question

[jabcat]

I think that the message of this board is that Jesus is saving all, gathering all into the all in all. All are not yet saved...gathered. They will be saved...gathered each in there own order. If all were already saved, there wiuld b no need to offer a warning to adversaries, as Jesus and the apostles did.

There is a veil yet to be torn. The gospel is tearing it, thru the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This the message of the board and it is up to the moderators to decide when duscussion becones disputation of these basic facts upon which we stand. We exercize a lot of leeway in discussion, but disputation of the need for salvation abd continuing sanctification as diciples is where we draw the line. That is how I c it.James, as senior moderator can weigh in on that.

You said it like it is.

[Seth]

So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

See I think where our main difference lies is in what we consider to be salvation. I consider salvation to be an actual being set free from sin and (spiritual) death. (Like in the here and now, experientially, not simply upon physical death.) What brings about that salvation, experientially, is faith in the Truth. And certainly when one has faith in the Truth (being led by the Spirit), their "works" will show it.

I do not see the Father as counting faith or works as "good", unless they are in the Truth, and He only considers them to be " good" because they set His captive beloved children free. A person can "love their neighbor" (in falsehood, trying to be "righteous") and be as sinful inside as a devil worshipper. The " works" are just filthy garments, done from an impure motive. In my opinion, God does not get angry at us for any of it because, as Jesus stated, we "do not know what we do". We are so blinded by our religious beliefs and the fear of hell that we do all of these things out of impure motives, to save our own behinds, rather than out of true hearts of compassion for our neighbors. (I am not saying all Christians do this, I am speaking of those that do. I know by experience because I belonged to this group for a good number of years. It wasn't until God set me free from the fear of Him and of hell that I was able to truly open my heart to Him again, and experience His love, for myself and all others. He is still working these things out in me, and I am so thankful for His salvation!!)

I don't find too much to disagree with in your above post. I absolutely believe in the same view of salvation as you and how works pertain to it for the BELIEVER. My difference with you would be if you are saying that belief an Jesus can be accomplished through living a good life for the UNBELIEVER. That the unbeliever can know him without knowing him is where we disagree.

[Patinak]

because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

Sheila,
I love this post. 
Your grand daughter, my daughter, at this point in time don't believe, however we have faith that this will change.
He is the savior of All.  One day they will enjoy 'life' when He draws them like He has drawn us, and their knee will bow and their tongue will confess, and He will be their God, and they will be His people. Amen.
Pat

[Gary Amirault]

Gee, it's been a while since I posted here. I haven't used an emoticon in years, I think I'll try one now. :HeartThrob:

I thought I would briefly let folks who are posting on this thread know what got this whole discussion board and the Tentmaker site going many years ago. Some of you may have read my testimony on http://tentmaker.org/testimonials/GaryAmirault.html

Believe me, there is a lot more I could share about how our Father and Creator got a hold of this former atheist than what is in that long testimonial. Anyway, when our Father transformed me in 1985, He plainly revealed Himself to me through His Son, Jesus, Yeshua, Iesus, Son of Man, Son of God. I experienced a love that is indescribable, a love that truly loves one's enemies. I was not introduced to a Buddha, Krishna, Great Spirit, Allah through a prophet named Mohammed. It was all about the One who died, was buried and rose again to "draw all mankind to Himself" and to set creation from from its bondage to corruption.

The Christian Bible contains a story that is phenomenal if one has ears to hear and eyes to see. Our Father is presently taking out a people from the Gentiles for His Name's sake. God only knows what happens in the next phase of His plan to bring all of mankind to immortality and incorruption. I'm sure it will be exciting and awesome. Anyway, I felt it was needful at this time to express briefly my views on God and His plan of redemption.

Tentmaker is focused on the Revelation of our heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus the Chosen One. That is what all the articles are about. That is what all the books are about. That is what all the videos and audios are all about. And that is the direction I ask the moderators of this board to keep the discussion focused on.

