salvation through faith or through jesus

[anti_nietzsche]

I think there is a danger in the christian religion to make salvation entirely dependent on faith as opposed to seeing it accomplished by Jesus. Because, in the end when we believe in a kind of bargain of swapping faith for salvation, then faith becomes a self righteousness. And yet faith is important according to Paul.

Why is that so? Because faith is a transparent thing, it does not look on itself but looks at the one who saves. That's how it is offered to man to have faith in God, in Jesus, and in the Holy Spirit, not because faith saves but because God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit save us. Jesus is known as the Savior of mankind, and that is why we must have a christocentric theology.

It should highlight Jesus and his cross, and not our ability to belief. Because, Paul writes that faith is a gift, and God cannot make the salvation of sinful men depend on a gift that He Himself must give. Furthermore, there are and have been many people who simply could not put their faith in God.

Consider babies, coma patients, mentally disableds, very sick people, those who lived before Christ was revealed and those whom the missionaries could only reach much later, for example the Aborigines and the american Indians. If salvation would depend on faith, none of these people could have been reached yet Jesus knew them and forgave them too on the cross.

That is also how we can understand that those words of Jesus in the New Testament that seem to indicate a genuine wrath of God are targetted at the then-current jewish system. Everything that is apocalyptical and damnative in the New Testament ends when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. And it was only the system that got condemned by God in that way, not the individual jewish people. If they had practiced more love and mercy and faith, then the Romans would not have attacked them because the Jews wouldn't have rebelled.

God is love, that is the christian message, so if we serve love we stay in God. Consequently, Paul puts love over faith and hope. And apostle John writes that those who love are born of God and know him. Now if we believe in love, we cannot believe in condemnation and know God in a wholly different way than the Jews normally knew him. And God desires to spread his tent of love over each of us.

Faith is desired, because when we have faith then God is real to us and we can develop a better righteousness than the righteousness of the law. It would be a righteousness of faith in faith, a faith that recognizes Jesus' faith. For Jesus himself, the son of God, was limited while on Earth and while he was powerful (in dependence on his father), he was then not almighty. So Jesus himself had to trust his father much and knew in that way the experience of being a human and decided to accept God's command for him to sacrifice himself. If Jesus wouldn't have had to put belief in God, he wouldn't have had lived out the human life fully.

But again, if faith itself were the primary then it would be a bargain and it wouldn't be about grace. As it is, faith points to someone else than ourselves and that's how salvation again comes to be by grace. And so that everyone can be saved, salvation is fastened to God's thoughts, doings, the cross, his love and mercy.

[jabcat]

The Holy Spirit draws..we respond.  God gives us faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  It's His gift, but it's active.  It brings the individual, personal new birth.  New creation, when the old things pass away and the new comes.  The crossing of death to Life.

[anti_nietzsche]

Yes, but the getting of faith can also happen in Heaven in the afterlife if someone hardens himself to God in this life. God is love and as such he can love someone even when this person does not love him back. God has done so always and the Jews hadn't known it, that's why Jesus came.

[Seth]

I have to disagree though that all wrath in the NT is directed at the old Jewish system. Jesus provided many warnings directly to his believing disciples. In fact I believe there are many references to Christians in the parables. Plus, there are many warnings directly to believers who become wolves in sheeps clothing (Romans 2, 1 Cor 3, 2 Peter 2 and 3, Hebrews 6, James 1 and 2).

"There will be many who come to me and say, Lord Lord look at all the miracles we did in your name, and I will tell them, I never knew you, away from me, ye who work iniquity."

Thats not a warning to Jewish unbelievers.

To me, this is a matter of what salvation is. Sozo means healing. Some get healed then they get hardened and go back to what they were saved from, sin. Faith got them the Holy Spirit unto healing but if they discontinue walking by the Spirit, then faith is not brought to completion and dies, according to Apostle James.

[jabcat]

Yes, but the getting of faith can also happen in Heaven in the afterlife if someone hardens himself to God in this life. God is love and as such he can love someone even when this person does not love him back. God has done so always and the Jews hadn't known it, that's why Jesus came.

I agree most won't be given faith to believe on and confess Jesus as Lord until the next age.  This age, the elect/pre-destined.  Next age, the destined - through aionios kolassis (each according to his need).   :2c:

[jabcat]

discontinue walking by the Spirit

I agree there are carnal believers - in many varying degrees (God knows the heart) - who are children of God but will suffer loss of rewards and be saved only "as through fire".  (I think there may be also loss of "position of service" in the next age in the kingdom, but I'm less sure about that one...just a theory/thought).  :)

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[Seth]

I think the prodigal son is a good model at least for my own understanding.

Still a son. Still related. But he lost closeness with his father and the position he had in his father's house because of his own desire. Position in that house had a low priority for him at time of immaturity. But he didn't lose his father's love. He never lost that. Everything was still there when he returned.

[jabcat]

I think the prodigal son is a good model at least for my own understanding.

Still a son. Still related. But he lost closeness with his father and the position he had in his father's house because of his own desire. Position in that house had a low priority for him at time of immaturity. But he didn't lose his father's love. He never lost that. Everything was still there when he returned.

:thumbsup:

[darryl]

Yes, but the getting of faith can also happen in Heaven in the afterlife if someone hardens himself to God in this life. God is love and as such he can love someone even when this person does not love him back. God has done so always and the Jews hadn't known it, that's why Jesus came.

sure hope so..that's what we're banking on...that the countless people who disbelieve wont be punished or lost forever.

[rosered]

Yes, but the getting of faith can also happen in Heaven in the afterlife if someone hardens himself to God in this life. God is love and as such he can love someone even when this person does not love him back. God has done so always and the Jews hadn't known it, that's why Jesus came.

sure hope so..that's what we're banking on...that the countless people who disbelieve wont be punished or lost forever.

:thumbsup:

I keep this ''thought  in my heart at all times ''      to help  be strong  , when I become so weak  brothers , just as Paul understood the weakness of   his own flesh

and  knowing His spirit was also willing and being kept alive by Jesus Christ  , though he died daily .
  it is the   experience Paul  speaks of   being in the paradise of God that  3rd heaven  and it was not lawful for a man to utter or — that he was caught up into Paradise, and he heard inexpressible words, not being permitted to man to speak.

And the Lord assured him     that Gods grace was  perfect   and still  covering him    , even when he felt  defeated  and corruptible   ,  Gods seed would grow  in truth and grace  as God permitted   , I do believe the rising   in Christ     and the special anointing  by Gods Spirit  for the Son  ,  is above the law of sin and death
and is the  footstool    that all his enemies,   being the earth itself   are planted in  corruption  ,  will rise in incorruption  and glorify God  .

  The planting is of the Lord , How can God fail ?    not ever  , after reading 1 Cor 15 yesterday    with   fresh eyes  , I saw things  that  I had missed before ..
  Funny  how that works   on us  as we get stronger in  His  WORD when led by the Spirit  and prompted   to do so  , He  gives the confidence to trust  and  boldness   to  speak   about it ,   I LOVE HIS WAYS      :HeartThrob:

[anti_nietzsche]

God's footstool is love. If there is no love for Him and, according to Jesus in the same way, in us for each other, then we have failed. It's only satan's and the demon's hatred that keeps us so down. Just today they attacked me again for believing in UR. But I have the flesh and blood of Jesus in me so I can stay calm. God won't give us more than we can handle and he has armies of angels at his disposal.

[rosered]

God's footstool is love. If there is no love for Him and, according to Jesus in the same way, in us for each other, then we have failed. It's only satan's and the demon's hatred that keeps us so down. Just today they attacked me again for believing in UR. But I have the flesh and blood of Jesus in me so I can stay calm. God won't give us more than we can handle and he has armies of angels at his disposal.

  Yes   you are right it is all about LOVE winning the enemies over and making them all  sit at His feet ...

I will show you    in His Word how I come   to believe that the enemies are in the earth and are Gods  footstool  . Gods judgments are in the earth , His Word is in their hearts   and will   make his enemies   be at peace   proverbs 16 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.


Heaven is My Throne
1Thus says the LORD, "Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest? 2"For My hand made all these things,

Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word....41Then Jesus declared, "How can it be said that the Christ is the Son of David?

42For David himself says in the book of Psalms:

'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand
43until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet."'
44So if David calls Him Lord, how can He be David's son?"

[Dandelion]

Hi anti-nietzche.

For me, faith and Jesus is symonomous. If we think of Jesus, we must have faith that He is God's son and lived and died for us, to save us.

To know Jesus, for me, is to believe in who He truly is, what His reason for coming was, and what His life and death accomplished, for us all.

So, I cannot see Jesus without faith, and faith without Jesus, for He is the reason for my faith. 

D.

[anti_nietzsche]

To preserve love and faith we must not be so zealous in spiritual matters. Paul writes that love is not zealous. Sometimes I understand that, sometimes I fall back into zeal. But lately I find more and more that this is a legacy of the Israelite system, what they were clinging to when things got difficult. We must therefor have an enlightened faith, and not the way of faith of the Israelites, except David, Solomo, etc. In the old testament there are also psalms that speak about repentance. Means even our icons were not perfect. Jesus was the only one fully righteous. He had to put faith in God too. Righteousness can only come by faith, but then faith itself says, to quote the Epistle of Timothy, that love is the main sum of instruction. Sometimes we are careless and underestimate love, and I know you know that. Paul argued even that prophetic speaking would cease while love remained. And in that I have peace, because when love remains and is at the top of our aspirations, then the other virtues all follow. In different ways for different people maybe, but they follow. God bless you all and keep you close!