Hello all!
Are there any articles on tentmaker.org that actually define what death is?
I found this article http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Restitution%20of%20All%20Things/restofall5.htm (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Restitution%20of%20All%20Things/restofall5.htm)
But it mainly talks about death not being annihilation. Basically, i'm wondering what is tentmaker's view on death? What immediately happens to the believer and the unbeliever immediately upon death in this age?
thanks!
Se7engames
I ask that same question early on in my walk, i could not find a satisfactory explanation from among men, so I brought it before God.
This is my understanding of death, it is the place of darkness, which by Christ definition of being blind as a lack of understanding in Matthew 15:14-16, we suffer from death in our lack of understanding of the truth, the truth about who God is, that being love, which from love stems compassion and forgiveness.
We suffer from death in that we lack a complete understanding of the compassion and forgiveness of God. We bury ourselves in a bunch of facts about the Bible, but we lack the understanding of it, and by that we lack the wisdom of God, and by that we cannot see the heart of God, that which is Christ, His heart of compassion.
In short, we suffer from death by not seeing who God truly is.
Our course, this is only my opinion.
The following link is to an exposition of death (and judgement).
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/index.html (http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/index.html)
This is an outline of what is there...
Death and Judgment
What Is The Soul?
What Is Death?
The Soul and the Unseen
The Gehenna of Fire
The Judgment of the Nations
Eonian Fire and Judging
The Lake of Fire
A Resurrection of Judging
Judgment and Death
The Revelation of God's Just Judgment
The Repudiation of Grace
Challenges to God's Deity
Crucial Questions About Resurrection
This sounds oversimplified and maybe even a little trite.
I'm not trying to be funny here and the more you think
about this, the more profound it might seem to you.
"Death is the opposite of life"
To be carnally minded is death, which is the opposite of life in the spirit as Ded has said.
Kinda where I took my name from when I started using it 15 years ago in other places.
"Dead to the World, but alive to Christ."
Thanks for the replies guys!
Tentmaker's basic stance on the definition of what death is, comes from the concordant.org expositions? Namely the ones listed by reFORMer?
And from what I gather from the expositions is that....
death = unconciousness. Which is why dead people are reffered to as "sleeping" in the Word.
So basically what happens when EVERYONE (believers and unbelievers) dies is that they become unconcious... fall asleep. Their body goes back to the ground from which it came and their spirit goes back to God from which it came. However, their spirit is unconcious, not aware. Human's are "alive" when a spirit and body come together and create a living soul that can interact with the environment.
This is great stuff!
que (cue?) soul sleep debate :laughing7:
:wink1:
the laugh by RHM and wink from me is because there's multiple opinions on this. As one of my TV heroes, Gomer used to say, "surprise, surprise, surprise"!
Which leads me to a thought I had today and a topic I want to start. Don't worry, it will be a "positive" thread, but the title will be, "What A Mess". :)
Thanks jabcat, I didn't know it was a topic of multiple opinions. I guess that's why I was wondering what is tentmaker's overall opinion on the subject.
Oh, you're welcome. I'd say there's probably not an "official" opinion. I believe GaryA. believes those deceased who were spiritually reborn in this life, are already active somehow, being at use in the kingdom. I don't know if he believes they are already shepherding lost souls in, in their "realm of the next age", or exactly what. But however it is exactly, I don't believe he believes in soul sleep. As far as other members, some believe in soul sleep, some believe in the "great cloud of witnesses that are "surrounding and cheering us on", while some believe there is a temporary holding place until judgment - whew! - while some believe judgment is immediate upon death and so that's "settled" for already for the dead. Aaaannndddd....some believe THIS life is the judgment, so when this body of flesh is done, everything is immediately made new. I'm sure I've missed some. :happygrin:
Soooooooo, lol. I'd suggest reading POVs, studying, praying to God for guidance and revelation, and don't get discouraged. Look to the Rock. He is our Salvation!
Blessings, James.
Awesome! Thanks for the information!! What are POV's?
Has there been any in depth, good forum discussions here at tentmaker for or against soul sleep?
Thanks again!
(P) point (O) of (V) view
I think death at it's most basic means "to cease from life". As with most other words, the particular meaning of the author is determined by context. When speaking of death in this life, it means for one's body to cease from exibiting any evidence of life - heart beat, breath, and today that includes any evidence of a functioning brain (brain dead). "Death" does not necessarily speak to what happens to a person's soul and/or spirit once the body has ceased to exibit life.
And from another perspective, death speaks of separation. In the death of a relationship, there is a separation between the parties making up the relationship. When thinking of the death of Adam and Eve due to sin, I think this is the death that they experienced, a break in their relationship with God, the source of life. A friend (athiest who was wanting to show error in my beliefs) once challenged me on Adam and Eve continuing to "live" for hundreds of years after they sinned when scripture said that in the day they sinned they would surely die. I thought about it for a moment, reached down and pulled a clump of grass from the sand, handed it to him and said, "This grass is now dead, though it continues to live, because it is separated from its source of life."
What happens to a person when he/she dies? Well, that's debatable. I tend to believe that when we die, cease from physical life, we are liberated from these physical bodies and come into the full reality of our spiritual bodies, much as a catapilar if liberated from it's worm form and transformed, given a new body, much more beautiful than the first body. In the process of death we experience judgment and it burns the hell out of us, liberating us fully from our flesh, our selfishness and evil, fitting us completely for relationship with God. But I could be wrong!
It was so late for me when I posted the answer from Concordant Publishing I didn't try to explain. They have a lot of Scripture to offer. I like very much that they at least attempt to "confine their/your expression of faith to the actual words God chose to make His revelation known." The Word itself is a very good place to start. I don't see death quite the way they teach it however. I figured the discussion would ensue. I don't think people have very good knowledge about whatever was BEFORE we found ourselves manifested here either. Anyway, I just offered to you a certain variety of cooks.
There's nothing wrong getting trained how to make a French Omelette from a French Chef. It's also very good to learn how to make Juevos Rancheros. Then there is how to make the Chinese 100 Year Old Egg. The broader your experience with actual egg preparation, the greater your potential for original contribution. Of Course you have to begin with an actual egg, as well as to stay with eggs, rather than change to things like stones, for instance. The purpose is to have some friends drop in to fellowship over what you cook up for them.
Excellent, reFORMer. I love the egg analogy :)
Thank you all for such excellent information. I'm going to start a new thread (maybe it's been done before) on what other websites that you have found helpful that are similar to tentmaker.
Look back in Genesis at the creation of Adam, for that is foundational. After God made the body out of the dust of the ground, it was not quite Adam yet - it was not yet alive. Then God breathed into the body the breath/spirit of Life, and Adam became a living soul. At his death, Adam's breath/spirit stopped or departed, and he became non-living again, or dead.
On the other hand, the only certain sign of death (in the medical sense) is decomposition - you know, dust to dust, with a very messy in-between.
:) Lazarus, this ought'a be meaningful to you.
I was just reading a couple of days ago when that other Lazarus was in the tomb. Jesus told them to open the tomb, and one of the ladies said "he's been in the tomb for 4 days, he'll stink". (Jesus had said he was just sleeping). Well, we know the rest of the story. So still the mystery. Was Lazarus dead? I think so - but is it truly just sleeping, because just the body's dead and the spirit's alive somewhere? :Chinscratch: We do know that Jesus holds the keys.
Jesus said, "If I lay down my life I have power to take it up again." How could He do this without being in a spirit form coming at it from the otherside of this cosmos (which many refer to as the otherside of this veil?)
2 Corinthians 12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Maybe Paul alludes to two different bodies, one's own individual body and being a member of the body of Christ. Whether or not one's own body is in view with both mentions, it seems He believes in experiencing things as if one had some resemblance to a soulical function outside the body. There are lists of Scripture in Watchman Nee's book The Spiritual Man that speak of the spirit functioning in just about any way the soul can function. Scripture knows there is a mind of the spirit and a fleshly or carnal mind.
1 Peter 317--46...
[17] For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. [18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. [21] The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: [22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:1-22 KJV)
[1] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; [2] That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. [3] For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: [4] Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]: [5] Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. [6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
In the 2nd chapter of Jonah he dies and goes to hell (sheol) for ever (according to the KJV, though it was only 3 days) and it is from there he remembered his vow. There he prayed. From there God heard and answered, making the big fish vomit him out onto dry land. I know someone who came to believe in the Salvation of all because of believing what is written in this one chapter.
Then there is the story of Lazarus. While it is just fine to understand it as a parable, that doesn't invalidate it as saying on a natural level whatever it says. Why should we think Jesus would mislead us by speaking of Abraham, Dives and Lazarus experiencing their environment, being conscious and carrying on a conversation with each other if this was impossible and a misrepresentation of the true state of affairs when we die?
As Solomon said there is no knowledge or praise in (is it sheol or the other Hebrew word meaning "the grave?") can be resolved by the fact the body (which also is you) has no such experience any more.
Demons, possibly in a lower dimension, seek to escape dryness (?) by dwelling in bodies again.
If we sleep here I don't know any definite reason why we wouldn't also sleep during certain intervals when out of the body until resurrection. Some think the spirit doesn't sleep; but that only seems intimated by certain Scriptures, not clearly said. It is written that the spirit can faint.
One opinion I think is true, whatever we are in a death state, it cannot be that it is just like being alive, being embodied. Why then would God not keep us there rather than go to all the trouble of bringing forth an incorruptible physical immortality? He calls it the expectation of all creation.
(I'm not looking up every reference for y'all at this time, OK?)_
Quote from: jabcat on August 07, 2012, 07:59:22 AM
:) Lazarus, this ought'a be meaningful to you.
I was just reading a couple of days ago when that other Lazarus was in the tomb. Jesus told them to open the tomb, and one of the ladies said "he's been in the tomb for 4 days, he'll stink". (Jesus had said he was just sleeping). Well, we know the rest of the story. So still the mystery. Was Lazarus dead? I think so - but is it truly just sleeping, because just the body's dead and the spirit's alive somewhere? :Chinscratch: We do know that Jesus holds the keys.
Right! Look a little deeper into the story - as Jesus and His disciples were on the way to Bethany, Jesus told His disciples that Lazarus was sleeping. Well, the disciples had heard that Lazarus was sick, so they were confused. Jesus then said PLAINLY that Lazarus was dead. Lazarus' spirit (breath) had returned to the Father. I see that spirit/breath (same word in Hebrew and in Greek) as a sort of lifeforce, since we are not immortal and alive somewhere after death. I think the concept of the immortality of the soul is one of the foundations of the hellfire doctrine. When you're dead, you're dead, otherwise God would have had a different warning for Adam and Eve about that certain tree...
Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity. God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit didn't all die when Jesus the Son died. Why should the entire man be thought to die when the body dies. Even without dying, Elijah went out (of his body) in the spirit and saw his servant catching up to Naaman the Syrian who he'd healed of leprosy. His servant was begging the gifts off of Naaman that he'd offered Elijah. This is another illustration of living as a spirit apart from a body.
I don't believe in the immortality of the soul either. Scripture definitely says, "The soul that sins, it shall die."
Little key seems to be what is said to the Thessalonians:
1 Thess 4;16,17 " Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command,
with a chief messenger's voice
and with a trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
after that, we the livng who are left, shall be caught away in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air;
and thus shall we be evermore with the Lord."
* The dead "in Christ" seems to be a statement. If people are already there how will they rise when Christ comes?
There is no time outside of the space-time continuum. We will all wake up at the resurrection at the same time, but to each one it will be just like you blinked, or maybe had a quick nod off while in this realm.
Quote from: Ross on August 08, 2012, 06:25:30 PM
Little key seems to be what is said to the Thessalonians:
1 Thess 4;16,17 " Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command,
with a chief messenger's voice
and with a trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
after that, we the livng who are left, shall be caught away in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air;
and thus shall we be evermore with the Lord."
* The dead "in Christ" seems to be a statement. If people are already there how will they rise when Christ comes?
I think this group that he is talking about here, they are alive with Christ, but the body is dead and in the grave. So 'the dead in Christ' will rise, means they will 'stand up' [in their resurrected, and glorified, bodies].
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2012, 12:47:45 AM
Quote from: Ross on August 08, 2012, 06:25:30 PM
Little key seems to be what is said to the Thessalonians:
1 Thess 4;16,17 " Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command,
with a chief messenger's voice
and with a trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
after that, we the livng who are left, shall be caught away in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air;
and thus shall we be evermore with the Lord."
* The dead "in Christ" seems to be a statement. If people are already there how will they rise when Christ comes?
I think this group that he is talking about here, they are alive with Christ, but the body is dead and in the grave. So 'the dead in Christ' will rise, means they will 'stand up' [in their resurrected, and glorified, bodies].
There is no time outside of the space-time continuum. We will all wake up at the resurrection at the same time, but to each one it will be just like you blinked, or maybe had a quick nod off while in this realm
I agree with the above I had a vision of me waking and standing just behind my great
great, great grandfather from Ireland he was wearing really weird cloths.
He turned around and looked at me and both new each other instantly.
It left me with such a warm nice feeling for days and it made me search the internet
for old Irish warriors wear. He had a shield and spear.
Some years ago, in what dictionary I don't know, the definition of DEATH was CESSATION OF COMMUNICATION WITH THE EVNIRONMENT.
According to the Bible.....Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
That's about it. Course the Bible could be wrong?
The Bible isn't wrong. But the translation and/or interpretation can be wrong.
While I think we have the same view on this verse I want to mention another very clear verse that obviously isn't that clear after considering what it means....
(Jer 32:35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Very clear. God never thought about what thousands of Molech worseshippers did.
Mmm, maby it's not that clear after all. It would mean there is at least one thing the all-knowing God didn't know.....
I don't see how, but perhaps there is a similar twist to "dead know nothing" ?
