Hi everyone,
Romans 5:18-19 (NRSV): Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. For just as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Some proponents of ET claim that Paul says "all" in verse 18 to state that salvation has been "given" to all men, but that not all men will exercise their free will to receive it by faith to be saved, so only "the many" will be made righteous. However, I think that the definite article before many in both places in v. 19 indicates that all who were made sinners will be made righteous. But, still, why doesn't Paul use "all" in verse 19?
I have recently developed a tentative opinion on this. I think that Paul is drawing a distinction between two kinds of Adam's descendants. He states that there was "condemnation for all." Earlier in the chapter he wrote that "Just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned." So, nobody escapes the consequences (condemnation) brought about by Adam's transgression. However, not all of Adam's descendants went down in history as sinful men. Even though none were perfect, some generally oriented their lives toward righteousness. Thus, Paul says that "the many" rather than "all" were made sinners. And the same many who lived sinful lives will be made righteous because of Christ's obedience.
What do you think about this,
Samuel
Variation #1
Verse 18 is simple. All are made righteous. Because the Bible doesn't contradict the many in verse 19 simply means all.
Variation #2
Verse 18 claims all people were made sinners. Jesus wasn't a sinner. So all is not 100%. It's believers only
Verse 19 just says there are many believers.
Variation #3
Both verses define groups. The groups don't change within the verse. So if all a doomed all are saved. If some are doomed then some are saved. Those that were not doomed don't need to be saved.
Knoch's commentary.
18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (1Cor 15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.
19 The contrast here is between one and many, not between the many and the all of the previous statement. The many here are the all of verse eighteen.
The verses are about contrast. One person has a negative impact on many. But one person also has a positive impact on many.
Because of it's clear/widely accepted that Adam sinned and automatically everyone else was doomed, it's also reaonbly to assume the contrast implied here is that because of Jesus' sinlessness automatically every is saved.
The KJV translation doesn't seem accurate to me. First a few different translations:
18 Hence then, as through one fault, [the sentence was] unto all men unto condemnation, so, also, through one recovery of righteousness, [the decree of favour] is unto all men for righteous acquittal unto life;
18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
18 So then, as through an offense of one man was for condemnation for all men, so also through a righteousness of one man was for justification of life for all men.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
18 So then, as the effect of one act of wrongdoing was that punishment came on all men, even so the effect of one act of righteousness was righteousness of life for all men.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
18 Therefore, just as through the offense of one, all men fell under condemnation, so also through the justice of one, all men fall under justification unto life.
18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.
18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life.
18 Thus as through one downfall all humanity is unto condemnation; even thus through one justification all humanity is unto justification of life.
18 Therefore as by the offence of through one judgment came upon downfall to all men humanity is to condemnation; even so thus by the righteousness of through one the free gift justification came upon all men to all humanity is unto justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
18 Therefore, in the same manner that by the iniquity of one [guilt came] upon all men unto condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one, [grace came] upon all men unto justification of life.
18 Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 As then through one trespass all men have come under condemnation, so through one act of righteousness all obtain the gift of righteousness unto life.
18 The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. The result of righteousness was justification acquittal, which brings life for all men.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
18 Therefore as by the fall of one for all men to condemnation; so also by the justification of one for all men to justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
Many translations show that life/justification was declared/forced upon.
That aligns perfectly with the following verse: Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
God wasn't begging for someone to accept it. He simply declared it. Even, especially, on the ungodly. If verse 5 declared ungodly rightous it would be silly to assume verses 18 and 19 are about believers only.
The Greek in verse requires a lot of 'adding' to translate it to English.
Rom 5 [KJVCNT]
18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The red words are both translated from the same Greek word.
εἰς
eis
Thayer Definition:
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: a primary preposition
Citing in TDNT: 2:420, 211
My :2c: conclusion.
Whatever the number of doomed people, those very same doomed people are made/declared rightous. No conditions of any kind. Love your enemy.
Quote from: Graph1159 on September 16, 2013, 09:09:25 PM
Hi everyone,
Romans 5:18-19 (NRSV): Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. For just as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Some proponents of ET claim that Paul says "all" in verse 18 to state that salvation has been "given" to all men, but that not all men will exercise their free will to receive it by faith to be saved, so only "the many" will be made righteous. However, I think that the definite article before many in both places in v. 19 indicates that all who were made sinners will be made righteous. But, still, why doesn't Paul use "all" in verse 19?
I have recently developed a tentative opinion on this. I think that Paul is drawing a distinction between two kinds of Adam's descendants. He states that there was "condemnation for all." Earlier in the chapter he wrote that "Just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned." So, nobody escapes the consequences (condemnation) brought about by Adam's transgression. However, not all of Adam's descendants went down in history as sinful men. Even though none were perfect, some generally oriented their lives toward righteousness. Thus, Paul says that "the many" rather than "all" were made sinners. And the same many who lived sinful lives will be made righteous because of Christ's obedience.
What do you think about this,
Samuel
"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)
"18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (lCor.15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.
19 The contrast here is between one and many, not between the many and the all of the previous statement. The many here are the all of verse eighteen." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 235)
I see WW already quoted the Concordant Commentary. I'm sorry for the redundancy. I'm multitasking today.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 16, 2013, 10:13:34 PM
The Greek in verse requires a lot of 'adding' to translate it to English.
Rom 5 [KJVCNT]
18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The red words are both translated from the same Greek word.
εἰς
eis
Thayer Definition:
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: a primary preposition
Citing in TDNT: 2:420, 211
Hi Whitewings,
Thank you for your detailed response. There is a lot of good information there. I am curious about the King James's past tense phrase "the free gift came upon all men." Some other translations put it in the present tense. The definition you quoted from the concordance indicated that the phrase had a preposition instead of a verb. Do you know if that preposition is generally supposed to make us look to the past, present, or future, or is it transcendent of such tenses?
QuoteDo you know
I would prefer you leave the word "know" out :winkgrin:
I understand the verse as:
- Adam made a mistake 6000 years ago and since that moment all suffer from that mistake. So it happened in the distant past but the result is ongoing until this very day
- About 2000 years ago Jesus' perfect life changed what Adam did.
The tense in that verse is (even) more complex.
a] Jesus did His saving work 2000 years ago (past tense)
b] Right now He still saves in present tense.
c] He will keep saving into the future.
d] He continually kept saving 2000 years ago until now.
e] He saved back into time. 2000-6000 years ago.
So both tenses (Adam, Jesus) are covering whole human history.
To complicate things I think there isn't a verb in that verse....
Then theology creeps in.
How does Jesus save?
a] He is still actively offering the gift of life in present tense.
b] It was really done 2000 years ago. The life of Jesus undid the effect of Adam's sin. So it was a one time work into the past of which the effect covers whole human history.
Viewing it that way the tense isn't important at all because the gift of life is present exactly when needed.