How exactly does salvation of unbelievers work out?
I mean, I am a seeker of universal salvation, and there is a problem in that I identify automatically with unbelievers. I think so much of how they would be saved that I "forget" my own salvation.
What exactly does salvation mean in Universalism? From what are we saved? If God loves us, there is no wrath, so why is there a need of salvation?
And it strikes me as somewhat absurd to make salvation a legal issue anyway. I mean, picture it, we die and come to God, and suddenly there's a court there. I mean, in my case it does make some sense because I know God, I have my conscience, I have my good and my bad deeds. There is a criminal case, so to speak, for me. But how about muslim Abdullah? Hindu Indira? Apache indian Longspear? African pagan Kwesi? They have not had the law preached to them, so how can their salvation be a legal matter? Apostle Paul argued, apart from the law, sin is dead. If sin is bad, why should we preach a law that only makes us sinners? But without the law, where is the need for salvation?
Should we not better work out a theology of salvation that centers on man's loneliness, his need for something to come after death, his need to live in harmony with God, his need to be delivered from satan and evil spirits, his need to live more in love with other people? Why make it a legal issue, didn't Jesus die to get this out of the way for good?
I mean, I suppose on this forum we are largely all law-abiding people. We haven't killed anyone, we don't steal, we haven't cheated our partner and we don't lie. It's easy for us to assume that we are okay. But how about real criminals in prison, those who killed for money, those who raped a 14 year old or something? How can these people be saved? If we assume that we have it hard with salvation, how about such people who must be ridden with guild?
as far as I can see,Father handled the legality of sin in the flesh with Christ...and it was
a legal court verdict. wrapped all men up in sin and condemned sin in the flesh..of all men.
at that time....the new covenant was also instituted through Jesus Christ..pertaining
to the mercy and Grace judgement given by God at that time...that all menshall bemade
New..through this new covenant..be new creatures..have His law written in their minds and
hearts...and live eternally before Him.
Who will stop him from carrying out His will? Nothing can seperate us from the love
that was shown through Jesus Christ.
I have faith..that just as there is a ministry on earth that draws us to Him,so too,there
is a ministry in heaven...thy will be done..on earth as it is in heaven.......also..that we have
but a token at present of the fullness that is there. That the elect and the angels are
but fellow workers/brother's in this great ministry of Father and Jesus Christ..for the
restoration and building up of Christ's body.
All thy children shall be taught of God....all redeemed men...shall see what they had not seen
hear what they had not heard..while on earth. In regard to the Kingdom of Heaven,Jesus
said...Go tell John that the blind are seeing,the deaf are hearing the lame walking..
this is the Kingdom of Heaven..the administration of restoration done on behalf of man
Jesus doing these things...raising the dead,healing the blind,lame,deaf..casting out
evil spirits.said...... 'I DO ONLY WHAT I BEHOLD MY FATHER DOING" John 5;19
v 21 .....for just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life,even so the son
gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
pray this way...Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven................
No sin is greater than another in my opinion , so while in our mind they are true criminals to God they are just sinners in need of Him.
And we are saved from death ! Saved from the heart rooted in sin (for all have sinned & everyone who claims otherwise deceives himself).
Good question, I can't wait to see other takes on this.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on January 04, 2014, 09:42:37 AM
But how about muslim Abdullah? Hindu Indira? Apache indian Longspear? African pagan Kwesi? They have not had the law preached to them, so how can their salvation be a legal matter?
The law, among other things says that everyone must say Jesus in his/her Saviour. I think nobody is/will be exempt from that law. Neither do I think the "no false gods" law is void and it's find to assume Wodan is the big boss in heaven. Likely there are a few more laws.
They are judged by "little given is little required". So it won't be held against them they never did a Christian prayer or stuff like that. But still they need to acknowledge what I wrote above.
Quote from: rrich7 on January 22, 2014, 06:12:56 PM
No sin is greater than another in my opinion
Who breaks one commandment breaks them all.
But otoh in the OT we find sins and their punishment. The punishments vary greatly. From mild punishment to death by stoning. That looks like all sins aren't equal.
Quote from: rrich7 on January 22, 2014, 06:12:56 PM
No sin is greater than another in my opinion , so while in our mind they are true criminals to God they are just sinners in need of Him.
And we are saved from death ! Saved from the heart rooted in sin (for all have sinned & everyone who claims otherwise deceives himself).
Good question, I can't wait to see other takes on this.
Good question, and awesome answer.
Unbelievers will be saved from SIN, saved from the heart that is against the goodness of God, and transformed into a heart of love, Christ's own heart will be given to them.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on January 04, 2014, 09:42:37 AM
How exactly does salvation of unbelievers work out?
I mean, I am a seeker of universal salvation, and there is a problem in that I identify automatically with unbelievers. I think so much of how they would be saved that I "forget" my own salvation.
What exactly does salvation mean in Universalism? From what are we saved? If God loves us, there is no wrath, so why is there a need of salvation?
I actually explain this in a paper, if you are interested: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
One scripture tells us why there is need of salvation, but many other scriptures follow suit with it.
Matthew 1:20-21
An angel from the Lord came to (Joseph) in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus,
because he will save (sozo - heal) his people from (Greek apo - to separate from) their SIN."
Faith doesn't save anyone of itself. It LEADS to salvation. Here is what actually saves us:
Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled,
shall we be saved through his life!See? Not saved by his death, or by faith only, but through his life. Here is how that works:
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time,
gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
The idea of salvation through the Spirit (his Life) is to break the bond of sin in our minds so that we can also cease to "follow the ways of this world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air...."
Faith LEADS to salvation, but it's his LIFE that does the saving work.
re; saved from the heart that is against the goodness of God" :thumbsup:
brings up the Pharisee's sadducees,lawyers offended of the 'goodness' of God to the sinners of
the people when Jesus declared 'your sins aare forgiven"
reminds of the parable of the workers of the vineyard...the all day workers and the
one hour workers..receiving the same because of his goodness..
calls to my mind where it is written..'hardly anyone would die for a righteous man,perhaps
for a good man"
...and Jesus' declaration..only God is good.
I have been pondering these very things in the spirit this morning...and now I have it
quickened in me even further..by that very sentence in your post.
....it makes me think of God being righteous in condemning sin in all flesh of all men........
but then HIS GOODNESS superceding righteousness through grace/mercy and the giving
freely from His heart undeserved kindness. Surely mercy has triumphed over judgement!
because of His goodness!
O'taste and see that God is good!
anti......we are saved from the wicked one...that hates us and wants to destroy us.
Satan was wrathful,knowing his time is short........
Father,look after them in the world,on account of the evil one..........
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 22, 2014, 06:43:23 PM
Quote from: rrich7 on January 22, 2014, 06:12:56 PM
No sin is greater than another in my opinion
Who breaks one commandment breaks them all.
But otoh in the OT we find sins and their punishment. The punishments vary greatly. From mild punishment to death by stoning. That looks like all sins aren't equal.
Each action has a consequence, I think the punishments are different because people are different. A more severe punishment doesn't necessarily equate to the fact that a greater sin has been committed, but maybe that is the appropriate punishment for the person who committed the sin.
In the same way that not all are good testers in school, some of us may be hands on learners. Take two people who commit the same sin. A light punishment for one may be enough to learn the wrongness of their action while a light punishment for the other has no effect, therefore a greater punishment is necessary (Hard headed people)
Again just my take on it :HeartThrob:
MOD: The Old Testament was rooted in Law & maybe making each sin with a consequence was necessary for
that time, yet & still some were saved from the punishments even then. But who can truly know the heart of God!
2 Cor 2; 5-11 sometimes a rebuke is all that is necessary. by the way...is this talking
about the same offspring of viper that took his father's wife?..whose flesh was handed
over to satan
note[church discipline important as it is,should not be allowed to develope into a form
of graceless rigor in which there is no room for pardon and restoration commentary of which
I agree. same thing correction/discipline/punishment.
carnal christians[babes..fit for milk....it is impossible to tell a servant from a son while both
are young and under tutours..but a son remains in the house for ever and inherits..while a
servant does not]
let them grow togather..in order that you don't uproot the wheat removing the tares...
how is that to be understood?
Tares look alot like wheat. Sometimes wolves look alot like sheep. They grow together, but a harvest will come. I understand this in light of Revelation 22
Revelation 22
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Many folks will say that once you are in the "book of life" (who is Jesus Christ) that you are always there.
Revelation 3
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Romans 8 deals with how Christ will glorify the Sons of God before the world....
Romans 8
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Today there is suffering. Not forever. Someday will be a revealing. And the creation will be delivered from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the children of God, and this includes everyone who said "Lord, Lord" and Christ never knew them and said "Away from me you who work iniquity."
It's not just a rebuke. It's "get away from me."
2 Thess 1
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction (aionios judgment) and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
To come back they must heed the words of the Gospel.
Revelation 22
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
This all happens "on the day that he will come and be glorified in his people" which is the day that Paul said in Romans 8 is what we hope for and do not yet see, and is not a part of the suffering of the present time. On the day that he glorifies himself in his people, he will punish those who gave them trouble by shutting them out from his presence, all those who " who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus"
I have long been saying on this forum that being away from the presence of the Lord is revealed as the fire of Gehenna, because Gehenna is found in our tongue, which is a world of iniquity. The only way out of Gehenna and into the city is through the GATES. And God's people are at the gates telling them to come inside.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on January 04, 2014, 09:42:37 AM
Should we not better work out a theology of salvation that centers on man's loneliness, his need for something to come after death, his need to live in harmony with God, his need to be delivered from satan and evil spirits, his need to live more in love with other people? Why make it a legal issue, didn't Jesus die to get this out of the way for good?
Good point.
When I found my salavation in Christ, I had a great need for understanding. I had a great need for love. I was really as lost as I could be. Nothing was mine. I pretty much did not understand anything.
Can't speak for others but for me, when I found Christ I found healing love for the day, for the moment. I found a friend. The friend has never left. That was some 35 years ago.
I truly don't think much about a future salvation. The salvation for the day has always been enough. I figure the future will take care of itself. I don't fear it. I don't fear it because the God that I know will not be different in the future. The love will be the same. The salvation for the unbeliever is the same salvation for the believer. Union with God.
.
anti and ed...I like the way you guys think! 1 Cor 13;1-13
I can't just take the pleasant words of the NT and leave the harsh ones for other people to deal with. In my opinion, the best way to reach ETers who have Bible knowledge is to explain the scary scriptures and the warnings such that it reconciles the rest of scripture. If the things I am saying are not reconciling scripture, let me know, but I must deal with all the scripture, not just the things that make me feel good.
That is why I talk about fire, and destruction, and the tree with the branches, and the outer darkness, and the "away from me" and "shut out from the presence of the Lord" and the lake of fire, and the Day of the Lord and "they shall not escape" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and how the tongue is a fire, and how it relates to New Jerusalem and all that stuff that scares people. It's there, so you cannot expect me to not talk about it or to pretend that the warnings aren't really warnings. It's not just in my Bible, it's in your Bibles too. It must be dealt with.
That might be annoying to some people, and might make you feel "pukey" but all I am doing is explaining what I see and how I believe it reconciles scripture. :HeartThrob:
fine,as long as we realize the harsh words directed to the offspring of viper were the religious
leaders of the day..who had not the love of God in them,or they would have loved Jesus...
and fine as long as we admit that those who did not enter into the kingdom,and sought to
prevent other's from entering into the Kingdom[or city] were these same ones..and that it
was these very ones whose house/temple was destroyed by fire.
and as long as we receive the knowledge that these received a heavier judgement
and also that we realize these same ones said that it was by the means of Bezelbub that
Jesus Christ cast out evil spirits. and as long as we realize these are brought in last,so
remain outside gnashing their teeth..the longest..and the harlots and sinners enter ahead of
them into the kingdom[Holy city]
and also that these very same religious leaders that outwardly appear as white-washed
graves but inside are full of dead men's bones....by all mean's we should declare these
'scary scriptures' to them. think they might get annoyed?
Quote from: sheila on January 22, 2014, 11:21:13 PM
fine,as long as we realize the harsh words directed to the offspring of viper were the religious
leaders of the day..who had not the love of God in them,or they would have loved Jesus...
and fine as long as we admit that those who did not enter into the kingdom,and sought to
prevent other's from entering into the Kingdom[or city] were these same ones..and that it
was these very ones whose house/temple was destroyed by fire.
and as long as we receive the knowledge that these received a heavier judgement
and also that we realize these same ones said that it was by the means of Bezelbub that
Jesus Christ cast out evil spirits. and as long as we realize these are brought in last,so
remain outside gnashing their teeth..the longest..and the harlots and sinners enter ahead of
them into the kingdom[Holy city]
and also that these very same religious leaders that outwardly appear as white-washed
graves but inside are full of dead men's bones....by all mean's we should declare these
'scary scriptures' to them. think they might get annoyed?
I have no problem with that. Sure, they'll get annoyed. Annoyance is what happens.
I do also need to explain it to people who ask me, who come to me and say, "if hell is not real, then what about gehenna? and what about the LOF?" and allllllll the questions I get about all the scary scriptures. They come up, so I seek to explain as best as I know how.
BTW, I am not saying we should all go out and say FIRE! FIRE! FIRE! like Beavis. But when the question comes up, I don't want people to be afraid of physical fire. On the other hand, I have to acknowledge the warnings. The biggest thing most ETers are afraid of is that the fire is physical. Physical fire hurts and is torture.
When you say "the tongue is a fire" well, that helps, but that's not the end of the story. But at least it's proof that they don't have to be afraid of GOD, but be watchful of THEMSELVES. To me, I believe that is a positive message when people ask about the so-called "hellfire" scriptures.
The OP says
Quote"Should we not better work out a theology of salvation that centers on man's loneliness
To me, working out a theology should be done by understanding the theology that was given to the Apostles is already worked out. It's there, worked out for us, but obviously misunderstood in ET. I believe the theology already does center on man's loneliness, but really it centers on man's sin, and how man's sin causes his own loneliness.
Ok, so the word "sin" can come across as accusatory. How about "missing the mark." Either way, I think we need to face facts that the problem is with US, within us, and if that sounds accusatory, what can I do? If Jesus says that the branches in him which bear no fruit will be cut off and burned, what can I do? I have to acknowledge it and come to an understanding about it which reconciles with the rest of the Gospel.
In my opinion, we are not in charge of working out the theology, because the NT has already worked it out, and its central focus is already determined by God. We need to work out how we understand it and see if our understanding is consistent with all scripture. I am not concerned with whether my understanding offends people, only whether I am correct or incorrect insofar as how the scripture resolves with itself. If I am incorrect, the scripture should clearly show it.