Question

[SeekerSA]

Hi imwm

A bit off topic.

Do a search in the NT on Love and then judgement, wrath etc.  You will see there is a much bigger focus on the Love aspects of God.

I know you want clarification and that is OK.  I tend not to go down the road as debate there is counterproductive.  Father's Love is what tuns me on and I find ample evidence to support His Love nature as predominant to the "nature" of vengefulness.

You see man naturally is one of retribution, do unto others as they have done unto me, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life.  That is of satan and is cyclic.

Turning the other cheek breaks the cycle and satan is defeated.  This is why vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord, He did not mean we are to forgive and He will meet out vengeance on our behalf.  That is the sick mindset the church sits with yet they seem to overlook what Saul/Paul did.

Many Atheists quiz us on the horrible nature of God of the OT but I believe the Hebrews got some of their messages from God mixed up with their own theology.  The killing of innocent women and children IMO were not commandments from God but recorded as God ordained to justify their own brutality.

Fortunately, the old covenant has passed and Israel no longer exists.  Israel today is no way indicative of the Israel of the OT.  The new Israel is the whole of creation and not some piece of real estate and inhabitants of the middle east.

Look at how God destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD.  He put an end to their quest for dominion once and for all.  Stop all financial aid for Israel by USA Zionists and other countries, Israel will be overrun in days.  BTW I am not anti-semitic.

Many in the churches today still look forward to a reestablishment of the old order viz. new Jerusalem etc.  Little do they realise, this era is passed, never to return.

The RCC is well infiltrated by Zionists have led the church away from what God desires through His Son.  There will be no other Messiah, He has come, is coming and will come.

Strange how Christendom holds the same view of vengeance as the OT believers do?

Blessings

[imwm]

Hi imwm

A bit off topic.

Do a search in the NT on Love and then judgement, wrath etc.  You will see there is a much bigger focus on the Love aspects of God.

This is what I seemed to notice when I was reading my New Testament more regularly. Whether or not what people say about Jesus speaking more about hell than Heaven is true, He certainly seemed to be more about peace and love and joy than the wrath of God.

I know you want clarification and that is OK.  I tend not to go down the road as debate there is counterproductive.  Father's Love is what tuns me on and I find ample evidence to support His Love nature as predominant to the "nature" of vengefulness.

I do sort of think it's counterproductive but I feel a need to be "100% certain" as others have said they are. (I know you know this, just explaining further...). But I do think you are right, His love seems to be predominant.

You see man naturally is one of retribution, do unto others as they have done unto me, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life.  That is of satan and is cyclic.

Turning the other cheek breaks the cycle and satan is defeated.  This is why vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord, He did not mean we are to forgive and He will meet out vengeance on our behalf.  That is the sick mindset the church sits with yet they seem to overlook what Saul/Paul did.

Many Atheists quiz us on the horrible nature of God of the OT but I believe the Hebrews got some of their messages from God mixed up with their own theology.  The killing of innocent women and children IMO were not commandments from God but recorded as God ordained to justify their own brutality.

Fortunately, the old covenant has passed and Israel no longer exists.  Israel today is no way indicative of the Israel of the OT.  The new Israel is the whole of creation and not some piece of real estate and inhabitants of the middle east.

Look at how God destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD.  He put an end to their quest for dominion once and for all.  Stop all financial aid for Israel by USA Zionists and other countries, Israel will be overrun in days.  BTW I am not anti-semitic.

Many in the churches today still look forward to a reestablishment of the old order viz. new Jerusalem etc.  Little do they realise, this era is passed, never to return.

The RCC is well infiltrated by Zionists have led the church away from what God desires through His Son.  There will be no other Messiah, He has come, is coming and will come.

Strange how Christendom holds the same view of vengeance as the OT believers do?

Blessings

Good post, and I had never really thought of it this way. The thing I don't get though is how God can be just and turn the other cheek. I know Jesus paid for all sins, but it seems like there should be some justice for people who don't repent. What is your belief on this? Do you believe in a temporary hell after death, one during life, neither/or,...?

[SeekerSA]

Good post, and I had never really thought of it this way. The thing I don't get though is how God can be just and turn the other cheek. I know Jesus paid for all sins, but it seems like there should be some justice for people who don't repent. What is your belief on this? Do you believe in a temporary hell after death, one during life, neither/or,...?

That my friend is still carnal thinking.

What I believe should not influence you at all and I say this with caution.  Don't believe me, test it by the word and of the Holy Spirit.  That said, I do not believe in a hell of any sort.  Jesus paid the price in full, period.  If we condemn (insert most horrific crime/sin/person here) then we condemn ourselves too.  All fall short of the glory of God and that is why it is by grace and not by our good deeds.

Let me paint and analogy.  You work for 25 years faithful, do the do's by the book, never offend anyone etc.  One day something happens, you screw up badly, cost the company a fortune.  What will people remember, the 25 years or the screw up?

Now we take that paradigm and place it on our god created in man's image then we get a similar result don't we?

But He is God, He is not a man that He should lie, His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways, thank God for that.

It is not natural for us to turn the other cheek, forgive our enemies etc.  yet He commands us to do that.  That we can only do by His Spirit and not by our carnal abilities.  Once we have learned to exercise this gift, it becomes 2nd nature.  It is called maturity.  The flesh will naturally stand-up when hurt or threatened, it takes the Spirit of God to put the natural flesh under subjection.

See there is no sin too big for the cross, hence "It is finished"

As for repentance, not sure if I posted here or elsewhere, look up the meaning for repentance.  It is in essence an "after the fact" occurrence.  Churchianity teaches it as a "before the fact" occurrence and that is where it all goes pear shaped.  That makes you responsible for finding God and not the (correct) other way around.  In other words, it is a trap into the bondage of religion and religion is not what Jesus taught.  If so, we would not have pulpiteers "gay bashing" or any other sinner bashing.  They would know, Love covers a multitude of sins and that Love will "win" more people to Jesus than any judgement.  The problem is that most folk walk around with this immense piece of timber in their heads, I call it the beam-in-the-eye ministry, everywhere they turn their heads, they just knock folk over with this unnatural extension of their adopted projection, I hope you see the picture I am trying to paint here.  Here is a pic.

(http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Thumbs/ca/teaching/bible_bk/new_test/gospels/matthew/A%20man%20with%20a%20plank%20in%20his%20eye.jpg)

All the time looking for specks of imperfection in others.

What I share here is not UR unique, it is plainly what Jesus taught with no twists or further interpretation.

Blessings

[imwm]

What you said makes sense, I especially like the "beam in the eye" thing!  :happygrin:

I've never had this viewpoint before but now that I think about it it makes a lot of sense.

What I still don't get is what the passages that talk about God having some kind of retribution/justice on sinners mean. You can see one of these sort of passages posted in Arguments Against Universal Salvation, Peacetroll just posted it.

What is your viewpoint on those?

Thanks :)

[Craig]

Hello imwm,

God's wrath is on the godlessness and wickedness of mankind who suppress the truth. More to the point, the Law brought death and anyone who broke the Law, was a sinner. Now to make something short, I will cut to the point. The purpose of the Law, was not to have retribution against sinners, though it brought retribution and justice on sinners. The purpose of the Law was a continual accumulation of revelation that no man could fulfill the Law and find salvation. In fact it got so bad, that many judgments came from God out of anger against mankind. We know the flood (water), and to some, we know Gehenna (fire). These judgments were all fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The Law and Prophets spoke only concerning him, and in order to save the Lost, the whole world recieved salvation. This is Justice, this is Retribution against the sinner. It seems topsy turvy, but this is the simplified answer. If it was not for God's retribution/justice on sinners, there would be no salvation for the world.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Bernie!  :hithere:

One heckuva GREAT POST bro!  :goodpost:

Good post, and I had never really thought of it this way. The thing I don't get though is how God can be just and turn the other cheek. I know Jesus paid for all sins, but it seems like there should be some justice for people who don't repent. What is your belief on this? Do you believe in a temporary hell after death, one during life, neither/or,...?

That my friend is still carnal thinking.