Quote from: reFORMer on August 10, 2012, 02:02:07 PM
Some years ago, in what dictionary I don't know, the definition of DEATH was CESSATION OF COMMUNICATION WITH THE EVNIRONMENT.
Then the next important question is: Which enviorment?
Do the dead stop interacting with any enviorment? Or just stop interacting with "this" enviorment and start interacting with the spiritual enviorment?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2012, 11:02:53 AM
The Bible isn't wrong. But the translation and/or interpretation can be wrong.
I don't see how, but perhaps there is a similar twist to "dead know nothing" ?
I remember seeing an explanation/POV once (a couple of years ago) that said this has to do with "in this earthly realm", that the context of the verse is important to ascertain what it really means/is talking about. Also, if there are verses that appear to say something different, then a verse may need to be put in the context of all related verses to get it "rightly divided". Anyway, maybe later I can find that post that might be of benefit.
DEATH...to be dead, to be a corpse, to have expired and no longer breathe....dead... and know not anything. This is not difficult....1Co 15:15 and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
1Co 15:18 then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;
1Co 15:19 if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep. [asleep=dead]
It's a difficult subject. I guess everyone needs to take it before the Lord for guidance and understanding of the scriptures. Either way one believes and understands, here's the post from a former member I was looking for. It may be useful. Blessings.
"And He did preach His conquest of death to the dead and they that were in their graves heard the voice of the Son of God and were raised from the dead with Him, according to Matthew's Gospel -- when He was raised from the dead, so were they and many of them appeared to many in the city. John 5 says that the dead can hear. So much for your misapplication of the know nothing passage from Ecclesiastes 9 that contextually is about Solomon repenting of all of his sins, including occultic practices that he couldn't be forthcoming about without being stoned. The dead at that time knew nothing of what was going on in this world and therefore were of absolutely no help and no benefit to those alive on this earth. It's an admonition in Ecclesiastes 9 against the occult.
However, in Ephesians since we're raised up to sit together with Him in heavenly places, it plainly tells us in Hebrews that we're surrounded with a great cloud of witnesses and as we preach the Gospel, Lord Jesus was coming with the clouds of heaven and those that pierced Him saw the Son of God, in the preaching of the Gospel, and lived."
Quotewhen He was raised from the dead, so were they and many of them appeared to many in the city
Was that a resurrection to everlasting life? Or did those people die again, say, 2 decades later?
Did Jesus give Lazarus everlasting life before He Himself was resurrected?
I can accept things changed after His resurrection but how about this verse?
Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2012, 10:34:31 PM
Quotewhen He was raised from the dead, so were they and many of them appeared to many in the city
Was that a resurrection to everlasting life? Or did those people die again, say, 2 decades later?
Did Jesus give Lazarus everlasting life before He Himself was resurrected?
I can accept things changed after His resurrection but how about this verse?
Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
No. and Yes they dies again later. and No. and David is still dead and in his tomb.
I also believe they died again.
We know his body is there, at least.
About 4 questions have occurred to me today. I'll start with one.
Why is nemocrancy so forbidden in the scriptures?
Humm, don't know.
Is it of importance for this thread. If God resurrected people they are no longer dead.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 12:08:33 AM
Humm, don't know.
Is it of importance for this thread.
If the total person is dead/asleep (including all consciousness) then why would it matter?
Ha, now I understand what your question is leading to.
The body is dead.
If the mind can somehow communicate can it be considered dead?
The witch of Endor was a necromancer. There death was called "rest". That doesn't sound as aactive heavinly life. More like sleeping. Meaning no consciousness.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 12:22:12 AM
Ha, now I understand what your question is leading to.
The body is dead.
If the mind can somehow communicate can it be considered dead?
The witch of Endor was a necromancer. There death was called "rest". That doesn't sound as aactive heavinly life. More like sleeping. Meaning no consciousness.
One thing I'm wondering is, if there's consciousness "in another realm", maybe the act of nemoncracy is calling (or attempting to call) that consciousness and interaction back into this realm, and God forbids humans from doing that. (however there seems to be some scriptural evidence that HE does?)
Which brings me to the next question, related. The spirit "returns to God Who gave it". Does that spirit go into hibernation, is numbed/asleep, or in a holding state "beyond this veil" [the "rest"] yet still conscious, in another realm waiting to return to a resurrected body? Didn't the Jews in scripture and their writings call that Paradise [Abraham's bosom]?
QuoteThe spirit "returns to God Who gave it".
I'm sure that's right. But when? Instantly?
If it returns to God instantly will it be asleep in a huge heavingly bedroom for a certain time?
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Resting souls. There is some interaction.
http://www.bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg04-6/rev06d-5th-seal.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 01:16:26 AM
QuoteThe spirit "returns to God Who gave it".
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Resting souls. There is some interaction.
good find :gthumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 01:16:26 AM
QuoteThe spirit "returns to God Who gave it".
I'm sure that's right. But when? Instantly?
If it returns to God instantly will it be asleep in a huge heavingly bedroom for a certain time?
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Resting souls. There is some interaction.
http://www.bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg04-6/rev06d-5th-seal.htm
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Micah, can you explain your reply?
What does that verse teach us in the context of this thread?
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 12, 2012, 03:18:06 PM
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Clear.
But it doesn't tell us how long after death that judgement takes place.
Say judgement takes place 5 year after death.
Are the dead dead during those 5 years or are they just alive and waiting?
I think that's what the topic is about?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 12, 2012, 03:18:06 PM
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Clear.
But it doesn't tell us how long after death that judgement takes place.
Say judgement takes place 5 year after death.
Are the dead dead during those 5 years or are they just alive and waiting?
I think that's what the topic is about?
In His time judgment will take place.
The "dead" are dead. The dead are certainly not alive and waiting. The topic, I thought was "Please define Death."
Besides Peter says 1Pe 4:17 because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
Those of us who are of the house of God are being judged now, for we have died in Him and are being judged.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 12, 2012, 04:46:11 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 12, 2012, 03:18:06 PM
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Clear.
But it doesn't tell us how long after death that judgement takes place.
Say judgement takes place 5 year after death.
Are the dead dead during those 5 years or are they just alive and waiting?
I think that's what the topic is about?
In His time judgment will take place.
The "dead" are dead. The dead are certainly not alive and waiting. The topic, I thought was "Please define Death."
In secular life that's a very simple question. But not on TM.
Some believe the dead are totally dead in a secular way.
Others believe the dead are instantly alive and with God. Bit like the classic NDE of people floating trough a tunnel towards God.
Others believe the body dies and the bodiless spirit "is somewhere" waiting until the resurrection where it gets a new body.
I'm just trying to figure out all those views on what dead really is.
Your view is dead=totally 100% dead in a secular way. Right?
Yep.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 12, 2012, 04:46:11 PM
The "dead" are dead. The dead are certainly not alive and waiting. The topic, I thought was "Please define Death."
IMO, that's a valid opinion. Others have other reasons within the scriptures to think otherwise. This whole discussion is related to defining death, IMO.
We had this discussion a few times since I'm a Tentie. Likely the same topic was discussed before then.
Still no agreement. Perhaps a good start is to collect all verses that (seem to) prove (no) death.
The verses may look obvious but appenrently they aren't because views differ. Likely because the verses seem to contradict. So we need a "key" that unlocks the riddle...
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 10:02:02 PM
We had this discussion a few times since I'm a Tentie. Likely the same topic was discussed before then.
Still no agreement. Perhaps a good start is to collect all verses that (seem to) prove (no) death.
The verses may look obvious but appenrently they aren't because views differ. Likely because the verses seem to contradict. So we need a "key" that unlocks the riddle...
:gthumbsup:
I believe what you say is right, as with many topics. Sometimes, taking one or two scriptures and hanging a total belief system on them can lead down the wrong path. Many/most scriptures can "stand alone" (God is love, Christ died for us, call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved, love your enemies, etc., etc.). Others seem to need a fuller study, comparing several scriptures to one another, then seeking revelation from the Lord on proper interpretation. I'm afraid this topic falls into the latter group. I lean toward consciousness after death, and can present some reasons why. But I also believe it may be more "complicated" than that, i.e., where is that consciousness, in what realm, doing what, etc...But I don't know that I have that one "key" that you mention, that "brings it all together". :2c:
(Eccl 9:5) For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything, nor have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,....
(1Sam 28:15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why have thou disquieted me, to bring me up? .....
Mat 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Psalm 6:5 No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?
http://www.thewordteaches.com/questions/Soul%20Seep.htm
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=the-Dead
:smile: Good. Just as we said though, there are many scriptures and interpretations. I'll match ya' with this view of it.
"Indeed it seems, because of this comment from Peter in Matthew 17:4, as if the disciples had seen Elijah and Moses with their own eyes and had recognized them:
"Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." (KJV)
Were Moses and Elijah "conscious of nothing at all"?
The great hope is to be with Christ at death, not to be dead and conscious of nothing at all.
What did the first martyr, Stephen, see and say as he was stoned to death?
Acts 7:55, 56: "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (KJV)
Acts 7:59: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (KJV)
What was the great hope of Paul, who as Saul had witnessed the stoning of Stephen?
Philippians 1:21, 23: "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:" (KJV)
2 Corinthians 5:6-8: "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (KJV)
We must be very careful what we teach as truth from the book of Ecclesiastes. The writer of the book is identified in chapter 1, verse 1, as the son of David, king in Jerusalem. This was Solomon. Page 44 of the Watchtower Society's 1950 booklet, "Evolution versus the New World" identifies Solomon as the writer of Ecclesiastes. The theme of the book is identified in the second verse of chapter one, "vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Solomon is showing what a life and all its accomplishments are without God; it is hardly a life to pattern our lives after. Better we should pattern our lives after Paul, who had a desire "to be with Christ; which is far better. http://www.soundwitness.org/jw/ecclesiastes_9.htm
that is one of the keys Jabcat...the vanity the creature was subjected too...worthless emptiness...the opposite of life/God/consciousness
Quote from: sheila on September 12, 2012, 11:13:22 PM
that is one of the keys Jabcat...the vanity the creature was subjected too...worthless emptiness...the opposite of life/God/consciousness
:thumbsup:
Should you see the carcass of a skunk or armadillo lying along the side of the road (road kill) that animal is what is called dead. Should you go to the morgue and see a human being lying on a slab, cold, and white, that human is dead. After a fire cracker is set off and it pops, that fire cracker is dead. Dead is dead.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
This, which I guess is unclear...was a VISION, something gazed at; to appear
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Act 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Stephen was stoned till he became dead. The breath/spirit goes back to the one who gave it, but Stephen was expired, not breathing or spiriting, he was dead.
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
Act 3:15 and the Prince of the life ye did kill, whom God did raise out of the dead, of which we are witnesses;
Act 4:10 be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole.
Act 13:30 and God did raise him out of the dead,
Act 13:34 `And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus--I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David;
Act 17:31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'
Your breath/spirit is back to the one who gave it and will be there in that very state until it's judgment. A spirit without a body, is not a living soul, that body is dead, until The Father will do what ever He will do.
JESUS CHRIST the SAVIOR died (dead) for the sins of the world.
let the dead bury their own dead,but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.
Yeah, walking dead. Another bit of proof dead isn't always dead.... :dontknow:
You all are funny.
:LH: :dontknow: :dontknow: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
zombie apocolypse
I see I Cor. 15:16 as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did.
Which is one of my other questions I had. When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV), what was it doing for those 3 days?
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
I see I Cor. 15:16 as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did.
Which is one of my other questions I had. When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV), what was it doing for those 3 days?
Hey Jab have you misplaced the very essential truth?
Joh 10:30
I and the Father are one. 2Co 5:18 And the
all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19
how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 02:59:35 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
I see I Cor. 15:16 as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did.
Which is one of my other questions I had. When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV), what was it doing for those 3 days?
Hey Jab have you misplaced the very essential truth?
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.
2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.
Not as far as I know.
But I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly with these verses as far as what Jesus' spirit was doing for those 3 days, related to defining death. If the following has anything at all to do with what you're saying though, I'm not a "oneness", i.e., I don't believe the scriptures teach that Jesus and God being "one"
literally means they are one entity [as does the UPC/"Oneness" doctrine]. I believe there's a Father and a Son, distinct "Beings", Who are both divine, Who are of the same Substance,
Who work in tandem/complete cooperation, i.e., as one - in Spirit, in unity, in all thoughts and behavior, though distinct "Individuals", they are one - in every purpose.
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
I see I Cor. 15:16 as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did.
Which is one of my other questions I had. When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV), what was it doing for those 3 days?
I can tell you what Jesus was
not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father." There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places. I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days. Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 13, 2012, 03:12:19 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
I see I Cor. 15:16 as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did.
Which is one of my other questions I had. When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV), what was it doing for those 3 days?
I can tell you what Jesus was not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father." There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places. I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days. Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.
I know that argument (and thought process) regarding His sacrifice. I've wondered about it myself, as recently as earlier today. :laughing7: A thought about that is, even if His spirit was still active and conscious, His body was indeed dead and gave up His spirit. How does that relate to death entering the world by Adam's sin? Does that have to be the spirit and body, or just the body? And that's really the question as I understand. Does the spirit also go to sleep/go into unconscious numbness, or is it doing something else. Sometimes the things I'm "sure about", end up having other possibilities. Him saying He had not yet ascended to the Father, IMO, isn't fully defined. I.e., does that mean His body, His spirit, or His spirit and body together hadn't ascended? It was His body He was telling her not to touch, but I'm not sure if that explains much. But if His spirit hadn't returned to the Father, then that brings back the other question of "and the spirit returns to God Who gave it", i.e., when? Immediately as the "body returns to the ground", or after it's been numbed for awhile, or does God take it back "as dead", etc.?
Just a quick "bottom line" note - seems to me, that even IF one were "asleep" for a few thousand years in unconsciousness, they would breathe their last here and when they awakened, it would seem like only a split second - so
in that regard only, they're sort of the same thing. :2c:
Isn't there some indication in scripture that Jesus went and proclaimed His victory during those three days, and "led captivity captive", or is that way too open to interpretation? Would Laz and some other folks weigh in on that question, "what did Jesus do during the 3 days His body was in the tomb"? Thanks.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 13, 2012, 03:12:19 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
I see I Cor. 15:16 as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did.
Which is one of my other questions I had. When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV), what was it doing for those 3 days?
I can tell you what Jesus was not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father." There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places. I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days. Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.
Amen! " Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice."
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 03:37:54 AM
Isn't there some indication in scripture that Jesus went and proclaimed His victory during those three days, and "led captivity captive", or is that way too open to interpretation? Would Laz and some other folks weigh in on that question, "what did Jesus do during the 3 days His body was in the tomb"? Thanks.
(ASV) for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(RV) for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(WNT) For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS IN THE SEA-MONSTER'S BELLY, so will the Son of Man be
three days in the heart of the earth.
(YLT) for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man
be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
As for led captivity captive, Eph. 4:8, I've always wondered what was this captivity that was led captive. It seems something was in captivity, but was not let lose, but led captive. But the Bible reads that He was in the "earth" I believe that is important, we, or at least I thought He was buried or in a tomb. Jesus was in the EARTH, there is much to be done in the earth I think.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 03:59:59 AM
we, or at least I thought He was buried or in a tomb.
I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise.
As far as Jonah being in the whale, I don't think his spirit was dead or asleep... :Chinscratch:
Looking around just now about this topic, I saw this on another forum.
"I'm confused ...When Jesus died did he just sleep ..?
Answer: "Perhaps we can ask Him that one day. Until then, the topic of soul sleep leads to lots of conjecture."
'ya think? :LH:
:gimmefive:
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
Looking around just now about this topic, I saw this on another forum.
"I'm confused ...When Jesus died did he just sleep ..?
Answer: "Perhaps we can ask Him that one day. Until then, the topic of soul sleep leads to lots of conjecture."
'ya think? :LH:
:gimmefive:
What is so hard about understanding death and it's definition? Jesus was raised from the dead, call it sleep if it makes you feel better. But the great and wonderful deed was, God raising His Son from the dead.
(ASV) And when his disciples heard thereof, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.
(KJV) And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.
(RV) And when his disciples heard thereof, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.
(WNT) When John's disciples heard of it, they came and took away his body and laid it in a tomb.
(YLT) and having heard, his disciples came and took up his corpse, and laid it in the tomb.
Corpse G4430 ptōma a ruin, that is, (specifically) lifeless body (corpse, carrion): - dead body, carcase, corpse
Micah, are you still promoting death? Don't you know we don't need these bodies to live?
Jesus spent three days preaching to the captives in 'hell'
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison-- 1 Pet 3:19
1 Peter 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." Eph 4:8
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:16:46 AM
Micah, are you still promoting death? Don't you know we don't need these bodies to live?
Jesus spent three days preaching to the captives in 'hell'
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison-- 1 Pet 3:19
1 Peter 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." Eph 4:8
Good ol staunch Molly, no I am very much for life and that more abundantly, and have it, thank you Jesus. I just have not figured out why born again believers, who are alive in Christ, are so adamant against not excepting the same walk that Jesus gave example to and Paul expounded so greatly. That's all. O yeah...you can run...but you can't hide. Peace.
Thanks for answering that question Molly. Without having looked it up, that's what I thought (except I'd forgotten the "days of Noah" part. One of my favorite verses!).
Well Molly sure defined death with that one.
"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah. I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days. The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it. I don't know. But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.
BECAUSE THOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL [Hades], NEITHER WILL THOU SUFFER THY HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.
Acts 2:27
Look there--a soul, Micah, alive after death!
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
---1 Peter 3
Can't you just see him ascending into heaven triumphant like a victorious conqueror leading all his captives in a great parade?
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 05:56:14 AM
"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah. I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days. The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it. I don't know. But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
--Jonah 2
Well maybe some day you all can answer why you are so possessive of this clay vessel and why you seem to be so afraid of death. Seems like you think spiritual death is your death.
BECAUSE THOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL [Hades], NEITHER WILL THOU SUFFER THY HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.
Acts 2:27
But David did die didn't he, because he has not made the judgment as of yet. Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
And I know there is life after death.
"Can't you just see him ascending into heaven triumphant like a victorious conqueror leading all his captives in a great parade?" That's your imagination cause that never happened. Sorry, and that human imagination you have, is a good part of your belief.
I'm not possessive of this clay vessel. I've already told you we don't need it to live.
Nor, am I afraid of death. I've already 'died' twice.
But, let me ask you, why are you so afraid of not dying? Or are you?
Jesus said, if one returned from the dead, they wouldn't believe him.
Many have returned from the dead in this day and age, and he's right, no one believes them.
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 06:18:58 AM
I'm not possessive of this clay vessel. I've already told you we don't need it to live.
Nor, am I afraid of death. I've already 'died' twice.
But, let me ask you, why are you so afraid of not dying? Or are you?
Jesus said, if one returned from the dead, they wouldn't believe him.
Many have returned from the dead in this day and age, and he's right, no one believes them.
You may believe "Many have returned from the dead in this day and age,..." but I do not.
well, what do you think they were doing with no heartbeat and no breathing for as long as --longest I've heard of--45 minutes? That person was under water.
:sigh:
Mary holding onto Jesus in the garden early in the morning He raised from the dead and Jesus saying not to because He hadn't yet ascended to the Father was about His prophecy that He was going away to the Father and they couldn't come along. Thereafter He would return to abide with them always. Mary thought Jesus' going away was in death, just as today many think, when you die you go see God. Now, Mary thought, He had returned to be with us always; but, He actually hadn't left yet. The form with which He would make His permanent home with us was sent forth as Spirit into and upon us from the Throne after His ascension on the Day of Pentecost. This is another Spirit than our own spirit selves. Other than His own body, He makes our bodies His own. The new man is many members as one body. (1 Cor 1212) His ascension was 40 days after His resurrection in the sight of over 500 men (they didn't number the women and children, which would make the number approximately two or three times that: 1,000 to 1,500.) Ascended He was sent never to leave us as Spirit inhabiting our bodies with us.
________________________________________
from post #21 . . .
Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity. God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit didn't all die when Jesus the Son died. Why should the entire man be thought to die when the body dies.
Even without dying, Elijah went out (of his body) in the spirit and saw his servant catching up to Naaman the Syrian who he'd healed of leprosy. His servant was begging the gifts off of Naaman that he'd offered Elijah. This is another illustration of living as a spirit apart from a body.
My body is me. If you touch my body you touch me. My soul and my spirit are also me. Existing in three dimensions simultaneously, spirit, soul and body is one person. If I am broken into pieces, as in death of the body, all parts are still me, at least for a while. When the body returns to dust, them the realm in which it is, the realm of embodiment (which is actually the scope of what our body is) will yet be glorified and we will yet be raised back into it, glorified.
"Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity...." That is your religious belief.
According to the Bible, the Word of God man is...body and breath/spirit, dual a living soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 07:35:13 AM
"Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity...." That is your religious belief.
According to the Bible, the Word of God man is...body and breath/spirit, dual a living soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
No, not my religious belief; rather, it is my Biblical belief. "Now may the God of peace Himself be hallowing
you wholly; and may your unimpaired spirit and soul and body be kept blameless in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ!" (Thessalonians 5
23, Concordant Literal) The complete you, what is sanctified in its entirety, is here said to be: "spirit and soul and body."
What you quote, Genesis 2
7, says man is made of 1.) the dust, his body, the breath of "lives" (life [plural],) which is 2.)his spirit, and a developing 3.) soul (which is thought, will and emotion) that is the result of the spirit in the body. Differing from the soul, the functions of spirit are, conscience, communion, and intuition. The Greek words were given interesting keywords by A. E. Knoch: "pneuma" WIND-
effect, "psyche" COOL-ic, and "soma" body. We know our bodies are mostly (3/4ths) water. The breeze blows upon the waters and the effect is a cooling. Inspiring, expiring...the spiration of 1.) the spirit upon 3.) the body cause 2.) the soul. It is like the 1.) electricity in the bulb sheltered 3.) tungsten creates 2.) light and heat.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 13, 2012, 03:12:19 AM
I can tell you what Jesus was not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father." There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places. I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days. Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.
That would mean He went to heaven between teh time He met Mary and Thomas touched Him. Meaning His second coming was before Thomas touched Him.
There is an alternative explanation.
....do not cling to me because I haven't ascended yet.
Jesus didn't forbid Mary to touch Him. He told her not have the false hope He would stay with her because He hasn't returned to heaven yet at that time.
(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "
These last 2 posts are :2thumbs:. Good job guys, very interesting finds. I had totally forgotten/overlooked that verse reF. The CB says "Now may the God of peace Himself purify you completely throughout your whole being; and may your whole being in all its parts (spirit, sentient being [SOUL] and body) be kept blameless at the Presence of our Master Yesu (the Anointed One)"
Things are often not what they seem to be on the surface, are they? "Don't cling/try to hold or keep me here"! I never even considered such a possible interpretation. The more I think I know, the less I really do. :laugh:
Wow...it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, the honor of kings to search out a matter.
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:16:46 AM
Jesus spent three days preaching to the captives in 'hell'
So he went and preached to the spirits in prison-- 1 Pet 3:19
1 Peter 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
QuoteTherefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." Eph 4:8
Why do you quote this verse in connection with Jesus' death?
Do you think this verse is about Jesus leading captives to heaven during the 3 days in the tomb?
If so why did He tell Mary He hasn't ascended to heaven at the time He met her?
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 05:56:14 AM
"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah. I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days. The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it. I don't know. But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.
While I'm
not saying there is no conection between Jesus 3 day in the tomb and Jonah we have to take care not to take the pattern to far. Obviously there are very clear differences. Jesus isn't Jonah and wasn't buried in a fish.
So are we allowed to conclude because Jonah was alive all the time Jesus was also?
If we do we should be fair and also note Jonah didn't leave the fish for 3 days. Similary that would mean Jesus didn't leave the tomb for 3 days to preach to spirits in prison as some claim.
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 03:37:54 AM
Isn't there some indication in scripture that Jesus went and proclaimed His victory during those three days, and "led captivity captive", or is that way too open to interpretation? Would Laz and some other folks weigh in on that question, "what did Jesus do during the 3 days His body was in the tomb"? Thanks.
Not all parts of all verses are in the same time line. I still don't know how such a contruct is called in English so I'll give an example.
Jabcat,
who plays golf, posted 5 times on TM today.
"who plays golf" is just mentioning your hobby. But it doesn't mean you played golf today between your posts.
Jesus tells Mary not to touch him [in his resurrected body] because he has not yet ascended to his Father [in his new body]. First meaning for that word is 'touch' but it could mean 'attach oneself to.'
I've always thought that he did ascend after he sent her away because he has to present himself as the high priest in heaven. Once the high priest puts on his robes and prepares himself and the sacrifice for the holy of holies, he cannot be touched until he has performed his duties, otherwise he has to start all over again. He says to her, go and tell my brethren that I am ascending to heaven. So I believe he ascended and returned in that time.
There are other words that mean cling
Kallao--to join, cleave to, cling to
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil ; cling to what is good.
16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
But, this word in John 20, haptomai, is translated 36 times as 'touch' and means just what it sounds like it means, 'touch.'
So I do feel he ascended during the three days he was 'dead' and led captivity captive to heaven. Then, he ascended in his resurrected body, before he met with his brethren, and presented himself to the Father in the real holy of holies [he is both high priest and sacrifice]. Then he ascended a third time where he sits at the right hand of God.
But, I'm not going to fight anyone over it. It's just the way I feel about it.
Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.
Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Heb 9:24
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; --1 Peter 3
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
--Eph 4
Jonah in the belly of the fish is a type of death and descending into the place of the dead: Jesus went to the same place when he died.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God. Jon 2
Quote from: reFORMer on September 13, 2012, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 07:35:13 AM
"Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity...." That is your religious belief.
According to the Bible, the Word of God man is...body and breath/spirit, dual a living soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
No, not my religious belief; rather, it is my Biblical belief. "Now may the God of peace Himself be hallowing you wholly; and may your unimpaired spirit and soul and body be kept blameless in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ!" (Thessalonians 523, Concordant Literal) The complete you, what is sanctified in its entirety, is here said to be: "spirit and soul and body."
What you quote, Genesis 27, says man is made of 1.) the dust, his body, the breath of "lives" (life [plural],) which is 2.)his spirit, and a developing 3.) soul (which is thought, will and emotion) that is the result of the spirit in the body. Differing from the soul, the functions of spirit are, conscience, communion, and intuition. The Greek words were given interesting keywords by A. E. Knoch: "pneuma" WIND-effect, "psyche" COOL-ic, and "soma" body. We know our bodies are mostly (3/4ths) water. The breeze blows upon the waters and the effect is a cooling. Inspiring, expiring...the spiration of 1.) the spirit upon 3.) the body cause 2.) the soul. It is like the 1.) electricity in the bulb sheltered 3.) tungsten creates 2.) light and heat.
As usual you take the understanding of how the Greek represents the "sentient being" as the "soul."
I will stand on what the Bible, at the beginning, defines what made up a living soul: dust and breath.
As far as your trinity, "three persons" in one, show me where the Holy Spirit is a person, and as far as I have found the "trinity teaching" is a hypothesis, I don't believe in theories at least not when it comes to the Word of God. Besides I thought that word was not allowed on the forum??????
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 03:09:48 PM
I've always thought that he did ascend after he sent her away because he has to present himself as the high priest in heaven. Once the high priest puts on his robes and prepares himself and the sacrifice for the holy of holies, he cannot be touched until he has performed his duties, otherwise he has to start all over again. He says to her, go and tell my brethren that I am ascending to heaven. So I believe he ascended and returned in that time.
Excellent! :iagree: I also have this in mind, as to why Jesus did not want Mary to touch Him before He ascended - Leviticus 21:11, Numbers 6:6-7, Numbers 19:11-13, and there are others verses I could have quoted. I'm thinking that, besides the priestly aspect, for Jesus to come in contact with a living (non-glorified) human in His glorified state would be analogous to a living human coming into contact with a dead body. He would have been defiled, and He had urgent Priestly matters to attend to.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 04:55:47 PM
As usual you take the understanding of how the Greek represents the "sentient being" as the "soul."
I will stand on what the Bible, at the beginning, defines what made up a living soul: dust and breath.
As far as your trinity, "three persons" in one, show me where the Holy Spirit is a person, and as far as I have found the "trinity teaching" is a hypothesis, I don't believe in theories at least not when it comes to the Word of God. Besides I thought that word was not allowed on the forum??????
Micah, I'm with you on the dust + breath = soul. Yes, let's not get side-tracked into Greek thinking - the language is fine, but the mindset/philosophy is not.
I'm still fairly new here - so what is that word not allowed on this forum?
For which cause he tells us,
THOU ART PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HADES WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.
--Mat 16:18
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 05:56:14 AM
"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah. I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days. The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it. I don't know. But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.
Jabcat, you do realize that Jesus was speaking a parable in Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Parable: a short simple story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
For me "soul sleep" is something people have made up because they are afraid of the word dead/death. Religion makes death a feared destination. Another parable...Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
This is the best I can do as to how I have been given to understand my death as a human being(leaving out my born again experience) When my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, and IN
the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 03:09:48 PM
Jesus tells Mary not to touch him [in his resurrected body] because he has not yet ascended to his Father [in his new body]. First meaning for that word is 'touch' but it could mean 'attach oneself to.'
I can fully picture what happened. Mary sees Him and almost hugs Him to death. I just can't imagine if she watched Him die 3 days ago she just stands there and talk. Seems normal human behavior for me. Maybe not so in a theocracy like Jesus lived in, but still the above is considiration for me.
QuoteI've always thought that he did ascend after he sent her away because he has to present himself as the high priest in heaven.
Do you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming.... :dontknow:
QuoteThere are other words that mean cling
Kallao--to join, cleave to, cling to
John 20:17
ἅπτομαι
haptomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to
1a) to touch
1b) of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
1c) of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
1d) to touch, assail anyone
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: reflexive of G681
ἅπτομαι
háptomai; fut. hápsomai, mid. deponent from háptō (G681), to connect, bind. To apply oneself to, to touch. Refers to such handling of an object as to exert a modifying influence upon it or upon oneself. The same effect may be conveyed by the verb thiggánō (G2345). These words sometimes may be exchanged one for the other (e.g., Sept.: Exo 19:12). Both words are used together in Col 2:21. Háptomai is usually stronger than thiggánō (1Jn 5:18; Sept.: Psa 104:15). Thiggánō is correctly translated in Col 2:21 as "handle not," but the basic meaning is touching for the purpose of manipulating. Distinguished from psēlapháō (G5584), which actually only means to touch the surface of something (Luk 24:39; 1Jn 1:1). In 2Co 6:17, "touch no unclean thing" (a.t.), means have no dealings with the heathen (cf. Isa 52:11). In 1Co 7:1, "to touch a woman" is not to be taken literally, but is a euphemism for sexual intercourse. However, in the context of this verse, Paul seems to be referring to the whole idea of the sanctity of the marriage relationship. See Sept.: Gen 20:4, Gen 20:6. By implication in 1Jn 5:18, to harm, injure. See 1Ch 16:22; Job 5:19. Other references: Mat 8:3, Mat 8:15; Mat 9:20-21, Mat 9:29; Mat 14:36; Mat 17:7; Mat 20:34; Mar 1:41; Mar 3:10; Mar 5:27-28, Mar 5:30-31; Mar 6:56; Mar 7:33; Mar 8:22; Mar 10:13; Luk 5:13; Luk 6:19; Luk 7:14, Luk 7:39; Luk 8:44-47; Luk 18:15; Luk 22:51; Joh 20:17.
Syn.: prospsaúō (G4379), to touch upon, touch slightly (Luk 11:46); eggÃzō (G1448), to come near; piázō (G4084), to lay hand on; kolláō (G2853), to glue; proseggÃzō (G4331), to approach.
Ant.: apéchomai (G567), to hold oneself off; egkrateúomai (G1467), to exercise self-restraint; nḗphō (G3525), to be sober; sōphronéō (G4993), to exercise soundness of mind, to think soberly, use self-control.
QuoteSo I do feel he ascended during the three days he was 'dead' and led captivity captive to heaven. Then, he ascended in his resurrected body, before he met with his brethren, and presented himself to the Father in the real holy of holies [he is both high priest and sacrifice]. Then he ascended a third time where he sits at the right hand of God.
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
Jesus said the above to Nicodemus when He was still alive. It sounds like Jesus is claiming that at that point He already has ascended to heaven..... :dontknow:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 13, 2012, 05:10:39 PM
I'm still fairly new here - so what is that word not allowed on this forum?
Trinity and free will.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/not-'banned'-yet-discouraged-and-likely-redirected-topics/
Quote from: wwDo you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming....
The crucifixion, death, and resurrection is being played out in the body of man.
Dies and goes to Hades
Spirit ascends first [leading captivity captive]
Soul ascends next [brought by the high priest as the perfect sacrifice forever into the most holy place]
Body ascends last [and sits on the right hand of God]
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 05:33:11 PM
Jabcat, you do realize that Jesus was speaking a parable in Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Parable: a short simple story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
But parables teach a certain pattern. So obviously there is a connection between what happened to Jonah and Jesus. But as I wrote a few post back: How far should we take it?
QuoteFor me "soul sleep" is something people have made up because they are afraid of the word dead/death. Religion makes death a feared destination.
For me sleep and dead is about the same. No awareness of time. So for me personally it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches. I just want to figure out what...
QuoteAnother parable...Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
That's an odd verse....
Dead seeds never bring forth anything. They are dead an eventually just rot away. Seeds that bring forth new life like flowers, wheat, etc never were really dead. To the human eye that weird little seed is useless and dead. But somewhere inside that seed is a beautiful flower waiting until spring arrives.
Do
not take this to literal: Is a seed a flower in a soul sleep phase?
Quote from: MicahWhen my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it,
That sounds like a simple statement Micah but it raises some questions.
When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?
Quoteand IN the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.
You are remembered until the forum crashes again and your posts are gone :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:43:39 PM
Quote from: wwDo you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming....
The crucifixion, death, and resurrection is being played out in the body of man.
Dies and goes to Hades
Spirit ascends first [leading captivity captive]
Soul ascends next [brought by the high priest as the perfect sacrifice forever into the most holy place]
Body ascends last [and sits on the right hand of God]
Can you add times* to the above stages. It would make it much easier for me to understand your view.
*=Not taking about split second precision but something like: Almost instantly, after 3 days, after He met Mary, after about 40 days.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 06:05:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:43:39 PM
Quote from: wwDo you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming....
The crucifixion, death, and resurrection is being played out in the body of man.
Dies and goes to Hades
Spirit ascends first [leading captivity captive]
Soul ascends next [brought by the high priest as the perfect sacrifice forever into the most holy place]
Body ascends last [and sits on the right hand of God]
Can you add times* to the above stages. It would make it much easier for me to understand your view.
*=Not taking about split second precision but something like: Almost instantly, after 3 days, after He met Mary, after about 40 days.
This is all part of the crucifixion, death, and resurrection.
death: 1) resurrection of spirit from Hades ascends
resurrection of soul 2) after he meets Mary ascends
resurrection of body 3) after he ascends in front of disciples
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 06:00:16 PM
Quote from: MicahWhen my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it,
That sounds like a simple statement Micah but it raises some questions.
When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?
Quoteand IN the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.
You are remembered until the forum crashes again and your posts are gone :winkgrin:
"When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?
As I stated "my last breath" that's the only one that matters, I would say its instant. It, my breath/spirit, was initially His, so my thought would be, He just keeps breathing and gathering the last breaths of others, to wait, being remembered IN Him.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 05:58:43 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 05:33:11 PM
Jabcat, you do realize that Jesus was speaking a parable in Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Parable: a short simple story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
But parables teach a certain pattern. So obviously there is a connection between what happened to Jonah and Jesus. But as I wrote a few post back: How far should we take it?
QuoteFor me "soul sleep" is something people have made up because they are afraid of the word dead/death. Religion makes death a feared destination.
For me sleep and dead is about the same. No awareness of time. So for me personally it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches. I just want to figure out what...
QuoteAnother parable...Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
That's an odd verse....
Dead seeds never bring forth anything. They are dead an eventually just rot away. Seeds that bring forth new life like flowers, wheat, etc never were really dead. To the human eye that weird little seed is useless and dead. But somewhere inside that seed is a beautiful flower waiting until spring arrives.
Do not take this to literal: Is a seed a flower in a soul sleep phase?
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, If it be cut down, that it will sprout again, And that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, And the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, And put forth boughs like a plant.
Rev 21:6 and He said to me, `It hath been done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 05:56:14 AM
"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah. I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days. The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it. I don't know. But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.
How about this.....
Jesus Christ ALWAYS, ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes in public in PARABLES. Parables are not LITERAL, neither do they lie. I neglected to treat this teaching of Jesus as a "parable."
It NOWHERE SAYS that Jesus would be "DEAD for three days and three nights." I just ASSUMED that is what was meant by the phrase "in the HEART OF THE EARTH."
I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah." Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone.
"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!
And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this:
"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).
The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 06:19:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 06:00:16 PM
Quote from: MicahWhen my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it,
That sounds like a simple statement Micah but it raises some questions.
When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?
Quoteand IN the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.
You are remembered until the forum crashes again and your posts are gone :winkgrin:
"When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?
As I stated "my last breath" that's the only one that matters, I would say its instant. It, my breath/spirit, was initially His, so my thought would be, He just keeps breathing and gathering the last breaths of others, to wait, being remembered IN Him.
Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?
CLUE...lAMENTATIONS 4;20 tHE LORD'S ANNOINTED OUR VERY LIFE BREATH WAS CAUGHT IN THEIR TRAPS
WE THOUGHT THAT UNDER HIS SHADOW WE WOULD LIVE AMONG THE NATIONS
Quote from: sheila on September 13, 2012, 07:47:57 PM
CLUE...lAMENTATIONS 4;20 tHE LORD'S ANNOINTED OUR VERY LIFE BREATH WAS CAUGHT IN THEIR TRAPS
WE THOUGHT THAT UNDER HIS SHADOW WE WOULD LIVE AMONG THE NATIONS
Read Lamentations as if the book was speaking to you. I can be real interesting and much can be gained.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 05:58:43 PM
That's an odd verse....
Dead seeds never bring forth anything. They are dead an eventually just rot away. Seeds that bring forth new life like flowers, wheat, etc never were really dead. To the human eye that weird little seed is useless and dead. But somewhere inside that seed is a beautiful flower waiting until spring arrives.
Do not take this to literal: Is a seed a flower in a soul sleep phase?
Don't know if this helps with shedding any light of clearer meaning, but I looked up the greek word apothanE, which literally means along the lines of MAY-BE-FROM-DYING...so the Originals may have meant either the plant "dying"/going into "winter mode", etc...rather than our literal 'dying'? Just guessing, but may-be-from-dying still sounds a little different than saying the seed is literally dead. :2c:
To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 08:55:10 PM
To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.
"Really dead seed don't produce anything."
So then you guys don't believe Jesus "really" died?
Mmmm, translations differ. It still doesn't solve the main problem for me but it's a start.
CLV (John 12:24) Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If a kernel of grain, falling into the earth, should not be dying, it is remaining alone, yet if it should be dying, it is bringing forth much fruit."
ACV (John 12:24) Truly, truly, I say to you, unless the grain of wheat that falls into the ground dies, it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit.
"Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?" WW
My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.
Yes, I believe that who I was, how I was thinking, all I ever was when I died(I will know not anything) Is captured(un conscience) in that breath/spirit UNTIL the resurrection and He is ready to makes His decision. I am speaking of the natural.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 08:55:10 PM
To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.
"Really dead seed don't produce anything."
So then you guys don't believe Jesus "really" died?
A very honest answer Micah.
My view is that He was dead "in a secular way".
But I'm seeking with an as open as possible mind. That's why you will see me gving understandings of verses that possibly contradict thoughts I expressed in another post.
A seed 'works' by the laws of nature. God can overrule those laws.
A seed just waits until spring and then all by itself becomes a flower.
But in case of Jesus we read HS raised Jesus.
Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Alright, this is really cool!
I did some research on this verse. Basically, the outer shell of the seed does literally die. Guess what's happening on the inside? The inside lives on, and germinates/regenerates/transforms.
"Critics say Jesus offers here (and Paul in 1 Cor.) a fiction that seeds literally die, which is scientifically false.
Even on the surface this objection moves too fast -- the word used for "die" (apothnesko) carries both a literal and a figurative meaning, usually with reference to death in sin (cf. Rom. 5:15). Critics assume that apothnesko equates with our modern idea of clinical death -- but how can this be so, since such a concept did not yet exist, with medical textbooks thousands of years in the future?
For this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.
Once the seed falls into fertile ground, the outer shell begins to open as it dies; and inside the dead shell, new life awaits. Then, in the right conditions, the new growth will begin to emerge. Once the seed coat breaks, the seed begins to germinate by growing down into the soil and developing a primary root." (from examiner.com and tekton.com)
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 09:09:29 PM
Alright, this is really cool!
I did some research on this verse. Basically, the outer shell of the seed does literally die. Guess what's happening on the inside? The inside lives on, and germinates/regenerates/transforms.
"Critics say Jesus offers here (and Paul in 1 Cor.) a fiction that seeds literally die, which is scientifically false.
Even on the surface this objection moves too fast -- the word used for "die" (apothnesko) carries both a literal and a figurative meaning, usually with reference to death in sin (cf. Rom. 5:15). Critics assume that apothnesko equates with our modern idea of clinical death -- but how can this be so, since such a concept did not yet exist, with medical textbooks thousands of years in the future?
For this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.
Once the seed falls into fertile ground, the outer shell begins to open as it dies; and inside the dead shell, new life awaits. Then, in the right conditions, the new growth will begin to emerge. Once the seed coat breaks, the seed begins to germinate by growing down into the soil and developing a primary root." (from examiner.com and tekton.com)
I like that, good find, that's why I like Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, If it be cut down, that it will sprout again, And that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, And the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9
Yet through the scent of water it will bud, And put forth boughs like a plant.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 09:10:12 PM
"Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?" WW
My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.
Yes, I believe that who I was, how I was thinking, all I ever was when I died(I will know not anything) Is captured(un conscience) in that breath/spirit UNTIL the resurrection and He is ready to makes His decision. I am speaking of the natural.
Sorry I don't understand what you wrote because it sounds like soul sleep which you don't believe in if I'm correct.
QuoteMy breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.
An active breath is not dead.
Quotecaptured(un conscience)
Bit like sleeping.
Micah, I know this stuff annoys your greatly; but it's how I understand your post(s)
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 09:10:30 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 08:55:10 PM
To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.
"Really dead seed don't produce anything."
So then you guys don't believe Jesus "really" died?
A very honest answer Micah.
My view is that He was dead "in a secular way".
But I'm seeking with an as open as possible mind. That's why you will see me gving understandings of verses that possibly contradict thoughts I expressed in another post.
A seed 'works' by the laws of nature. God can overrule those laws.
A seed just waits until spring and then all by itself becomes a flower.
But in case of Jesus we read HS raised Jesus.
Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
That's just why i Love Him so Much!
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 09:15:07 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 09:10:12 PM
"Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?" WW
My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.
Yes, I believe that who I was, how I was thinking, all I ever was when I died(I will know not anything) Is captured(un conscience) in that breath/spirit UNTIL the resurrection and He is ready to makes His decision. I am speaking of the natural.
Sorry I don't understand what you wrote because it sounds like soul sleep which you don't believe in if I'm correct.
QuoteMy breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.
An active breath is not dead.
Quotecaptured(un conscience)
Bit like sleeping.
Micah, I know this stuff annoys your greatly; but it's how I understand your post(s)
Well friend should you find anything about this heretic "soul sleep" mentioned in the Bible, please show me the verse. As for me soul sleep is nothing more than speculation, assumption, and theological interpretation.
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 09:12:37 PM
Alright, this is really cool!
That beats flaming hot :flamebreath:
QuoteI did some research on this verse. Basically, the outer shell of the seed does literally die. Guess what's happening on the inside? The inside lives on, and germinates/regenerates/transforms.
The outer shell obviously is the body of flesh.
Quote"Critics say Jesus offers here (and Paul in 1 Cor.) a fiction that seeds literally die, which is scientifically false.
Sounds a bit like me :Chinscratch:
QuoteEven on the surface this objection moves too fast -- the word used for "die" (apothnesko) carries both a literal and a figurative meaning, usually with reference to death in sin (cf. Rom. 5:15). Critics assume that apothnesko equates with our modern idea of clinical death -- but how can this be so, since such a concept did not yet exist, with medical textbooks thousands of years in the future?
I think the Romans were expert on dead people...
Seriously ancient Jews knew the concept of death. They didn't have million dollar stuff to measure and prove it but who needs that with a decaying body?
QuoteFor this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.
Soul
seed sleep.
QuoteOnce the seed falls into fertile ground, the outer shell begins to open as it dies; and inside the dead shell, new life awaits. Then, in the right conditions, the new growth will begin to emerge. Once the seed coat breaks, the seed begins to germinate by growing down into the soil and developing a primary root." (from examiner.com and tekton.com)
Short video showing a germinating seed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDN0yAFcQok
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2012, 09:19:42 PMWell friend should you find anything about this heretic "soul sleep" mentioned in the Bible, please show me the verse. As for me soul sleep is nothing more than speculation, assumption, and theological interpretation.
Basicly most things are speculation. Whatever your and my view is, it's based on understanding of verses.
Sure there are verses like "dead know nothing". Very clear.
But I think it's not correct to stop there. A honest seeker, I think you are, should ALSO consider that seed example.
I can tell you that for me personally it's challanging. Maybe I stick to my old view. Maybe today. Maybe it takes a year. But in the meanwhile I'm seriously considering the seed parable.
Just my view but a true seeker must consider ALL verses. Even if it causes sleepless nights.
But then, that's just my view....
:friendstu:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 09:25:41 PM
For this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.
Soul
seed sleep.
[/quote]
or the inside is awake, alive, waiting...which is what I suggested awhile back..the spirit is alive and waiting to return to its resurrected/renewed/glorified body - not dead or sleeping..
:eek:
Burried alive .... :sigh:
ha! I think the seed parable is important. To me it shows there's life inside when the outside is dead. I don't personally think it can stand alone as the "only proof" for or against soul sleep/soul death. I believe it's one thing to add into the mix of many others, to get a full picture. Again though, the thing it does show to me is, the outside dies but the whole thing is not dead or asleep. So the question, where is it and what's it doing? To me, there must be other scriptures to consider to know that answer. And one thing we have is, "the spirit returns to God".
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 09:45:08 AM
If we do we should be fair and also note Jonah didn't leave the fish for 3 days. Similary that would mean Jesus didn't leave the tomb for 3 days to preach to spirits in prison as some claim.
I think this is what the whole thing is saying. Really you can't compare Jonah with Jesus as far as death is concerned because Jesus died for sin and the world, Jonah didn't. I think it is all about the 3 days.
I was thinking about how we didn't know anything before God breathed our spirit into us, so how could we know anything after it returns to God?
Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit". I don't think Jesus knew anything until God returned his spirit to him at the time of his resurrection.
I think of it kind of like electricity. When things are unplugged they no longer work, they are dead.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 09:40:19 PM
:eek:
Burried alive .... :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
ha! I think the seed parable is important. To me it shows there's life inside when the outside is dead. I don't personally think it can stand alone as the "only proof" for or against soul sleep/soul death. I believe it's one thing to add into the mix of many others, to get a full picture. Again though, the thing it does show to me is, the outside dies but the whole thing is not dead or asleep. So the question, where is it and what's it doing? To me, there must be other scriptures to consider to know that answer. And one thing we have is, "the spirit returns to God".
so what does God do with it? Keep it and "numb" it? Kill it and later resurrect it? Have it commune/interact with Him? Dispatch it to different places to accomplish different purposes as suits His purposes? Always (or when "not in use") store it in a holding place (paradise, the abode of the dead, etc.)?
I remember Michelle Amirault saying to me once after Scott died, that she hoped/trusted he is being used to further the kingdom. It might be interesting to get her views on this topic. On the other hand, she may not want to get knee-deep in our constant meanderings.. :laugh:
Quote from: CHB on September 13, 2012, 09:48:10 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2012, 09:45:08 AM
If we do we should be fair and also note Jonah didn't leave the fish for 3 days. Similary that would mean Jesus didn't leave the tomb for 3 days to preach to spirits in prison as some claim.
I think this is what the whole thing is saying. Really you can't compare Jonah with Jesus as far as death is concerned because Jesus died for sin and the world, Jonah didn't. I think it is all about the 3 days.
I was thinking about how we didn't know anything before God breathed our spirit into us, so how could we know anything after it returns to God?
Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit". I don't think Jesus knew anything until God returned his spirit to him at the time of his resurrection.
I think of it kind of like electricity. When things are unplugged they no longer work, they are dead.
CHB
:dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on September 13, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
ha! I think the seed parable is important. To me it shows there's life inside when the outside is dead. I don't personally think it can stand alone as the "only proof" for or against soul sleep/soul death. I believe it's one thing to add into the mix of many others, to get a full picture. Again though, the thing it does show to me is, the outside dies but the whole thing is not dead or asleep. So the question, where is it and what's it doing? To me, there must be other scriptures to consider to know that answer. And one thing we have is, "the spirit returns to God".
1Co 2:10 but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit,
for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God, I just know, because my faith keeps me in the comfort that when I die, and He gets my breath/spirit back, in His time He will do with it what He will, I, at that time, know not anything. And that is probably a good thing. At rest awaiting His judgment.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 14, 2012, 01:08:15 AM
when I die, and He gets my breath/spirit back, in His time He will do with it what He will
:)
I believe that's true, He will have it and do with it what He will. I agree with that. :thumbsup:
Seems remaining questions are, "what
is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
The question is still on the table - "what was His spirit doing" (with scriptural evidence). Molly gave indication scripturally that He was proclaiming victory and releasing prisoners. Is there something more about those scriptures in I Peter that needs to be known? I'll look at them (I think it's a pretty big study though, with various opinions. However, I
think much of the difference of opinion is about whether He
suffered in "hell", or rather proclaimed and delivered there :2c:).
Blessings.
On Eph. 4:8
This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18. After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."
There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8. Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse: "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind." So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.
thanks, I'll take that into account as I look at it some more.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
--Eph 4
HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE
He's leading something here out of the depths of the earth. What's he leading?
"he led captivity captive"
G162
αἰχμαλωτεύω
aichmalōteuō
aheekh-mal-o-tew'-o
From G164; to capture (like G163): -to lead captive.
G161
αἰχμαλωσία
aichmalōsia
aheekh-mal-o-see'-ah
From G164; captivity: - captivity.
how do you lead 'captivity'? If you look at the root word, G164, you will see that 'captivity' is 'prisoners of war.' He has taken captive the prisoners of war of the enemy when he descended into the lower parts of the earth after death, and is leading them out of bondage when he ascends.
G164
aichmalōtos
properly a prisoner of war, that is, (generally) a captive
There's that victory parade. He is ascending into heaven with the enemy's prisoners' of war following behind him. He has taken them captive to himself! :dsunny:
22 The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: Psa 68
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4
A former member apparently had viewed the thread and graciously emailed me to point out Isaiah 61:1 in terms of Jesus releasing those in bondage, individuals. I had overlooked this. Thanks and blessings. So Molly, I'm guessing you'd say what you're presenting is [part of] Jesus fulfilling this;
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;"
Also Luke 4:18; "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,"
Jab, I'm describing a subset of that because I am just talking about the dead, and that covers the living and the dead IMO.
Good point, I agree.
Eph. 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led "captivity captive," and gave gifts unto men.
Just what did God hold captive? Maybe the adversary? Jesus ascended, he is going, up on high..and from there LED "captivity" (something caught) and remained captive.
What or whoever was "in" captivity was now, "again captive." I just don't see anything freed here such as "prisoners of war." Dead or alive.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air....... Now here is something that could be a captive and remain in captivity, and I know it says "air", but "air" is certainly can be "high."
"HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE He's leading something here out of the depths of the earth. What's he leading?" Molly
As I read it, he ascended up and led captivity captive, I don't read any leading out of the depths.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He "first" descended, but no leading of captivity or captives, or am I reading this wrong?
"Jab, I'm describing a subset of that because I am just talking about the dead, and that covers the living and the dead IMO." Molly
I don't see those dead of the OT as being captives, was God holding them captive? Remember, as I understand it they are dust and there breath/spirit is with the one who gave it. Am I to understand they were captives in captivity to remain captives?
CAPTIVITY G161 aichmalōsia captivity. G164 aichmalōtos properly a prisoner of war, that is, (generally) a captive: - captive.
G259 halōsis capture: - be taken.
G142 airō A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away;
HIGH G5311 elevation, that is, (abstractly) altitude, (specifically) the sky, or (figuratively) dignity: - be exalted, height, (on) high.
Now here is a captive in captivity.....Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
:) without digging right now (I'm following this middle east travesty) doesn't the relevant scrip say "those who were disobedient in the days of Noah"?
Quote from: MicahNow here is a captive in captivity.....Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
You think he is leading satan captive as he ascends into heaven?
Does 'captivity' mean satan?
When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,
Captivity means a group of prisoners of war. This is what Paul gets for being such a poetic writer.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 06:49:25 AM
Quote from: MicahNow here is a captive in captivity.....Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
You think he is leading satan captive as he ascends into heaven?
Does 'captivity' mean satan?
When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,
Captivity means a group of prisoners of war. This is what Paul gets for being such a poetic writer.
"prisoners of war" is your pick from Strong's
Young's Literal: For this reason Scripture says: "He re-ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and gave gifts to men."
NLT: That is why the Scriptures say, "When he ascended to the heights, he led a crowd of captives and gave gifts to his people." (NLT - Tyndale House)
Wuest: Wherefore He says, Having ascended on high, He led away captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men. (Eerdmans
Commentary on Psalm 68
In this Psalm David is extolling the Name of Jehovah because of the great victory He had given him. David's victory reminds him of the prior glorious "victorious" acts of God, including the Red Sea crossing, destruction of Pharaoh's hosts, the subsequent wilderness journey and entrance into the Promised Land of Canaan. In each of these scenarios God's people were in dire straits and yet God, as it were, had come down and delivered them and then ascended back to heaven! And herein we see the wisdom of God's inspiration of David who spoke primarily of a local event, which the Spirit intended to have a double meaning, a greater prophetic message, foretelling what would happen to the Messiah over a millennium later! From comparison of the Old and the New Testament passages, it is also clear that Paul is teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah. As an aside, the exact fulfillment of such detailed prophecies of course provides one of the great proofs of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures.)
John MacArthur comments on Paul's use of Psalm 68 noting that this psalm...
is a victory hymn composed by David to celebrate God's conquest of the Jebusite city and the triumphant ascent of God (represented by the Ark of the Covenant) up Mount Zion (cf. 2 As. 6-7; 1Chr 13). After a king won such a victory he would bring home the spoils and enemy prisoners to parade before his people. An Israelite king would take his retinue through the holy city of Jerusalem and up Mount Zion.
Another feature of the victory parade, however, would be the display of the king's own soldiers who had been freed after being held prisoner by the enemy. These were often referred to as recaptured captives—prisoners who had been taken prisoner again, so to speak, by their own king and given freedom. (MacArthur, J: Ephesians. Chicago: Moody Press)
So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.
That should be a hint as to validity.
The church got it right, Micah. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
We do go to heaven when we die.
Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?
Now, when what is decaying is clothed with what cannot decay, and what is dying is clothed with what cannot die, then the written word will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up by victory!" 1 cor 15:54
2 Corinthians 5:4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?
1 Cor 15:55
THANKS BE TO GOD WHO GIVES US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
1 Cor 15:57
:sigh: You really can't move on can you Molly, you are stuck, that is a loss. You fill the prophecy subject line with current events on how you see whats going to happen. You are a student of the Bible, but still as so many who love the Lord will not let lose of denominational and religious teachings. Molly, the Bible breaths, the Bible is Spirit, it does not change it opens up to it says when believers yield to the speaking of the Holy Spirit, that cloud by day, the pillar of fire. He is bringing those who will hear upward. Molly, people die, dead. Yes, we are born again and alive, still death is the step to life. Even if it is for a split millia second, death is what the Lord God said Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And He cannot lie Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
I believe Him.
Just so you know Micah, I haven't been to church since I left high school.
I loved church, and the music especially which I always participated in, but I didn't learn much [as in knowledge] while I was there. I did learn a lot of scripture and a lot of Old Testament--direct readings from the Bible.
So, whatever you think I can't 'move on' from, it's not church.
You can't blame me on church.
But, thanks be to God who has given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe God, too.
There's no need to make this personal. Let's stick to the issues and talk about what we understand in scriptures. We all see through a glass darkly. We all have bits we've been given to understand. If any one of us tires of a particular topic or what's going on in it, we have the option of moving on to another thread or whatever else suits us. Thanks.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another.. Rm. 12:10
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
The shell is the corruptible body.
The fish is Hades/Death.
The seed is Christ.
Funny thing: Jonah was running from God when he landed in that fish, then suddenly, he remembered to pray.
QuoteThe question is still on the table - "what was His spirit doing" (with scriptural evidence). Molly gave indication scripturally that He was proclaiming victory and releasing prisoners. Is there something more about those scriptures in I Peter that needs to be known? I'll look at them (I think it's a pretty big study though, with various opinions. However, I think much of the difference of opinion is about whether He suffered in "hell", or rather proclaimed and delivered there :2c:).
Some views.
Jesus proclaimed the Gospel not teaching it. Jesus didn't went to meet people but angels that were chained since the day of Noach. Not to teach them but to tell them "Hi dudes I've won!"
Jesus didn't proclaim Himself but trough the spirit.
The people mentioned were regular Jews He preached to in the last 3 years (3 days). Basicly menaing His days on earth were a grave to Him.
The mentioning of preaching doesn't mean it happend in the 3 days in the grave.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
the 2 scriptures were used to attempt to prove soul/spirit sleep.
i'm saying in both instances, there was a burial of something but life inside continued. (seed has outer shell that contains life inside, Jonah's body as an outer shell contained life inside).
either that's a perfect analogy and it means the whole person doesn't die or sleep so debunks soul sleep rather than proves it,
or, the analogy is not a complete 1:1 comparison, i.e., there's an analogy to be made and lessons to be learned, but a
completely detailed doctrine of soul sleep/
not soul sleep cannot be made from it
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
The shell is the corruptible body.
The fish is Hades/Death.
The seed is Christ.
Then which is which?
Jesus was a seed in a tomb?
Tomb=Hades=Fish=Earth the seed falls into
Jonah-body=Jesus-body=Seed-shell
The problem is that Jesus said I command you my spirit, gave up the ghost/spirit and similar translations.
That sounds like the men burried Jesus
empty shell. Meaning the real seed was never in the earth.
I agree with the Jesus in the tomb, and I've never ever thought otherwise... so I was writing this when I went to post and saw yours Tony, so it flows together. I'd written;
yes, even though Jonah's body was buried, he was still able to commune with God in his spirit.
don't get me wrong..i DON"T believe the spirit is buried in the ground upon death, so that there would be consciousness as Tony said, "buried alive"...i believe it's clear the spirit returns to God, so it ain't in the ground..thankfully!!!! (i'm a bit claustrophobic :) I need to FLY!!!
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 10:05:49 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
the 2 scriptures were used to attempt to prove soul/spirit sleep.
I know. But when we take parallel, pattern, or whatver name you want to give it we need to define how far we can take that pattern. (and why).
So I make this simple statement.
The story of Jonah proves with 100% certainty/Scriptually Jesus did in no shape or form went to the spirits in prison during those 3 days in the grave/tomb.
so, i don't think the Jonah and seed analogy
a) proves soul/spirit sleep at all
b) is meant to be a complete thesis on what happens to the soul/spirit at death, other than
c) it certainly appears there's internal life remaining - but I DON"T believe those 2 passages explain in totality what that spirit life is doing. IMO, we must look elsewhere for those further details. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 10:14:30 AM
So I make this simple statement.
The story of Jonah proves with 100% certainty/Scriptually Jesus did in no shape or form went to the spirits in prison during those 3 days in the grave/tomb.
I see it the opposite. I see it only going so far as saying Jesus would be buried as was Jonah (and indicating Jonah still had spirit life inside, although that may not be the point of the scrip), but not explaining
at all what Jesus' spirit actually did or didn't do during those 3 days (other than not die or sleep?). I don't think His specific activity is addressed in the Jonah analogy. Again, I believe if that information is available to us, it is to be found elsewhere.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
The shell is the corruptible body.
The fish is Hades/Death.
The seed is Christ.
Then which is which?
Jesus was a seed in a tomb?
Tomb=Hades=Fish=Earth the seed falls into
Jonah-body=Jesus-body=Seed-shell
The problem is that Jesus said I command you my spirit, gave up the ghost/spirit and similar translations.
That sounds like the men burried Jesus empty shell. Meaning the real seed was never in the earth.
No, we're kind of mixing everything up between the two examples. Jesus went somewhere where he could preach to others --It says he was dead in the flesh but quickened [that is brought to life] by the Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison. It's one big run on sentence.
Jesus says I lay down my life and I pick it up again. That's exactly what happened.
Jonah is a bit different. Jonah is not God but he has the seed of Christ [which I guess I could say quickens him to make that connection with God, i.e. to pray].
"dead in the flesh but quickened [that is brought to life] by the Spirit"
that SOUNDS instantaneous to me...is there any compelling evidence anywhere in scripture that that's not the case? (not that I know of)
Moments before Jesus died He said: It's done!
Done, completed, finished, my mission is over, etc etc.
God reacted with an earthquake that opened tombs and resurrected the people inside those tombs (let's ignore if those people lived a decade or still live).
I think it was Father's way of saying: Yes Son it's done. It's comple. Great job!
When Mary arrived at the tomb there was another earthquake. Was that the moment of Jesus resurrection?
I'm not claiming every earthquake is a resurrection but I just wanted to mention it.
So both Father and Son agreed it was finished.
That brings me to "tetelestai"
A greek work on legal documents that stated all debts are officially paid. "paid in full".
Some claim Jesus went to heaven for a short while between meeting Mary and the Apostles (especially Thomas).
He went to heaven for priestly duties.
But why? Both Father and Son agreed it was done and completed.
It's like I have a huge debt. I work very hard and pay my debt. I recieve a document I'm 100% debt free. And then I'm told I need to do more to cancel that debt.
Meaning. Jesus died and paid. Father put a huge tetelestai stamp on mankinds debt document. Jesus resurrects. Meets Mary and basicly gets extremely scared because nobody may defile Him before He does His priestly duties in Heaven. What if Mary touched Him (which is my belief)?
Would Father rip the debt certicate and shout: Son it's undone. Bad luck. Try again!
Nope it was really perfectly done. Father who known no shadow of turning would rip up the document He declared 100% valid 3 days ago? :footmouth:
:2c:
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 10:12:59 AM
don't get me wrong..i DON"T believe the spirit is buried in the ground upon death, so that there would be consciousness as Tony said, "buried alive"...
Good to see you got my point. I was 'affraid' people would just assume it was a funny zombie remark. Well it was but obviously had a much deeper meaning.
The book of Hebrews talks about him going to heaven to the real holy of holies and as High Priest, presenting the sacrifice to God, one time, forever. So this had to happen at some point.
This is the transition to the Melchizedek priesthood, based on an indestructible life, because it is based on the blood of Christ not the blood of man [Levi].
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 10:19:38 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 10:14:30 AM
So I make this simple statement.
The story of Jonah proves with 100% certainty/Scriptually Jesus did in no shape or form went to the spirits in prison during those 3 days in the grave/tomb.
I see it the opposite. I see it only going so far as saying Jesus would be buried as was Jonah (and indicating Jonah still had spirit life inside, although that may not be the point of the scrip), but not explaining at all what Jesus' spirit actually did or didn't do during those 3 days (other than not die or sleep?). I don't think His specific activity is addressed in the Jonah analogy. Again, I believe if that information is available to us, it is to be found elsewhere.
You took the bait. Like abig bad fish :laugh:
Jonah was trapped. Really trapped. Didn't sound to happy about it. There is zero indication he left that fish in those 3 days.
So my point is: If we have have to take the analogy all the way we should be so fair to also apply that part of both stories.
Jonah was totally stuck for 3 days so that tells us about Jesus. He also was totally stuck for 3 days.
If that's not the case why? Why we take only a part of the analogy? Am I allowed to remove even more parts? Why? Why not? What are the limits?
Jonah was alive and praying. That for example can be used to prove Jesus was praying in the tomb. But if others are allowed to ignore the bit about Jonah being totally trapped why am I not allowed to ignore that part?
I think we agree there are limits to pattern. It's said the only sign given is that of Jonah. Does that mean Jesus was a fraud because He never was inside a big fish but in a luxary tomb? I'm sure everybody answers no to that. Why the pattern suddenly stops there?
Summary: Patterns, yes sure! How far we take them... hummm not that easy!
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:24:14 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
The shell is the corruptible body.
The fish is Hades/Death.
The seed is Christ.
Then which is which?
Jesus was a seed in a tomb?
Tomb=Hades=Fish=Earth the seed falls into
Jonah-body=Jesus-body=Seed-shell
The problem is that Jesus said I command you my spirit, gave up the ghost/spirit and similar translations.
That sounds like the men burried Jesus empty shell. Meaning the real seed was never in the earth.
No, we're kind of mixing everything up between the two examples.
That's just my point. Selective pick and choose.
QuoteJesus went somewhere where he could preach to others
Which is your view. A view that the very topic of the thread. Was Jesus really dead? The very thing we are trying to figure out.
Quote--It says he was dead in the flesh but quickened [that is brought to life] by the Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison. It's one big run on sentence.
So now, conveniently, we ignore Jonah?
QuoteJesus says I lay down my life and I pick it up again. That's exactly what happened.
That doesn't prove a thing. He didn't say He will pick it up instantly. Picking up after 3 days is also picking up. Besides of that laying down and picking up is just a figure of speech because Jesus didn't resurrect Himself. The HS did that.
QuoteJonah is a bit different. Jonah is not God but he has the seed of Christ [which I guess I could say quickens him to make that connection with God, i.e. to pray].
We agree on that. Jonah isn't Father or Son. But if you/anyone is so keen on using certain bits of Jonah's story to support a certain doctrine/view then why not claim Jesus=Jonah.
To be clear imo Jesus is NOT Jonah. It just sounds feels like selective reading. Say Jonah's a Jesus' story contain 10 points that form a pattern. We both pick 7 points that (seem to) prove our view. We each ignore 3 different points because <insert convenient argument>.
The Jabcat gets involved and he only uses 5 points. Is he more wrong because his view required 5 Scriptual statement to be ignored. Or is he more right because he's more able to ignore non relavant points?
Who picked the correct points? Who gave us the autority to discard certain points?
Maybe this is the only implied parallel between the 2 stories:
Both were inside a dark place for 3 days and both exited that place alive.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:41:09 AM
The book of Hebrews talks about him going to heaven to the real holy of holies and as High Priest, presenting the sacrifice to God, one time, forever.
I was in no way trying to imply He did not do so.
QuoteSo this had to happen at some point.
At some point. But when?
During those 3 days? I can just as well state after 40 days.
3 days in the grave.
Then Jesus walks the earth for another 40 days. 40... that very nice Exodus number. Was Jesus still on the wrong side of the Jordan so to speak?
Then finally after 40 days when everybody watched Him going up He crossed the Jordan.
Then 10 days later at Pentecost the HS comes as flames.
Could it that Jesus performed His Priestly duties you described in those 10 days?
10 another special number. The days of Awe. The days between the start of the year and Atonement day.
No one is using bits of stories to compare Jesus and Jonah. You're the one who's doing that.
Let's look at what Jesus says,
39 But He replied to them, An evil and adulterous generation (a generation [t]morally unfaithful to God) seeks and demands a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For even as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, Someone more and greater than Jonah is here!
--Mat 12
The sign he gives is 3 days and 3 nights--that's it.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and
led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:25:22 AM
No one is using bits of stories to compare Jesus and Jonah. You're the one who's doing that.
Where for example?
QuoteLet's look at what Jesus says,
39 But He replied to them, An evil and adulterous generation (a generation [t]morally unfaithful to God) seeks and demands a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For even as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, Someone more and greater than Jonah is here!
--Mat 12
The sign he gives is 3 days and 3 nights--that's it.
So the sign isn't: Be alive and do stuff while caught inside.
So that means Jonah can't be used to prove Jesus was dead, alive, soulsleeping etc during those 3 days.
No one is using Jonah to prove anything about Jesus.
We are using Jonah to prove things about ourselves.
At least, that's what I thought.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured.
When do you expect His 4th coming?
1st coming: Jesus born on earth.
2nd coming: Jesus returns from leading the captives away (during the 3 days).
3rd coming: Jesus performed priestly duties in heaven after He met Mary and before He met Thomas.
4th coming: Milenium
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:41:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured.
When do you expect His 4th coming?
1st coming: Jesus born on earth.
2nd coming: Jesus returns from leading the captives away (during the 3 days).
3rd coming: Jesus performed priestly duties in heaven after He met Mary and before He met Thomas.
4th coming: Milenium
Millenium is the second coming.
The two middle ones are all part of the death and resurrection process. Or do you really think that process would be simple--go to sleep wake up glorified body.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:37:12 AM
No one is using Jonah to prove anything about Jesus.
We are using Jonah to prove things about ourselves.
At least, that's what I thought.
Everything I posted was about Jesus. (and Jonah)
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.
Another question/remark.
Those captives are about the people in Noach's time.
Why did Jesus only liberate them?
Sure there must have been some after the flood that need to be released?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:37:12 AM
No one is using Jonah to prove anything about Jesus.
We are using Jonah to prove things about ourselves.
At least, that's what I thought.
Everything I posted was about Jesus. (and Jonah)
Well, Jesus himself says that he and Jonah only have 3 days and 3 nights in common.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.
Another question/remark.
Those captives are about the people in Noach's time.
Why did Jesus only liberate them?
Sure there must have been some after the flood that need to be released?
After the flood comes the Law. A different case. Hebrews says they are waiting for us to receive the promise. I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
Don't worry! Jesus has it all covered! [can I go to sleep now? lol] I'm too tired to make up theology on the spot.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:45:17 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:41:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured.
When do you expect His 4th coming?
1st coming: Jesus born on earth.
2nd coming: Jesus returns from leading the captives away (during the 3 days).
3rd coming: Jesus performed priestly duties in heaven after He met Mary and before He met Thomas.
4th coming: Milenium
Millenium is the second coming.
The two middle ones are all part of the death and resurrection process. Or do you really think that process would be simple--go to sleep wake up glorified body.
I don't know how simple the process is.
But did you understand the intend of my short list?
How can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?
Or don't certain steps don't count because they are intermediate stages?
To me it seems there is nothing intermediate about the leading captives to heaven. Imo those people reached their final goal. Not a intermediate step.
:2c:
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:37:12 AM
No one is using Jonah to prove anything about Jesus.
We are using Jonah to prove things about ourselves.
At least, that's what I thought.
Everything I posted was about Jesus. (and Jonah)
Well, Jesus himself says that he and Jonah only have 3 days and 3 nights in common.
I thought I was clear about that Molly. Seems not to be the case. So I state: You are 100% totally correct about that Molly.
But I think our disagreement lays in the extend of Jesus quote.
Did Jesus only meant the time period? (3 days and 3 nights)
Or
also the events that took place within that mentioned period of time?
QuoteHow can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?
Because I see it as Jesus going through the same process as we go through, being saved in spirit first, then soul, then body. Or the 3 sections of the Temple. So everyone in the outer court is saved in spirit because that part is open to everyone. After that it gets more complicated as you move into the Temple.
So Jesus is first quickened in spirit. But, since he is a quickening spirit, he quickens others.
Ascends to heaven with those. Then soul is the body that Mary sees. This is not yet a glorified body, technically speaking. He ascends a second time and presents his soul to God in the holy of holies. Now the transfer to the Melchizedek priesthood. So glorification of the body is the last, when he ascends a final time to heaven and sits on the right hand of God. Steven sees him there.
That's the best I can do to explain how I see it.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.
Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?
He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.
Another question/remark.
Those captives are about the people in Noach's time.
Why did Jesus only liberate them?
Sure there must have been some after the flood that need to be released?
After the flood comes the Law. A different case. Hebrews says they are waiting for us to receive the promise. I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
That's also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
QuoteDon't worry! Jesus has it all covered! [can I go to sleep now? lol]
Ok, join your soul :gimmefive:
Quotealso problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
I don't know what you mean by that. God writes the new covenant in the Old Testament.
Consider it a will. When I die, my Son will inherit such and such and Isreal [two houses] will be his co-inheritors.
Then he dies on the cross, and everyone inherits!
Jesus is the executor of the will and passes out the inheritance to the beneficiaries at the time appointed in the will.
http://www.scionofzion.com/dtljcgth.htm
Summary
So the prisoners that Christ was preaching to were all the unbelievers at the time of Noah, through Him indwelling Noah with the Holy Spirit. They were not in any special place but were all walking around the earth.
http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection
That would suggest the following sequence: death, resurrection, ascension, proclamation to the spirits in prison.
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/7Humans/DeathUnderstanding1Peter3_18.aspx
http://www.ukapologetics.net/08/lightning/1a.htm
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:12:37 PM
Quotealso problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
I don't know what you mean by that.
Quote from: MollyI think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:02:41 PM
QuoteHow can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?
Because I see it as Jesus going through the same process as we go through, being saved in spirit first, then soul, then body. Or the 3 sections of the Temple. So everyone in the outer court is saved in spirit because that part is open to everyone. After that it gets more complicated as you move into the Temple.
So Jesus is first quickened in spirit. But, since he is a quickening spirit, he quickens others.
Ascends to heaven with those. Then soul is the body that Mary sees. This is not yet a glorified body, technically speaking. He ascends a second time and presents his soul to God in the holy of holies. Now the transfer to the Melchizedek priesthood. So glorification of the body is the last, when he ascends a final time to heaven and sits on the right hand of God. Steven sees him there.
That's the best I can do to explain how I see it.
So there is:
Comming 1a - past --> Birth
Comming 1b - past --> Returning after brought people from Noach time to heaven
Comming 1c - past --> Returning from the trip to heaven shortly after He met Mary.
Comming 2 - past --> Millenium
In Revelation we read about Jesus establsihing His Kingdom and several resurrection.
Jesus was the First fruit. First person of the first harvest. I think the resurrection took place during the First Fruit festival day.
Jesus was put in the grave. At some point during the 3 days he was resurrected. (first fruits)
Then He went to prison and led those people away to heaven. Were those people resurrected? If yes it means Revelation already started to unfold because the resurrections are part of Revelation.
Another thing I remember from our previous chats is that you hold the view that the thief on the cross was resurrected that same day or even never died. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He established His Kingdom.
That would mean Jesus estrablished His Kingdom within a few hours after His death (day was almost over)
That even more overlap with Revelation.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:02:41 PM
QuoteHow can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?
Because I see it as Jesus going through the same process as we go through, being saved in spirit first, then soul, then body. Or the 3 sections of the Temple. So everyone in the outer court is saved in spirit because that part is open to everyone. After that it gets more complicated as you move into the Temple.
So Jesus is first quickened in spirit. But, since he is a quickening spirit, he quickens others.
Ascends to heaven with those. Then soul is the body that Mary sees. This is not yet a glorified body, technically speaking. He ascends a second time and presents his soul to God in the holy of holies. Now the transfer to the Melchizedek priesthood. So glorification of the body is the last, when he ascends a final time to heaven and sits on the right hand of God. Steven sees him there.
That's the best I can do to explain how I see it.
2Co_1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience,
that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
2Co_11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from
the simplicity that is in Christ.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
So there is:
Comming 1a - past --> Birth
Comming 1b - past --> Returning after brought people from Noach time to heaven
Comming 1c - past --> Returning from the trip to heaven shortly after He met Mary.
Comming 2 - past --> Millenium
In Revelation we read about Jesus establsihing His Kingdom and several resurrection.
Jesus was the First fruit. First person of the first harvest. I think the resurrection took place during the First Fruit festival day.
Jesus was put in the grave. At some point during the 3 days he was resurrected. (first fruits)
Then He went to prison and led those people away to heaven. Were those people resurrected? If yes it means Revelation already started to unfold because the resurrections are part of Revelation.
Another thing I remember from our previous chats is that you hold the view that the thief on the cross was resurrected that same day or even never died. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He established His Kingdom.
That would mean Jesus estrablished His Kingdom within a few hours after His death (day was almost over)
That even more overlap with Revelation.
Yeah, it gets really complicated with Jesus coming and going. Why do we put limits on Him by saying "Second Coming" as if we don't want Him around until the Big Event? Read the book
I Am With You Always; True Stories of Encounters with Jesus by G. Scott Sparrow. We see in that book that Jesus is showing up in the here-and-now over and over. Lots of comings - He's just going about His Father's business.
As far as the thief on the cross, what did Jesus say to him? That he would be in Paradise with Him. When? That day? It depends on where the comma goes, and the comma had not been invented in Luke's day. I don't care to base theology on punctuation. In fact, Jesus told Mary three days later that He had not yet ascended, so I doubt that He had yet been in Paradise with the thief.
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 10:12:59 AM
I agree with the Jesus in the tomb, and I've never ever thought otherwise... so I was writing this when I went to post and saw yours Tony, so it flows together. I'd written;
yes, even though Jonah's body was buried, he was still able to commune with God in his spirit.
don't get me wrong..i DON"T believe the spirit is buried in the ground upon death, so that there would be consciousness as Tony said, "buried alive"...i believe it's clear the spirit returns to God, so it ain't in the ground..thankfully!!!! (i'm a bit claustrophobic :) I need to FLY!!!
Okay, I'm speaking here of a human being who died. To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead. From what I know there is a resurrection from the DEAD. How God handles that breath/spirit, is up to Him while it's there, but the complete assurance He is the RESURRECTION of the dead.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 14, 2012, 05:06:11 PM
To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead.
The body goes back to dust, yes, dead. We understand that.
The breath/spirit returns to the One who gave it, alive, never dead. That is ineffable.
"Yeah, it gets really complicated with Jesus coming and going. Why do we put limits on Him by saying "Second Coming" as if we don't want Him around until the Big Event?" WW.
There is no "second coming" in my Bible. So for me it is not complicated.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Coming G3952 parousia a being near, G3918 pareimi to be near, that is, at hand;
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 14, 2012, 05:17:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 14, 2012, 05:06:11 PM
To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead.
The body goes back to dust, yes, dead. We understand that.
The breath/spirit returns to the One who gave it, alive, never dead. That is ineffable.
Ok, then Jesus
is not the resurrection of the dead, got it.
that is why it is called the breath of life...let every breathing thing praise God. God is a spirit..and when He sends forthout of His mouth a breath of life
it is spirit sent forth..and does not return to Him void/empty/dead
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 10:05:49 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?
In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.
"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?
Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?
the 2 scriptures were used to attempt to prove soul/spirit sleep.
i'm saying in both instances, there was a burial of something but life inside continued. (seed has outer shell that contains life inside, Jonah's body as an outer shell contained life inside).
either that's a perfect analogy and it means the whole person doesn't die or sleep so debunks soul sleep rather than proves it, or, the analogy is not a complete 1:1 comparison, i.e., there's an analogy to be made and lessons to be learned, but a completely detailed doctrine of soul sleep/not soul sleep cannot be made from it
Seeing that Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
is a parable, are there any similar experiences that happened to Jonas in the big fish as to Jesus in the "heart of the earth?"
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 14, 2012, 05:21:37 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 14, 2012, 05:17:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 14, 2012, 05:06:11 PM
To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead.
The body goes back to dust, yes, dead. We understand that.
The breath/spirit returns to the One who gave it, alive, never dead. That is ineffable.
Ok, then Jesus is not the resurrection of the dead, got it.
I didn't say that, only that the breath/spirit never dies, as it is some kind of life force. Jesus will accomplish the resurrection by means of this same breath/spirit/life force.
a spirit can be dead in unbeleif...a new spirit/Christ/beleif given is resurrection to a life state...the hour is coming when all in the tombs will hear His voice and come out
so...they will hear what they had not heard[the voice of their Lord] and when they hear they will put faith in Him..and obey..and come forth from their tomb.
you could say God did cpr on fallen Adam when He sent forth the Christ to breatheternal life into the dead. cardio-heart pulmonary/spirit
Quote from: sheila on September 14, 2012, 05:28:20 PM
that is why it is called the breath of life...let every breathing thing praise God. God is a spirit..and when He sends forthout of His mouth a breath of life
it is spirit sent forth..and does not return to Him void/empty/dead
"that is why it is called the breath of life...let every breathing thing praise God." Amen and Glory!
"God is a spirit..." No, God IS spirit.
"it is spirit sent forth..and does not return to Him void/empty/dead" Don't quite get that, but His word will not return void. But, does that mean He is not the resurrector of the dead? How does God resurrect the dead if it ain't dead?
what is the modern ratio for cpr....15 compressions to circulate the blood through the heart and mind and body to two Breaths?
breath of God into Adam..Christ breathed on them...that's two...at the mouth of two or three wittness' let every matter be settled.
these words are spirit and life...man does not live by bread alone..but by every word of God from the mouth of God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 12:52:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:12:37 PM
Quotealso problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
I don't know what you mean by that.
Quote from: MollyI think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?
The new covenant is a will. It goes into effect the minute someone dies.
That is how a will works.
The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 14, 2012, 05:05:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
So there is:
Comming 1a - past --> Birth
Comming 1b - past --> Returning after brought people from Noach time to heaven
Comming 1c - past --> Returning from the trip to heaven shortly after He met Mary.
Comming 2 - past --> Millenium
In Revelation we read about Jesus establsihing His Kingdom and several resurrection.
Jesus was the First fruit. First person of the first harvest. I think the resurrection took place during the First Fruit festival day.
Jesus was put in the grave. At some point during the 3 days he was resurrected. (first fruits)
Then He went to prison and led those people away to heaven. Were those people resurrected? If yes it means Revelation already started to unfold because the resurrections are part of Revelation.
Another thing I remember from our previous chats is that you hold the view that the thief on the cross was resurrected that same day or even never died. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He established His Kingdom.
That would mean Jesus estrablished His Kingdom within a few hours after His death (day was almost over)
That even more overlap with Revelation.
Yeah, it gets really complicated with Jesus coming and going. Why do we put limits on Him by saying "Second Coming" as if we don't want Him around until the Big Event? Read the book I Am With You Always; True Stories of Encounters with Jesus by G. Scott Sparrow. We see in that book that Jesus is showing up in the here-and-now over and over. Lots of comings - He's just going about His Father's business.
As far as the thief on the cross, what did Jesus say to him? That he would be in Paradise with Him. When? That day? It depends on where the comma goes, and the comma had not been invented in Luke's day. I don't care to base theology on punctuation. In fact, Jesus told Mary three days later that He had not yet ascended, so I doubt that He had yet been in Paradise with the thief.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/grave-paradise-and-all-these-things/msg130406/#msg130406
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/matt-1618-and-the-gates-of-hell-(hades)-shall-not-prevail-against-it/msg129707/#msg129707
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/christ's-death/msg107922/#msg107922
Etc. :-)
We have already been partially resurrected, spirit and soul, and only await the resurrection of the body. The physical death of the body will in no way affect this.
What should we say then? Should we keep on sinning so that God's grace can increase? 2 Not at all! As far as sin is concerned, we are dead. So how can we keep on sinning? 3 All of us were baptized into Christ Jesus. Don't you know that we were baptized into his death? 4 By being baptized, we were buried with Christ into his death. Christ has been raised from the dead by the Father's glory. And like Christ we also can live a new life.
5 By being baptized, we have been joined with him in his death. We will certainly also be joined with him in his resurrection. 6 We know that what we used to be was nailed to the cross with him. That happened so our sinful bodies would lose their power. We are no longer slaves of sin. 7 Those who have died have been set free from sin.
8 We died with Christ. So we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ was raised from the dead and will never die again. Death doesn't control him anymore. 10 When he died, he died once and for all time as far as sin is concerned. Now that he lives, he lives as far as God is concerned.
11 In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead as far as sin is concerned. Now that you believe in Christ Jesus, consider yourselves to be alive as far as God is concerned.
12 So don't let sin rule your body, which is going to die. Don't obey its evil longings. 13 Don't give the parts of your body to serve sin. Don't let them be used to do evil. Instead, give yourselves to God. You have been brought from death to life. Give the parts of your body to him to do what is right.
14 Sin will not be your master. Law does not rule you. God's grace has set you free.
--Rom 6
If God has translated us from death to life, we will not die again. After this body dies, to which we are already dead, we will await the resurrection of the body in heaven with Christ.
We know that the earthly tent we live in will be destroyed. But we have a building made by God. It is a house in heaven that lasts forever. Human hands did not build it.
2 During our time on earth we groan. We long to put on our house in heaven as if it were clothing. 3 Then we will not be naked.
4 While we live in this tent of ours, we groan under our heavy load. We don't want to be naked. We want to be dressed with our house in heaven. What must die will be swallowed up by life.
5 God has made us for that very purpose. He has given us the Holy Spirit as a down payment. The Spirit makes us sure of what is still to come.
6 So here is what we can always be certain about. As long as we are at home in our bodies, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by believing, not by seeing.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5
So there you go. Paul tells us that when we are absent from the body, that is, physical death, we will be present with the Lord.
This is all possible because we are "joined with Christ"--in his death, and in his resurrection.
we are
dead with Christ
apothnesko sun Christos
so that we may also
live with him
suzao autos
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 12:52:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:12:37 PM
Quotealso problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
I don't know what you mean by that.
Quote from: MollyI think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?
The new covenant is a will. It goes into effect the minute someone dies.
That is how a will works.
The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.
So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?
exactly,when the word of God come in flesh..it became one with flesh. if you are born of the spirit..you are born of celestial flesh...conceived of the will
of the Father into the Kingdom of the son of His love.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 12:52:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:12:37 PM
Quotealso problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
I don't know what you mean by that.
Quote from: MollyI think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?
The new covenant is a will. It goes into effect the minute someone dies.
That is how a will works.
The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.
So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?
The New Testament is a will. It goes into effect as soon as the testator dies.
If you want to know what is in the will, read it. But, whether you read it or not, it still goes into effect when the testator dies.
"For we know, That if the tent of our earthy dwelling be taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, aionian, in the heavens. For indeed to this we are groaning, earnestly desiring to be invested with that habitation of our which is from [not 'in'] heaven: surely, having been invested, we shall not be found destitute.
For, indeed, those being in the tent are groaning, being oppressed; in which we desire not to be divested [naked], but invested [clothed], that the mortal may be absorbed by LIFE. Now He Who has produced this for this same thing is that God Who has given to us the pledge of the Spirit.
Therefore, being always confident, and knowing that being at home in the body [our body, in the flesh] we are from home [our real home, our immortal home], away from the Lord; for we are walking by Faith, not by sight ['Blessed are they that have NOT seen, and yet have believed' John 20:29] But we are confident, and well-pleased rather to be separated from the body, and TO BE [not instantly, but at a future time] at home [with our new spiritual bodies like Christ's] with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:1-8, Emphatic Diaglott).
Yes..our earthly tent is our terrestial body from terrestial seed/weak with seed of serpent entering into and bringing death to it. The celestial seed also raises up
it's own body in the likeness of the glorified Son of God...incorruptible deathless
Quote from: Micah[not instantly, but at a future time]
That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script. Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script. He did not.
What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth? And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?
Paul is as clear as a bell about this:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5
I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 07:56:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 12:52:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:12:37 PM
Quotealso problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
I don't know what you mean by that.
Quote from: MollyI think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?
The new covenant is a will. It goes into effect the minute someone dies.
That is how a will works.
The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.
So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?
The New Testament is a will. It goes into effect as soon as the testator dies.
If you want to know what is in the will, read it. But, whether you read it or not, it still goes into effect when the testator dies.
For once try to read and more importantly understand what I write/ask. :sigh:
I know you feel cornered (rightfully), but twisting my questions isn't gonna fool me.
When I write a will I do so when I'm alive. I don't continue after I died.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 08:08:43 PM
Quote from: Micah[not instantly, but at a future time]
That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script. Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script. He did not.
What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth? And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?
Paul is as clear as a bell about this:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5
I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."
Neither do I see Paul writing "present with the Lord
instantly after death
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 08:08:43 PM
Quote from: Micah[not instantly, but at a future time]
That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script. Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script. He did not.
What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth? And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?
Paul is as clear as a bell about this:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5
I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."
Neither do I see Paul writing "present with the Lord instantly after death
He says to live is Christ, to die is gain--it only gets better.
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two,
having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Phil1
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 08:09:10 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 07:56:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 12:52:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 12:12:37 PM
Quotealso problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant?
I don't know what you mean by that.
Quote from: MollyI think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?
The new covenant is a will. It goes into effect the minute someone dies.
That is how a will works.
The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.
So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?
The New Testament is a will. It goes into effect as soon as the testator dies.
If you want to know what is in the will, read it. But, whether you read it or not, it still goes into effect when the testator dies.
For once try to read and more importantly understand what I write/ask. :sigh:
I know you feel cornered (rightfully), but twisting my questions isn't gonna fool me.
When I write a will I do so when I'm alive. I don't continue after I died.
I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions." I honestly do not understand what you are saying. Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead? Give me an example of that. Jesus is the executor of the will. The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says. Then he distributes the assets according to the will.
And as far as writing a will goes,
Jesus did not personally write any of the old or new testaments
Besides, 3 days after he died he was alive again.
Yet, he was also "alive" while dead based on his preaching to
the peeps that had died before or during the flood in the first aeon or age.
TESTAMENT
A person's will, esp. the part relating to personal property.
HEIR
A person legally entitled to the property or rank of another on that person's death.
one who acquires property upon the death of another, based on the rules of descent and distribution, namely, being the child, descendant or other closest relative of the dear departed. It also has come to mean anyone who "takes" (receives something) by the terms of the will. An heir cannot be determined until the moment of death of the person leaving the property, since a supposed beneficiary (heir apparent) might die first.
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. Rom 8:17
Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
1 Peter 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you,
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
--Gal 4
Believe it, Hotshot!
Paul was so stunned when he learned who Jesus was and the terms of the will, that he was blinded for three days and did not eat or drink. And, he would have stayed that way had God not sent Ananias to heal him.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
--Acts 9
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 08:24:13 PM
I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions." I honestly do not understand what you are saying. Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead? Give me an example of that. Jesus is the executor of the will. The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says. Then he distributes the assets according to the will.
Let's take Mark as an example. (Mark 15:37) And having given out a great voice, Jesus expired.
What about Mark 15:38 - 16:20?
Still a last will of someone?
Of course I can ask the same about Luke, Romans, etc
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 14, 2012, 09:13:07 PM
And as far as writing a will goes,
Jesus did not personally write any of the old or new testaments
True. When I wrote "write" it was perhaps better to say "taught/said" something that was written down at a later time.
QuoteBesides, 3 days after he died he was alive again.
Yet, he was also "alive" while dead based on his preaching to
the peeps that had died before or during the flood in the first aeon or age.
That's the whole discussion ded. I see no proof for that assumption.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2012, 08:40:55 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 08:24:13 PM
I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions." I honestly do not understand what you are saying. Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead? Give me an example of that. Jesus is the executor of the will. The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says. Then he distributes the assets according to the will.
Let's take Mark as an example. (Mark 15:37) And having given out a great voice, Jesus expired.
What about Mark 15:38 - 16:20?
Still a last will of someone?
Of course I can ask the same about Luke, Romans, etc
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have already answered you in the above posts. Obviously the will was written [if not written down] before Jesus died. Or do you think Paul made that all up? Paul calls it a 'mystery'--that is, for eyes only, and thus, I would presume not for everyone to know. I can't continue a discussion that I don't understand.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 08:19:38 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2012, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 08:08:43 PM
Quote from: Micah[not instantly, but at a future time]
That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script. Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script. He did not.
What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth? And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?
Paul is as clear as a bell about this:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5
I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."
Neither do I see Paul writing "present with the Lord instantly after death
He says to live is Christ, to die is gain--it only gets better.
And again you try to avoid my question.
I didn't say it gets better, worse or equally bad/good. I didn't make such a statement.
My only question is where exactly in the following verse the answer to the thread topic is given? Where does it say people that are dead are really dead, or do a soul sleep, or immediately start enjoying heaven?
Quote8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5
Micah wrote:
Quote[not instantly, but at a future time]
You answered his statement with:
QuoteThat might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script. Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script. He did not.
I agree with you that Paul did not add the words "but not instantly" in that verse. And yes, I fully believe he had the ability to do so if needed.
But my answer to you is: Neither did Paul add the word instantly to that verse.
Simple example.
- I'm going to buy Bible X because it's a quality translation. Am I going to buy it right now? Am I saving money for it and buy it in 5 months?
I only made 2 statements. I stated I'm going to buy Bible X. I also stated it's a quality translation. But I didn't state when exactly I'll buy it.
So my problem with both your and Micah's statement is that thought/words/interpretations are added which are not in the verse. Yes, that leaves many open ends. Yes it would be very handy if Paul had added (but not) instantly. But he didn't and that's why we (yes that includes me too) are not allowed to add our own time delimiters.
What of course is totally ok is pointing to another verse that does say (not) instantly.
As I wrote many open ends. It's human to try to complete the story by completing the open ends. But imo that's exactly how doctrines are made.
Paul didn't write ABC so obviously he means XYZ.
Maybe Paul meant ABC. Perhaps OPQ. Or perhaps he didn't have a clue because the HS didn't inspire him to know. Perhaps he fully knew and wrote a dozen verses on the timing elsewhere.
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2012, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2012, 08:40:55 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 08:24:13 PM
I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions." I honestly do not understand what you are saying. Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead? Give me an example of that. Jesus is the executor of the will. The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says. Then he distributes the assets according to the will.
Let's take Mark as an example. (Mark 15:37) And having given out a great voice, Jesus expired.
What about Mark 15:38 - 16:20?
Still a last will of someone?
Of course I can ask the same about Luke, Romans, etc
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have already answered you in the above posts. Obviously the will was written [if not written down] before Jesus died. Or do you think Paul made that all up? Paul calls it a 'mystery'--that is, for eyes only, and thus, I would presume not for everyone to know. I can't continue a discussion that I don't understand.
Ok even easier. Is the Book of Revelation the last will of Jesus?
Quote from: wwAs I wrote many open ends. It's human to try to complete the story by completing the open ends. But imo that's exactly how doctrines are made.
Paul didn't write ABC so obviously he means XYZ.
Maybe Paul meant ABC. Perhaps OPQ. Or perhaps he didn't have a clue because the HS didn't inspire him to know. Perhaps he fully knew and wrote a dozen verses on the timing elsewhere.
or Maybe Paul meant what he said.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This is a good verse from Philippians 1 also; "If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
A lot of saintly OT people desired to be with God but it seems to me they had to wait until the resurrections in Revelation.
This is not talking about resurrection. It's talking about eternal life.