I just joined this forum tonight to ask a question about aion and its context use in describing things that are eternal. It looks like you have to get some posts before you can ask questions in another board, so I figured I'd post here first.
This is my story of hell (believing in it, that is). I'm sure some of you have similar stories and experiences. It's probably stupid for me to post this, since it doesn't completely fit in, and you'll notice it's not very organized - I wrote what I was thinking, and some of it I just needed to say because I've never really said it.
I have always believed in an eternal hell, until my belief in it got shaken very recently. I'm only 17 but I've probably thought way more about God than most people I know have. The idea of an eternal hell has caused me lots of stress and obsessive-compulsive tendencies, and I seem to be one of the few people I know who seriously think about it. All the Christians I know are very lukewarm, and if all of the Bible is true, then they are on their way to hell like 99% of the world. :( I can't believe people are really so careless about something so major--staying out of hell should truly be paramount to everything in our life; we should spend every waking moment trying to avoid it (yet I noticed Jesus spoke much more about hope, love and light than hell... hmmm). Sometimes I would get struck with waves of depression after thinking about it all--I'm sure I've worried away a considerable amount of time in my life (stress kills you, doesn't it?). I found myself wishing I was never born, wondering why the world was so cruel, thinking it was all some kind of sick joke--but I always made myself believe it was real and eternal. After all, if I get caught up in some other belief and lose my faith in Jesus, then I'm on my way to hell too.
I have been praying to God a lot lately, because I want to walk closer with Jesus, but I struggle with my sins and knowing what's sinful or not. Furthermore, I don't feel sorry for all the bad things I've done. I've been hoping God would hit me over the head with a frying pan (like those old Golden Corral commercials, you know?) and show me how wrong I was--so I could get on the right path. It seemed like nothing was happening, and if God wanted me to stay out of hell, I would have to do it myself. I had been worrying less about myself going to hell, sort of trying to softpedal it in my mind. After all, if I died in a car wreck on my way to church and I hadn't repented of all my sins--you know. You simply can't live every day worrying about something like that. Anyway, where I was going with this is, I feel like God may have answered my prayers. My family and I had just gotten back from seeing a Christian artist performing at our church, and while watching her I had a wave of depression as I thought about a vision of hell. When we got back I was looking in the programming guide on our DVR, and there was a program coming on MSNBC called "To Hell and Back". I felt interested enough to search for it online, to see what it was. At the time I was probably thinking it was a NDE or vision of hell, and now I'm not sure why I would want to watch that after worrying about hell so much anyway. After I read the online summary of it, it turns out, it was the program about Carlton Pearson and his Gospel of Inclusivism.
Maybe it was because I was so weary of hell that I felt like it might actually be the truth. For whatever reason, instead of dismissing it, I did some searching around and found Tentmaker. This really jump started my search for truth.
Now I really don't know what I believe. Sometimes I feel like Universal Reconciliation is the truth--it's all it could be. But sometimes I go back to thinking hell may be real. My latest feeling is simply "I don't know." I found a webpage that shows how the word aion is also used to refer to eternity relating to God, so I am less confident.
I guess I'm just having trouble imagining a God that would say "Love everyone because I love everyone--or else I will torment you for eternity." The problem is, I'm still not sure UR is true. If it isn't, what I just said is some serious blasphemy (but honestly, it's what I've been thinking lately anyway). :( My question for the seasoned members here is, are you 100% sure UR is the truth?
Basically I just came here to learn more information from people who know what they're talking about. I'm looking forward to discussing things with you all :)
Hi imwm
welcome to tentmaker. Post moved here as this is the place for it.
Blessings
Hi imwm
QuoteMy question for the seasoned members here is, are you 100% sure UR is the truth?
Yes. That is the short answer.
Suggest you do a little browsing now you can see all the boards. Best to read up as there are many topics covering your questions.
Being only 17, you have the benefit of not having too much ingrained into you already.
That said, it is not for us to convince you but the work of the Holy Spirit. We all still battle with weaknesses aka sins and if you feel no remorse for your sins, you will not find any here that say it is OK to sin. Sin distances you from God no mater how you look at it but God does not distance Himself from you.
Ur is not a list of do's and dont's or a Creed or a statement of faith. You will not find any here that will say carry on regardless as you will be saved anyway.
The principle of sowing and reaping remains and sin has consequences in this lifetime esp.
If you are for example very rude to people then eventually you will have no friends as a consequence for your behaviour people will either not be attracted to you or they will shun you. Maybe not a good example but you will get the general idea.
If you have not met Jesus yet and somehow focus only on the negative side then it is important to enter into a relationship with Him. Jesus came to save us from our sins.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS:
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Very 1st verse in the NT that speaks of "save"
He did not come to save us from Eternal Torment (ET) as ET is a Greco/Roman myth.
