In Rev 1:18 there is a phrase that we have probably seen in other verses-εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων which by English translations is forever,everlasting or forevermore but the literal meaning is in/into the ages of the ages. So IYHO which would be the better translation forevermore or in/into the ages of the ages?
Here is the English transltion-and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
into the ages of the ages, or, you could look at it like "olam olam" (aionios is Greek for olam like Hades is greek for sheol)which was frequently doubled in the OT hebrew to mean something like forever, or beyond the horizon- unknowable immensity- beyond limit
Quote from: eaglesway on May 02, 2018, 07:29:37 AM
into the ages of the ages, or, you could look at it like "olam olam" (aionios is Greek for olam like Hades is greek for sheol)which was frequently doubled in the OT hebrew to mean something like forever, or beyond the horizon- unknowable immensity- beyond limit
The reason why I ask is that I was having a discussion with another universalist on facebook and he brought up this and said it means endless because εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων is referring to Christ resurrection and current immortal life and if it means ages of the ages he thinks that if the ages end that Christ's life must also end.
QuoteThe reason why I ask is that I was having a discussion with another universalist on facebook and he brought up this and said it means endless because εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων is referring to Christ resurrection and current immortal life and if it means ages of the ages he thinks that if the ages end that Christ's life must also end.
I think this is the same with the idea of age-abiding life versus age-abiding punishment. Here's kind of my view of it:
Let's say I run a farmers market, and I have 100 apples to sell. I take 43 of those apples, and put them on the actual display table. It could be argued I have a portion of the apples: I have the apples of the apples.
That doesn't mean that I have all of the apples on the table. If I only had 2 apples, I couldn't say I have the apple of the apples. It would require 1 apple to say that.
So the way I see it is that the first set of ages doesn't necessarily mean it's equal to the second set of ages just like my set of apples isn't equivalent to my full set.
There's more than one age in the first set to both uses, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are equivalent. Just like age-abiding life isn't necessarily the same length as age-abiding punishment. An age could be 3 days (Jonah) or 1000 years (Millennial Reign). Age-abiding life could be eternal, if that's how long the age it abides by is, just as the ages of the ages for "the smoke of their torment" could be 2 ages out of 100, while the ages of the ages of Christs reign could be an infinite amount out of an infinite amount. Someone else correct me if I'm off :) :dsunny:
Oh! I wanted to add: I read something on Tentmaker about how just being God is described as the God of the ages doesn't mean that if the ages end He has to stop being God either. God was God before the ages and will be after the ages, so there's also that reminder.
I personally believe this will always be an issue, and technically, it is a valid one. IMO aion should be viewd through a thorough study of olam. IMO until a person understands olam they cannot fully understand aion. If aion is seen as a continuation of the thought(logos-expressed thought) in the Hebrew(olam), which was spoken by all the prophets then it comes into clearer focus. Olam occurs around 454 times in the OT.
It means an indeterminate time, unknowable, beyond the horizon. If one studies all the occurences, one begins to see that olam is always defined in connection with the subject it applies to, which can mean the length of a slaves life(Deut. 15:17), the far distant past(Gen 6:4); the far distant future as follows in this definition from Ancient-Hebrew.org-
The Hebrew word olam literally means "beyond the horizon." When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. ... The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive.
Hebrew Word Definitions - Eternity
www.ancient-hebrew.org/vocabulary_definitions_eternity.html (http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/vocabulary_definitions_eternity.html)
As olam does not always mean eternity, so also aion does not always mean eternity. personally, I think "the age of the ages" means the eternal age, when God has become all in all, and there are no more adversaries, all have been gathered into one in Christ(EPh 1:9-11), and death has been nullified(1 Cor 15:23-28).
As olam sometimes means a specific period of inexact dimensions(Gen6:4), so also aion sometimes means a specific time(like a future age or distant past age) with inexact dimensions. I think aionios pyr means "the fire of the world/age to come"- and we know there are world/ages yet to be through Paul (eph 2:7).
Olam was often translated "world" because distant times were seen in the context of the "world" of that time. That is why in Hebrews 1 the KJV translates aion as "through whom He created the worlds" rather than "through whom He created the ages".
Today, in Hebrew, "olam ha-ba" still means "the world to come" to many Jews- altho it also automatically incorporates the concept of a future age.
This is an excerpt from Encyclopedia Britannica:
ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: "the world to come") in Jewish theology, either "the world after death" or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 BC–AD 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.
Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze ("this world"). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in "the world to come."
Here is the link https://www.britannica.com/topic/olam-ha-ba (https://www.britannica.com/topic/olam-ha-ba)
Here is a link with more detail from the Jewish Virtual Library
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/olam-ha-ba (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/olam-ha-ba)
I am not presenting these as theological authorities so much as to make it clear this is not some totally unfounded opinion of mine.
There are many other sources that lend weight to this view, but you wont get many of those on universalist sites because so many are so hung up in the Greek view of aion as their bedrock authority, which I personally think is a weaker place to draw that line- imo it is much more fundamentally established by the Hebrew thought in the scriptures of the prophets, which is God's "expressed thought"(logos)- "olam".
