Strange questions...

[Our Wings are Burning]

This may or may not be in the right section, but I told my pastor a few months ago that I believe in UR, and he's told me things I should read since then.  I told him that Origen was a universalist, and he didn't believe me.  Last Tuesday, my mom gave me a list of questions that he wants me to answer, and I'm having a hard time seeing how many of them even relate to what we're talking about.  Judging by the questions, he may have changed his mind about Origen since I talked to him.  I've written short answers to most of the questions, but I'm not really sure what he's looking for with most of them.  If anyone has any ideas, let me know.  Here they are (with my answers so far):

1.  What does the Bible identify as the source of heresy?
        1 John 4:1-3  Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh
2. What philosophy influenced Origen's thinking?
        Platonism
3. Explain the basic tenants of that philosophy.
        temporal and material things- insignificant and indifferent,
        real and eternal things are comprised in the idea
        (I got most of this answer from the wikipedia page on Origen)
4. What is the condition of people in the Lake of Fire?
        (The obvious answer he's looking for:)
        Rev. 20:10 - "tormented day and night for ever and ever"
5. What is the doctrine of penance? (most of this answer found at Wikipedia page on Penance)
        repentance of sins
        self-imposed activity to show sorrow for sins (f/ example Lent)
6. When does sorrow for sin change to paying for your own sin?
        Sorrow for sins turns into paying f/ your own sin when it becomes outward acts that one thinks will help atone
        for their wrongdoings.
7. What is wrong with the idea of the preexistence of souls?
        (The answer I'm sure he's looking for is on p. 106 of the book Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin.
          It's in the section on Jehovah's Witnesses)

[squeak]

This may or may not be in the right section, but I told my pastor a few months ago that I believe in UR, and he's told me things I should read since then.  I told him that Origen was a universalist, and he didn't believe me.  Last Tuesday, my mom gave me a list of questions that he wants me to answer, and I'm having a hard time seeing how many of them even relate to what we're talking about.  Judging by the questions, he may have changed his mind about Origen since I talked to him.  I've written short answers to most of the questions, but I'm not really sure what he's looking for with most of them.  If anyone has any ideas, let me know.  Here they are (with my answers so far):

Just gonna let you know if you are looking for the approval of men you will not get it.  Especially someone entrenched in man's traditions, as I believe pastors are.  That's my opinion for what it's worth.  To your questions below, here are my answers as best I can answer (and I will do so on my own not with the help of wiki!)

1.  What does the Bible identify as the source of heresy?
        1 John 4:1-3  Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh

Not sure how UR contradicts Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

2. What philosophy influenced Origen's thinking?
        Platonism

Who cares?  Origen was just a man.  It's not like UR'ist follow him exclusively.  He is but one witness.  I couldn't care less what influenced Origen, bc Origen isn't the reason I believe in UR.

3. Explain the basic tenants of that philosophy.
        temporal and material things- insignificant and indifferent,
        real and eternal things are comprised in the idea
        (I got most of this answer from the wikipedia page on Origen)

I've often heard it said that our entire culture is based on Platonism, and it is NOT indicative of eastern societies.  But again, who cares.  I'm sure we do live in a platonic society and much of the political correctness of our day can be traced there.  But that still doesn't negate that when you take the logos of God and try to apply reason to any theology that says God will actively sit by and punish his creation for creating them they way he did, just doesn't work.  What you need to ask your pastor, which I'm sure he hasn't ever considered, why is it that any empire that has risen on Christian fundamentalism (where hell is its ultimate power), becomes a post-Christian nation?  It is bc of the fatalism of the way that fundies interpret the "narrow way".  Eventually any success becomes highly suspect as heresy, and self-inflicted failure is the only way judge God's "perfection".

4. What is the condition of people in the Lake of Fire?
        (The obvious answer he's looking for:)
        Rev. 20:10 - "tormented day and night for ever and ever"

I think he's looking at it wrong.  It's not the condition of the people in the Lake of fire, but the NATURE of the lake of fire.  The condition of the ppl there are going to be tormented, that is the LoF's purpose, and the LoF is eternal that is its nature.  However man's sentence there is not.  Everyone has their part in the LoF.

5. What is the doctrine of penance? (most of this answer found at Wikipedia page on Penance)
        repentance of sins
        self-imposed activity to show sorrow for sins (f/ example Lent)

Again, part of man's tradition to make the work of Christ without effect.  Why is the doctrine of penance important since Jesus has paid it all?  God doesn't exact payment again and again for that which he's already rec'd the ransom, so this doctrine is just man-made bondage, in an effort to enslave ppl and probably separate them from their money (as in the time of selling indulgences). The book of Hebrews makes that perfectly clear.

6. When does sorrow for sin change to paying for your own sin?
        Sorrow for sins turns into paying f/ your own sin when it becomes outward acts that one thinks will help atone  for their wrongdoings.

I would say when ppl rest on their own self-righteousness and stop their self-examinations and start pointing to everyone around them.

7. What is wrong with the idea of the preexistence of souls?
        (The answer I'm sure he's looking for is on p. 106 of the book Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin.
          It's in the section on Jehovah's Witnesses)

Nothing from scripture.  I don't particularly like the idea myself, it gives me the feeling of some weird hinduism that says we're not really individuals and seems to put a limit on a number of souls God would allow into the world.  I personally reject it, and would say if it is true, then it is the ultimate hell.  But that's me.  I've never had a strong feeling in my heart witnessing to me that it was true, and that is what I rely upon in my relationship with God....not my pastor, not doctrines of men, but the things God writes upon my heart.

I hope this has helped you in your search.

[eirinikos]

Regarding Revelation 20:10, maybe you could go into a little about some of the words there..

For example, "brimstone" comes from theion, which is strong's # 2303


1) brimstone
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease


and also maybe "tormented" which is from #928

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind


Particularly #1, where it speaks of testing. J Preston Eby talked a lot about these words in one of his writings concerning the nature of the lake of fire.

I am pretty sure you won't be able to convince him, but between this site and others you should be able to arm yourself with enough ammo to keep him on his toes about it.

