Sin, suffering, free will and Romans 9

[Farlsborough]

I'm continuing to read through the articles on TM. Just read the one about free will and so on.

I'm confused by a few things:

Firstly, Gary seems to suggest that God wills evil to occur, but that it all forms part of His master plan to reveal His glory. Gary also suggests that when we see things clearly, in the next age, people will inevitably choose to humbly bow the knee. But why did God have to formulate a plan that involved some of the utter atrocities that we see around us just to add to His glory? God partially masking Himself from mankind to allow them free will (rather than forcing their hands with a full revelation) is one of the arguments of the orthodox church, but Gary argues that this is precisely what He does in the next age. So why not do it from the very beginning to avoid all this suffering and obtain the same result?

Secondly, Romans 9: isn't this about God using nations to discipline His people? If you look back at the verses quoted from Jeremiah, doesn't it talk about people choosing to submit themselves to God?

And what about Ezekiel: "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." Does this not indicate that we can choose to turn to God which pleases Him, and therefore presumably choose to reject God? Surely Gary would say that in some way, God *does* take pleasure because He ordained this style of lesson-learning through suffering?

[Ross]

Hi;
Keep searching and asking as this is how we learn.


Isaiah 45;6,7 " I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, the Lord do all these things."

Seems hard to comprehend how God can do all that and expect us to be good.
But Paul makes the points about the pot and the potter, which is a quote from;
Isaiah 45;9
" Woe to the one who argues with his maker- one clay pot among many.
Does the clay say to the one forming it;
What are you making?
Or does your work say, he has no hands.
How absurd is the one saying to his father, What are you fathering? "

Without the hope of a resurrection this could all seem oppressive.
So the key question , for me, is why were we were made in the first place?

We are made in God's image.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was specifically eaten from so that man will learn right from wrong.
The tree of life could not be eaten from so it was protected.
Christ is that tree of life. As He said;
I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father  but by Me.
We are going to be in the heavens in the resurrection. We will be changed from physical to spiritual.

Paul also says an interesting thing in 1 Corinthians 3;6 " I planted, Apollos watered, but God makes it grow. [7] So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God Who gives the growth."

All this so that true equality is happening because of God, not personal efforts.

Then 1 Corinthians 15 holds the key to the gospel.
Vs 10  But by God's grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, YET NOT I, BUT GOD'S GRACE THAT WAS IN ME"

vs 19 " If we have placed our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone.:

vs 22 For just as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ will ALL be made alive, but each IN HIS OWN TURN."

vs 42 Sown in corruption, raised in in-corruption,
sown in dishonor, raised on glory
sown in weakness, raised on power,
sown in a natural body, raised in a spiritual body.

vs 49 " And just as we have born the image of the man made of dust, we will be the image of the heavenly man."

* Romans 9 makes a great point about Jacob and Esau;
[11] " Before they had been born or had done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose might stand according to election."
Not personal effort, but  His plan.
[23] " And what if he did this to make known the riches of His glory in vessels of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory?"

Coming to know this and so much more relieves all inadequacy and failures because of the reassurance of His work and provision.
This life is temporary, the things to come are eternal.

[micah7:9]

You stated, "We are made in God's image."

It is my opinion and belief that man is being made in His likeness and image, male and female, The Creator, the Potter is still about the Potters/Creators business. Should man have "been made in His image and likeness, male and female, and have dominion" the charge given in Genesis 2:2:16-17 would have been heeded. But the man, living soul of Gen. 2:7 as well as his counterpart-helpmate of Gen. 2:23 would not have fallen to to the spell of the adversary of Gen. 3.
Man was spiritually weak, man had no spiritual strength to defend the wiles. No, I believe we are being made in the likeness and image, male and female and for that finished product we must go through judgement, the/a lake of fire. And remember 1Pe 4:17  because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
Yeah, that judgment is the lake of fire...believe it. Oh yeah this is just an opinion. :dsunny:

[Seth]

Firstly, Gary seems to suggest that God wills evil to occur, but that it all forms part of His master plan to reveal His glory. Gary also suggests that when we see things clearly, in the next age, people will inevitably choose to humbly bow the knee. But why did God have to formulate a plan that involved some of the utter atrocities that we see around us just to add to His glory? God partially masking Himself from mankind to allow them free will (rather than forcing their hands with a full revelation) is one of the arguments of the orthodox church, but Gary argues that this is precisely what He does in the next age. So why not do it from the very beginning to avoid all this suffering and obtain the same result?

That's the view of the orthodox church, I agree. But I believe there is a simpler, more scriptural answer as to what evil has to do in God's plan.

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (anah - humbled, lowered) therewith.

Evil humbles man.

And what about Ezekiel: "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." Does this not indicate that we can choose to turn to God which pleases Him, and therefore presumably choose to reject God? Surely Gary would say that in some way, God *does* take pleasure because He ordained this style of lesson-learning through suffering?

This gets into the levels of will that we see in Romans 9. On the one hand, Pharaoh continually thwarted God's will, but that in itself was all part of God's higher plan.

[WhiteWings]

I'm continuing to read through the articles on TM. Just read the one about free will and so on.

I'm confused by a few things:

Firstly, Gary seems to suggest that God wills evil to occur

I think that's true.
God is almighty, but still He didn't destroy all evil. For me that simply means He for some reason allows it to continue.

[joeteekay]

All that God has created is ultimately good. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL. One annot come to the tree of life without first eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL We could not understand (experience) good without understanding (experiencing) EVIL. Evil is a necessary evil  :winkgrin: for the ultimate good of all. Evil will eventually cease to exist in the new Heavens and New earth. IMO

[micah7:9]

All that God has created is ultimately good. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL. One annot come to the tree of life without first eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL We could not understand (experience) good without understanding (experiencing) EVIL. Evil is a necessary evil  :winkgrin: for the ultimate good of all. Evil will eventually cease to exist in the new Heavens and New earth. IMO

:dsunny:

[rrich7]

The revelation I have come to is that when man was created he was created almost like a child. I find it helps to look at it from a father child perspective. Man although being created in the image of God, did not have the wisdom of God & had no understanding of good & evil. Like babies who have to gain knowledge through experience so does man, so as previously stated we are in a process of becoming perfect & coming to the knowledge of truth.
Everything works according to Gods will & person, He uses men for vessels of good or evil ultimately to his good purpose.

I wouldn't say Pharoah thwarted Gods will because God was the one who hardened his heart, phoraoh did not do so of his own will.

I believe what we experience here is to help us grasp a number of things, what life would be without God, what type of world evil creates & also once God removes our veil & we can see the full truth, everything will make sense, all of our questions answered & we will finally be able to grasp a love so amazing that it doesn't fail, a love that goes through great lengths to make whole & perfect what was once incomplete.

I don't necessarily think free will exists the way we think it to. I don't believe God wants to force anyone to Him & that is the purpose of the blinding of the nations, because once the truth is known who will want to deny it, who would want to turn away from such a love. Seems we all stumble through life searching & I think that spirit that God breathed into us is looking to return to Him & once the carnality is removed nothing will be keeping us from joining our father.

[eaglesway]

I personally do not believe God wills evil to occur- in the sense of wickedness. But then, I dont believe God controls everything like most folks around here do :o)

I believe God is like a river, and you can only swim against the tide for so long, but God allows people to swim against the tide until their ability to do so expires. But God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all.

But then, I believe in free will also. So I believe God is winning all things through His love, Not controlling all things.

So I see UR as the ultimate victory of love over hate, good over evil- the superior demonstration of love at the cross, disarming the principalities and powers and allowing for the swallowing up of death by immortality.

I believe election is by the foreknowledge of God, and beyond the scope of man's understanding.

And i am willing to take the stones and howls for saying so HAHAHA :o)

God does no evil, altho He does create chaos- He commits no wickedness at all.