Tentmaker Forum

Hi all;

For some reason, I just cannot shake the UR thing. Seems it would be easier to just accept hell like everyone else. But then again, it causes me much trepidation. I do a lot of street preaching and hell is part of that, but in the back of my mind there is a nagging doubt about it. I can see punishment, but thinking of being tortured FOREVER just seems so beyond my ability to comprehend. I cannot reconcile it with my God who so mercifully died on a cross for me.

Anyway, as I come back here, again, I guess there are just a few things that make me wonder. I would like to be able to just throw them out there. Please know that I am asking them in all sincerity and not as some banter starter.

I guess the first thing that bothers me is this;

Why, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

And if all is okay, is there really any reason to preach to cult groups like the Mormons? Why should I bother? What good will it do?

I will just start with those as putting too many out there just seems to get muddy.

Thanks in advance and God bless you all.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 24, 2008, 06:11:51 AM
Why, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

And if all is okay, is there really any reason to preach to cult groups like the Mormons? Why should I bother? What good will it do?

Although there are a couple of New Testament Scriptures about our adversary the devil walking about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, there's no reason to believe that he's responsible for the majority of our temptations.  The devil more likely spends more of his time trying to hijack ministers with his ideas and/or anything other than the straight and narrow on the Gospel that Jesus Christ rules the nations as their governor, and that we're obligated to repent of our former lives, embrace His Lordship and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

Hell isn't the Biblical motivation for preaching to various cult groups.  Jesus said to go into all of the world and preach the extravagently good news (evangelion in the Greek, if I remember right), so it's more of an obedience issue to Him to tell people the good news rather than a fear that the work of the Cross won't get applied to their lives either here or in the fullness of time.  President Bush preached the limited gospel about U.S. citizens that paid their taxes getting these rebate checks this year that were meant to stimulate the economy.  One could argue, along the lines of your question, "why bring it up if all tax payers that made over $3,000 last year were going to get one anyway?"  From his perspective, it was to embolden people's spending.  From Christ's perspective, telling us that in the end there can be only one body, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all is so that we'll be emboldened to spend all of our energies for Him because in the end "IT IS FINISHED!"

You can post additional questions to this thread or start additional threads as you deem appropriate.

QuoteWhy, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

First Lucifer doesn't exist. That is a myth.

Blessings to you waitin'.  Sounds like Dad's dealing with you well and that you're a devout believer.  I do hear you about "it keeps coming back".  There was a time I had similar thoughts, but tell me, once God's shown you something so important, it's pretty hard if not impossible to ignore it, isn't it?  I've thought along the lines of "I can never go back to seeing things like before, because it's so real and so there in scripture...how would I ignore or deny all those scriptures God has now allowed me to see wrt the reconciliation of all things, God's working through the ages, etc.  They are there...I can no longer explain them away.  They are the proverbial "elephant in the room".

Also, a simple response I have to the second part is, it's just God's will, He wants people to know about His provision so people will believe and be saved, in this lifetime.  I believe He wants to walk and talk with those personally to whom He individually calls...He's calling some now for the purpose of using us in the restoration...the creation groans for the unveiling of those sons..."and how can they believe unless" someone tell them?  Paul told us to tell it..."Jesus, savior of all men..charge these things and teach" (I Tim 4:10-11)...God's blessing, James.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 24, 2008, 06:11:51 AM
Why, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

And if all is okay, is there really any reason to preach to cult groups like the Mormons? Why should I bother? What good will it do?

I know that some people have differences of opinion on the translation and interpretation of Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, but with regards to your question, I'll use the language of Jesus:

The thief cometh not but for to kill, steal, and to destroy.  I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly. John 10:10

In fairness, some Universalists may interpret the thief in this passage to simply be the Pharisees that Jesus was in constant combat with, but unless there's something intriguing in the Greek about kill, steal, and to destroy -- most religious people aren't having that as their core motive, even if that's where their traditions wind up leading.  Our adversary goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour simply because he's not yet seen life.  The wrath of God still abides on him.  He'll not see life until the close of the reign of Jesus Christ in 1Corinthians 15:28 when He causes all that are mortal to put on immortality and all that are corruptible to put on incorruption and to shout the praises of the redeemed in Revelation 5:13.  Your question could be reworded to ask why the devil tempted Jesus during His 40 day fast if Jesus was going to go to the Cross and win everything anyway?  Why oppose the plan of God if all was His anyway, in the fullness of time??  It had nothing to do with the plan of God, but the simplicity that God doesn't cast His pearls before swine and it's not time for our adversary the devil to know of His plan to gather together into one all things in Christ of those things in the heavens (where the conflict with Satan is) and of those things in the earth (where the conflict with one another and the flesh is), per Ephesians 1:8-10, Philippians 3:21, and Colossians 1:15-20.

Jesus Christ still demands our repentance and our embracing of His way above all others, and that we love our neighbor as ourselves while knowing and making known that no man comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ.  Hell is irrelevant to those commandments, whether Hell is temporary or nonexistent altogether.  Obedience is for obedience's sake and for the sake of relationship.  We're His!  We don't belong to sin or to the devil.  Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God Who HAS TAKEN AWAY the sin of the world.  The 99 simple aren't enough for Him.  Isn't that news worth sharing????

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I sincerely hope that neither of my answers came across as pouncing, because that's not where I was coming from.  I wasn't threatened by either of your honest questions.  Just sometimes like a race horse I hit the gate running when I hear the shot fired about something.  Perhaps this would answer a subsequent question about "what's the motivation?" if there's not an eternal Hell or an eternal Lake of fire.  He's a wonderful Saviour!!  Do you know the words to the classic song "The Love of God"?  Do you also happen to know the words -- all of the words/verses -- of "Joy to the World"?  Between those two songs you've got me figured out.  A little of Andrea Crouch's "The Blood will never lose it's power" will round out the top three for understanding my personal theology :cloud9: :HeartThrob:

If you're honestly unsure of the theology or how to present it, if you happen to know those three songs that I've just mentioned -- do you not find enough within those three songs to bring you or anyone else to their knees for a thousand years without the threats of the fire breathing dragon of the so-called orthodox view of the perpetual barbecue??  Does your spirit not soar with shouts of joy over the song "Ancient of Days"?  Between those 4 songs, that's generally all that any of us around here have ever been contending for.  Again, with the song "Ancient of Days," do you need the boiling caldron from Carman's music video "Witch's Invitation" to make Jesus Christ praiseworthy?  I'm really not being facetious.  Get a copy of the songs "The Love of God," "Joy to the World" (the complete version and not the grocery store version), "The Blood Will Never Lose It's Power," and "Ancient of Days" and play them over and over and over again to yourself and tell me if the atmosphere doesn't go to a higher level than the preaching under the other paradigm.  Let the Holy Spirit be your instructor on this, even if you feel like you've got too many questions about this to feel comfortable with this.  Play those songs over and over again and fast a couple of days while you're waiting before the Lord with those songs and see if the anointing is richer than it is when you're hearing it thrown out there that:

"In the end He's only as faithful as you were."

"He's there for people every time but the last time."

Play those songs [again and again] and see if the Christ within you doesn't just about ascend to the Father and take you with Him in absolute worship before the Father about absolutely all of the promises of both destruction and restoration having to be fulfilled.  The Holy Spirit is your teacher, and not us, though we love you with all of our hearts :HeartThrob: :cloud9:

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 :goodpost:.  Great example regarding those 4 songs.

Quote from: SOtW on June 24, 2008, 07:10:46 AM

QuoteWhy, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

First Lucifer doesn't exist. That is a myth.

:iagree: :goodpost:

Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2008, 08:35:21 AM
:goodpost:.  Great example regarding those 4 songs.

A lot of times our music CDs know more than our Bible schools.  I don't know of a single Christian that'll boycott those songs.  Isn't that amazing?

Though many will fear that we're wrong, no Christian in touch with the anointing within them can ever bring themselves to fast, pray, and really intercede against the Universal Restoration.  That should tell you something.

As I said on another thread, another good test is for any Christian to get a copy of The Passion of the Christ and watch it.  And when He's His Bloodiest, pause the DVD and say to His face "You know, this won't have mattered in the end for countless numbers of people!"  I can't perceive of a single Christian that's not backslidden being able to sincerely do that without their knees knocking at the unholy audacity of such an assertion being made right into the Bloody face of the Holy One.

There are so many things like this that the anointing within us can resolve in a matter of hours that it may take us another 5 years of diligent study to be totally comfortable with that that's what the Bible's been saying all along.  But the message of the Universal Restoration will stand any degree of Biblical scrutiny, if you'll allow for the translational issues to resolve the apparent difficulties -- while realizing that most of the promises of the Universal Restoration don't need any translational help.  But they're on much surer ground in both the Hebrew and Greek and in many of our English translations than the duration of punishments.  Someone can only argue the free will argument for just so long before they corner themselves with a hyper-Calvinistic double-election, because it would boil down to it being that way because God wanted it to be that way.  One can argue about a sinner's hardness all day long, but the only issues are the wisdom, power, promises, and provisions of God and whether or not in the end His Word is established in both heaven and earth, or if people can change the reality of the Word of God and His destiny at their discretion.  It all comes down to Him 'cause none of us have a lick of sense.  None of us can come out of the rain on our own, or know the difference between our right hand and our left, as He told Jonah.  I'm not entirely sold on total depravity, but whether you argue for that or not, you're still dealing with the total inadequacy of any of us being able to save ourselves, to keep the creeds in our own power, or to stay willing/obedient for our entire life times without His intervention.

What do any of us have that we didn't receive?  And if we received it, how do any of us boast as if we had not received it?  My first three years in this message I saw some gray area to it, from 2001 to 2004.  But there really isn't.  Things are just getting so clear to me now, and I'm just so excited by even the possibility that someone else may be sincerely looking at this. :icon_king:

QuoteAnd if all is okay, is there really any reason to preach to cult groups like the Mormons? Why should I bother? What good will it do?

The point is that we love people and don't want to see them suffer any longer.  Mormons, along with many religious organizations are currantly in bondage.  Our desire is to introduce each to the Holy Spririt, and He will lead them out into His marvalous kingdom.  When the dead see the Life in you, they will be drawn to it. 

QuoteWhy, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

Hang around these parts a while...catch up on some threads which discuss Lucifer, Hell and punishment.....theres some here who can sure point you in the right direction.... these such terms JUST may hold quite a different understanding  to what you MAY have been taught..just give it time..people want Black and white answers..its just our way ,But alas these things take time to come together...just be patient some... :icon_flower:
Good to have you here
Blessings

Thank you all for the answers. Some things to chew on before I pose any further questions. I do completely disagree with the idea that Lucifer is not real though.

I will consider these other statements though and then post again. Thanks for the time taken to give an answer.

I MAY BE MISTAKEN, but I THINK what SOME mean when they say Lucifer isn't real/is a myth, etc., is NOT that we don't have an adversary, satan;  but that there's been a misunderstanding in orthodoxy about Lucifer having been created a "good" angel, fell from favor/rebelled, etc., and more so that satan was created by God, for God's purposes...that he is a tool in the hands of the Father that can only do what God allows and/or bids.  Maybe something to just look into a little further, not "throwing out the baby with the bathwater".  God's blessing, James.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 25, 2008, 04:34:33 AM
Thank you all for the answers. Some things to chew on before I pose any further questions. I do completely disagree with the idea that Lucifer is not real though.

I will consider these other statements though and then post again. Thanks for the time taken to give an answer.

Nobody here disagrees that the Satan is real, or that devil roams around looking for whom he can devour. As Jabcat said, maybe you should look into it a little further, not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Jumping to conclusions will not help you in your quest for answers.

Let me tell you who Lucifer is.

Lucifer is a roman god of beauty and light, also known as the morning star, who fell from his starry position in the sky as lead to Eros, the Sun god. He thought he was the brightest of all gods and led a pride filled rebellion against Eros, but Eros condemned  Lucifer to the depths of the earth along with his followers and replaced him with Venus.

Lucifer is not found in Scripture at all, it is a purposeful mistranslation made in the fourth century A.D., when Jerome was translating the bible into the Roman language of Latin. He is also the first to associate Lucifer and the serpent in the garden as one and the same. Prior to this, this understanding of the devil, was not in the minds of any Christian.

Roman Christianity is a combination of Christianizing and paganism. They had a habit of instead of rejecting myths, absorbing them in and saying they were 'Christian' in origin. The Lucifer myth is one of those Christianization moments of Roman Christianity.

Craig

You still completely disagree with the idea that Lucifer is not real and believe in fallen angels and a God's kingdom divided against itself?

I think I am done asking questions. I thank all the thoughtful responses, except for sotw. He/she comes out with a

satan isn't real, he is a myth

and thinks this is somehow a helpful response. Sorry, but again, I don't buy that. And then the rude, condescending manner of his last post has pretty much cinched it for me.

Thanks anyway for the time. I think I will check out though. I don't feel like being condescended when posting questions.

Blessings to all.

Hello waitin...I guess I'd ask you to hang in here and keep running things out for discussion, and I'd ask all of us to be "harmless as doves" and to "be our brother's keepers" as we represent our Lord and give a hand to a brother...God's blessing, James.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 27, 2008, 07:45:24 AM
I think I am done asking questions. I thank all the thoughtful responses, except for sotw. He/she comes out with a
satan isn't real, he is a myth

and thinks this is somehow a helpful response. Sorry, but again, I don't buy that. And then the rude, condescending manner of his last post has pretty much cinched it for me.

Thanks anyway for the time. I think I will check out though. I don't feel like being condescended when posting questions.

Blessings to all.

I am sorry if you felt that way. That was never the intent. There was no condescending attitude or manner in which my replies were directed. If you still feel this way, you need to take it up with the Lord.

So let me try this again, not for your sake any longer, but by for those who you have confused by implying that I said "Satan is a myth and not real".

Let me rephrase. Satan is real, he is not a myth. Lucifer is not real, he is a myth. Make sure to get this straight. Lucifer is not the name of Satan; nor is Satan the name for Lucifer. One is real, the other is a lie. This lie was made up by Satan, who tempted a jealous man looking to discredit his enemy and at the same time put confusion into Christianity to hide the truth from our eyes.

Who is Satan? Jesus said that a kingdom divided will not stand therefore God's kingdom is not divided against itself. Since God's  Kingdom cannot be divided, Satan, therefore is not nor was not an angel of God, nor he ever was and he will never will be. Although he had access to heaven to bring accusation towards God's children, his origin is from the earth and he was never part of God's kingdom in the first place. He was created in the garden of Eden, and has the names: Serpent (of old), Satan, devil, dragon, etc. a liar and murderer from the beginning but he was never Lucifer.

The name Lucifer was inserted in the 4th Century AD, by Jerome. It is the only true blatant pieces of mistranslation, purposely done by Jerome in order to taint and humiliate a Bishop of Cagliari, Lucifer Calaritanus, who was in a heated doctrinal dispute with Jerome at the time and was gaining many followers who named themselves after the bishop, the Luciferians.

REFERENCES
1 http://www.unrv.com/culture/minor-roman-god-list.php (retrieved 03/03/08); http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lucifer_2.html (retrieved 03/03/08)
2 Hamilton, Edith. Mythology. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1942.
3 http://www.castleofspirits.com/origindevils.html (retrieved 03/03/08)
4 Daniel 2:36-38, Ezekiel 26:7 KJV
5 Ezra 7:12 KJV
6 1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14, 19:16 KJV
7 http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=612&letter=L&search=Lucifer (retrieved 03/03/08)

QuoteWhy, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

Why would the guilty want to see the innocent suffer?  To boost oneself;  the pride of life.

Many guilty cause hell for innocents right now without the motivation of an eternal torture chamber.

Quote from: Sarah on June 27, 2008, 05:15:58 PM
Many guilty cause hell for innocents right now without the motivation of an eternal torture chamber.

