and she thought I was wrong. xD She claimed that she used to believe in UR, but then decided that after reading Romans and such that she didn't agree with it anymore. She said she believed in the elect. I asked, if God wants all to be saved and is fully capable of saving all men (and she agreed he was capable of saving all men), why doesn't he save all men? She said she didn't know and implied that this was a question only God knows the answer to. So, the whole situation wasn't too bad, I tried to respect her, and I would say I did (I didn't raise my voice or go crazy and remained polite the entire time), but then she started pressing religion down my friends throat and that made me angry. She also quoted the Bible to prove the Bible's accuracy (while talking to my friend), which is, of course, also known as begging the question and is known as a logical fallacy. I still remained polite, but part of me wishes I would have stood up a little more against her brain washing. It was sad too, because her daughter recently became an atheist, and it's no wonder. I would too if I had to deal with her mother (or at least, I feel like I would)!!
Stupid doctrine of unending separation of God. Stupid ONLY the elect get saved doctrine. Stupid belief that God preordains people to be lost forever.
Oh, and on a side note: despite supposedly studying Hebrew and (perhaps) Greek, she didn't know anything about there being "age-lasting"/"age-during" within the Bible which is translated from the word aion and aionios. She might have studied it, but if she did, she missed a VERY IMPORTANT meaning of a word/words.
Well, gosh - at least you had enough boldness to bring up God. I have reached a point of avoiding discussing God/religion/politics or just about anything with anyone because I have grown tired of the contention over the years. I feel like - what is the use in arguing with anyone. But then sometimes I recall that maybe there is someone out there suffering because of having the wrong image of God as much as I suffered and I need to find those people and help deliver them from their personal misery.
Is it just me who has grown very quiet about faith or is it common now for people to be very private with their personal beliefs due to the climate of anger and fear that has settled over the whole earth?
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on June 23, 2009, 11:06:33 AM
Well, gosh - at least you had enough boldness to bring up God. I have reached a point of avoiding discussing God/religion/politics or just about anything with anyone because I have grown tired of the contention over the years. I feel like - what is the use in arguing with anyone. But then sometimes I recall that maybe there is someone out there suffering because of having the wrong image of God as much as I suffered and I need to find those people and help deliver them from their personal misery.
Is it just me who has grown very quiet about faith or is it common now for people to be very private with their personal beliefs due to the climate of anger and fear that has settled over the whole earth?
Well, I used to be pretty quiet about my beliefs to people that I talked with, but now that I believe in UR I'm not really afraid like I used to be. Now I don't have to tell people "turn or burn" and it makes conversations that much easier. Plus, I can say God REALLY DOES LOVE THEM without ANY catch WHATSOEVER! :bigGrin: But yes, I do know where you're coming from too. I may not ever talk to her mom again about religion because of last night, and my brother, who disagrees (currently) with UR, I tend to shy away from discussion with him, because he can become frustrated. So, to me, I suppose it depends on who will listen respectfully and have an open mind and those who won't. To those that won't: is there even reason to talk with them?? To those that will: I'm ready to talk!! :)
Interestingly, for me, I was never really one that would, in the middle of a "debate," say that I was wrong. It was only after discussing my views that later on I would start to change my mind on things. Who knows, maybe I planted a seed back into my friend's mom's mind. Hopefully I did!
Quote from: Tim B on June 23, 2009, 10:26:47 AM
and she thought I was wrong. xD She claimed that she used to believe in UR, but then decided that after reading Romans and such that she didn't agree with it anymore. She said she believed in the elect. I asked, if God wants all to be saved and is fully capable of saving all men (and she agreed he was capable of saving all men), why doesn't he save all men? She said she didn't know and implied that this was a question only God knows the answer to. So, the whole situation wasn't too bad, I tried to respect her, and I would say I did (I didn't raise my voice or go crazy and remained polite the entire time), but then she started pressing religion down my friends throat and that made me angry. She also quoted the Bible to prove the Bible's accuracy (while talking to my friend), which is, of course, also known as begging the question and is known as a logical fallacy. I still remained polite, but part of me wishes I would have stood up a little more against her brain washing. It was sad too, because her daughter recently became an atheist, and it's no wonder. I would too if I had to deal with her mother (or at least, I feel like I would)!!
Stupid doctrine of unending separation of God. Stupid ONLY the elect get saved doctrine. Stupid belief that God preordains people to be lost forever.
Oh, and on a side note: despite supposedly studying Hebrew and (perhaps) Greek, she didn't know anything about there being "age-lasting"/"age-during" within the Bible which is translated from the word aion and aionios. She might have studied it, but if she did, she missed a VERY IMPORTANT meaning of a word/words.
