge - only to learn that "nothing shall by any means harm you", there's great freedom in that. I would never trade a 'good' life for a 'free' life.
blessings,
- Byron
Hello Byron,
interesting..that experience happened when I was just under 2 years in the Lord..so, yeah I was pretty young in the Lord. Do you also post on the Open Heaven forum? There is another Byron on there..it's not a very common name, so I was just wondering?
Quote from: Stardust75 on February 29, 2008, 02:13:31 PM
Hello Byron,
interesting..that experience happened when I was just under 2 years in the Lord..so, yeah I was pretty young in the Lord. Do you also post on the Open Heaven forum? There is another Byron on there..it's not a very common name, so I was just wondering?
That's not me, but you're right - it's not very common. In fact, I've only personally met one other person with my name in my whole life.
- byron
oh that's weird..yeah he calls himself Byron Putnam
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 29, 2008, 01:25:20 PM
Personally, I appreciate my role as one who feels pain rather than one who causes it. I'm not saying I've never caused pain, but I'm talking in generalities here.
I can certainly relate to that. In general I try at all cost to avoid hurting others, but there are situations where it is unavoidable, as in speaking the truth in love. Even then I generally am well received.
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 29, 2008, 01:25:20 PM
Jeanne, also consider this: He's trusted you with those scars, and trusted in His ability to cause you to choose life. When we are pushed to the edge, then over the edge - only to learn that "nothing shall by any means harm you", there's great freedom in that. I would never trade a 'good' life for a 'free' life.
That's the strange thing about coming through suffering well to the other side of it. On this side of suffering, there is joy. Hind sight shows me what a blessing the experience actually was.
There is a difference in how satan attacks a woman and a man. I was reading the sisters story about her dream and how terrified she was. If you look at Matt.4:1-11, satans attack on Jesus, we see satans strongest suites being put forth. Here Jesus , a male, is being assualted by the devil. What we then see from satan is his best and most powerful deceptions, he could not defeat Jesus unless he threw his best evil distortions at him. Notice what they are; If you are the son of God, command that these stones become bread. An " Ego Dare" coupled with a deception that if you don't do something, you may die. So satan will mess with a males Ego, try to get him to flex his muscles and deal with his head in matters that concern his strength.
Secondly, " If you are the son of God, throw yourself down, For it is Written." Again Ego suggestion, but coupled this time with the Scriptures. satan will go after a males Ego, and use the Bible to do that. Get his Ego involved in the Bible and use Knowledge to mess with his mind. satan does not mind the " Always Learning", he in fact uses it, its the " Never able to come to the truth" which is his focus. Lastly satan uses " Glory" to get at Males, he entices their " Coveting" or their ambition, espically their Spiritual ambition, and he offers Christ all the Kingdoms of the World and their Glory.
His assualt on Females is different, because female is an entirely different creature. She is an emotional and sensitive creature, these things are part of her being, so satan will go after a woman, through her Emotional content. Because to get to her, he often has to effect her Love.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Jesus Astute remark about the Love of many growing Cold, is a signiture sign that satan is attacking a stallworth glue that holds society together, that holds familys together, that " Helps keep MEN together", and such noticable credit is hardly ever given to his target, Womens Emotions. Perhaps looked upon by men as a miniscule thing, Love has a lot to do with a Woman. So often Men will present things to God, and yet have things against their brother, and just ignore that. Women are decively different, they pay attention to what is going on in the family, and go over it each day.
I know this is not possible, but if we could hear the prayers of a Woman, and then compare them with the prayers of a man, we could see, as God already sees, a whole " Differing type of approach and mentality", a whole different attititude and concern. And it is this " Female Concern", this Female approach, that satan must get to in order to disrupt the Love that flows through humanity.
I know this maynot be a good example, but did you notice Hilary Clinton shed some Tears once during her campain, and the pundits thought that was a " Showing of Strength" for her, and actually helped her in the polls. Well one thing, when a Woman runs for office, often she must show the characteristics of a man, just to seem strong. But when she showed her " Emotional content", many viewed that as her " Being more human", strangely enough. Because she was being herself. Its like a male showing the charactheristics of a woman, is often viewed as a weakness, so male politicians always try to portray a strong image. But the Woman is expected to show male charactheristics or she couldnot be viable. This is really confusion and one reason why our politics is confused. People are " Loosing" the charactheristics of Love, the strength of Love, even in our politics, our leadership.
Again Jesus in Matt. 15:32;" I feel Compassion for the multitude." Jesus was a very strong man, but he was a " Loving Man." He had very strong feelings and a whole lot of Love for people. And this kind of leadership will hold a people together.
As a nut, if you tighten it down, will hold very tightly in place whatever you lock it down on , Love will do the same thing, it holds things together. Conversely, if you want to see a society become disrupted and chaotic, you loosen Loves grip on it. Sadly enough when a group of men attack a town and pilage it, they almost always rape the Women. And listen, satan is no different, in fact that mentality comes from satan, he is the one who really goes after the women. And he has his reasons for thinking like that. He knows the threat that they are to him. And I want to touch on that a bit.
Peace.
Mickiel,
On the first page of this post you wrote:
But what about a relationship where one of the two, is not in Love or not being good? And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Did you expand on this yet..because I am not sure that I see it anywhere? I'm very interested in what you have to say about it..
Quote from: Stardust75 on February 29, 2008, 08:32:35 PM
Mickiel,
On the first page of this post you wrote:
But what about a relationship where one of the two, is not in Love or not being good? And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Did you expand on this yet..because I am not sure that I see it anywhere? I'm very interested in what you have to say about it..
Oh I apoligise for that oversight, I'm kind of moving all over the place with this. In counseling the main goal should be to mend and heal, if you can, but often you cannot, but such a decision should never be made by the counselor, but by the couple themselves. A good counselor will reconize in themselves what they see, and if they know what they see is illreconcilible, they they will work on that aspect, and try to get at the one who is being hurt the most, which is usually the Woman. The bible approaches this no differently, it advises the same, if the one who is being hurt the most, is still pleased to stay and keep enduring, then so be it.
If the one who is not in Love and not feeling good about the relationship , has not decided to leave, then that must be questioned? Why are you staying? Is it for " Gain or security." Is it because its " Cheaper to keep her?" What is the motivation that binds, since it is not Love? That needs to be found and considered, espically by the one who is in Love and who does feel good about the relationship. Are you staying with someone who does not want you, but is then " Using you" for their own selfish purpose? Are children involved, is money and property involved? Why are they staying with you, and why are you letting them stay?
Are you more in Love with the "Ideal of being in Love?" And just refuse to live without that Ideal. Are you overly concerned with Image, such as what family and friends will think about you if your relationship fails? As you can begin to see, so very much can be involved. Now there are some definte things to draw the line on, no matter who counsels you. If you are being physically abused, then you should leave the relationship. If your children are being physically abused, you should leave, I would make no exceptions to this, but thats just me and how I see it. I wouldnot even try to deal with this in a person, if a woman hits me, the relationship is over. Because I would never hit her. If my woman has physical relations with another man, the relationship is over, I do not tolerate adultry, period. Because I would never do that to her. And I am just giving examples about the areas that I personally draw the line, each must draw their own, BUT, you MUST have lines drawn, or personal standards in relationships that you willnot go beyond, and will not let others go beyond it on you. You have to do this.
You have to know when to get together with someone, and just as much, when to leave them. The bible speaks of horrible times to come where men will be selfish, greedy, hateful, liars and so on, if for some strange unwise reason you get tied to a person like this, you need to really get your thinking striaght and focus on what you have done to yourself, and why. I think its unwise to attack yourself to a foolish person, and its " Proof' that you yourself have been foolish. The old addition stands true; One foolishness, plus another foolishness, will produce more foolishness, which is why we see so much foolishness in our children.
I have very high standards " In Myself", concerning the women I even would get into a relationship with. I'll give an example; I do not date women who have bad tempers. Who do not work. Who cannot control themselves. Who cannot get along with their children. Who take drugs or have drinking problems. Who are lazy. Who do not keep themselves up. Who are selfish. Who do not keep themselves clean or their home clean. Not the list is longer, but I do NOT give myself exceptions to these things. They are lines I have drawn and willnot tolerate anything less, and I do not do these things myself to the woman. I do not want a woman who does not treat me at least as good as I treat myself.
So we need to develop certain standards in relationships, and live by them. Don't even deal with people in a relationship that do not meet your standards. Don't settle for less. And if what you now have is not for you, then you need to deal with that now, because each day you waste, you are wasteing yourself.
Peace.
:cloud9: Good thread, Mickiel. Stardust 75, I had the same problem with my X husband. I've shared this before but I could literally tell when he was home, not by sounds or his presence, but by the presence of what came in the house when he did.
I prayed about it, and the Lord led me to start binding the things outside. So every time he hit the bars, I prayed and told the mess it had to stay outside and could not come in my home, and I anointed all the windows and doors with oil and prayed over them regularly. I could tell it was working, but to build my new faith, the Lord did something funny.
One evening one of my Christian friends came to the door. She rang the doorbell, and when I opened the door, she was a flurry of mad activity, brushing her arms and shoulders off, and praying furiously in the Spirit. :mshock:
My jaw dropped, and she testily exclaimed, "Have you been binding those things outside again? Next time tell them to stay out in the street! They all tried to jump on me when I came to the door!" :laughing7:
So my speculation is, what you saw, followed him home. Blessings to all.......
The Dynamic of loosing Love is not like anyother. In Relationships, when you are the one who is being cheated on, abused and unloved, you may have to " Prepare yourself to Loose Love." This does not mean you have to stop Loving the person, you just have to stop them from abusing your Life and your Love. Eccle. 3:5;" There is a time to embrace and a time to " Shun" embracing." Vs.6;" A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away."
Preparing yourself to loose Love is a type of " Death", because part of you must die, so that it can be ressurected and Live again. This is something that the Woman must realize, if your Love is being wasted , then that needs to be confronted and dealt with, the drain on you must stop. If it does not, why waste the years in pain, you will survive to Love again. But if you spend years of being drained, then it could ruin your emotions. And it may take years for you to heal. You look at all the years you have been drained to dry, all the Love life sucked right out of you by some selfish man. Then you count the years it will take you to heal, the next thing you know, your old and emotionless, and men don't look as much as they used to. All because you wanted to give some man more time to hurt you.
Love is not allowing some man to tear you apart because you think your keeping Gods standards of being a good wife. When a man has broken his vows, broken your heart or your bones, ruined the relationship, save your life and Love for another day, you will be ressurected to a better Love. Armed with much more experience, you can still survive and keep your Love intact.
Peace.
I will chew om this..pray om this..
Amazing Cardinal! I do not get this..how is it we can pray against these things and they still become ex-husbands??
Why are'nt they healed and delivered and our marriages made whole? Choices? I still wait on God...
Quote from: Stardust75 on March 01, 2008, 04:40:13 PM
I will chew om this..pray om this..
Amazing Cardinal! I do not get this..how is it we can pray against these things and they still become ex-husbands??
Why are'nt they healed and delivered and our marriages made whole? Choices? I still wait on God...
Well they are healed and made whole, at a rate of 40 out of 100, and that is reducing quickly. This 60% shows the divorce ratio, so some marriages are working, most are not. So sometimes its works to wait, most of the time it does not. However, I would totally disagree that waiting on a human to change, is waiting on God, no, I don't agree with that, if that is what a person is doing.
Which brings up another interesting point, will God heal a person in a marriage that is breaking the union apart. Well yes, God can always heal, but look at the divorce rate, it suggest that God is not healing most of the time, which suggest to me that God is NOT involved most of the time. So many people are waiting on a God, who is not going to get involved with their relationship anyway. God only involves himself with humans, when he has a reason, and prayer is a reason. Or his will is a reason. When married couples are linked to God is some kind of way, they are blessed, but marriages work between two who are not linked to God at all, so unity in marriage exist outside of Gods influence also. And that needs to be understood.