Somewhere people got the idea that in Hell, Satan is God's dungeon master set up to torture those who sin. They watch too many movies, seeing that Satan is competing with God for the souls of mankind.

Quote from: SOtW on June 27, 2008, 10:40:02 AM



Who is Satan? Jesus said that a kingdom divided will not stand therefore God's kingdom is not divided against itself. Since God's  Kingdom cannot be divided, Satan, therefore is not nor was not an angel of God, nor he ever was and he will never will be. Although he had access to heaven to bring accusation towards God's children, his origin is from the earth and he was never part of God's kingdom in the first place. He was created in the garden of Eden

Seeing as you call yourself a student of the Word, I would have to ask what verse this comes from. You have stated that Satan was created in the garden, but this is not something you received from the Bible. There is much in the Bible to point ol' Satan to being a cherub who fell.

I can look at a lot of things to see where there is merit. Being a Berean is great. But I will not take teachings about God that don't come from the Bible. It is my litmus test and all things must be filtered through it. What you have claimed here does not pass that test.

Thanks for "waitin'" around some more :Sparkletooth:.  If the satan/lucifer thing is vital, great...if not and there are more questions wrt UR, shoot...we're listening and will try to help.  God's blessing, James.

Hi waitonthelamb,

Let me ask you a question.


If all are not saved (through Gods plan, process, means and timing) then how is Gods love greater than mans?

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 24, 2008, 06:11:51 AM

Why, if all will be saved, does Lucifer bother with temptation and trying to draw people away from God? What would be the purpose, if they are not going to be punished in hell?

Well, from my studies,  I will just use Satan as who we are talking about since Lucifer is not the name of Satan in the bible.

I think one misunderstanding of universal salvation is that we will not at some point be judged.  I also realize that there are various opinions as to when and how that judgment takes place. My aim is not to spur a debate on that specifically in this thread, but everyone indeed will be judged even if everyone eventually ends up back to God.

The second misunderstanding is the belief that Satan acts upon his own free will.  I can see how that would cause confusion.  After all if Satan knows his efforts will be in vain, then indeed why would he continue? 

The scriptures gives us Satans purpose, and God intended for this to be. 
Lk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:

And also we have scriptural evidence in Job that proved Satan can do no more than God has allowed him to do.   

Jb 1:12 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand, but you must not put forth your hand upon himself. Then Satan went forth from Yahweh's presence.

Quote
And if all is okay, is there really any reason to preach to cult groups like the Mormons? Why should I bother? What good will it do?

God is a God of process.  The answer to the why is also in scripture.

1C 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.



It really is as simple as thats how God planned for things to be done.

So, another question that may be asked.  Why would you not want to tell someone why you love God??

Many people who come to UR were hellfire believers first,  it was through the foolishness of preaching.

QuoteSomewhere people got the idea that in Hell, Satan is God's dungeon master set up to torture those who sin. They watch too many movies, seeing that Satan is competing with God for the souls of mankind.

I don't know that it has to do with movies so much as doctine.  Satan is seen as a fellow who knows he's doomed and so he is desparately trying to drag as many with him as he can.  I'm not sure where this idea comes from, but I remember believing that Satan was a dungeon-master as you said, but at the end he himself would be tortured too, although I'm not sure who would be doing the torturing, demons....but then they would have to be tortured too.  Maybe they take turns.  I guess I didn't think it through.

Although you have those who just believe that the torture is eternal separation from God and the flames are inward torment....I believed that for awhile in college and thought I was advanced.  Ha!  Ha!  In that case I suppose Satan would just be a fellow who espouses to the idea that misery loves company.

It's funny, but I haven't considered Satan in this role in awhile, and if you think about it long enough it really poses some interesting conflicts.  I challenge you to do this waitinonthelamb.  Just sit back and contemplate these passages and be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  When you are ready you may discover that mainstream Christianity may have interpretted Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 through pagan eyes. 

Regardless, universal reconciliation is not dependent on this.  You just then have to ask yourself concerning a divided kingdom and your stability when you are perfected.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 28, 2008, 02:29:19 AM

Quote from: SOtW on June 27, 2008, 10:40:02 AM
Who is Satan? Jesus said that a kingdom divided will not stand therefore God's kingdom is not divided against itself. Since God's  Kingdom cannot be divided, Satan, therefore is not nor was not an angel of God, nor he ever was and he will never will be. Although he had access to heaven to bring accusation towards God's children, his origin is from the earth and he was never part of God's kingdom in the first place. He was created in the garden of Eden

Seeing as you call yourself a student of the Word, I would have to ask what verse this comes from. You have stated that Satan was created in the garden, but this is not something you received from the Bible. There is much in the Bible to point ol' Satan to being a cherub who fell.

The onus is on you, to prove that there is anything in the Bible to point to ol' Satan to being a cherub who fell. I guarantee you cannot find one single Scripture to make that provable. The answer is to your question, in which you assume too much the answer was not something received from the bible, is very very very much obvious in Scripture.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more 'aruwm' [Hebrew word to mean: "crafty, deceitful, sly"] than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

www.dictionary.com defines crafty as:
skillful in underhand or evil schemes; cunning; deceitful; sly.

Scripture says that the serpent was the most skillful in evil than any beast God had made... interesting eh? Satan did not create himself in a rebellion, he was not an angel in heaven who lost favor with God. He was and is and always has been a serpent skillful in evil, in which God had made. Find a place in Scripture where Satan is called anything more than a dragon, serpent, the devil? Find a place in Scripture where Satan was an angel, cherub, or anything other than what Scripture says God made him to be. You won't.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And it is no wonder, for [even] Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light; so it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [But] their end will correspond with their deeds.

What does it mean that their end will correspond with the deeds? It means, you should know at tree by the fruit it bears.

Matthew 12:33-34
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You children [metaphorical: products of the teachings] of the serpent, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

Satan was never a good tree, the serpent was never good, he was created skillful in evil from the beginning.

John 8:43-47
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. And because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

You have much study ahead of you waitingonthelamb.

QuoteI can look at a lot of things to see where there is merit. Being a Berean is great. But I will not take teachings about God that don't come from the Bible. It is my litmus test and all things must be filtered through it. What you have claimed here does not pass that test.

I claim nothing, all my teachings come from the bible. In fact, I say this with all humility, you will find few more versed in Scripture than I. I was called into a responsibility as a young child, by Jesus Christ, to be a good student of the Word, and a good steward of the Word. The answer that fails your own litmus test, is the doctrine of devils previously being angels of God, or that Satan was a cherub. You will find none of those teaching in the Bible, you will only find them in vain imaginations of the mind men who are not versed in the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 2:25-26
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Step up to the challenge, you have made claims which do not hold to your own litmus test, and made accusations which are unfounded. You have much to atone for as a result.

Isaiah 14

And on that note, sotw, I am checking out. Your arrogant manner of thinking you have it all worked out has officially turned me off. Your condescending attitude of superiority makes my skin crawl. Every other person in here came in with thought out, kind statements of which I truly appreciate, and which shines the One they profess and makes me proud to have them as brothers and sisters in the Lord. You come in with your holier then thou, I know more then you garbage and I find that repugnant.  You just keep thinking so highly of yourself.  If UR is what you put out there, I want nothing to do with it and I am sure there will be more that you push away.

I will seek God through God.

Thank you to all who posted besides sotw. I am not going away completely. I will peruse the site and do some investigating. I just don't want to put out my questions to be trampled with condescension.

See ya.

    Waitingonthelamb,    I think your allowing your self to be offended way too easily.  And that is causing you to be defensive and perhaps judgmental towards  SOtW.  Do you know SOtW, or what is really in his heart?  I think you are mistaking his boldness in stating his positions as being negative and that is not true.  Its actually a good thing.
We all have a "coat of many colors" and a light which we are to let shine. Lets not be offended at each other when we do it. And are simply trying to be the best we can be for God. 

There is no arrogant manner in which I present anything to you waitingonthelamb, it is confidence is not arrogance since I know what I am talking about. I feel you are too sensitive, and do not know how to react to someone who is confident in their answers.

Are you not the person who has some questions? So if you ask questions, would you not expect someone has the answers to those questions? There is no condescending manner in which I present these answers, nor is it arrogant of me to know the answers to these questions and present them.

Once again, not for your benefit any longer, but for the benefit of others who might be confused by your answer, I will answer the rebuttal of 'Isaiah 14'.

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Isaiah 14 says nothing of Satan. The word Lucifer, is a Latin word inserted by Jerome in the 4th Century, it has no purpose being in Scripture. It is a purposeful mistranslation and historically proved and documented that it is an error in translation from Hebrew to Latin, and the word remained from Latin to English.

So this is what the erroneous KJV says,

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here is what the truthful Hebrew says,

[05307]   naphal   
[08064]   shamayim   
[01966]     heylel   
[01121]     ben   
[07837]     shachar
[03213]     yalal   
[01438]     gada`   
[0776]     'erets   
[02522]     chalash
[01471]     gowy

Notice carefully that there is nowhere the Latin word 'Lucifer' is written in Hebrew. First, there is no Scriptural source which defines Lucifer as Satan. Second, the it is the Hebrew word, Heylel, which was the literal name of Venus; and, Shahar, which just means "Star of the Morning" or sometimes translated, "Son of the Morning'.

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

So who is this 'morning star, son of the dawn'?

The title was in reference to Babylonian Kings and titles they used to claim their divine right to rule. Artifacts such as the Cyrus Cylinder, confirmed such assertions were made by kings of the ancient world. Babylonian Kings such as King Nebuchadnezzar, who according to Babylonian culture, was either worshiped as a God, or an agent or son of God and very common title which they bestowed upon themselves. According to Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar was given all authority and dominion over mankind, beasts of the field and birds of the air, and where they live. God made him ruler over them all with the title of King of Kings (Daniel 2:36-38); a title also reserved for Persian King, Artaxerxes (Ezekiel 26:7); and in Christianity to Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14, 19:16). This tells us, the man who has dominion over the beasts of the field, birds of the air, and over mankind, indeed had his power based in heaven and were called by the title, Light Bringer, Morning Star, Son of the Morning, etc.. To lose such authority would have him fall from heaven and cast to earth. Jesus Christ claims this title and confirms this title
(1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14, 19:16) in presently.

So who was the Morning Star being described in Isaiah 14?

Isaiah 14:3-4
On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended!

The king of Babylon is not a secret codeword to mean Satan. The king of Babylon is a secret codeword to mean king of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:9-20
The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones—all those who were kings over the nations.

They will all respond, they will say to you [king of Babylon], "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us. All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit."

Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"

All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked    will never be mentioned again."

This prophesy is speaking against the king of Babylon, a man once called the Son of the Morning, who would lose everything and his kingdom by defeat by a union of kings called the Medo-Persian Empire. When the Medo-Persians defeated Babylon, they released Israel from their suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage under Babylon. The name of the King of Babylon, that this proverb was against? King Nabonidus, also known to the book of Daniel as King Nebuchadnezzar (not to be confused with Nebuchadnezzar II), just as Isaiah 14 said would happen.

Isaiah 14 does not share, or convey in it's message, the story of Lucifer the 'fallen angel'. This myth is found nowhere in Scripture. It always amazes me though, how people defend this myth without knowledge.

Waitingonthelamb,

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I know it isn't politically correct to say you are knowledgable or have the answers, but sometimes you have to search it out to see if in fact it is true.  When I first started posting, I at first took offense to the manner at which Sotw challenged me on an issue and his confidence in his knowledge and quickness to point out others errors.  I decided not allow my perception of him hinder my learning from him.  Look past the way he presents and search out what he presents.  You only cheat yourself when you refuse the food because of the plate it comes on.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 29, 2008, 04:56:57 PM
If UR is what you put out there, I want nothing to do with it and I am sure there will be more that you push away.

Please don't do this.  This is what nonbelievers do because of the harsh manners of many evangelical Christians.  Don't be like them.  Doing this would be saying, "I won't believe this doctrine because I don't like you."

Take Sarah and fullarmor2's advice.

Quote from: Our Wings are Burning on June 30, 2008, 07:22:53 AM

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 29, 2008, 04:56:57 PM
If UR is what you put out there, I want nothing to do with it and I am sure there will be more that you push away.

Please don't do this.  This is what nonbelievers do because of the harsh manners of many evangelical Christians.  Don't be like them.  Doing this would be saying, "I won't believe this doctrine because I don't like you."

Take Sarah and fullarmor2's advice.

I was not going to respond any further on the board, and in fact, I will be a silent person around here. But rest assured I am not done investigating this. I just don't want to ask anything further. I ask about Lucifer and get a pat "lucifer is a myth" answer. That is not helpful.

Regardless of what came thereafter, I will still look into this. I am not convinced of anything yet. I am disturbed by the outcome of some of this UR thing, in that it ends up with people forgoing attendance in a local congregation, or congregating with some of the liberal Uni churches instead.

Anyhoo, I will look further into it. I won't let sotw stop that. I follow Christ, not him.

God's richest to you...

Can I share a little testimony about me, as a UR believer wotl?  All because of and by the grace of God...everything I am is because He gives me my very life and breath, in fact, in Him I "live and move and have my being".

I....
Believe in God's power and plan to reconcile all to Himself (Collosians 1:20>)
Believe in Jesus, the divine Son of God, whose blood saves us, cleanses us, and that His death and resurrection provided for His drawing (Gr. helkou, drag)ing not some, but all men to Himself!  Hallelujah!
Believe we shouldn't divide from other believers, but that buildings are not the "church".  That the body of Jesus is the ecclesia ("church"), and we live Him and share Him wherever we are.  That wherever 2 or 3 gather in His name He is there...that we are to meet with other believers, but that can be a home just as well or maybe better in some cases than a building with a steeple.
That much of what orthodoxy believes and teaches is missing much of the truth.  Not all, just a lot of it.
That we are not all saved yet as some teach, but that God is in the process of dragging some now, but will be Lord of all later;  when every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus as Lord...confess means things like "joyfully acknowledge, give thanks"...and scripture says we can only do that IN the Holy Spirit (not by, as the KJV says).  Paul said this would occur in this order;  "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming....The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  ...  then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:23-28).
Believe differently than some UR'ers, that the logos and rhema (God's written, revealed, spoken words and thoughts) are God's Word...that Jesus is also the Word of God, but that His manifesting the Word in flesh did not negate the logos/rhema from also continuing to be God's Word.
Believe bible mistranslations have contributed to error in doctrine, but that was also part of God's plan, as He reveals what and when He chooses.  He veiled Israel unto this day...He placed all in disobedience so He could show mercy to all (Romans 11:32).

So, I personally am a Bible-believing, non-orthodox believer in Jesus.  I believe the Bible, when accurately translated and Spirit revealed does teach many things that are different than mainstream Christianity.  To me, being a follower of Jesus, including the true Good News of "Jesus, Savior of all men" is Christ-centered, scripture-based, non-traditions of men, Son-set free, God's-got-a-bigger-plan salvation.

Hope this helps.  I also posted a "what and why I believe" in a thread titled "Taking The Plunge--Sharing UR With The Pastor".  If you don't find it there feel free to PM me and I'll send it to you.

God's blessing, James.

QuoteI ask about Lucifer and get a pat "lucifer is a myth" answer.

I actually did explain it, but instead of asking questions about it you went about defending that it wasn't a myth. When I told you Lucifer is a myth, you were the one with questions, why then did you start defending Lucifer? Now, I did explain from Scripture where Satan came from and shown you the Lucifer myth is not found in Scripture, passing your litmus test. Still, you pass it off with another Ad Hominem Fallacy instead of the knowledge of truth, unfortunately continuing to fail your own test.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on June 29, 2008, 04:56:57 PM
I am disturbed by the outcome of some of this UR thing, in that it ends up with people forgoing attendance in a local congregation, or congregating with some of the liberal Uni churches instead.

Anyhoo, I will look further into it. I won't let sotw stop that. I follow Christ, not him.

God's richest to you...

I understand your concern here WOTL.

If it is of any use I will tell you why I left church.   There is much more than just stating God saves all and walking out of a congregation.

Leaving organized religion, was one of the hardest things I have ever done.  But it was also probably one of the most thought out things I have ever done as well.

But I have not left church, for the church of Christ does not know of walls, pews and such.  I regularly fellowship with people in the manner of sharing what I believe.  I fellowship when I am helping someone God has placed in my path.

What I left was a social environment that I had become dependant upon. Few people will admit or even see that they are in bondage to organized religion.

I left routines and procedures that was choking the life out of me. They were said to give hope to people in need when all they do is enable people to be dependant upon a church organization above finding freedom in the Gospel.

I left an entity that gives the power of our destiny to man, no different than the self help section does at Barnes and Nobel.

I left the teaching of a God that contradicts scripture by saying eventually someone will be in hell forever because God gave up on them.   If Gods love never fails, then indeed that is a lie if anyone cannot ever be with God at some point.

It took me three years to actually get the courage to walk out in obedience to God.   It doesn't matter who is disturbed, or who believes that God would call someone out of organized religion. 


Do you believe that God has the power to cause everyone to accept Christ eventually?

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!




Lucifer

H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.


H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.



1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.




Main Entry: Lu·ci·fer
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'lü-s&-f&r
Etymology: Middle English, the morning star, a fallen rebel archangel, the Devil, from Old English, from Latin, the morning star, from lucifer light-bearing, from luc-, lux light + -fer -ferous -- more at LIGHT
1 -- used as a name of the devil
2 : the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 01, 2008, 07:57:20 PM
If it is of any use I will tell you why I left church.   There is much more than just stating God saves all and walking out of a congregation.

Leaving organized religion, was one of the hardest things I have ever done.  But it was also probably one of the most thought out things I have ever done as well.

But I have not left church, for the church of Christ does not know of walls, pews and such.  I regularly fellowship with people in the manner of sharing what I believe.  I fellowship when I am helping someone God has placed in my path.

What I left was a social environment that I had become dependant upon. Few people will admit or even see that they are in bondage to organized religion.

I left routines and procedures that was choking the life out of me. They were said to give hope to people in need when all they do is enable people to be dependant upon a church organization above finding freedom in the Gospel.

I left an entity that gives the power of our destiny to man, no different than the self help section does at Barnes and Nobel.

I left the teaching of a God that contradicts scripture by saying eventually someone will be in hell forever because God gave up on them.   If Gods love never fails, then indeed that is a lie if anyone cannot ever be with God at some point.

It took me three years to actually get the courage to walk out in obedience to God.   It doesn't matter who is disturbed, or who believes that God would call someone out of organized religion. 

Very nice personal (and to the point) testimony Paul...  :goodpost:

Especially in the Blue above...

GOD so LOVED the WORLD... (John 3:16-17) that LOVE is UNCHANGING and ETERNAL... and the mission of CHRIST was to SEEK and to SAVE that which was LOST (Luke 19:10), ALL men are LOST, for ALL have SINNED and in need of a Savior...

For CHRIST to have accomplished His mission which was based upon GOD so LOVING the WORLD... He must needs SAVE IT ALL, for ALL of it is that which GOD LOVES...  :dontknow: 

ANY other result shows CHRIST as at least a partial failure... and GOD's LOVE goes ETERNALLY unfulfilled. 

Futhermore, His endeavor is shown to be less than ALL MIGHTY... therefore rendering GOD as "Some Mighty" and not ALMIGHTY.

willieH: Hi Molly...  :icon_jokercolor:

Me again!  :IloveU:  As I said before... when I observe you or anyone else, pose something which is not substanciated in the Word, and/or which overlooks what is plainly IN the WORD... I shall object to it...

No offense to YOU personally is intended in my objection...  :friendstu:

Here is that objection:

First... If I might, for those which would like to read a fine rebuttal to this thinking of "LUCIFER" = "satan"... here is a link to L. Ray Smith's observation of it:

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

YOU SAID:

Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2008, 10:07:07 PM
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Lucifer

H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.


Main Entry: Lu·ci·fer
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'lü-s&-f&r
Etymology: Middle English, the morning star, a fallen rebel archangel, the Devil, from Old English, from Latin, the morning star, from lucifer light-bearing, from luc-, lux light + -fer -ferous -- more at LIGHT
1 -- used as a name of the devil
2 : the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star

Again, you are seen using word definitions when they (hopefully) benefit your theological observations... however,

There are several problems with the ORTHODOX understanding of these passages which you [APPARENTLY] adopt in your theology Molly... (as you do not state your agreement with this belief [lucifer=satan] in your answer)

(1)  In no way does the above "word definition" prove "LUCIFER" to be "satan"... The appearance of this word in THIS passage is the ONLY occurence of the word "LUCIFER" in ENGLISH translations, ...and therefore, it cannot be cross-referenced... this "belief" that "lucifer" = "satan" is thereby reduced to being a RELIGIOUS ASSUMPTION... as it has NO "2nd witness" in the Bible...  :dontknow:

(2)  As Craig pointed out, the passages in Isaiah 14 in which the ENGLISH word LUCIFER, appears, ...are addressed to a MAN which was the King of Babylon... which is found eventually in a GRAVE (vs 11) which WORMS cover (no ANGELIC being goes to a "grave")... 

(The further display of hypocritical and RELIGIOUS translating is displayed by the variable translations of #H7585 -- SHEOL to be HELL in Vs 9 and then 2 verses later, GRAVE in Vs 11) :rolleye:

(3)  Also, this person is indentified in the CONTEXT:

...(a)  Verse 4 as the "King of Babylon", and then in
...(b)  Verse 12  as "Lucifer", and then in
...(c)  Verse 16 as a MAN...

Also, if indeed this passage is as you (apparently) view it to be... and an ANGELIC "being" is indeed, in a GRAVE, covered with WORMS... then how is that "being" present with us today?

Word definitions are good to use in the scrutiny of theological observances, but are still subject to be questioned, ...especially when they (as does the word "lucifer"), ...only appear ONCE in the WORD, and have no additional applications/substanciations with which to explore... and compare...

Just because a word is defined in Strongs, does not write that word IN STONE... if merely notes the definition given to it in ENGLISH, by those translation efforts...

A theological proposal must be firmly confirmed elsewhere by additional witnesses in Scripture, otherwise... it is shown standing alone, without verification.  :dontknow:

You are welcome to believe as you will...  :sigh:

Molly,

As I demonstrated before, the word "Lucifer" is name of the Morning Star, it is not the Name of Satan prior to falling to earth. It is LITERALLY the name of the planet 2nd from the Sun, also known as the Heylel in Hebrew,  Eosphorus in Greek and Lucifer in Latin, then later Venus in Latin as it remains today. Although Roman religion was used to name the lights in the skies, literally, the usage of Morning Star does not refer to the Roman myth, it refers literally to what we know today as the Morning Star, a light that precedes the Sun to announce a new day is coming, the 2nd planet from the Sun. The word 'Lucifer' is not found in the Hebrew translation, it is Heylel. Heylel has never been anything more than the 2nd planet from the son. There was no legend or myth surrounding it for the Hebrew people, other than it was the title the kings of ancient word called themselves. Artifacts from the time period, demonstrate this soundly.

Heylel actually means, "Mourning", it literally means to 'Grieve the end of the Day', which by Hebrew tradition, the day begins in evening and ends in day. The Morning Star was an announcement that the day is almost over. This helps people understand why Paul called Jesus the Morning Star in the letter to Timothy, and that everything ends in the Light of Day. Jesus is also quoted by John in Revelation as being the Morning Star, the star which is signifies both the Beginning and End (the Morning Star is also the Dawn Star, they are the same Star).

Instead of using the Hebrew word for the Morning Star, Heylel, Jerome used the word 'Lucifer'.  This was done in the 4th Century A.D. and gained acceptance by the Roman people who already believed and were taught the Roman religion where Lucifer, god of the morning, the Morning Star, challenged Apollos/Sol (the Sun God) to who is the most powerful. Lucifer led a rebellion against Apollos/Sol, but lost being cast down to prison on earth and replaced by Jupiter's daughters, Venus. Later, Augustine expounded on the invented doctrine and found new ways to incorporate, perhaps not consciously, the Roman myth into Christianity. Jerome also used it in reference to his political adversary, the Bishop of Cagliari, Lucifer Calaritanus. He then, for the first time in Christian doctrine and theology, said that it was the name of Satan prior to his fall from Light, a doctrine which had never been taught previously and applied it to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. He used it deceivingly, in order to discredit his political and theological adversary.

The question one must ask, is why did Jerome change one instance of 'Morning Star', and not all the instances of 'Morning Star' to the name, "Lucifer"?  Well history shows he in fact did. He also replaced other places he thought spoke of the 2nd Planet from the Sun with the name "Lucifer" as well.

Job 11:17
Life will be brighter than noonday,and darkness will become like Lucifer [morning].

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and Lucifer [the Morning Star] rises in your hearts.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and Lucifer [the Bright Morning Star]."

The Catholic Dictionary defines Luficer: The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

As the evidence piles up, even the Catholic church admits that it was an invention of Jerome, and not a Christian doctrine at all.  It is a tradition of Christianity that prevailed, but not correct. There are many 'Christian' traditions that prevailed, but have no truth in them at all. Personally, I am still astounded after all the facts are shared, that people still continue to believe other things.

Maybe just believing in Jesus Christ for salvation  is the only belief that'll really count in the end.
No one knows for sure what other people believe. Even what we ourselves believe can change, or we discover that we just don't know. It's like a river that brings in new things every day, and sends out old things too. I too am on a journey.

How many of us here have said recently, "Gee, I really don't have an answer to that." or "ya know, I've never understood that either."
For some strange reason, we (especially Americans) need to have all the explanations right at our fingertips. It's as if we need to have God and His plans all under our control (which they will never be).

Whether we have all our doctrinal ducks in a row or not probably isn't very important at all in the end. -And it's certainly not anything worth fighting with other people about.

I've watched born-again believers argue and condemn everyone around them because they had all the answers. (The day before, they were lost sinners on the verge of destruction. The next day, they were saved and had it all figured out! The problem was, the rest of the world wasn't as "enlightened" as they were!)
It's terrible, and a shame.

I, for one, have a lot to learn. Sometimes I'm appalled at how much I have to learn!

Love to all,
Brian