Read on a bit as suggested and ask away.
Blessings
QuoteBasically I just came here to learn more information from people who know what they're talking about. I'm looking forward to discussing things with you all :)
I look forward to it.
What exactly are you looking for? Is it education, experience, knowledge, an ear to listen, or all the above?
I am 28 years old, and I have been studying Scripture for the last 24 years, and living what was to be a Christian life, just as you mentioned. I saw hypocracy just about everywhere and I found Christianity always lacking the thing they boast about the most. Now, I cannot leave where I am, because I seen Jesus, and know Him. He has corrected me so many times, and my life has been blessed over and over for it. Yet, at age 18, I started my ministry and so privledged to see someone at age 17 asking the same questions and searching out for those answers.
So if you have any questions, I can give you a helping hand.
QuoteI found a webpage that shows how the word aion is also used to refer to eternity relating to God, so I am less confident.
In which I conclude:
AION may or may not mean indefinitive time even upto pertuality; or may or may not mean definitive time with absolute beginning and end.
It is the word AIONIOS which causes much of the problems for people.
AIONIOS is an adjective which describes a noun, which may or may not describe a noun as elonging to, coming from, resembling or befitting an indefinitive time even upto pertuality; or may or may not describe a noun as of, in, belonging to, coming from, resembling or befitting a definitive time with absolute beginning and end.
Essentially, in simple terms, Aionios is an ADJECTIVE in which the duration is fixed on the nature of the NOUN it describes.
Which after doing more research on hell over 4 years ago, a friend of mine gave me a book which tried to prove the perpetuality of an eternal hell. It was not until this month, the Lord told me to read it. As I was reading it, the author gave the most valuable reference concerning AIONIOS, that confirmed in me, that I am not alone in my understanding of the word AIONIOS. Pétavel-Olliff, Emmanuel, (1836-1910) who wrote in 1892, a book called, "The Problem of Immoratality" at age 64. Where he concludes, "AIONIOS is "An indeterminate duration of which the maximum is fixed by the intrinsic nature of the persons or things. Or the last ever so long - so long as they last!"" Which by the way, I was saying for a awhile now, good old grandpa Petavel-Olliff, gave me confirmation. I am now finding more and more theologians of modern and ancient times, have concluded AIONIOS to mean what Petavel-Olliff and myself know to be true concerning the word.
You have nothing to worry about concerning the AION, nor do you have to worry about AIONIOS. If Hell exists, it doesn't exist forever because all mankind will be raised. Revelation also tells us Hell will be emptied (some believe it is empty right now!) and it also says ALL WILL BE RAISED FROM THE DEAD! So if all are raised, none remain dead and death and the grave have no power, and perpetuality of hell does not exist!
Quote from: SeekerSA on October 16, 2007, 08:13:05 AM
Hi imwm
QuoteMy question for the seasoned members here is, are you 100% sure UR is the truth?
Yes. That is the short answer.
Suggest you do a little browsing now you can see all the boards. Best to read up as there are many topics covering your questions.
Being only 17, you have the benefit of not having too much ingrained into you already.
That said, it is not for us to convince you but the work of the Holy Spirit. We all still battle with weaknesses aka sins and if you feel no remorse for your sins, you will not find any here that say it is OK to sin. Sin distances you from God no mater how you look at it but God does not distance Himself from you.
Ur is not a list of do's and dont's or a Creed or a statement of faith. You will not find any here that will say carry on regardless as you will be saved anyway.
The principle of sowing and reaping remains and sin has consequences in this lifetime esp.
If you are for example very rude to people then eventually you will have no friends as a consequence for your behaviour people will either not be attracted to you or they will shun you. Maybe not a good example but you will get the general idea.
If you have not met Jesus yet and somehow focus only on the negative side then it is important to enter into a relationship with Him. Jesus came to save us from our sins.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
Very 1st verse in the NT that speaks of "save"
He did not come to save us from Eternal Torment (ET) as ET is a Greco/Roman myth.
Read on a bit as suggested and ask away.
Blessings
Thank you for your welcome, response, and moving this to the correct forum. First off I just wanted to clarify something here - I did not come here to look for a license to sin--and I agree about consequences of sin. I've just struggled with trying to make myself feel bad about things that really don't feel bad (does that make sense?). I do want to stop sinning, and try to, it's just that there are some things I've done in the past that I don't feel wrong about. I know it is an issue standing between me and God and that's why I was praying about it--so maybe He could help me know how wrong I was.
I just wanted to make it clear that that was not the reason I came here, or even the reason I was interested in UR in the first place. I think my problem is obsessing so much on God's judgment that I can't see His mercy or His love. Reading some of the testimonials on this site, I feel the same way. UR has freedom - that even if we do sin against God (again, not that I see this as a license to sin), we are not lost for eternity - that allows for people to look past hell. In other words, I think hell is hindering my relationship with God.
Craig, thank you for your response as well. I will respond to you soon (probably tomorrow), since it's getting so late here.
:smile:
Hi imwm
Sorry if I misread your 1st post and TY for explaining your position a little clearer.
Some have a perverted view of what UR is and that is why I said what you will and will not find here.
As for a long past sin, you do not now have to make yourself feel bad about it to get forgiveness. Penance is a RCC doctrine and is not of the bible.
If we have to pay in kind for every sin, we are under the law and not grace. By that I do not mean if you stole something and can return it, do return it, it is the right thing to do. However the sin small or big was paid for by the Cross, there is nothing we can add to it.
Guilt is something you are dealing with and that is a consequence. Seeking forgiveness deals with that if it is "only" a sin against God. If it involves someone else and restitution can be made even by a simple I am sorry that will also help you to deal with the guilt. Believe me, God in no way wants you to go through life feeling miserable about something you cannot change, that is why He sent His Son Jesus.
The word is clear in that he that does much wrong is forgiven much. God's Love is unconditional.
Blessings
Welcome imwm :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
:newb: :welcome: :drummer:
Welcome, imwm! :dsunny:
Seek and you shall find!
God loves you! :HeartThrob:
Welcome young one, I don't know if this is a male or female, but your age stuck me......how
marvelous that your mind so soon is on the things of God.
I would study, for myself............always realizing that YOU are the earth, in which at the beginning
is not "lighted" or given understanding til "God" speaks, "Let there be LIGHT!" Light meaning
understanding.
Study where you "do" now understand.........
Stay away from where you don't.........
Study where you are being blessed.........
Let the LORD feed you..........and not man........
Talk only to those the Spirit would lead you to...........avoid controversy.......exercise your
negatives to the Lord, He understand your downsitting "and" your uprising. He looks at your
heart....and He will teach YOU Himself......to recogonize His!
am I 100% sure?
yes
welcome imwm
the Holy Spirit lead you ... :HeartThrob:
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Imwm it seems we were known before Adam and Eve were ever created. God was not surprised at the fall of man. It's all part of his plan. Satan, did not create himself and set out to destroy God's works.
Yet, God allows him to... Mark 4:15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. How could Satan do this if it was not part of Gods' plan? Is God that weak? No indeed! How fair would it be to a simple man if a powerful spirit such as Satan came and took away the word sown in them? What chance would they have against him? We know the flesh it weak yet Satan is pure spirit.
Look here too.
Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
It appears some would have repented if they were given the mystery, Yet they were not given. Why?
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. HOW is this done? Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Now is there a time table?
Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
You have come to the right place Imwm, we all seek the truth here. We are learning just like you. We all still have much to learn and even relearn. I'm sure I don't have all the truth, I'm still searching like you.
Peace,
Paul
Welcome Imwn. Take your time and let it sink in. Read and post and enjoy the fellowship. If UR is the truth then you will know of a surety soon enough. Like John said, you don't need anyone to teach you because you have the anointing within you and He will lead you into all truth.
Blessings,
John
Our God is a God of love. Many young believers struggle with the people who he has "put to death" in the old testament, it is good to remember that our God has power to give life, to kill, and to raise again, so even though many feel that death is "horrid", to God it is merely a transformation, it is only horrid to our fleshy minds, to our spirit it is release.
To the question, is there a hell, well we should first define hell as we understand it. A place of torment, a place where one is seperated from God - this is a traditional understanding - and I can not deny that a place like this exists, because Earth (our current life), for those who do not believe in their salvation thru Christ, can easily fit this description, and even believers will be salted with fire. You shall stand by faith, if through lack of faith or littleness of it, one is unsure of their salvation, the free Gift then it is not assured to them (by their faith) because they are still unsure of it, if their faith in their eternal torment is greater than their faith in Christ on the cross, then they are condemning themselves and already in hell (I am speaking figuratively, kinda).
Here are a few verses that might speak to you:
John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the
Saviour of the world.
lets examine, saviour of the world - if conventional belief is correct then those who have died since the time of Christ to the present, who did not believe, are in this traditional hell - this would be most or at least less that 3/4 in a generous estimate, and this does not include the people from Adam till Christ. Also in our current world, less than 1\5 of people are christians, even less of these really believe, and then throw in doctrinal differences and nobody can agree. - conventional belief talks of a God and a Christ who tried to save the world, but has most certainly failed.
But, then it will come to you, that he is the savior to those that believe, and you will be correct, for those who do not yet believe are still condemned (even at this moment) and are currently seperated from God - but this does not take away from the fact that that Christ is the saviour of all men, eventually.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the
Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The simple truth is - if by Adam you were sentenced to death (all of us) - then you shall also by Christ, be made alive (all of us)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Yes, every man, each in his own order, all on the last day. All men to whom by Adam came death shall be made alive.
I am not really concerned with heaven and hell, but rather our life through Christ, our faith and hope and love, and if your faith is hindered by "hell", then it is an enemy to you currently. I do not understand everything (actually very little), but you will find that your statement
QuoteThe problem is, I'm still not sure UR is true. If it isn't, what I just said is some serious blasphemy
is not correct, for as we begin to walk in the spirit we search out all matters, even the depths of God, and this one (salvation of all) is an important one for those whom the spirit has led to it, now this doesn't mean that you should go to the front of your church and proclaim to others whom the spirit has not led to these questions, otherwise there will be much gnashing of teeth for you. This is your walk with God, God will also lead others who serve him in truth as he wishes, he is able. As for you, now led, to this truth, you will find, it is from the Holy Spirit, and you will never again be able to rest in the same place you were before (truthfully believing that 99 percent of people are doomed).
Here is a link to other UR scriptures
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=466.0
What is really important though is to remember that
all believers are your brothers and sisters in Christ, I have been led that there are many different understandings of things, but that not all are profitable, but as long as we can agree in our salvation thru Christ thru faith, lets be in agreement of that, as that is the Gospel and the most important thing, and let the Holy Spirit lead each of us into the other mysteries of wisdom, as we delight in wisdom. I speak to you about the salvation of all men
only because the spirit has already led you to it, had it not, their would only be strife, and God does use his servants to help each other. Again, I do believe also that salvation of all men was the original "good news", but we can't always be fighting with our brothers and sisters in Christ once we have believed this, I say this, because if you try to convince everybody of this there will only be much strife for you. If the Holy Spirit leads you to show a person then this is different, and that person is already ready to hear your news.
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcomes. I can tell right away this is a very loving and caring group of people! I will respond to some other posts later.
Craig,
Thank you for your kind and detailed response. I read some information on "aion" at your website and it did clear things up... especially the explanation that used the example of the King of Sparta. Up until I read that on your site, all the resources I had read on the word said it literally translated into "age," which may be true, but it certainly didn't explain how the word could also be used to describe eternal life, an eternal God, etc...
I think that really was my only question about the word. It's hard to believe the rebuttal of the arguments put forth by other websites is so simple.
But I also have trouble seeing how modern pastors, who do still learn Greek and Hebrew at colleges (they do still do that, right?) can overlook this.
Here is a page where a person makes the same argument I was originally asking about:
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/31003E.html
What I have to ask about this, then, is, aren't there some passages where the word most certainly does mean "age"? I think I remember reading one on TM relating to how long Jonah was in the whale.
Also, is what the author says on the unforgivable sin true?
The definitions:
Aion, a noun which describes a span of indefinite duration. Aionios, an adjective which discribes a noun to have an indefinite duration.
Some Aions are infinite, such as the Aion of God's rule. Some Aions are finite, such as a year or a day. Some things that are Aionios are perpetual, such as immortality and other things that are aionios end, such as a building project.
So Aionios simply means, it will last as long as it lasts and Aion simply means, an age indetermined.
Thanks for sharing imwn......I just read your opening post. I can relate to much of what you shared. It's strange because when I believed in ET.....I was so worried about going to Hell that I was actually experiencing a sort of Hell on earth. Thank God I was brought out of that world of FEAR.
Also, Craig thanks for explaining about Aion........I think that the explaination/definition you presented is probably the best one I've read.
It's strange how time is so subjective......you know. Take for instance the criminals who spend a few day in solitary confinement.......let's say 3 days. Imagine experiecing being in a room for 3 days by yourself with no outside light or clocks. Those 3 days could feel like an eternity or they could feel like a couple hours.........IMO it depends a lot on the person and what emotional state they're in. Makes me think of Jonah and Jesus.
willieH: Hi IMWM... :hithere:
Quote from: imwm on October 16, 2007, 07:30:46 AM
I just joined this forum tonight to ask a question about aion and its context use in describing things that are eternal.
I'm gonna give you a quick look at my :2c: concerning the values of AION or its derivitive AIONIOS...
These 2 words first of all are FINITE in that they have a BEGINNING...
Keep in mind, that no matter what
anyone says to you... the ROOT word, will always remain greater than its derivitives...
The TREE is ALWAYS greater than its branches... CHRIST denoted this principle...
For example: The DEEP OCEAN is BLUE...
The Depth of the OCEAN, does not find equality with the OCEAN... the color of the OCEAN does not find equality with the OCEAN... the OCEAN is that which is described by the ADJECTIVES, ...DEEP and BLUE, and both of these describing elements, are found IN the OCEAN... but the OCEAN is greater than both its COLOR or its DEPTH at any given location...
Because ALL MEN are finite, ...NO MAN is able to grasp a SCENARIO (eternal) which is DEVOID of either BEGINNING or END... (which is what ETERNAL/ETERNITY actually entails)...
Any MAN endeavoring to do so, is speaking above his own head knowledge and EXPERIENCE, and is futhermore, endeavoring to sidestep this common inability ALL MEN share within our FINITE state... that being the inability to observe the ETERNAL, and comprehend it...
The word ETERNAL therefore, cannot be VALIDLY applied by or to anything which is finite... for ETERNITY/ETERNAL has no such limitations as ...beginning, end
or duration...
Neither can the word ETERNAL be Validly applied
BY MEN ...
TO MEN... for FINITE MEN do not have the ability to actually UNDERSTAND, nor convey the understanding... of something INFINITE
It would be something like a BLIND MAN, ...trying to describe the COLOR and STYLE of my shirt, ...the BLIND man is not equipped with the necessary comprehension and observational tool (sight) which is required to define or describe the color, OR style of my shirt... :dontknow:
Anyone who pretends to have the ability to VALIDLY apply ETERNITY, is decieved of himself...
AION and AIONIOS pertain to TIME... and TIME shall
end where it
began, ...in ETERNITY...
ETERNITY is not measured by TIME... For TIME is a CREATED entity which HAD a BEGINNING (First day - Gen 1:5), and shall have an END (Last day - John 6:44) and therefore cannot be VALIDLY noted by applying either of the words AION nor AIONIOS... even though MEN have applied the english word "ETERNAL" to both... :mnah:
Peace bro... :Peace:
In
JESUS
...willieH :trampoline:
Let's start with the crux of the matter. What for you is time?
Carl Sagan: Ever since St. Augustine, people have wrestled with this, and there are all sorts of things it isn't. It isn't a flow of something, because what does it flow past? We use time to measure flow. How could we use time to measure time? We are stuck in it, each of us time travels into the future, one year, every year. None of us to any significant precision does otherwise. If we could travel close to the speed of light, then we could travel further into the future in a given amount of time. It is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition.
Interesting eh??
BTW, good post Willie :thumbsup:........interesting about the ocean.
Strange how we use different/separate aspects of the ocean to define and measure what it is.
God says........I AM.......this to me seems all encompasssing and very difficult to put your finger on exactly what it means........ineffable.
Quote from: WillieHKeep in mind, that no matter what anyone says to you... the ROOT word, will always remain greater than its derivitives...
There is another view to this too.
Proposition #1.Nice comes from the Latin root word Nescius, which means "ignorant. (no offence intended)
Proposition #2The proposition: the rootword is always greater than it's derivitives.
If Proposition #1 is true and Proposition #2 is true, then..
The phrase, "What a nice day." actually means, "What an ignorant day."
Is that true? No, it is not.
Consider.
"What a nice day" means, "What a pleasant, agreeable, delightful, kind day."
Therefore Proposition #2 is not true.
The true proposition is: Words may derive from rootwords, but it's usage can be greater than it's rootword.
As John Westley Hanson wrote, "We are aware that nothing is more unsafe and treacherous than the guidance of etymology. An ounce of usage is worth a pound of it. Etymology is theory, usage is fact."
Craig
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 21, 2007, 04:34:40 AM
Thanks for sharing imwn......I just read your opening post. I can relate to much of what you shared. It's strange because when I believed in ET.....I was so worried about going to Hell that I was actually experiencing a sort of Hell on earth. Thank God I was brought out of that world of FEAR.
I am always surprised by how similar some people's experiences here are to mine. This is exactly how I felt, it was just like you said... hell on earth!
Quote from: Craig on October 21, 2007, 03:41:35 AM
The definitions:
Aion, a noun which describes a span of indefinite duration. Aionios, an adjective which discribes a noun to have an indefinite duration.
Some Aions are infinite, such as the Aion of God's rule. Some Aions are finite, such as a year or a day. Some things that are Aionios are perpetual, such as immortality and other things that are aionios end, such as a building project.
So Aionios simply means, it will last as long as it lasts and Aion simply means, an age indetermined.
Thanks again, that is helpful!
Does what the author of the webpage I linked to earlier have any validity in saying what he(?) says about the "unpardonable sin"?
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on October 17, 2007, 02:42:43 PM
Our God is a God of love. Many young believers struggle with the people who he has "put to death" in the old testament, it is good to remember that our God has power to give life, to kill, and to raise again, so even though many feel that death is "horrid", to God it is merely a transformation, it is only horrid to our fleshy minds, to our spirit it is release. . .
Good post, thanks for the interesting viewpoint. I think it's nice that you don't worry much about Heaven or hell--it seems like that's what Jesus was more about--showing His love and peace more than saving people (I don't remember reading anything about Him standing with sandwich-board "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL" signs outside of Starbucks). Jesus saved lots of people, but it seems like He was more concerned with love first, and saving people came as a result of that.
QuoteAs for you, now led, to this truth, you will find, it is from the Holy Spirit, and you will never again be able to rest in the same place you were before (truthfully believing that 99 percent of people are doomed).
I certainly hope not! :sigh:
Quote from: imwmBut I also have trouble seeing how modern pastors, who do still learn Greek and Hebrew at colleges (they do still do that, right?) can overlook this.
They do overlook it. I went to Bible School, I have a two year diploma and recieved the highest grade over-all for both years. My marks were flawless, without error. What can I tell you I learned about Bible School? You learn what the teachers tell you, you do not learn anything else. So how can a person overlook this? If the school is denominationally focused, then everything you learn is around that denomination, no more.
QuoteHere is a page where a person makes the same argument I was originally asking about:
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/31003E.html
What I have to ask about this, then, is, aren't there some passages where the word most certainly does mean "age"? I think I remember reading one on TM relating to how long Jonah was in the whale.
Also, is what the author says on the unforgivable sin true?
I will read the 'doctrine' and reply back to you with the answer. Unforgivable sin is rather funny, because it isn't what we think it is.
Hi imwm
A bit off topic.
Do a search in the NT on Love and then judgement, wrath etc. You will see there is a much bigger focus on the Love aspects of God.
I know you want clarification and that is OK. I tend not to go down the road as debate there is counterproductive. Father's Love is what tuns me on and I find ample evidence to support His Love nature as predominant to the "nature" of vengefulness.
You see man naturally is one of retribution, do unto others as they have done unto me, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. That is of satan and is cyclic.
Turning the other cheek breaks the cycle and satan is defeated. This is why vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord, He did not mean we are to forgive and He will meet out vengeance on our behalf. That is the sick mindset the church sits with yet they seem to overlook what Saul/Paul did.
Many Atheists quiz us on the horrible nature of God of the OT but I believe the Hebrews got some of their messages from God mixed up with their own theology. The killing of innocent women and children IMO were not commandments from God but recorded as God ordained to justify their own brutality.
Fortunately, the old covenant has passed and Israel no longer exists. Israel today is no way indicative of the Israel of the OT. The new Israel is the whole of creation and not some piece of real estate and inhabitants of the middle east.
Look at how God destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. He put an end to their quest for dominion once and for all. Stop all financial aid for Israel by USA Zionists and other countries, Israel will be overrun in days. BTW I am not anti-semitic.
Many in the churches today still look forward to a reestablishment of the old order viz. new Jerusalem etc. Little do they realise, this era is passed, never to return.
The RCC is well infiltrated by Zionists have led the church away from what God desires through His Son. There will be no other Messiah, He has come, is coming and will come.
Strange how Christendom holds the same view of vengeance as the OT believers do?
Blessings
Quote from: SeekerSA on October 29, 2007, 09:00:55 AM
Hi imwm
A bit off topic.
Do a search in the NT on Love and then judgement, wrath etc. You will see there is a much bigger focus on the Love aspects of God.
This is what I seemed to notice when I was reading my New Testament more regularly. Whether or not what people say about Jesus speaking more about hell than Heaven is true, He certainly seemed to be more about peace and love and joy than the wrath of God.
QuoteI know you want clarification and that is OK. I tend not to go down the road as debate there is counterproductive. Father's Love is what tuns me on and I find ample evidence to support His Love nature as predominant to the "nature" of vengefulness.
I do sort of think it's counterproductive but I feel a need to be "100% certain" as others have said they are. (I know you know this, just explaining further...). But I do think you are right, His love seems to be predominant.
QuoteYou see man naturally is one of retribution, do unto others as they have done unto me, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. That is of satan and is cyclic.
Turning the other cheek breaks the cycle and satan is defeated. This is why vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord, He did not mean we are to forgive and He will meet out vengeance on our behalf. That is the sick mindset the church sits with yet they seem to overlook what Saul/Paul did.
Many Atheists quiz us on the horrible nature of God of the OT but I believe the Hebrews got some of their messages from God mixed up with their own theology. The killing of innocent women and children IMO were not commandments from God but recorded as God ordained to justify their own brutality.
Fortunately, the old covenant has passed and Israel no longer exists. Israel today is no way indicative of the Israel of the OT. The new Israel is the whole of creation and not some piece of real estate and inhabitants of the middle east.
Look at how God destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. He put an end to their quest for dominion once and for all. Stop all financial aid for Israel by USA Zionists and other countries, Israel will be overrun in days. BTW I am not anti-semitic.
Many in the churches today still look forward to a reestablishment of the old order viz. new Jerusalem etc. Little do they realise, this era is passed, never to return.
The RCC is well infiltrated by Zionists have led the church away from what God desires through His Son. There will be no other Messiah, He has come, is coming and will come.
Strange how Christendom holds the same view of vengeance as the OT believers do?
Blessings
Good post, and I had never really thought of it this way. The thing I don't get though is how God can be just and turn the other cheek. I know Jesus paid for all sins, but it seems like there should be some justice for people who don't repent. What is your belief on this? Do you believe in a temporary hell after death, one during life, neither/or,...?
QuoteGood post, and I had never really thought of it this way. The thing I don't get though is how God can be just and turn the other cheek. I know Jesus paid for all sins, but it seems like there should be some justice for people who don't repent. What is your belief on this? Do you believe in a temporary hell after death, one during life, neither/or,...?
That my friend is still carnal thinking.
What I believe should not influence you at all and I say this with caution. Don't believe me, test it by the word and of the Holy Spirit. That said, I do not believe in a hell of any sort. Jesus paid the price in full, period. If we condemn (insert most horrific crime/sin/person here) then we condemn ourselves too. All fall short of the glory of God and that is why it is by grace and not by our good deeds.
Let me paint and analogy. You work for 25 years faithful, do the do's by the book, never offend anyone etc. One day something happens, you screw up badly, cost the company a fortune. What will people remember, the 25 years or the screw up?
Now we take that paradigm and place it on our god created in man's image then we get a similar result don't we?
But He is God, He is not a man that He should lie, His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways, thank God for that.
It is not natural for us to turn the other cheek, forgive our enemies etc. yet He commands us to do that. That we can only do by His Spirit and not by our carnal abilities. Once we have learned to exercise this gift, it becomes 2nd nature. It is called maturity. The flesh will naturally stand-up when hurt or threatened, it takes the Spirit of God to put the natural flesh under subjection.
See there is no sin too big for the cross, hence "It is finished"
As for repentance, not sure if I posted here or elsewhere, look up the meaning for repentance. It is in essence an "after the fact" occurrence. Churchianity teaches it as a "before the fact" occurrence and that is where it all goes pear shaped. That makes you responsible for finding God and not the (correct) other way around. In other words, it is a trap into the bondage of religion and religion is not what Jesus taught. If so, we would not have pulpiteers "gay bashing" or any other sinner bashing. They would know, Love covers a multitude of sins and that Love will "win" more people to Jesus than any judgement. The problem is that most folk walk around with this immense piece of timber in their heads, I call it the beam-in-the-eye ministry, everywhere they turn their heads, they just knock folk over with this unnatural extension of their adopted projection, I hope you see the picture I am trying to paint here. Here is a pic.
(http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Thumbs/ca/teaching/bible_bk/new_test/gospels/matthew/A%20man%20with%20a%20plank%20in%20his%20eye.jpg)
All the time looking for specks of imperfection in others.
What I share here is not UR unique, it is plainly what Jesus taught with no twists or further interpretation.
Blessings
What you said makes sense, I especially like the "beam in the eye" thing! :happygrin:
I've never had this viewpoint before but now that I think about it it makes a lot of sense.
What I still don't get is what the passages that talk about God having some kind of retribution/justice on sinners mean. You can see one of these sort of passages posted in Arguments Against Universal Salvation, Peacetroll just posted it.
What is your viewpoint on those?
Thanks :)
Hello imwm,
God's wrath is on the godlessness and wickedness of mankind who suppress the truth. More to the point, the Law brought death and anyone who broke the Law, was a sinner. Now to make something short, I will cut to the point. The purpose of the Law, was not to have retribution against sinners, though it brought retribution and justice on sinners. The purpose of the Law was a continual accumulation of revelation that no man could fulfill the Law and find salvation. In fact it got so bad, that many judgments came from God out of anger against mankind. We know the flood (water), and to some, we know Gehenna (fire). These judgments were all fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The Law and Prophets spoke only concerning him, and in order to save the Lost, the whole world recieved salvation. This is Justice, this is Retribution against the sinner. It seems topsy turvy, but this is the simplified answer. If it was not for God's retribution/justice on sinners, there would be no salvation for the world.
willieH: Hi Bernie! :hithere:
One heckuva GREAT POST bro! :goodpost:
Quote from: SeekerSA on October 31, 2007, 04:18:11 PM
QuoteGood post, and I had never really thought of it this way. The thing I don't get though is how God can be just and turn the other cheek. I know Jesus paid for all sins, but it seems like there should be some justice for people who don't repent. What is your belief on this? Do you believe in a temporary hell after death, one during life, neither/or,...?
