Questions on first epistle of timothy

[Andrew]

timothy 2'4

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"

This is how my king james bible translate it - is that accurate? I always thought it was God's will to save all men rather than "will have all men to be saved". If this is correct then it is got be the best example of UR thought.


also timothy 4'10

"because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, specially of those that believe"

I was wondering how an et believer who look at this verse and all I could come up with is that they would say that Jesus is the savior of all men but especially those who believe because they will actually get saved where non-believers it's more like Jesus was their savior but they didn't receive Him -if that makes any sense...                 

[rosered]

  Hi Andrew  ,

  Great scriptures , but when you read the other scriptures  , it becomes  confusing .
  Only the Holy Spirit can guide us into all truth for it is the Spirit of truth and the true teacher Jesus gave us as a  true witness  to bear witness in our conscience  that unshakable  foundation  , based on the faith works of Jesus Christ  gift of Himself to all mankind
  I believe it is like the seed parable  ,   some it takes root and grows ,  they rejoice for a moment and than   the cares of this life choke out the WORD / seed of God /Life and  some it is the birds of the air   that devour it as soon as it is  placed in the heart/  readied  place .  , sometimes it is Gods timing and not our own  order  of  spiritual growth  in truth and grace  , it is Gods own choosing  for His reasons  alone .

  We can only  pray to Him for   the good will of everyman /mankind and the  living things /spiritual beings  even  such as animals and   plant life .
  everything that pertains to Life itself .

bless your searching for His truth

[sheila]

 :2c:....they may use that reasoning.those with the old covenant..law/works based righteousness mindset..often prefer the oldwine

over thenew-free-gift..especially those who believe...in the new covenat-grace faith in Jesus. Just as those set aside under the old

law covenant that were unable to receive Christ's new covenant,so,too,we find many in christendom unable to accept the fullness

of Christ-ALL...the third measure 100orwhole of the leavening of Christ Kingdom hidden in the  three measures of flour..Manna from

heaven of the bread of life eternal unto all men.Johnthe Baptist...I must keep ondecreasing[condemnation under law covenant..and

Christ must go on increasing[grace] unto His fullness[ALL men to be raised up in His image]I guess there are 'measures'of faith..with it's

accompanying 'fruit"=30fold/60 fold/100fold     

[sheila]

Abraham BELIEVED  GOD...AND IT WAS ACCOUNTEDUNTO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNES.   


Romans3;3  WHAT IF some did not have faith?  Will their lack of faith nullify  GOD'S FAITHFULNESS?

    NOT AT ALL!!!

      LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.    as it is written;

    'So that you may be proved right when you speak...and prevail when you judge"


     Father's direct words...... Isaaih 57;16, Jeremiah 31;34,Isaaih 43;25-27,Isaaih 48;9


     Jesus words.... Psalms40;7,Hosea 13;14,John 10;28,John 12;32,Romans4;3 and Luke 18;8


    Are God's words and Jesus words out of their mouth idle? :2c:

[Dandelion]

2 I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. 2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 5 For,

There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 6 He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone.

This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time. 7 And I have been chosen as a preacher and apostle to teach the Gentiles this message about faith and truth. I'm not exaggerating—just telling the truth.

1 Timothy 2:1-7

This passage clearly states that God desires everyone to be saved, and that He gave His life for the freedom of everyone.

But, I can just hear some of the people I know saying, " But they have free will and chose not to be saved."

For which we need other Bible verses to back us up.     :gimmefive:

D.

[sheila]

 :2c:man's will,free will,satan's will and God's.  The law of sin and love's fulfilling the law of love. These have been such a stumbling stone.

Jesus led 'captivity'captive.those captive of the devil/liar in 'sin-works' God having the power to cause us to'will and do" His pleasure.


      Paul's struggle..agreeing the law of love is good,yet struggling against sin's law in his flesh.go to do good and evil present.

free is not under compulsion/coercion or influence of another.   The glorious liberty of the sons of God is the  freedom to live in accord

with their divine spirit nature..which is the same as Jesus and the Father..unhindered.Thus we struggle against'powers'and'principalities"

-sin's law-which equals corruption/death[turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh,that the spirit may be saved[divine

nature[of spirit] in the image of God]on the day of the Lord.

Love me of your own free will..ye that love Hosea 14;4I will heal their waywardness and love them freely.


  not to start debate on freewill..but the above was just opened unto me...and thought it may be beneficial for other's too...and

they may consider it. :2c:

[rosered]

But, I can just hear some of the people I know saying, " But they have free will and chose not to be saved."

:iagree:

Romans 6:23 NLT
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.


  The free gift of eternal life  is not free if it comes with  conditions ?
  Most argue , but you have to obey   Jesus Voice  in order to  receive eternal life though Him .
I tell you no man can be saved of his own  doings , none nada , zilch. zero , big fat no  not going to happen ever .

Its letting go of the notion you can gain Jesus Christ  though your own works  and sacrifices  and own style of belief .
  When Jesus come to the world as a human  being in  a flesh   body prepared for    HIM   BY GOD HIMSELF , He raised the bar , the    STANDARD

  is impossible for man to keep all the law .. why do I say this  , scriptures tell us this is the truth
  If  you break just one law you broke them all .  James 2 ;10 10 Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

But if we stumble 7 times God is able to make us stand [in the truth ] proving HIS POINT . Our salvation depends on GOD ALONE  THOUGH  JESUS CHRIST .

  This is an impossible standard for anyone  to keep of themselves , but what is impossible for man  IS POSSIBLE WITH GOD

Luke 18:27 that Jesus, referring to salvation, told those who questioned him that what is impossible for man is possible with God. ... But what is impossible for man is made possible with God  .

But JESUS CHRIST EVERYTHING IMPOSSIBLE MADE POSSIBLE by Him FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM  EVERYTHING IS MADE AND EXIST !! Colossians  1 and 2


The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

We start as little beggars  at the gate , not thieves or robbers  and destroyers , but beggars    lazarus= whom God helps 
I looked up  the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom  matt 5  [ poor means begarly or destitute ]

Asking the HOLY SPIRIT for help to become what we need to be to please GOD  by faith , that granted  substance
  we have to build upon , by Gods  unmerited favor and  grace , the works of faith save us , even that substance is of Christ , when   you realize  HE ALONE is the giver of LIFE    and everything is by Him and for Him and though Him  , that is quite an impact   when you think on this for a moment   , there is no other source of substance of power or strength or   faith or might ,   hope or love   given to us unless it is given  from ABOVE !

This is what convinced me of the Universal Reconciliation  , GOD WILL accomplish His desire   , It is not Gods will that any perish   but come to repentance  , is to change our minds from the carnal  and all the worldly and fleshy desires to  GODS own heart  ,  a mind of Christ  an obedient    to being able to want to be corrected   and feel  genuine sadness for doing evil and  comforted when we are trying to please Him  with a new heart and  mind   He gives us to work with  born out of   the HOLY SPIRIT .


   2 Peter 3 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

  EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess  HIM  , IN GODS TIMING not ours

   Romans 14 The Law of Liberty
...10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God." 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God....

Isaiah 45:23
By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will confess allegiance.

Philippians 2:9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place

and gave Him the name above all names,

10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.


  the Glory of God  and knowing He is saving everyone is my joy and peace that surpasses all understanding  , by HIS GREAT  LOVE  for His  new creation  being made new by in and though and for  JESUS CHRIST  the victory    song in my own heart

it is what God gives   all we can do is share in this hope and keep it alive ..

 

[jugghead]

IMO, if God chooses to save someone, the person being saved has no choice in the matter, why do I say this?

Jesus Himself choose to raise Lazarus from the dead, did Lazarus have the choice to be raised?

The same with the little girl, did she have a choice to be raised from the dead (her sleep)?

The only thing I see in the will of man is that he can convince another the inevitable will not take place, which of course becomes a lie they believe

My  :2c:

[Dandelion]

I am not saying that I agree with the line of reasoning that people would, or even could choose Hell for all eternity.....

I just know many people who would refute that quote with that thought.

Just to be clear.

D.

[rosered]

I am not saying that I agree with the line of reasoning that people would, or even could choose Hell for all eternity.....

I just know many people who would refute that quote with that thought.

Just to be clear.

D.

I agreed with you  sis  ,  that many say this very thing !!  :thumbsup:
 
  Just shared    some thoughts that might  help answer   that reasoning  and never thought you think that way , , Although when I was  younger I sure did  think exactly that way   , and what changed my mind  , and heart   was those scriptures and  a different way of reasoning .   

It took several things to   loose the bondage  of that  '' death   hold '' thinking on me personally  , I was raised   in a hell fire Baptist 
preaching  environment for most of my childhood    and young adult life .
  It was when Jesus told  a young  disciple he had chosen   , when asked if he could bury his father   , Jesus told him , ''Let the dead bury   their dead '',  you come follow Me ''  by proclaiming   the   Kingdom of God .    For me , it is   the good news of the gospel  and ministry of reconciliation  and the  joy set before us  keeping the hope alive  though sharing and caring  for the ones seeking to  find the Lords presence in their lives also .

  It took many  things  ,  by the Holy Spirit   , guiding the course  ,   the death of my brother ,  meeting my sister and her testimony ,  being led  the Kingdomtalk and than here to the Tentmaker   site   and just a lot of reading and searching things out with the  Blue Letter bible   site and many handy   bible tools    and brothers and sisters  coming and going  , asking Jesus a million questions  in alone times . etc .   just to get this far .     :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

hey D,I never thought you reasoned that way,either... :girlheart:

[Andrew]

Hi rosered

Did your sister have a very convincing testimony about UR. I would like to know a little more about that if you care to share. And you said you asked Jesus a million questions- did He answer them by giving you a knowing or in some other significant way that could help me believe that UR IS true....I'm almost there but the more testimonies I hear the better.

Thanks   

[rosered]

Hi rosered

Did your sister have a very convincing testimony about UR. I would like to know a little more about that if you care to share. And you said you asked Jesus a million questions- did He answer them by giving you a knowing or in some other significant way that could help me believe that UR IS true....I'm almost there but the more testimonies I hear the better.

Thanks   

Hi Andrew ,

  Thank you for your reply ,

    My sister just planted the seed  ,  she is Shelia on this site also ,   I did not believe it at first , it sounded to good to be true .  She had the same reaction  when she first heard the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ  also   the salvation of all .

I believe it is a normal  knee jerk reaction .  After being told   your whole life to fear God  , but this fear is in reverence to Him and high honor , and that healthy fear  of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom ,  to teach us His heart , I do believe  , as we begin to trust in  the goodness of God .

I too  wrestled with it   for a good 2 years ,  back and forth  over and over ,  I feared I was being deceived . I recall  saying I do not know how HE IS GOING TO do it , but I know He will because He is God and perfect in every way  , that is all I could muster in faith  for a long while .

The bible can be read with our natural mind and say ,scarcely  no one can be saved  , or look at the power oF HIS GLORY  and say all will be saved , and Think  I know God can do that  , save anyone   , anywhere at any given time .
  Jesus CHRIST  did not die in vain and for just a few  , the gift of His sacrifice  was   for all   and  taken care of by Himself , so no one can boast or say look at me , look  what I did ,   it will all be   eyes looking to Him   and see  Him as He is .

HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY .

I believe the clencher  , for me personally was when He said pray for your enemies and be good to those whom hate you .
  the common sense  kicked in ,  how could GOD ask that of anyone if He Himself was not that merciful  ????? 

   than I asked Jesus  , is this true ? are you going to really save everyone ? and when I read that every knee will bow and tongue will confess  to Him that HE  is the Lord   than all the doubting will be removed .  wow !   many other things begin to add up , it was like rising up out of a sleep  , when you are not aware and suddenly you are very aware of your surroundings  and awake  and can  actually feel His presence !  mostly it was  and  still is strong in the mornings .

I must admit  ,  when I first begin to  hear  in the Spirit  it was odd ,
He had answered a prayer  so beautifully   , I knew he heard , it was for a healing on a very sick  little child . and was told what to do  and how to help her that actually seemed contrary to what the Doctors  had declared to keep her alive .  All you can do is praise God for such a miracle  and rejoice in the healing .
  and yes at times it is  just a quicking  and a knowing that aha! moment  a light shined though the darkness  of ignorance , same as children asking  so many questions , why  this and how is that and so on .

  my other sister  had a near death experience   and when she  began to leave her mortal body  and  rise  , she looked down and saw  it and said that's me but that is not really me I am  me here  and she began to feel such a strong sense of love , she said she never ever felt  in the world her whole life till that moment , and  she actually changed her ways after that and started seeking the LORD and that is what made me believe it was real and not some fake  mystical magical  deception 
  it actually changed her  way of thinking ,   a  genuine repentance if you will see it that way .

I know it is the Lord Himself that makes us more aware of His presence in our lives and never hurts to ask Him to  help us believe  and increase our  faith   when the fear creeps in and begins to make us doubt  ourselves  and what is  the  truth . ,.

God bless your seeking His face  brother ...     :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Andrew]

thank you Rosered for that wonderful reply.   

[jabcat]

yes,  :goodpost: rosie!!

[rosered]

  Oh , thank you for the opportunity to share my faith  with you  brother  , and James  God  bless you  :dsunny: ,

I would love to hear yours so far .

  I thought last night  upon this also ,  just before going to sleep for the night  because of this thread ,

If the natural mind is an enemy against the Spirit .
and the natural mind  is death  and the  Holy  Spirit is Life , it really is polar opposites  of   the two extremes , the Lord just takes us to  thoughts we can never even  consider when we are only  thinking about things in this  world  only and not give the Lord another thought
I do  believe He puts that hunger and thirst   in us  to learn His righteousness   from a born again desire to please GOD our heavenly Father  .

And we do want to know Him in a more intimate  and personal  way  [ our soul awakens to seek His righteousness ]
and be filled with the good things of God  and desire for the salvation of all  in a more conscience effort   than when we only seeked for our own  salvation and our loved ones only .

It changes our whole outlook  and perception of the Living God  , gaining a better foothold  and understanding the heart of GOD .

I know Spiritual growth is real and possible with God doing all the  hard stuff , while we just keep believing in Him ,that He will do it as   He promised  He will  and we try not to stumble along the way  and  keep that hope alive in us . He sure does help us with our unbelief . and to me it is all the   daily little things that mean a lot .
   To know Him is to love Him  , that is somthing I am sure of more  and more each day .not so easy at times , for me ,  but well worth it .

  God bless your whole  heart ,  Andrew  and all whom love the truth with it .

  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

timothy 2'4

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"

This is how my king james bible translate it - is that accurate? I always thought it was God's will to save all men rather than "will have all men to be saved". If this is correct then it is got be the best example of UR thought.


also timothy 4'10

"because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, specially of those that believe"

I was wondering how an et believer who look at this verse and all I could come up with is that they would say that Jesus is the savior of all men but especially those who believe because they will actually get saved where non-believers it's more like Jesus was their savior but they didn't receive Him -if that makes any sense...               

I would like to go back to Andrew's original post and address the two verses he quoted, of course, what you are about to read is just my opinion, but it is what makes sense to me and reinforces the foundation of UR for me.

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4)

What made this verse jump up and slap me in the face and say "wake up" was the simple word "the" in second part of this verse. When I started studying deeper into even these simple words that can be taken for granted, I found it was a word that could also be translated as the word "this".

And when I put in the word "this" in the place of the word "the" in the second part of the verse, I saw this, and the thing is, I not only saw it but I felt it and that is what made such a significant difference in my understanding.

"Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of THIS truth", the second part of this verse is reinforcing the first part of the verse in that "the knowledge of THIS truth" that we are "to come unto" is that "God will have all men to be saved"

The word is suppose to reinforce the word, and not just reinforce it, but also bind it together and hold it together and make it so strong that no man or anything he can say can take that from you or tear it apart.

As for the second example:

"because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10)

With this verse I saw it as "word" and "definition" like in a dictionary, that if you looked up "The living God" in the dictionary, it would be defined as "the savior of all men".

Other men will try to convince us otherwise, that He isn't the savior of all men, but if we believe He is, then we become a part of the last part of this verse "specially of those that believe"

Because what do we believe? We believe HE IS the savior of ALL men, and what can reinforce this is, what Christ said about His own life,

"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (John 10:18)

Just like Christ has the power to lay down His life, so do we, we have the power to lay down our life of the understanding that God "is not" the savior of ALL men and PICK UP the incorruptible truth of "HE IS" the savior of ALL men and agree with it and believe it.

"specially of those that believe" becomes a part of us, for now we are a part of the glorious gospel, the glorious "Good News" to take to those who still live in "the fear of death", who have lived in the "fear of death" their whole life and are trying to seek the truth as you are Andrew.

IMO, it is when we fully believe that "HE IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN", it is then the written word comes to life and is revealed and by this ALL things become new and THAT includes our understanding of who God truly is:

That He is not the Savior of just "some" men, He is the Savior of "all men"  :dsunny:

[Patinak]

Nicely done Rick, thanks.

[marie glen]

Amen all..

The Greek ( https://biblehub.com/greek/2309.htm ) - of "to will" = to will (have in mind) intend; i. e.:
1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose ( https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/2-4.htm - the verse w/ the links to the words used)

So, yes, how is it possible to doubt He, who "is perfect" (Mt.5:48) cannot (easily) accomplish what He intends! What He purposes.. what He is determined to do!

Also in the verse is used the word "all" which in the greek as we know is  #G3956 - "pas" - all, every, the whole - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

To us, it means not losing one.. let alone 2/3 to 3/4 's of all mankind! How is that "perfect"?

Which, #G3956 - "pas" - all, every, the whole -  is also in the verse 1 Tim.4:10 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/4-10.htm -  "God is the savior of all" and of course is especially saving those who believe.. as we know - believing - is the beginning of that process, or IS that process!

It's really quite shocking.. And is perhaps why Jesus said our teacher is the Holy Spirit and not other persons.. Jesus saying "Thy Word is Truth".. so whatever ppl say, is inconclusive and can be taken with a grain of salt.. All those teachings which contradict God's Word(s).

His Will - "all be saved/have everlasting Life" - from death, to Life! :gsmile:

What a contrast life as He is building it shall be! As compared to life as man builds it, which result (wage) is death (after tribulation & apocalypse, as life not built on the rock can only ever fall and fade away, the proverbial crashing and burning, both individual or collective)..

But! HIS will ='s "none perish". :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

 :thumbsup: