Hi everyone. I have spent the last few hours skimming a lot of topics on the board, searching for keywords so I can get quick answers to some of the many, many questions I still have. I have found answers to some of my questions, but there are other things I still struggle with. I have a feeling these questions aren't easily answered.
My mother is an ETer although she doesn't "preach" about it much. She is totally devoted to Christ and knows that he lives in her she depends on him for everything. She goes through life with no fear and loves loves loves the Lord. She's very excited about the coming kingdom and is doing all she can to prepare for it by studying the Word all the time.
My question regarding this is... even though she believes in hell, and she believes that every human being has the same opportunity of getting saved in this life (She uses Romans chapter 1 as proof that no one has any excuse) and it is our choice, and if we die.. TOO BAD.... is she still part of the "elect" (or bride, or church, whichever is the most proper term)? I'm sure most of you understand how one can believe Christ is the Savior of the world, but only for those who believe :wacko2: since most of us have been there done that. But it breaks my heart to think that just because she has this misunderstanding, she might miss out on the millennial kingdom. I don't feel comfortable presenting UR to her yet, and I may never feel comfortable doing it. It's like a neverending cycle!! Now I feel obligated to help HER and get her saved "the rest of the way" haha! Ugh. Is this making any sense? I want my mommy in the kingdom!! She wants to be there! But she believes in hell, so does that disqualify her? :sigh:
Okay next question.. What exactly does it mean to LIVE IN SIN? Does it mean to sin on purpose? Like when I overeat.. I know I'm doing it and I really don't care because it's fun :Sparkletooth: but that IS a sin, isn't it? What about when I get road rage. I know full well that I am not supposed to be angry, but I let the rage flow. So am I living in sin? OF course, I do worse things also, but those are sins and a sin is a sin. I believe in Grace and I believe Christ nailed the law to the cross... but if I continue to sin or LIVE IN SIN (according to a lot of teachers) then I am not really saved and I have UNBELIEF in Grace. Even URer Dean Hough said this. So what am I supposed to do? I can try to be unconscious of my sins, but doesn't that mean I gave myself a "license to sin"? That's a big no-no also. Help me :sigh:
Last question for now... why do men have nipples? Seriously, this is bothering me :mblush:
Hey Bea,
Can you really imagine God going against His own desire and not saving someone because they believed in 'hell'? If believing something wrong would disqualify us then we will all be unsaved.
I hear ya though for the most part. I tell God that I want to be good and happy and I want others good and happy and I want Him happy with me and all of us. This is my simplistic way of communing with God.
Now, I sin too, consciously sin. I tell God I don't really want to do this yet I do. I hear Him ask me why I do it then. I say pretty much what you said, I say I do it because it gives me comfort and pleasure. He asks me if this comfort and peace last. I say no but life just gets so hard and confusing and I just have not found the strength and peace in all the Bible reading and good fellowship and other good things I do (although they all certainly help and I'm not blaming them, I blame something of great lack within me, but there it is). He seems to say to me to just keep trying to seek Him with my whole being. I say OK.
So I hear ya Bea.
cp
I don't really know much about the millennial kingdom, as to be honest I tend not to think about it much, so I'll leave that question to someone more knowledgeable.
Regarding the topic of living in sin, I tend to liken sin to a drug addiction: it feels good at the time, but in the end it's really destroying us from the inside out and ultimately puts our happiness on a downward trend if we let it rage unchecked. God is like that friend who sees what our addiction is doing to us and wants us to stop, not for his sake, but because he knows how much happier we will be if we kick the habit. On the other hand, though, if someone is following the instructions we've been given by Jesus, but very grudgingly because they don't really want to, then that's no good at all - surely that person's heart is far from God even as he honors God with his lips.
The ultimate goal that I think we should all strive for is not so much the denial of one's urges, but rather the fundamental alignment of one's heart with God's, such that what one feels the urge to do is also what God wants that person to do. Anything else will fundamentally create a very unhealthy and unsustainable cognitive dissonance between what the person wants to do and what the person knows that they need to do.
As for why men have nipples, well... I think answering that would open a can of worms. :laughing7:
Quote from: Gab on November 16, 2009, 02:39:13 AM
I don't really know much about the millennial kingdom, as to be honest I tend not to think about it much, so I'll leave that question to someone more knowledgeable.
Regarding the topic of living in sin, I tend to liken sin to a drug addiction: it feels good at the time, but in the end it's really destroying us from the inside out and ultimately puts our happiness on a downward trend if we let it rage unchecked. God is like that friend who sees what our addiction is doing to us and wants us to stop, not for his sake, but because he knows how much happier we will be if we kick the habit. On the other hand, though, if someone is following the instructions we've been given by Jesus, but very grudgingly because they don't really want to, then that's no good at all - surely that person's heart is far from God even as he honors God with his lips.
The ultimate goal that I think we should all strive for is not so much the denial of one's urges, but rather the fundamental alignment of one's heart with God's, such that what one feels the urge to do is also what God wants that person to do. Anything else will fundamentally create a very unhealthy and unsustainable cognitive dissonance between what the person wants to do and what the person knows that they need to do.
Beautifully said.
Quote from: Gab on November 16, 2009, 02:39:13 AM
The ultimate goal that I think we should all strive for is not so much the denial of one's urges, but rather the fundamental alignment of one's heart with God's, such that what one feels the urge to do is also what God wants that person to do. Anything else will fundamentally create a very unhealthy and unsustainable cognitive dissonance between what the person wants to do and what the person knows that they need to do.
I also like what you wrote, gab.
I like the part where you said we should strive for.............. I think that's it. It is not so much in the attaining, although we seem to be promised this attainment, but it is in the striving, the trying, that the attainment comes.
My concern is from where does the desire and strength come from to want to strive for such good things as you wrote of. I believe they come from God.
cp
I have typed out about 5 different long replies, but as I'm typing and thinking, I start changing my mind haha.
I tend to jump to negative conclusions when it comes to what is expected of me. I think I need to think about this longer before I make a real reply :)
Thanks :icon_flower:
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 01:06:51 AM
why do men have nipples? Seriously, this is bothering me :mblush:
During development, the embryo follows the female model or template for approximately six weeks until the male chromosome kicks in, that is Y.
Perhaps, showing that God made the physical women first? :mshock:
Quote from: claypot on November 16, 2009, 03:16:32 AM
My concern is from where does the desire and strength come from to want to strive for such good things as you wrote of. I believe they come from God.
cp
I agree cp. Please check your "Try Hard" thread. :thumbsup:
Quote from: peacemaker on November 16, 2009, 06:47:54 AM
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 01:06:51 AM
why do men have nipples? Seriously, this is bothering me :mblush:
During development, the embryo follows the female model or template for approximately six weeks until the male chromosome kicks in, that is Y.
Perhaps, showing that God made the physical women first? :mshock:
Hmmmm sounds good to me :happy3: :happy3: :happy3:
Good questions Bea.
I have 2 for you
- Being without excuse how does that prove eternal hell?
- If the elect are the brides of Christ, who are the guests at the wedding?
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 16, 2009, 07:52:17 AM
- Being without excuse how does that prove eternal hell?
I don't think it does. My point was that it proves to my mother that we all have the same chance before we die to either accept or reject Christ, which I disagree with and I think a lot of scripture and common sense disagrees with also :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 16, 2009, 07:52:17 AM
- If the elect are the brides of Christ, who are the guests at the wedding?
Forgive me, but I'm not sure what this question is supposed to mean :)
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 03:57:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 16, 2009, 07:52:17 AM
- Being without excuse how does that prove eternal hell?
I don't think it does. My point was that it proves to my mother that we all have the same chance before we die to either accept or reject Christ, which I disagree with and I think a lot of scripture and common sense disagrees with also :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 16, 2009, 07:52:17 AM
- If the elect are the brides of Christ, who are the guests at the wedding?
Forgive me, but I'm not sure what this question is supposed to mean :)
Forgive? What? Nothing to be forgiven. :winkgrin:
I think the whole NT is a giant wedding parable. Bride(believers). Groom(Jesus). Father(God). Bride price(Jesus life) etc. All according to Jewish wedding customs. Anther custom was that there are guests at the wedding. The groom bought wedding garments for all guests.
Revelation 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the
marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
B- This is just my own thinking, SIN is what YOU chose to call sin, OR i.e.
Sin is the RULES that you choose to follow to please God. When YOU fall short of your self proclaimed rules then you can do what ever recipe it takes to get forgiveness.
BUT , Sense JC rose from the dead, sin did not exist Period... in my op.
Once you are under Grace, there is NO law to follow to please God. Only self reinforced rules. Paul DID PREACH "HIS GOSPEL" FOR GENTILES. IMO
SORRY IF I AM CONFUSING , BUT THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT NOT MANY FOLLOW....
Furthermore, Paul marveled that the Galatians were "removed" or transferred to "a different gospel" from that which he had brought to them. And he also declared that it was "not another" gospel for them! Now the truth of this statement may be recognized for the reality of what it says when we remember that Christ affirmed that "the Scripture cannot be ( 'broken' ) annulled" (John 10:35). This reveals that Scripture MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS, and FOR WHOM IT IS SAID. Therefore, if a "gospel" which was divinely ordained for one people, is perverted to another, its promises simply cannot be fulfilled.
Consequently, it is "not another" gospel or "good news" for them. And those to whom it is being preached, becomes both disturbed and deceived. Now when this "different gospel" while true for the people for whom it was divinely ordained, was perversely forced upon the Galatians, the Uncircumcision, the "gentiles," its promises could not be fulfilled, therefore, their faith was misplaced and nullified! And on this account Paul doubly emphasized the "curse" or anathema upon the preachers, saying, "though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you ( Galatians, the Uncircumcision or "gentiles"), than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal 1:8-9;2:2,7). Now the reason for all this defense is as follows. Paul had gone into Galatia in accord with his divinely ordained commission, bringing the gospel which came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal. 1:11-12 ), for which he had been separated (Rom 1:1-5),and which he specifically designated "that gospel which I preach among the gentiles" (Gal 2:2), and "the gospel of the Uncircumcision" ( Gal 2:7) . Later, Christianized Jewish preachers visited the churches of Galatia and "removed" or transferred the believers from the grace of Christ in which they had been called to "a different Gospel" of faith and works , which was none other than "the gospel of the Circumcision" that was committed unto Peter for the Circumcision ( Gal 2:7-9 ) Consequently, they were urged to be "circumcised" ( Gal 5: 2-3; 6: 12-13 ), to "observe days, months, seasons and years" ( Gal 4:8-11 ), and to be "zealous for the law" and "live according to the customs of Moses" like as the Jewish believers were demanded by " the gospel of the Circumcision" Gal 3:1-9; 4:19-21; 6:12-15; Acts 21:19-21. Therefore, Paul was moved by "a revelation" to go up to Jerusalem and "communicate, " submit or make known to them—James, Peter and John, who are supposed to be pillars—"that gospel which he preached among the gentiles" ( Gal 2:1-10). At this meeting, those of repute—James, Peter and John—submitted nothing to Paul ! On the contrary, Titus, being a Greek believer through Paul's ministry, was not permitted to be circumcised, and Paul did not simulate or give place by subjection, not even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with us (Gal 2:1-5 ). Furthermore, at that meeting, it was clearly revealed that Paul had been entrusted with "the gospel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision." And also, "when James, Cephas ( Peter ) and John, who seemed to be pillars, learned of the grace that was given to Paul, they gave to him and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that they should go unto the "heathen" or nations, and they unto the circumcision" ( Gal 2:7-9 ). After this meeting, Paul was moved by the Spirit to write this epistle to the Galatians, that they might be delivered from this disturbance and bondage of the law to which they had been "removed" or transferred from the truth of the gospel of the grace of God, which he had brought them, with its freedom of Sonship through the hearing of faith apart from works of the law
Gal 3: 1-14. He also was quite vehement in his protest against the preacher, invoking the "curse" or anathema ( which was the ancient custom of devoting a person to an expiatory or atoning sacrifice to the gods in order to avert public calamity), upon any man, even himself or a messenger from heaven, who would bring "ANY OTHER GOSPEL TO THEM ( The Galatians, the Uncircumcision or "gentiles")THAN THAT WHICH HE, PAUL HAD PREACHED TO THEM !" What would Paul say to apostate Christendom if he were here today, when, conservatively speaking, seventy-five % of its teachings, beliefs, customs and practices are drawn from the Circumcision gospel and writings, thus "removing" or transferring believers from the grace of Christ, in which they are called, and consequently distorting the gospel of Christ.
God has clearly and definitely declared that Paul was His chosen vessel to bear His name to the "gentiles" or nations. He entrusted to him the specific gospel for the nations by a revelation of Jesus Christ ( Gal 1:12), namely, "the gospel of the Uncircumcision" (Gal 2:7 ). He was separated and commissioned the apostle, herald and teacher of the nations in knowledge and truth ( Rom 1: 1-5;11:13;15:15-18 ).
And he was also given the glorious revelations of Grace, Justification, Conciliation, Reconciliation, the "mystery" or secret ordained before the "world" or eons for our glory, and the administration of the secret, with the happy expectation and allotment of grace glorious among the celestials in the heavens for believing nations, (peoples).
Yet in spite of all these grand and transcendently glorious truths, of which the Circumcision apostles scarcely dreamed, to say nothing of preaching or teaching them, we find "theology" and the "religious teaching" of Christendom super-imposing the gospel of the Circumcision, concerning the earthly kingdom and its allotments of terrestrial glory (earth-base), upon these grand revelations for the heavens, revealed through Paul. Such ministry beclouds, bedims, and befogs the glorious truths of the spiritual blessings which God has so graciously provided and ordained for believers today, in this administration of His Grace ! And, how often we hear the confident, contented, complacent comment, "O we take Paul's writings together with all the other writings of the Bible! How little those who persist in such lawlessness and unbelief, realize that they are preaching and believing "a different gospel" than that which God had graciously ordained and revealed for them, and are consequently "removed" or Transferred from the Grace of Christ! And the sad and lamentable part of it all is, that those who receive and believe "another" or "different gospel" then that which God gave Paul for the Uncircumcision or "gentiles, " for this administration of grace, though it be in the Bible, are, nevertheless, misplacing and nullifying their faith, because the promises cannot be fulfilled to them ! They have been erroneously taught, deceived, lied to and removed from the grace of Christ! They have "fallen from grace" and "Christ profits them nothing," consequently, "they are debtors to do the WHOLE LAW" ( Gal. 5:2-6)!
Finally, God has already separated "the gospel of the Uncircumcision" for the "gentiles" or nations from " the gospel of the Circumcision" ( Gal 2: 1-9 ), and placed in it that which cannot be Mixed or Confused with the demands and promises of the " other gospels" of the Scriptures without "frustrating" or (Repudiating His Grace---deny the truth or validity of or/and refuse to accept or be associated with.) ( Gal 2:21) ! This joining together and mixing, misplacing and misapplying demands and promises which God has ordained for one people in another administration, (age ) with the peoples of this administration, (age ) of the secret and the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus today, distorts and perverts the Scriptures. Consequently, it draws down the " CURSE " or Anathema on the one thus preaching or teaching, even though he be an angel ( messenger ), from heaven! Therefore, we should give the most earnest consideration and obedient recognition to what God has written, that we may "correctly cut the word of truth" and thus present ourselves to Him qualified, unashamed, approved workers, and receive His blessed applause in that day ( 2 Tim. 2:15;--But a ( Blind man) cant see , to have shame.)-- 1 Cor. 4:1-5).www.tentmaker.org/store, The Gospel of OUR Salvation.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 16, 2009, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: bea on November 16, 2009, 03:57:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 16, 2009, 07:52:17 AM
- Being without excuse how does that prove eternal hell?
I don't think it does. My point was that it proves to my mother that we all have the same chance before we die to either accept or reject Christ, which I disagree with and I think a lot of scripture and common sense disagrees with also :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 16, 2009, 07:52:17 AM
- If the elect are the brides of Christ, who are the guests at the wedding?
Forgive me, but I'm not sure what this question is supposed to mean :)
Forgive? What? Nothing to be forgiven. :winkgrin:
I think the whole NT is a giant wedding parable. Bride(believers). Groom(Jesus). Father(God). Bride price(Jesus life) etc. All according to Jewish wedding customs. Anther custom was that there are guests at the wedding. The groom bought wedding garments for all guests.
Revelation 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
I'm not sure what to think of that. Are we to assume the guests at the supper are unbelievers? I can see how that might be somewhat encouraging, but they are still left out of the wedding, right? So I don't know. Bear with me, I'm still feeding on milk for the most part :)
Lee, thanks for that. It was a bit much for me to take in but I think I understand what you are saying. I was reading about the "circumcision vs uncircumcision" last night and get a little overwhelmed by it. I will work on it. Thanks!
I feel like I have the window blinds open, just not completely removed yet.. if that makes sense.
Bea, been there done that, most likely will be there again sometime.
Live' Learn, and Love...
Lee and whoever is concerned...
There is only one gospel period. To say there is one for the gentiles (faith without works that Paul preached) and there is another to the Jews (of grace and works comitted to Peter) is like looking at a page with your eyes crossed! It is a lie.
Galatians 3:11-14, YLT...
11 ...that in law no one is declared righteous with God, is evident, because `The righteous by faith shall live;'
12 and the law is not by faith, but--`The man who did them shall live in them.'
13 Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'
14 that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
There is only one gospel for everyone!!!
1 Corinthians 15:1-5, YLT....
1 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,
2 through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,
3 for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,
4 and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,
5 and that he appeared...
In a nutshell, that's it! The Gospel!! The only Gospel!!!
Acts 15:4-11, YLT...
4 And having come to Jerusalem, they were received by the assembly, and the apostles, and the elders, they declared also as many things as God did with them;
5 and there rose up certain of those of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying--`It behoveth to circumcise them, to command them also to keep the law of Moses.'
6 And there were gathered together the apostles and the elders, to see about this matter,
7 and there having been much disputing, Peter having risen up said unto them, `Men, brethren, ye know that from former days, God among us did make choice, through my mouth, for the nations to hear the word of the good news, and to believe;
8 and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us,
9 and did put no difference also between us and them, by the faith having purified their hearts;
10 now, therefore, why do ye tempt God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 but, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, even as also they.'
Notice verses 9 and 11 in Acts 15 (above.) What part of "NO DIFFERENCE" don't you understand?!
Romans 3:19-30, YLT...
19 And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;
20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--
26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.
27 Where then is the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith:
28 therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.
29 The God of Jews only is He, and not also of nations?
30 yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith.
Notice above that there is no difference, under law or without law all are sinners. Both circumcision and uncircumcision are justified through faith!!! What is so disgusting is the Jew vs. Gentiles doctrine pretending to racial prejudice with God! Abomination!!
Romans 10:11-13, YLT...
11 for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'
12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all those calling upon Him,
13 for every one--whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'
What part of "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW AND GREEK" don't you understand? One gospel and only one!
I personally believe that you have been given much light and understanding, and for you, you can follow the path you choose which may be perfect for you. Although I choose to understand the good news to whom it was written to mean that every book was addressed to a people or purpose address in the content of that book. As was when you mentions Romans, I believe that Paul was referring to a real life story to the past and present eon of believers and Jewish system at the time. And mostly why is that the only ONLY thing that will make this Gentile (me) a sinner is " If I have a system of Law that I once followed", not Baptist, Mormon, Catholic etc... (The bring my offering to a high priest once a year system) Jewish. If I had that system then I would be a sinner because it was imposable to follow. Because transgression of said laws makes me a breaker of the law-Sinner. I have never, and will never follow laws of any said group of man (Church) because if I do, and break that systems rules, then I become a breaker of that system's rules, I become a sinner of said Church, Man made.
As for Gospel-good news-, I will always preach 8 places in the KJV for example that gospel was used to mean different things(8 Gospels) . I will forever follow the understanding that "I" was never a sinner. Because ALL sin was done away the second you believe most of what you mentions in your last post. or 2000 years ago give or take.
