People have told many testimonies of how the Lord guided them to leave one church, and join a different one. However, their testimonies explain how they felt like a certain Church was making them miserable, and God rescued them, and took them to another church. But there have been testimonies of people being rescued from other Churches, or guided to other churches, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptists, Anabaptist, Universalist, Jehovahs Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Scientologist, Christophidelians, Quaker, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Eastern, New Age, Paganism, indigenous religions, ect. People have been both "Rescued from", and "Guided to" these churches. The people claim that the churches they were "Rescued from" were demonic, evil, abusive and ungodly lies. Yet they claim that the church they were "Guided to" was the truth. The problem is, a church cannot be both the right church and the wrong church at the same time.
I remember when I was saved from Fundamentalist Catholicism. I had been dealing with the final stages of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and was under the impression that I was not able to accept a strict Catholic Dogma with spirituality, and prayed for deliverance from GAD, so I could have the ability to see the Dogma and Catechism in a spiritual way. Well, I remember that I was finding out their strict Dogma was becoming more and more disturbing till the point that one day before thanksgiving, the Lord answered my prayers, and took me away from all that strict Dogma I had felt like I needed to accept.
Does anyone have any insight on why people would be guided to a certain religion, while being delivered from that same religion.
It is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and who knows the mind of the Father in every situation. Joseph probably asked a similar question a few years after his whole ruling in Egypt situation was over only Joseph probably asked God why it was necessary to be thrown into a pit and so on.
cp
"The third river is HIDDEKEL and "goeth toward the east of Assyria." The Assyrians were not a pure race, being a mixture of Babylonian and Sumerian. They came originally from Babylon and were thus acquainted with the Babylonian inventions, discoveries, and religion. The ancient river Hiddekel, later named Tigris, flowed along the eastern border of both Babylon and Assyria. The simple meaning of the word "Assyria" is "successful." There is no doubt in my mind that this "success" is the success of the Babylonian harlot, sitting upon many waters, arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication, who also saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. The harlot religious systems have indeed been phenomenonally successful when measured in terms of untold millions of members, inestimable wealth, costly buildings and ornate temples, impressive rituals and ceremonies, pomp, splendor, and worldly honor.
It is successful because it is worldly minded; it loves pleasure more than it loves God; it loves feasting more than it loves fasting; it loves entertainment more than it loves repentance and waiting upon the Lord. It compasses land and sea to make one proselyte and frequently the proselytes are two-fold more the children of the devil than they were in the beginning. Caught in her web of enchantment, those whom the harlot system "wins to the Lord" by teaching them the word of God according to the precepts of men, these babes are imprisoned in her fortress of forms and rituals and ceremonies and doctrines and organizational structures until they become hideously dwarfed and but grotesque caricatures of what a child of the living God should be like.
The entire Church system is full of professional beggars who will fleece your money from you in the name of their program just as a street beggar will beg in the name of his infirmity. From time to time I receive these automatically-typed lying letters from men I have never met nor seen nor known, who tell me how the Lord has laid me and my family upon their hearts, how they are praying for me, personally, every day, and what wonderful things will happen to me if I will just send them an offering for their work. One dear friend shared a letter with me from a well known evangelist in which he informed her that he had seen a vision of her house with the angels of God ascending and descending upon it. He was scheduled to be in Africa within a few days for a campaign, but the Lord had told him, he said, to postpone the campaign until he could write to her and get her most urgent prayer requests to take with him to Africa. If she would only send an offering of $20.00 along with her prayer requests, he would carry them to Africa where they would be prayed over and she could expect miraculous results... as though God answers prayer more effectively from Africa than in the United States of America! These automated letters are mailed out by the thousands, monthly and weekly, exact copies with only a different name inserted. I suggested to my friend that she write to this evangelist? and tell him she had her $20.00 ready to send just as soon as he would tell her what her house looks like and what color it is, since he had seen it in a vision! More than one widely known evangelist of our day has become a millionaire, and that by peddling his religious con games to gullible Christians deceived by their guile even though their wicked devices should be evident to the simplest mind.
Cursed be such wicked men! The Churches today are filled to everflowing with programs born out of carnal minds. Ah, wicked Babylon, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth! They profess that they know God, but in works they deny Him being abominable and to all true riches reprobate. No wonder Jesus said, "Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity" (Mat. 7:22-23). No wonder the Spirit inspired John the beloved to pronounce DESTRUCTIVE JUDGMENT against the Great Whore and her daughters.