What I believe should not influence you at all and I say this with caution.  Don't believe me, test it by the word and of the Holy Spirit.  That said, I do not believe in a hell of any sort.  Jesus paid the price in full, period.  If we condemn (insert most horrific crime/sin/person here) then we condemn ourselves too.  All fall short of the glory of God and that is why it is by grace and not by our good deeds.

Let me paint and analogy.  You work for 25 years faithful, do the do's by the book, never offend anyone etc.  One day something happens, you screw up badly, cost the company a fortune.  What will people remember, the 25 years or the screw up?

Now we take that paradigm and place it on our god created in man's image then we get a similar result don't we?

But He is God, He is not a man that He should lie, His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways, thank God for that.

It is not natural for us to turn the other cheek, forgive our enemies etc.  yet He commands us to do that.  That we can only do by His Spirit and not by our carnal abilities.  Once we have learned to exercise this gift, it becomes 2nd nature.  It is called maturity.  The flesh will naturally stand-up when hurt or threatened, it takes the Spirit of God to put the natural flesh under subjection.

See there is no sin too big for the cross, hence "It is finished"

As for repentance, not sure if I posted here or elsewhere, look up the meaning for repentance.  It is in essence an "after the fact" occurrence.  Churchianity teaches it as a "before the fact" occurrence and that is where it all goes pear shaped.  That makes you responsible for finding God and not the (correct) other way around.  In other words, it is a trap into the bondage of religion and religion is not what Jesus taught.  If so, we would not have pulpiteers "gay bashing" or any other sinner bashing.  They would know, Love covers a multitude of sins and that Love will "win" more people to Jesus than any judgement.  The problem is that most folk walk around with this immense piece of timber in their heads, I call it the beam-in-the-eye ministry, everywhere they turn their heads, they just knock folk over with this unnatural extension of their adopted projection, I hope you see the picture I am trying to paint here.  Here is a pic.

(http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Thumbs/ca/teaching/bible_bk/new_test/gospels/matthew/A%20man%20with%20a%20plank%20in%20his%20eye.jpg)

All the time looking for specks of imperfection in others.

What I share here is not UR unique, it is plainly what Jesus taught with no twists or further interpretation.

Blessings

WELL SAID!    :boogie: :bgdance: :egyptdance: :boydance:

Peace...  :HeartThrob:

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[SeekerSA]

Before we go on here, I sugest reading this article I posted on my Blog.  Too long for a post but here is the lead in.

New Testament


The Distinction, Between History and its Interpretation
Robert D. Brinsmead

The NT authors tell a good news story about Jesus of Nazareth. That good news story is called "the gospel." Like any good story teller, the NT authors don't simply recite the history of Jesus or write up his biography. They invest that history with a certain meaning or interpretation.

This NT blend of history and interpretation helps us to understand why the NT contains diverse or even contradictory accounts of Jesus of Nazareth. It was inevitable that his history came to mean different things to different people. The Palestinian Christians saw him through very Jewish eyes, while the Gentile Christians saw him through the eyes of their culture and world-views. No story teller simply recites history, but he or she will invest that history with the kind of interpretation that brings it alive with meaning for both the story teller and the audience.

The whole point of this discussion is to draw attention to this fundamental distinction between history and its interpretation.

Read on Here

[SeekerSA]

What I still don't get is what the passages that talk about God having some kind of retribution/justice on sinners mean. You can see one of these sort of passages posted in Arguments Against Universal Salvation, Peacetroll just posted it.

What is your viewpoint on those?

Thanks :)

First off, I am not quite certain where Peacetroll's theology lies at present; but it is not in line with UR.

As for what appears to be judgement to come verses, read Craig's post.

At this point you are still at the beginning of wisdom phase of your walk, wisdom never ceases to grow as you grow spiritually.  Once God reveals to you the true intent of the word, you will start to see the deeper layers of the true meanings.  That said, you cannot rush or accelerate the process of wisdom, the only thing that does make it appear to happen quicker is directly proportional to the study time you put in + REVELATION of the Holy Spirit.

If there is something you still wrestle with then do not fret.  Leave it be for now.  I said earlier that it is not for us to convince you, but more importantly the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

[SeekerSA]

This topic is now locked