Tentmaker Forum

In Old Testament times, when the high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood sacrifice for the people of Israel, was everyone forgiven of their sins through that sacrifice, or did the Israelites have to "choose" to be covered by it?

Any help would be appreciated!

Love to all,
Brian

According to the book of Hebrews, the sacrifices were only meant to remind people to their sins.

I do not agree that it was only a reminder.
Hebrews 7:
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


My understanding of the Scriptures has always been that God required the Jewish nation to provide a sacrifice for their sins, in order to be accepted by God, not simply to remind them that they sinned!

Returning to the original question: did the Israelites have to "choose" to be under the sacrifice made by the high priest, or were all Israelites pardoned by it automatically?

Thank you!

Brian

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on June 25, 2008, 03:12:54 PM
In Old Testament times, when the high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood sacrifice for the people of Israel, was everyone forgiven of their sins through that sacrifice, or did the Israelites have to "choose" to be covered by it?

Any help would be appreciated!

Love to all,
Brian

Read 2 Chronicles 30-31. It covered even those who did not choose to be covered by it, but because King of Israel prayed and asked for it.

Thank you SOtW..

In fact, it now seems clear that if the high priests provided a sin sacrifice in order to cleanse the Israelites, then the Most High Priest (Jesus) has been provided as the sacrifice to cleanse the entire world! Praise GOD! That means that the world has been truly cleansed from sin!
This is important, because it means that God has PUT AWAY SIN. Can we believe that today in our hearts? Are we living knowing that God has finished with sin? Or are we still looking at sin as present and a problem?

Yes, people will say, "but there are still sinners out there--sinning and living in sin!!!"

But I feel in my heart that God is wanting to show us that ONE sacrifice was needed at the end of the world in order to create something new. To be finished with it ALL. Could that be why Jesus was called the Last Adam? Maybe because, through His death, the curse and lineage of the first Adam would be broken? That now in the endtimes (these last 2,000 years) we would begin to see something new. Not Adam, but something new. -Are we looking for something new?

Are we seeing ourselves and each other (and the world) as God sees us all, as cleansed by the sacrifice He provided??


Yes, each man will go through the fire. Those who don't follow their Savior will suffer much loss. But those who are no longer living a sin conscience know who they belong to!

Love to all!
Brian

QuoteYes, each man will go through the fire. Those who don't follow their Savior will suffer much loss. But those who are no longer living a sin conscience know who they belong to!

That would seem to condradict the very good message you were onto. Sin has been put away, yet for some reason they will still go through the fire. For what reason? Why would they go through a fire?

If their sin was put away then we worship a God putting them through a fire for another purpose?

Please elaberate.

Along with Dallas' question...how can the "whole world already be cleansed from sin" while at the same time "sin lives and reigns in our mortal bodies" and we can look around and see murder, adultery, drunkenness...sin?  Isn't it true that individually, each must be drawn/dragged, as and when God chooses, and personal regeneration from sin occur?  Jesus has paid the price and will draw all, some now, the rest later...the creation is currently groaning....God will be all in all, not currently completely is....IMO, He's just not done yet :)

Quote from: Dallas on June 27, 2008, 07:16:56 AM

QuoteYes, each man will go through the fire. Those who don't follow their Savior will suffer much loss. But those who are no longer living a sin conscience know who they belong to!

That would seem to condradict the very good message you were onto. Sin has been put away, yet for some reason they will still go through the fire. For what reason? Why would they go through a fire?

If their sin was put away then we worship a God putting them through a fire for another purpose?

Please elaberate.

There is a huge misunderstanding in what the fire is for. I am still puzzled why anyone still thinks those who trust in the Lord, go through the Fire. (Most people make a hasty generalization that when Jesus said we all are salted with fire, that that same fire is the Lake of Fire).

So what do you think the fire is for, or that if anyone goes through the fire?

willieH: Hi James... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2008, 07:51:46 AM
Jesus has paid the price and will draw all, some now, the rest later...the creation is currently groaning....

All the above in blue, are references to TIME manifestations... GOD is not subject to TIME, time IS SUBJECT to HIM...

Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2008, 07:51:46 AMGod will be all in all, not currently completely is....IMO, He's just not done yet :)

The blue is again referencing TIME.  :winkgrin:  From the STATE in which YHVH exists, ...ALL TIME is before Him at "all times"... Its manifestation does not "UNFOLD" for Him, ...it IS... before Him... like watching a painting... He does not have to set His "eyes" to the left, then move them to the right in order that the painting be manifest in His eyes... He views it ALWAYS as a COMPLETE PICTURE...

YHVH does not CHANGE brother J...  In "becoming" something, entails change... meaning He was different in some way or degree, than He IS now...  :dontknow:

He ALWAYS IS what He IS...

Though we have yet to manifest (because of our journey in time), what we ARE, does not prevent Him in and from His Eternal state to BE ...ALL in ALL...