The most powerful thing is scripture. I like the "unique proof" document on this site...
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

I say print that out and ask him those True or False questions that are on there. See if he really believes what the scriptures plainly state.

[PaulTheJesusFreak]

Regarding Revelation 20:10, maybe you could go into a little about some of the words there..

For example, "brimstone" comes from theion, which is strong's # 2303


1) brimstone
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease


and also maybe "tormented" which is from #928

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

Quote from: Our Wings are Burning on March 27, 2008, 03:43:20 PM
4. What is the condition of people in the Lake of Fire?
        (The obvious answer he's looking for:)
        Rev. 20:10 - "tormented day and night for ever and ever"

I think he's looking at it wrong.  It's not the condition of the people in the Lake of fire, but the NATURE of the lake of fire.  The condition of the ppl there are going to be tormented, that is the LoF's purpose, and the LoF is eternal that is its nature.  However man's sentence there is not.  Everyone has their part in the LoF.

And to add...

Revelation 14:10-11 These are tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

These are tormented - not tortured.

They are tormented in the PRESENCE OF Holy Angels and the Lamb, aka Jesus Christ. The fire and brimstone of the lake of fire is divine, cleansing, as already stated, and these are of the Angels and God Himself, who IS an "All Consuming Fire", be sure to put a lot of emphasis on this.  :laughing7: :winkgrin: :thumbsup:

Fear hath torment! = 1 John 4:18

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[Pierac]

Hi Our Wings are Burning,   :hihat:

What you must understand is it may take over a year for you to answer all those questions. All the answers can be found on this website in the resources section. However, It will require a lot of reading to get specific. You are young, so slow down as you do not have to have all the answers now! From his list, it appears to me he is trying to associate your beliefs with a cult so that he can label you. So do not fall into that trap!  :thumbsup:

Give yourself time to explore and finalize your own belief, do not allow someone to force your hand to soon :2c:

Paul

[jabcat]

1.  What does the Bible identify as the source of heresy?
        1 John 4:1-3  Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh

2. What philosophy influenced Origen's thinking?
        Platonism--question the relevance to the truths of the reconciliation of all creation as taught in God's Word; "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:20,21;  and, He "has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL" (Romans 11:32)

3. Explain the basic tenants of that philosophy.
        temporal and material things- insignificant and indifferent,
        real and eternal things are comprised in the idea.  Again, however, question the relevance to the discussion of UR.  If referencing Origen, he was only one individual among many that believed in UR, including the apostle Paul.  Origen didn't have to have complete knowledge in all matters to be Biblically accurate in many areas.  No human teacher is 100% accurate.  Test the spirits, to see if accurately translated, properly divided, and Spirit-revealed scriptures bear witness.
       
4. What is the condition of people in the Lake of Fire?
                Rev. 20:10 - tormented [more accurately, tortured] (basanismo = tested as with a touchstone, to test for purity) for the remaining ages of the ages [the present age and the Last Age, until the present heaven and earth pass away].  Please see the accurate meaning of the words 'aion' and 'aionios' compared to their mistranslations of 'forever, forever and ever, never, world, eternal', etc.

5. What is the doctrine of penance?
        man's attempt to make himself right with God and/or somehow pay for the sins Jesus already paid for with His own life

6. When does sorrow for sin change to paying for your own sin?
        Sorrow for sin is a work of the Holy Spirit when we realize we displeased Father and missed the mark He has set for us.  We then are instructed to agree with God that we have sinned, and He "is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".   Jesus paid for our sins, but we will be held accountable for our faithfulness/lack thereof, as Jesus "burns" out the chaff from our lives...some now who will be the manifest sons of God and partakers of the first resurrection, all later in the Lake of Fire of God's Holy presence.  At that point, death and the grave (mistranslated 'hell') will be destroyed, "the Tree of Life will be for the healing of the nations", and "there will be no more curse", as reported in the last chapter of the Bible.

7. What is wrong with the idea of the preexistence of souls?  It's inaccurate...God breathes into the soul of man, bringing it life.  On the other hand, our spirits pre-existed with God, and will return to Him;    Eccl. 12:7  *the Spirit (RUWACH) shall return unto God who gave it.*

God's blessing, James.

[Our Wings are Burning]

I'll post more on this later, but I met with my pastor yesterday, and the main problems he said he had with UR were "my" version of Hell is a form of penance which trivializes Jesus' death (which is something not to take lightly, since Hebrews says that one can allow themselves to get to a point where there is no more repentance for sins), and that I'm not understanding that the condition of the people in the Lake of Fire is spiritually dead (although he didn't really back it up with Scripture, and I was too afraid to ask him to do so  :dontknow:  Me and my darn timidness).

Anyway, there's more I'll post later (I'll try to go through the questions one by one), and thanks to everyone for their responses so far.

[dboutwell]

Our wings,

I have seen some non-Ur people who think that we think being tormented for a time period in the lake of fire(also the same fire that baptizes believer) is what makes us righteous or worthy of salvation. It does not. There is salvation in no other but the blood of Jesus Christ. The torment simply brings us to the point of yeilding our will to the One who can save us.

Paul told the unbelievers at Athens that God commands all men everywhere to repent. To repent requires us to change our thinking. If we are convinced that we are right, we won't change. Our creator knows exactly what our "breaking point" is. What is the condition of the people in the lake of fire? As already answered, they are in the presence of God, Himself and are well on their way to repentance. They have to repent because of what Paul told the men at Athens. And, because of what Jesus, Himself said. "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself."

Just keep your cool with this pastor. Remember when you saw things like he does. He probably has your best interest at heart and is trying to keep you form being deceived by some heresy.  It's in the times when we are pressed the hardest that Christ IN us will show up.  I agree with the poster that said you will not get all these answers, especially down in your spirit where you know beyond a shadow of doubt that they are true, quickly. It took me about two years of trying to refute UR myself, because I didn't want to be deceived. When I could not refute it satisfactorily, I, with great exhilaration and gratitude, embraced it whole heartedly.