I am waiting to tell my family one day, God has not lead me to speak about it with any of them just yet. Though I have told a few friends and have lost some due to it, all is good either way. I know the resistance that comes when you open up about it. The Lord is showing me though a situation he will use when it is time for me to tell them about it. It is the suicide of a family member that has messed up some of them and they believe he will be lost forever.
I have a question though, What does the
elect actually mean?
Hello. You may get various answers, and people have different understandings of this, but here's mine. My understanding of the 'elect' is they are those God gives faith to believe in this lifetime...the 'chosen', which He uses for His purposes, including sharing the Good News with others.
IMO, they are those to whom He specifically, individually visits with His Spirit, convicts them of their need for Him, then gives them the faith to believe and turn to Him in trust as their Savior; getting "saved". I don't believe all are given that faith to believe unto salvation in this lifetime; only some, the 'elect' or 'chosen'. Thus scriptures like Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." As an example, Jesus told the disciples that if He didn't speak to the people in parables, they would understand; and that it hadn't been given to them to understand, it had been given to the disciples.
God's got a GREAT BIG PLAN. I do believe all are predestined, but in our own order. Some now, all later at the consummation. My :2c:.
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 02:23:46 AM
Hello. You may get various answers, and people have different understandings of this, but here's mine. My understanding of the 'elect' is they are those God gives faith to believe in this lifetime...the 'chosen', which He uses for His purposes, including sharing the Good News with others.
IMO, they are those to whom He specifically, individually visits with His Spirit, convicts them of their need for Him, then gives them the faith to believe and turn to Him in trust as their Savior; getting "saved". I don't believe all are given that faith to believe unto salvation in this lifetime; only some, thus the elect or chosen. Thus scriptures like Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
I do believe all are predestined, but in our own order. Some now, all later at the consummation. My :2c:.
This makes sense to me. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Since not all will be saved in this lifetime..There is an elect that will be and MUST be for the purposes of God on earth today.
Good stuff.
I also think the elect are elected FOR or to DO something, not just be elect. The very term 'elect' seems to imply this yet many think being 'elect' is an end in itself.
I think the elect get the privelage of bringing in the rest via the Lord Jesus Christ.
cp
Amen Claypot Amen.
He Is The Father In Us.
I found a definition once, and now I don't remember where it was, that said the ecclesia can mean "set aside for a specific purpose". Pretty cool.
Quote from: claypot on June 24, 2009, 02:30:22 AM
Good stuff.
I also think the elect are elected FOR or to DO something, not just be elect. The very term 'elect' seems to imply this yet many think being 'elect' is an end in itself.
I think the elect get the privelage of bringing in the rest via the Lord Jesus Christ.
cp
Yeah, exactly. They have a purpose. WE have a purpose. wow..I am full of joy again today just thinking about how Gods plan goes far beyond anything that we have come up with in the traditions of man. Amazing, Amazing Love..Amazing Love.....How could it be :gangel: Just three years ago I would have never thought this would be the place God would have me at now, no idea..No clue I would discover this awesome plan of his...
I was reading in a prayer book a few weeks ago I use to keep back in 2005 and I saw a prayer I wrote on the last page back then, I can't believe I still had this book I have moved too many times to count since then. It said, "God, I wish EVERYONE could be saved, please God do not send anyone to hell forever" It was like a plea to God. I remember back then I would go on long fasts up to 40 day fasts for the world and salvation and God's mercy on people. I had no clue God was setting me up for something so awesome..He answered my prayer in MORE ways than I can even begin to write.....He already knew he would reveal this to me two years later...Amazing Love...No wonder I instantly believed....
Excuse me while I take a praise break.. :boogie: :boydance: :Egyptdance2: :egyptdance: :angelharp: :violin: :banana: :angel4: :angel4:
:boogie:
Here's how "instant" it was :bigGrin:; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Christ Jesus to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace...In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" -- Ephesians 1:2-5, 11.
There's an old song, "When He Was On The Cross, I Was On His Mind". :bowing:
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 02:53:10 AM
:boogie:
Here's how "instant" it was :bigGrin:; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Christ Jesus to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace...In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" -- Ephesians 1:2-5, 11.
HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!
:bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :goodone: :iagree: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 02:55:03 AM
There's an old song, "When He Was On The Cross, I Was On His Mind". :bowing:
YES, WE WERE!
I was watching this yesterday and was moved to tears as God was speaking to me so deeply. I had not watched this movie since it came out some years ago. But, I have always loved this song..So, I found it on youtube yesterday..
Yes, I will..By Bebo Norman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBN_axD6VeY
Isn't it incredible, that when God gives us just a little bit more glimpse of Him and His PLAN, how everything starts fitting together. Including His majesty, sovereignty, some of the "why's" of things. As a witness, He gave me this;
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
4:19 We love him, because he first loved us
Can't get youtube from work...blocked. I'll try to remember to catch it at home later.