Romans 16:
25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
Of course, a person who cannot see the salvation of all through the context of the many verses that describe it, is unlikely to be convinced by translation issues unless the Lord has begun to open their heart :o)
Love this John :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :goodpost:
Like the wheels within the wheels when the Spirit moves in the living beings Ekek 1
15Now as I looked at the living beings, behold, there was one wheel on the earth beside the living beings, for each of the four of them. 16The appearance of the wheels and their workmanship was like sparkling beryl, and all four of them had the same form, their appearance and workmanship being as if one wheel were within another.
17Whenever they moved, they moved in any of their four directions without turning as they moved.
18As for their rims they were lofty and awesome, and the rims of all four of them were full of eyes round about.
19Whenever the living beings moved, the wheels moved with them. And whenever the living beings rose from the earth, the wheels rose also.
20Wherever the spirit was about to go, they would go in that direction. And the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.
21Whenever those went, these went; and whenever those stood still, these stood still. And whenever those rose from the earth, the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.
That moment when you get it is somthing far more greater at work that you can possibly imagine it to be and has every tiny speck completely covered thought out and dealt with with no exceptions :dsunny:
Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God :banana:
:2c:a different perspective on it for your consideration.The aramaic "dar" for'generation"is also'age". I reckon it with the beast that was,is not,yetis;because of the sheet
that come down from heaven showing men as beast[various states of ignorance ]..to be killed and then return back up into heaven.We also know no-one who takes the
mark of the beast can live[thus is dead] and if abeast but touch the mountain he dies. The king of Babylon was also given the mind of a beast..as'times/ages passed.
the dividing of those times give us 3 times and half a time...and I believe correlates with Abraham,Isaac and Jacob..with Josephs double /sons Jacob/divided namechange
untoIsrael.
thus the dividing off of men from carnal/beast/flesh[frombelow] mind unto spiritual mind/understanding as sons from above
.
Thus,as all sowing inthe earth of men continues..there is the beast that was..isnot..yet is...through the successive generations as men finish the great circuit and rise backup
[the wheels[4] red yellow/black/white Hu[e]mans.] with the rainbow as Josephs coat of many colours.
He liken his judgement as unto a circle..and He himself teaches us using an evil contrast..through both positive and negative...He is educating His sons and daughters....
to give them understanding..for it was the mind of a beast[serpent most subtil] that killed them in their ignorance[Eve seduced]
Quote from: JamesH on May 03, 2018, 04:45:52 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 02, 2018, 07:29:37 AM
into the ages of the ages, or, you could look at it like "olam olam" (aionios is Greek for olam like Hades is greek for sheol)which was frequently doubled in the OT hebrew to mean something like forever, or beyond the horizon- unknowable immensity- beyond limit
The reason why I ask is that I was having a discussion with another universalist on facebook and he brought up this and said it means endless because εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων is referring to Christ resurrection and current immortal life and if it means ages of the ages he thinks that if the ages end that Christ's life must also end.
Here is the other scriptures that refute that claim , Christs life never ends after the cross , to take away the power of satan , I cannot understand how folks believe so different when it comes to eternal , For GOD HIMSELF is only eternal without end and beginning [hebrews 7 ;16 indestructible / incorruptible life ]
Proverbs 8 tells us He was with GOD ALWAYS and come in a body prepared for him [Wisdom of God ] because it was the openly showing us all that believe the power of God in His Wisdom though the Lord Jesus CHRIST A Living Word that is totally incorruptible and cannot be destroyed by anything or anyone , as we are take up our cross and know the same power of God working in and though us believers .
1 Cor 1 ;24...23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength....
1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.
Job 38:17
"Have the gates of death been revealed to you, Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will descend to Hades! For if the miracles that were performed in you had happened in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Luke 24:5
As the women bowed their faces to the ground in terror, the two men asked them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead?
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead,
He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him.Romans 14:9
For this reason Christ died
and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.Revelation 2:8
To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of the First and the Last,
who died and returned to life.Revelation 3:7
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open.
making an open show on his cross , those things have been hidden from all the past ages/peoples nations , lives completely and now we SEE JESUS showing us now the way it has been done hidden all along ,,,,,and those whom believe it :2c: know this much
Col 2 13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,
14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath.
17These are
a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts
it belongs to Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind,
19
and he loses connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.The Head and authority is connected to the Body of Christ and is holding everything in place as to all the living and the dead now :2c: , everything that exists in and though and by are for Him , the end will be JESUS CHRIST subjected as total and complete
the LIVING WORD OF GOD to the eternal SPIRIT not void but perfected /completed TRUTH that All in all will rejoice in and glorify with as true worshippers in the Spirit & truth . John 4 ...22
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
They had the WORD of salvation all along !! but misused it with the wrong spirit /death not life , for our own good till the fulness of the gentiles [ all nations ] come into CHRIST
23 But a time is coming and
has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.
24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth."...
1 Col 1 The Supremacy of Christ
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together....
Nehemiah 9:6
"You alone are the LORD. You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them. You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.
John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.Ephesians 1:10
as a plan for the fullness of time,
to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.Ephesians 1:20
which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead
and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms,Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age,
but also in the one to come.Colossians 1:20
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.
This is what was quickened in me by these scriptures / WORD of Life to believe in , by the Spirit of Life and changed my mind and repented of those dead works that could never bring true salvation to my own soul though will/desire worshipping the unknown God ... it was faith given by God as an incorruptible substance to start the whole born again experience though the Word and Spirit of life working within and changing every thought that holds captive prisoners to sin & death nature of this world and age as temporary by GODS own mercy and wisdom and design and trust Him though it all :2c: