Will you guys answer this question for me please? It is a hypothetical question.
What would be the end result of humanity if Jesus had decided NOT to die for us?
Thanks....
Debbie :grin:
Hey Debbie, that's an excellent question and I will try to answer it somewhat.
From my understanding of sin and death, if Jesus hadn't died for our sins we would just go back to the grave and be no more. It was only becasue of Jesus resurecction that we have hope for our own resurection from the dead.
Hey Debbie,
I think shibboleth said pretty much what I would say except, for Jesus not to die, wasn't in the plan, thank the Lord for that. :happy3:
CHB
Yep. From dust we came to dust we would have returned permanently.
Quote from: dboutwell on January 07, 2008, 05:20:18 AM
Will you guys answer this question for me please? It is a hypothetical question.
What would be the end result of humanity if Jesus had decided NOT to die for us?
Thanks....
Debbie :grin:
I think God would have gotten someonelse to do it, Salvation is the Fathers Idea, not Jesus.
Peace.
OK...thanks guys. I agree with you.
Mickiel,
Yes, it was the plan all along, that's why I made the comment about it being a hypothetical question. It helped me to see that death was the wages of sin, not eternity in Hell. I am hoping it might help some others too. :grin:
Debbie
Did Jesus really die for our sins?
Search "die" AND "sins" e-sword MKJV
Joh 8:21 Then Jesus said again to them, I go away, and you shall seek Me and shall die in your sins. Where I go, you cannot come.
Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,
Only Paul seems to mention it once.
"Sacrifice" AND "sin(s)":
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right of God,
Heb 9:26 (for then He must have suffered often since the foundation of the world), but now once in the end of the world He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Have we been taught wrong? Was His sacrifice for us or was it a model?
Heb 10:8 Above, when He said, "Sacrifice and offering, and burnt offerings and offering for sin You did not desire, neither did You have pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law),
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
Was Jesus' life and subsequent death only a model of what we have to follow? What is the knowledge of the truth? Did Jesus die to appease an angry God or was His death merely a sign to usher in the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh as Joel prophesied?
What is the knowledge of the truth?
Is it not the fact that the way Jesus showed us to the Father is THE truth?
I expound on this more in the new bible studies board (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?board=98.0).
If sacrifice of animals was not acceptable to God and He did not desire it, why then sacrifice His own Son? We have been taught that this abrogated the law putting away blood sacrifice forever but maybe that is as much as what His death meant, the passing of an age.
1Pe 3:21 which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
We may spend too much focus at the cross and not enough at the empty tomb, therein lies our hope, not in His death. He lives therefore we have hope.
Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.
The reconciliation was the abrogation of the law and not so much His death.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:
Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;
Who was the type, Moses or Adam?
Rom 5:15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
The grace which Jesus taught is available to all, who's grace? God's!
Rom 5:16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)
Reign in life by One? Is that not Christ within us?
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
Jesus was obedient. His life was a model to follow.
Rom 5:20 But the Law entered so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound,
Rom 5:21 so that as sin has reigned to death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Forgive me for putting a new slant on everything today. I just think many are still locked into the traditional teachings. Since early this morning I am seeing scripture on a whole new level.
In the bible studies board I show that perhaps, we collectively are the Christ just as we collectively are His body.
IMO we have too long been led to be satisfied that He Jesus paid the penalty getting us off Scot free. Yet as we in CU believe there is no hell, what was Jesus to be sacrificed for then? This is a question the ET folk pose to us and we have no answers.
Did Jesus die to appease an angry God? If Jesus was God incarnate then He sacrificed Himself to appease Himself kinda weird when you think of it.
If the blood sacrifice of animal did not take away sin, why then would the sacrifice of a man Jesus be better atonement? Was blood sacrifice not very pagan?
Have we not taken the Good News and teach the sacrifice of Jesus aka shedding of His blood for our sins make it seem no less barbaric that that of the pagan religions?
If we hold to the idea He died because of our sins then we will ask questions as to what would be the case had He not died. The fact that He died was irrelevant IMO, however His life and teachings and His subsequent resurrection is where one should focus.
If we do not believe in the traditional hell, and we believe he came to save us from our sins not to die for them, then we need to ask, have we progressed deeper into the truth or are we just saying there is no hell w/o considering the real GOOD NEWS?
Father Loves us in spite of us.
Blessings
QuoteWe may spend too much focus at the cross and not enough at the empty tomb, therein lies our hope, not in His death. He lives therefore we have hope.
You got it. Our salvation did not come by the cross, but through the resurrection of the dead. Our reconciliation came through the cross, which brought salvation through the resurrection of the dead.
oppossed to GOING back to the grave....WE would remain there....
we STAY IN DEATH......till the body departs...DEATH is MORE THAN DYING...
Blessings
Thanks guys for answering my question. I just wanted to be sure I was looking at it correctly. I know there is much more to go into than just physical death, but the people I hope to give some "light" to don't think about things like that too much, if at all.
My family and friends are Hell people. I thought if I could get them to see that Hell was not the result of Adam' sin, that death was, that might help them to open up a little to the thought that the Hell teaching may not be what it's cracked up to be.
They were raised here in the South like I was and most of these discussion would be over their heads as they are also mine. It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if animal sacrifices were the right thing or not, God didn't see fit not to have them talked about in detail in the Bible, so, I just don't worry about it.
As long as I know I am loved, along with every other person in the world, by a responsible creator who can change me for the good I am OK with all the details I am not educated enough to understand.
Debbie :grin:
Quote from: dboutwell on January 12, 2008, 05:39:39 AM
As long as I know I am loved, along with every other person in the world, by a responsible creator who can change me for the good I am OK with all the details I am not educated enough to understand.
Debbie :grin:
I hear ya, sister! :girlheart: