Is Matthew 25:31-46 referring to the time after the second resurrection at the end of the Millennial Age of the Kingdom of God when the people who aren't in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire?
Bible scholars disagree on an exact interpretation of the how and the when. Anyone that tells you they know exactly what is meant by these verses is stretching the truth at best. All you'll get is people's opinions about the exact meaning. With all scripture, read and read and pray for guidance from the holy spirit but remember to get the important thing out of these verses. It's not the how or the when of when these things will occur because we have no control over any of that. Instead pray on what we are able to change... the way we treat what others consider to be the least of humanity, we are to treat as the Lord himself.
Good question DC.
YLTRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
==> Only those that didn't follow the beast will live during the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.
==> The first resurrection is for saints only
6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
==> They will reign with Jesus. The question is over who they reign if the sinners are not resurrected yet?
==> How can the sinners have a second death if they are not part of the resurrection?
7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;
9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
==> After the 1000 years satan is allowed to lead the world astray again. Satan gets defeated and cast in LoF. Beast and the fals eprophet are already there. Humans are not mentioned.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
==> Some say the scroll of life is not about the life of mankind. "The life" = Jesus so: and another scroll was opened, which is that of Jesus
13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
==> very puzzling. I looks like the chronology is a bit mixed up. The saints already lived a year. The people stand before the throne (are the sainst only)
==> The dead are judged before they are given up by hades???
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
==> Hades is empty and cast in LoF
15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
==> Sinners are cast in LoF
So it looks the answer to your question is that Matthew is after the 1000 years because in Revelation that also happens after the 1000 years.
In verse 13 we see judgement of works like in the verses you mentioned. So that's an other indication it happens after the 1000 years.
What I find odd is that there are at leat 2 judgements.
The saints are resurrected. Obviously to that means God finds them worthy for that resurrection. So that's a judgement.
Later we see another resurrection before the white throne.
:dontknow:
That's after the period satan was back on earth for a while. So he likely decieved some of teh saints from the 1000 year reign too.
Quote from: DC on December 23, 2010, 06:31:56 PM
Is Matthew 25:31-46 referring to the time after the second resurrection at the end of the Millennial Age of the Kingdom of God when the people who aren't in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire?
In my opinion, that judgement is only for unbelievers, and/or people who never heard of Jesus. Note that those who are judged righteous had to ask when they did all those things for Him. I think they are the people Paul writes about in Romans 2:15, who "... show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
So, the big question is "is Matthew 25:31-46 talking about the Final White Throne Judgment?" I really really like to think that it is. I feel like the Holy Spirit has been guiding me to the answers to all my big questions lately. After all, this is where Jesus mentions the "Aionios Kolasis" (age-abiding correction), and with all the information I've gathered, if I can just find proof that these verses are referring to the White Throne Judgement I think I'll finally be able to prove without a doubt that UR is true.
Some things to consider:
-I don't think Revelation mentions any other Judgments besides the White Throne Judgment.
-Verse 31 mentions Jesus sitting on a throne- could this be the Great White Throne?
-In verse 41, Jesus mentions the "aionion fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Is there anything that this could be besides the Lake of Fire?
Hi DC,
As I wrote in my previous post I think Matthew is after the GWTJ.
But while reading your 2nd post in this thread I had another thought.
If LoF and Matthew are not the same event that means there are 2 punishments.
It would also mean there is a punishment before and after the judgement.
That's very odd.
It's like the police locks you up in jail for 10 year. After those 10 year a judge gives you another 5 years.
I could be very wrong but I think Father is very passive in the judgements.
QuoteVerse 31 mentions Jesus sitting on a throne- could this be the Great White Throne?
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
I wonder if all things also includes the right to judge and correct.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2010, 08:07:57 PM
If LoF and Matthew are not the same event that means there are 2 punishments.
It would also mean there is a punishment before and after the judgement.
That's very odd.
Well if you're me ... (I'm Chevy Chase and you're not) ... LoF is not a "punishment," it is the place of final destruction. Not all are destined for LoF - only those whose names are not written in the book of life.
:2c:
That doesn't really solve the problem.
But if Mattew is NOT about LoF then the sequence is:
a] Punishment (Matthew)
b] White Throne Judgement (Rev)
c] Destruction in LoF (Rev)
That would mean people are punished before destruction.
Firstly that means it is vindictive punishment that serves no corrective purpose because even if the sinner becomes a saint s/he gets destroyed anyway. (or is it a second chance thing?)
Secondly it means people get punished before the Judge on the White Throne passed judgement.
I find that odd. Not just in the case of ED but in every case.
Finally a question.
If you/anyone look at a the 'timeline' op Revelation (1000 year. Resurrections. Etc); where does Matthew fit in that timeline?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2010, 09:28:04 PM
That doesn't really solve the problem.
But if Mattew is NOT about LoF then the sequence is:
a] Punishment (Matthew)
b] White Throne Judgement (Rev)
c] Destruction in LoF (Rev)
That would mean people are punished before destruction.
Firstly that means it is vindictive punishment that serves no corrective purpose because even if the sinner becomes a saint s/he gets destroyed anyway. (or is it a second chance thing?)
Secondly it means people get punished before the Judge on the White Throne passed judgement.
I find that odd. Not just in the case of ED but in every case.
Finally a question.
If you/anyone look at a the 'timeline' op Revelation (1000 year. Resurrections. Etc); where does Matthew fit in that timeline?
I guess I'm not sure why you think people are "punished?" I think there may be a purification, but punishment? Is there a passage that says that? (There may be - it's just not coming to mind at the moment)
As for a general timeline, 1 Cor 15 says, "then comes the end (vs. 24) when Jesus hands the kingdom to the Father. At this point, all enemies have been put under his feet (vs 25) and the last enemy destroyed is death (vs 26)
When is death destroyed? In Rev 20, at the white throne judgment you all are talking about. I don't see why this isn't the judgment Jesus describes in Matthew:
11 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life.
The dead were judged[/u] according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead.
All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
Here death is destroyed:
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire.
What's the very next line?
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
If the pool of fire destroyed death, why wouldn't it destroy those who were also thrown in? I think that it does - nothing indicates it is temporary or that "all" are thrown in.
THAT is their punishment; I don't see any indication of other punishment or torture; simply that they are destroyed. Anything "corrective" occurred in this life, as God is exceedingly patient and gives us every opportunity. (that comes from the book of Wisdom in the Catholic Bible).
Truthfully, the 1,000 years has always puzzled me. I tend to think it is simply the time between Jesus' resurrection 2,000 years ago, and "the end" when He comes again to judge the living and the dead. Believers enter into His presence immediately at their death; all others "sleep" until they are raised for the judgement of Matthew/at the white throne, when those who never heard of Jesus and those who will be saved (but weren't believers) will also enter into His presence; those who are not saved are destroyed.
That's how I see it at this point, although I am still studying and learning.
Oops ... messed up trying to edit the last post - sorry! :icon_flower:
Quote from: LS on December 24, 2010, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2010, 09:28:04 PM
That doesn't really solve the problem.
But if Mattew is NOT about LoF then the sequence is:
a] Punishment (Matthew)
b] White Throne Judgement (Rev)
c] Destruction in LoF (Rev)
That would mean people are punished before destruction.
Firstly that means it is vindictive punishment that serves no corrective purpose because even if the sinner becomes a saint s/he gets destroyed anyway. (or is it a second chance thing?)
Secondly it means people get punished before the Judge on the White Throne passed judgement.
I find that odd. Not just in the case of ED but in every case.
Finally a question.
If you/anyone look at a the 'timeline' op Revelation (1000 year. Resurrections. Etc); where does Matthew fit in that timeline?
I guess I'm not sure why you think people are "punished?" I think there may be a purification, but punishment? Is there a passage that says that? (There may be - it's just not coming to mind at the moment)
Matthew 25:46
That "action" takes place before judgement.
QuoteWhen is death destroyed? In Rev 20, at the white throne judgment you all are talking about. I don't see why this isn't the judgment Jesus describes in Matthew:
Maybe I was not clear. If you read my first reply in this thread you see I conclude that Matthew 25:46 is the Judgement/LoF. And that is still my comclusion.
Then DC asks
QuoteSo, the big question is "is Matthew 25:31-46 talking about the Final White Throne Judgment?" I really really like to think that it is. I feel like the Holy Spirit has been guiding me to the answers to all my big questions lately. After all, this is where Jesus mentions the "Aionios Kolasis" (age-abiding correction), and with all the information I've gathered, if I can just find proof that these verses are referring to the White Throne Judgement I think I'll finally be able to prove without a doubt that UR is true.
Then I could just have repeated my first reply. But I didn't.....
Then wrote it would be odd that there are 2 punishments/corrections/.... and only one judgement. That's very odd. I hope that clears up the confusion a bit.
Quote11 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged[/u] according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
Here death is destroyed:
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire.
What's the very next line?
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
If the pool of fire destroyed death, why wouldn't it destroy those who were also thrown in? I think that it does - nothing indicates it is temporary or that "all" are thrown in.
Death can't be destroyed because it's not a thing. It's a concept. The concept no longer exists. Same for Hades.
After that event nothing can die because God destroyed the whole concept of death. If the people were cast in LoF before Death and Hades it would be (possibly) different.
QuoteTHAT is their punishment; I don't see any indication of other punishment or torture; simply that they are destroyed.
So the eternal punishment of Matthew is just being eternally dead?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2010, 11:00:14 PM
Death can't be destroyed because it's not a thing. It's a concept. The concept no longer exists. Same for Hades.
I couldn't disagree more. Scripture explicitly
says that death is destroyed; therefore, I believe that to be true.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2010, 11:00:14 PM
So the eternal punishment of Matthew is just being eternally dead?
In my opinion, yes.
Quote from: LS on December 25, 2010, 12:12:33 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2010, 11:00:14 PM
Death can't be destroyed because it's not a thing. It's a concept. The concept no longer exists. Same for Hades.
I couldn't disagree more. Scripture explicitly says that death is destroyed; therefore, I believe that to be true.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Then you completly misunderstood me.
I mean death is not a person or a thing. So that person or thing can't die.
The
concept of death dies. The concept op death no longer exists.
The word concept is important for what I'm trying to say.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2010, 11:00:14 PM
So the eternal punishment of Matthew is just being eternally dead?
In my opinion, yes.
To quote your own words: "I couldn't disagree more. Scripture explicitly says that death is destroyed;"
Death is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes
after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.
That's a contradiction imo.....
QuoteDeath is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.
Let me ET-rify this verse:
Of course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever... and into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??
And there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...
What will happen to death in the LoF, it will be turned into life? I don't think so, Death and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.
- end ET-rification -
Ok refute. :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 25, 2010, 12:41:48 AM
Then you completly misunderstood me.
I mean death is not a person or a thing. So that person or thing can't die.
The concept of death dies. The concept op death no longer exists.
The word concept is important for what I'm trying to say.
I'm sorry WW, I just can't agree - scripture doesn't say the "concept" dies. It says that
death is
destroyed. I don't think death dies, I don't think the concept of death ends ... death itself is utterly destroyed, just as the passage says.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 25, 2010, 12:41:48 AM
Death is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.
That's a contradiction imo.....
Not in my opinion. Those people aren't just dead (with a hope/possibility of future resurrection). They (like death) are utterly destroyed.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse ... I just was trying to reply to your question about a timeline, and this is how I see it. I don't see any contradiction, and I think it is Biblically correct.
Peace bro - I always enjoy talking to you :cloud9:
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 25, 2010, 12:57:31 AM
QuoteDeath is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.
Let me ET-rify this verse:
Of course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever... and into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??
And there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...
What will happen to death in the LoF, it will be turned into life? I don't think so, Death and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.
- end ET-rification -
Ok refute. :thumbsup:
I'm not an ET believer, so I really have no reply to your ET-rification :happy3:
:eek: another PN question. That's gonna cost me a few (http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/RiverIsMyGoddess/icons/smiley_cannabisleaf.gif) to answer :laughing7:
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 25, 2010, 12:57:31 AMOk refute. :thumbsup:
Erm.... how shall I answer you in a polite way.... :laughing7:
I wasn't ETifrying because LS believes in EDification
:gpg: <---- buy some glasses. :winkgrin:
QuoteOf course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever...
That's one of teh reasons I kept mentioning "concept". Concepts can't be tortured.
Quoteand into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??
I don't believe that. God created the ages along with the material world. Time can't exist without matter. And when teh heaven and earth flee away it basicly means time is decreated. So the ages end.
QuoteAnd there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...
There is no more death so no spiritual death either. And the spiritually alive know Jesus and therefore turn to Jesus. And He shall nowise turn anyone away.
QuoteDeath and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.
I keep wondering if this verse is a pun. Hades is not really the grave. The grave is the kingdom of the Greek god Hades. So I'm wondering if pagan cocepts are ridiculed in this verse.