Now If you want to use a referance as to where I am coming from, It is on the tentmaker's site for sale, The Gospel Of Our Salvation.
Hi Lee,
I agree with what you are saying about the distinctive message between circumcision and uncircumcision, Jew and Gentiles. I don't know if I can call it a different Gospel, just a progressive Gospel.
The Mystery was something that was revealed to Paul first, It had never been revealed before, but it EXISTED. Although it was hidden in God from before the foundation of the world. No one else knew about it until it was revealed to Paul. I think the Mystery was the knowledge of the salvation of all through Jesus Christ. Salvation had never been promised to the Gentiles through the Covenants unless they became Israelites. What Paul came to see through the Mystery was that, Gentiles would be saved also and they did not have to be connected with Israel. We Gentiles are saved through Jesus Christ and we are of the family of God now, not the family of Israel. We don't have to become Israelites to be saved. This is the difference.
I believe there are many gospels but only one Gospel concerning salvation. It has grown kind of like a child. First it crawls, then it walks, then it runs. The knowledge of the salvation of all started out with the Old Covenant, then progressed to the New Covenant, finally the Mystery. The Mystery is just the finished work of the original plan of the Gospel.
Hope this made sense.
CHB
Bea, (regarding some things in your initial post,) and whoever else it concerns:
If we are to be taught by anyone about the kingdom, surely first would be Jesus. "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.'" (John 18:36 ASV) Now consider the following three phrases where Jesus acknowledged that entering the kingdom, understood by his disciples as "salvation," was a right equivalence: "'Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God'. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looking upon them saith, 'With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God'." (Mark 10:24-27, ASV) If it is true for you, whoever you may be, that you are not in the kingdom of God, be confident God's will is for you to be quickened to live by His Spirit. The experience of regeneration, or being "born again" is the testimony of so many people. You may have this work of God in you too. He, "Rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the forgiveness of sins..." (Col 1:13-14, CLV)
One of the more glorious things I've experienced is that the Holy Spirit the Father sends in the name of Jesus is both The Realm and The Ruler of The Kingdom of God. That is why it is so called. The Kingdom of God is just God! Jesus suffered and died so that we could be brought into a direct experience of God, nothing between us and Him, unmediated by any other being. That is why the professional religious elite with titles of honor from other men claiming they are themselves the "headship" ministry is another kingdom blasphemously supplanting the Only LORD who bought them. The true Head of the body is present and directly quickening each member of His body. That is why they're called "His body."
"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..." (Romans 14:17, ASV) Some think only when the dimension of the physical (the same in which is food and drink for our body) is inescapably subjugated planet-wide to the manifest presence of God, then His kingdom has come. (Regardless of doctrinaire denials by the inexperienced) not only is that realm sometimes entered into already by saints, the fact that, "the kingdom of God is inside you..." (Lk 17.21) is a clue to how it is accomplished. In 2 Pet 1.3-11 "...the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..." is more fully explained, particulars built one upon another that this entrance NOW may, "...be richly supplied unto you." This kingdom is described as our becoming, "...participants of the divine nature." (v.4) The ladder rungs of this entrance, climbed with "all diligence," are ennumerated in this passage as "faith ...virtue ...knowledge ...self-control ...endurance ...devoutness ...brotherly-fondness ...love." (vs. 5-7)
reformer, I agree to most of your post although there is a lot in between the lines left out because of the nature of the board. I have never been one to pussy foot around with words, so point blank (Lee) says what he means and means what he says.
If I follow what 99.9 % of churches teach, then I would take every book of the bible to mean it is for Me in today's happenings. This is a grave error. Because every book was written for a reason and for a people.
For any human person to be a "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel" I would have to absolutely be a Jew with a covenant relationship with my God, and I would have to have brought that relationship to an end in some way (sin not brought to the high priest through my local priest ) So I can never be of the above, I can be adopted into the family of God, but Matt. was not for Gentiles when it was supposedly written. All I am saying with two Gospels is that we as adopees into His family is to know that some books are to be read as education of past issues to human kind, and others are to Gentiles of today. It is important to distinguish the things that differ.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And before the word is used, I will tell you that I am a believer in the rapture lie taught by today's churches, I believe that every person will be raptured by God in God's good time, one by one when He sees fit. ALL
Lee
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 18, 2009, 04:54:01 PM
reformer, I agree to most of your post although there is a lot in between the lines left out because of the nature of the board. I have never been one to pussy foot around with words, so point blank (Lee) says what he means and means what he says.
