The Bible reads and teaches that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:14 And we--we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son--Saviour of the world;
If one considers the thinking that the Saviour died only for a part, be that large or small, of the world... then I believe that
person does not have the faith or the understanding that God is Love. 1Jn 4:8 he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.
There is always input from people who believe in God, but that God should or would, direct one of His children, that He made to that unbiblical location(?) of what they believe to be everlasting torment or everlasting damnation called hell. That it is God's justice, that this is a form of His love. That should mankind not accept the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD JESUS according to the way and times that religion teaches... that The Father and Creator of the WHOLE WORLD and everything in it would commit one of His children to such a punishment, is so out of what love is. How hatefull and foolish is religion?
No where does it teach that there is not justice and punishment for His children who are disobedient and rebel. HE is Justice.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 24, 2011, 02:39:13 AM
The Bible reads and teaches that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:14 And we--we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son--Saviour of the world;
There can be more than one way to interpret this as I see it right now.
http://biblos.com/1_john/4-14.htm (http://biblos.com/1_john/4-14.htm)
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2889.htm (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2889.htm)
Transliteration: kosmos
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs;
the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
He could've meant it in a way that jesus is the savior
for the world/everyone.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 24, 2011, 02:39:13 AM
If one considers the thinking that the Saviour died only for a part, be that large or small, of the world... then I believe that
person does not have the faith or the understanding that God is Love. 1Jn 4:8 he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.
He died for all of the world but only part of the world is believing in him.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 24, 2011, 02:39:13 AM
There is always input from people who believe in God, but that God should or would, direct one of His children, that He made to that unbiblical location(?) of what they believe to be everlasting torment or everlasting damnation called hell. That it is God's justice, that this is a form of His love. That should mankind not accept the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD JESUS according to the way and times that religion teaches... that The Father and Creator of the WHOLE WORLD and everything in it would commit one of His children to such a punishment, is so out of what love is. How hatefull and foolish is religion?
Anyone who doesn't believe is NOT god's son or his child. Unbelievers get sent to hades where they await judgement. So god should be so loving that he should let satan and his demons into heaven? God is fair and just, he does not show favoritism. If he lets sinners into heaven then he must also let satan and his demons into heaven as well.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 24, 2011, 02:39:13 AM
No where does it teach that there is not justice and punishment for His children who are disobedient and rebel. HE is Justice.
I think you need to reword that sentence? Once again, no where in the bible does it say that unbelievers are god's children.
You don't need to rebel or be disobedient to receive punishment. You need to have one instance of not showing love/having loving desire or one instance of have any evil desire.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 24, 2011, 02:39:13 AM
The Bible reads and teaches that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:14 And we--we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son--Saviour of the world;
If one considers the thinking that the Saviour died only for a part, be that large or small, of the world... then I believe that
person does not have the faith or the understanding that God is Love. 1Jn 4:8 he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.
There is always input from people who believe in God, but that God should or would, direct one of His children, that He made to that unbiblical location(?) of what they believe to be everlasting torment or everlasting damnation called hell. That it is God's justice, that this is a form of His love. That should mankind not accept the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD JESUS according to the way and times that religion teaches... that The Father and Creator of the WHOLE WORLD and everything in it would commit one of His children to such a punishment, is so out of what love is. How hatefull and foolish is religion?
No where does it teach that there is not justice and punishment for His children who are disobedient and rebel. HE is Justice.
An inspiring post to read on resurection sunday.
"I think you need to reword that sentence? Once again, no where in the bible does it say that unbelievers are god's children."
Mat 5:45 so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same?
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 25, 2011, 01:10:00 AM
"I think you need to reword that sentence? Once again, no where in the bible does it say that unbelievers are god's children."
Mat 5:45 so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same?
Exactly, it says the word may, not will. The sentence also begins with the word "so". On the verse before that, it says love you enemy, so you may become sons of your father. The effect of loving your enemy is that you may become a son of the father.
matthew 5:44-45 "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45
so that you
may be sons of your Father who is in heaven..."
Do you my friend believe that should God will, wish, desire, may, want that it WILL not come about.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Do you the pitifull small thinking of men who cannot see the LOVE of God will with mere belief and words turn back what GOD wills or wants or desires or wishes? I think not. God IS love and love is all in all.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 25, 2011, 02:25:21 AM
Do you my friend believe that should God will, wish, desire, may, want that it WILL not come about.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Do you the pitifull small thinking of men who cannot see the LOVE of God will with mere belief and words turn back what GOD wills or wants or desires or wishes? I think not. God IS love and love is all in all.
Just because I want a glass of orange juice doesn't mean a glass of orange juice will appear in front of me.
NIV 2011
1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
ESV
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
KJV does say the word will, but that bible isn't the best, so I wouldn't rely on it due to a possible mistranslation.
http://biblos.com/1_timothy/2-4.htm (http://biblos.com/1_timothy/2-4.htm)
The word "will" is this one. http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2309.htm (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2309.htm)
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.
So I wouldn't bet all my money on that one verse.
It is possible that all of those who are sent to hades after many years of being down there completely forget their past lives and bend their knee metaphorically (in old times inferior people would kneel or go on the floor to superior people i.e. lords/kings) and swear (allegiance?) on judgement day, so they judged, just like believers were judged as well (Isaiah 45:22-25, etc). I just don't know yet and I'm still trying to find out.
"Just because I want a glass of orange juice doesn't mean a glass of orange juice will appear in front of me." nez
Hey the only difference is that you aint God, the Creator, and Father. Believe me friend, Just because God will, wish, desire, a glass of orange juice, it will, desire, and wish and be there. You must get that. God WILL have.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 25, 2011, 02:59:24 AM
"Just because I want a glass of orange juice doesn't mean a glass of orange juice will appear in front of me." nez
Hey the only difference is that you aint God, the Creator, and Father. Believe me friend, Just because God will, wish, desire, a glass of orange juice, it will, desire, and wish and be there. You must get that. God WILL have.
So God didn't desire all of the other people in Noah's time to seek god?
You said that if god desires, god gets?
Quote from: nes on April 25, 2011, 03:12:10 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 25, 2011, 02:59:24 AM
"Just because I want a glass of orange juice doesn't mean a glass of orange juice will appear in front of me." nez
Hey the only difference is that you aint God, the Creator, and Father. Believe me friend, Just because God will, wish, desire, a glass of orange juice, it will, desire, and wish and be there. You must get that. God WILL have.
So God didn't desire all of the other people in Noah's time to seek god?
You said that if god desires, god gets?
When did I say that? God will deal with them in His time. Why is it that YOU feel this need to find a people or even one soul that would be left out of the love and grace of a loving Father?
Quote from: nes on April 25, 2011, 02:04:48 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 25, 2011, 01:10:00 AM
"I think you need to reword that sentence? Once again, no where in the bible does it say that unbelievers are god's children."
Mat 5:45 so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same?
Exactly, it says the word may, not will. The sentence also begins with the word "so". On the verse before that, it says love you enemy, so you may become sons of your father. The effect of loving your enemy is that you may become a son of the father.
matthew 5:44-45 "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven..."
Who was Jesus speaking to? And in what age? IMO, it was to those before the cross, having to do with the kingdom (relationship) prior to the age of grace. We (the Gentiles, on this side of the cross) don't become sons of God by doing good works. The ecclesia is saved by grace through faith given by God to those He chooses in this age. The rest at/prior to the consummation - when God becomes All in All.
He, Jesus was speaking to His disciples.
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.
--
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (KJV)
Isaiah 46:10 telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: (The Septuagint; Brenton's Translation)
Isaiah 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.' (CLV)
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' (ESV)
This I say to all who have the need to respond to a day...HE HAS RISEN EVERYDAY AND IS RISING NOW!
Quote from: nes on April 25, 2011, 02:54:10 AM
Just because I want a glass of orange juice doesn't mean a glass of orange juice will appear in front of me.
So I wouldn't bet all my money on that one verse.
1 Timothy 2:4 is:
"An active, ongoing result of a previous action."
Although in the third person it is within an active present tense, which is an ongoing result of a previous action, and in the ongoing result of that action, "desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth." Whereas, the action itself is indicative of being real. Nowhere is it subjunctive or that of being contingent, probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking "that man might" come to this salvation and knowledge.
Please, by all means continue.
peacemaker
AHA and a GLORY!
Don't take for granted "may" in every case is about a possibilty instead of a fact.
In the verses below I marked the word that should be/are italics in KJV
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Goe, and search diligently for the yong child, and when ye haue found him, bring me word againe, that I may come and worship him also.
==> Simply means come.
35 That vpon you may come all the righteous blood shed vpon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel, vnto the blood of Zacharias, sonne of Barachias, whom yee slew betweene the temple and the altar.
==> Simply means come.
23 and he was calling upon him much, saying--`My little daughter is at the last extremity--that having come, thou mayest lay on her thy hands, so that she may be saved, and she shall live;'
==> The word may isn't in the originals
==> The ruler had no doubt Jesus could heal his daughter.
36 and ye like to men waiting for their lord, when he shall return out of the wedding feasts, that he having come and knocked, immediately they may open to him.
==> open. Not may open.
23 `And the lord said unto the servant, Go forth to the ways and hedges, and constrain to come in, that my house may be filled;
==> filled is in the originals. 'may be' is italic text.
28 for I have five brothers, so that he may thoroughly testify to them, that they also may not come to this place of torment.
14 and having seen him, the husbandmen reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir; come, we may kill him, that the inheritance may become ours;
==> Again no may here
Greek simply isn't the same as English. To get something that resembles English a lot of words need to be added. Translation unwillingly become partly interpretation.
It's not that some translations always insert 'may' and others don't. It seems almost random.
It is possible that all of those who are sent to hades after many years of being down there completely forget their past lives and bend their knee metaphorically (in old times inferior people would kneel or go on the floor to superior people i.e. lords/kings) and swear (allegiance?) on judgement day, so they judged, just like believers were judged as well (Isaiah 45:22-25, etc). I just don't know yet and I'm still trying to find out.
Nes
So they do get saved then eventually. Nobody said that Jesus would save all at the same time, some are saved much earlier than others.
Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Even evil recognizes Jesus as superior, without Jesus evil cannot even exist without His power, because he created all things and upholds the universe. The king of babylon who is a type of antichrist, also bowed and confessed God as ruler over all, it did take him a while and he rebelled once more, but after God punished him, his understanding returned and he praised God, not becaue he was forced to, but because his understanding returned to him, as God is morally superior to all living things and the evil must bow down and give respect to something/someone they fail at achieving.