Hello,
I think if you peruse christian theology about the afterlife, salvation and divine judgment, then there is one eminent detail that in the end secures that every human will be saved and go to Heaven after death. That detail is the character and person of our Savior Jesus who actually never stops being a Savior. That means, when a human dies he will come to Jesus, no matter what kind of human this is. And in this after-death meeting with Jesus everyone can plead for his mercy, because Jesus is such a kind of Savior that never disregards anyone. Where wrongly minded people assume that Jesus can also be the angry God that throws someone into hell, we can safely say that instead of this he remains being a sympathetic and love-minded lawyer of the human case in the divine court. God the Father has legitimized Jesus to speak for every man and in that way Jesus is as close to us as his love wills it, and so he can always remain being a Savior and never has to be the hard judge that some humans make Jesus out to be.
This is really the core of UR for me, that Jesus never runs away from anyone, and then you might see that the bible actually never claims this. Sure it has accounts of sins and moral mistakes but in the end these things are not bigger than Jesus himself. Martin Luther once remarked, let your sin be strong but let your trust in Christ be stronger still. And do not follow the assumption that while Jesus is soft our Father is tough, that while Jesus is meek our Father is angry. Again this is not true and God will not change and we can appeal to mercy and grace after death.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 21, 2016, 11:26:36 AM
I think if you peruse christian theology about the afterlife, salvation and divine judgment, then there is one eminent detail that in the end secures that every human will be saved and go to Heaven after death. That detail is the character and person of our Savior Jesus who actually never stops being a Saviour.
This is really the core of UR for me, that Jesus never runs away from anyone, and then you might see that the bible actually never claims this.
His details are precise. Love never fails. His plan is totally effective. He is greater than Adam's failures.
All pretty awesome really.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 21, 2016, 11:26:36 AM
Hello,
I think if you peruse christian theology about the afterlife, salvation and divine judgment, then there is one eminent detail that in the end secures that every human will be saved and go to Heaven after death. That detail is the character and person of our Savior Jesus who actually never stops being a Savior. That means, when a human dies he will come to Jesus, no matter what kind of human this is. And in this after-death meeting with Jesus everyone can plead for his mercy, because Jesus is such a kind of Savior that never disregards anyone. Where wrongly minded people assume that Jesus can also be the angry God that throws someone into hell, we can safely say that instead of this he remains being a sympathetic and love-minded lawyer of the human case in the divine court. God the Father has legitimized Jesus to speak for every man and in that way Jesus is as close to us as his love wills it, and so he can always remain being a Savior and never has to be the hard judge that some humans make Jesus out to be.
This is really the core of UR for me, that Jesus never runs away from anyone, and then you might see that the bible actually never claims this. Sure it has accounts of sins and moral mistakes but in the end these things are not bigger than Jesus himself. Martin Luther once remarked, let your sin be strong but let your trust in Christ be stronger still. And do not follow the assumption that while Jesus is soft our Father is tough, that while Jesus is meek our Father is angry. Again this is not true and God will not change and we can appeal to mercy and grace after death.
Amen..I love the fact that Jesus, as God, prayed forgiveness for His enemies, those who were cruelly tormenting and murdering Him, as He hung on the cross..this is what God is truly like..not the angry vengeful god..but the sweet God..loving even those who hated Him.
Great point. Jesus Christ is the Truth, and all truths must have their anchor in the character and person of that Great Truth.
:thumbsup:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
The details for me, besides Jesus being the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world, are the consistent lack of Hell in the Bible, except for mis-translation. Just having the Bible say "Hell" does not make it so - it is just a supposition, a spirit of religion.
Amen to all of the above! ...and I really cannot see any Bible scripture which says after death all hope is lost.. When Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented - and they figured they were doing all things right - they would die in their sins. But all this seems to me to be saying is they will rise (still) in their sins. To carry it further, to me, is to add to the Word of God (and also to take away from!)
I know one must believe (in Spirit and in truth, that is, sincerely) to be saved.. (to have one's name in the book of life). But where does it say ones's name cannot be written in the book of life except during this oh so brief lifespan? I believe judgment 'day' is an age, between the millennial age and the age/eternity? when the Father will be "all in all" and "will now tabernacle with man" upon earth made new in a universe made new.. And that this judgment/review age will be when "every knee shall bow" (written in Philippians, Romans and Isaiah) and is when "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD" (Ps 22:27) And also is likely (imo) when there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness in differing degrees for some.. But for many others a welcome and joyful realization of the truth, that "God saves". And is love, and kind and most merciful, discipline being for "curtailing", pruning and perfecting.. For instruction and growth not for revenge or egads, torment (which is SO contrary to His nature, character and who He is).