Quote from: LS on December 25, 2010, 01:24:32 AMNot in my opinion. Those people aren't just dead (with a hope/possibility of future resurrection). They (like death) are utterly destroyed.
Dead is the absense of life.
The destroyed people don't have life so they are dead.
Dead never have hope because they know nothing.
QuoteI just was trying to reply to your question about a timeline
That question was not about ET, ED or UR.
It was about punishment/correction/... happening before the White Throne judgement. ( I think not)
QuoteI'm sorry WW, I just can't agree - scripture doesn't say the "concept" dies. It says that death is destroyed. I don't think death dies, I don't think the concept of death ends ... death itself is utterly destroyed, just as the passage says.
Someting that doesn't exist can't be destroyed. Death is not a thing solid form. It's not a spirit for either. It's the absense of (the spirit of) life.
I call that a concept. Maybe not the best possible word. That's very well possible.
What I mean is that the destruction of dead is God saying that He no longer withdraws life from people.
I seems we have a whole different idea about what death is. Maybe someone has a few verses that define death...
I know none of you were discussing nor mock-advocating ET in this thread... That thought just came to mind since you were discussing 1 Cor. 15: 22 - 28, one of my favorite UR verses...
And why are you equating my questions with marijuana induced hallucinations? :grin: :grin:
But yes, I've had that thought for awhile about "death and "Hades" in LOF in relation to it being destroyed as written by Paul.. thanks for the answers! And I never thought that both could simply be concepts... I had the feeling they were spirits or some sort of demons who had control over those two things, both death and the "unseen" (The veil that covers all the earth as in what Isaiah wrote?)
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 25, 2010, 01:29:16 AM
:eek: another PN question. That's gonna cost me a few (http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/RiverIsMyGoddess/icons/smiley_cannabisleaf.gif) to answer :laughing7:
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 25, 2010, 12:57:31 AMOk refute. :thumbsup:
Erm.... how shall I answer you in a polite way.... :laughing7:
I wasn't ETifrying because LS believes in EDification
:gpg: <---- buy some glasses. :winkgrin:
QuoteOf course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever...
That's one of teh reasons I kept mentioning "concept". Concepts can't be tortured.
Quoteand into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??
I don't believe that. God created the ages along with the material world. Time can't exist without matter. And when teh heaven and earth flee away it basicly means time is decreated. So the ages end.
QuoteAnd there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...
There is no more death so no spiritual death either. And the spiritually alive know Jesus and therefore turn to Jesus. And He shall nowise turn anyone away.
QuoteDeath and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.
I keep wondering if this verse is a pun. Hades is not really the grave. The grave is the kingdom of the Greek god Hades. So I'm wondering if pagan cocepts are ridiculed in this verse.
@LS:
QuoteI'm not an ET believer, so I really have no reply to your ET-rification :happy3:
But you are a Roman Catholic by the way you profess your faith, right? So you truly believe that all mankind, as in every single soul will eventually enter the glorious freedom of God's children? :bigGrin:
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 25, 2010, 02:05:56 AM
But you are a Roman Catholic by the way you profess your faith, right? So you truly believe that all mankind, as in every single soul will eventually enter the glorious freedom of God's children? :bigGrin:
Hi PaoloNuevo ... I am a member of the Roman Catholic church :) However, my own personal beliefs are that some by their own willful, intentional and knowing rejection of God will not be saved; they will be utterly destroyed.
LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.
Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
The Greek words that have been translated as "made alive" really mean "made immortal." I know that some translations of this verse say that "many" will be made alive, but the original Greek clearly says "all." "Christ the firstfruit" obviously means that Jesus is the first person to be made Immortal. "They that are Christ's at His coming" is referring to all the people who accept Christ as their savior who will be raised at the First Resurrection.
"Then Cometh the end" simply has to be referring to everyone else. According to Doctor Hurley in this article: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm :
"But Christ, and they that are Christ's, however, do not include all who died in Adam; they are only a handful compared to the remaining ones. When are the rest to be raised to immortality? Well, in the words, "Then cometh the end," the word "cometh" is in italics, showing that Paul did not use that word at all. It was supplied by the translators and, in this case, completely changes the meaning. Paul is talking about the order in which all are to be made alive. The word translated "order" means a "group," or "rank," or "band," like succeeding groups or bands in a parade. Christ is the first order; they that are Christ's are the second order; and the rest constitute the third order to be made alive, "when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
These three orders constitute the "all" who are to be made alive spiritually or immortally. Some will insist that this is a mere assumption in order to support an opinion. But there are two facts in the Greek of the passage that prove the statement to be correct. In the first place, the Greek word hekastos, translated "every man," or, more accurately, "each," is regularly used to signify each one of several items. If there were only two items or individuals, the word meaning "both" would be used. This same distinction is also regular usage in the English language, so that there should be no difficulty in understanding it.
In the second place, two other words are used which make the conclusion inevitable. The adverbs epeita and eita make unquestionable the significance of three orders. They are words used to mark succession of time or order, meaning that that which precedes the statement which they introduce is related in time or order to what follows, and that what follows is related in the same way to what precedes. So that the Greek words eita to telos meaning, "then the end" (or "consummation") simply have to refer to the "order" or "rank" that is referred to in the preceding verse."
Quote from: DC on December 25, 2010, 06:10:05 PM
LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.
Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
The Greek words that have been translated as "made alive" really mean "made immortal." I know that some translations of this verse say that "many" will be made alive, but the original Greek clearly says "all." "Christ the firstfruit" obviously means that Jesus is the first person to be made Immortal. "They that are Christ's at His coming" is referring to all the people who accept Christ as their savior who will be raised at the First Resurrection.
DC, can you tell me your source for "made alive" meaning "made immortal?" That isn't the definition I see in Strong's, and the other places where the same word is used wouldn't lead me to believe it means that either.
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
I can't find it either LS. I'm using Thayer (it's an expanded Strong)
But I do remember a book of discussion that makes the same claims as DC does. I'll try to dig up some info....
PS:
I think made alive IN Christ is a big hint.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/OneCor.html
On the other hand, some years later, Professor G.G. Finlay, pointed out that being made alive is "wider in intention" than being resurrected, "as it imports not the mere raising of the body, but restoration to 'life' in the full sense of the term." Finlay says the stress of the passage is not on all, which he then employs in his gloss of what Paul was trying to say: "The point is that as death in all cases is grounded in Adam, so life in all cases is grounded in Christ." (THE EXPOSITOR'S GREEK TESTAMENT, vol.2, p.926).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wesley's Notes
15:22 As through Adam all, even the righteous, die, so through Christ all these shall be made alive - He does not say, shall revive, (as naturally as they die,) but shall be made alive, by a power not their own.
Quote from: LS on December 26, 2010, 04:10:11 AM
Quote from: DC on December 25, 2010, 06:10:05 PM
LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.
Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
The Greek words that have been translated as "made alive" really mean "made immortal." I know that some translations of this verse say that "many" will be made alive, but the original Greek clearly says "all." "Christ the firstfruit" obviously means that Jesus is the first person to be made Immortal. "They that are Christ's at His coming" is referring to all the people who accept Christ as their savior who will be raised at the First Resurrection.
DC, can you tell me your source for "made alive" meaning "made immortal?" That isn't the definition I see in Strong's, and the other places where the same word is used wouldn't lead me to believe it means that either.
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
my source is here: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/topicseen/bible_threatenings_explained/the_sheep_the_goats_of_st._matt._25_1484.msg20527.html#msg20527
QuoteThe punishment in St. Matthew 25, comes from the word κολαζω which means to prune and is used in a disciplinary sense and not a penal one. μωρια would be used in a penal (vengeance) sense, not kolasis which means correction and is rooted in kolazo leading to the same result: purging and pruning.
While I can appreciate how that line of reasoning works - and thank you for pointing me to it so I can understand - for me it comes back to, "what does the Bible say. And for me, it is not evidence that the Lake of Fire can't mean annihilation.
In Peace
:grouppray:
Hi LS,
I noticed that you do believe that death will be destroyed? If that is true how do you reckon the fact that there will be dead people who have been annihilated? No matter how you look at it, being annihilated is being dead. If one person remains dead then death hasn't been destroyed. When people are creamated they are dead wouldn't you say? Once you have life and that life is taken away you are dead no matter how you die.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 27, 2010, 12:37:42 AM
Hi LS,
I noticed that you do believe that death will be destroyed? If that is true how do you reckon the fact that there will be dead people who have been annihilated? No matter how you look at it, being annihilated is being dead. If one person remains dead then death hasn't been destroyed. When people are creamated they are dead wouldn't you say? Once you have life and that life is taken away you are dead no matter how you die.
CHB
Hi CHB - if death is "a state of being" from which one can be resurrected ... then I think that being annihilated is not a state of being. Nothing remains to "be" dead, and there is no hope of resurrection.
I think that when one initially dies in this life, it doesn't matter if the body is buried, cremated or lost at sea - those are all clearly resurrected for judgment, as shown in Revelation 20:13:
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Quote from: LS on December 27, 2010, 01:14:19 AM
Hi CHB - if death is "a state of being" from which one can be resurrected ... then I think that being annihilated is not a state of being. Nothing remains to "be" dead, and there is no hope of resurrection.
Hi Leading Saint, :high5:
So if 100% of creation is annihilated then death has no victory because the people are "beyond dead"?
Does it means Jesus is a succesful saviour because nobody is dead? (they are beyond dead and without hope)
You wrote that annihilated people have no hope. Neither do dead people. They can't think so they can't hope.
Dead people are equally dead as annihilated people. There is no difference between it. The only difference is that after annihilation Father doesn't decide to resurrect them.
So annihilated people = dead people = death has a sting and lots of victory = Hades is full.
You can claim there is a difference because God decided to never resurrect the annihilated people. But from the view of Mr. Death and Mr. Hades they are dead and they are forever filling Hades.
:2c:
Maybe there is something to learn from the order in which things happen?
What do you think of this page? If you have no time to read it all just look at the last diagram. (don't forget to click the red link to enlarge the diagram.
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/All_about_eons.htm
Quote from: DC on December 25, 2010, 06:10:05 PM
LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.
Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Quote from: DC on December 23, 2010, 06:31:56 PM
Is Matthew 25:31-46 referring to the time after the second resurrection at the end of the Millennial Age of the Kingdom of God when the people who aren't in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire?
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
Quote from: LS on December 27, 2010, 01:14:19 AM
Quote from: CHB on December 27, 2010, 12:37:42 AM
Hi LS,
I noticed that you do believe that death will be destroyed? If that is true how do you reckon the fact that there will be dead people who have been annihilated? No matter how you look at it, being annihilated is being dead. If one person remains dead then death hasn't been destroyed. When people are cremated they are dead wouldn't you say? Once you have life and that life is taken away you are dead no matter how you die.
CHB
Hi CHB - if death is "a state of being" from which one can be resurrected ... then I think that being annihilated is not a state of being. Nothing remains to "be" dead, and there is no hope of resurrection.
I think that when one initially dies in this life, it doesn't matter if the body is buried, cremated or lost at sea - those are all clearly resurrected for judgment, as shown in Revelation 20:13:
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
LS, do you think God created all of these people knowing that he would annihilate them? if you knew your child would be tortured for as long as it lived, would you even have children? Isn't God much more merciful than we are?
What does it say about God's judgment" It says that God will "judge the world IN RIGHTEOUSNESS". Those that are not righteous will become righteous. (Psalms 72:2) He shall judge they people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. (Psalms 94:15) But judgment shall return unto righteousness.
(Phil. 3:9) "Not having mine own righteousness , which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ".
This verse tells me that it is through the righteousness and faith of Christ that I am saved, not by my own righteousness. If that is true, then it is not dependent upon anything that I do. Therefore, if annihilation is true, God just chooses to annihilate those who he wants to annihilate, which doesn't sound fair to me, for we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I say, since it is dependent upon Christ's righteousness and faith that all will be judged by that. Now, those who feel they have to save themselves will probably have to learn that it is up to Christ and not us. This is done through the lake of fire, where their works will be destroyed, not the person (1Cor. 3:13-15).
CHB
Lately I've been trying to fit together as many pieces to this big puzzle as I can. Matthew 25:31-46 is one of the most important pieces of that puzzle. On close examination it does seem to be about the last judgment-the only stumbling block to me is that it doesn't mention the thousand years between the second coming and the White Throne Judgment.
When using a verse to prove something, I think it's very important to take a very close look at the context of the verse to see if it is about what you think it may be about. There are four other verses that I think may be referring to the Lake of Fire, but I can't say for sure because I'm having a hard time figuring out the context of these verses. Can someone who is better at this kind of thing take a close look at these verses and try to determine the likelyhood of the being about the Lake of Fire? The 4 verses I am referring to are:
Malachi 3:2-4
"2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years."
1 Corithians 3:10-15
"10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. "
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
Mark 9:49
"Everyone will be salted with fire."