(prompted by eaglesway response to ps elsewhere as indicated in later quotes)
Consideration of apparent (significant) oversight on William Barclay's assessment of the usage and meaning of kolasi-, and to a lesser extent aionio- (thus in general the word 'families' including aionion, kolasin, etc.).
As well as the oversight of many others who also reflect, or hold, a similar view.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2016, 08:12:12 AM
William Barcaly is "apparently wrong"?
Yes, wrong.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2016, 08:12:12 AM
Aionios is plainly a word for an "age" or an "eon".
Not so sure about that, aion may be the plainer word for that, at least Barclay thinks so.
But, biblically indicated, aionios is definitely a word for un-ending regarding Jesus kingdom Lk 1:33 (ageS withOUT end), the Son of man's kingdom, the context of Matt 25:31-46. (Can anyone substantiate reasonable doubt that the kingdom/throne/reign spoken of in the two passages is not the same?)
Consider a snippet from Barclay's writing on aionios and kolasis from
The Apostle's Creed (https://books.google.com/books?id=bBOqGJc6tpcC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=barclay+kolasis&source=bl&ots=YDxA-gAN4O&sig=KjGfzNBwDPS-NcleJu5wAG-mdjY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6Xb4T93bM4XMqgHP25GLCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false).
Note that
for aionios he makes mention of the OT (presumably septuagint) usage.
Yet,
for kolasis he makes NO mention of the OT.
Even though the septuagint and its apocrypha actually contain the form kolasin, in multiple places.
(Anyone know if he ever addresses OT usage of kolasi- in any of his writings? And where?)
From katbiblon.com, the found occurrences are at:
2Mc 4:38, 3Mc 1:3, Wsd 16:24, Wsd 19:4, Jer 18:20, Ez 14:3, Ez 14:4, Ez 14:7, Ez 18:30, Ez 43:11, Ez 44:12
At the least, some of these are not corrective/remedial in any sense I understand as such.
Another author has lists including the above, and additionally for kolazo:
(from here (https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/342qra/part_6_%CE%B1%E1%BC%B0%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_ai%C5%8Dnios_in_jewish_and_christian/csgj982) the following)
κόλασις (kolasis) is used in (LXX) Wisdom 11:13, Wisd 16:2, Wisd 16:24, Wisd 19:4, 2 Macc 4:38, 3 Macc 1:3, 3 Macc 7:10, 4 Macc 8:9, Jeremiah 18:20, Ezek 14:3, Ezek 14:4, Ezek 14:7, Ezek 18:30, Ezek 43:11, Ezek 44:12 [in Ezekiel, it's strangely used to translate מִכְשׁוֹל] (and, in the New Testament, Matthew 25:46 and 1 John 4:18).
Uses of the verb form κολάζω (kolazō) are found in 1 Macc 7:7, 2 Macc 6:14, 3 Macc 3:26, 3 Macc 7:3, 3 Macc 7:14, 4 Macc 2:12, 4 Macc 8:6, 4 Macc 18:5, (Old Greek) Daniel 6:12, Wisd 3:4, Wisd 11:5, Wisd 11:8, Wisd 11:16, Wisd 12:14, Wisd 12:15, Wisd 12:27, Wisd 14:10, Wisd 16:1, Wisd 16:9, Wisd 18:11, Wisd 18:22, 1 Esdras 8:24 (and 2 Peter 2:9 and Acts 4:21 in the NT).Barclay also references two other early authors from 2nd century, who seem to have also overlooked that usage (as well as that regarding the brazen bull.) (The above linked document also includes a link to multiple non-biblical uses via a perseus search.)
In the case of 3Mc 1:3, the english words in various translations (that I've observed) representing the thought (of what is kolasin in septuagint) seem to include vengeance, fate, and punishment.
2Mc 4:38 "slew the cursed murderer", which was "his punishment, as he had deserved."