:thumbsup: :banana:
I think it's about God's judgment of all of us when we have died. In this judgment, there also sits Jesus as the advocate of sinners. In that situation you can plead to Jesus and he will save you. Faith is the extraordinary attempt of being loving hands of God of those who already found Jesus in their lifetiime. God has been revealed as love, particularly on the cross, and He wants to "cash in His reward". And that reward is mankind, because Jesus is known as the Savior of the world.
Remember that there are many who could not in their lifetime put their faith in Jesus. That includes those who lived before Christ, those who lived after him who were not reached by missionaries and the word of God, babies who died before they could grasp the need of faith, coma patients, those whom the church violated like the american indians, and all the others who did not find belief.
I have come to believe in God because I know that He is this love which is greater than conscience and who knows all valid excuses. Let us not become timid by evils like terror attacks, let us keep believing in love!
Amen, anti-Nietzsche! And in the Bible, there isn't really an 'age of accountability' (doctrine)..
Yes.. All those examples you listed.. I agree. And the whole idea God loses a majority of humanity denies two things, His perfection and that He is love. And it so greatly underestimates Him! Even were it 'just' a minority He were to lose.. To me it doesn't hold water! Somewhere over these 2000 years, the faith has picked up some baggage.. And lost some of its glory..
Besides! How is it so many verses contrary to that are so overlooked?
And - I almost forgot , "His reward" Jesus' reward! :thumbsup: ..He was likely thoughtful of as He hung there upon the cross.. Mankind! "God has put all things under Him and there remains nothing under Him" .."All that the Father gives me.." He shall not lose.. (Those are badly paraphrased, I should look them up later!)
"Remember and return to Jehovah, do all ends of the earth, and before Thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations." - Ps 22:27, Young's Literal Translation
:Peace2: :smile:
Remember that the cross also means that the mosaic law of judgment and wrath has been replaced by Christ's law of universal love. When there is no law to remember then sin is dead again like Paul writes. Without a law of judgment there is no prosecution so Jesus can reign supreme now and set through his will of love and forgiveness, this is what he stands for. If God now is not anymore the Lord of the law, this means He is not judging people for damnation anymore, that judgment has become something good like we learned it as children. We were not afraid of our fathers and mothers really who taught us about good and evil and that we must honor and respect every man. We are educated in Christ's law of love and not doing harm. Sin now has become a failure at loving and being good to other people, but since there is no condemnation anymore Jesus is ruling through applying love and mercy, and lover and mercy triumph over judgment. And those who have no faith in Jesus are not judged either because Jesus didn't come to judge such people as He is a Savior and Advocate, not a Judge. And God the Father is love and does not judge people either except to bring them back to love. Jesus said that those who despise him have a judge that judges them in the Last Day. The modern translations have this saying as "the word he has spoken", but in the original it is "the word that I talk". We are judged by Jesus' words in the future, those He speaks after the sacrifice of the Cross has been performed. And Jesus' words are of forgiveness, love and life for which we bear crosses and suffer reproach. Every human has been made in the image of God and has been born by God in the spirit. That is why God considers all of us His children, and Jesus is this God and those who see Him have seen the Father. God is love and does not judge because He himself practices what He preaches. Remember to take communion often, it gives us the body of Christ and inspires us to trust Him and love other people with God's love.
A lot of good thoughts anti_nietzsche. Thanks.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 09, 2016, 11:04:19 AM
Remember that the cross also means that the mosaic law of judgment and wrath has been replaced by Christ's law of universal love. When there is no law to remember then sin is dead again like Paul writes. Without a law of judgment there is no prosecution so Jesus can reign supreme now and set through his will of love and forgiveness, this is what he stands for. If God now is not anymore the Lord of the law, this means He is not judging people for damnation anymore, that judgment has become something good like we learned it as children. We were not afraid of our fathers and mothers really who taught us about good and evil and that we must honor and respect every man. We are educated in Christ's law of love and not doing harm. Sin now has become a failure at loving and being good to other people, but since there is no condemnation anymore Jesus is ruling through applying love and mercy, and lover and mercy triumph over judgment. And those who have no faith in Jesus are not judged either because Jesus didn't come to judge such people as He is a Savior and Advocate, not a Judge. And God the Father is love and does not judge people either except to bring them back to love. Jesus said that those who despise him have a judge that judges them in the Last Day. The modern translations have this saying as "the word he has spoken", but in the original it is "the word that I talk". We are judged by Jesus' words in the future, those He speaks after the sacrifice of the Cross has been performed. And Jesus' words are of forgiveness, love and life for which we bear crosses and suffer reproach. Every human has been made in the image of God and has been born by God in the spirit. That is why God considers all of us His children, and Jesus is this God and those who see Him have seen the Father. God is love and does not judge because He himself practices what He preaches. Remember to take communion often, it gives us the body of Christ and inspires us to trust Him and love other people with God's love.