It is easy for people from all walks of life to express all kinds of beliefs. And the internet has many places to visit that express many viewpoints. Tentmaker discussion forum is Jesus-centered. The word "sin" is to fall short; to aim at a target and miss, fall short. My experience with Him (Jesus) and my understanding of Scriptures reveals Jesus to me as the Savior of all mankind who will restore all things, who will draw all mankind to His Father and ours. He will subdue all enemies the last one being death and then He will deliver creation to our Father that He (your Father) may be all in all. I truly believe that. I truly believe that THIS Father loves each and everyone of you who are reading this post with a love that your physical body is incapable of holding. I've experienced so much of His love that I thought I was going to bust! That is why you will one day receive a new spiritual body and mind. Our present body cannot hold all He has for us. We will all become one in Christ. I realize that some of you have not received this revelation and understanding. (I was an atheist through the age of 37.) So those of you who do not see this or do not agree, please understand, the moderators are moderating this forum on my behalf. And they do a wonderful job. Please make their jobs easy. There are thousands of sites on the internet that are open to discuss anything and everything, spiritual or otherwise. Tentmaker is not one of those. Thanks for your understanding. The Christian Scriptures say that our Father is Unfailing Love and that love is and was expressed on a tree outside of Jerusalem. Meet Him there. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all mankind to Myself. This He spoke signifying what manner of death He should die." John 12:32, 33. Friend, He really was resurrected on the third day.

[Dandelion]

There are thousands of sites on the internet that are open to discuss anything and everything, spiritual or otherwise. Tentmaker is not one of those. Thanks for your understanding. The Christian Scriptures say that our Father is Unfailing Love and that love is and was expressed on a tree outside of Jerusalem. Meet Him there. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all mankind to Myself. This He spoke signifying what manner of death He should die." John 12:32, 33. Friend, He really was resurrected on the third day.

Thank you, Gary.

Beautiful.....so glad to be here.

[rosered]

   Greetings to all ,
  I enjoyed   Gary's video  and agree with all of it ..

I love Jesus Christ everyone knows   me knows it is truth   as well as  Shelia Holly and others     whom confess Jesus Christ as their savior .


  I know every knee   will bow and confess to JESUS CHRIST  seeing him face to face  ......

  I know when we die    in the mortal  and corruptible body [being death itself ]     this physical death   , it is by no means the end of LIFE


For me , as I can  try to  explain  , those like    preachers and teachers   of salvation    , still lack the fullness of the LOVE OF GOD   in them

   To REALLY  know God is to love Him and we have   His Spirit  and the Spirit of Christ as a   HOLY THING   within us   and  Spirit of truth  is  speaking through  us .

Romans   8  9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I do believe in the  power of Gods Spirit which is Love   and sending His Son is the very proof God loves us,    in the here and now   and do not have to literally die    a physical death  to      receive   in Christ now His body of LIFE being Spiritual  and new creatures in Christ being the anointing   , that means separated and set apart  for Gods  use  and  has  victory over death      already .

Every form of death     ,  being the powers and principalities  seated in high places of this world and its wisdom    , that is in our own carnal  minds and hearts  seated throne ]  that deceives it ...........

ITS always been about the LOVE    the very core of      the gospel of Jesus Christ when you limit the LOVE OF GOD S  GRACE 

to only a few or yourselves     this amazing grace  and leave everyone else out in the cold , this is close to blaspheming the HOLY SPIRIT  to me the Very SPIRIT OF TRUTH

I personally  , and this is my belief  so far   .as be within me     GOD IS THE VERY SOURCE OF LOVE , no one can LOVE like God does  , unless they do have the   Spirit of God in Christ and everyone that has already been gathered in Christ already being the HOLY SPIRIT   OF ONENESS  , COMPLETENESS  and perfection
  and they are  as ONE  teaching us   ALL NOW     
     
When  Jesus went back to the    High place  with  the  Father as he was sent   from above   ,  to this lower place
where the wisdom of this world is  earthly sensual and devilish  and using the carnal minds ,which is death/corruption ,  as still    and  ruling  and reigning   being kings of   the earth  types  in those high places of the earth , JESUS CHRIST IS STILL     the LORD OF lords over them  or the Master of the masters       

We know  because God has though His Spirit of truth established this  great Loving grace   that covers all  sin and error   by His own work and ways though the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ
  because
By Him and though Him  all things were made ,  Can He not do as he wants with His own things ?   


John 1 ...2He was in the beginning with God.

3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men

COLL1 Christ Is Supreme
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
    He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
    in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
    and the things we can't see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
    Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
    and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
    which is his body.
He is the beginning,
    supreme over all who rise from the dead.
    So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
    was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
    everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
    by means of Christ's blood on the cross.
21 This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.

22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body.

As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

23 But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it.

Don't drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.

The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God's servant to proclaim it.



This  has convinced me  , being so small and  insignificant  and ordinary   in every way  , that GODS LOVE  will overcome  all things though Jesus Christ

and there will be nothing or no one whom can alter    this trust in God and His love for all mankind  , the incorruptible  and invisible  and yet  more real than any image  man ever made in his own mind against Him !
the   corruptible   image     has been shattered   and scattered to dust       and has put on Christ     the    incorruptible      Image of God   our Holy Rock of savlation   for all mankind

I just believe until   you can truly  understand   deep in your heart   the  depths of Gods love    there will always be a need for more and more of Him
and we are to keep praying for  those   whom  lack   the Love of God in their hearts  to the full and keep us also in that same LOVE OF GOD    growing in truth and grace   being    found    in  Jesus Christ  our testimony .



https://www.facebook.com/gary.amirault.1/videos/10205272663608294/?pnref=story

[lomarah]

A lot of life in that post Rose, beautiful. (If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.)  :HeartThrob:

I haven't meant to ruffle any feathers and I certainly love my Yeshua, more than ever. I do believe that all things are saved through Christ. And it makes no difference to me what anyone else believes in the sense that you are all my brothers and sisters, regardless of whatever differences! As He sets us all free from sin and death through His Love, may we "bear with one another in Love".  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

Amen...

[dajomaco]

I love the whole concept of mercy and forgiveness.
That only Jesus and the work of the cross reveals.

[eaglesway]

We all love the message of mercy and forgiveness, but this thread has been about whether there is salvation in any other Way.

Of course- Loving Jesus and being filled with His Spirit and mercy is the key to lifting up His name and glorifying God before men, but...

Confusing love and mercy with finding God through the alternate religions and philosophies of the world is not love and mercy or forgiveness. It is deception.

I have read every post thoroughly, as I usually do. I have responded as one who is not always sure what people are trying to say- because terminology varies.

But once I get the feeling that folks are not coming out clearly I will typically provoke the issue to get clear responses, because we proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord here and salvation through His cross and His name. We are not universalists in the sense that all faiths, or many faiths, lead to reconciliation and union with God. We do not believe all are already saved, altho we do believe the provision for the salvation of all is already made- all being gathered in through the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Of course there is wisdom in alternate religions and philosophies. The adversary is not stupid. We see from the garden, and the mount of temptation, that he operates by mixing truth with lies in order to undermine the the word of God.

We proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and if we take a stand for that, then we start to here all about the love of God- as if standing for Jesus as Lord and against Budhism or Hinduism or Taoism is somehow contrary to the love of God. I know God loves everyone. He loves Budhists- but He does not love Budhism or the distorted view of God it portrays or the false world view it defines.


Paul was a great lover of God and man, and fierce defender and teacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the face of every attempt to undermine the simplicity of the gospel and the glory of God in Messiah Jesus. He brought all things back to Jesus as Lord and Christ crucified, because that is the fountainhead of love, the Lamp upon the lampstand, the Day.

I also like to keep in tune with the Original Post, and keep the subject close to it.

Some are very uncomfortable with the idea of kolassis(corrective punishment) or the judgment of the wicked and the wrath to come. Their discomfort is with the scriptures themselves, because the scriptures, through Jesus and the apostles and prophets testify to these things, so we warn men as well as win them, becoming all things to all men that by all means we might win some- some saving with mercy, some saving with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

And this is all love and it is all from God the Father who made Jesus the cornerstone and the plumbline.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[rosered]

A lot of life in that post Rose, beautiful. (If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.)  :HeartThrob:

I haven't meant to ruffle any feathers and I certainly love my Yeshua, more than ever. I do believe that all things are saved through Christ. And it makes no difference to me what anyone else believes in the sense that you are all my brothers and sisters, regardless of whatever differences! As He sets us all free from sin and death through His Love, may we "bear with one another in Love".  :HeartThrob:

  We know you do  hon!!   love you Holly !   :HeartThrob:

   GOD is Love  and   is the  answer to every question and   solution to every problem  , one day all will Know Him   ,  what a joy that will be  :dsunny:

[rosered]

We all love the message of mercy and forgiveness, but this thread has been about whether there is salvation in any other Way.

Of course- Loving Jesus and being filled with His Spirit and mercy is the key to lifting up His name and glorifying God before men, but...

Confusing love and mercy with finding God through the alternate religions and philosophies of the world is not love and mercy or forgiveness. It is deception.

I have read every post thoroughly, as I usually do. I have responded as one who is not always sure what people are trying to say- because terminology varies.

But once I get the feeling that folks are not coming out clearly I will typically provoke the issue to get clear responses, because we proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord here and salvation through His cross and His name. We are not universalists in the sense that all faiths, or many faiths, lead to reconciliation and union with God. We do not believe all are already saved, altho we do believe the provision for the salvation of all is already made- all being gathered in through the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Of course there is wisdom in alternate religions and philosophies. The adversary is not stupid. We see from the garden, and the mount of temptation, that he operates by mixing truth with lies in order to undermine the the word of God.

We proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and if we take a stand for that, then we start to here all about the love of God- as if standing for Jesus as Lord and against Budhism or Hinduism or Taoism is somehow contrary to the love of God. I know God loves everyone. He loves Budhists- but He does not love Budhism or the distorted view of God it portrays or the false world view it defines.


Paul was a great lover of God and man, and fierce defender and teacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the face of every attempt to undermine the simplicity of the gospel and the glory of God in Messiah Jesus. He brought all things back to Jesus as Lord and Christ crucified, because that is the fountainhead of love, the Lamp upon the lampstand, the Day.

I also like to keep in tune with the Original Post, and keep the subject close to it.

Some are very uncomfortable with the idea of kolassis(corrective punishment) or the judgment of the wicked and the wrath to come. Their discomfort is with the scriptures themselves, because the scriptures, through Jesus and the apostles and prophets testify to these things, so we warn men as well as win them, becoming all things to all men that by all means we might win some- some saving with mercy, some saving with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

And this is all love and it is all from God the Father who made Jesus the cornerstone and the plumbline.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

  I totally agree John

We are sooooo  blessed , God is God  and though Jesus Christ will  all things be reconciled...

...4for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete....

Isaiah 2:11
The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.

Jeremiah 23:29
"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

2 Corinthians 9:13
Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.

2 Corinthians 11:20
In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


Lots of reasons to rejoice   in the victory of the Lord Jesus Christ       :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 Brother's, I never meant in anyway,shape or form..that I  ever thought that there is any other way

for salvation but through Jesus Christ. HE IS the Resurrection. I reasoned..any Indians,Buddhas' etc that have

not had the opportunity to know Jesus in this life[if not called in this life/or lived in area/time never heard of

Him] that had love for their fellowman..in the resurrection would have little problem in bowing and confessing

to Him.  Because we know His nature..and He is not a respector of persons,and looks on the heart of people


  I have full trust in His judgements..and the people of the resurrection/when He makes His judgements

known..will learn righteousness.


     I just got caught up in our conversations and spoke my personal pov...and not in clarity at that or detail.

  I didn't address it further because I didn't want to 'stir it up again' or seem to being trying to justify myself in

it........

    I know there is only  one way we are saved..and by whom. I do not nor ever have thought that.........

  all roads lead to God.

   I do believe that Father knows each and everyones individual circumstances far better than I or anyone else

  and I totally trust and know that He will have them saved and made into new creatures.

                             peace and  :HeartThrob:

   

[jabcat]

 :dsunny:

[rosered]

 
      :HeartThrob:

[gregoryfl]

  I didn't address it further because I didn't want to 'stir it up again' or seem to being trying to justify myself in  it........

It is good to know how to argue a point for the sake of heaven...

It is better to recognize how to end one.

How refreshing to read of someone recognizing that better recognition.  :HeartThrob: רעיתי אחותי (My dearest sister)

Ronen

[sheila]

ty  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Brother's, I never meant in anyway,shape or form..that I  ever thought that there is any other way

for salvation but through Jesus Christ. HE IS the Resurrection. I reasoned..any Indians,Buddhas' etc that have

not had the opportunity to know Jesus in this life[if not called in this life/or lived in area/time never heard of

Him] that had love for their fellowman..in the resurrection would have little problem in bowing and confessing

to Him.  Because we know His nature..and He is not a respector of persons,and looks on the heart of people


  I have full trust in His judgements..and the people of the resurrection/when He makes His judgements

known..will learn righteousness.


      :HeartThrob:

   

I agree with you entirely about that, and If it seemed I was speaking directly to you, I definitely wasnt :o)

Sometimes we lose track of the OP.

That is what I was responding to. The original poster posited that perhaps people in older times knew God through Zeus, and that perhaps Jesus was the prime deity of deities.


As I moderate the thread, the context is set by the original post.

People come and go in these threads, and perhaps not having the responsibility of moderation, do not read the context set in the original post and follow it through.

No one need to take my word for it, but I will state that I never, as much as is possible within me, am addressing my statements to a personal poster- I am responding to the context of the thread.

In a thread like "Just believing...." where Seth and I have had a long intense exchange- I am still trying to address the original post and the context of the thread rather than Seth in particular.

So..... I was speaking generally of pluralism, which is the crux of the original post, and rejecting that. I agree that God judges people who have never heard the gospel by the secrets of their hearts- and have taught that for over 20 years.

But the original post was not about that, and the original poster, in my spirit and perception-  is in danger of being carried away from the purity of the gospel by a deception.

It is therefore of paramount importance to me that in a thread such as this, not to get carried away as we usually do, running far afield into sublime aspects of God's overall judgment, but to stay on point AND BRING IT HOME to the original question, which has ramifications for the asker.

I would not usually even bring any of that up, but there are a few folks that seem to think this is about ideology or doctrine or pure contentiousness and are missing the point of the jeopardy that the original poster's hypothesis presents for any who would accept it.

I proclaim Jesus Christ without any shame or apology. i trust His wisdom and mercy and justice as a magnificent many faceted diadem of glory and ultimate redemption for all. But all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God are hidden in Him- and I know you also believe this.

It is simple for me, in that context, to insist on the unique position of Jesus and proclaim it, as a general principle in response to the OP :o)

[joeteekay]

This tent is truly a blessing. All giving, sharing, learning and in humility.

Psa_84:4  Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.

Psa_133:1   Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

[sheila]

ty EW   of course I had no idea.. :friendstu:


     jotekay;   Yes it is good.  God is soooo GOOD! :girlheart:

[joeteekay]

I agree with you 100% EW. It is also interesting the the OP poster never did get involved with this long and rambling (IMO) thread.
:Peace2:

[anti_nietzsche]

Hello people,

I thought I was gonna post an update.

In the beginning of this year it occured to me that many people have spiritual experiences. Including near-death experiences where they see Muhammad or Buddha and not Jesus.

I do not really believe in Zeus or Allah or Buddha, but something must have gripped these people and went with them through life. I believe it is the Spirit of God who is free and who talks in different languages so to speak. That is how muslims or buddhists can do good too because they yield to inputs of the Spirit of God that nudges them and creates the good that they enjoy.

But if you look through google images of Zeus, they are nearly universally ugly and seem cruel in their appearance. That is the thing with idolatry, there are no good idols and they do not have power. But when these people prayed to Zeus it could have been that the Spirit of God answered them and in any way these people too were loved by God and cared for. God just could not get through their idolatrous minds yet.

But if you go and research these old-time gods then you must necessarily try to contact them. It does not usually work but God can work an answer even if you have directed the prayer to Zeus. And there were those Zeus worshipers in history that did not seek an idol but a spiritual presence. That is how we get to even old deities like Zeus having to contribute their share to the image of God we have. Only that the real God is the Spirit and not someone sitting on the Olymp.

This is what I wanted to say. God bless you!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Eaglesway....I've only made it thru page 1 so far but something here you posted jumped out at me in a way I've never seen it before.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law , and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

What hit me was, to perish without the law, means means they are not accountable for the "small stuff" because until the law came we knew not what sin was. Their conscience would literally convict them of "big sins" like murder, but if they didn't do any "big sins", it appears to me they would not be held accountable because of ignorance. So if they do "right" according to the law they don't even know, it saws they will be justified as doers of the law, even though they don't know the law, because on that day God will judge the secrets (motives of the heart) of men through Christ Jesus.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? It looks like another really good reason to believe in UR to me.....Blessings....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Made it thru it all....wow....what a thread. Can I just say, Love Wins?  :laughing7: Blessings....

[eaglesway]

:cloud9: @ Eaglesway....I've only made it thru page 1 so far but something here you posted jumped out at me in a way I've never seen it before.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law , and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

What hit me was, to perish without the law, means means they are not accountable for the "small stuff" because until the law came we knew not what sin was. Their conscience would literally convict them of "big sins" like murder, but if they didn't do any "big sins", it appears to me they would not be held accountable because of ignorance. So if they do "right" according to the law they don't even know, it saws they will be justified as doers of the law, even though they don't know the law, because on that day God will judge the secrets (motives of the heart) of men through Christ Jesus.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? It looks like another really good reason to believe in UR to me.....Blessings....

Yes I do. Romans 2(of course) is a further amplification of Romans 1. There is a law of God that is written in every heart. it is the highest law, the law of love. IMO that is the conscience of man. A friend of mine used to express it like this:

Everyone will be judged by the light they received.