If one person in the marriage is linked to God, then the unlinked one could be linked to God later, " Through" the linked one, but ONLY if the unlinked one " Desires to stay." ( 1 Corinth.7:13) They must give their consent, their Love must be at Liberty, their mind made up, only then can the Link between the believer be attached to the unbeliever, and they be attached to God. So " Free Will" does exist in Marriage, and God respects that will, that choice. Which is why I said eariler, you need to understand WHY a person is choosing to stay with you. Do they really Love you? Is their heart really with you, but their head is just messed up. If their heart is with you, but their head is just messed up, then there is something there to show some hope. At least the person Loves you, and depending on the level of abuse they are handing out, it may be worth something to remain. If they are physically abusing you, I think the line should be drawn, and you should leave. But if you have thick skin and a thick skull, if you can endure it, then just try to be a good punching bag, and absorb the punishment as best you can. Your Love may win out.
People arn't being healed in marriages mainly for two reasons; God is not involved, and one of the two does not WANT the marriage to continue.
Peace.
:cloud9: Well, I'll answer with the Lord spoke thru me in a dream/vision to speak to him. He said, "The Lord said to take your things and get out. He said to tell you this is because you first broke covenant with Him, and then you broke covenant with me."
Repentance is an essential component. The Lord showed me that people that are not covenant keepers with Him, CANNOT keep covenant with others, as the oil flows from the head down to the feet. True covenant comes from Him and thru Him. We are not to keep covenant with others first, and expect the Lord to bless something He had nothing to do with, as that stems from idolatry. But if we keep covenant with God first, and let Him lead us into covenant relationship, then the covenant is kept automatically because of our covenant relationship with Him, which we will not break. The scripture said whom GOD has joined together........the problem was I didn't know God when I joined myself to him.
He also told me as He was tearing down idolatry of marriage in me, that He did not join me to him in the first place, but He honored it as long as He could until it was so destructive it was affecting every aspect of my life and my children's life. There are no answers set in stone; each situation is different and the Lord may want to handle it differently and we have to hear what the Lord would say to us individually. Blessings to all.......
Its not an easy thing to guage how Love is growing colder in society, but the divorce rates do help some, but even they are unrelible, because they keep changing. Some years they get better, but most of the time, they grow worse. For example, in 2003, the divorce rate was 56%. In 2005, 65% of new marriages ended in divorce, And those who were in their third marriage divorced 77% of the time. In 1991 it was 47%, in 2002 it dropped to 38%. And then some states do worse than others, In Ark. its 61%, Nevada 64%, West Vir., Wyom. and Idaho it was 50% in 2004. Oak. , Ten., Kentucky and Fla. were not far behing at 49%. So the stats don't look good at all, espically if you include China, France, Germany and Japan, they get really bad.
And in biblical times, it was starting to get cold even back then. Listen to the Apostle Paul in 1Corinth. 7:29;" But this I say brethren , the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none." Paul actually discourages marriage here, and that is made plain in vs.30-34. His point was that married people tend to focus on their mates, often more than they do God. And we can see Pauls being single comming out of him here, influencing his teachings. In vs. 35;" And I say this for your own benefit, not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is seemly, and to secure " Undistracted Devotion to the Lord."
Paul goes even futher in giving his personal opinion in vs. 39-40, stateing that if a womans husband dies, he thinks she would be better off not to even re- marry, but to remain as she is, then astoundingly gets rather gosh by stateing that " He Thinks he has Gods Spirit", as if to state that he has some weight behind his opinions, which I think he did. But Paul sensed even way back then that things were going to change in marriage, he was just way ahead of his time.
Just as we will witness and have witnessed the highest gasoline prices ever, we shall see skyrocketing divorce rates, during our lifetime. Because the Love of many will grow Colder.
Peace.
Cardinal,
I agree we do have to hear from God personally! He has truly had me on an interesting journey!!! I have no doubt, no doubt of His hand, his involvement in my life and family...I truly stand in awe! I have been like the israelites at times...see literal signs of His movement/speaking to me, and then next day in unbelief and complaining! What lessons! It's interesting because the story is not all played out yet, but I am truly walking through something where most would think I'm crazy, but God has led so profoundly and I have enough fear of Him (in a good sense), that I would be foolish to jump off now. Emotions have been the hardest for me though..I truly have made some mistakes along the way...and even in the past few months made a couple of unwise decisions (the same one 4 times)...Amazing to see God's mercy because the first time I cried for 2 weeks and all the Lord did was comfort me through my very emotional grief and confusion. The last time it happened, He has clearly said not now. Not sure what the consequences will be...But that is something I cannot worry about just purpose to be more in tune to His leading. Cardinal, I understand what you are saying, the Lord has given me those same insights..however, for some reason He has a different dealing with my ex-husband and I. There have been times where I could be easily swayed by the opinions of others, but God has so personally moved that I know I cannot. I will struggle in my mind when confronted with that persuasion, but I am quickly reminded of all that God has done and is doing and I have to walk through it. There truly have been times where I have wondered if I am truly hearing from Him and He always confirms it. I have picked it apart so much and have even asked Him if he giving me delusion because I have such a desire to be restored. I do not think that's the case, but I am open to His correction. However, this has not been a too good to be true type of thing...many, many real lessons and trials and even some victories. He is the victory giver and He gets al the glory!! Anyway, something He showed me over the past 2 days was He spoke to Moses about Pharaoh, so don't guage whether I am speaking to you based on how things are going. Pharoah did not respond well. Also, He showed me He desires the Offender and the victim both to be healed and restored, however, if the offender does not repent (but continues to harden his heart..as did Pharaoh), His child will still be healed and delivered. As evidenced with Pharoah..His glory was still displayed eventhough Pharoah responded with a hard heart. God says, I will deliver my children whether you let them go or not!!! Oh His heart!
:cloud9: Stardust, I understand completely what you are saying. My only advice would be to ask Him to consume your emotions with the fire of His Spirit, so that the motive of them is brought under the rein of the Spirit and not the soul. As someone who was tormented with emotions most of my life until He led me to do this, I can vouch for it's effectiveness. We don't realize how much we are led by emotions until He cuts those cords to our heart, so that we are only moved by His Spirit instead. Ahhhh, the rest of the Lord.......... :happygrin:
Blessings to you in your walking out of His perfect will in your life........
Often with " Spiritual people", or believers, the thing in Relationships has little to do with what we want and desire, as compared to what God wants and desires for us. And when those two things differ then we have stepped into something that God didnot desire for us, we led ourselves into it. And God willnot stop us from doing these things, because of his Patience, he's going to accomplish in you what he desires anyway. Samson went after Delilah because thats what he wanted to do, and as strong as he was, his " Coveting of her " was stronger. And he paied a strong price of suffering for his desire. Samson was very strong physically, and satan appealed to that in Samson, because his Lust was just as strong. His head was just as hard as his muscles. And Delilah sucked him dry.
There are many ways to Neglect our Salvation, and with Women, their Love for Men, is a sure way to open that neglect. And Also their Love for their Children. Many here know how I feel about the Holy Spirit dispensation for these times, how I view it differently, and I won't go into that in this Post. But I bring it up to deter to a related reality. Now, if and when God gives his Holy Spirit, or lends its Leading power with a person, then " Their Desires " are not the reason it is given. Look at Hebrews 2:4; latter part of verse;" By Gifts of the Holy Spirit " According to his OWN Will."
The " Gifts" of the Spirit are dispensated or dished out, According to Gods desires, not ours! And some Women get this mixed up. They see a Man in their Life as a Gift from God, but instead of the Man being chosen by God, he's often chosen by " Their Desire." It goes like this: I want the one who looks good, I want the one with the muscles, I want the one with the money, I want the one I already had sex with who rung my bells real good, I want the one my family wants, I want the one who is popular, and so on. Well okay, thats fine, but what if your desires do not match Gods?
The way to choose a mate, IF you are Spiritual, is to choose the one who has " Spiritual Charactheristics." Even if they are not converted, there should be " Plenty" of good charactheristics. Not just one or two, but Plenty. Well what if there is no one around like that, well then its not time to mate up. My girlfriend is not a church going deeply converted girl, but she is loaded with good characther, loaded with it, and its genuine, and she is a believer in God. If God NEVER called her, she would make a Good wife, if he did call her, she would make a good wife. So I don't have to even ask God to call her, she's already a good woman. And I am a good man to her, weather God decides to call me or not. Its not a loosing situation that " I PUT MYSELF IN." And thats how you choose a mate, you choose someone " THAT GOD WOULD CHOOSE." That God would be pleased with, not ANYONELSE, GOD!
Thats how you achieve Gods will in choosing a mate, you align yourself with someone who reminds you of HIS Godly principles. And God had to teach me this through years of increasing my wisdom, because I was such a fool, I didnot know what was good for myself. Theres not enough room for me to tell you what I went after women in my youth for first. The Coca Cola bottle shape, the body, the appitite, what their characther was like was the furthest thing from my mind. Now, what attracts me to a woman, is the SAME thing that attracts me to God! Love, Joy, Peace, Goodness, Gentleness, Patience, Longsuffering and Kindness, these are the Charactheristics that I learned to look for, and its EXACTLY why I stayed single for 14 years. Because I was not going to come this far in my learning, just to go backwards and settle for less than those Attributes in a Woman.
If you don't know what you want in a mate, Look at the fruits of the Spirit in Galations, and let that be your guide. If you are wondering what you already have in a mate, let that be your standard. Get you someone like that, or like Paul said, stay by yourself, until one like that comes along. And if there are desires that you have which make it hard for you to endure, theres where God comes in, deal with him to deal with your desires, not another human.
Peace.
The law is the description of the character of God in various applications. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Gal 514) This love fulfills in earth what is willed in the heavens. It is the coming of the Kingdom of God, "Immanuel," which is, "God with us."
"The 'fruit' of the spirit" is "fruit" singular. It is one thing: love. The rest of the list is describing attributes of love. They are segments of the same fruit: joy, peace, longsuffering (patience,) gentleness (kindness), goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance (self-control)." (Gal 522-23) The last, self control, is important for the working of an antidote to those things which are not love.
The middle, kindness, has to do with usefulnes and "agreeableness to the senses" (according to Knoch.) It corresponds to the middle beatitude, that of mercy, which is love in action, or, covenental love; in Hebrew it is the ardor to fulfill, the passionate desire to make up what is lacking, "Floods upon dry ground." Kindness in love mitigates severity of justice which is also the definition of mercy. The Greek grace, the result of having been fulfilled, is said to be God's unmerited favor; but more, it is God's working, which is only given and can't be obtained by the recipient through meriting it. Only by His intention does He manifest Himself. What is favor as an abstraction? Grace is the operative demonstration of God's presence. The Throne of God is Mercy. The Glory rests on the Mercy. This was at the center of all things in Israel. The Throne of Grace ever rules over all. Until it is established in us we have no basis for becoming the permanent abode of Christ. It is the work of God to make us useful and that "Zion" He has chosen. "Two or more in My name: there 'I am' in their midst."
"The 'fruit' of the spirit" may be called "the 'harvest' of the spirit." It is the result of God as Spirit becoming implanted in us, sharing the same body, having this life and it's presenting character in common. When His presence is yielded to, His leading followed, His thinking or emoting accepted as our own self, this is obedience to which He gives more of His Spirit. It is the way Christ the Seed is planted in us. The harvest, or, fruit, after patient persistence, is love.
The opposites of love, a kind of triangulation, are: hatred, the positive opposite; and, fear, the negative opposite.
Stardust, I understand completely what you are saying. My only advice would be to ask Him to consume your emotions with the fire of His Spirit, so that the motive of them is brought under the rein of the Spirit and not the soul. As someone who was tormented with emotions most of my life until He led me to do this, I can vouch for it's effectiveness. We don't realize how much we are led by emotions until He cuts those cords to our heart, so that we are only moved by His Spirit instead. Ahhhh, the rest of the Lord..........
Blessings to you in your walking out of His perfect will in your life........
Cardinal,
thank you for your words! It confirms how the Lord worked last night. My ex and I have been going through alot and recently have had a set back in what was growing communication. Last week the Lord gave me a mental picture of how to begin to respond to him. Last night, we had dinner together and it appeared as though he may open up a bit. He did not. I really had to control my emotions regarding this (the wall in communication has been a hard wall to break down). At the end of the evening I had to really surrender to the Lord, I told Him I really needed Him, but was really angry at the things currently happening I felt like I could not rest in His presence and I was feeling really powerless and I did not want to react and I wanted His spirit to control my emotions, so that I did not react and say anything out of anger. He Led me to Luke 10:19 and to look up the following in the dictionary and copy the various definitions that would apply to this situation.
Authority: the power to determine, ajudicate, or otherwise settle issues, the right to control or command or determine
Trample:to tread heavily, roughly or crushingly tread underfoot. to domineer harshly over to put out or extinguish by trampling
Snakes: A treacherous person; an insiduous enemy
Scorpion: arachnid; whip or scourge
Overcome: to prevail over, to gain the victory
What light and peace came over me as I meditated on that scripture in light of those definitions. I have been given power over the enemy, he does not have power over me! Power over snakes and scorpions (snake=enemy; scorpion=the whip and scourge that the enemy uses....in Christ we have power over the enemy AND the blows he goves us through whatever vessel) I could then rest in knowing that Jesus Christ in me is really in control. I did not need to focus on, fret or worry, about how my husband is acting, reacting or whatever. My weapon is peace, self-control, joy, love, and the knowledge that enemy will be defeated when exercising these things! Not maybe, not hopefully, WILL BE DEFEATED. That is the truth that is in the Word. Faith!
:cloud9: That is so cool. If you read my testimony on the other thread, I should have added that very scripture is what He had me to stand on every night my friend was under demonic attack. I literally read it out loud to what was harassing her, because He told me to. I had to come to the place in Him, and so did she, where we KNEW without a shadow of doubt who we were in Christ and who He was in us, and this was the most literal visceral way to see the power of God and His Word, in action, and let me tell you. It WORKS!
I'd say He is using him to strengthen YOUR spiritual "muscles", to bring the Christ in you to increase, while you decrease. It's ALL good, it's just hard to deal with, until we have the emotions part of us completely under control of the Spirit.
Here's a thought for you. He rebuked me once because I started crying, praying for my X, in person. The reason was, it was not His Spirit of travail crying THRU me, it was ME crying in my emotions. He told me the emotions were interfering with the flow of His Spirit thru me, and I was to command them beneath my feet right now, so that His Spirit could do the works needed thru me, as I was hindering it.
And I was, I was losing the ability to hear Him at that moment, so lost in my own pain, and it was NOT about me at that moment. So many times, He has to remind us, it's not about US, it's about Him and His will. I needed that written on my forehead for many years, LOL.........Blessings to you......
Mickiel,
Much wisdom in what you shared!!!! I do agree! I would not encourage many to follow the path God has me on..on fact I would not be one it one bit if God had not been making as clear as he had..truly I could write a book on it! Very humbling, I am still learning. But truly he has shown by experience and through his word that he has called many to uncomfortable paths..Moses, Joseph, Job, Jonah, our Savior!
I have many times asked Him if this is my desire or His, or both? When faced with different situations over the years, it is amazing what He's allowed me to learn through stubborness and obedience, literally opening and closing doors. I still do not speak so boldy as to say I know for sure how this is all going to play out. But, His guidance and things He has done really makes me stand in quiet awe, calms my questioning spirit, makes me quiety take His hand, and say in submission, "Daddy, I do not understand but I will do what you say.."
And believe me my flesh rises up and cringes at times to that...trust me!!!LOL!
Cardinal,
Wow! I can relate!!!! He did not speak to me in the exact same way..but has been emphasizing to me as well to toughen up so to speak in regards to my emotions. There was a season of travail in the Spirit, and now is a season to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might! I'm not talking unhealthy denial, I'm talking grown up, mature, I know who my Daddy is and I'm not going to act like a powerless crybaby! He's proven Himself strong on my behalf now I have to behave like I know this!
oh which thread did you post that testimony on?
Quote from: Stardust75 on March 03, 2008, 04:12:41 PM
Cardinal,
Wow! I can relate!!!! He did not speak to me in the exact same way..but has been emphasizing to me as well to toughen up so to speak in regards to my emotions. There was a season of travail in the Spirit, and now is a season to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might! I'm not talking unhealthy denial, I'm talking grown up, mature, I know who my Daddy is and I'm not going to act like a powerless crybaby! He's proven Himself strong on my behalf now I have to behave like I know this!
:cloud9: EXACTLY......and it's in the public lounge, Testimonies, under Hopeful's thread about "The God I Know". I had to look it up myself, I "lose" threads on here all the time, LOL.....
Quote from: Stardust75 on March 03, 2008, 04:08:04 PM
Mickiel,
Much wisdom in what you shared!!!! I do agree! I would not encourage many to follow the path God has me on..on fact I would not be one it one bit if God had not been making as clear as he had..truly I could write a book on it! Very humbling, I am still learning. But truly he has shown by experience and through his word that he has called many to uncomfortable paths..Moses, Joseph, Job, Jonah, our Savior!
I have many times asked Him if this is my desire or His, or both? When faced with different situations over the years, it is amazing what He's allowed me to learn through stubborness and obedience, literally opening and closing doors. I still do not speak so boldy as to say I know for sure how this is all going to play out. But, His guidance and things He has done really makes me stand in quiet awe, calms my questioning spirit, makes me quiety take His hand, and say in submission, "Daddy, I do not understand but I will do what you say.."
And believe me my flesh rises up and cringes at times to that...trust me!!!LOL!
Well quite often the Love of a Woman has a mind of its own and a very powerful grip. Just as often she has a hold on something dead, which does not Love her. There are times a person can die, and their hand is gripped aroung something so tight, that the embalmer must break their bones to release their grip. There is no honor or Spirituality, or intelligent reason for a Woman to hold on to a man who does not Love her, she is simply reacting to her emotions, which at times are stronger than her Spirit, than her Intelligence, than her relationship with God. That man she holds to can get her to do things God wouldnot want her to do. And yet she still holds to him. In such cases the Love of God willnot try to break her bones and release her grip, because God is a jealous God, he willnot interfere when we Love things more than him. He wants our Love for himself, but willnot break up our marriages and our grip on other gods, he will respect that relationship, and deal with us after we die. Thats something that we have to do. If we show ourselves to have a desire to be free from our other " Loves" then God will intervene in our flesh. He will not break up a marriage. He willnot try to displace another god that we Love. God will only do that in certain individuals who are going to impact history and cannot allow their ignorance to impact others against his will.
Peace.
:cloud9: Mickiel, you are on a roll with this one.........that was good, too........ :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 03, 2008, 05:06:51 PM
:cloud9: Mickiel, you are on a roll with this one.........that was good, too........ :thumbsup:
Well yes, God is a Jealous God, but his jealously is not human. When a human mate is jealous, they will use their power to " Do things", often violent things. I think some of us expect God to react like that and violently rip us away from our Loves. He will do no such thing, Gods jealously is respectful, intelligent, full of reason and wisdom, goodness and self control, all reasons he willnot interfere with our Loves.
We get in emotional uproars, then cry out to God to help us, 5 minutes later we get a call and we are led like a Pied Piper of emotion, down the path we have just prayed and asked for help on. Because thats what we really want to do, and its more powerful than God in us. Its simular to additction, we just can't control ourselves. God willnot intervene in addiction until we reach a point that he can reconize as submission to him, and not to your addiction. He will substain you and still feed you, give you life. But until he sees in your heart of hearts, that their is a submission to him, IN your addiction, he willnot intervene. Unless like I have said, your foolishness will impact something that he does not want impacted.
I don't think many properly understand this. God has the power to pull any of us out of anything at any time, does he, no he does not. Now I don't believe in free will, but I believe in " Blockade Will", the human will just blocking God. It blocks God, not because God is not forceful, but because he is respectful and Patient, Kind and Gentle, and very Longsuffering with our ignorance. God can wait 50 years for you to stop smoking, but he could stop you himself in .00 seconds.
So theres a lot of " Grey Area" between at what point God intervenes, and what point it is God doing things and not you, and you doing things and not God. And our emotions is certainly full of grey area, which by that I mean we can't really be sure what is God and what is us. And its just going to take a whole lot of time to work it out for two reasons, Gods Patience and our ignorance. Our relutance to let things go.
In our ignorance, we will reason to support our Loves, our Emotions, even to the Point that we will involve God. It goes something like this; I Love him, and God wants me to Love him. I Love this alcohol and its no sin to drink, God said so. I Love smoking, its not good for my body, but God will substain my body. God wants my family to stay together, even if my husband does not Love me and sleeps with other Women, I am showing God that I will remain faithful through this. And this pathology goes on and on. And we need to pray for our friends who suffer through these kinds of things, its not an easy thing to endure.
Peace.
:cloud9: That is all so true......... :thumbsup:
Mickiel,
I am responding to your post in response to mine. I will not discredit what you stated, but I think it limits God a bit...and that we really can't do. The bible is full of examples of God intervening to break idoltarous relationships and take first place in our hearts. Really, I don't think we can judge when or how God will act...in this life or the next. I definately agree that He works with our will first. He definatley wants us to willingly give them up, but He also allows circumstances to get our attention! So, maybe we are agreeing just different perspectives..
Mickiel,
you stated:
Well yes, God is a Jealous God, but his jealously is not human. When a human mate is jealous, they will use their power to " Do things", often violent things. I think some of us expect God to react like that and violently rip us away from our Loves. He will do no such thing, Gods jealously is respectful, intelligent, full of reason and wisdom, goodness and self control, all reasons he willnot interfere with our Loves.
Now correct me if I am wrong..but God appeared to be quite violent in the OT in his dealings with false gods in israel and other nations for that matter. Tearing down images, shrines, commanding women and children to be killed, etc...
What you are saying does not line up with what the bible says.
Do not get me wrong, or misunderstand me to think that it is ok for humans to act in such ways or that God would condone that. Just that God is far from reserved in His expression of jealousy in the bible. I could take this many ways and express many philosophical approaches and get into imagery and allegories and such. But let's face it...at first look God is far, far, far from being a gentleman when it comes to such things.
[quote author=Stardust75 link=topic=2211.msg22433#msg22433
Now correct me if I am wrong..but God appeared to be quite violent in the OT in his dealings with false gods in israel and other nations for that matter. Tearing down images, shrines, commanding women and children to be killed, etc...
What you are saying does not line up with what the bible says.
Do not get me wrong, or misunderstand me to think that it is ok for humans to act in such ways or that God would condone that. Just that God is far from reserved in His expression of jealousy in the bible. I could take this many ways and express many philosophical approaches and get into imagery and allegories and such. But let's face it...at first look God is far, far, far from being a gentleman when it comes to such things.
[/quote]
Well your looking at the Old covenant, and yes, God did a whole lot of violence back then, now if your view of God looks to stay in the Old Covenant, then yes, it will allow the picture of God you are trying to present. But now if your view looks to grow beyond the old covenant view of God, then show me your view of God in the New Covenant. Where is that God you look to present in the New Testement, or the Times of Christ. Did Christ act that way?
Does God act in the New as he did in the Old? No he does not. God is distancing himself from humanity and allowing Christ to establish a different approach towards humanity. Now if you think God does not conduct himself like a Gentleman, well then thats your view of God. I don't consider God as a violent being, nor do I see his nature as impulsive or angry. Nor do I try to view him with Old testement eyes.
Its almost as if your trying to say , in human expression, that God " Is no Angel", he has his bad ways. Well God is greater and more Good and Pure than any Angel. But I am not trying to change your view of God, nor do I try to pull people out of the Old Covenant into the New, you stay where your comfortable. The pattern in the bible that I see is God moving away from the hardcore approach, and moving into an age of Grace and tolerance, now thats what I see. Then he moves back to the opening of the 7 seals, and things get more violent than ever before, and never will again.
So where we are now, is the tolerant age of God, where he allows humans to do as they please.
Peace.
Quote from: Stardust75 on March 03, 2008, 09:11:52 PM
Mickiel,
I am responding to your post in response to mine. I will not discredit what you stated, but I think it limits God a bit...and that we really can't do. The bible is full of examples of God intervening to break idoltarous relationships and take first place in our hearts. Really, I don't think we can judge when or how God will act...in this life or the next. I definately agree that He works with our will first. He definatley wants us to willingly give them up, but He also allows circumstances to get our attention! So, maybe we are agreeing just different perspectives..
Well I too will respond to each of your post. And I am not trying to discredit what you say either. God did intervene in many ways of men, but I am of the view that he no longer does those things nearly as much as he did before. No longer calls near as many prophets, no longer vists the earth in no manner as much as he did. No longer gives physical displays of his power as much as he did, no longer speaks to humanity as much as he did. That is a flow of his behavior we can defintely guage and not be judging him.
Jesus said no more signs will be given, and I think that is a discription of his Fathers planned behavior which we can judge as the truth concerning how God will dispensate now during our days. Now if I take the aittitude towards God, that I will keep doing things that are harmful to me, until he gives me a sign to stop, you think Gods approach towards me would be to intervene with a sign?
No Stardust, it is wiser to show me that I am expecting things from him, desiring him to stop me with his force, rather than to teach me about what I am doing and Why I am doing it. It is wiser to educate the human, rather than to stop them in their tracks with force or more troubles or add more pain and suffering. We add enough pain and suffering to ourselves by our own will, than God does through his will.
The chastening of God is always educational and lends toward renewing, not towards excuses to keep doing what we are to harm ourselves. When we do not repent or change, that is evidence that God has NOT intervened, we are still on our will, not his. In this manner, how we Live is the evidence of Gods intervention.
Peace.
:cloud9: I saw his post as completely different, apparently. I have been thru some of those changes he talks about, the wanting to be free, yet emotions rising up and bringing me into bondage again, and God allowing it for another season, because I didn't want it with my WHOLE heart, so He let me have my fill of it until I was ready to seek His perfect will for my life. I didn't mean to agree to or imply in any way that we can judge where anyone is in their relationship to others in their life, because we don't know what God is having them walk out or why, unless He specifically tells us. Blessings to all......
Mickiel,
I understand some aspects of what you are saying. I also agree that God's chastening is to educate and reform. He has more than one way of doing so. The only part I'm really disagreeing with you on is saying that God does not intervene and right now God is letting people do whatever they want. Mankind has always had the freedom to choose an do what they want..God picks whatever consequences He sees fit. I don't think that has changed today. I also still believe He speaks today..maybe not in a loud audible voice..I certainly know He communicates with me, I may not understand the message right away, but I certainly know He speaks and intervenes. I also think that just because a person does not change does not prove that God has not intervened in their life, they could just be rebellious, or just not quite aware yet.
I hope I was not sounding argumentative with you, I apologize if I did. I just do not completely agree on your views of God's intervention. I do not think we can put Him in a box as such, He can intervene in any person's life anyway He seems fit. He is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. I hope no contention was forming here and we can agree to disagree.
Quote from: Stardust75 on March 04, 2008, 04:43:42 PM
Mickiel,
I understand some aspects of what you are saying. I also agree that God's chastening is to educate and reform. He has more than one way of doing so. The only part I'm really disagreeing with you on is saying that God does not intervene and right now God is letting people do whatever they want. Mankind has always had the freedom to choose an do what they want..God picks whatever consequences He sees fit. I don't think that has changed today. I also still believe He speaks today..maybe not in a loud audible voice..I certainly know He communicates with me, I may not understand the message right away, but I certainly know He speaks and intervenes. I also think that just because a person does not change does not prove that God has not intervened in their life, they could just be rebellious, or just not quite aware yet.
I hope I was not sounding argumentative with you, I apologize if I did. I just do not completely agree on your views of God's intervention. I do not think we can put Him in a box as such, He can intervene in any person's life anyway He seems fit. He is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. I hope no contention was forming here and we can agree to disagree.
Well no contention is forming in me, so you can be assured of that, why should I contend, just because someone disagrees with me? I could be just as wrong as anyonelse, however I stand on what I believe is right. I disagree that God will intervene in a persons life and they willnot change, such is a real limiting of Gods power. Listen, When God intervenes, that means their no longer is a choice for the person, they will then do what God wants done, or change where God wants change. Divine intervention does not involve human choice, and I really cannot understand why you cannot see this.
I think what you are not seeing is that intervention from God means that God will " Now Act" on the matter himself, not " Ask" the human if he can get in on the action, or still give them a choice in the action, he now is moving in on it himself, you see. It no longer matters to him what the human has done or will do, now its a matter of what HE will do about it.
I also disagree that God is speaking to humans today, I disagree with that. Only the Holy Spirit is interceeding and communicating with humanity today, and I reject the claims of any who claim the Spirit is speaking to them now. I do not see that occuring as of yet. I believe the Holy Spirit is " Influencing People", but thats it, and I will go no further into that matter. I have already made perfectly clear to this place how I am led to see that matter. And I am finished with my sharing of that, I will only mention it in such cases as this, when someonelse brings it up. God is not communicating with people, and the Holy Spirit may be communicating with people, and it is not speaking to them in any kind of voice. It appeals directly to the mind, no verbal acoustics are even nesecerary, that is just an emotional human reaction that fulfills a physcological need.
When God intervenes, the matter is now super powered and will come to its end or beginning. When God intervenes you now enter into the conclusion of the matter. It will stop. It won't drag on for years and years, or take a lot of time. That is evidence that God has NOT intervened. We have to learn to discern Gods Pressence. It is powerful and Mighty, and that pressence is not on this earth now. Its not in a church now, its not in a group of people now. If it was, EVERYONE would see it, both believer and unbeliever. And when God intervenes in ANY area of your Life, it will THEN change, not later down the road, RIGHT THEN and there!
But you see, when have cried " Holy Spirit Wolf" so much, we have convinced ourselves so much that God has intervened, when he has not,our only experience with his intervention is made up in our minds. And this is another way that we deny the Power of God. We have constructed our own " Images", our own views of God, the groups we frequent have unerlaterally accepted those views, and we go merrily along that accepted path, not really knowing the true Power of God. We will claim that he talks to us, annointed us, placed all kinds of things within us, and then we wonder why we are experiencing all kinds of troubles. We suppossedly have all these marvelous " Spiritual Things" inside of us, and we sin just as much or more than unbelievers. Yet we violently defend our Image.
And this is why so many of us will loose Love right along with this world. We went grocery shopping in the Bible, and " Took" all that we could take, and established ourselves. But the characther established by self willnot stand up under pressure, the characther established by God never fails. And there is a difference.
Peace.
Quote from: Stardust75 on March 04, 2008, 04:43:42 PM
Mickiel,
I understand some aspects of what you are saying. I also agree that God's chastening is to educate and reform. He has more than one way of doing so. The only part I'm really disagreeing with you on is saying that God does not intervene and right now God is letting people do whatever they want. Mankind has always had the freedom to choose an do what they want..God picks whatever consequences He sees fit. I don't think that has changed today. I also still believe He speaks today..maybe not in a loud audible voice..I certainly know He communicates with me, I may not understand the message right away, but I certainly know He speaks and intervenes. I also think that just because a person does not change does not prove that God has not intervened in their life, they could just be rebellious, or just not quite aware yet.
I hope I was not sounding argumentative with you, I apologize if I did. I just do not completely agree on your views of God's intervention. I do not think we can put Him in a box as such, He can intervene in any person's life anyway He seems fit. He is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. I hope no contention was forming here and we can agree to disagree.
The bottom line for me is he keeps me alive to see another day--in spite of myself.
I was walking through a parking lot the other day in my usual 'out of it' frame of mind. Thinking about other things, as usual. When suddenly I 'heard' a voice in my head which said, 'Don't walk behind old men in sportscars.' It was such an odd message that I stopped short and then noticed I was within an inch or two of walking behind a sports car. I looked forward to the driver's seat and there was --an old man. At that point, the old man revved his engine in reverse and roared out of his parking space, missing me by inches. He hadn't seen me. And, I almost hadn't seen him.
God is good--and funny, too-- LOL.
:cloud9: LOL, yes He is Molly........ :thumbsup:
Well again, this is an example of the Spirit appealing directly to the mind, not some verbal voice that you ears can hear. When the mind is appealed to, the ears hear nothing, and this is how I believe the Spirit will influence, there is no need for Audio sound. Such is the Power of God.
When John was on the Island of Patmos, his mind was taken to a " Spiritual Vision", in his mind he both saw and heard things. Everything he needed to see and hear was supplied to his Mind. And this is how the Spirit will influence us, and its how the bible will influence us. We don'y audibily hear the bible with sound, but it speaks to our minds. The Spirit is no different.
Peace.]
I have heard a verbal voice that my ears heard in the past. A voice that is outside of me. Maybe I have just become more sensitive to it? Or sometimes maybe he really needs to get my attention.
1 Kings 19:12
And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
The paraclete is a helper. Roman soldiers always fought in pairs, so that one could watch the other's back. The modern airforce has a wingman who watches the back of the plane in front. While the plane in front is fighting the enemy, the wingman keeps him safe from attack out of his line of 'sight.' The paraclete is our 'wingman,' watching our back,-- giving us our wings.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. --John 14
"Comforter"
G3875
παράκλητος
paraklētos
par-ak'-lay-tos
An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.
:cloud9: Good........loved the wingman :thumbsup:
Well again my sense of the matter, and this not to take away from the experiences of others, when God establishes contact with someone, that means that he prior established none. No contact is an establishment by God also. Understand that. When God does not comminucate, that means he has established no communication. I think once God has established communication, he will then continue to communicate from that point onward. Conversely, when he has not established communication, he will continue in that direction until he does establish it. But when he breaks that plane, then he will always communicate, or be present.
When God comes to the earth, that will break the plane, or the gulf " Fixed" between him and humanity, and he will then always be with humanity and continue in that path. I think the giving of the Holy Spirit is simular, once it is given, that breaks a gulf that was previously " Fixed" between God and the human. The veil that was " Rendered into" was a breaking of a fixed plane. I think it is simular with God and how he personally communicates, he has " Fixed" or established first, no communication , and he then goes from that reality into another, if he has established contact with a human. But the Holy Spirit is represenitive of God, it is not God himself. God can contact a human through the Spirit, but that still is a " Go between", it is not God himself.
God has 7 Spirits, and thus 7 ways he can communicate to a human, without speaking directly to them. He only uses 1 of those Spirits to communicate with humanity, which we know as the Holy Spirit. And I have been studying this, its a most difficult study. Humanity is not open to communicate with any other Spirit of God, except the Holy Spirit. We are not privy to Gods other Spirits, they have nothing to do with us. Which is perhaps a good thing, we are going wild over just the thought of one of his Spirits.
When John described Gods Throne, he said he saw " 24 other Thrones" around Gods Throne. A Regal setting at best, and he said he " Heard and Saw" flashes of Lightning and Sounds of Thunder." He goes on to write the entire book of Revelations, and in very graphic detail. From this we can know several things. When God decides to, he can appeal directly to the mind, and yes you can hear his voice. John heard both God, Jesus and Angels speak, during this " Vision." But it was a Vision, not a dream, not an emotional inspiration. The Vision took some time, it was not an ethereal " Quickie." It was specfic and authentic, which is how God is when he communicates. The Communication last, it is filled with Power, it is crystal clear and specfic. It was not a 7 second phone call. I am tempted to go into to that, but I don't want to get too far off topic.
Peace.