Paul says the law was given as a tutor to Christ, and to make sin manifestly visible. No one could fulfill the law but Jesus Christ, who fulfilled it by offering His life in love. Jesus said, "The law says "You shall not commit adultery" But i say, If you look at a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery in your heart".
Jesus was not putting a harder law to follow on us. He was showing that we need to have our hearts cleansed.
"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sns and tocleanse us from all unrighteousness".
Sin is still sin.
Paul said, "I agree with the law of God in my heart but there is another law working in my members.....Who shall free me from the body of this death?.....Thank God for Jesus Christ. Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit."
Jesus is the answer to our sins. He will set us free from them.
He did not die to give us permission to walk in them. He died to set us free from them- His life in exchange for ours.
"For I have died and my life is hidden in Christ with God, and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God".
If we excuse sin we will reap the harvest of it in our relationship with the Father and in our daily lives. God still corrects willful sinners and "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows so shall he also reap".
If we confess our sin God will work with us to get free by His grace and the supply of His spirit in our inner man. Sometimes it takes a whole lifetime. So be it. I have sins I have struggled with all my life. God loves me and I enjoy constant fellowship with Him but my sin is sinful. if I stumble I have to agree with God that I have stumbled and repent(turn around, go back) and continue to fight the fight. This is what overcoming is. The victory is in the continuation of the struggle BECAUSE WE NEVER COMPLETELY DEFEAT THE FLESH IN THIS LIFE- but we can get the upperhand by the grace of God and gradual transformation into His image.... becoming conformed ti Him and open as conduits for His love.
If we teach that Jesus is forgiving sin without repentance on the part of the believer we are deceived to the uttermost and promoting a corrupted gospel. No amount of truth will sustain such a lie and still deliver life. It will deliver death.
God forgives sinners but He is
forgiving .... Not excusing. Jesus anulled the law to establish a "new and living way" to walk in His life.
Often when we fall to some sin and cannot overcome the desire what we need is more of Him, more of His power. We cannot fall to the temptation to excuse sin because it is easier than overcoming it. Receiving forgiveness is where the strength to overcome begins.
:iagree: eaglesway
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 04:43:35 AM
When Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented - and they figured they were doing all things right - they would die in their sins.
Jesus also said the prostitutes and tax-collectors would enter the Kingdom before the Pharisees - but their entry is implied, nevertheless, dying in their sins, notwithstanding.
If we teach that Jesus is forgiving sin without repentance on the part of the believer we are deceived to the uttermost and promoting a corrupted gospel. No amount of truth will sustain such a lie and still deliver life. It will deliver death.
How about the adulteress that the pharisees brought to Jesus? She was forgiven without repentance and after the forgiveness he said to her go and sin no more.
Same about the cross. Jesus forgave all sin in his death there, before they actually happened (Father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing. - It is finished.)
There is simply no will to painfully punish people in God. His love and forgiveness are much greater than mankind's sins that have been carried out of the world by Jesus Christ. Jesus is a Savior and understands judgment as bringing someone back to spiritual health and love-based righteousness.
Actually, she was forgiven and warned to repent, if you read it.
1 John 1
5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.
Romans 6:
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness. 21What fruit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
D.
For me, I do believe those whom are slaves to sin do not understand that they are dead and not raised to Life in Christ yet .
The knowledge of God though Jesus Christ is our salvation and comfort and hope for the Living , those whom serve the Living God joyfully and in the peace and knowledge of His Light and Life as children of the DAY and growing in truth and grace .
Here are some parallel scriptures as to what living in Christ and belonging to His Living body is verses the evil having made us slaves to it and its results is death , as we were once before Christ gave us Light and life . ALL hope is in Christ if we are judging the flesh we are also in error /sin a bad way , wrong path
Jesus warned the Pharisees , the self righteous ones , that they were judging according to the flesh and were still blind , and blind guides , they failed to see the Light of their salvation and was still locked up tight under the law of sin and death themselves , making them hypocrites , Because to me , as I can understand it , as they judged according to the flesh they were also being judged as guilty under the law of sin and death ,,
Until one is free from being an accuser and murderer of the brethren, same spirit of satan whom accuses before God day in the light and night in utter ignorance , they will in no way be set free from their own spiritual prison[LOF to me ] and fire of Gehenna judgments, some very severe corrections ... the ones whom know and are in some Light of Knowledge of God receive more heavier chastening .
Just as Jesus spoke of the Babylon spirit working in mankind the 7 times of Daniels day on King Neb and are explained in my own opinion as the severe chastenings in Revelation of Jesus Christ being the DAY of the Lord and vengeance is His and He will repay everyone according to their fruit / deeds BECAUSE WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF SIN . When you show mercy on others you will obtain mercy , etc ,
It is a standard set in as you judge so shall you be judged , we can be our own worst enemy , If sin is ruling over us and us not ruling over sin by the POWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST dwelling and working in us ... It is a daily battle in my opinion and not to even consider tomorrow yet ,
Because Jesus said, Today's troubles are sufficient of them selves and Paul gave excellent counsel when saying when he went to do good evil was present , this rising up of the old nature does not want to die easily and His need to beat his body into subjection to the will of God, as to stay in a low and humbled state .Knowing the chastening of the Lord is severe ,GOD loves us and wants some good results / fruit .
Jesus even said to the Pharisees , separatist spirits meaning "separate" or "detach." , DO AS THEY SAY , not as they do hypocrites MATT 23 , big red flag to me , a sign of the WORD / Sword of the Spirit cutting off the branches and having them cast in the Fire , all things that offend and still in the darkness of the will of God .
Romans 6 The Wages of Sin
...22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This comes from learning obedience and submitting to the Lord and His will being done in my own understanding at this time as we grow in truth and under His grace If God be willing .
Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Proverbs 11:19
He who is steadfast in righteousness will attain to life, And he who pursues evil will bring about his own death.
Isaiah 3:9
The expression of their faces bears witness against them, And they display their sin like Sodom; They do not even conceal it. Woe to them! For they have brought evil on themselves.
Ezekiel 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
John 4:36
Already the reaper draws his wages and gathers a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together.
Romans 1:32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them. :sigh:
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:21
so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?
IF we are in the Light and close and near than the darkness and the evil one has to flee , hates the Light ... :HeartThrob: and wants no part of love at all , just thrives in chaos and drama and empty tombs :sigh:
QuoteRomans 1:32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them. :sigh:
Jesus said, "And this is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil."
So if we are to be judged as we judge, then we must judge righteously. The wisdom and mercy that accompanies righteous judgment results in, as Seth shared n another thread, the humble repentance and faith of the judged.
There is a fineline sometimes between those who seek to eliminate judgment(corrective) from the gospel and those who grant approval to those whose deeds were evil. Jesus did not do that. He shone the light.
It is not judgment or self-righteousness to say, "God will judge the wicked".
He certainly will because He has said so- but it will be His righteous judgment and with Him, mercy triumphs over judgment, altho in a sense judgment is mercy in disguise, because it will bring an adversary to the end of his/her way.
Paul said to "gently instruct those who oppose themselves, that they may escape the snare of the devil", and maligned brother James says, "He that turns a sinner from his way has saved a soul and covered a multitude of sins".
Obviously(to me) God is love. Those whom He reprves and chastens are loved by Him, and without disputation, many come to grace through the door of correction.
"Be not deceived, God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap".
To warn of the results of continuing in sin is a faithful service to God and man when done in a right spirit- a spirit desiring the reconciliation of the warned.
"If you find a brother in a fault those who are spiritual among you, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves, lest you stumble"
A haughty spirit comes before a fall. Only the broken and contrite qualify for "those who are spiritual among you".
"The thrones were set and the books were opened and they were judged out of the books".
I personally think the thrones were set for the overcomers, and overcomers are those who persisted in love, humility, wisdom and forgiveness.
So many aspects of the gospel require wisdom and balance to understand properly within the context of God's love and divine nature.
We do not necessarily have to be concentrating on the judgment to come, because judgment will arise, circumstantially, in the lives of those who "continue to do these things and approve those who practice them".
I agree with every thing you have said John 100% ...
And if it is was sounding like I was saying the sinner gets off scot free that was never my intentions , we ALL suffer for doing evil .
NO ONE is exempt , God chastens who He loves and all children are disobedient sometimes .
I have a precious 3 year old grandson and he is so sweet , but his temper is terrible and he is in a stage where he will not listen .
He gets a smacked hiney and sent to the corner often :doh: But in these stages come changes and there is always hope, if God be willing .
I just believe that the ''religious spirits'' of Babylon is the ones whom is sent into the fires for correction and they are the last to enter the kingdom of God , they are snatched out of the fires after they learn obedience . because it it these whom come the greater condemnation .
Making a mockery of God and God is not mocked .
Matthew 23:13
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter.
Mark 12:40
They defraud widows of their houses, and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will receive greater condemnation."
Luke 20:47
They defraud widows of their houses, and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will receive greater condemnation."
I agree it is sincere and complete humility and surrender , pride has no place in Gods kingdom ever .
:o)....
When I write in a thread like this that I have been posting in for awhile, everything I write is a continuation and developement of my thoughts throughout the thread, so I wasnt responding directly to you, or characterizing or rebutting your post.
I enjoy the discussion, and we all have areas we dont see exactly the same.
We do however all agree that all will be reconciled and God will be all in all. :o)