It is imperative, however, that we distinguish between the system of Babylon which God shall swiftly bring to destruction, and the poor captives of Babylon held within her walls by the craftiness of her false shepherds. There is a great and glorious day coming when God shall bring to utter ruin the whole popular Church system, but, praise the Lord, this shall be followed by a great revival when the whole earth will turn to God and the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. Yes, beloved ones, there shall yet be a bountiful overflowing of the River of Life even to THE PEOPLE OF BABYLON, for the Lord Almighty and gracious has appointed His River to flow "toward the east of Assyria" and it shall water even that whole land!"
— J Preston Eby
ECHOES OF EDEN
Part 11
Sorry for the long post but it took that much to address a complicated topic.
Brother Preston has been given such a gift to share that I feel answers your question.
—dave.
I'm glad he tagged that last paragraph on the end like he did. I was starting to cringe at the disdain against church people. For me, it's not the people. I believe the veil is in their minds because the religious system has kept it there. The people in the system are the ones in bondage. The need loved out rather than spit upon.
Now church leadership is somewhat another matter. I've heard many say they do see things differently but they choose to keep those things to themselves so they don't ruffle any feathers in the church. They'd rather keep truth to themselves than let the church be changed. Change may not be appreciated, but it's always inevitable.
As far as why is a person led into a church he's later in need to be set free from, it reminds me of Moses . . .he was originally raised as an Egyptian only run away and come back later to free those bound in Egyptian slavery.
Paul even teaches that he alters his presentation in such a way that it changes with the crowd he's speaking to. If you want to catch a fish, you have to know what they like to eat. If you want to catch a crook you have to think like a crook. If we expect to see the church transformed . . .actually . . . this is something that I just spoke on in our own church.
Only God can bring revelation. We can share what we see with others, but it can't be taught, forced or fed. The best we can do is plant. And even then, the soil has to want it. It has to be thirsty. What we "can" do is be the midwives standing by. When the birthing begins, people are going to need someone to come alongside them and pour wisdom into them and help them realize that they are not who they are because of their actions, they are who they are because of His proclamation.
So, we are led into the system to learn and see and understand. When the time is ripe, we, like Moses, may have to run from the system and come to maturity in the wilderness . . .or to put it a better way . . .we may have to run into the wilderness "so we can" come into maturity with God's will in our lives. But know that if we're really going to be used by God . . .somewhere along the way, we'll be finding ourselves back in the system. But this time, it's not to become bound again ourselves, it's to set others free.
I think it differs from person to person. I've even read testimonies on the Internet of people who say they were delivered out of the Universalism. Ultimately, I believe that God can and does work in people's lives in every kind of situation and environment. All environments have problems and sometimes those problems drive people away. But there are still those who choose to stay and find that God is active and working right where they're at.
Delivered "out" of universalism? Wow. Why on earth would one "choose" to go back? Why would I want to believe friends and loved ones who didn't join in during their limited time, with even greater limited understanding in this realm would spend the rest of eternity in torment? Who's delivering who here?
"Universalism" is not an organization.
But, given satan's successes, he probably will get this Truth organized into some sort of religion.
The Cloud/Pillar moves us onward through the wilderness, if we stop and gild the calf; We die.
amen, it's a birthing process. God is always leading to better and greater promises. Not just different ones, but better and greater. It's really overwhelming if you think about it too much!! :laughing7:
Quote from: Nathan on April 11, 2010, 04:26:39 AM
Delivered "out" of universalism? Wow. Why on earth would one "choose" to go back? Why would I want to believe friends and loved ones who didn't join in during their limited time, with even greater limited understanding in this realm would spend the rest of eternity in torment? Who's delivering who here?
The folks I've seen who make this claim say that they finally realized it to be a heresy and so with that mindset in place, going back to other views is seen deliverance from heresy. And Beloved Servant, there is actually a universalist organization called the Christian Universalist Association, which is essentially a resurrected form of the former Universalist Church of America.
I'm not surprised!
Satan will pervert any and every Truth of God and place a man on the throne of it.
Test every spirit, for they are not all of Light.
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on April 09, 2010, 06:51:51 AM
People have told many testimonies of how the Lord guided them to leave one church, and join a different one. However, their testimonies explain how they felt like a certain Church was making them miserable, and God rescued them, and took them to another church. But there have been testimonies of people being rescued from other Churches, or guided to other churches, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptists, Anabaptist, Universalist, Jehovahs Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Scientologist, Christophidelians, Quaker, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Eastern, New Age, Paganism, indigenous religions, ect. People have been both "Rescued from", and "Guided to" these churches. The people claim that the churches they were "Rescued from" were demonic, evil, abusive and ungodly lies. Yet they claim that the church they were "Guided to" was the truth. The problem is, a church cannot be both the right church and the wrong church at the same time.
I remember when I was saved from Fundamentalist Catholicism. I had been dealing with the final stages of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and was under the impression that I was not able to accept a strict Catholic Dogma with spirituality, and prayed for deliverance from GAD, so I could have the ability to see the Dogma and Catechism in a spiritual way. Well, I remember that I was finding out their strict Dogma was becoming more and more disturbing till the point that one day before thanksgiving, the Lord answered my prayers, and took me away from all that strict Dogma I had felt like I needed to accept.
Does anyone have any insight on why people would be guided to a certain religion, while being delivered from that same religion.
Good for you! You are not afraid
to ask tough questions! Sweet! :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on April 09, 2010, 06:51:51 AM
People have told many testimonies of how the Lord guided them to leave one church, and join a different one. However, their testimonies explain how they felt like a certain Church was making them miserable, and God rescued them, and took them to another church. But there have been testimonies of people being rescued from other Churches, or guided to other churches, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptists, Anabaptist, Universalist, Jehovahs Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Scientologist, Christophidelians, Quaker, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Eastern, New Age, Paganism, indigenous religions, ect. People have been both "Rescued from", and "Guided to" these churches. The people claim that the churches they were "Rescued from" were demonic, evil, abusive and ungodly lies. Yet they claim that the church they were "Guided to" was the truth. The problem is, a church cannot be both the right church and the wrong church at the same time.
I remember when I was saved from Fundamentalist Catholicism. I had been dealing with the final stages of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and was under the impression that I was not able to accept a strict Catholic Dogma with spirituality, and prayed for deliverance from GAD, so I could have the ability to see the Dogma and Catechism in a spiritual way. Well, I remember that I was finding out their strict Dogma was becoming more and more disturbing till the point that one day before thanksgiving, the Lord answered my prayers, and took me away from all that strict Dogma I had felt like I needed to accept.
Does anyone have any insight on why people would be guided to a certain religion, while being delivered from that same religion.
People believe they are guided by spirit when they have not because they have been taught to perceive it with emotion.
Not taught to perceive it by emotion but — lead by emotion.
That is the soul leading the spirit.
Paul teaches that elementary.
As one who has made many "moves" when it comes to churches, several years ago, I came to embrace this as a positive thing- as I was "slain in the Spirit" on one occasion, (because that happens to be the kind of church I belonged to at the time :happy3:), Christ witnessed to my spirit "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it", I rejoiced that He was giving me the liberty to explore the many facets of His Bride. I had started out in a hell-fire preachin' funny-mentalist baptist church, but was no longer allowed to be a member there because my first wife and I got divorced. So I moved on through a more liberal baptist, then to the "slain in the spirit" charismatic Vineyard movement, where I received this revelation. I am now Church of England on Sunday mornings, and volunteer at a penitentiary chapel on Sunday evenings- (that chapel has become my favorite because the "bad men" incarcerated there are so genuinely appreciative when anyone from outside comes to bring them a "cup of refreshing water in Jesus' name). I've come to love those men, and have learned to esteem them as better men than I, as St. Paul commands us. My passion now that I've embraced Biblical Universalism is to minister "restorative justice" to people who find themselves on the wrong side of the law, because that is the TRUE nature of God's justice- it will restore, purge, cleanse and ultimately bring us all back to Himself-- whoot whhooott :icon_king:
Dave
I still wonder about how I had been saved. I remember just this past September, I had found out that I had been suffering from GAD, after having it get worse for over a year. I had just started a new school, which I had been at for about a month, and pretty optimistic, excited to meet new people. I had thought I was past these hell scares I had occasionally had after joining Fundamentalist Catholicism. I had a really horrible one after having accidentally gotten onto some Catholic website about their Dogma, and how it cannot be denied, which pretty much talked about the horrible torments of hell. I was in denial that they believed in Eternal torture, and I was convinced it was okay to believe in annihilation. I had found the Hell doctrine to be most disturbing, considering that they taught that people were punished with specific torments of everlasting depression, pain of loss, despair, and terrible physical pains forever. Not to mention, Catholic Dogma was very strict and structured, and I had been told that I no longer had an excuse to ignore their dogma. But it was not making any sense to me. I had such trouble accepting such cruel dogma, and not being allowed to think for myself, and let the Catechism tell me how to think. I had been brainwashed into thinking that the Catholic Church was the original Church with the Pope as the sucessor of St. Peter, and that the Eastern Churches split from them, and that the Catholic Church was unable to error on anything. Then I ended up getting a bit clingy to Rosaries, the Prayer of St. Michael, and our lady at Medjudgorge. Unfortunately Medjudgorge made some prophecy of all these punishments of calamities coming to earth, of the tares(non whites) mixing with the wheat(catholics) and bringing people down to hell. I had a major panic attack, in which i discovered I had been suffering GAD, which explained alot. I was relieved, but still got panicky if I got into any Catholic literature. But had convinced myself that the only reason I was having these problems because of GAD, nothing with the Catholic Church. It had gotten so bad that I had begun to loose my appetite, and immediately began treatment with this method which retrained me to think reasonably. I was told early on to Drop my burden. I had gone throught the methods of relaxing, eating healthy(i wasnt hungry anyways), and was not really getting too much better. I had been avoiding any Catholic literature, but all that Hellfire stuff was poking at me. Unfortunately I could not take it anymore and went back to Catholic Literature only to find every disturbing theories on hell, like loosing your soul, no purpose in heaven, ect. I had talked to a priest about my concern, and I got the same stuff of everlasting torment but I dont have to worry. I was only feeling worse about this God figure. Heaven did not sound like much of a party unless you enjoy hanging with a bunch of loveless pharisees and watching your friends and family being tortured forever. But I was quickly recovering from GAD over that week, despite the fact that I was still disturbed about Catholic Teachings. But I remember on that Thursday, I was pretty relaxed, and not so frightened. During Art History, I had this feeling like something came to me and told me to drop the burden of this dogma. I had felt this strong desire to start researching Spirituality instead of Catholic Sanctioned teachings, and felt guided to check out this Website about the Free Catholic Church. It had shared some information about the other Churches such as the Nestorians, India, Antioch, Greece, and Rome, but how Rome was under the control of Constantine and made the rules on what was heresy and what was orthodox. Unfortunately that night, I had a pretty disturbing dream about Demons, but unlike my previous nightmares, I no longer was scared like all my previous nightmares at the time. I unfortunately turned into an acgnostic, and began to question these Christian Churches, but got this belief that whoever this God figure was something greater than we could understand and that everything worked out for a purpose for something greater that we could not understand. I had started feeling better than I had in a long time and was able to have a nice thanksgiving.
Yet I still wonder what happened that day.
How would I know to not be afraid, and see the problem after being brainwashed by all this Dogma?
Why was I guided to acgnosticism first?
Was this divine or psychological?
God has a destiny for every being. How we reach that destiny depends on the choices we make and the influences we experience. But regardless of the route, we're destined to be gathered fully into him in the end. I appreciated your testimony, it's a perfect example of what religion does to people. I went through a similar experience with my own up-bringing but we weren't Catholic, we were Pentecostals and proud of it. We didn't outwardly denounce other beliefs, but we did look at them as in the wrong and we're in the right. Isn't that the way it always is?
If there's one thing I've found most profound in my relationship with Christ is, it's not about who's right or who's wrong. It's about "me" becoming "one" with the Father. If I just concentrait on my relationship rather than monitor everyone else's, I find one, it's a much easier road to travel, and two, the problem usually isn't other people, it's my perspective of other people. If I let Christ transform my perspective, then my attitude changes along with the transformation. It's a win/win.
I also found your question at the end to be a common one. Many ask "why did I have to go through all of that religion only to be delivered out of it? And for me, I believe God leads us through places like that so that we will establish relationships along the way. Why? For one, relationships with others strengthens us in our own walk. And two, because God knew all along that you would find your freedom and as a result, you/I now have connections with those still bound. And now those that once were bound but now are free can lead others out of their bondages through relationship rather than religion.
I agree that we go through different paths in order for God to show us what we need to understand.
I was raised christian reformed, snuck out to alliance church , met a girl in the pentecostal church(where I was "saved"),rebabtized in a mennonite church and married as well,kicked out of a baptist church and called out of "signs and wonders church"(actually same church that todd bently was a member)
But in all these places,through the different people and ministries God showed me His truth in the midst of it.
Unfortunately these same people now fear for my salvation and the worst part is,kids tell my kids if they don't go to church for a year they will probably go to hell.Lots of love eh?