There is more to UR that knowing the "right" doctrine. If we allow it to it will change us. We will start to have real faith in God because we know He is sensible and really does love us. It is easy to have faith in someone like that! Your timidness could be a plus for you right now.....we tend to get cocky with our new revelations :(    Go ahead and ask for scripture references if you need to then take them home and study the fire out of them.

Anyway here are my answers. I don't use Origen to uphold UR but that's because of my own ignorance and lack of need for it. People in my neck of the woods would say, "who is Origen?" So, for lack of time I didnt answer those questions.

1.    What does the Bible identify as the source of heresy?

I didn't see where the Bible said, "and the source of heresy is______."  From the way "heresy" is used, it appears to be what someone believes that is contrary to what other people believe.


2.    What philosophy influenced Origen's thinking?


3.    Explain the basic tenants of that philosophy.

4.    What is the condition of people in the Lake of Fire?

Personally, a good old fashioned word to describe them would be "under conviction". After all they are in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels. The word torment mean to test for genuineness. Brimstone means sulfur which is for purification and cleansing. Forever and ever means for the ages unto the ages, which to me is a good way to say "however long it takes for them to come to the end of themselves and call on the Lord"

5.     What is the doctrine of penance?

Main thing is it does not pertain to UR. UR says all men are reconciled back to God through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Eventually ALL repent, ALL call upon the Lord. ALL will bow before the King and ALL will confess Christ as Lord.

American Heritage Dictionary...An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing. A sacrament in some Christian churches that includes contrition, confession to a priest, acceptance of punishment, and absolution. Also called reconciliation.

Dictionary.com ,,,a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin. 
a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with a penitential discipline imposed by church authority.

6.     When does sorrow for sin change to paying for your own sin?

Our sins will never be paid for by our sorrow. It only brings us to the realization that we need a savior. Our sins were paid for by the precious blood of Christ Jesus, the sacrificial Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.
   
Debbie :)

[jabcat]

I really like #4 Debbie  :thumbsup:.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Try asking him if he really believes that God's love for mankind is greater than a mother's love for her children.

Love to all,
Brian

[Our Wings are Burning]

Well, like I said, my pastor and I had our discussion on Sunday, and a lot of what he said kind of took me by surprise, and it seems I answered a lot of his questions wrong. Here are the answers he was looking for...

1. What does the Bible identify as the source of heresy?
The flesh is the source of heresy (Where he got this in the Bible I'm not really sure, but again, I was too timid to ask him how he came up with that.  I asked him how he defined heresy, and he said something to the effect of "false ideas about God" or something.

2. What philosophy influenced Origen's thinking?
Whatever it was, Platonism wasn't the answer he was looking for.  He was looking for an answer from this book Eardmann's History of Christianity, but he couldn't remember the answer he wanted out of that question.

3. Explain the basic tenants of that philosophy.
He sort of went into Platonism since that was the answer I gave and said something like, "You know who else thinks the material world isn't important?  The Christian Scientists.  People tell them they have cancer, and they just respond, 'No I don't, it's just an illusion.  Pain isn't real, this life is just a temporal dream.'

4. What is the condition of people in the Lake of Fire?
He wasn't looking for "tormented for ever and ever", but that the people in the Lake of Fire are spiritually dead, therefore they have no chance or ability to accept God.

5. What is the doctrine of penance?
Penance is doing something to pay for your sin.  If someone is to go through Hell and, after they've "had enough", God says, "That's enough, you can get out now and come to Heaven," then that's the same as penance, which is a false idea.  It takes away the necessity of the Atonement.

My pastor takes the Atonement very seriously and feels strongly that it "shouldn't be touched".  He feels it is something that we need to be careful about talking about, since one can "trample underfoot the blood of Christ", as mentioned in Hebrews.

I tried to explain that the blood of Christ has already paid for everyone's sin and that Hell was just a place of purification / sanctification, but he wasn't really hearing it.

6. When does sorrow for sin change to paying for your own sin?
Never. (apparently I misread the question)

7. What is wrong with the idea of the preexistence of souls?
Preexistence of souls, according to my pastor, is the belief that all humans are alive with God in another realm, and if they're good enough, God will let them out of that realm to come and live on Earth.  He mentioned that to show that that's sort of the same idea as "my" idea of Hell.  People are let out once their "good enough".


As for Origen, my pastor realized that he did believe in Universalism, but according to the book where he found this information, was killed as a heretic because of it (and sort of gave the impression that those who killed him were justified in doing so).  I showed him that Origen wasn't the only one during that time who believed in Universalism by showing him this appendix in the book Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin. (page 229 here: http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf)  He said that this was because the Bible wasn't even completely written until a couple hundred years after Jesus' death, so as the church leaders were trying to work things out, they may have had some false ideas in the process (This is also how he explained why universalism wasn't declared a heresy until the fifth century (I think)).

His main two points and problems with Universalism: People in the Lake of Fire are spiritually dead, and the universalist idea of Hell is the same as penance, which is a man-made concept that one can pay for his own sin.


However, even through all this, I'm still extremely glad that I talked to him about this rather than some other Christian leader.  He said that he can see why Universalists believe what they do, and that the belief comes out of having a good heart, but he wants to stay away from any belief that makes light of the atonement.  He realizes that one can still be a Christian and believe in this, but he's still hung up on the idea of it violating the atonement.

Anyway, at the end of our conversation, he gave me a short list of books I should read (namely, a couple by A.W. Tozer, one by Alexander Whyte, and Charles Spurgeon's sermons along with another of his books.  I don't have the list with me otherwise I'd write the names of the books).

Now comes the shocker (are you ready for this?):

He got pretty serious at this point, and started saying something like this (I'll rewrite what I heard as best as I remember): "I'm not going to be around forever.  As a matter of fact, I could walk out of here today and die in a car accident.  I've done by best to teach [my son] and give him the right books to read so that if something ever happened to me, he could take over for me.  And I think he'd do a good job.  [He may have said this sentence earlier but it still applies...] Now the stuff you're learning about, the majority of this congregation will probably never look into...  If you read these books I gave you, it will put you on the fast track so that someday maybe you could be his right hand, just like he is for me.  We don't have any hangups when it comes to having gone to school.  Some churches won't even look at you twice if you haven't gone to school, but we don't have that problem here.  When I was in my early 20's, my church decided that I was to start teaching a class, and I had two weeks to prepare my first lesson, so I read this book called "Acts of the Apostles" and taught that book for my first lesson.  I did this every week after, I would read a book and teach it in class.  If you read these books I've told you about, it will put you on the fast track.  People these days don't read this stuff anymore.  I can't promise you anything, but if you read these, it will help put you on the fast track."

I don't know if he thinks he's purged Universalism out of my system or what, but I was (and still am, to some degree) in a bit of a state of shock.  If what I believe here is a heresy, why in the world would he even consider me for succeeding him or his son?  I suppose it might be because I'm the only one my age at church who reads (or seems to care) as much as I do about religion and faith, but I was quite surprised anyway.

So, our conversation ended, and I gave him a copy of the "unique proof" that eirinikos suggested, and a copy of the discussion I had with someone who disagrees with me about Universalism (I posted it earlier here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2218.0).  I wanted him to have a better idea of why I believe what I believe.

Oh, one more thing he said, was that A.W. Tozer was one of the best experts on cults, and that he dedicated his life to finding them and exposing them.  My pastor said that sometimes Tozer would read a book about a cult and be so convinced by it that he would have to call on God and say, "I don't know what to do now, Lord, I'm starting to believe this.  Help me."  This, along with some of the other stuff he said, really got me thinking and caught me off guard.  It makes me want to be absolutely sure of what I believe.  However, whenever I start thinking I may have been deceived by Universalism, I remember that it isn't the same as believing a cult.  All it's done has fulfilled and answered a lot of the questions I've had about Christianity, and has taken away my intense fear of Hell.

[Pierac]

Thomas Talbott in the book "Universal Salvation? The Current Debate" . States, the whole thrust of Jesus's teaching, moreover, pointed in the same direction.

He categorically rejected the prevailing understanding of the retaliatory justice.

Mat 5:38  "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.,

the prevailing understanding of limited forgiveness...


Mat 18:21  Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22  Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

and the prevailing understanding of a limited obligation to love


Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45  so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Why, according to Jesus, are we to love our enemies as well as our friends? So that we might be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect Why should there be no limit to our forgiveness? So that we might be perfect as even our Father in heaven is perfect. Why must we forsake retaliation of a retributivist kind?  So that we might be perfect for even as our Father in heaven is perfect.  As I see it, then, we have here overwhelming evidence that God, as Jesus understood him, never ceases to love his own enemies, never ceases forgiving them, and sees no ultimate justice in punishment of the retributivist kind. The idea that we are expected to be better than God is unthinkable.

Paul

[1beggar]

I'll post more on this later, but I met with my pastor yesterday, and the main problems he said he had with UR were "my" version of Hell is a form of penance which trivializes Jesus' death (which is something not to take lightly, since Hebrews says that one can allow themselves to get to a point where there is no more repentance for sins), and that I'm not understanding that the condition of the people in the Lake of Fire is spiritually dead (although he didn't really back it up with Scripture, and I was too afraid to ask him to do so  :dontknow:  Me and my darn timidness).

Anyway, there's more I'll post later (I'll try to go through the questions one by one), and thanks to everyone for their responses so far.

I wonder how he feels about "asking Jesus into your heart."  Does that not also trivialize the atonement, and make our salvation about something we do?  If he really wanted to be consistent, it seems he would have to believe in no hell at all for anyone.  That would take the Atonement "seriously."

[Our Wings are Burning]

I wonder how he feels about "asking Jesus into your heart."  Does that not also trivialize the atonement, and make our salvation about something we do?  If he really wanted to be consistent, it seems he would have to believe in no hell at all for anyone.  That would take the Atonement "seriously."

I tried to make that point to him, but it was to no avail.  :sigh:

[friarted]

Origen was martyred by the pagan Romans, not executed by the Church as a heretic. He was condemned by a church council 200-300 years after his death for heresy. Up to then, the church authorities thought his some of his views were wacky (they were) but never got around to ruling them heretical. And Origen did not in any way DENY the reality of matter or the material nature of Jesus's Incarnation.

Also, while I respect A.W. Tozer, where does this idea come from that he was a great expert on cults? Of all the Tozer books I've seen, I never saw anything indicating that.

All due respect to your pastor but he really needs to do more research. I'm Hopeful UR & I can come up with sounder objections than any of this.

[Craig]

As for Origen, my pastor realized that he did believe in Universalism, but according to the book where he found this information, was killed as a heretic because of it (and sort of gave the impression that those who killed him were justified in doing so).  I showed him that Origen wasn't the only one during that time who believed in Universalism by showing him this appendix in the book Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin. (page 229 here: http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf)  He said that this was because the Bible wasn't even completely written until a couple hundred years after Jesus' death, so as the church leaders were trying to work things out, they may have had some false ideas in the process (This is also how he explained why universalism wasn't declared a heresy until the fifth century (I think)).

Origen was martyred by the pagan Romans, not executed by the Church as a heretic. He was condemned by a church council 200-300 years after his death for heresy. Up to then, the church authorities thought his some of his views were wacky (they were) but never got around to ruling them heretical. And Origen did not in any way DENY the reality of matter or the material nature of Jesus's Incarnation.

Also, while I respect A.W. Tozer, where does this idea come from that he was a great expert on cults? Of all the Tozer books I've seen, I never saw anything indicating that.

All due respect to your pastor but he really needs to do more research. I'm Hopeful UR & I can come up with sounder objections than any of this.

Yea, I would say this pastor is very misinformed on all his facts. Origen's writings and beliefs were accepted and untouched for 200 years after his death. Origen died a 'saint' to the church, and then 200 years later the Emperor (not the pope) convened the Fifth Ecunumical council to declare Origen and his writings heresy.

Let me quote what I wrote for the Universal Reconciliation article in Wikepedia concerning it:

It should also be noted, the Fifth Ecumenical Council has been contested as being an official and authorized Ecumenical Council because it was established not by the Pope, but the Emperor because of the Pope's resistance to it. ^[2] It is Ecumenical Law, that all Ecumenical Council's must be approved by the Pope, and this one was not.