Those in TIME cannot know the "ALL" IN YHVH, they have ALWAYS BEEN... until time has ended for them...  :bgdance:

QuoteThere is a huge misunderstanding in what the fire is for. I am still puzzled why anyone still thinks those who trust in the Lord, go through the Fire. (Most people make a hasty generalization that when Jesus said we all are salted with fire, that that same fire is the Lake of Fire).

So what do you think the fire is for, or that if anyone goes through the fire?

Hay Craig,

The fire has a couple of meanings, both relevant.

1. Fire is a biblical picture used throughout scripture. The "Lake of Fire" taps into the covenant of Moses.The Hebrew people entered into a covenant with God and because they were not able to adhere to the stipulations and thus broke the covenant and were accountable. The covenant language in Dueteronomy clearly outlines the use of fire. This idea of fire judgement was built upon by the prophets as they were understanding of the covenant and the consequnces for disobedience to it. Example in Zephaniah combined with Isaiah. Isaiah said-

Isaiah 9:7 
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,On the throne of David and over his kingdom,To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousnessFrom then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

and

Zephaniah 3:8
"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,"For the day when I rise up as a witness Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,To assemble kingdoms,To pour out on them My indignation,All My burning anger;For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

which all came from...

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger,And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield,And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

and all that is concluded in judgement for all at the Kingship of Christ.


Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

The beast is Rome, and The False prophet is Jeruslaem. Those two were judged.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The devil is judged.


Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The results of sin is judged.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Anyone under the Moses covenant who did not convert from faith in works to faith of Christ were judged.

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." 

Those people who desire to attain righteousnes through the law were judged.


2. There is also the understanding that everyone will have their own personal "Lake of Fire." A shade, or silmilar idea of the one played out with Israel. As we grow and mature we go through a transforming as God raises us up in the presence of Christ. We are being disciplined (taught) to adhere to Jesus, to throw out self-righteousness, to give up on others to get us to God. Just as Paul was aluding to that all things that happened to Israel was for us to learn from. This persoanl Lake of Fire will not be an actual burning, but will feel like it sometime, as we can all attest to having already experienced times though our life.

Hope that made sense.

Hi Dallas.  Not Craig, I'll be brief.  It makes sense to me from a fulfilled, preterist POV, and is very interesting, thanks.  Question...if believers go through God's fire regularly for cleansing (and I believe we do), then where do you see the "lost", the-yet-to-be-saved in this scenario?  Thanks, James.

Hay Jabcat;

From my POV all are already saved. 2000 years ago Jesus accomplished salvation, forgivenes of iniquiy and put away the membance of sin.

All people were included in that. Nothing triggers this to include them, nor are they seperate from it now.

Because Adam sinned, death entered and death through sin spread to all mankind since all men sinned and became "infected" with death, so-to-speak.

Jesus's accomplishment has dealt with that situation. Death has been put to death, however people are still not knowing of such a thing so they continue on as though nothing has changed and thus not engaging into the kindom rule.

Example

A man living as a bum, who believes he indeed is a bum eats out of garbage cans and sleeps in the streets, he  does so because that's what he believes he is. That man is actually a king yet doesn't know it so he continues on until some one tells him that he is a king. Unless someone tells him he will remain acting as a bum. However when someone tells him the goodnews and gives him a throne, a robe and a scepter he engages the world that he is rightfully apart of. He turns around and begins to feast on the supper that has been prepared for him. He can finally begin to engage the world as a king.

I don't believe anyone goes through any kind of fire. For in Him we are all perfected and made equal with Jesus, "for we are as He is in this world already."  1 John.

He is at work proving to us that brilliant understanding in order that we may fully engage wat He did for us. Like the bum we have so much we have been include into yet because we don't believe the great things he has done for us we still eat out of garbage cans. That proving can feel as though we are being put through the fire.

We are all, every sinle person who has been, is or will be created has been, is and will always be perfected in Jesus's acomplishment.

The effect of the accomplishment is speading, abounding to man even more than sin abounded in death does grace abound to us, the whole of God's children, all people. It was finished, never to be worked at again.

Jesus is resting and will never need to lift another finger, niether God for He has installed His Son as King on Zion.

None are lost, nor do any need to be found. Many have not heard of their inclusion and thier good news and thus are not benifiting from the cross, but they will...Jesus promised. And I go to see that they do, as many as get in my way.

We are all along the path going from the glory of death going to the glory of life. We all have been included, now we need to hear so that we can believe.


Let me tell you Jabcat, brother.

Because of what Jesus did you are perfected, sanctified, glorified and made into everything that is good and right with God. You lack nothing, God is always pleased with you, never dissapointed. You have been given all things, been included in all things. You need to wait for nothing. You are perfectly clean in all ways, never to be cleaned again. You have been finished. "For as Jesus is, so are you in this world already."(1 John)

His love is so great, why do we weaken it?

Thanks for the reply.  Even though I don't fully see it this way at this time, your explanation is the clearest (human explanation) I've heard on this matter.  I'm sure I'll be thinking more on this, thanks again.  James.

Hi all:
Thanks for all the input!