That my friend is still carnal thinking.
What I believe should not influence you at all and I say this with caution. Don't believe me, test it by the word and of the Holy Spirit. That said, I do not believe in a hell of any sort. Jesus paid the price in full, period. If we condemn (insert most horrific crime/sin/person here) then we condemn ourselves too. All fall short of the glory of God and that is why it is by grace and not by our good deeds.
Let me paint and analogy. You work for 25 years faithful, do the do's by the book, never offend anyone etc. One day something happens, you screw up badly, cost the company a fortune. What will people remember, the 25 years or the screw up?
Now we take that paradigm and place it on our god created in man's image then we get a similar result don't we?
But He is God, He is not a man that He should lie, His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways, thank God for that.
It is not natural for us to turn the other cheek, forgive our enemies etc. yet He commands us to do that. That we can only do by His Spirit and not by our carnal abilities. Once we have learned to exercise this gift, it becomes 2nd nature. It is called maturity. The flesh will naturally stand-up when hurt or threatened, it takes the Spirit of God to put the natural flesh under subjection.
See there is no sin too big for the cross, hence "It is finished"
As for repentance, not sure if I posted here or elsewhere, look up the meaning for repentance. It is in essence an "after the fact" occurrence. Churchianity teaches it as a "before the fact" occurrence and that is where it all goes pear shaped. That makes you responsible for finding God and not the (correct) other way around. In other words, it is a trap into the bondage of religion and religion is not what Jesus taught. If so, we would not have pulpiteers "gay bashing" or any other sinner bashing. They would know, Love covers a multitude of sins and that Love will "win" more people to Jesus than any judgement. The problem is that most folk walk around with this immense piece of timber in their heads, I call it the beam-in-the-eye ministry, everywhere they turn their heads, they just knock folk over with this unnatural extension of their adopted projection, I hope you see the picture I am trying to paint here. Here is a pic.
(http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Thumbs/ca/teaching/bible_bk/new_test/gospels/matthew/A%20man%20with%20a%20plank%20in%20his%20eye.jpg)
All the time looking for specks of imperfection in others.
What I share here is not UR unique, it is plainly what Jesus taught with no twists or further interpretation.
Blessings
WELL SAID! :boogie: :bgdance: :egyptdance: :boydance:
Peace... :HeartThrob:
In
JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
Before we go on here, I sugest reading this article I posted on my Blog. Too long for a post but here is the lead in.
New Testament
The Distinction, Between History and its Interpretation
Robert D. Brinsmead
The NT authors tell a good news story about Jesus of Nazareth. That good news story is called "the gospel." Like any good story teller, the NT authors don't simply recite the history of Jesus or write up his biography. They invest that history with a certain meaning or interpretation.
This NT blend of history and interpretation helps us to understand why the NT contains diverse or even contradictory accounts of Jesus of Nazareth. It was inevitable that his history came to mean different things to different people. The Palestinian Christians saw him through very Jewish eyes, while the Gentile Christians saw him through the eyes of their culture and world-views. No story teller simply recites history, but he or she will invest that history with the kind of interpretation that brings it alive with meaning for both the story teller and the audience.
The whole point of this discussion is to draw attention to this fundamental distinction between history and its interpretation.
Read on Here (http://www.mychurch.org/blog/90719/new-testament---history-and-interpretation)
Quote from: imwm on November 03, 2007, 06:47:48 PM
What I still don't get is what the passages that talk about God having some kind of retribution/justice on sinners mean. You can see one of these sort of passages posted in Arguments Against Universal Salvation, Peacetroll just posted it.
What is your viewpoint on those?
Thanks :)
First off, I am not quite certain where Peacetroll's theology lies at present; but it is not in line with UR.
As for what appears to be judgement to come verses, read Craig's post.
At this point you are still at the beginning of wisdom phase of your walk, wisdom never ceases to grow as you grow spiritually. Once God reveals to you the true intent of the word, you will start to see the deeper layers of the true meanings. That said, you cannot rush or accelerate the process of wisdom, the only thing that does make it appear to happen quicker is directly proportional to the study time you put in + REVELATION of the Holy Spirit.
If there is something you still wrestle with then do not fret. Leave it be for now. I said earlier that it is not for us to convince you, but more importantly the Holy Spirit.
Blessings
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