It should also be noted that the Fifth Ecumenical Council addressed what was called "The Three Chapters" ^[1] and was against a form of Origenism which truly had nothing to do with Origen and Origenist views. In fact, Popes Vigilius, Pelagius I (556-61), Pelagius II (579-90), and Gregory the Great(590-604)were only aware the Fifth Council specifically dealt with the Three Chapters and make no mention of Origenism or Universalism, nor spoke as if they knew of its condemnation even though Gregory the Great was opposed to the belief of universalism. <sup>[2]

[1]^ CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Three Chapters
[2]^ CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Origen and Origenism</sup>

What is called the Fifth Ecumenical Council, is actually what was called the Second Council of Constantinople, a council set up by the Emperor's and not the Pope or the Church and is rejected by the Eastern Orthodox Church as a result.

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_councilconstant.htm

Now, get this. Because the Fifth Ecunemical Council was not official, the current Roman Catholic Pope, is in the process of stating Origen as a church Father because this Pope is one of the few scholars of the RCC (prior to being pope), who noticed this error of the Fifth Ecumemical Council not being a true Ecumemical Council and he is sticky on these things. Problem with this is, the perpetuality of Mary's virginity was affirmed by the Fifth Ecumemical Council, and to reject it, rejects one of the largest of Catholic doctrines.

Read what the Pope Benedict XVI said last year in April of 2007 concerning Origen.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=9094&size=A
http://www.zenit.org/article-19466?l=english

Our catechetical journey through the early Church brings us to the remarkable figure of Origen of Alexandria. This great teacher of the faith was highly esteemed by his students not only for his theological brilliance, but also for his exemplary moral conduct. His father, Leonides, was martyred during the reign of Septimius Severus. Though Origen himself always had a deep yearning to die a martyr's death, he decided that the best way to honour his father and glorify Christ was by living a good and upright life. Later, under the emperor Decius, he was arrested and tortured for his faith, dying a few years later. Origen is best known for his unique contribution to theology: an "irreversible turn" which grounded theology in Scripture. He emphasized an allegorical and spiritual reading of the word of God, and demonstrated how the three levels of meaning -- the literal, the moral, and the spiritual -- progressively lead us to a deeper prayer life and closer relationship with God. Origen teaches us that when we meditate on God's word and conform our lives to it, we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us to the fullness of truth. May we follow Origen's example by praying with scripture, always listening attentively to God's word.

[willieH]

I'll post more on this later, but I met with my pastor yesterday, and the main problems he said he had with UR were "my" version of Hell is a form of penance which trivializes Jesus' death (which is something not to take lightly, since Hebrews says that one can allow themselves to get to a point where there is no more repentance for sins), and that I'm not understanding that the condition of the people in the Lake of Fire is spiritually dead (although he didn't really back it up with Scripture, and I was too afraid to ask him to do so  :dontknow:  Me and my darn timidness).

Anyway, there's more I'll post later (I'll try to go through the questions one by one), and thanks to everyone for their responses so far.

I wonder how he feels about "asking Jesus into your heart."  Does that not also trivialize the atonement, and make our salvation about something we do?  If he really wanted to be consistent, it seems he would have to believe in no hell at all for anyone.  That would take the Atonement "seriously."

:goodpost:  Amen 1Beggar!

...willieH  :thumbsup:

[willieH]

Hi Our Wings are Burning,   :hihat:

What you must understand is it may take over a year for you to answer all those questions. All the answers can be found on this website in the resources section. However, It will require a lot of reading to get specific. You are young, so slow down as you do not have to have all the answers now! From his list, it appears to me he is trying to associate your beliefs with a cult so that he can label you. So do not fall into that trap!  :thumbsup:

Give yourself time to explore and finalize your own belief, do not allow someone to force your hand to soon :2c:

Paul

Wise counsel brother P... wise counsel!  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi OWAB... peace be untaya!  :Peace:

Just a comment or two on your post...  :wink1:

1. What does the Bible identify as the source of heresy?
The flesh is the source of heresy (Where he got this in the Bible I'm not really sure, but again, I was too timid to ask him how he came up with that.  I asked him how he defined heresy, and he said something to the effect of "false ideas about God" or something.

Actually, "heresy" should not be defined by opinion (which it literally ALWAYS IS, concerning Christian dialogue)... rather, it should be noted by and from the source it aspires to identify, from a BIBLICAL perspective...

The Greek words which are translated Heresy/Heresies (hairesis #139 strongs), Heretic (hairetizo #141 strongs)... actually connotate CHOICE... and states this choice to be noting DISUNION... (#139) 

The only SOURCE which can identify HERESY, is the WORD of GOD...  It one embraces something which is NOT in the WORD of GOD, then that particular thing can be considered HERESY...  There are many such things, Rapture, Trinity, Separation from God, Free will, 2nd coming of CHRIST, ...and many, many others which are embraced in general, by CHRISTIANITY! ...

For the moment, might I discuss just ONE, ...HELL...

There IS, ...NO word in Scripture which actually means what is taught by Christianity in general...  Gehenna (Gk/NT) was an actual PLACE outside of Jerusalem where DEAD bodies were burned, ...and Hades, Tartaros (Gk/NT), and Sheol (Heb/OT) were terms which related to and MEANT the GRAVE...

There is NO BIBLICAL reason to tie Gehenna to Hades, Sheol and Tartaros... yet Christianity notes ALL these terms as the SAME!

I have done a little study on this, and JESUS only used the two terms GEHENNA and HADES... and on only SEVEN occasions (days) were either of these spoken in over 1200 DAYS of MINISTRY...

This IN ITSELF, shows that JESUS was not about teaching either of these... also,

PAUL and JOHN (2 of the most prevalent writers of the NT), did NOT speak of HELL, AT ALL!  There is ONE appearance of the word Hades in PAUL's writings, found in 1 Cor 15:55 and CONVENIENTLY it is translated GRAVE in that instance... :rolleye:

Even the English word HELL actually (in olde English) means COVERED or UNSEEN... it does NOT mean a FIREPIT of ENDLESS duration...   Traditions of the General Christian philosphy are so riddled with paganism and fallacy, that it borders on pathetic... and any HONEST and SINCERE research shall reveal these discrepancies...  :dontknow:

2. What philosophy influenced Origen's thinking?
Whatever it was, Platonism wasn't the answer he was looking for.  He was looking for an answer from this book Eardmann's History of Christianity, but he couldn't remember the answer he wanted out of that question.

NO ONE can note a "philosophy" that influenced Origen's thinking... The "philosphy" which influenced his thinking was the WORD and HOLY SPIRIT of GOD... as He REVEALED the TRUTH of Universal Reconcilation to him...

3. Explain the basic tenants of that philosophy.
He sort of went into Platonism since that was the answer I gave and said something like, "You know who else thinks the material world isn't important?  The Christian Scientists.  People tell them they have cancer, and they just respond, 'No I don't, it's just an illusion.  Pain isn't real, this life is just a temporal dream.'

What a sidestep your pastor takes... He should KNOW better, claiming to be a teacher, ordained of God... then proceeding to note Platonism... Anyone who endeavors to TEACH of the things of GOD, and ventures OUTSIDE the WORD in an endeavor to convince, is using evidence OUTSIDE GOD, manufactured by MEN...  :thumbdown:

4. What is the condition of people in the Lake of Fire?
He wasn't looking for "tormented for ever and ever", but that the people in the Lake of Fire are spiritually dead, therefore they have no chance or ability to accept God.

THIS LIFE, ...is the LAKE of FIRE... Those in the LAKE of FIRE (all men) are spiritually DEAD... and only GOD, who is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS is able to REGENERATE the DEAD from that state... which HE shall DO (men cannot DO it) before the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY (John 6:44 & 65)

5. What is the doctrine of penance?
Penance is doing something to pay for your sin.  If someone is to go through Hell and, after they've "had enough", God says, "That's enough, you can get out now and come to Heaven," then that's the same as penance, which is a false idea.  It takes away the necessity of the Atonement.

Penance is a MANufactured teaching... NO Biblical basis for it... ATONEMENT means to BECOME - AT ONE...  Which again is the work of GOD in ALL... (Phil 2:10-11 / Rom 14:11 / 1 Cor 15:28)

My pastor takes the Atonement very seriously and feels strongly that it "shouldn't be touched".  He feels it is something that we need to be careful about talking about, since one can "trample underfoot the blood of Christ", as mentioned in Hebrews.

Your pastor is encased in FEAR... as he teaches you to be afraid that you shall "trample underfoot the blood of Christ"... misunderstanding that we shall not find SEPARATION from the LOVE of GOD... ever!  Which this "trampling" proposes! (Rom 8:38-39)

There is NO FEAR in LOVE, OWAB! (1 John 4:18)

I tried to explain that the blood of Christ has already paid for everyone's sin and that Hell was just a place of purification / sanctification, but he wasn't really hearing it.

There is NO "HELL" OWAB... as I have previously explained...  The "purifications" are done here, ...IN the LAKE of FIRE, to all and for all prior to the conclusion of the LAST DAY...

6. When does sorrow for sin change to paying for your own sin?
Never. (apparently I misread the question)

We can NEVER "pay" for SIN... we can only suffer for it... which we DO, in this life...

7. What is wrong with the idea of the preexistence of souls?
Preexistence of souls, according to my pastor, is the belief that all humans are alive with God in another realm, and if they're good enough, God will let them out of that realm to come and live on Earth.  He mentioned that to show that that's sort of the same idea as "my" idea of Hell.  People are let out once their "good enough".

There is no such thing as "preexistence"... WE have ALWAYS BEEN... anything which is ETERNAL, has no beginning... as Father YHVH is ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28)... then the ALL which HE is IN ALL... has NO ORIGIN...

The ONLY beginning and end we have, is this process on earth which GOD gives to His Children the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL...

His main two points and problems with Universalism: People in the Lake of Fire are spiritually dead, and the universalist idea of Hell is the same as penance, which is a man-made concept that one can pay for his own sin.

Your pastor is not in touch with Universalism... He has read anothers comments on it... and makes deduction of it IN GENERAL, from that reading...

There is ...NO HELL... permanent OR temporary.

However, even through all this, I'm still extremely glad that I talked to him about this rather than some other Christian leader.  He said that he can see why Universalists believe what they do, and that the belief comes out of having a good heart, but he wants to stay away from any belief that makes light of the atonement.  He realizes that one can still be a Christian and believe in this, but he's still hung up on the idea of it violating the atonement.

Anyway, at the end of our conversation, he gave me a short list of books I should read (namely, a couple by A.W. Tozer, one by Alexander Whyte, and Charles Spurgeon's sermons along with another of his books.  I don't have the list with me otherwise I'd write the names of the books).

Now comes the shocker (are you ready for this?):

He got pretty serious at this point, and started saying something like this (I'll rewrite what I heard as best as I remember): "I'm not going to be around forever.  As a matter of fact, I could walk out of here today and die in a car accident.  I've done by best to teach [my son] and give him the right books to read so that if something ever happened to me, he could take over for me.  And I think he'd do a good job.  [He may have said this sentence earlier but it still applies...] Now the stuff you're learning about, the majority of this congregation will probably never look into...  If you read these books I gave you, it will put you on the fast track so that someday maybe you could be his right hand, just like he is for me.  We don't have any hangups when it comes to having gone to school.  Some churches won't even look at you twice if you haven't gone to school, but we don't have that problem here.  When I was in my early 20's, my church decided that I was to start teaching a class, and I had two weeks to prepare my first lesson, so I read this book called "Acts of the Apostles" and taught that book for my first lesson.  I did this every week after, I would read a book and teach it in class.  If you read these books I've told you about, it will put you on the fast track.  People these days don't read this stuff anymore.  I can't promise you anything, but if you read these, it will help put you on the fast track."

I don't know if he thinks he's purged Universalism out of my system or what, but I was (and still am, to some degree) in a bit of a state of shock.  If what I believe here is a heresy, why in the world would he even consider me for succeeding him or his son?  I suppose it might be because I'm the only one my age at church who reads (or seems to care) as much as I do about religion and faith, but I was quite surprised anyway.

No offense to you OWAB (or your pastor)... but if your pastor was a TRUE teacher of GOD, he would recommend you study the WORD of GOD for YOURSELF, ...not recommend books written by other FALLIBLE men, about that WORD... and thereby  draw your (beliefs) conclusions from them...  :dontknow:

Oh, one more thing he said, was that A.W. Tozer was one of the best experts on cults, and that he dedicated his life to finding them and exposing them.  My pastor said that sometimes Tozer would read a book about a cult and be so convinced by it that he would have to call on God and say, "I don't know what to do now, Lord, I'm starting to believe this.  Help me."

Don't know this "A.W. Tozer"... but anyone determining another entity as a "cult" is doing so OUTSIDE of Biblical Directive... The "Cult" is determined to be so, by using the comparisons of General Christianity's Beliefs, to that particular group... and if enough disagreement is found, then the group is named a "Cult"... Please!  :rolleye:

JESUS CHRIST would be called a "cult leader" in His day by the Pharisees - eh?  (I can't "roll my eyes" enough at this RELIGIOUS tactic to belittle those who are studying for themselves to find the truths of the Word of GOD.)

This, along with some of the other stuff he said, really got me thinking and caught me off guard.  It makes me want to be absolutely sure of what I believe.  However, whenever I start thinking I may have been deceived by Universalism, I remember that it isn't the same as believing a cult.  All it's done has fulfilled and answered a lot of the questions I've had about Christianity, and has taken away my intense fear of Hell.

MORMONS and JEHOVAH's WITNESSES are named as "cults" by Christianity in general YET...  YET...

The Word of GOD states that NO MAN CAN call JESUS CHRIST ...lord... except BY the power of the HOLY SPIRIT... (1 Cor 12:3)... which would name GOD as a co-conspiritor to the establishment of the "CULT", as He GIVES these the POWER to CONFESS this TRUTH...

The word CULT is a MANufactured word, and is NOT found in the WORD of GOD, nor are there any DIRECTIVES within the WORD to so name these organizations as such.

RELIGION names other "RELIGIONS" which disagree with their own, as preaching "another gospel"... and yet ERROR is easily found in the one which they themselves preach...  :thumbdown:

No one is RIGHT, and No one is WRONG... a given person is either VEILED or REVEALED in any given area, and that STATUS is GOD's decision...  :thumbsup:

CHRIST died for ALL, not some... yet some would claim that for themselves and JUDGE others with that gift... using their own potential fallible vision as basis for that judgment... 

Glad that YOU got your eyes and ears on OWAB!  :happyclap:

And WELCOME to TENTMAKER!  :welcome:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[jabcat]

willieH: Hi OWAB... peace be untaya!  :Peace:

The only SOURCE which can identify HERESY, is the WORD of GOD...  It one embraces something which is NOT in the WORD of GOD, then that particular thing can be considered HERESY...  There are many such things, Rapture, Trinity, Separation from God, Free will, 2nd coming of CHRIST, ...and many, many others which are embraced in general, by CHRISTIANITY! ...

Anyone who endeavors to TEACH of the things of GOD, and ventures OUTSIDE the WORD in an endeavor to convince, is using evidence OUTSIDE GOD, manufactured by MEN...  :thumbdown:


The Word of GOD states that NO MAN CAN call JESUS CHRIST ...lord... except BY the power of the HOLY SPIRIT... (1 Cor 12:3)... which would name GOD as a co-conspiritor to the establishment of the "CULT", as He GIVES these the POWER to CONFESS this TRUTH...

:goodpost:  Refreshing Willie, and as you say, there are many more heresies that can be added that are either extra-scriptural and/or anti-scriptural that don't all come out of churchianity.  Deceit is rampant...we will all still have some differing opinions, but thank you for being scripture-based in your POV.  At least that gives "wings" an opportunity to search out the truth rather than just go by man's opinions.  UR is in scripture, not a MANufactured doctrine.  Good show!  God's blessing, James.

[Our Wings are Burning]

Yeah, I have a real hard time getting excited about reading something that he's trying to use to get me to conform to his views.

This is kind of off-topic, but I'm kind of having a hard time with "Scripture" lately.  I'm having a hard time knowing what to take as God-inspired and what to take as man-tainted.  I've also been doing the "read the Bible in a year" thing, and have been in the Old Testament a lot.  How do I reconcile a God who orders the slaughter of thousands with this all-loving God we talk about in UR?  For instance, how would I respond to someone who believes in ET who throws the "Old Testament God" in my face?  I realize that God will take all the time He needs to save people, but I don't know how I'd react if I felt God was telling me to wipe out a nation.

[jabcat]

We'll keep it UR related, then we're on topic OK.  It seems when God shows many UR, it's such a shocking revelation, we then begin to question other things we've believed.  I personally did this.  I read much of the things people were posting on this discussion board, and although I've been saved for over 30 years, I began to doubt some things that I've now come back to hold as basics of being a believer.  I was swayed a bit by some of the things I read, but what happened to me personally was that God very clearly and sharply convicted me of my unbelief and strongly guided me to take a new grasp on some things.  Those things included that all of the scripture is God-breathed (inspired) just as God says through Paul that it is.  I didn't understand many of the things you mention in the OT, and admittedly still don't, but He "dragged" me to believe it was His Word nonetheless.  What He's been showing me about that is several things which I can only touch on, and there are scriptures that address this in the NT...the things that happened were for our learning, and were a 'type' of things to come in Jesus for our salvation and the grace He would offer us...I believe some things in scripture are symbolic, but still true and still the words of God...so we don't discard them, we take them to Him in prayer saying "God I believe, help my unbelief."  I prayed for God to give me wisdom and specifically to help me "believe what's true".  He has revealed to me that unless it is clearly something in scripture that can be shown to have been a specific, verifiable tampering, such as apparently is the case with I believe is a portion in I John 5:7, then they are His words.  These blatant instances appear to be very rare, and most discrepancies can be accounted for in copying/spelling error. Of course we don't have the originals, so translation and further revelation (which God is actively doing) is a really big thing I believe...but it's in the scripture, not denying scripture that God reveals Himself through His Spirit. I read/hear that the earliest manuscripts agree with each other from 96-99+ percent, depending on who you reference.  God promised to preserve His Word for us, so do we believe Him or not.  He says in Psalm 118:89 that His Word (logos) is forever [to the age] settled in heaven.  He also said through Paul that all scripture is God-breathed.  So again, we either believe and stand on it and ask God for His wisdom and understanding; and are thereby changed by it and by God's Spirit as He reveals it to us and leads us exactly where He wants us to go; or, we allow the adversary to fool us into thinking we can follow our own carnal minds that are enmity against God, choose what we think is "right in our own eyes", "lean to our own understanding" and our "vain imaginations";  then we can become deceieved and deceive others; because we've left the pattern God laid out for us. 

Some will try to question God's Word by talking about the logos vs. the rhema.  It is often claimed that the rhema is the "revealed/spoken word", whereas the logos is the written word.  There is evidence that actually much of that difference is manufactured, and there are scriptures that I can reference where those words were used interchangeably, actually as synonyms.  Yes, God's Word became flesh in Jesus.  But IMO, that doesn't also negate God's written words from also being God's Word. Scripture doesn't say "so the logos stopped being God's Word"...God and all God is was revealed in Jesus, as He became flesh. Again, some try to separate Jesus from the written word, and the Spirit from the written word.  IMO, and again, I believe it can be shown with scripture, that they work in accord...they complement each other, they go together, one is not exclusive of the other.  Some try to say Jesus is the Word (which He is) to try to prove then that the written Word is no longer to be trusted, or that much of it is not even inspired or God's words at all.  I believe that is in error, and again, there's scripture to support it. 

The other thing God has shown me is that although He never changes, He still has set up different ages and dispensations, in which He dealt (and will deal) with mankind in certain ways for certain purposes.  We are now in the age of grace for the Gentiles and a few Jews who God chooses to reveal Himself to.  So in this age of grace and mercy, I don't think we have to worry at all about God telling us to slaughter a nation.  Jesus fulfilled the Law, is/was the objective of the Law, and He says to turn the other cheek, to pray for those who hurt us, etc.  Age of grace, age of reconciliation, age of mercy.  Yes God showed all those things at certain times to certain peoples in the OT, but not as a general "rule of thumb" or "M.O.".  He was working other purposes as part of His great plan that now includes us in this dispensation, then all Israel in (I believe) the next, then absolutely ALL when it's all said and done.  UR is found in the Word, it's a revelation by the Spirit of the Word.

I'll quit now, but I felt a great urgency to answer you.  God has led me through the wilderness a bit with this, and I hope it can be of help to you.  I sense that your heart is good, it's good ground, so can absorb good seed.  Pray that the good seed is neither choked out nor carried away, but takes root and grows in God's grace.  God's blessing, James.

[Our Wings are Burning]

I know this is probably obvious to you, but you didn't mention the whole "Hell is eternal" thing in relation to God preserving His word.  My pastor uses that whole idea of preservation to say that "if you throw out the idea of Hell, then you might as well throw the whole book away."  Something like that not being "preserved" seems pretty important.  How do I know other important issues are not misconstrued?  Or do I just need to do more research in the original languages?  If it is so obvious that the "eternal" words are mistranslated, why don't more people notice?

My point is, how do I know I'm not misreading things like I accuse those of doing so who believe in ET?

[jabcat]

Hi Wings.  Good questions, and though I don't have all the answers, I'll try to help.  Maybe others will  have scripturally based helpful things to add as well.

IMO, God preserving His Word means that it's available to us to learn from and be continually discovering new revelations within it as He chooses to reveal it to us.  It's my understanding that much of Christianity did believe UR before the Dark Ages apostacies hid it for awhile.  There's also a thought that it's part of God's overall "Big Plan" that some things are veiled from certain groups and for certain time periods, again, until He chooses to lift the veil.  For instance, as a nation as a whole, Israel cannot see Jesus as Messiah right now, because scripture states He chose to put a veil over their eyes until a later time when "all Israel shall be saved".  So, the truths are there in the Word the whole time.  It just has to be revealed, brought to life for us, and God does so as we seek Him, but also as He chooses.   

There are many things to understand that perhaps have been misconstrued at least to a degree.  An example is how mainstream talks about "going to church", when in fact, the word "church" is not even in the manuscripts.  It is ecclesia, meaning "the called out ones".  So we don't go to "church", we are the "church", the body of Christ.  So we live "church" as we gather together in His name to fellowship, worship, and share His life in us...and He is there in our midst.  If that is in a building with a steeple, or someone's home, or in the woods, again, we are the "church". So yes, there are things to understand and to be revealed.  Gary Amirault believes God is in the process of shedding light on scriptures we've been having problems understanding, and he expects that to increase dramatically in the way of a "breakthrough" in the near future. 

So yes, the more we do learn of the scriptural languages, as well as study those individuals that have much understanding and knowledge, and when we pray about it and ask God to show us His truths, then the more God reveals His truths to us through His Spirit within His Word.  IMO, many problems arise when we reject scripture as not being truth, then we're truly opening ourselves to deceit and error, and many in this day are teaching those errors.  So I believe any revelations the Spirit gives us can be backed up by accurately translated, properly divided, and Spirit revealed scripture.

All of scripture, Gary's writing, J. Preston Eby are things I personally recommend.  I get some benefit from reading other writers, but again, I think we have to be careful and make sure what we're getting can be checked by the Spirit and scripture.

As to your final "misreading" question...I will share from my personal experience.  I believe God chose to show me UR, when He did, and how He did.  Also, I can find it in scripture, with accurate translation and with "the veil" lifted...all His doing, I didn't lift the veil, He did.  If your spirit bears witness in you that this is a revelation from God...UR, as well as anything...then take it to the Word, make sure it can be tested against accurately translated scripture...ask God to help you believe what's true, and through His Spirit He will.

God's blessing, James.