If I follow what 99.9 % of churches teach, then I would take every book of the bible to mean it is for Me in today's happenings. This is a grave error. Because every book was written for a reason and for a people.
Most demoninations set the Bible aside for other reasons. Most Christians are simply ignorant of what is Written. 97% have never read the Bible through even once. I 've understood for a number of years that people who believe in Racial DipSinsationalism are left with only a few verses in Ephesians, and those are in question. It is really one of the worst forms of modernism. It disguises itself by pretending to believe in the Bible...only, it was written for a people other than ourselves.
Have you ever noticed that the doctrines, specially the eschatology of DipSinsationalism, was formulated in Great Britain (1830-1850) and spread in the USA (1850-1900,) that were popularized by Scofield's Reference Bible (1909,) came into the Church about the same time as:
1.) Mormons (1830,)
2.) Seventh Day Adventism (from false prophecies of Miller in 1843-1844, it was organized in 1860,)
3.) Spiritism (Fox sisters 1847, "National Spiritualist Assoc. of the U.S. of A." 1863)
4.) Christ Scientists (
Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy published 1875)
5.) Jehovah Witnesses (
The Watchtower first published 1879)
Brother Kelly Varner suggested those cults' emergence was a smokescreen for the devil's real attack on the faith of the followers of Jesus and to and distract and discredit the genuine outpouring of the Holy Spirit (!900-1910.) To quote Varner: "Extreme dispensationalism butchers the past by relegating and confining the charismata (spiritual gifts) to the early Church and the Book of Acts. It destroys destiny by robbing the Church of her true identity in Christ as the seed of Abraham and David." (Whose Right It Is by Kelly Varner (Destiny Image, 1995) p.152-153 for copies http://www.reapnet.com or from the author's site http://www.kelleyvarner.org
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 18, 2009, 04:54:01 PM
For any human person to be a "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel" I would have to absolutely be a Jew with a covenant relationship with my God, and I would have to have brought that relationship to an end in some way (sin not brought to the high priest through my local priest ) So I can never be of the above, I can be adopted into the family of God, but Matt. was not for Gentiles when it was supposedly written. All I am saying with two Gospels is that we as adopees into His family is to know that some books are to be read as education of past issues to human kind, and others are to Gentiles of today. It is important to distinguish the things that differ.
The flesh profits NOTHING!!! There is only one Olive Tree! As the seed of Abraham we inherit the world. As the seed of David we have the right to rule it.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 18, 2009, 04:54:01 PM
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
These things were prior to the cutting of the never to be superceded New Covenant in the blood of Christ and speak of the ministry of Jesus the man prior to His death, resurrection and ascension, to be exalted to the right hand of God.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 18, 2009, 04:54:01 PM
And before the word is used, I will tell you that I am a believer in the rapture lie taught by today's churches, I believe that every person will be raptured by God in God's good time, one by one when He sees fit. ALL
Lee
I'm not sure what you mean to say here. It is best to use the actual words God chose to make His revelation known. What is written in the Holy Scriptures should determine how we say what we believe. Then we can work together on understanding what we hold in common. Oops! I forgot! You don't think it applies to you. Like, the Hebrew portion doesn't apply to the racially gentile believers today. Rather than our not being justified legalistically, you believe the Holy Spirit should help us re-invent our own
TORAH, and most of the New Testament was written to those who are racially "Jewish." Where is the Bunko Squad when you need 'em?!
Reformer, I really have no idea what a DipSinsationalism is or what it represents , I do know that all the things you said above about what "I am" I have no thoughts of that, so if it means dipsinsationalism to you, well that's not me, an answer to all your questions as to what I believe is out of a book by Matt. -16:17 Revelation from God the Father to Men and things He made.
and continuing Revelation forever after...
God deals with us from with in. In His own "Good" time.
as to that word calling, I am sorry that someone hurt you in the past with dipsinsationalism , but that is not me. I will look into the word tho...
Lee
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 09:00:12 AM
Reformer, I really have no idea what a DipSinsationalism is or what it represents
I believe he's referring to dispensationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism), the doctrine that God has formulated his interaction with humans in different ways over different periods of time. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his misspelling was a typo, not a conscious disparaging epithet.
Quote from: reFORMer on November 19, 2009, 03:10:26 AM
To quote Varner: "Extreme dispensationalism butchers the past by relegating and confining the charismata (spiritual gifts) to the early Church and the Book of Acts. It destroys destiny by robbing the Church of her true identity in Christ as the seed of Abraham and David."
:cloud9: I agree. Had to fight that one early on nearly everywhere I went because almost everyone in my neck of the woods was taught that the gifts of the Spirit were for the early church (as if there are two churches!) and not for today, and were continually trying to convince me of that.
In my desperation, I quit arguing with them, and told them if they didn't like what He gave me, argue with Him, not me. I also added, their arms were too short to box with God, but that was in my less tactful days :winkgrin: :laughing7: Blessings.....
Hi Lee,
I have been accused of this belief also and I don't know what it is either. I do know that some things that applied to Israel does not apply to us today. Moses law for one. The Covenants were to Israel and not Gentiles but lo and behold the Gentiles try to apply them to themselves, especially the New Covenant. It plainly says that the Covenants and the promises were ONLY to Israel (Jer. 31:31).
I think I had another post on this thread that was removed, I could be wrong though.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 19, 2009, 06:44:27 PM
Hi Lee,
I have been accused of this belief also and I don't know what it is either. I do know that some things that applied to Israel does not apply to us today. Moses law for one. The Covenants were to Israel and not Gentiles but lo and behold the Gentiles try to apply them to themselves, especially the New Covenant. It plainly says that the Covenants and the promises were ONLY to Israel (Jer. 31:31).
I think I had another post on this thread that was removed, I could be wrong though.
CHB
CHB,
Your understanding of scriptures and all the promises of God will depend on how you define Israel. When I read 'Israel' in the scriptures, I do not envision the modern day "State of Israel" that was put together by a group of men after WWII . To me, that is not Israel anymore than earthly Jerusalem is the New Jerusalem. Now, if you think of that worldly place as being the Israel of God, you are bound to stay in a state of confusion when trying to understand the scriptures. That's the way I see it. I know this is a topic that can cause a heap of division, and I don't intend to fight about it, but I just wanted to make it clear that I think Jews are those who are in Christ and have had their hearts circumcised by the power and working of the Holy Spirit. No one can be a child of God by natural birth. By nature, we are the children of wrath. Ye must be born again.
Anne
Quote from: CHB on November 19, 2009, 06:44:27 PM
Hi Lee,
I have been accused of this belief also and I don't know what it is either. I do know that some things that applied to Israel does not apply to us today. Moses law for one. The Covenants were to Israel and not Gentiles but lo and behold the Gentiles try to apply them to themselves, especially the New Covenant. It plainly says that the Covenants and the promises were ONLY to Israel (Jer. 31:31).
I think I had another post on this thread that was removed, I could be wrong though.
CHB
Quick note - I haven't heard of, or known of any of your posts to be removed, C.
Thank you CHB, I just posted on other thread
Lee
Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2009, 09:15:53 PM
Quote from: CHB on November 19, 2009, 06:44:27 PM
Hi Lee,
I have been accused of this belief also and I don't know what it is either. I do know that some things that applied to Israel does not apply to us today. Moses law for one. The Covenants were to Israel and not Gentiles but lo and behold the Gentiles try to apply them to themselves, especially the New Covenant. It plainly says that the Covenants and the promises were ONLY to Israel (Jer. 31:31).
I think I had another post on this thread that was removed, I could be wrong though.
CHB
Quick note - I haven't heard of, or known of any of your posts to be removed, C.
Jabcat,
I was pretty sure I posted an answer to Bea's post but I may not have hit the post button, it has happened before. Senior moment I guess. :laughing7: No worries on my part. :happy3:
CHB