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 03:01:33 AM
Isn't it incredible, that when God gives us just a little bit more glimpse of Him and His PLAN, how everything starts fitting together. Including His majesty, sovereignty, some of the "why's" of things. As a witness, He gave me this;
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
4:19 We love him, because he first loved us
It is so awesome jabcat, I am crying now thinking about it...wow!.....It ALL starts fitting together..more than incredible..I have no words to describe it.... :cloud9:
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 03:03:02 AM
Can't get youtube from work...blocked. I'll try to remember to catch it at home later.
Ah shoot....Yeah, It is moving..well, for me anyway..I love this song, I heard it years ago and it became one of my favorites...long before UR ever entered my mind..The clip from the movie with the song is so perfect...
..and that God would elect me to know of his awesome love in this AGE...Amazing he is... :cloud9:
I am also humbled in His presence
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 02:35:50 AM
I found a definition once, and now I don't remember where it was, that said the ecclesia can mean "set aside for a specific purpose". Pretty cool.
Yepper!...TOO cool.....
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 03:03:02 AM
Can't get youtube from work...blocked. I'll try to remember to catch it at home later.
Several ways around that (depending on security)
Lets start with:
www.keepvid.com.
Enter the URL and download the movie.
Then watch it using Mediaplayer.
Another one that might work.
www.altavista.com
Select babelfish
Now let it translate the youtube page between to languages.
I would try something-English
Or use
http://www.google.com/language_tools
Enter URL at translate a webpage
I'll play around with these, thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 02:53:10 AM
:boogie:
Here's how "instant" it was :bigGrin:; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Christ Jesus to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace...In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" -- Ephesians 1:2-5, 11.
Hey, don't forget Eph 1:9-10, as that tells us what we are called to understand:
Eph 1:9 Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in [a]Him,
10 [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.
Notice it is the mystery of His will that is made known to
us. Who is the us? The same people - the elect mentioned in verse 4-5.
The mainstream thinks they know the mystery of his will: that Jesus came to save the elect.
But the real mystery of his will is that all things will be unified (made one), brought under one head and consummated in Christ! That is what one must understand, in order to be elect. Because of this, I firmly believe one cannot be "elect" unless they have been given to understand UR.
It is a grand purpose that the elect have ahead of them! The elect are spiritually known as Abraham's seed (offspring - see Gal 3:29, Rom 9:8). Truly, they will bless all nations, just like God promised Abraham:
Gen 28:14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south.
All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.That is what the efforts of the elect will do. They will bless all peoples on earth! So how can all people being blessed lead to anything other than the salvation of all?
Great thread!
What kind of mystery is it to think that Christ is coming back only for those who invited him into their hearts? The mystery for me is, that even those who don't acknowledge him are still redeemed regardless of what their mind has convinced them. Now "that's" a mystery.
Yes that is a mystery indeed! Even though I know the final outcome "all saved", how it all will happen is a mystery.
Do a search on "mystery" on biblegateway and you will find some great verses. I always found it curious that it was called "Mystery Babylon" in Rev... I guess the ETers have thier own "mystery" too...
Quote from: legoman on June 24, 2009, 08:42:02 PM
Yes that is a mystery indeed! Even though I know the final outcome "all saved", how it all will happen is a mystery.
Do a search on "mystery" on biblegateway and you will find some great verses. I always found it curious that it was called "Mystery Babylon" in Rev... I guess the ETers have thier own "mystery" too...
For me, the Babylon part is the part in us that is at emnity against God . .the carnality in us . . .and as such, it takes truth and clouds it up so that it becomes more of a mystery than a reality. Thus, the title "Mystery Babylon" As my mind traduces (definition of devil again) the Truth of the Word, it takes simple truths and complicates them . . it does the opposite of John the Baptist's message, it takes straight roads and makes them crooked, and it takes flat plains and makes mountain ranges out of them. The devil as the traditional church paints him out to be, has nothing to do with it . .it's the devil processing within me that mystifies life into darkness.
Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now . . .
:soap: :soap:
Stay on that soapbox Brother. Tis a good one. Seeing into Gods world, the spiritual, is very mysterious yet it feels good as it becomes ones home.
cp
Quote from: claypot on June 24, 2009, 10:00:02 PM
Stay on that soapbox Brother. Tis a good one. Seeing into Gods world, the spiritual, is very mysterious yet it feels good as it becomes ones home.
cp
So true, So true...It feels sooooooo good..they mystery of it all......
Quote from: Nathan on June 24, 2009, 07:43:30 PM
Great thread!
What kind of mystery is it to think that Christ is coming back only for those who invited him into their hearts? The mystery for me is, that even those who don't acknowledge him are still redeemed regardless of what their mind has convinced them. Now "that's" a mystery.
Yes....Regardless of what they think.......another mystery!!!.......Well, I guess it is not...it is LOVE!!!
Quote from: Tim B on June 23, 2009, 10:26:47 AM
and she thought I was wrong. xD She claimed that she used to believe in UR, but then decided that after reading Romans and such that she didn't agree with it anymore. She said she believed in the elect. I asked, if God wants all to be saved and is fully capable of saving all men (and she agreed he was capable of saving all men), why doesn't he save all men? She said she didn't know and implied that this was a question only God knows the answer to. So, the whole situation wasn't too bad, I tried to respect her, and I would say I did (I didn't raise my voice or go crazy and remained polite the entire time), but then she started pressing religion down my friends throat and that made me angry. She also quoted the Bible to prove the Bible's accuracy (while talking to my friend), which is, of course, also known as begging the question and is known as a logical fallacy. I still remained polite, but part of me wishes I would have stood up a little more against her brain washing. It was sad too, because her daughter recently became an atheist, and it's no wonder. I would too if I had to deal with her mother (or at least, I feel like I would)!!
Stupid doctrine of unending separation of God. Stupid ONLY the elect get saved doctrine. Stupid belief that God preordains people to be lost forever.
Oh, and on a side note: despite supposedly studying Hebrew and (perhaps) Greek, she didn't know anything about there being "age-lasting"/"age-during" within the Bible which is translated from the word aion and aionios. She might have studied it, but if she did, she missed a VERY IMPORTANT meaning of a word/words.
She doesn't believe in UR because she read
Romans? :mshock: Romans is one of the most universalistic books in the NT!
Quote from: Doc on June 25, 2009, 12:15:17 AM
Quote from: Tim B on June 23, 2009, 10:26:47 AM
and she thought I was wrong. xD She claimed that she used to believe in UR, but then decided that after reading Romans and such that she didn't agree with it anymore. She said she believed in the elect. I asked, if God wants all to be saved and is fully capable of saving all men (and she agreed he was capable of saving all men), why doesn't he save all men? She said she didn't know and implied that this was a question only God knows the answer to. So, the whole situation wasn't too bad, I tried to respect her, and I would say I did (I didn't raise my voice or go crazy and remained polite the entire time), but then she started pressing religion down my friends throat and that made me angry. She also quoted the Bible to prove the Bible's accuracy (while talking to my friend), which is, of course, also known as begging the question and is known as a logical fallacy. I still remained polite, but part of me wishes I would have stood up a little more against her brain washing. It was sad too, because her daughter recently became an atheist, and it's no wonder. I would too if I had to deal with her mother (or at least, I feel like I would)!!
Stupid doctrine of unending separation of God. Stupid ONLY the elect get saved doctrine. Stupid belief that God preordains people to be lost forever.
Oh, and on a side note: despite supposedly studying Hebrew and (perhaps) Greek, she didn't know anything about there being "age-lasting"/"age-during" within the Bible which is translated from the word aion and aionios. She might have studied it, but if she did, she missed a VERY IMPORTANT meaning of a word/words.
She doesn't believe in UR because she read Romans? :mshock: Romans is one of the most universalistic books in the NT!
Well, even if it didn't fully convince her, she seemed to indicate, at the very least, that it influenced her. And yes, Romans does seem to be very universalistic in my opinion as well!
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 09:44:43 AM
I'll play around with these, thanks.
Formerly known as GodTube: http://www.tangle.com/
A youtube with only Christian content.
Far less known so likely far less blocked...
- Videos: http://www.tangle.com/video?category=added_today (http://www.tangle.com/video?category=added_today)
- Music: http://www.tangle.com/music (http://www.tangle.com/music)
- Ministries: http://www.tangle.com/ministry (http://www.tangle.com/ministry)
(if it's unblocked) this site might be a best first choice for posting here???
Just my (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:I0REo8PhM2uWbM:http://www.acf-fr.org/i/08-01-17_money8.jpg)
:thumbsup: :ty:
Quote from: jabcat on June 24, 2009, 03:01:33 AM
Isn't it incredible, that when God gives us just a little bit more glimpse of Him and His PLAN, how everything starts fitting together. Including His majesty, sovereignty, some of the "why's" of things. As a witness, He gave me this;
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
4:19 We love him, because he first loved us
God conquers all things with his amazing love,when he found me I was not "worthy" I did not know or love him but when I saw that after all I had done and thought that he still loved me I could not still be the same person I was before.When he shows you who he is its the love that changes you brings you to tears and makes you humble yourself before him.Because he loved me In a way that i could not love I loved him all the more....