And Jer 18:20, Jeremiah's opponents were looking to get rid of him, so as not to hear what he had to say - not to reform him. To cut him off, as it were, from their presence and the influence of others.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2016, 08:12:12 AM
Kolassis is plainly a word that means "pruning".
Actually, I think it is kolazo that (might) clearly mean pruning, not kolasis/kolasin.
While kolasis/kolasin may have in some instance been used that way, that was not its exclusive use (maybe not at all) in septuagint (and its apocrypha), nor in (secular) text regarding the Phalaris brazen/bronze bull, both of which were in a timeframe still preceding, but closer to NT author's, and more likely to be indicative of their usage of the word than plato/aristotle usage.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2016, 08:12:12 AM
You have to beware reading things to confirm your prejudices,
I try to.
You need to as well.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2016, 08:12:12 AM
and try reading what the scriptures themselves teach, with an open heart and mind.
What do those OT verses where septuagint uses kolasi-/kolazo indicate about the nature(s) of such actions?
If even one of them is not corrective/remedial (and some certainly seem not),
-then Barclay was wrong, and in error when he wrote "The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed."
-And, every claim on this site (and elsewhere) regarding the exclusive correctiveness/remediality meaning of kolasi- would be false and wrong.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2016, 08:12:12 AM
You present sources that make simple assertions without the evidence for them or the context of the rest of the scriptures.
Consider re-examining what I and my sources have written.
I suspect I have done a better job in that regard than William Barclay did, both here and elsewhere on this site.
Wasn't the then jewish system that did not have Jesus which was cut off "eternally" at that point? The Jewish religion that we have today is not really phariseical anymore. Sinners don't get executed and none of them save the fanatics want that anymore. And that is grace too.
Luke 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."
Daniel 7:14 to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom,
and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him;
His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."
I would like to think Daniel 7:14 could be used as a commentary on Luke 1:33
So, where it is stated that "of His kingdom there shall be no consummation," maybe we should think of that kingdom as not being confined (to just Israel)?
Being an "eonian jurisdiction" we see it as a jurisdiction pertaining to the eons. His (Christ's) jurisdiction will not pass away during the eons. At the consummation
of the eons He hands the kingdom over to God and subjects Himself to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:22-28).
The basic meaning for the word "eon" is "duration." We know if that duration is unending or has boundaries. Since there are verses which tell us the eons end,
We know by those definitive verses that the eons are not eternal. Therefore it is impossible for its adjectival form (eonian) to be greater than its noun form (eon).
Quote from: ps on September 10, 2016, 01:36:17 PM
But, biblically indicated, aionios is definitely a word for un-ending regarding Jesus kingdom Lk 1:33 (ageS withOUT end), the Son of man's kingdom, the context of Matt 25:31-46.
no, for Jesus hands His Kingdom to the Father..so, His kingdom 'ends' one day...when the Father takes over so He may be ALL in ALL.
Quote from: darryl on September 30, 2016, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: ps on September 10, 2016, 01:36:17 PM
But, biblically indicated, aionios is definitely a word for un-ending regarding Jesus kingdom Lk 1:33 (ageS withOUT end), the Son of man's kingdom, the context of Matt 25:31-46.
no, for Jesus hands His Kingdom to the Father..so, His kingdom 'ends' one day...when the Father takes over so He may be ALL in ALL.
But.. I still think Jesus will be the "head of the body"... "all things gathered into Him" and I believe all things will remain in Him.. that He will still be "Lord of lords and King of Kings"
Even at the beginning.. "all things were created by and through Him" - Ps 2 says "this is the decree.. you are my Son, this day I declare You"
A decree, which I think of as a forever natural law.. I don't see Jesus as becoming just one of the crowd.. He is always the "firstborn of all creation" and the Kingdom He builds, though submitted fully to the Father.. will never end.. but will be ages without end..
:Peace2: :gsmile:
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2016, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: darryl on September 30, 2016, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: ps on September 10, 2016, 01:36:17 PM
But, biblically indicated, aionios is definitely a word for un-ending regarding Jesus kingdom Lk 1:33 (ageS withOUT end), the Son of man's kingdom, the context of Matt 25:31-46.
no, for Jesus hands His Kingdom to the Father..so, His kingdom 'ends' one day...when the Father takes over so He may be ALL in ALL.
But.. I still think Jesus will be the "head of the body"... "all things gathered into Him" and I believe all things will remain in Him.. that He will still be "Lord of lords and King of Kings"
Even at the beginning.. "all things were created by and through Him" - Ps 2 says "this is the decree.. you are my Son, this day I declare You"
A decree, which I think of as a forever natural law.. I don't see Jesus as becoming just one of the crowd.. He is always the "firstborn of all creation" and the Kingdom He builds, though submitted fully to the Father.. will never end.. but will be ages without end..
:Peace2: :gsmile:
I think both perspectives are true because Jesus is "the kingdom of God" and life in Christ will endure through the ages until the age of the ages when all things are gathered into one in Christ Jesus, and all rule, power and authority are abolished because God has become all in all.
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2016, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: darryl on September 30, 2016, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: ps on September 10, 2016, 01:36:17 PM
But, biblically indicated, aionios is definitely a word for un-ending regarding Jesus kingdom Lk 1:33 (ageS withOUT end), the Son of man's kingdom, the context of Matt 25:31-46.
no, for Jesus hands His Kingdom to the Father..so, His kingdom 'ends' one day...when the Father takes over so He may be ALL in ALL.
But.. I still think Jesus will be the "head of the body"... "all things gathered into Him" and I believe all things will remain in Him.. that He will still be "Lord of lords and King of Kings"
Even at the beginning.. "all things were created by and through Him" - Ps 2 says "this is the decree.. you are my Son, this day I declare You"
A decree, which I think of as a forever natural law.. I don't see Jesus as becoming just one of the crowd.. He is always the "firstborn of all creation" and the Kingdom He builds, though submitted fully to the Father.. will never end.. but will be ages without end..
:Peace2: :gsmile:
Hi Marie,
Jesus being the head of the body was a secret that Luke didn't know about when he wrote that verse. But it is a wonderful truth you have with very few in Christendom have! Yes, all will be gathered unto Him. But He rules so perfectly as to rule out all rule. Then He hands everything over to the Father and He subjected Himself to God and then God is All in all.
Yes, all will be gathered unto Him. But He rules so perfectly as to rule out all rule. Then He hands everything over to the Father and He subjected Himself to God and then God is All in all.
:iagree:
For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope(looking forward to) 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 02, 2016, 06:48:48 PM
Yes, all will be gathered unto Him. But He rules so perfectly as to rule out all rule. Then He hands everything over to the Father and He subjected Himself to God and then God is All in all.
:iagree:
For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope(looking forward to) 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Won't that be a wonderful event, eaglesway? No more politics, no more wars, no more taxes, no more death, all replaced with GOD our Father!
:banana: :dsunny:
To me, it is such a beautiful thing, we have this one blessed assurance that there will be so much love when God is all in all that there will be no need for government of any kind any more. Just a tremendous well of righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost :o)
And, no more Presidential Campaigns! Whoooooohooooo!
:dsunny:
D.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 02, 2016, 07:05:54 PM
:banana: :dsunny:
To me, it is such a beautiful thing, we have this one blessed assurance that there will be so much love when God is all in all that there will be no need for government of any kind any more. Just a tremendous well of righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost :o)
Amen!
So much of our conflict can be traced to superiority/bullying, selfishness, egomania, on a grand scale. History of wars breaking out between nations where one feels better than the other, more power, more 'rights' to be recognised and dominate.
Removing those objectives and inequalities will make changes to the whole life-style.
No wonder Paul mentions in Galations and Colossians there will no longer be Jew, Greek, Barbarians, Slaves.....
Christ's work being perfect and pure; -greater than my personal attempts- removes the fear of failure for me.
So indeed a literal blessed assurance.
Would explain why Paul said to press on, for the things to come are greater than the temporary.