The note about us all going through the fire is important, because that is what salvation is all about. It's about purification, about becoming something that we are not right now. EVERY MAN's work shall be tested, yet he shall be saved. Those who are "walking in sin" are already covered by the blood of the lamb (otherwise Jesus would have to be sacrificed on a regular basis to atone for people today). Now they must be purified, just as believers are already going through the process.
But His atonement (at-one-ment) has covered everyone! THAT is the Gospel! THAT is the Good News! THAT's why the animal sacrifices have been put away! Because He is the Lamb that has taken away the sin of THE WORLD! Hallelujah!

The Old Testament sacrifices covered the sins of Israel. The Only Lamb of God has covered the sins of the world, and forever. Sin has been put away.  Praise GOD!!!

Love to all,
Brian

Hello; whyiloveitaly

QuoteEVERY MAN's work shall be tested

You're seriously telling me that you can't see the conection bewteen that statemnt and and the old covenant. The covenant based upon an individuals works inorder to present themselves as righteous. Come on, that's sel-explanitory. You need to here the very thing you are saying friend.

QuoteThose who are "walking in sin" are already covered by the blood of the lamb (otherwise Jesus would have to be sacrificed on a regular basis to atone for people today). Now they must be purified, just as believers are already going through the process.

That statement is just in error. Sorry to be blunt but it's not biblical, it's definatley a north american religous statement, it just has no beaing in biblical theology.

1 john 4:17 "because as He (Jesus), so also are we in this world."

As a far as I understand it Jesus doesn't need any purification, thus neither do I.

1 Corinthians 1:30 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,"

Doesn't say yet we still need purification does it?

Titus 1:15 "To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled."

The idea that someone isn't pure comes from a mind that doesn't know that they are pure, because of what Jesus did. Becuase of Jesus all have been made pure, all have been purified by the blood, none are waiting on it. You defile the blood of Jesus by saying it hasn't cleansed you.

QuoteThose who are "walking in sin" are already covered by the blood of the lamb

Sorry, this again is a misunderstanding of scripture. The blood didn't cover sin it did away with sin. Shall people then continue in the ways of the former in the midst of the new, well they shouldn't but some definatley do, yet their behaviour doesn't discount or remove the fact that sin has been dealt with, no one is "still in sin."

The new covenant proclaims that;

Hebrews 8:7For "if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

   8For finding fault with them, He says,
         "(Q)BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
         WHEN I WILL EFFECT (R)A NEW COVENANT
         WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
      9(S)NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
         ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
         TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
         FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
         AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
      10"(T)FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
         AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
         I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
         AND I WILL WRITE THEM (U)ON THEIR HEARTS.
         AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
         AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
      11"(V)AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
         AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
         FOR (W)ALL WILL KNOW ME,
         FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
      12"(X)FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
         (Y)AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

   13When He said, "(Z)A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete (AA)But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Jesus's blood doesn't cover sin, it removes it from memory, God can even recall anyone ever being sinful, that apparently is our own doing!

Simply, people we need o start understanding that Jesus did more for us than our febel doctrines we hang onto can allow. Jesus accomplished all things and included us in that. He didn't hold anything back, He loves us!! It's us that abhore Him and refuse what His love has done.

Jesus's wasn't able to pufify me, yet He did make me all that is good and right in God! The very righteousness that God is, that's what I have become becasue of Him, 2 Corinthians 5:21. Yet He is too weak to make me pure with the same sacrifice? I am complete in Him Colossians 2:10. And the same is for everyone!

Don't seak in among a breathren that are complete and hang upon them the lie that they need, they have no need, they have Jesus!

Hi Dallas, long time no talk


How are you??


Wondering why you think the new covenant applies to us??

8For finding fault with them, He says,
         "(Q)BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
         WHEN I WILL EFFECT (R)A NEW COVENANT
         WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
      9(S)NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
         ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
         TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
         FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
         AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.



Joh 4:22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his  people from their sins.

Hello Laren;

It's been awhile, doing fine. Good to see you still fighting.

Leave it to you to through in a dirty little cheap shot...lol.

The terms and conditions were met by Jesus, those terms were to include Israel and Judah, for He being born as a Jew under the law was included in the law requirements. Thus when He accomplished the feat recieved the new covenant reward, the promises etc.

This however rejected Israel, and Judah, both houses right, no because Jesus was representitive of both. He became the recipeint of the new covenant. Iwas established between Jesus and God not any man, or house.

The new covenant was between God and Jesus, all mankind however was effected as a result of that covenant!

Psalm 2:6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
         Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
      7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
         He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
         Today I have begotten You.
      8'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
         And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

The expression nations refers to non-hebrew and the expression earth refers to the hebrew.

Jesus ascended to heaven, judged by the old covenant as worthy to recieve the kingdom. He then poured out His blood on the mercy seat cleansing all His people, all those He inherited, and transfered them all into His marvelous kingdom of light.

The new covenant is finished, completed yet the effect of it reigns forevermore. In order to understand who we are, what we are and furthermore where do we all stand in the grand scheme and day-to-day aspects of it all we need to know what took place.

The new covenant applies to us becuase we are effected, surrounded and saturated by it for our lord reigns. We are in His kindom and the "law of the land" so-to-speak is the rule of grace/new covenant.

Salvation is of the jews...of course it was, Jesus was born a jew, under jewish law and sacrificed by the jews and was raised as salvation to all. Salvation wasn't of the Gentiles.

for He shall save His people from thier sins...yes He did, he also saved all mankind in the same task. Very efficient individual. Two birds with one stone, yup, yup.

Come now laren, you know i must speak to you in a manner pleasing to our relationship and time put into it that was a very advanced question. :laughing7:

Hi Dallas--could you just explain to me, if everything is completed and Jesus is reigning--why is the world in such bad shape with unspeakably evil people still running around doing unspeakably evil things?

I'm still confused by what you are saying, I guess.

I expect his kingdom to rule on earth one day.

Hay Molly;

like I posted earlier;

QuoteExample

A man living as a bum, who believes he indeed is a bum eats out of garbage cans and sleeps in the streets, he  does so because that's what he believes he is. That man is actually a king yet doesn't know it so he continues on until some one tells him that he is a king. Unless someone tells him he will remain acting as a bum. However when someone tells him the goodnews and gives him a throne, a robe and a scepter he engages the world that he is rightfully apart of. He turns around and begins to feast on the supper that has been prepared for him. He can finally begin to engage the world as a king.

I don't believe anyone goes through any kind of fire. For in Him we are all perfected and made equal with Jesus, "for we are as He is in this world already."  1 John.

He is at work proving to us that brilliant understanding in order that we may fully engage wat He did for us. Like the bum we have so much we have been include into yet because we don't believe the great things he has done for us we still eat out of garbage cans. That proving can feel as though we are being put through the fire.

We are all, every sinle person who has been, is or will be created has been, is and will always be perfected in Jesus's acomplishment.

The effect of the accomplishment is speading, abounding to man even more than sin abounded in death does grace abound to us, the whole of God's children, all people. It was finished, never to be worked at again.

Now does everyone know this, has everyone been made aware, absolutley not. Because thery aren't awre they don't believe and continue on as bums, eating out of garbage. They need to be awaken unto righteousness, they suffer needlessly. They need to hear, not doctrines and new behaviors, but their inlcusion into fulness.

Romans 10:11 "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

   12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

   13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

   14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him (T)whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without (U)a preacher?

   15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "(V)HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO (W)BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

But, Dallas--I'm talking about the people who know, who have heard, who have rejected it --because their deeds are evil and they want to continue in their evil deeds because it gives them money, power, an inflated sense of self worth, makes them feel like God himself.  That is the way they like it.

What about them?  There are a handful of people who are suppressing all of humanity for their own ends.  They create wars, fund both sides, make a killing literally and figuratively, withhold technology, allow children to die of starvation and lack of medicine, cause horrible suffering and destruction on purpose.  These are the people Jesus identifies as being like their father the devil.

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 05:01:59 AM
But, Dallas--I'm talking about the people who know, who have heard, who have rejected it --because their deeds are evil and they want to continue in their evil deeds because it gives them money, power, an inflated sense of self worth, makes them feel like God himself.  That is the way they like it.

What about them?  There are a handful of people who are suppressing all of humanity for their own ends.  They create wars, fund both sides, make a killing literally and figuratively, withhold technology, allow children to die of starvation and lack of medicine, cause horrible suffering and destruction on purpose.  These are the people Jesus identifies as being like their father the devil.

is it possible, as long as one continues to define the "world" by "good and evil" we will continue to see "good and evil".  When one defines the world through the lens of "unconditional love", the world changes.

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change".

Quote from: Dallas on June 29, 2008, 03:33:56 AM
The expression nations refers to non-hebrew and the expression earth refers to the hebrew.

I have never heard the description above, as "nations" referring to non hebrew and "earth" to hebrew.  do you come to that conclusion through scriptural comparison? or how do you come to that conclusion?? 

thanks for your reply, and I see as as basically "children" of the new covenant.  I think that's kind of what u were saying too. 

any way you look at it, imo; GOD is LOVE, and he is at PEACE with us.  I agree; we are not all at peace with HIM, but LOVE is exponential imo.


Glad to see ya back online. 

:grin: :grin:




:grin:

Quote from: laren on June 29, 2008, 06:20:29 AM

is it possible, as long as one continues to define the "world" by "good and evil" we will continue to see "good and evil".  When one defines the world through the lens of "unconditional love", the world changes.

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change".

No, --not and be in touch with reality. :sigh:

There is so much evil around--I don't know what else to call it.

I'm thinking more that people have to wake up to it.

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 06:35:44 AM

Quote from: laren on June 29, 2008, 06:20:29 AM

is it possible, as long as one continues to define the "world" by "good and evil" we will continue to see "good and evil".  When one defines the world through the lens of "unconditional love", the world changes.

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change".

No, --not and be in touch with reality. :sigh:

There is so much evil around--I don't know what else to call it.

I'm thinking more that people have to wake up to it.

Love without conditions, is a tough one to accept. 

Do you see God as loving without conditions??

I think he loves unconditionally, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know where to draw the line.


37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"--Matt 23

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 06:35:44 AM
No, --not and be in touch with reality. :sigh:

what's reality?? 

isn't it "your reality" seen through your perceptions??

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 07:51:03 AM
I think he loves unconditionally, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know where to draw the line.


37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"--Matt 23

But the line has been drawn and completed.  The old is done with; the new is here to stay.

at least from a fulfilled view. 

but I do understand your point of view also.

Hello Molly;

The reason those who have heard and haven't "changed" and continue on in sin haven't actually heard it. Just because someone proclaims the Lord's name doesn't mean they have.

Not only that, evil is a perspective. Hittler's followers thought of him as righteous. Those wth power are always considered holy or abominable depending on whoever is judging them.

QuoteWhat about them?  There are a handful of people who are suppressing all of humanity for their own ends.  They create wars, fund both sides, make a killing literally and figuratively, withhold technology, allow children to die of starvation and lack of medicine, cause horrible suffering and destruction on purpose.  These are the people Jesus identifies as being like their father the devil.

ActuLLY Jesus identifies the Jews as that;

John 8: 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

  38"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."

  39They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father " Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.

  40"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

  41"You are doing the deeds of your father " They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."

  42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

  43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

  44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."


Jesus is identifying the Jew for not being like Abraham and listening to God's truth. Just as Adam and Eve came forth from God yet they were obedient to the devil they were honoring the devil therefore He became their serogate father, this is what Jesus was chaging the Jew with.

As far as you personally judging who is evil, that's not even your right if you are claiming to be in love with Jesus;


2 Corinhians 5:14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

  15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

  16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;"

Jesus died for all, therefore all died. He was raised for all therefore they were all raised. That is why none are recognizable to us who know Christ according to there own standing. To us we only see them as raised unto perfection.

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 03:56:15 AM
Hi Dallas--could you just explain to me, if everything is completed and Jesus is reigning--why is the world in such bad shape with unspeakably evil people still running around doing unspeakably evil things?

I'm still confused by what you are saying, I guess.

I expect his kingdom to rule on earth one day.

I think this a very valid question.  I participate at a universalist/fulfilled forum where these type of questions can further be explored for any interested.


www.talk-grace.com

QuoteI have never heard the description above, as "nations" referring to non hebrew and "earth" to hebrew.  do you come to that conclusion through scriptural comparison? or how do you come to that conclusion?? 

thanks for your reply, and I see as as basically "children" of the new covenant.  I think that's kind of what u were saying too. 

any way you look at it, imo; GOD is LOVE, and he is at PEACE with us.  I agree; we are not all at peace with HIM, but LOVE is exponential imo.


Glad to see ya back online.

Spiritual Coomparison? What is that?

Just as many words develop throughout scripture, like water and fire and more and more types and shades of dynamics are added to the significane of the meanings until an ultimate giant concept is displayed.

Have you read the chapter on prophetic language by David Chilton in his book Paradise restored? If you have you'll get what I'm talking about, if not, definatley read it. I'll post some of it here...

Quote from: Dallas on June 29, 2008, 08:29:44 AM

QuoteI have never heard the description above, as "nations" referring to non hebrew and "earth" to hebrew.  do you come to that conclusion through scriptural comparison? or how do you come to that conclusion?? 

thanks for your reply, and I see as as basically "children" of the new covenant.  I think that's kind of what u were saying too. 

any way you look at it, imo; GOD is LOVE, and he is at PEACE with us.  I agree; we are not all at peace with HIM, but LOVE is exponential imo.


Glad to see ya back online.

Spiritual Coomparison? What is that?

Just as many words develop throughout scripture, like water and fire and more and more types and shades of dynamics are added to the significane of the meanings until an ultimate giant concept is displayed.

Have you read the chapter on prophetic language by David Chilton in his book Paradise restored? If you have you'll get what I'm talking about, if not, definatley read it. I'll post some of it here...

I tried reading some of Chilton in the  past, but i really struggle reading stuff off internet, rather than paper. 

I would love for u to post some of it re: this question.

"spiritual comparison", ha, ha "scriptural" is what I meant, actually what i wrote i think; i'll go check.

but basically what u said; as you read verses, one gets a clearer understanding; 

Quotewhat's reality?? 

isn't it "your reality" seen through your perceptions??

well, I think those that practice brainwashing would like us to think so--that reality is somehow malleable--but I disagree with that,-- reality is a child's leg blown off and a mother's tears.

QuoteBut the line has been drawn and completed.  The old is done with; the new is here to stay.

I agree that the new is here to stay, but I don't see where it is running the world yet.

QuoteJohn 8: 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you

Quote16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;"

Jesus is saying we are identified as Abraham's children according to the spirit, not the flesh.  Abraham's children would honor Christ as their father did.  It is the children of the promise who are Abraham's children--and, that, by the grace of God.

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

QuoteAs far as you personally judging who is evil, that's not even your right if you are claiming to be in love with Jesus;.....

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;"

I think it might be ok to judge by the spirit.  Wouldn't that be judging in righteousness?  How else are we to learn to discern between good and evil as Paul exhorts us to do?  I think that when we see lies, we are suppose to name the truth, when we see evil, we are suppose to expose it to the light.  It worries me that Christians bounce between being too self righteously aggressive and too passive, leaving everything to God.  Aren't we the agents of Jesus Christ on this earth?


1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
How else are we to learn to discern between good and evil as Paul exhorts us to do? 

but during Paul's time, "good and evil" were still  present.  Old covenant and new covenant existed side by side. 

Fulfilled view comes from the perspective "all is fulfilled", and the Old is done away with.  The "Ishmaels" have been judged. 

We are no longer to discern between "good and evil" as LOVE rules.

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
reality is a child's leg blown off and a mother's tears.

a child' leg blown off is just that, "a child's leg blown off".

a mothers tears, are just that, "a mother's tears".


It is the "judgement", interpretation; perception of reality that defines it as "good and evil".

Quote from: laren on June 29, 2008, 08:46:00 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
reality is a child's leg blown off and a mother's tears.

a child' leg blown off is just that, "a child's leg blown off".

a mothers tears, are just that, "a mother's tears".


It is the "judgement", interpretation; perception of reality that defines it as "good and evil".

So do we agree that there is such a thing as 'reality'?

And, if we do, if I cause that child's leg to be blown off and that mother's heart to break, am I then able to be judged 'evil'?

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:38:09 AM

well, I think those that practice brainwashing would like us to think so

but transformation come through the "renewing" of our mind, not through the "change in reality"

Quote from: laren on June 29, 2008, 08:41:56 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
How else are we to learn to discern between good and evil as Paul exhorts us to do? 

but during Paul's time, "good and evil" were still  present.  Old covenant and new covenant existed side by side. 

Fulfilled view comes from the perspective "all is fulfilled", and the Old is done away with.  The "Ishmaels" have been judged. 

We are no longer to discern between "good and evil" as LOVE rules.

Well, that's what I'm saying--I don't see that.  I don't look around me and  see love anywhere.

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:49:53 AM

Quote from: laren on June 29, 2008, 08:46:00 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
reality is a child's leg blown off and a mother's tears.

a child' leg blown off is just that, "a child's leg blown off".

a mothers tears, are just that, "a mother's tears".


It is the "judgement", interpretation; perception of reality that defines it as "good and evil".

So do we agree that there is such a thing as 'reality'?

And, if we do, if I cause that child's leg to be blown off and that mother's heart to break, am I then able to be judged 'evil'?

Reality, as in "physical, external events happen", yes there is that reality.

If u are the cause of the leg to be blown off, then no i would not say u are "evil" or should be judged as evil.  

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:52:20 AM

Quote from: laren on June 29, 2008, 08:41:56 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
How else are we to learn to discern between good and evil as Paul exhorts us to do? 

but during Paul's time, "good and evil" were still  present.  Old covenant and new covenant existed side by side. 

Fulfilled view comes from the perspective "all is fulfilled", and the Old is done away with.  The "Ishmaels" have been judged. 

We are no longer to discern between "good and evil" as LOVE rules.

Well, that's what I'm saying--I don't see that.  I don't look around me and see love anywhere.

I believe you.

well i've got to get up in 4 hours. 

talk later.

QuoteIf u are the cause of the leg to be blown off, then no i would not say u are "evil" or should be judged as evil.

So there is no such thing as evil?  And no such thing as justice?

QuoteI believe you.

well i've got to get up in 4 hours. 

talk later.

Ok.  sleep fast lol.   :cloud9:

Evil is evil, but there are many people who do evil, who themselves are not evil. There is bundled up in the minds of men, constant either/or fallacy, in which 'grey' or 'colour' does not exist, only black and white. That doesn't mean that evil is still not evil, we just are unable or unwilling to see an alternative.

Not black and white, you say--people have families, jobs, and lives--nobody is perfect.  Yet, every man will come to a point where he must tell the truth or lie, and any truth that matters is always costly.  What decision will he make?  Whether to take the easy way and lie, or risk everything to tell the truth,--this is where the rubber meets the road.



Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 07:51:03 AM
I think he loves unconditionally, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know where to draw the line.

Contrary positions presented together, with one another...

(1) You first state HE LOVES UNCONDITIONALLY...

(2)  then you have Him DRAW the LINE, which is a, ...CONDITION...

As I observe it, this verse displays the blindness which GOD ordained Israel to have Molly:

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2008, 07:51:03 AM37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"--Matt 23

This Blindness of CHRIST in ISRAEL, is IMPOSED upon them BY GOD, and in the chronology of the manifestation of His PURPOSE in TIME, is later LIFTED from them, ...BY GOD ('till you say', "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord")...

Paul notes this "lifting" ...(Rom 11:25-33)... GLORIFYING His COMPLETE, IMPARTIAL, ...and ALL ENCOMPASSING Salvation... Placing the First (Jews) as last, and the Last (Gentiles) as first...

Yes, He draws the line--as in 'cut off.'



20 Then the LORD said: "I have pardoned, according to your word; 21 but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD— 22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it.



26 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 27 "How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. 28 Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30 Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. 31 But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection. 35 I the LORD have spoken this. I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.'"
36 Now the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him by bringing a bad report of the land, 37 those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the LORD. 38 But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive, of the men who went to spy out the land.

--Numbers 14



John 8:21
Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2008, 01:20:12 AM
Yes, He draws the line--as in 'cut off.'



20 Then the LORD said: "I have pardoned, according to your word; 21 but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD— 22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it.



26 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 27 "How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. 28 Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30 Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. 31 But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection. 35 I the LORD have spoken this. I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.'"
36 Now the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him by bringing a bad report of the land, 37 those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the LORD. 38 But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive, of the men who went to spy out the land.

--Numbers 14



John 8:21
Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

so Molly,

you say that you see the "Ishmaels" and the "Isaacs" are still existing side by side still.  We are told who the "Ishmaels" are:

Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So, just who are these "Ishmaels" in your opinion?  Who is that God made a covenant with, now; that still are living under that covenant (out of ignorance).

Who do you see these "Ishmaels" as??



And how do you handle all the scripture referring to the "soon" coming of Christ to abolish the old, which was "vanishing away, yet still defer it to 2000 plus years. 

Were the apostles wrong in their time predictions??

Heb 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Act 3:24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

1Pet 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times  for you.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but [u]now[/u], once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Interestingly to me, that in Matthew, Jesus says no one knows the "hour", but yet less than 40 years later; it "is the last hour". 

Dan 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Mt 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation  will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jn 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me.  Because I live, you will live also."

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Heb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

why would James tell them to be patient "until" the coming, if the coming wasn't yet for more than 2000 years.

1Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Phil 4:5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

1Cor 1:4-8 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, That you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.


and on and on....


I understand your view, by looking at the world and applying your paradigm to it. 

but;

I have a hard time seeing that all these "imminent" scriptures are yet to have happened;


these types of scriptures have led me to question my paradigm.

Hi Laren,

I see the 'Ishmael' as the flesh.  God's covenant [with Abraham] was with the spirit.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


The apostles were right--soon is soon--or 'quickly-'-and, they did, indeed, see the resurrected Christ.

From the time Christ began his ministry, the kingdom was 'at hand'--right next to you.


These are the 'last times,'  'the ends of the ages.'  So has it been for 2000 years (two days).

The antichrist reared his ugly head while Jesus was still walking out his ministry.  He is still present in the world now.




Jn 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also."

Those who know Jesus, do see him.  It is his spirit we are seeing and comparing to every other spirit in the world--using it as a touchstone.  Some who are more fortunate see him fully realized in his resurrected body.

QuoteI understand your view, by looking at the world and applying your paradigm to it. 

I don't have a 'paradigm.'   I just look and see what I see.

QuoteI have a hard time seeing that all these "imminent" scriptures are yet to have happened;

They have happened to thousands of people.  But the world is still ruled by satan--at least on the surface of things.

Quotethese types of scriptures have led me to question my paradigm.

Not sure what this means.  Just because the mountain of God has not yet filled the world doesn't mean that it isn't in the process of happening.  Do you have a new paradigm?

Hi Molly;

QuoteBut the world is still ruled by satan

That's you're whole problem...one day you will believe in Jesus. But it doesn't sound like it will be for awhile.

Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2008, 06:09:12 AM
Hi Laren,

QuoteI understand your view, by looking at the world and applying your paradigm to it. 

I don't have a 'paradigm.'   I just look and see what I see.

this brought a smile to my face Molly



paradigm:
A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.

 

Quote from: Dallas on June 30, 2008, 06:58:28 AM
Hi Molly;

QuoteBut the world is still ruled by satan

That's you're whole problem...one day you will believe in Jesus. But it doesn't sound like it will be for awhile.

We may have some different POVs within scripture, but Molly's a believer in Jesus...let's stay focused on issues :)   :swordfight: James.

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2008, 01:20:12 AM
Yes, He draws the line--as in 'cut off'

Your view still remains from the NATURAL perspective Molly... JESUS CHRIST from the SPIRITUAL perspective said:  "It IS FINISHED..."  (the word "IS", indicates the ETERNAL and SPIRITUAL perspective)

Something that IS FINISHED, needs no further action...  :dontknow:

That which is "cut off" (because of affiliations with the "NATURAL"), ...ARE grafted IN by His (from the SPIRITUAL perspective) completed mission...

As far as TIME bound observations which note men still going through the process, ...these are seen from a finite perspective which is YET viewing in the NATURAL...

When you begin to observe from the ETERNAL perspective... you see such as: (2 Cor 5:19 / 1 Tim 4:9-11 / John 3:16-17 / John 1:29)  These and many more indicate ETERNAL perspective... GOD so LOVED the WORLD and does not change, meaning He STILL LOVES the World, and ALWAYS WILL LOVE the WORLD...etc.

ETERNAL perspective:

JESUS CHRIST ..."took away" the SIN of the WORLD (John 1:29), it is therefore NO LONGER an issue (2 Cor 5:19) and "It IS FINISHED" (John 19:30)... etc.

Which is WHY we must LOVE our enemies... for ALL are indeed, our brothers and sisters which ARE (not "will be") found within the ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE...  :thumbsup:

There are people today who struggle with having boldness regarding the security of their salvation. This is because they (also like me) have been taught by man that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God is only valid in putting away their sins "if they choose it."

But the fact is that God required a perfect blood sacrifice in order to do away with ALL sin. And that is what He did at Calvary.

It means that the whole world is covered in blood. The blood of the Lamb.

So do all walk in righteousness? No, at this time we only see Jesus.

Every man's work shall be tested through the fire of God, which will burn up all the hay, stubble and that which cannot stand. And for those who spite the blood they are now covered in, that is not good.

What may be worse, is that many refuse Christ because they have been taught that they are not covered in the blood until they "choose it." And so they rebel.

But they are not being asked by God to "choose it." That is not what sacrifice nor grace are all about. Grace means that we didn't deserve it. And, of course, no one deserves to be covered in the blood. Yet we ALL are covered in the blood, because HE LOVED US FIRST.

And since we have all been reconciled to God through the cross, we are now to encourage one another in walking in holiness. (That's not about being "saved by works" because no one is saved by the works. -We are to walk in righteousness because we have been purchased by precious blood. That's obedience and love as a natural response to the goodness of God towards all mankind!)

See the difference?

Love to all,
Brian

You got it Brian!  :icon_king: :icon_queen:

I believe that's why Jesus Christ was the LAST Adam. We (the world) are not in Adam any longer. The Blood Covenant now covers all flesh.
Now we still see the shadow of what sin was; but God has put all sin away.
And now that He has washed the whole race of mankind in His blood, He is calling us to walk with Him and obey Him.

That's why I can say today that we will all make it in. Because He has cleansed us all. Hallelujah!!

Love to all,
Brian

You may be absolutely, completely right.  So don't see this as an argument, but as an expression of current understanding.  I see that all will come to God and that all sin will be eradicated.  Please give me a thought-out answer (whoever) to this, again not as arguing.  If I went next door and brutally murdered my neighbor, from the "total-inclusive" POV, how would God view that?  As "sin is gone, completely put away", or I would be forgiven and purged of it as part of the ongoing process of God's plan(s)?  God's blessing, James.

Interesting (to me) observation.  I notice within UR believers there is still a pretty clear-cut difference in POV between those that believe Jesus will drag all and will save all, vs. those that believe it's already totally been done.  As I see it, 1st group is "provision made, in progress, will be completed", 2nd group is "totally done deal, no sin, all already saved".  And these are all people that love Jesus, believe in Him, trust Him, and believe He is the Savior of the world...but with different understandings, paradigms.

I see it as was and is and is to come.  :cloud9:

From the POV that all will have their works tried through fire, it's not sin as a barrier between God and man that is a problem. In the old testament, sin put a barrier between God and man. (Strangely, still today almost all of Christendom claims that there is still a barrier of sin between God and man. They don't see the sacrifice!!)
But through Jesus Christ, God has put away sin.

So you're question about sinning is somewhat errant. Sin is not the problem. The "problem" is that what we sow is what we shall have when we stand before God. If we sow unrighteousness in this life (ie. killing our neighbor), the flames of purification will be hotter.
In fact, judgment may be more "severe" than if there were still yearly sacrifices. This is because the perfect sacrifice has been provided, and yet man spites this Gift.
In reality, Christendom doesn't understand the Gift, and it teaches that we still need to be forgiven, when we are all actually already covered.

Paul, in his letters/epistles, gives a lot of commandments. Do this, do that, don't do this..... Seems like the law? Well, it would, except that the restitution has been made. God is now calling all men (and women :) ) to walk in righteousness.

Still, many spite this calling, or don't understand that they are under the Blood. And that's no little thing!


I'm writing this, but still trying to understand what I myself am writing. Or maybe I don't fully understand it.
The only thing I'm thinking about is, what is making a sacrifice all about? (For we know that grace is UNMERITED favor.)

Love to all,
Brian

Nah, it makes sense...not sure it's the absolute "final, total answer", but it makes sense...Not sure the question is errant  :wink:, because you would agree that killing my neighbor would be a sin, right?  It's really then about how God views it and deals with it, and I s/w understand your answer to that.  I'll think about it....right now, this date, this moment, I really think I'll end up (probably already there to some degree) somewhere in the middle...the was, is, will be that Craig mentioned, which surely includes much of your POV....we'll see, God will probably surprise me.  Thanks.

P.S.  Also Brian, in this paradigm, if it was you that murdered your neighbor...would you think "I messed up, I need to live more righteously (and/or including looking to Him for your righteousness/help you live right, etc), or confess your sin/ask God's forgiveness then do the above?  Something "smaller" even...curse word/"unclean communication"...in your POV is it "I need to not do that", or "God forgive me of my sin"?  I really am thinking about this, not just messin' with you  :happygrin:...God's blessing, James.